Deep Dive: Two Moms With Different Parenting Styles Raising a Strong-Willed Child

You're listening to good inside with Dr. Becky. I have so many ideas, strategies and scripts to share with you right after a word from our sponsor. Hi, I'm Dr. Becky and this is Good Inside. I'm a clinical psychologist and mom of three on a mission to rethink the way we raise our children. I love translating deep thoughts about parenting into practical, actionable strategies that you can use in your home right away. One of my core beliefs is that we are all doing the best we can with the resources we have available to us in that moment. So even as we struggle and even.

As we are having a hard time.

On the outside, we remain Good inside. This week I'm going to be doing something a little bit different, but not to worry, you'll end this episode with just as many takeaways and strategies as any other one. I'm talking with Jessica and Joanna about their five year old daughter, Jada. Jada is full of energy, full of ideas. She's very strong willed and these are things her moms love about her. And yet, not surprisingly, they're also qualities that lead to some challenging moments around listening and cooperation. Jessica and Joanna also share with me that they were raised very differently than the way they are raising their child. This leads to some struggles and it also leads to some challenging moments between them as a couple as they're at different places in their own parenting journeys and what feels, feels right and comfortable to them. So we jump in, discussing all of these dynamics, parenting a strong willed child, being a pivot point in intergenerational patterns, being a cycle breaker, and managing couples dynamics. When you and your partner are on different pages about parenting, let's jump in.

We are obviously two moms who are trying to do the best we can. Right. We have a lot on our plate. You know, we've had some challenges with Jada, which is obviously why we want to be here and also to see if, you know, our story could help others in our situation or in our culture. Because I was discussing with Joanna that the culture that we come from, what we're actually doing right now is not normal. Right. In the Latin American community, you're taught that sharing these things as far as when you're a kid is not, it's not normal. Right. Normally as a kid, you're obedient, you do what you're told. And so, you know, we want to share that part, our story in that sense and how that transforms into us parenting. Right. And also our differences. You know, Joanna has a way of, of thinking and I have Another way of thinking. And, you know, I've been trying to. To do a lot of what we call parenting fitness. Right. I'm trying to learn new ways because I feel that the way I was raised is not the ideal way. Not that my parents were bad, but just simply evolving to be better parents.

So part of what you're saying, I think, is just talking here together with me in a way, almost airing your dirty laundry or kind of speaking about. Okay. Is forget even what we're going to talk about with Jada. That's almost secondary to. We are here to talk about difficult things. We are here to kind of be vulnerable and be honest. And just the act of doing that is already doing something that's pretty new and probably, therefore kind of scary or uncomfortable.

Exactly. Yeah.

I feel nervous and. Because it's like, I was raised in Ecuador, and the way they raised us is like, the way I'm trying to do with Jada. Like, if Jada doesn't want to do anything, I will say, okay, if you don't do this, you're just not gonna get tv. In my case, it was different. It was like, okay, if you don't do your homework, you're just not gonna go outside and play. To me, that was like, I definitely has to do my homework because I really want to go oxide. That's how I'm kind of raising Jada, and I'm very strict, and I think that's where we clash. Yeah. Because Jessica loves to talk. I. I am more like. I changed my voice to Jane.

I'm like, no.

And you have to do this and that. And then I don't know if I'm doing it right or wrong, but it works. Sometimes it works. So that's where I guess we need help.

The first thing I want to say is, thank you so much for doing something that's so uncomfortable. I think that whenever we make a change, whenever we do something that is kind of a pivot point intergenerationally, like, I'm the one in my family who's doing this differently. People have generally thought about it this way, and I'm thinking about it another way, or I'm not even sure if I want to parent differently, but I'm at least here to talk about it. It does feel really uncomfortable because we're making a change, but we also feel the weight of this intergenerational pattern. And to shift something to be the pivot point is kind of epic. Right. I always think that's like, an epic role.

So if we're Thinking about what we want to pivot to. We have to understand what we're pivoting from. So, Joanna, let's start with you. Tell me if I've got this right. It seems like in your upbringing, compliance was the goal for you. There was no room for pushback, no.

Room for a mom. I don't want to.

Or no, not now.

I'll do it later, or I'll do it when I want to do it. Kind of at the end of the.

Day, you learned that to thrive in your family, you had to listen to the adults right away.

Yes. You couldn't say better.

So here's something that strikes me right off the bat. We're here to talk about Jada, about how to kind of manage tricky situations with her. But.

But if we zoom out, there's so much more at play here. We're talking about the influence of our own childhoods.

We're talking about culture.

We're talking about intergenerational change. We're talking about how do we communicate with our partners when there's differences between us or we want different things. All of that kind of comes alive.

And is present in these moments that are really challenging with our kids, where we also need kind of some strategies and ideas to intervene in in that exact moment.

So what I'd love to do next is I'd love you to just tell me a little bit more about your amazing daughter. And from there, I think we'll watch a lot of those themes come alive.

Jada, she's one of a kind. So Jada is being raised by, obviously, two moms and also two grandmas. Our moms are very important in. In the role of our family, and because we work a lot, and they're there always to be there for us and to be there with Jada, so. Which is a beautiful thing, right? And we're so grateful to have that. But I also do believe that four women, one child. You create someone who is constantly the center of attention and wants to be the center of attention, Spoil baby. And she, you know, she likes to get her way as a result of being the center of all of our lives. When she doesn't get her way, it could get very, very ugly. And it could be just mundane things. It could be something she wants to eat. Whatever the case it is, she makes it her way. Even when we're planning our day and we structure, this is what we're gonna do, Jada. We're gonna do this, this. And she will always say, nope, I want to do it, Jada. Way, this is Jada's plan. Right. And so it's very, it's like, I don't know if it' control thing. I, I think about it a lot and I, I wonder are we controlling her too much where she feels she needs to gain that control or is it just part of her, who she is or it's part of how we're raising her. But it's very exhausting as a parent because some battles we pick because they're important. Like no, you cannot have chocolate right before bed. That's just non negotiable. But some battles we don't pick. Like if you want to wear the pink shirt to school today with the green pants. I'm not going to fight that battle. Fine, wear what you want to wear. So it just becomes exhausting as a parent and it's hard sometimes on the marriage also because Joanna wants to do it this way and I like to talk it through to find a solution and hear her out and try to get to a compromise. Even though I think in life it's.

Going to be a good thing for.

Her as a parent is very, very challenging.

Jade is a kid who, she sounds really strong.

Really?

Yes, yes. She knows what she wants and she's not afraid to express it.

Not a friend.

And you're right. That type of quality is right. It's so much of what so many of us want for our kids when they're older. But we have to live through it for a lot of years.

Yes.

It's so tiring.

So tell me a story. I want to hear a specific situation where all of this comes to life.

Where strong minded Jada is at a moment with you. It feels really hard and I want.

To hear some details and we can brainstorm together some strategies to use in.

The moment and out of the moment.

So we can figure out how to help these moments feel better and happen less frequently.

I'll give you an example.

Great.

I pick her up. Or let's say Joanna picks up. I'll just give you my personal pick her up from school. We like to do a lot of things right after school because if we wait too long, she's too tired. So bath as soon as we get home, a light snack, play, read books, depending on the weather, if we're going out or not. And dinner and then bedtime shortly after when we pick her up, I discuss to her this is the plan. She likes plants.

Right.

She likes to know what we're going to do next. And I like to solidify it. So there's no issues. So we go through the pen, and she says, no, mommy, I don't want to get home and take a shower. I want my snack. I want to read books. I want to play, then have dinner and then take a bath. Well, that doesn't work for us, because I know what happens if we do that. But that could lead to a complete meltdown. Something as simple as that becomes a heroic effort. And then at one point, I guess my patience also is just tapped, and so I become now a tyrant. Okay, Bath or consequence. Right. Like Joanna was saying, either we do this, or there's gonna be a consequence. And then I feel guilty because I'm like, this is. This is not the way I want to do things. But it's been 45 minutes, and I can't get my kid in the shower. Like, yes, it's.

What am I doing wrong here? My first reaction to hearing this is just, you sound incredibly human. We're also saying we want our kids, I think, and with a kid like Jada to develop two different skills. We want them to have the skill of speaking their mind, knowing what I want, and feeling like it's okay to speak up for it. We also want to have the skill of tolerating when things don't go their way. So if you think about what we're saying, those absolutely, I think, are two important life skills and are challenging to develop at the same time. Most kids kind of are better at one relative to the other in their childhoods, before, hopefully, they learn the other side, they're either better at speaking up for what they want and kind of putting themselves out there. And then parents would say, yeah, my kid needs to work on the kind of tolerating when things don't go her way. Or parents will say, my kid is pretty acquiescent. My kid seems to be pretty easy. And, oh, if I think about the other side, yeah, my kid's not always so good at standing up for himself. Right. So it's important to know that those are both life skills. But very few of us, even in adulthood, can perfectly balance both of them. I think that's a good framework to even think about this. Jada has very well developed speaking up for herself skills and not as well developed tolerating when things don't go her way skills. Right.

So that's perfectly said. Perfectly.

Right. Yes. So that's the side of things we want to work on while not losing. You sound like four women in your house. Five with Jada. Like, strong women. Right. I see you. You look like strong women. We don't want her to lose that. Right?

So, Jessica, tell me where you are. Give me an image. You say something to Jada, she resists. And then we'll jump in together from there.

So in the car. Well, I'm planning out the next four or five hours together. And she, as she says in the car, no, mommy, I want. I want to play first and then take a shower. So in the car. It's a very short car ride.

Yep.

I tried to say, no, this is what we're going to do. I know you want to do the other thing first, but this is what we're going to do. Because if we don't take a shower, we can't continue the rest of our activities. So as soon as we walk in the door, okay, Jada, let's go straight to bath. And then that's when the tension starts. She runs away from me. She goes and grabs a snack. And then I feel myself repeating and repeating. And then that's just. That's how it happens.

I want to talk about something to almost visualize together. And I think it'll be applicable to so many situations outside bath. Also, we need to notice whether we're in the mode of it's me against my kid or it's me and my kid against a problem. Right? So I know for me it's really easy in the situation to be like, oh, my child's running away from me. Oh, my child's not listening. And maybe I'm not saying it, but what I'm thinking is my child's the problem. Like, why is my child such a problem? Right? And our kids feel like that. Right? And I'm sure in your marriage too, the two of you know whether you're talking about a problem to each other in a way where it's like, you're the problem. Can't you just be more like me? Or can't you just fix it versus hey, what is. Right.

Yes, yes, Right.

Exactly. Our spouse houses are always the problem. Why don't they just become more like us? So annoying. I think that's number one to notice that mode. So to me, interacting with Jada in a way where Jada's the problem would sound like this. Jada, it's bath. It's bath. This is crazy. You're going to get a snack. We talked about this a million times. Come on, it's bath. I can do that really well. Because this is how I usually approach my kids the first time. And then I catch myself, right? And they'll Say, wait, I'm doing that my kid's a problem thing versus talking to Jada in a way where it's me and Jada against a problem. It might even be before I go into the door. And I'd say, oh, you know what I'm thinking about? It's gonna be bath time. And here's something about bath time after school with me. I know you don't love it. Oh, I'm wondering if there's anything we can do to make this a little easier. Because here's something that's not gonna change. We're not gonna change. Doing bath first, it's just not one of the things. But there's so many things we could change, right? So before I go further, there's a we right now. Me and Jada getting to the bath is a problem. Like, we both probably have some part in that dance, right? So rather than seeing it as a Jada problem, it's something that's happening between us. It's not even that I really mean this. I don't think it's your fault either. I just think it's something that gets co created, you know, in our relationship. Then to me, whenever I approach my kids like that, somehow I find my playfulness, right? In my first example, there's no playfulness. It's just like, come on, stop running away or you're doing this. It's just so frustrating. And actually, when we're in a me versus you situation with someone, there's never any playfulness because our bodies can't find playfulness when we feel antagonistic towards someone because we actually feel like there's a threat, right? And we can only be playful when we feel safe. And safety often comes with connection, right? So I could see if this is you, Jessica, you saying this to her toward the door. And what might make it more fun. Pause. So many times. Our kids will actually generate solutions or ideas when we include them as a partner. I could also see myself saying this. I can say, look, there is something unfair about this. I'm asking you to do something that's really not fun, that you don't really want to do. I guess you could ask me to do something I really don't want to do. And then I'd probably plant it, like, please don't make me hop on one foot all the way to the shower. Please don't make me walk backwards. I'd probably, like, hit into a door and I'd probably just, like, fall and like, okay, I'll do something you don't want me to do, but not walking backwards. Just like anything but that. Now, if your kid is like my kid, they're gonna say walk backward, right? Of course. And then you can be like, oh, and then watch this, right? Oh, no. Anything but walking backwards. Jada, I told you, not walking backwards. The only thing I don't want to do, I really don't want to walk backwards. I think I may, like, run away when you. I just. Really. Fine, deal. I walk backwards while you get to walk forward into the bath. I don't know. I might even be able to get there before you. I'm pretty. I don't know if I'm pretty good at walking back, but I think I could. Then I would start doing it. All of a sudden, this whole moment changes from who's in control to how can we be connected and have fun with each other? And then I. I'd own that even more. If it was me, I'd probably fall. Of course I'd let my kid win. Oh, I'm going to get you tomorrow. I wonder what you're going to make me do tomorrow. And we're playing around. And now instead of who's winning, who's it? Whenever you're in a who's winning, who's in control battle, nobody wins. Nobody wins. It's just not a relationship at that point. It's one person against another. Right. So I think that's gonna be a theme as we keep exploring this. Like, whenever it feels like it's me against Jada, the answer probably isn't, she wins or I need to win. The answer is probably, how can we get back to being on the same team?

That's enlightening.

When we're on the same team as someone, no one's in control. No one's singularly in control. So even when you say, what are you gonna make? You're giving her power without having to give up your power.

Right.

And I think that in our relationships and marriages and work with our kids, that's what happens in our healthiest moments is it's not I have to not exist. So you can, you know, be in charge, and it's not that you have to not matter. So I can be in charge. Like, we can both matter. We can both have a voice. Right?

Of course.

And I think this helps her see that. Right. By. By living through that. Jada feels like the type of kid who needs five minutes at least, of I am in control of my parents time. And, like, carved out that way. Where I would say to her, isn't being a kid like really hard sometimes. Like, do you ever feel like the adults are just like telling you what to do? They're like, oh, it's school time. Oh, it's time to have breakfast. Oh, it's time to be done with breakfast. Oh, it's time to put on your shoes. Oh, you need a jacket. Wait, you don't need a jacket. Put the jacket in your backpack. Did you get a water bottle? Time to go. See you later. Like and now we're just at nine. Annoying to be a kid because if I step back I think we all forget that when we're adults we think being a kid is easy. I don't know one adult who thinks their own childhood was easy. I don't know. I don't know one. We have a lot of empathy for our own childhoods but we forget to transfer that being a kid stinks. You know, if I want to wake up and eat KitKats for breakfast every day, I can do that. That's pretty awesome. My kids can't. That kind of stinks for them, right? So kids are even kids who are so strong minded we forget they aren't in control of their destiny so often. There's so many things we dictate and kids who kind of have difficulty tolerating when they're not in control I think have a lot of fun with this time that they can dictate things to their parents. So similar to what we said in the bath situation, just to say so I think you should have a couple minutes where you can tell me anything and I have to do it. And then I tell my kids often but it can't involve food because I don't want them to just tell me like a million things I have to eat and you know, be sick and it, it, it has to be safe. And it's actually powerful because there was one time, same thing my kids hate doing shower or bath early. And I remember when my son said to me, go take a shower now.

And I had just like blow dried.

My hair and you know, I was like, I really don't, I really don't want him. He's like, well this is my time. And honestly it really made me realize like, oh, that's your life all the time. I always tell you when to shower, right? And then I did and, and then like my hair. And I was like, I wear a shower cap. And he was like no. I was like, oh shoot. You know, like it was really inconvenient. So I think just as a baseline again going To. Well, there are these in the moment strategies and then there's out of the moment strategies. Right. So that's an out of the moment strategy. Just to change the baseline. Like, let's give her those moments and act it out.

Be resistant.

Oh, I really don't want to. Okay. I guess I'm going to try to do this right. Really, really act that out.

Yeah, she would love that. She would love that. Like heaven for her.

Play is where kids learn so much. And play is kind of a world that's close enough to them, but also just far enough away from them that you can really teach a lot of skills. Right. Because it's not so close that we're kind of teaching a kid something like we would in a class, but they explore and play. So here's what. I mean, here's what I would do. Let's say she likes to play with dinosaurs. Okay. And there's a stegosaurus and a T. Rex. Okay. I'm just making this up. And there's two figurines, and she's playing with them. I'd introduce lightly just these themes of what she has a hard time with. So maybe they're playing and you're the stegosaurus. And stegosaurus says, I'm in charge of every single thing today. I'm gonna. We have to go here, and then we have to build, and then we have to go to the store, and then, you know, and maybe she even plays along. Okay. And no, that's not enough. I want to be in charge of everything. I'd act out a dinosaur that is kind of like Jada, right? Like she wants to do everything.

Yeah, we have done that the nighttime.

She likes that.

Yeah.

That's awesome.

I'm so glad you're already doing that. And just see what she does.

Right. Because so many times kids will play around with coping skills, and they need to kind of play around with it to kind of get some mastery in play that they can't yet access themselves. So what would be great, right, If Jada, you know, we want, in some ways, Jada to be the other stuffed animal that then says, wait, I have ideas too.

And then you can play out.

Oh, it's true. But it's so hard when someone wants to do something that they want to do. Because then in that moment, it's like, I'm not doing what I want to do, and it's so hard. Okay, I guess you can do something. And I'll wait my turn and I'll do my idea next. There's no one right way. But the idea in general is, how can I use play to just explore these themes of power, of waiting, of frustration, Right. But not do it in a way that's almost too adult, which would be talking about it directly. Kids don't learn things by analyzing it with them, with our words. Right. They kind of have to experience it. So I'm going to ask you a pointed question, Joanna. I like to go right for it. What happens for you when Jada doesn't listen? When you're like, it's time to clean up the room and she just ignores you, or she doesn't listen for me.

And that's where the culture come. When that used to happen to me, that my mother used to say, joanna, do this. And I would listen to her. She would, okay, Joanna, you just don't gonna go outside and play with your friends. I knew the consequence. So I feel like Jada, she's not afraid. So to me, that's what it comes to my mind. That if you have five, she just want to do whatever she wants. I can't imagine when she's gonna be 14 or 15 right now. Her personality is. It's my way. I do it when I want to. And that's what I see on her, and that's what it gave me. Afraid that she's only five.

Part of a story that gets evoked in you and not a story meaning made up. It's your story, right? Is I used to be scared of my mom. Like, I would. I was scared, right? And I think a lot of us were raised in that way. One of the reasons I'm not a big fan of consequences, not to say in my own moments of frustration, I don't just throw them out there, because of course, I do, you know, is our kids define what love is based on their relationship with us. And how close love is to fear, I think is something we all think a lot about, right? Like, I don't think any of us would feel good if our kids in their 30s, like, oh, I love this person. I'm getting married to that person also terrifies me. They kind of go together. We'd be like, whoa, whoa. Like, it doesn't have to be like that. I don't. I don't feel great about this marriage. Right? Um, and I don't think anyone consciously says that with words. But in our early years, in our kids early years, we are wiring them for their expectations in the world, right? What should I expect when I feel close to someone? What should I expect in A relationship that is called a loving relationship. What is allowed, what is not allowed, what is normal. Right? And actually, this is such an amazing way to come back to how we began. You see what happens in your body when you do something that's not considered normal, which is talking to me about the stuff that's really going on in your house and talking about feelings and talking about. Right. Your. You. You knew you were nervous not only probably because of your brain, but mostly your body. Right? Like, your body, like, felt it. When we do something new, our body actually tries to stop us just because we've learned to do whatever was familiar. So in that way, I always think with our kids, what a gift it is to give them early wiring that actually supports the kind of healthy relationships we would want them to have later on. And I think all of us would probably say healthy relationships are one where, of course, sometimes there's anger and there's disappointment. But I think a lot of us would probably agree that fear is something we don't want wired next to love and intimacy and connection, that we don't want our kids. Bodies say, oh, this is what I'm used to. I would actually want my kids, if they end up being in a relationship with someone who scares them, to have the reaction almost you did when we started, which is my body saying, oh, no, no, no, no, no. I don't know if I want this. I would want that to feel different to them. So let's, like, explore that for a little bit. Jessica, what would it be for you? What. What gets evoked for you?

You think when she's tampering everything you just said. Because, like, I. We had mentioned our upbringing is. I hate to say it, but you fear your parents. Like, you do what they tell you to do. You don't create any resistance. And so we see our kid, that we can't even get her to brush her teeth. When we tell this. Brush her teeth, we feel that. And she goes in a tantrum. We feel that. I guess it's out of control. We feel like, why is our child not listening when we tell her to do something? Yeah, yeah. Everything you just mentioned is pretty on.

Yeah.

The same thing happened to me. I mean, until now. I mean, you know, to me, it's like the way she's acting. My mother in Ecuador, she wouldn't use a. We call Sandalia, which is the sandal. She just wouldn't go like. And I wouldn't be, wow, I don't want. I don't want that sandal to be.

But we don't do that.

No.

No, we don't do that. And my mother did it.

You know, she only probably did probably three times that I remember. But it helped.

I mean, but it's terrible. I mean, it's just, you know, to.

Me, yeah, it was terrible, but at the same time, it helped me a lot.

I don't know. Helping. I mean, I try to convince her that that didn't help her. It got her mom to do what she wanted her to do in the moment. But there is an issue behind that. I mean, I. I speak for myself, too, because I had the same upgrade upbringing, and it wasn't considered abuse, and I wouldn't consider or. Or any of that to that extent, but it was a different form of parenting. And all our friends in our same age group would say the same. And, and everyone say, well, we turned out right. But my answer is we turned out right is not good enough. Because I do think we all have underlying issues and we want to do a better job. We don't want to do our.

I don't feel that way.

But. But that's. That's my, My battle with Joanna. Right. Like, obviously we don't hit, and that's off the chart. We. That's. We know that. And we've talked to Mai's.

The tone, just the way I talk to her.

Well, the tone and that, but it's also consequential. Like, she does do this or you don't get this. So it's that fear factor that you were talking about.

But I.

Give me my result.

Yeah.

It gets you the immediate result, but it's not the long term, like what Becky is saying, you know.

Right. This is such a dynamic topic because it's just important to reflect on what do I mean, working right. Because there's behavioral compliance. My kid does what I say. That's one measurement of working right. And I think, Joanna, that's what you're getting at. It works, right, Is she does the thing that I say, she complies. And I think what you're saying, Jessica, is the behavior in this moment is different from whatever's happening for my child and whatever skills she needs to learn or her feeling connected to and safe in her family. And that's a little bit more what I'm going for. Her behavioral compliance is not. Not as much as the focus. Yes. So right now I could tell you one thing. I'm not going to resolve this conflict. And actually, I'm not. Right. And actually, between the two of you, it's important for you both to actually try to think of each other as kind of like living on a different planet about this. Right. I think this is true for most couple issues. And planets aren't wrong or right. They're. They're there. Right. And I think so often we think our job is to convince the other person why they should kind of come to our planet.

Right.

Versus kind of learning more about the customs of that other person's planet and trying to understand it. Because actually, when we do that, the person actually is more likely to visit our planet because they feel kind of the same things we're talking about with Jada. Right. They feel seen, they feel respected, and then they're likely to be a little bit more flexible. So that's one idea. I just love that idea. And I've used that a lot in my marriage and my best moments, which is like, let me just try to be like a naive scientist here. Like, tell me more about that. You said it worked for you. I think we both know. I want to say back to you, that didn't really work for you because there's these issues. But wait, that's probably not that helpful. Tell me more about that. How did that help you? Right.

And.

And then also Joanna to Jessica. So look, I can tell Jessica, you. You feel really passionately about us not using consequences or that the idea that my child complies maybe isn't a measurement of it working. So instead of me telling you why I don't agree with that, tell me more about why you think about that and then hold yourself to have some conversations like that without resolving it. There's no resolving it. Not for. And so much understanding has to be built before we can even have movement. So that's one. But here's another really concrete thing. I love parents to play around with because often in a family, there's someone who says, I'm more of a traditional disciplinarian, and the other one's softer and things like that. And we can get more and more rigid in our role when we see the other person in their role. Right. We often think, oh, I'm going to do this soft. And, you know, I'm going to talk to my kid. And that's just going to inspire my partner. No, it actually, for the partner's like, oh, they're doing that. I guess I'm going to do the opposite. It. Right. And vice versa. So it could be a kind of interesting experiment to just for one day or for an hour for Joanna to know Jessica is going to be much Less chatty with Jada. Like, when Jada doesn't get in the bath, she's not going to even do everything. Dr. Becky said one time she's going to say, you know what, Jada? It's bath time, and when you're ready to take the bath, I'll be there. And something like that, right? Nothing too mean, but just something that would be different. But then Joanna, on your side, when you ask her to clean up and she doesn't, you know, for that one time, Jessica's gonna witness you saying, oh, there's something about cleaning up that doesn't seem so good to you, you know? And both of you are gonna be like, who is this woman I married? What is this?

You know, she will be like that.

But. But to almost do it. Truly, you're not signing up for anything long term. You're just, in some ways, giving yourselves an opportunity, both of you, to explore a way of parenting that isn't what you traditionally do. And that's probably always useful to kind of have a little bit of that reversal. So to just see it and just like, how you started, that's going to be new. So it's going to feel bad and uncomfortable and unnatural to both of you. Right? But that's part of the point, is that you know you're doing something new when you have some of that feeling. I think it would be super helpful for you two to even leave today with a type of mantra that speaks to what's going on for you. Good parents have kids who don't listen, or good parents have kids who tantrum or I am a good mother who right now has a kid not listening. Her listening doesn't make me a better mother. Her not listening doesn't make me a bad mother. Because we need a reminder that we truly are good inside to be able to handle tricky moments and not react to our kids in a way that truly is just a way to get our own bodies back to, okay, this feels more comfortable because it's more familiar. In some ways, I think probably the more the two of you also can both do that. Validating for her. Like, you're talking about seeing what's happening, using playfulness and at times, holding a boundary, knowing that big tantrum's coming because you just know this is something I'm not yielding on. You're really balancing that. Sometimes she needs to feel in control, and sometimes it's okay for her to have a hard time when we're in control. Right? And she's just a kid. She's Gonna have those big emotional react for a little bit of time. What I would also use as a little bit of kind of a measure is sometimes I think the best measure for me is my own reaction with my kid when I start to notice that I can stay calmer with my kid's tantrums. And I can then say, I know what I want to do here. I feel like I have my feet on the ground, I'm calmer. That's when my kid really starts to absorb my own regulation, which is so key to them developing their own.

Okay, well, thank you, Becky. This has been so amazing. And, and obviously we're pointing out here all the differences. There's a lot of things that we do actually agree on. So just, just obviously we're being recorded. I don't want you to everyone to think, who's gonna listen to these people? Like, why are they even married? Like, we do have a lot of things that we do agree on, but we're being very obviously vulnerable here and talking about our weaknesses as parents. Right. And that's why, why this is so scary. But anyway, so hopefully somebody will listen to this and relate.

Right.

Is our hope and help them. Because you've given such great, great, you know, points and advice and so enlightening.

It is so vulnerable to speak and to speak honestly. And it's especially vulnerable when just the very act of doing that kind of goes against some of these lessons you've learned about what you're supposed to keep inside and what it's okay to verbalize. So for sure, thank you. And thank you.

Thank you, thank you.

Here too. And we'll apply.

We will apply.

Will you advise and keep you posted? I will do my best, I promise.

Please do.

I love talking with Jessica and Joanna. They were so open, so vulnerable, and therefore so brave. Such cycle breakers. And I know the conversation with them left me thinking so much about so many different important themes. So let me try to tie it together here with three different takeaways. First, if you're a cycle breaker, you're paving new pathways for your family and breaking intergenerational patterns. Take a moment, give yourself some credit, Take a deep breath and tell yourself this is an epic battle. It's hard work to be a cycle breaker and it's possible. Two, when you have a strong willed child, remember that we need to frame problems as me and my child against a problem, not me against my child. This way it feels like an us versus a relationship where the two of you are enemies. Three, it's hard to parent with someone who has a different history and different parenting tendencies. Notice if you and your partner have relatively rigid roles in your family. Maybe one of you is more of a disciplinarian and one of you is.

A little more playful and fun.

Talk to your partner about switching it up. Even plan this for one day. So if you're someone who usually keeps a tight schedule, one day say to your kids, hey, hey, let's go get ice cream before dinner. That would be fun, right?

Often when we're in rigid roles with.

Our partners, we tend to cling even more to our side and the gap between us gets exacerbated. It's really helpful to plan to switch this up to allow both partners to experiment with the other partner's common role and so your kids see each of you doing something a little bit different. There's so many benefits to this for you, for your partnership, and for the whole family system. If this episode is leaving you thinking about the gap between you and your partner in the way you approach parenting, check out my Couples Communication workshop. Before any of us are able to work through differences in parenting, we all have to learn to communicate in ways where we can actually talk effectively about tricky, conflictual topics instead of avoiding those topics or those topics leading to escalations.

You'll leave that workshop feeling equipped with.

Tools, strategies, scripts to improve communication so you can actually talk through the things that are on your mind. You can find that workshop and Many others@learning.goodinside.com Thanks for listening to Good Inside. Let's stay connected@goodinside.com you can sign up for workshops and subscribe to Good Insider, my weekly email with scripts and strategies delivered right to your inbox. And for more ideas and tips, check out my Instagram drbeckyoodinside. Good Inside is produced by Beth Rowe and Brad Gage and executive produced by Erica Belsky and me, Dr. Becky. Please rate and review our show. Let us know what you think and what resonated. I actually do read each and every review, so please know that your feedback is meaningful to me. Let's end by placing our hands on our hearts and reminding ourselves even as I speak struggle, and even as I have a hard time on the outside, I remain Good Inside.