Deep Dive: Kristen Bell and Jackie Tohn on the Magic of Song

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Hi, I'm Dr. Becky and this is Good Inside. I'm a clinical psychologist and mom of three on a mission to rethink the way we raise our children. I love translating deep thoughts about parenting into practical, actionable strategies that you can use in your home right away. One of my core beliefs is that we are all doing the best we can with the resources we have available to us in that moment. So even as we struggle and even as we are having a hard time on the outside, we remain Good inside.

In today's episode, I speak with Kristin Bell and Jackie Tone. Kristen and Jackie are actors, singers, and producers with a new children's series on Amazon called Do Re and Me. The three of us sit down and share our ideas about using music to help diffuse challenging moments and build core emotion regulation skills. Kristin asked me some parenting questions about the tricky situations in her home. And Jackie reflects on how writing songs for this show helped heal parts of her own childhood. With all of that in mind, let's jump in. Hi, Kristin.

Hi, Jackie.

Hi, Dr. Kristen Kennedy.

I'm really excited to be talking with you all.

I don't want to ask you all the questions. I don't want you to ask us any questions. I want to ask you all the questions.

Well, let's bring that on.

So I'm like, look, I'm an avid reader of anything about brain science or psychology or parenting and have gone through, I mean, literally all of them. Like body keeps the score. Danish way of parenting. Nurture, shock, like blessing of a skin, neat like everything. And I wow, I just wanna know, first question, am I doing it right?

That is the question everyone is asking.

Themselves all the time. So much of what I think about with parenting is what goes on inside our bodies. You know, what do we see in our kids that trigger something in us? And whether we have kids or we're thinking about our relationship with ourselves or with important people in our lives, it's all the same principles.

So not to project.

Well, right. Our kids, I often think and I. Right. I have three kids who have big personalities. All of them, they really show us so much of what's unhealed in our own from our own childhoods.

What. Right.

Still kind of lives in us. So especially in their. In their tricky moments.

Right.

A whole world. I always feel like kind of happens for us. I'm so excited to talk about how this even all relates to your show. Because one. One of the probably most popular videos on my Instagram actually has to do with when our kids are in really tricky moments, how everyone's like, well, what do I say? What do I do? And they feel our tone and our kind of connection. And even they feel song way before they process words, that we have to get their body back to a place of feeling safe. So I always end up making up songs with my own kids. And that idea for parents of, oh, I don't need to get the song script right, but maybe even song can help me regulate myself is so powerful.

A hundred we've been talking about that.

I mean, that was the impetus for this show, is knowing how important music is. It's the reason why we all know what Baby Mozart is and why they say, oh, put it on your belly. It music changes your brain. It can put you in a different mood. It can grow the neuroplasticity of your brain. Like, there are studies that tell us that kids get better at math and at their social skills when they're exposed to music and music education. And the goal. Jackie had this idea with our friend Michael. They brought it over to my living room as a guinea pig tester for my kids. Like, hey, they looked at my little girl. They were like, do you like these images? Do you respond to these songs? And I said, what are you doing? They were like, well, we're trying to develop a kids show because music education is being cut in all public schools right now. And my kids go to public school. And I was like, I want them to get as much music education as possible because I wouldn't be here without a music education, Sincerely would not have become an actor. It's how I discovered acting, and I have such a profound respect for it and developing this show. It's. Jackie labels it a sneak teach, which I love that term. It's an original animated series. And it's. It's entertaining, but it's also teaching your kids music theory, an emotional lesson, and a musical genre all in one. And, like, some of my greatest mom moments are when, like, my kids are begging to use my phone and I need to succumb to that. But I've, like, found a puzzle game where they have to spell, and I hand it to them with, like, a sly smile on my face, knowing they're getting educated. And the apps that go along with Do Re and me will be that because they will be able to make music, and they will be growing their brains, which is really important. And I talk to my Kids on a daily basis about how I talk to them on a daily basis about regulation in general, about how our bodies need to regulate and about how music can regulate us. And we actually two days ago just built an actual physical toolbox. Because one thing that, because I love like science and brain reading and, and parenting reading and I talk to them a lot about their tools, like when they're upset. What can you use? What do you want to pull out of your toolbox right now? You got a hundred things in your toolbox. You got to take a deep breath. You got an ask an adult, you got to take a walk around the yard, you gotta take a get a glass of water, you got cuddle a dog, you got look up at the clouds and find a shape. You got hundreds of tools. And my 6 year old said, wouldn't it be great if we had a real toolbox? So obviously I immediately order real toolboxes and they're mini. And I used as a buy in, I used a bunch of stickers and I had them decorate this the toolbox. And then I wrote them all out on note cards, like a hundred of them. And I was like, any of these that you want to put in your toolbox, you put in there in case you need to locate them. And one of them was put on a song you love and sing out loud.

Beautiful. Yeah. So powerful.

I'm curious if you're open to it. I'd love to hear about kind of like a real life difficult moment in terms of using those tools or how song comes up with your kids.

Yeah, I mean, I have one child that is fairly introverted. She. You know what's weird is I noticed I was an introvert at like 37 and I have been pretending to be an extrovert. But all the tests of like, do you feel filled up after you go to a party or do you feel drained? I was like, oh my God. I am the most outgoing introvert I know. But I really need retreat time. I need it. And with my closest group of friends, I actually have like code where if we're sitting at a table of six or eight, like our pod and I'm three hours into the night and they still want to hang and I'm cashed, I will go in the other room and do a puzzle and be in my own head. And they know I'm cool. Like we like, they know that about me. My oldest daughter is fairly introverted and needs a lot of alone time, but doesn't know how to ask for it because she like Me is wants to please as well. And one thing we've done that I think is helping though I would love any other tips is we got her a little like ipod touch and loaded her favorite music on it. So she has the ability to close out everything as one of her tools if she needs to. And she doesn't do it like at the dinner table. It's not a. It's not a chance to ignore. It's when she's feeling in a heightened state. She can choose the song she wants to regulate to and go upstairs and she'll just be sitting, you know, on her bed and listening for 20 minutes.

Yeah, it's so tricky. I feel like when, you know, when you're describing that, I think about, I have two sons and one daughter. My daughter's my middle and she both wants time alone and also I think wants me to be there. At the same time, there's like such conflict. Like, I want you, but get out of my room. But if you go out of my room, I'm also gonna scream, I can't believe you left me. And one of the things, this actually ironically led to me putting out this, my Instagram, because it all came from. I was developing this button for sleep. Like picture a staples easy button. But why do kids have trouble falling asleep while sleep is separation. So how do you internalize a parent soothing function when for a lot of kids they don't sleep with the parent in the room is really the, the really the trouble with kids sleeping independently. And so for this daughter who both is fiercely independent but also I know wants me there, I recorded myself singing you are my sunshine, which is not like melodic when I sing it, but it's my voice singing it. And it's like this on demand mom, right? So and also to be frank, it's an on demand nice mom. Because when she'd call me back at like 2 in the morning, I wasn't. I was not in my best singing voice then, despite my best attempts. So we started using that when she went to sleep. And so part of the routine, I'd walk out and she'd press this down and it was me singing, you are my sunshine. And then I'd say something, I'd say her like bedtime mantra, right? So it'd be like, mommy is here.

Or maybe mommy is near.

Beth is safe, your bed is cozy. And kind of again in this kind of just melodic, almost hypnotic tune. And one of the deals when she was having trouble sleeping is I would ask her to press it on my walk out of her room and press it at least once more before she called me back, and then maybe twice more. So through kind of this connection and honestly, through this melody, too, she was able to really take that in.

I love that because we're what we. So I have a. She's a Velcro child, the same one we're talking about. She's very much a Velcro child and will trail me around the house no matter what. She. She could be playing with her friends in the. In the funnest game possible. If I walk up the stairs, the second my foot hits the stairs, she'll yell my name, where are you going? And I'm like, I'm just going upstairs to fold some clothes. And she follows me. Like. There's a Velcro aspect that I want to make sure is staying healthy because I never want to push it away. But I also want her to grow. And as she falls asleep, I mean, there's. Look, five of the seven nights a week I'm sleeping with them. But there are some nights where we go, no, this is mommy and daddy's time. We're going to watch a show. And we want our time together because we love each other. And when I leave the bedroom, it's always the exact same conversation. It's like, mama, are you leaving? Yes, baby. Will you check on me? Yes, baby. Will you lock your door? Absolutely not, baby. Will you leave the door open? Yes, baby. How many minutes till you're back? About ten every single night. And I'm wondering if my fatigue with that conversation I should just throw out the window because maybe that conversation is the soothe.

It's. It's interesting. I think, I think often the way I think about anxiety for kids and adults is kind of like an equation, which is uncertainty plus our underestimation of our ability to cope. And most of us try to solve anxiety, me included, from the uncertainty side. We try to get information. Information. We read a million Twitter threads, we ask a million questions. And I actually think information is super helpful, especially to kids. We want to tell them what's going on. We want to be really honest with them. But then I always find there's this point where. And you know it as a parent, you know it as a non parent, too. You're like, I think you know the information. Like you're. You're looking right like that. Like, I'm guessing you don't ever lock her in her room. I'm guessing you don't ever. Peace out. Exactly right. So I wonder if at that Moment. I think two things. First of all, I would so love to know if she would find soothing in this button, because if you are able to leave her with mommy when she can't actually have mommy, right, there's a way to extend your presence or even infuse your presence into, into her room. That's what we want to do for our kids, right? We want to give them our presence and our soothing function until they have enough of it that it becomes their own voice. That's what these early years are about. And if a kid can access a soothing part of a parent through a voice, in some ways while you're not there, is kind of. It's really win, win for everyone because you could, like, be on the couch watching a movie and enjoying yourself while your daughter's actually doing some major regulation work.

The interesting thing is I do try to remind her of her capabilities all the time, and it is not a struggle to do that. This girl, at 6 years old wanted to keep this other foster dog we had. And I said the thing that everybody says, which is, if you can take care of this dog, we can keep it. And by God, for the last four years, she. Three years, she has gotten up every morning and she feeds them. She makes sure they pee, she feeds them at night. I mean, she does it like she, she is one of the most responsible children I have ever come across. Like, if I had to ask her to, like, if we were in a bind and I had to be like, drive my car up the street, I actually think she might be able to do it sincerely.

But.

But when it comes to, like, I'll say I want to go next door for a cup of sugar or something. She will. And she's eight and she's almost nine. I think that's a fully capable free range parenting type to be like, you can be alone for 20 minutes, 100%, you know, and she's got WI fi on her ipod, so she can text me, like, everything's covered. And it, she will not allow it to happen. And she says, I know I'm capable of it, but I don't like it. And I wonder how I encourage a little more separation so that she can see her vast capabilities.

Yeah, well, I don't. I've known you for, you know, I don't know, 16 minutes. So I take all this with a grain of salt. But my guess is with doing what you do, you have to keep your kids pretty close that like, you're, you're, there's like, you're, you have to be aware of them. Like, there's different levels of security different families need to take. So in any family I've worked with where that's the case, there are kids are 100%, understandably, a little more anxious about separation because the world doesn't actually feel as safe as it might to another kid. There's more concerns involved. So I do think it's this. This tricky dynamic of how do I help my kids say, no, I. I.

Know you could walk right there.

Like, that's okay. But in some ways they've internalized a message. Again, understandably, that makes them think that the safest place in the world is right next to my parent. I don't know if you already use song, but to me, song is such a great way to get into that space. Right. And. And made up songs. Right. So it makes me think about, like, how far away she could be when you're practicing. Like, I don't want you to go. You cannot go to the neighbor's house without me. But I wonder if you could go.

To like that blade of grass, right?

And there's like a little song you can sing. I don't know. I can imagine singing. You guys are the song people, not me. So. But it would be something like, I can move a little further and take a deep breath. I can move a little further and take a deep breath.

I don't know.

Something like, that's like the basis of, you know, Daniel Tiger is also such a wonderful show, which was the reinvention of Mr. Rogers and a great show that my. And so my littlest one is just a fireball Tasmanian devil opposite in every possible way, has none of the same issues. And so we have completely different parenting techniques. We cannot use the same techniques for them at all. So my husband and I are constantly going like, okay, well, but which one is that? Because yelling. Because we walk into the room in a very different way. But she took a lot of the Daniel Tiger phrases because that was sort of hurt when she was in preschool and. And would sing them when she was. Oh, yeah, she used to sing the one that goes, stop, stop, stop. It's okay to feel angry, but it's not, not, not okay to hurt someone. And that is literally exactly like. And. Cause I'll bring Jackie into the conversation here since we're talking about what you can do with these songs is like, the idea of Daniel Tiger was so prominent in at least my mind when Jackie was developing this, because each of the songs that are in Do Re and Me have a different Emotional lesson to them. Like the one that I think I referenced before about, you gotta listen to your body when it's trying to talk to you. But it's a hook that you actually might want to sing that will. So rather than making up the songs by watching the show, if you're overhearing it with your kid, I mean, Jackie, you can speak to it because you wrote all 52.

You know, there's a song in the show. It's like, this is how you Wait, wait, wait. Give your wings a shake, shake, shake. And it's like a little disco song about waiting. And so when your kids need to wait, it's no longer like, oh, I'm freaking out. It's like, all right, well, then sing. Wait, wait, wait.

Also, there's another great song that Jackie wrote, which, like, the emotional lesson was about, like, when something bad happens. Like, when something that you don't want to have happen happens. Like Rain on my Parade. Because it starts raining in the show, and she's about to have a picnic. And Jackie wrote this great song that goes, rain, rain, rain, you can stay the sun will come out another day. And it's just like this sort of acceptance mode of that. Yeah.

So I just flipping like how much rain stinks on its head. Rain's the best. And we're always like, as kids, it's like, rain, rain, go away. And this is more just like, no, this is. We actually. We kind of love this. There are songs about insecurity. My character, Ray, has a little moment where she tries out for this. She wants to be part of the Flamingo Go's dance troupe. But they're big, tall, gorgeous flamingos, and she's a hummingbird. And so she's just like, forget it. I'm too small and nobody can see me. And I don't even know why anybody would want to see me up there with those big, beautiful flamingos. I mean, I'm so miniature, no one even knows I'm even there, so just forget it. And her friends try and make her big and put a big bow on her hair. They try and put her on stilts, and then I'll have chills. And then ultimately she just has to be herself and fly next to the flamingos, and then everybody can see her. And it's a song about acceptance. And look at me little me too small for anyone to see that I'm up here on this stage. And that one's to, like, the. The vibe of. That one's actually, like, kind of queen. Just like, all big Harmonies and stuff, but that's not the point. But it's. There's a lesson in. In every single song. And we had our work cut out for us because every episode, as KB said, is a musical genre, a musical lesson, and an emotional lesson. And when the three of those things married, which was often, I think, is when our show is really at its best.

I'm curious if you guys have. Is there a song that speaks to you most personally or that you could have really used as a kid?

Funny you're asking that because I get chills every time I talk about, look at me, little me. Because Ray is me. I mean, once they realize once I started voicing it, that's why she became a hummingbird. Because I have attention problems even into adulthood and I'm just a hummingbird. I'm going. I'm always doing.

I talk a ton.

I'm snacking a ton. And a lot of the things that I am Ray is. And I think it might be an overstatement, but I don't think it is to say that I really worked through some childhood stuff in the making of this show because I was watching this little bird that is me. It's hard, it's confusing because there's a character named me, but I was watching little Ray, who is me, Jackie go through things and have her friends support her and overcome these things and overcome feeling insignificant and feeling not seen. And it was really. It was really powerful as a grown up. I think I may. I think I probably got those lessons as a kid, and I think so many of them are going to be so hopefully so valuable to the kids watching because, like, you know, we said earlier with the sneak teaching, I don't even think the goal is that they're not even going to notice what we're instilling in them.

Well, what's funny is we both were on this road of, like, how do we reduce these big lessons, these big sort of psychological lessons into tiny little songs? And Jackie and I both felt the same thing. We were like, huh. I need to be reminded of that today. Like, a lot of these need reiteration. There's one song that's. That goes like, together, we're not alone. And that hook always stayed with me because that's the truth.

If you're.

If you're feeling lonely, if you're together, you're not alone. And just like, it's so simple but kind of profound.

Yeah. You know, one of the things that I always notice is the things that we feel like our kids need Most always end up touching us as parents too. So it makes me wonder, you know, if the parents will end up also just singing the jingles away from like singing the songs away from their kids. Right.

For our own, that was one of the major goals musically. So hopefully energetically and emotionally that'll happen as well. But you know, musically one of the major goals was to make a show that the parents could sing along to as well and not want to put the tablet in the microwave.

Yeah, exactly.

Dr. Becky, I have one more question for you. One more parenting during our session.

So are you going to bend while we're Kibi?

I think so. I believe so, yes. So it's more prominent with one kid, but it does happen with both. So because I am an outgoing person and because my job requires me to be so and not, you know, not, not say hi to someone on the street. If they say hi. I have to be a responsible, polite, well mannered human being. There are some times in which my kids are with me and they're engaged. Let's say someone says like, oh, what grade are you in? And I'm talking to another adult and I'm with my child. And this is something I take very seriously. What's my story and what's your story? Because I don't really have the right to comment on your story. Your story is yours. But I do have the right to have my story. And when I'll say, like, oh, this is, you know, Delta, she's in first grade and she will become so angry and want to cover my mouth because I told that detail and I'm wondering how you would handle that because I'm caught between really wanting to respect her. If someone says don't say a detail about me, then I want to respect that. But at the same time, as a six year old, I don't know if you get to edit the way that adults are talking to that extent.

So, and I'm guessing in that moment she doesn't want to answer the question herself. That's what is that part of it?

Yes. And she, she doesn't want to answer it and she does not want me to answer it either.

So I don't know if there's one way forward. I actually think you're going to get the most bang for your buck and the kind of play you can do around that outside of the moment. Like, I feel like there's always these hard moments, like whatever we do in the moment, we say it, we don't. It's probably less relevant than I would I actually think that would be like a really helpful thing to role play if you don't already, not to get her to talk, but actually just to.

See, well, like what could I do.

And ask her, what do you think I should do? I mean I do get a lot of, I get a lot of help from them and like what do you think I should do here? And whenever I've had like mom fails or you know, things I've been working on and I mean like my gut is telling me what it is psychologically is that, that I'm in an interaction with an adult that she doesn't know. And so rather than, you know, to be involved in that conversation, she wants to go into shutdown mode because it's too much for her. She doesn't know this person and she probably doesn't want to talk. She doesn't want me to stop to talk to them. So rather than go into shutdown mode, what she wants to do is be an observer. And by, by them asking the details, which is just another friendly adult who doesn't know a kid being like, oh, what's your name? How old are you? They're incorporating her in it and she has decided that that moment in her brain is that she is an observer. And they're forcefully pulling her in so it feels more combative to her.

I also think as a last thought, I can imagine you saying in public, Delta takes her time. Like she'll, she'll share that when she's ready. Or like kind of going back to that song. Like, you know, Delta knows her body. She'll, you know, she'll, she'll share the.

Information that's actually, that feels the most right to me is maybe I'll even run that buyer and say, is this a solution? Like, hey, when you open my mouth, what if I said Delta takes her time. She'll answer if and when she's ready and then leave it up to you. Because like, to be honest, I really don't care if the other person knows her age or grade. I'm just trying to be a well mannered individual. And I don't, I'm over the point of like my kids are embarrassing. I don't project like they're their activities and emotional states are theirs. Mine are mine. I want to be supportive. So that's actually a great one. I'll say, what if I did this? Do you think that or any other.

Solutions would help you?

Exactly.

I'll definitely venmo you after this.

Thank you Kristen and Jackie for spending some time with me for talking about the dynamics in your home and for sharing details and giving us all a preview of some amazing new songs. In your new show, we covered so many things. Let me tie it all together with three takeaways. 1. Music is a powerful way to connect with our kids. When we sing, especially in tough moments, we help the body regulate and also we have something to do so we can stay grounded and and not be swept away in our own emotional experience. Try singing with your child today in some tough moment or make up a song together that connects you. 2. Our kids are unique and might cope differently than us. They may have different needs than we do. They may be outgoing and love talking to people, or our kids might be hesitant and need more time to warm up. Learning to support our kids and in all the ways they're different from us is so challenging for me too, but also so rewarding. 3. You are not alone. There's not one parent out there who isn't struggling with something. So the next time you're in a tough moment, take a deep breath. Imagine this community of parents surrounding you, saying to you, I know. I've been there too.

We're going to get through this. Thanks for listening to Good Inside. Let's stay connected@goodinside.com you can sign up for workshops and subscribe to Good Insider, my weekly email with scripts and strategies delivered right to your inbox. And for more ideas and tips, check out my Instagram Dr. Beckyoodinside. Good inside is produced by Beth Rowe and Brad Gage and executive produced by Erica Belsky and me, Dr. Becky if you enjoyed this episode, please take a.

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