Deep Dive: How Do We Survive Pandemic Parenting With Two Toddlers and Two High-Stress Jobs?

You're listening to good inside with Dr. Becky. I have so many ideas, strategies and scripts to share with you right after a word from our sponsor. Hi, I'm Dr. Becky and this is Good Inside. I'm a clinical psychologist and mom of three on a mission to rethink the way we raise our children. I love translating deep thoughts about parenting into practical, actionable strategies that you can use in your home right away. One of my core beliefs is that we are all doing the best we can with the resources we have available to us in that moment. So even as we struggle and even as we are having a hard time on the outside, we remain Good inside. Today's episode is a deep dive with the amazing Jessica Malati Rivera and her also amazing husband, Joshua Rivera. Jessica and I met when we were featured in the same issue of Parents Magazine. In the issue where I was named an advisor, she was featured in an article and on the COVID we connected and I've been a fan ever since. Jessica is an infectious disease specialist working directly on the pandemic. Joshua is a lawyer. All of this to say they are extremely busy. They have high pressure, high stress jobs and they're currently home with their two kids with minimal childcare. In this episode, Jessica and Joshua come to talk to me about the struggles they're having with their three and four year old kids. There's frequent sibling arguments, adult frustration, and escalations. I'm sure we can all relate to this pattern. Jessica and Joshua are so incredibly open and reflective and as a result, we really get into important dynamics and strategies for changes. Let's jump in. Jessica and Joshua, I am so excited to be talking with you. Thank you so much for talking with me, for being willing to kind of let me in on what's going on for the two of you and in your home. So as we start, why don't you just tell me a little bit about what's kind of bringing you to this conversation and what's on your mind a little bit about your family as well.

Yeah. Thanks so much for having us. Joshua and I have been married for eight years and some change and we've got two littles. They are just recently three and a four going on five year old. Throughout the pandemic, they have been home with us every single day. So we have not had the advantage like some people where school reopenings meant relief. We have had our kids home every single day since March 10th of 2020. And it's been a blessing in many ways. It's also been a tremendous Challenge because our kids, you know, are very curious and precocious and want a lot more from us than we're able to give. We have been working full time from home. As you know. I'm an infectious disease specialist, so I've been working on the pandemic specifically this entire time. And my husband has a very demanding job as well. So there's a lot of zoom calls, a lot of podcasts, a lot of interviews, a lot of all kinds of things that kind of keep us digitally disconnected from our kids. And, yeah, that's. It's been kind of a strange journey.

Yeah, it definitely feels like it's been a unique time where I don't think people weren't prepared for what the pandemic was going to be. But I just think, like, when you think about caring for children, you always think about, like, going to work and then coming back, and you think about kids, like, being taken care of by a professional and, you know, like, someone else having kind of responsibility full time during the day. And so when we did not have access to that during the pandemic, it just, like, really kind of was unexpected, but also changed a lot of the, like, I guess, like, feeling dynamics of, like, you know, how do I address kind of the day to day?

I want to just echo that. You know, I have three kids, and I mean, I love my kids and. Okay, I love my kids. And if someone would have said to me a long time ago, just so you know, when you're life planning, you're going to have a pretty long period of time where there's going to be this pandemic and your kids are just going to be home, like, all of them. How many kids do you want to have? Right. Like, I would be like, oh, well, I'm just glad you let me know that, because now I'm just going to be thinking about this and the spacing, like, a little bit differently. Right. No one said that. Right. And I think you're right. We imagine during a part of the day, Joshua, you were very kind to say another professional is going to be looking over our children. I mean, for me, just like another adult, just like someone else. Like someone else who's, like, over 18 is supposed to be looking after my kids a decent percentage of the time. And the two of you haven't had that at all. You're in the kind of age range with your kids where there's not a ton of independence. And, oh, let me fold that laundry for you, and sure, I'll clear all the plates. That's like, probably not happening a terrible amount, right? No, not.

I'd go for just, just reason if, if there was some reason there, like, hey, guess what? Because I'm on a phone call right now, I cannot play hide and go seek with you. But, you know, we're not even getting.

That this is all happening. Jessica, you're part of the face of fighting this pandemic. Information spreading around this pandemic. You, I have to imagine, are insanely busy. This is really stressful. Joshua, you're really, really busy too. You have these two kids who are pretty close in age. They went from kind of young toddlers to still just mid toddlers. I think it is just a really good baseline for all of us to zoom out and look back at this last, you know, what, 16 months, 18 months, with an amount of kind of wonder and awe that, like, you're even here. I can see you. You both are functioning from, you know, at least the waist up. You know, like. Yeah, exactly. I don't know about the injuries, but really, this is, this is heroic. And I, and I do often think that when I think back on past historic periods of time, like, we all learn about the Cold War, we learn about world wars, we learn about obviously these really stressful times to have lived through. I've never until now really thought about the fact that people had three and four year olds that they were raising while they were living through that.

Yes.

And I think now that we're going through this, we feel that in a different way. Right. Like, wow, someone was raising kids during those periods of time. And the other thing, during those times, we look back on those as these discrete periods of time. Like, it lasted from this year to this year. But while people were living through these times, they had no idea how long these things are going to be. Just like we, you know, aren't quite sure exactly what the future brings. So with all that uncertainty and all that stress in mind, let's kind of jump in to. To kind of daily life in your home where some stress points are. And so we can end today's call with some points of action and hope for some change.

Yeah. You know, when I think about the way that our kids kind of pivoted in the pandemic, it was a big pivot for our daughter, who's 4, less so for our son, because our son, I mean, half of his life has been the pandemic. He went from a kind of an older baby to a toddler. Throughout the pandemic, our daughter was actually in part time, day School, and we had to pull her out because of the pandemic, and it seemed temporary. We told her, we'll come back in a few months. We'll say bye to your friends. And she is. She came out of the womb extroverted, right? Never met a stranger, would walk off with a group of friends that she'd just met for the first time. And so to go home was very, very difficult for her. She struggled so much with, like, Zoom ballet class and Zoom school, and she was young for that anyway. So I have to keep reminding myself that, like, this actually was life altering for her. Whereas our son was kind of like, oh, everybody's home all the time now. This is dope. Like, he was super into that kind of extra hangout. But that's partially why we wonder, like, is it because he's not very socialized that he kind of, you know, has difficulty managing his emotions? He hasn't had to share his toys or hasn't experienced that opportunity to share toys with other kids.

But.

But, you know, they're very close in age. They're either thick as thieves or absolute enemies, which is, you know, very expected. And I think one of the biggest struggles we have right now is our daughter is she loves to play together, but she also understands when she needs space, and she likes to play independently and she likes to have her own things. And she's very particular about some of her stuff and the way things go. And she's often correcting our son if he says things incorrectly. And our son is just this, like. Like, very affable, like, you know, silly, affectionate little blob. And so, you know, he. They will fight because he will kind of invade her space in a way that she's like, no, this is not for you. You're not playing this game, or whatever it is. And it almost every single time ends up in an explosion of tears on both ends and screaming. Right? So whatever item was kind of the object of both of their affections has either broken or been snatched or fallen away or whatever it is. And then it's just the damage control that we have to do after the fact takes so much time. And witnessing that thing, which can sometimes take as little as five seconds, is a huge trigger for both of us because, you know, we're trying to de. Escalate, trying our best not to shout. And then the only way to kind of break through this actual war that's happening is to shout and to try to, you know, break it up. But we don't win often. And I know Winning is not really the goal either.

We want everyone to win, but it sounds nobody wins.

Nobody wins.

The four of you, Nobody wins and loses.

Yep.

We all have triggers with our kids and that's like we all yell when we don't want to yell. And so I just want to say that. And you know, when I'm not in the role of being a psychologist, I'm a mom who, you know, has my own triggers too and yells and says things I don't want to say. So to me, what says so much about parents is just our willingness to say, yes, these things happen. Let's try to reframe things so we can end at a different point. Because if we keep thinking about things the same way, that's usually the first step of doing things the same way. And I think we all know if we do things the same way, we're going to get to the same result. Right. So the framework we have to understand our kids behavior to me is way more powerful than any strategy because it actually determines what strategies and interventions we're going to use. It kind of determines the bucket we pull from. So what? While we will definitely get to specific strategies, I think it's really important to start with the framework for how we understand what's going on. So let's get a little more specific, like tell me what, what will probably happen later today, what items are being taken, what items are special, how long does it go on for? Like, give me a play by play.

A typical interaction will be they're playing and my son, who, and I can see this, like he's just intending to pester her. He'll just, you know, if we have like a program on, he'll like stand in front of her so that she can't see. And it's annoying. I'm like, that's an annoying thing to do. It's funny. It makes me actually laugh because I'm like, he's, you know, he's got this like little, you know, poking sense of humor. But she will express frustration and then when she expresses frustration in a certain way, that either makes him upset. Both of our kids are very like sound sensitive. Like if they're very loud sounds or if there's grunting or yelling or whatever, like kind of makes them a little bit anxious. So she snaps at him. He then crumbles.

Give me more specific about the snap, like get away from the TV like that.

Or she'll like thrash a leg and scream and say like move. Or she'll be like lay. Or she'll Actually just make a.

She kind of starts out. It. She doesn't start out with that outburst first. She kind of starts out with, like, a Way. Like a wine, like a lathe. I can't see.

Right?

Like, I can't see. And. And he kind of just. It'll like, empower him. It'll, like, set him. He'll, like, you know, become more resolute where he'll, like, throw his shoulders down. And then if she continues to kind of whine, like, the pitch intensifies, and he'll kind of respond with, like. With like, a grunt of, like, a. Like, you know, like, I'm not gonna. I'm not gonna back down. And then from there, very quickly, it gets to, like, move, and then they, like, start grunting at each other, which, you know, which will.

Which triggers them both, because then they'll, like. One of them will eventually cry and be like, that person shouted at me or, that person growled at me. And you're like, you were doing it to each other to kind of assert your power.

What's going on for you at this point?

Immediately annoyed at how dumb the conflict is.

Yes. Yeah.

Like, why. Why would you stand in front of her? Like, that's such an annoying thing to do. Why are you screaming? Why aren't you asking for help? It's a lot of whys. It's a lot of, like, you know, we've done this before. You know that if he's doing something annoying and it's frustrating you to come and ask for help, to get some intervention, and instead we're like, okay, so this is now a mess that we have to clean up.

For me, it's like, the deterministic nature of it all of, like, I know it's gonna get to a place that I'm really not excited about. Right. Like, I, like. I, like, hear it happening, and you, like, hope and, like, I hope they can, like, work it out. Out. But then it's getting there, and you're like, it's coming, and I'm really in the middle of something right now, and I'm. And I have to, like, make a decision soon about, like, at what point do I step in? How do I step in? You know, if I'm on a call, can I say, hey, hang on a minute or two minutes, right? And, like, go and, like, resolve it and then come back quickly. It's kind of like the. The impending doom and the kind of realization that you. You have to make a decision quickly to address whatever is going to happen.

And where will it Lead to one of you yelling or both of you yelling. How does it get there? Because we're going to like, walk through it and then we're going to kind of reverse and you know, have some different options to veer off course.

If one of them, and I would say probably most specifically our daughter gets to the point where she's so frustrated because she was like, I just wanted to sit here and watch my program and all this happened that I. She kind of like melts. Right. And she just is inconsolable and is crying. And that is frustrating because you want to be like, this is not even a rational thing to be crying about. Right. But also holding the space for her being very sensitive. And, you know, tears are valid in many occasions, but usually sometimes it's blinding for them when one of them is a puddle of tears that they then act out again. And so they'll just like continue to of sort scream or thrash or something. That we've noticed that they will do is when we say, like, you need to stop screaming or you need to like, stop kicking right now. And they'll continue to do it, which seems very like, obstinate and a bit defiant. They're just like so angry that they can't control themselves. That's when it's, you know, you're tempted to just like, dominate them and raise your voice or have a more stern voice and be like, you really need to settle down.

Yeah.

And some of those situations are because we're actually worried about their safety. Like, like, you're gonna hurt yourself or you're gonna kick him in the face or you're gonna kick me in the face. Like, let's de escalate here. But it will usually mean like a stern, more firm voice. Yeah, I think.

I think a lot of times it'll happen where, like, you. For me, it'll happen where I will inquire with an authoritative voice. Right. I'm not screaming, but I'm like speaking loudly. Right. So they hear me like, hey, what's happening? What's going on? And sometimes at that point, one of them or both of them will like, play the victim. You know, like the explosion of emotion and tears because, like, an authority has stepped in. And now I want to like, I want to like, show that I'm hurt. And at that point, particularly with our daughter because she's older, that triggers me where I'm like, you know that this is not how we respond. Right. We've talked about this. At that point, I will often yell and be like, hey, like that's not right. You know, you're not supposed to be doing this like crying. Like this is not how we get what we want. And sometimes that like, inquiring voice actually comes from a different room. Because I'm like still trying to do the thing that I'm trying to do, but I'm trying to like also de escalate from, you know, from distance. And I think that, that, you know, probably is also not helpful.

We're kind of dealing with an impossible situation, right? So let's just like name that. So anything we talk about as strategies are going to be useful. Sometimes they're not going to be nearly as useful in your home as they sound. As we talk about it, everything's gonna sound like so helpful as we talk about it. And then real life happens. So we know that. Okay, so let's just name that. And it's also something where if we intervene in just small ways that can make some small changes we can get out of the cycle. Because it seems like it's the repetition for all four of you. It's like we're doing a dance we don't wanna be doing. Nobody likes this dance. And yet we keep meeting on the dance floor doing the same dance, right? And I often think in family systems when kids are kind of repeatedly doing the same things, I really don't think it's ever a parent's fault that that's happening. I just do think it's the parents responsibility to be the first people on the dance floor doing something that would require our kids to do a different dance move. And that's our responsibility to figure out kind of what that is. So as kind of a baseline foundation, to me, I think it's critical to separate logic from regulation. I love logic. I actually really do. I think I love linearity, I love kind of rationality. And those things in my own life have been massively helpful. And Joshua, I don't know what you do, but my guess is it's helpful in your job.

I'm a lawyer, so.

Yeah, you're a lawyer.

He loves logic.

Okay, so this is everything I need to know. Now. We are done with the consultation. No, no, no, I really mean this. Lawyers are usually drawn to that field because their left brain kind of likes being on fire, right? They really do, in a good way. Likes being lit up. It's like it makes sense. Things make sense in law. And so you're drawn to the field for that reason. And then usually that part of us grows as. Because that's also what we're working in. Right. And Jessica, I know for you like facts and data matter, so you must also like logic and linearity and kind of rational conclusions. Okay?

Yeah.

So right now we're gonna say something like the following. Like thank you, logic. Thank you, linearity. You are useful in so many areas in my life and intervening with my kids when they're struggling, it's just not where you're going to shine. It actually gets in our way and here's kind of why. All of the struggles our kids have, especially in these situations you're naming, these are struggles of emotion regulation. Something feels so unmanageable in their bodies that their bodies are almost on fire. And when we feel that kind of out of control feeling, guess what? We act how we feel, right? We act out of control. The screaming, the doubling down when it doesn't make any sense, right? The, the kicking, the nasty words, these are a sign that our emotions have kind of overwhelmed our bodies. And I really believe as animals is what we are. We feel before we think. And if our bodies can't regulate the big feelings we have, we literally don't even have access to, to logic and rationality. And it's actually the same thing as adults, right. I know so many adults who we know better. I don't know how many of us know how to eat or we like know we should wake up and exercise or we know we should turn off our phone at 9pm or shouldn't sleep with our phone in our room. And yet I don't think that knowledge translates into action for most of us. What does control us in those moments is unregulated feelings, right? Maybe it's, ugh, I just feel the need for privacy and quiet time and that's why I'm scrolling on my phone. Or actually the thought of working out brings up so many difficult feelings. And in service of avoiding those feelings, I avoid the working out even though the working out would help me. Like, but again, the knowledge and the rationality isn't the thing that changes my behavior. The emotion regulation does. And I think, Joshua, this came up for me, especially when you're saying like, we want our kids to have these responses and you can see the logical path and get. When we meet big emotions with logic, it literally is pouring fuel on the fire. Right. So we need to figure out how to meet your kids emotion regulation needs, which ironically will allow them to access more logical and rational thoughts in their mind. So with that in mind, what is your most generous interpretation? Okay, single most generous even it seems so out there. Why. Why is your son blocking the tv? Why would he do that? And why would he not move? Let's just start there. Let's like brainstorm together.

Attention.

Yeah, I think, I think he. I think he wants to be a part of our daughter's world, you know? Yeah. He just wants to be kind of like close to her and like participate with her, you know, he doesn't know of a good way to do that. And she's also not like in a position to receive that because she's like, like watching this program.

Yeah. Jessica, tell me what's coming up for you as we're talking about it.

He is so fond of her, you know, it's like, it's so endearing. He just like, he wakes up and the first word out of his mouth is, where's Sonia? If she's happened to woken up, waking up before him and has gone downstairs. And you know, she's not at all dismissive of him, but he just wants more of her. And I think that that shows up in like the silliest ways and the like ways in which she feels loved in the ways where she's just like, not right now. And yeah, I see it. And it's like, really? You're like, I know why he's doing this. It's because he just wants her to like, turn her gaze towards him.

I want to note something here. And I'm talking to you, the listener. When Jessica and Joshua thought about the most generous interpretation, they softened their tone, changed their pace, changed. It made Jessica emotional. And I find the same thing happens for me when I access the most generous interpretation of my kids behavior. It's a total framework shift. I wonder if we could all do an experiment today at some point. Think about the most generous interpretation of your child's difficult behavior. And just notice if you soften a bit. Notice if there's something small that shifts within you. Okay, let's get back to Jessica and Joshua and. And you're. You're zeroing in on something that I feel is so concrete and so deep. Like, I picture your son saying, like, see me. I want to be seen.

Yeah.

And so. Right. It's not her responsibility to take care of all your son's emotional needs. But also he has different emotional needs than she does and he kind of wants her attention and validation. See me. See me. And it sounds like she's someone who's more driven by what she wants to do. I'm trying to watch the show. Get out of my way. Right. And also we have to remember she's still four. Right. She's so young. Still. They're both so young. And this is where I think the two of you come in. And again, take this with a grain of salt, because, of course, there's times it's like I'm in a meeting, like, I. I can't do this. Right. But when we can push ourselves, say, okay, I'm gonna step outside this job and attend to this, I actually think what's gonna be key is the two of you intervening much sooner.

Yeah.

In the cycle rather than what I do too, which is kind of like crossing my fingers, like, I hope this. I hope this ends up okay. But you even said Jodra, like, it tends not to. And then in addition to it being more escalated, by the time I get there, I'm also more resentful because I've been kind of having a different set of expectations or hope. So now I'm adding my resentment. And if I also know I'm someone who tends to lead a little more logic than emotion, by the time I get to resentment level, forget it. I'm just. I'm just gonna lose it on my kids. Right? So let's go over what that might look like. So you start to hear. Let's say it's this TV fight. Right? Move away from the tv. I'm trying to watch. Right. To me, the level of intervention that's helpful is, again, what's focused on emotion regulation there. Our kids are really good problem solvers when they're grounded, Just like I'm sure the two of you in your marriage can solve a problem when you're grounded, and when you're not, nothing gets solved. Right? Same thing for all of us. Right? So to me, the early intervention isn't maybe moving your son away from the tv, but coming in and saying maybe something like this. Oh, I see two kids who want different things. Oh, I feel like you really want your sister's attention. Oh, I feel like you really want to be watching the tv. Oh, no. So much going on. Right? So this is actually a very different intervention than one that's built on logic, because me too. My logical brain's like, this is so stupid. Can you please just move away from the tv? And that's not a bad thought. That's a totally natural thought. But again, if we just check it a little bit, because it's not that useful when we get there early, we're gonna have a better chance of being successful, connecting and being able to empathize with both of them. And then after the fifth scream, or after my kind of waiting in my room, hoping things go a different way while just hearing things get worse. Walking in early and telling yourself, I'm not here to separate my kids. I'm not even here at this point to tell my son, move away from the tv, or, come on, just wait. You know, he'll move away soon. Those are both solutions. I'm here to try to help both my kids essentially take some version of, like, a deep breath so I can help them figure this out. I actually think this is not that different from your son quote, ignoring your daughter's request to move. Like, I really do believe our most basic human need is to feel seen. Like, when we feel seen by someone and what's going on for us, we feel real to them. We feel validated. And then we're usually pretty flexible about our behavior because this core human need has been spoken to. Okay, I don't need to stand in front of the TV if I really feel seen, because that's what I was looking for in the first place. Now I can move over, right? And this, to me, is like a bucket. I think even outside, especially outside these difficult moments, the two of you can really fill up more in your kids. So even saying to your daughter, outside of any of these moments, oh, this last year has been so hard, right? Like, we're here, we're not here. Daddy's working from home, but I'm not really available. You want me. I can't come out. I want to be more patient with you. And I have a meeting. Oh, that is so tricky. I'm solving nothing. That's why, again, the logical part of my brain even is like, well, what? Okay, then what? Then what? Then what do I do? Like, no, that's the whole thing, because I'm just speaking to these feelings that are inside my kid or at another time. It's really hard to be a big sister, isn't it? Oh, like, your brother wants things of you, and you want to give him things, but other times, you don't. Like, it ever feels like, goodness, I just want to watch a TV show and not have to worry if my brother's gonna stand there or not. That's so hard. Or to your son, maybe. So hard to be a little brother, isn't it? Do you ever feel like you want things from your sister and I don't even know what those things are, but she just doesn't give them to you? That is so tricky. I'm really building up that feeling of feeling seen Inside my child. Because to me that builds up like connection capital. I often think about that very literally and I think when we have more of that in a relationship, we're all able to kind of problem solve and be flexible and listen to someone on those moments that we really, really need that person to cooperate with us.

Yeah, certainly I think we can do a lot more of that.

And even just like making a concrete, like, I'm going to set an alarm on my phone at the time I usually put my kids to bed and I'm just going to say, like, name a difficult thing my kid might be dealing with. Oh, it's really hard to be a kid right now, right?

Yeah.

You ever feel like it's really hard to be a 4 year old? I like, done it like, check. I really mean this. It doesn't have to be. I don't expect your daughter to say back to you, oh, thanks, dad, keep going. You know what I mean? She's just going to say, are we done now? Exactly. But trust that that matters now. The other thing that I think can really, really help when we're living through these really impossible times is role playing one of these situations with your kids when you do have some time. So on the weekend. And it's almost paradoxical because when we have these repeated, difficult, just annoying moments with our kids, when our kids are not engaging that way, we're just like, you know, counting our lucky stars. We're like, all right, great, glad this isn't happening. But in some ways when we're, when, when we bring it up, we're willing to then approach it and practice something to create more mastery in that. So the next time it happens, our kids have more skills. Right. If you always miss the foul shot at the end of the game, I'm guessing a coach would tell that player, hey, we gotta do more foul shots in the gym right now. Bringing up foul shots in the gym might say, ugh, it brings up all my feelings. But you also need to practice to be better when the game's on the line, it's really the same thing. So I would absolutely, let's say this TV situation, I would say to your kids on a kind of time that you feel you have some energy. So maybe it's, you know, I don't know, never, but a little more than, you know, on a weekday, maybe as on a Saturday, say, oh, sometimes watching TV is hard. You want to watch, your brother wants to stand in front. Let's do what we do when we have trouble with something, we practice it and then I'd literally position your son in front of the tv. I'd sit your daughter on the couch, and then I'd actually prompt them. I'd say to your son, I want you to say, I'm not moving. Right? And then he'll probably find it funny. There is something ridiculous, which is part of the effectiveness, because when you're able to make a really stressful situation kind of light and funny, you've actually changed the situation the next time it comes up because you've added these elements to it. And then in that moment, we can usually shine as a parent because I say, I wonder what we could do. Ugh. And maybe again, your kids like to be independent so you can sell it more. Oh, I know what we can do. Joshua, did you order that rocket blaster that you put under our kids feet and just like sends them up to the ceiling and then everyone gets their own space or something? Just ridiculous, you know? Oh, wait, did you do that thing that we said? We were just gonna get 50 TVs for our house and then everyone could watch, so. Oh, we didn't do that. They didn't come yet. Okay, I'm not having any good ideas. And then my guess is in a situation like that, one of your kids could come up with a solution. You might need them a little bit. Like, I wonder what you would need to move.

Hmm.

I wonder what we could think about. Right? And then maybe your kids do a dance together. Your daughter says, hey, let's play after the show or something, right? Or if one of the main interventions is coming to get you, one of you says, oh, I'm just gonna wait in my office. I don't know if someone's gonna come get me for help, but if someone does, I'm gonna do a really, really, really weird dance. I'm just saying, do a really weird dance. Like, I know if I say that to my kids, they love to see me be weird and do weird things. So, like, all of a sudden, they're gonna come get me. And now going back to what you're starting with is we know what's gonna be helpful, but because I'm willing to practice it, be silly, get in there, let them have the win right by me. Kind of just maybe planting the idea, but stepping away now we're actually going through those motions at a time when emotions are low, so that when the time comes and they've. They've practiced that a little bit, you know, outside of these specifics, what I think your kids in some ways are Asking for, even though it seems so indirect, is more one on one time with you guys. Whenever siblings in my mind are really at it with each other, especially about silly things. To me, it's a way kids are saying, I just don't feel so or as secure as I would want to right now, which of course they don't. That's nobody's fault. That's not a referendum on your parenting. This is such a challenging time. But then kids end up taking it out on their sibling because they're the easiest target. And in some ways, they're a threat to getting the very attention they need. And I don't know how much the two of you institute kind of any type of people call it special time or one on one time, but to me, this is just the best bang for our buck intervention we can get. I think the guilt around this is high for me too. Just so you know, it's not like I do this with my kids all the time. And sometimes when I'm like, I'm gonna do 15 minutes with my son, it's actually two minutes with my son. Or when I can't do two minutes with my son, it's a minute where I just give my son a huge hug and just say, oh, I'm so glad it's me and you right now. I love being with you. And tomorrow I tell myself I'm really gonna have five minutes, 10 minutes in his room where he tells me exactly what he wants to do. I'm just joining his world again. I'm kind of filling him up with feeling seen and valuable in the family. And there's kind of this amazing thing where sometimes those interventions are the most powerful ones to reduce these little sibling annoying arguments because our kids really, really do feel filled up. How reasonable or unreasonable is that in your family right now?

I mean, it's very reasonable. And I think those one minute cuddles or those five minutes outside, you know, our daughter is almost five, so she's almost phasing out her nap. The fact that we've even gone this long is amazing. And so, you know, we try to do like, okay, you can have like an hour of quiet time in your room, and then when you're, you know, when the light turns green, you can come downstairs. And that is time that we have with her because our son will like actually sleep the whole three plus hours.

Yeah.

And that goes a long way with her.

Can I say, you know, five screen free minutes with my kid in a day. Right. Like, I know for me, I sometimes don't have that either. It takes mindfulness to say, I'm really going to have that. And I don't trust myself with my cell phone anywhere near me. It's like in my room, under my underwear, like in a drawer. Like, I have to, like, hide it, you know, like off. Like so many layers. And then after those minutes, it. You know what it. We are seen by our kids. We are with them. It feels good for everyone. Going back to. We want everybody to win, and everybody does win in those moments when we are really with our kids for a manageable amount of time. So I think that's a really great kind of outcome from here. And it's okay to have to, like, schedule it in and put it in your calendar. I know if something's in my calendar, I'm much more likely to do it than if I just say I'm going to do it.

Yeah.

I think also, as kind of we come to an end today, just reminding yourself this is an insanely stressful time to be raising a three and a four year old at home. No one's. No one's. No one's crushing parenting in these situations.

All in this family together.

Nobody. Right.

I love how you started this conversation that, like, people went through historic things with kids our age. Like, to. You're like, man to think, I mean, thank God this isn't a war, thank God this isn't a famine. Thank God this isn't, you know, other things that could be more, you know, acutely dangerous or something. I mean, this is not something light. But we also have been so blessed. Right. We have shelter, we have food, we have each other, we have our health. But this is a historic thing. And half of our poor son's life is this pandemic. And those will be probably conversations that we'll have with them, like, later in their life. You know, we went through a really hard thing together when you guys were young.

I would have those conversations today. This is a really hard thing. This is a really hard thing. Mommy works, Daddy works. I'm sure they know there's Covid. Right. We're busy. You're not doing the things kids usually do. Oh, you know, it's hard to be three. It's hard to be four. Right. The two of you can look at each other and be like, it's really hard to be an adult, too. Right. But we don't put that on our kids. But just I don't think you have to wait until your kids are older. I actually think that that's actually so helpful for them to know from you right now. So I want to thank you too, really, so much. It's been so amazing to speak with you. We could speak for so many more hours. Really. Your. Your openness and willingness to share, just be so vulnerable. It's like, says volumes to me about how lucky your kids are to have the two of you as parents. So thank you.

Thank you.

Thanks for having us. Your counsel is valuable to us.

So, yes, very much so. We will make great efforts to put this into practice.

Some. Some, you know, like some. Not every. You know, take one thing, one thing, one thing at a time. That's what I try to do too. Well, thank you guys so much.

Thank you.

Let's tie it all together with three takeaways.

1.

Let's remember the parenting we all did or are currently still doing through the pandemic. This is really hard stuff. Maybe right now we can all put our feet on the floor, take a deep breath, and just hold ourselves in wonder and awe. It's been quite a journey and we're all here to tell the tale. Validate how hard it was and how hard it still is. Give yourself credit for all you've been doing. 2. Logic is great. Truly it is. I like logic. It's just that it's not a good match for emotional moments. In fact, logic inflames our emotions as it leads to us feeling invalidated and alone and wrong. And as Jessica, Joshua and I discussed, at the core of most emotional struggles is actually the desire to be seen to gain connection. And logic gets in the way. So if you know you're prone to logic, take a deep breath, say hello to it, thank it for helping you in other times, and practice putting it to the side because it's just not that useful in how you relate to your kids or actually to anyone during emotional moments. 3. When we repeatedly have the same difficult behavior with our kids. Use role play to build new skills and practice new outcomes. So let's say leaving the house with your kids is always a power struggle. Practice this in a no stress moment where you don't actually have to leave the house. If you always argue with your child about homework, pretend it's homework time on a weekend morning and think through how to communicate respectively respectfully at that time. We can't learn new skills when we're activated and stressed, so survive those moments as best you can and then reconnect when everyone is calm and a little bit more grounded. Thanks for listening to Good inside. Let's stay connected@goodinside.com you can sign up for my workshops and subscribe to my free newsletter. And for more ideas and tips, check out my Instagram Dr. Beckyoodinside. Good inside is produced by Beth Rowe and Brad Gage and executive produced by Erica belsky and me, Dr. Becky let's end by placing our hands on our hearts and reminding ourselves. Even as I struggle and even as I have a hard time on the outside, I remain Good.