An Unfiltered Look at Thirteen

I'm Dr. Becky and this is good inside. So assuming you're not driving a car right now, I'm going to ask you to close your eyes as we start this and remember what you were like at age 13. You might have been in eighth grade, probably the last year of middle school. Who was your best friend? What song did you play 10,000 times and. And where did you go to feel free?

I used to not be able to be dropped off. Like I had to be like monitored, but being dropped off and like left there with like my own money and like being able to just walk around and have those barracudes set so I know like what to do and what not to do.

That feeling of freedom I had at 13 when I got dropped off with my friends at home, a shopping mall, to walk around for hours unchaperoned isn't that far off from the three young women whose lives were being chronicled for a piece in the New York times called being 13. Joining me is the former 13, now 14 year old named London, her mom Dakita, and journalist Jessica Bennett for a conversation about what being 13 feels like now. We'll be back right after this.

Jessica, you know what I realized? I would like you to introduce me to Dakita and London. Can you give a little background on you, your relationship with them, on them, maybe facilitate this introduction?

Yeah, for sure. So when we were thinking about wanting to do this project, we put out this call where anyone could submit and say, Basically I'm a 13 year old and I would be comfortable letting a reporter inside my life and inside my phone. And you can imagine that that can feel pretty intrusive and intimate. And so we got hundreds of submissions and London's was one of them. And we just in particular felt like she was really real. London's gonna think this is all cringe that I'm saying this, but it just felt like London, your responses to the questions were like kind of just telling it how it was like you weren't beating around the bush. You were pretty open, you talked about conflicts, you were really honest about how sometimes it was hard and people don't really get what it's like to be a teenager. And then Dakita is obviously amazing, but she is also very open and I have known her work from her autism blog and community that she runs. And I think, I mean clearly daughter gets it from mother because you too are like real talk, really willing to get into it, be open, like that's sort of your brand and how you live your life. And so the two of you together, opening up your lives to me, it was amazing that you were willing to let me into some of these really intimate moments that at times could be uncomfortable, I think. Yeah.

Okay. There's so many different questions I have, but, Jessica, just staying with you for a minute or two. What did you want to write about? Like, what were you looking for?

I mean, I am always fascinated with teenagers. Like, I, like, hear what they're up to. I feel like they create the slang and the language that we all try to mimic, even if sometimes they're copying the trends that we created in the 90s. Sorry, London. They are the ones making it cool again. And I think that they lead trends in a lot of ways. So I'm always fascinated by teenagers and I. I think my teen years are the age that I can most distinctly remember. And it's weird, as someone now in her early 40s, that I can really picture what I felt like at age 13 and age 14. And so we started this project wanting to know what it was like to be 13 at a time when you are legally allowed to join social media, but also at the same time that first, for girls in particular, self confidence and self esteem tends to really plummet when compared to their male peers. And so for me, as someone who's covered gender issues and women's issues for a long time and issues of girls, I wanted to really try to understand what that intersection could look like in the day to day.

Anything surprise you while you were working on it? Anything you uncovered?

I mean, to some degree, I think, like, where you started this conversation, the feeling of freedom. Like, there are a lot of similarities between how we experienced girlhood and teen years with what's happening today. Like finding your identity, figuring out who you are, figuring out your place in the social hierarchy and like, who your friends are and who you can trust and what your interests are. Like, all of those things, I think are really similar now as they were then. And doing all of this at the same time that your hormones are raging, you're going through puberty, like your body's changing, your brain is changing, and it creates this kind of heightened sensitivity to all things. But what's different today, of course, is that all of this is happening with a phone and with a potential audience at all times. So I don't know that anything super surprised me, but I really felt like it was so valuable seeing it through the eyes of the girls.

Yeah, okay, London, we're Talking about being 13 and friendships and like, we're all remembering that part of our 13 year old year.

Right.

Being able to go out with your friends apart from your parents, you and your friends. London, when you say, hey, let's hang out, like what does that mean? What will probably happen?

Right.

I'm guessing it's not going to the mall like I did. Maybe it is.

We usually, if it's hang out, just hang out. Usually it's like you go over to the house and you just scroll on TikTok, not speaking to each other and then you laugh every like maybe 10 minutes and show each other TikTok. And I do that on the phone too. Like we'll just be sitting there in silence on TikTok and then we'll like see, like, look at what I sent you. It's quiet, but it's just like having the company there is what makes it fun.

Yeah.

What do you feel like adults don't understand about kind of social media or kids and social media?

I think maybe the importance of it because it doesn't seem like it's anything important about it. But I have actually learned a lot. Maybe it's a term don't believe, I think on the Internet, but there's a lot that I've learned from like tick tock and stuff. And it's not always something like major, but it's actually important. Like things to do when you're being followed or something like that. There's things that I've learned on tick tock that I probably wouldn't have known about if I wasn't on the platform.

And he said it's really important. So like it's important for learning. But it also sounds like a really interwoven part of your social life. I don't know, like, what would happen? Does this happen? You're sitting with friends and someone's like.

My parents don't let me go on TikTok.

And like, you know, are they just kind of watching you or are you like, yeah, Becky, that doesn't even happen. All my friends are on it. Like, like, what would that be like.

Like if one of my friends didn't have TikTok?

Yeah.

That was me two weeks ago because I have my phone taken away a week ago. So at lunch, I hadn't been on TikTok for two whole weeks and I was at lunch and I would just watch TikTok on my friend's phone. Like I'd be over the shoulder watching TikTok or we'll just be talking and it's really like, it's kind of cool to me though. Because I saw how my things, like my feed and my for you page is way different from theirs. And it's like, mine was more so obviously girly stuff. And then they're like, for you, feed was like, sports and, like, stuff that I normally wouldn't be watching.

And so if someone isn't on, you feel like they might just. Are they missing out? I guess that's my question. Like, are they missing out on what people end up talking about at lunch or kind of what people are laughing about? I just think about myself walking around the mall. I don't remember exactly what I'd be talking to my friends about, but we were sharing a story. Like, that's what friends do. Like, you share in a journey or you're talking about a topic together. You're like, hey, did you see this movie? Oh, yeah, I saw that movie. And then you're talking about that movie. And so I'm just wondering, teenagers who, you know, aren't on social media, what is that like, socially?

Right. Cause I think I can speak for.

Some parents, and there's this struggle. This is not a push to say all kids should be on social media for this reason, but there's this struggle parents have, okay, well, do I want my kid to be on it?

What would make that safe and right?

On the other hand, oh, is my kid gonna feel left out? Are they gonna not be part of the conversation? It's so important at 13, right. We were saying to feel part of a social life, so. So I'm just curious from your perspective, what kind of data you have, London.

It's definitely something they're going to miss out on, but I could live without it, so they probably can, too. And a lot of the conversations now, like, depending on what grade you're in, like, if you're actually 13, you're missing out a lot, but if you're younger, then not much, but the conversations and most definitely the jokes. Because, like, there's these sounds on TikTok that, like, you'll hear. And then, like, of course, you're like, repeat it because it's funny. And then you're just standing there like, what? It's like, some people may not get the joke because they're not on TikTok. So, like, if you're missing out on that, then you're gonna be missing out on a lot more than just, like, the conversation.

Yeah.

And the dances, too, right?

Yeah.

Yeah. Takeda, what were some of your initial worries when London joined TikTok and have those worries kind of, you know, proven to be true. Are you worried about different things now? Are you just not worried? You worried more?

Oh, I'm definitely worried still. That's still a thing. But my initial worry was mental health. We take time and energy into London's mental health and making sure that she has great emotional intelligence and that she's good. Like, I don't care about everything else as long as she's good. That's what matters. So in the beginning I just wanted to make sure that she understood what the purpose of social media was and that she understood that if there was something that was harming her mentally, that didn't make her feel good, that made her feel bad about herself that she did not follow. Because it's all about the algorithm, it's all about whatever you like you're going to see more of. And so I was very concerned about that and the fact that I can't hover and watch her, you know, what she consumes. Second was, you know, London's a gorgeous girl, she's very smart, she's very funny. And I just, my fear was like, dirty older people trying to get in her DMs and like sending pictures and stuff like that. But we have a very open relationship and from the jump I told her, like, if you receive any dick pics, literally, you need to let me know, like, those are inappropriate. That shouldn't be happening. The other thing that concerned me was just the. I didn't want her to be influenced and feel like she's not pretty because these girls on social media with their filters and their, you know, all of the witchcraft that they do, to present themselves in a way. I wanted her to understand filters and like, you know, this isn't real, you know, this house that these people are in, that's like a rented house. Like, I, I felt like I had to really over explain things so she would know that TikTok is. And social media is like a veil to everything else. So that was what I was worried about before that did shift because her usage of TikTok is like, she's not posting even though she's able to post. And we have like a whole contract that we went through as far as her posting ability and things like that. She doesn't post often and when she does post, it's just like every now and then she shares a lot of videos with me that are educational. She sends me food, like people do TikTok meals. And half of the stuff that I cook these days are like from a TikTok that either she sent me Or I found on my own. So my worries right now are more so on the usage and being able to tell yourself I need to take a break. I've talked to London about her usage and you know, she said earlier that she could do without it. I was surprised to hear that, but that's another story. But I just really want to make sure that London is currently, that she's giving herself breaks and that she's managing that time on social media.

How do you actually manage that? Like is it, does it shut off? Like, I know there are these apps you can add that your kid just has a limit and it's done. Or you, I don't know, do you say please try to have an alarm go off after this many minutes or how does that actually work between the two of you?

There are apps like that. We have not utilized them yet currently. What we do is I let her manage it and I will check her sometimes I'll say, oh, you haven't put your phone down. You know, don't make me tell you to put it down. Make sure you manage that on your own. London knows that in the mornings she's not allowed to be on social media or on her phone in general when she's getting ready for school because things happen like this morning, missing the bus. We also have like when she's doing her homework she can't be on and when she's at school she can only be on at lunch. So we have our deal and if I feel that she's not able to manage that herself, then I will have to actually put the limitations on the phone that like shut the app off. But I don't think I ever have to do that because she's pretty level headed and she knows when it's going down that path where she needs to get her act together.

Dakita, I want to ask you one more question just coming up now. You know the way you're talking about social media and managing it is like it really does feel from the place of number one, respecting London, feeling like she's a good kid who wants to make good decisions. Like you guys are, you guys are a team against the problems social media could bring, right? Versus you're on one team and London is on the other team, which can happen a lot. I think when you're parenting teens, you like, forget, wait, we're actually on the same team. Is that similar to the ways in which you would approach things with her and rules and boundaries? I'm just curious, is that consistent with when she was a toddler or when she was in elementary school and you were just approaching rules or boundaries about totally different things.

That's consistent with us. I say that I like to break generational things. You know, I tell London all the time you can always ask me questions. If I say you can't do something, you can ask me why, as long as it's respectable, as long as you are coming to me with a level head and with common sense, we can always have a conversation. I'm never going to say because I said so, like that's, I'm not parenting like that when it comes to things. London, she looks at me as a strict parent and so she will tell me like my other friends can do these things and my other friends can do those things. But what I always share with her is that you're not going to see this now, but the reason why you can't is because abc, I also tell her that you have to have milestones to look ahead to, to look forward to. London has a lot of 13 year old and 14 year old friends who are doing things that I wasn't even doing when I was 16. And she understands like she still has stuff to look forward to. There are still things that she's able to say. When I turn this age or that age, I can have a boyfriend, I can wear a full face of makeup if I want, I can, I can stay on the phone all night. You know, these are things she can look forward to. But I've always, the way I raised London, it was always on, hey, this is what we're going to do. This is the reason behind it and you always have a say in the matter, no matter what.

London, does that feel true to you in terms of it sounds like, you know, yeah, what is, I want to know the words underneath that face.

I mean, yeah, but like no, because there's some cases where it's like I don't feel like that just because like my friends, some of them do do a lot of things that like are very, not 15, 14 year old activities.

Like, like what?

Like going to places that are not meant to for 14 and 15 year.

Olds, like bars.

Like lounge restaurants. So like those type of things are just, that's one thing but like you know, the whole social media and like on the phone, that stuff, I'm just, I don't know, I kind of feel differently about it just because like sometimes when my friends will do things like I will always look at the bigger picture. But sometimes if I feel like.

The.

Bigger picture is just not Then I'll probably say something because sometimes if it's like an example, be like, maybe going somewhere or like some of my friends or like all of my friends, basically, they can, like, go places they obviously have to ask, but, like, not much of, like, how much I have to and, like, do. And so that situation, I kind of feel is very different. And that's what I'm complaining about.

Mm.

Is there a part of you? I'm just curious and answer totally honestly because it's probably going to be an eye roll and a no, but, like, is there a part of you, London, that with those extra maybe steps you have to take or regulations, I know a party is like, that's annoying. I just want to do more like my friends. Is there a part of you, if it's small, that feels, I don't know, like, cared for or protected, even if you're also annoyed or like, no, not really. It's just annoying.

Yes and no. It's too. I feel protected, but not just protected, over protected.

So it's like Britney Spears song, like.

Sooner or later I'm gonna have to be set free. And it's like, I'm gonna have to deal with it later on. So if I'm experiencing it young, I won't have. I already know, like, if something's wrong or like when I have to deal with it later, I already know what to do because I already dealt with it now instead of all at once. When I have to go, like into the real world, well, that's like a real thing, but like the real world. When I have to actually go there, I'm actually going to know what is like, wrong from right and know how to deal with it. Not just this is wrong, this is right. And you're going to have to deal with it when you do or when you're allowed to. So it's like, that's the part. It's just like maybe too over, like the.

Can I say something real quick?

Yeah, yeah.

So I will say that as an observer, as a fly on the wall of this mother daughter duo for the last year, I do think that London has learned some really important skills due to her mother's strictness, such as negotiation. I don't know if we described here the way that London convinced her mom that she should be allowed on TikTok, but involved a very researched and well thought out and somewhat elaborate case, like she would make in front of a judge for all the reasons why she was gonna do it in a way that was healthy, all the ways that Dakita could maintain sex some control while also giving London some independence and then turning those things into a point by point contract that they wrote out and both of them signed and then placed on, I believe, the refrigerator door. And then one hilarious thing that happened was as soon as the article came out and London turned 14, she said. What did she say, Takeda? She was like, actually, now that I'm 14, she was already negotiating for her next privileges.

Yeah, she's like, so Instagram. And I'm like, what? No, wait a minute. You just got on TikTok. What are you talking about? Oh, my gosh.

But it was pretty convincing, honestly. And I think, Dakita, you're not an easy person to convince, necessarily.

No, I was impressed. I'm gonna be honest with you. I was impressed because she knew what my concerns would be. And we were on vacation on the beach, and she's like. So I'm about, like. It was like a lawyer in a courtroom. And I'm like, who are you? Like, how are you? Where did you come up with this? But for the most part, when just to go back to London's point about being left out and not knowing what's going on and the trends on TikTok, I allowed London to actually have a ghost account on TikTok. And so she would know the dances and she would know what her friends was talking about, even if she wasn't allowed to post. Because I do feel like 13 is such an important age, and I didn't want her to be like, what's that joke you guys are saying? And what's this dance you're doing? She's very social. I didn't want her to miss out on that aspect. So when it was time to go, when she hit 13, I'm like, all right, the floodgates are open. Go ahead, you're up. But she was really convincing in her argument, so I couldn't deny that.

Well, I think that is, though, such an important part of the process instead of just yes or no, right. By having the teenager kind of take ownership of thinking, okay, what are the concerns? What are my parents concerns? We're in this together. We're on the same team. Okay, well, how would I speak to that? How would I explain that? What safeguards do I even suggest putting in place so we're both more comfortable now? Instead of kind of quote, rules being dictated to a teenager, the teenager is authoring those things themselves. It's a lot harder to resist rules when you've co authored those rules. And so I think that's it's such a powerful kind of approach to getting everyone on the same page.

Agreed.

London, I'm curious, you know, as we all started talking about when we were 13 and our friendships came up, I see the way social media lives. In your friendships, you kind of watch things together, you send things, dances, things like that. Has it had an impact on friendships? Like, do you feel like it in a positive way, in a sometimes negative way?

No.

Like there's never really been like social media drama that had to deal with like, me, but like my friends maybe, but it's never affected like my friends relationships and stuff because it's just not something where like you can throw shade on social media, of course, but like never something where it's really talking about someone. Because if they talk about someone, either they'll say it's in your face, they'll say over text or they'll say it to their friends and then your friends will tell you. So, like, none of my friendships have been affected by social media because we also just keep our business to ourselves because, like, we know how people can get. So I think that maybe other people, depending on how open they are with like their business to others, especially people that like to stir things up, that really will affect like your friendships and stuff.

Jessica, is that what you found in your research is like, similar to what London says or just kind of depends on the kid and the nature of their relationships?

Well, London, you read the other stories. I think London actually has done probably a better job than some of the other girls at keeping friend drama out of the phone. But if that's the way you're communicating, I mean, it's impossible. We have adult friend drama that plays out over our phones. And there are times when I've said things over text message that I wouldn't feel comfortable saying to someone's face. But I don't know. I think that a couple of the other girls really had a lot of stuff play out over the phone or stuff that played out in real life that then transferred onto the phone. But then once it's in digital form, it's like you can screenshot. That screenshot can be posted to a different platform. That different platform can then be screenshotted and taken out of context. Something mean that somebody says to. If it were to your face, you'd be hurt, but maybe you could brush it off. Maybe a few days later it would feel less potent. But when you've got a receipt for it and you can look back on that receipt and keep ruminating over feels pretty bad. So I do think. And it's not just teens, but teens are going through it and feeling all of the feelings that it can feel enhanced and be almost supersized when some of it's playing out digitally.

Yeah. Takeda, what have you seen? Is that consistent?

Yes, absolutely. But I wanted to add something that London went through that, you know, she's really good about the keeping the drama at bay in general, across the board with her friendships. And she shares a lot with me. And I'll say, like, oh, don't go saying that to anybody else, because people are gonna talk and then it's gonna get back, you know, so I'll kind of give little reminders along the way. But the only issue with social media that impacted London was somebody. She was on FaceTime with someone and they took a. Did a screen record or took a screenshot and it was. London's hair wasn't done. You know, she had just woke up. She's on FaceTime with this friend. They're having a regular conversation. And that person took that. And I don't know if they posted it or sent it to a bunch of friends, but there's this photo of London or the screen grab of London going around, you know the one, the crusty photo, as she calls it. And she's like, I cannot believe this crusty photo's fooling around. And I said, why do y' all screen record each other? Like these, these teens While they're on FaceTime, they screen record portions of the conversation. And I'm like, you don't need that. Like, that can do nothing good. There's nothing good that comes from that. So that's like the most that I've seen come from anything. But as far as her. Her peers are concerned, she's right. Like, she doesn't. There's not a lot of phone drama. Everything is in person. It's something that's done in person. So you don't see that on social media.

Yeah, we're talking about being 13. London, you're no longer 13, is that right?

Yeah, I'm 14 now.

So you're 14, you started high school. Is that different? Does that feel really different from, quote, middle school life? Does it feel like just an extension of the same thing I know we talked about for all of us, 13 year old middle school feels like this sudden start to independence. You've settled into that a little bit more. 14 in high school, what's. What's different?

It is very different from middle school. Your classes matter a Lot more. Like the work is different, the people are different. Not many people care as much as in ninth grade because it was such a small, like bunch of people. So everyone was in everyone's business. Like if you saw someone walking with each other, like, oh my gosh, are they dating? Like it'll be something big. But now everyone's just to themselves. No one really cares about things because there's a lot of different looking people in high school, so no one cares. Everyone's to theirselves and drama is just always going to be there though.

All right, Jessica. I feel like I'm listening to London speak London and Dakita. Like, what strikes me is no one's figured out this, you know, time period. No one has. Like the code for this is exactly how you manage social media. This is exactly how you manage those 13, 14 year old years. The two of you have so many amazing elements. You do, the openness, the collaboration. I think it sounds like there was a history of that before you entered this stage, which is really, really helpful too. I'm curious, Jessica. I'm guessing you've seen a range of things like what are you feel like the biggest kind of challenges that maybe not London even specifically, but that you do see kind of, you know, 13, 14 year old girls facing.

I mean, I think everything feels like the biggest thing ever to have ever happened, you know, so it's like an argument with a friend that might blow over in a couple of weeks and is very typical of teen years. Feels like it is everything and a grade that you can improve upon. But it comes to your phone via a series of push notifications, which is something that I did not know before recording this story was a thing that happened. Every single little quiz gets pushed to your phone as a notification. So you're sitting there trying to do your homework and then you see that, oh, actually your science grade has gone down a couple of percentage points. That would make me absolutely anxious. So that can feel like everything. And I think feelings are big and that is totally normal. That is literally what your brain is doing at this age. And what the researchers and the neuroscientists will tell you is that your brain's not going to be developed. The part of your brain that deals in impulse control and decision making, that's going to take a decade more to be fully developed. So it absolutely makes sense that if you're a teenager and your hormones are raging and you're on social media and your brain is not equipped to deal with some of the strength of the feelings you're experiencing when your anxiety is rising and you might be feeling depressed, it's a lot. And so I guess what I will say is that each of the parents in this project dealt in different ways and were sort of fumbling their way through trying to figure it out. But I do think that the openness that Takeda and London have, where they can talk about what they're seeing, yeah, there is misinformation, there is curated filters that are totally fake in order to make you feel bad about yourself. There is ways that the algorithm targets you in a negative way. We do know that the more time kids spend on social media, the worse they often tend to feel about themselves. So that doesn't mean don't look at it ever. But talking openly about what you see, what you see there, I think seems like it's working for y' all anyway.

All right, London, I'm going to end with you. Let's say you have a 13 year old daughter right now. Would you let her go on social media and if you could only offer her 1, 2, 3 pieces of advice for how to navigate it, what would they be?

Yes. And I would tell her probably like the one that I got, don't believe everything you see. And the second one would probably, we would make agreements and stuff. But telling her that it's okay to be like not feeling the best. Like if you're in bed and you just don't look the best and then you see someone who's like all dressed up and stuff, it's okay to not feel like as confident in your, in yourself as you would want to be. But just don't like let it really get to you because you can always get up and get ready. And the last one would probably just, I don't know, a lot of them just send me videos. I wouldn't be too like harsh about it just to see like, because if it's me being harsh and she like just got it, then it's gonna like, she's not gonna want to tell me anything.

Yeah.

So I would let her do her. And then if, since I'm like backing off, maybe I'll ask her questions like, like what are you looking at on social media? Of course. And if she tells me, then we can go from there, but let her do her. And then if something comes up and she tells me about it, then that would just expand the relationship more because like she's coming to me. So that I, I think that that.

Piece of sharing videos with your parents, like letting your parents be a part of it and not to lecture you. Just like have a sense of your world. I think that is so important.

Thanks for listening. To share a story or ask me a question, go to good inside.com/podcast. You could also write me at podcastoodinside.com parenting is the hardest and most important job in the world and parents deserve resources and support so they feel empowered, confident and connected. I'm so excited to share Good Inside Membership, the first platform that brings together content and experts you trust with a global community of like valued parents. It's totally game changing. Good inside with Dr. Becky is produced by Jesse Baker and Eric Newsem at Magnificent Noise. Our production staff includes Sabrina Farhee, Julia Natt and Kristen Muller. I would also like to thank Erica Belsky, Mary Panico and the rest of the Good Inside team. And one last thing before I let you go. Let's end by placing our hands on our hearts and reminding ourselves. Even as I struggle and even as I have a hard time on the outside, I remain Good Inside.

Sa.