Bedtime Battles

I'm Dr. Becky and this is good inside.

It's stressful. I don't like bedtime, it's not fun. And what I want most is just for them to go to sleep so I can rest. I need that break and it just seems never ending. So a lot of anxiety is around that time of day.

We'll be right back.

Foreign.

I'm Dr. Becky and this is good inside. I'm a clinical psychologist, I'm a mom of three and I'm on a mission to rethink the way we raise our children. I recently spoke to a mom of two young kids and she was struggling with some things that I think a lot of us parents can relate to. The struggle of double bedtime with two little kids, the struggle of being a working inside the home parent and the struggle of not advocating for her needs in her partnership. Let's listen.

We recently moved and the girls are sharing a room and the biggest struggle we have with our 4 year old is when she doesn't want to go to bed or essentially doesn't want to do what we're asking her to do and she just says no. And at some point there's just no convincing her other than to basically force her in some way. And my husband tends to fall back on a trick of just saying okay, then I'm because we, we lay with her until she falls asleep and so he tends to fall back on okay, then I'm leaving and he leaves, leaves the room and closes the door and she gets upset. And I have also done this in the past. I try very hard not to because I don't like it. It makes it feel like if you don't do what I say, I leave you. And I don't like the message that is sending. But there is a point where we don't know what to do and how to get her to do what she needs to do, which is go to sleep. She doesn't do it very often. It's not like an every week situation. It's probably once or twice a month.

So let's start with that. Maybe the baseline. So what does bedtime in your house look like on a good night? On a night that you're like woo, that one went, you know, pretty well.

I would say on a good night we get our pajamas on, brush our teeth, read a book or two and I usually will hold my 14 month old standing up, kind of rocking, getting her to fall asleep and we'll let my four year old listen to a book on my phone, an audio book Usually just like a short seven minutes. And hopefully by that time the baby has fallen asleep, I can put her in the crib and then I lay with my 4 year old until she falls asleep. And my hope is that that doesn't take long, you know, maybe 10, 15 minutes.

And as you're hearing yourself recount this, what's the feeling? What, what comes up for you?

I mean, definitely anxiety. It's stressful.

And you know, for me, I remember anxiety would turn into dread. I was like, oh, like nighttime, especially if I was alone and my husband wasn't home and, you know, I'd had a long day. And I do feel like there's this cruel irony at night where all a parent wants to do is be done caretaking. You're like, I have been in the parent part of me for 12 hours, 14 hours, 10 hours, whatever that day has been. And the parenting caregiving part of me has taken over most of my body. And there are other parts. The part that wants to sit on the couch and watch TV or read a book and just not have someone touch me and not have anyone need anything from me. Those parts are just like waiting to come out at night. And the irony is, I think at night our kids want nothing more than additional time with us. And nobody's wrong. It's not wrong to want to be done caregiving. It's not wrong for a kid to want a parent. It's just like a really, really unfortunate mismatch, I find. So let's just start with that. Like, you're not alone for going into bedtime being like, this kind of stinks. I just want this time to be as short as possible. And then when our kids don't in some ways, like comply, it's, it's triggering. So, okay, so what does one of those nights look like where you're like, yeah, this is not going according to plan. What is, what is a bedtime battle night like in your house?

Well, it just happened actually, a couple nights ago, I think I had gotten the baby asleep and it was time for my 4 year old to fall asleep. And she was just tossing about and talking and not whispering, being loud and talking to herself, talking to me, saying things. And it's just like, I need you to whisper. Let's stop talking. It's time for bed. Please stop talking. And she was just not having it. And she's like, no, I don't want to, I don't want to go to sleep. I'm not tired. I can't fall asleep. I can't fall asleep kicking and being loud. And eventually she woke up her sister.

And you are. I'll give you, like a menu and, you know, check as many as apply. Are you sad? Are you frustrated? Are you feeling helpless? Are you angry? Are you fast forwarding to the future? Are you in a spiral of nothing today went the way I wanted it to. You know which of those resonate?

I'm frustrated, I'm angry. I'm just. Just over it. Very over it. At that point, especially once she wakes up her sister, I'm just like, now. Now everything starts over. Yeah.

And so it seems like the ending point in the kind of pathway we don't want to go down is now she woke up her sister. Okay. Now it's like back to square one. Okay. The pieces tell me if this is right. Is like, oh, no, we're on this pathway. Is like she starts to be loud or she starts to kick or what's. I think often as parents, we. We think about, how can I act differently in that moment where the whole thing is about to overflow rather than where can I notice that we're, like, starting to fill up this picture that I don't wanna fill up. What's the first part of this road? So what. What are the first signs that this night is not gonna be smooth?

It's probably just not wanting to put on her pajamas in the first place. Not wanting to start the bedtime situation, wanting to play or watch tv Often now she'll say, I want to play. I want to play when it's time for bed. And it's like, well, you had your time to play.

Yeah.

So I think it's. That is usually when I notice she's like, no, no, I don't want to go to bed. And then I'll be like, okay, well, you have five more minutes to play and then we're going to get ready. And then she usually does it after that, after I give her that time. But then once it's time to move into the room and be quiet, that's when, you know, she really struggles.

Okay, so a couple ideas right then and there. Right. So again, going back to that baseline kind of gap in nighttime realities, the gap between our reality of, like, I just kind of want to be done parenting and our kids reality is I want more time with my parent. Those really are very, very different kind of planets to be on. So if you picture yourself on one planet, the planet of I want to be done caregiving right now, and your daughter is on the planet of I want More time with my parent. Right now, those planets are, you know, a little bit far apart. And anytime we're far apart with a kid or a partner or a colleague on a different planet, most of us have the instinct to lead with convincing that person to come to our planet. I do this right. So my kid's like, I want more time. And I'm like, it's bedtime. I want more time. You're gonna be tired tomorrow. I want more time. Oh, you already had five minutes. And all of those, visually, Emily, are kind of a way of saying, like, no, no, no, no. Like, come off your planet and come to my planet. Does that visual make sense?

Yes.

And the irony, again, is the more anybody in our life convinces us why our planet, like, isn't so right and their planet is more right. If you're like me, you're like, no, no. I'm like, really gonna stay on my planet now? Because I now need to prove my point. And so what makes someone else on a different planet come to our planet ironically or be more likely to, is the process of bridge building from our planet to theirs. And there's just an inconvenient truth that as a parent or actually anyone who's just interested in being effective in a relationship and kind of set of being right is we have to build that bridge to theirs. But if you imagine that, Emily, if I build a bridge from my planet of, can I just be done parenting to my kid's planet of, I want more time awake now I have a bridge for my kid to walk over with me back to my planet of. It really is bedtime. So let's make that another level, kind of more concrete. Oh, I want more time to play. Oh, you wish you could stay up later. Or going to bed is a little tricky, right? You wish you could have more time with mom. Hmm. You're not so sure you want to go to bed right now. All of those statements. And I think the tone matters too, which is why I always like to model things, because I know when I say to my kids, like, okay, you really want to stay up later, it does not build any type of bridge. Right. They just feel kind of mocked or more alone. Yeah. But the combination of kind of. Yeah. Validating words and. And maybe even more so, like a validating tone which just says to someone like, you're real. I get you. You're not ridiculous. You have something very true happening for you. And I understand really builds a bridge. And at night, we really do ask kids to do something they don't want to do. Most kids do not want to go to bed and end their day. Most kids do not want to spend 10 to 12 hours away from their parent in the dark. They just don't want to do that. And so leading with validation in the beginning, and I have some other ideas too, is one kind of, in some ways, simple shift that I actually think is gonna have a bigger payout than you might imagine. So tell me, what would that be like for you? Like, maybe let's walk through a moment and even practice. Like, if I'm your daughter, right? And I say, no, I don't Wanna put my PJs on. No PJs. No. No. What? Might be something a little different to say back to me that builds that bridge.

Something like, I hear you. You don't Wanna put your PJs on. You wanna keep your other clothes on.

Great. And just pause, right? Sometimes we work really hard. That's it, right? And sometimes the simplest thing is when you don't know is like, what if I just said back with an actual understanding look and tone, the exact same thing. I do that cheat all the time. And I'm just like, too tired to come up with something more deep. Because, like, I don't want to put PJs on. I'll just be like, oh, you don't want to put PJs on, huh? Like, maybe I'll add a huh at the end to get, like, really fancy. But that's it, right? And we often do see our kids soften in that moment and in that softening. To me, what I always imagine is, oh, now I have an alliance. And also we get out of emergency mode. Cause if you're like me, when your kid protests, you kind of go into like, oh, no, like, everything's awful and I need to make this happen even more quickly. It has to happen now. And then there's another irony that now I'm just pouring in my own frustration and urgency into my child. I'm actually lengthening bedtime for myself by trying to shorten it. Does that. Does that ever happen in your house?

Oh, yeah, for sure.

And so I always think alongside any strategy we come up with for our kid, and we kind of come up with that, okay, what if I start? As soon as she resists bedtime, I'm just going to lead with validation. And if I don't know what to say, I'm literally going to say, oh, you, and then just kind of repeat what she says and then say, huh at the end. That's the whole thing. But alongside any strategy for our kid. I really think as a parent, we need a strategy for ourselves. And I think this is what a lot of us miss when we're struggling with our kid. Because we're like, okay, I know what I want to say. I know what I want to say. But then the moment comes, you're like, I totally didn't say that. I said basically the opposite. I said, you have to go to bed right now. And then we go into like, what's wrong with me? Why can't I be the parent I want to be? And it's not because we need to memorize that script again. It's probably because our body needed some type of validation in order to show up in that sense, softer, more connected, or even more boundaried way to our kid. And so I can share with you what I say when I have bedtime stalling to myself. I just put my hand on my heart and I always say, becky, this is not an emergency, I have time. Emily, this is not an emergency, I have time. Because it kind of speaks to what's going on in our body, which is like, there's a three alarm fire because our child doesn't want to put on their PJs. And don't get me wrong, it is so annoying. But we all know like it's, it's not an emergency. And if I react like it's an emergency, I'm just adding fuel to the fire that's already started. So I think that would be really helpful in the beginning stages.

Yeah, that makes total sense.

So let's move on to some other things. I am a huge fan actually of a really repeatable bedtime routine that's also accompanied by a visual kind of schedule of that routine you've come up with. So, for example, PJs, brushed teeth, one book, one song. I think, you know, at the end of the day, going to sleep. For a kid, it's really about separation. It's about separating from your parent. And I think a lot of us think about separation like daycare or school and we prepare our kids for separation. But if we think about it, a kid who separates at daycare or with a teacher at school separates during the daytime. So it's light, which is just inherently kind of a time that feels safer for us because we can see more. And they then get to go to an adult or two and a bunch of other kids who are probably playing. And it's probably for, I don't know, three hours, six hours maybe. Eight hours at night, our kids separate from us with no other adults in their room in the dark, and with no other children who are awake, ready to play. And so separation at night for sleep actually is a lot scarier than separation during the day. And so what that means is if separation at night is kind of full of unease, maybe some anxiety. Right? With our kids, then the more we add routine and familiarity and something kind of predictable where they can build mastery, our kids are gonna feel safer separating. Cause all of us feel safer doing something a little tricky when we can also access feelings of capability. And so having a schedule, to me, it's not just so you can say to your kid, oh, look, you know, this is our schedule, and we have to do it this way. It's actually almost a sneaky way of building in familiarity and mastery. And cap, right before a child has to do something, a little anxiety producing. And I'd also think for you, Emily, given your other child is sleeping in the room, how many of those things occur inside the room and outside the room? And I'd actually write that on the schedule. So maybe in your kitchen or in your hallway, there'd be PJs, and it would then kind of even have a location. Right? We put on PJs in the living room. So it's not to wake up your sister. Okay. And then after that, it's brush your teeth, and we brush your teeth in my bathroom. So, you know, again, we don't wake up your sister. Okay. Then we do one book or we do two books. Right? Whatever you say is the routine. And we can decide, because too often parents tell me around books. Yeah, well, they read three books, and then they want eight songs. Really? Prolonging that routine in some ways communicates to our kids that we're not ready for them to separate, that we're anxious. So we want the routine to be dependable and fairly consistent. So our kids feel our confidence in their ability to separate. And the one other thing about the routine that's really, really powerful is you can start practicing it during the day. Hey, let's play a game. Let's go through this routine during the day. Because it's kind of new, and maybe even we'll notice where it feels a little tricky. And then we can practice kind of taking a deep breath and getting to that next step together. And then you're really getting ahead of these moments where she might be loud or she might say no, and it gives you practice. Or also Emily and practicing that mantra, connecting to her and moving it along. I always feel like in the day we can get kind of some good reps of like a new muscle we're trying to build. So then when the nighttime comes and the stakes are higher, a kid is kind of building on a skill instead of building a brand new skill. I also, to add context to this conversation, I'd love to hear about your day and your sleep because I think how we're sleeping, how exhausted we are, our sleep patterns, kind of a day in our life, it really impacts, you know, what's going on with our kids as we approach separation. So give me a little insight into that.

Well, currently my sleep is non existent because I'm a stay at home mom and the 14 month old is home with me and she is having a lot of sleep struggles of her own and currently is sick. So there's a lot of no sleep happening for me. So that's obviously not helpful to the situation.

So let's just pause on that for a sec because that's so real. I mean that like you're saying I am completely depleted. Like so when I get to nighttime, it's not just that I want that time where I'm not caregiving, I also am completely exhausted. I haven't slept probably for days by that point. And so of course your tolerance for this, your need for time on your own is that much more extreme. So what happens at night? Are you up with your 14 month old?

Yeah, I'm up with her often. She often ends up in our bed to give some relief so I can sleep. She is very. She's just a needy baby who wants to be held and wants to be touched while she sleeps.

Walk me through like last night. So like just to get into the.

Specifics, last night I think that she woke up about an hour after I put her to bed and I went and got her and I had to hold her for a while and then I put her back. She woke up like 10 minutes later, held her for a while, I put her back, she woke up again. So then I decided, okay, you're sleeping in our bed for a little while because she is sick. So I know that's a big part of it currently. So fell asleep with her in our bed, she did not sleep well. She was tossing, turning, not feeling great. Then the four year old comes in, wants me to come in her bedroom for a little bit. So I take the 14 month old, go lay next to the 4 year.

Old and what's your husband doing?

Sleeping. He.

So tell me. Yeah, like tell me about that what's up with that?

Well, he's. He is working and I'm not. So I'm kind of in charge of the nighttime situation because of that.

You sound like you're working a lot to me.

I definitely agree with you on that.

Did you mean that he works outside the home and you work inside of the home?

Yes, exactly. He works outside the home and he's working a lot as of late.

Is that arrangement that the two of you have around nighttime given you work inside the home and he work outside the home, like, is that working for you?

I mean, not currently, because sleep is not going well with the 14 month old so much. It's not working great. But it's an understanding we have in the moment because of his work schedule.

Well, let's even just. I'm just curious, like, how this works today. So last night you were. Sounds like you were basically up all night with both of your kids and so going in tonight. Like, how does that work between you and your partner? Does he know that? Do you want a different arrangement tonight? Do you want more help? Do you need a certain amount of uninterrupted sleep?

I think he does know that.

Have you told him?

Told him that I need more help?

I don't know. Some version of. I really didn't sleep for more than 90 minutes at a time last night. Really, really tired and we can't do that again. So if our kids have trouble sleeping tonight, I'd like to come up with a different arrangement. Now that doesn't lead to me having that same uninterrupted, very little amount of sleep. I don't know. And that's just one example of being, you know.

No, I don't think I've said anything close to that.

What comes up for you? When I model that, it's very easy for me to model it. It's just me in a podcast studio. I'm not talking about my own partnership, but it is just for the sake of. I think we learned a lot about ourselves when we think about communicating super directly with someone about our needs, even if we don't do it. I think it's a really important experiment because we notice what's going on in our body. We notice how terrifying that might be or uncomfortable or different. And that's really worthy data just to have about ourselves.

I think that's something I definitely struggle with, is being like direct with my needs. Yeah, I think that's a struggle for me, for sure.

I mean, I know this is complicated and I know there are so Many things involved around who gets up at night, who works in the home, who works out of the home, who, you know, has this bulk of kind of childcare, who brings in a concrete paycheck and all types of value and meaning assigned to that. That's a large sociological kind of dynamic that unfortunately, I don't think we'll be able to fully unpack right now, although I think is clearly at play, I guess, just right now. What I hear from you, Emily, is I need to sleep. Like, I need to sleep tonight. I need that. It is like a basic body need. And the current setup I have, and this either spoken or unspoken agreement my partner and I have, you know, kind of contracted for at some point around the nighttime. It's really not working for me. And it's definitely not working for me today on the heels of not sleeping. And look, one of the things I've learned is we can't go from, you know, 0 to 100 in a way. Right? But I think as a start, I wonder what it would be like for you to just connect to yourself, even right now, and tell yourself, I deserve sleep, I deserve rest. No amount of, you know, working in the home versus out of the home versus no paycheck versus paycheck, none of that is related to my right and my deserving of this basic human need.

Right.

Well, what. What's coming up for you around this topic?

I. I think that's. That's all true. And I think it's just. It's just a hard thing to communicate and a hard thing to set boundaries around when you don't have the leg up of, like, having to be somewhere with people during the day, you know.

I hear you. I hear you. And look, we've all taken in this narrative around the value of parenting. It's kind of the thing that I'm most invested in changing. I swear, more than a script or more than sleep or more than tantrums, which I really care about helping parents with. I really care more generally about changing the narrative about this really important and difficult job that we have when we're a parent and the support and resources we deserve and the rights we have, you know, even the right to sleep. Right. You have a job where you have to be at a certain place and be with people, too. They're the people that you're raising, and it's the place that's inside your home. And I think it would be powerful for you to consider that. And the other thing I'll say before we end is, I think as we kind of come into a stage of speaking up for our needs when we haven't traditionally done that. Remembering that we need other adults cooperation but not approval is incredibly empowering. That I might need my partner to get up with my kid in the middle of the night, but I don't need him to approve of the fact that I am now sleeping. Like I don't need him to say, you are right, you deserve it. Right? If I know I deserve it, then I just need him to go be with our kid. I actually don't need him to kind of applaud me on the way or give his stamp of approval. And I think when we practice a little bit, noticing what we need, considering that maybe we have the right to have some of those needs met, at least more often when we're able to communicate that directly and then when we realize in the aftermath, especially if that's new, people will push back. But remembering I'm not looking for this other person's complete agreement or approval. I'm looking for a solution where I can get my needs met more often. That's a framework I'd love to kind of leave you with. And I really mean this, Emily. You are so not alone. You are not alone in not sleeping. You are not alone in how hard it is to manage parenting and sleep routines of toddlers and babies. And you are definitely not alone in kind of knowing on some level I know I need to sleep more. I know I need more help. And you're not alone in feeling uncomfortable and thinking about asking for those needs to be met. So thank you for sharing and I know so many people are nodding along with this and we will all be cheering you on. Thanks for listening. To share a story or ask me a question, go to goodinside.com podcast. You could also write me@podcastoodinside.com parenting is the hardest and most important job in the world and parents deserve resources and support so they feel empowered, confident and connected. I'm so excited to share Good Inside Membership, the first platform that brings together content and experts you trust with a global community of like valued parents. It's totally game changing. Good inside with Dr. Becky is produced by Jesse Baker and Eric Newsem at MagnificentNoyes. Our production staff includes Sabrina Farhee, Julia Natt and Kristen Muller. I would also like to thank Erica Belsky, Mary Panico, Ashley Valenzuela and the rest of the Good Inside team. And one last thing before I let you go, let's end by placing our hands on our hearts and reminding ourselves even as I struggle. And even as I have a hard time on the outside, I remain good inside.