Emily Oster and the Bad Therapy Conversation

I'm Dr. Becky and this is good inside. So some context for this episode. In the last number of weeks, I've been asked over and over what I think of this new book, Bad Therapy. It has definitely been a hot topic in parenting circles around the country. I've been asked about it over and over. And so rather than reading other people's coverage of it, I decided to pick up the book and read it myself. And after I finished it, I really wanted to talk about it. So I texted my friend Emily, Emily Oster, the Emily Oster professor of Economics at Brown, author of Expecting Better, Crib Sheet, the Family Firm and host of the amazing podcast Parent Data. And because I wanted to talk to her about it, I then decided, hey, why don't we kind of pause right now and instead of having a private conversation, share the conversation with you. So before we jump in, here's kind of the general premise of Bad Therapy. American kids are the saddest, most anxious, depressed and medicated generation on record. We are seeing a generation of parents simultaneously hyper fixated on the mental health and well being of their children. There has been an increased emphasis in the importance of feelings in parenting and education. And more kids are in therapy today than ever before. And what the author of Bad Therapy raises, what Abigail Schreier argues is, well, all of these parenting and educational development seem, seem positive on the surface. Is that really the case? And in her new book, Bad Therapy, why the Kids Aren't Growing up, she argues that these changes are actually directly contributing to kids mental health decline. Okay, Emily Oster and I are going to get into all of this right after this. Emily.

Hi, Becky. Hi, nice to talk to you. Thanks for texting me.

I know when, when something like big is happening in like our joint world, I'm always like, I have to reach out to Emily. I want to talk to her about this.

It's good. I'm excited to talk about this. It's a question that I've gotten a lot, also probably less than you. But this is out there. People wanna know, people wanna talk about it, they wanna hear.

So maybe we'll start general, then we'll dive specific and I'll ask you first and then I'm happy to answer too. What was your reaction from reading the book?

So I think what's really interesting and really valuable about the book is it comes into this space that I think a lot of people are now in, which is just recognizing that there is a pretty substantial trend over time in kids in mental health issues, that mental health, diagnoses have gone up a lot over time. And we started talking about this during COVID but it's not just Covid. Covid is a continuation of a trend. You have many people with different ideas about why this is so people will talk about. Jonathan Haidt talks about phones, wants to put this at the feet of phones and social media. This book puts it at the feet of therapy and sort of an overemphasis on feelings. That's an oversimplification, but that's a big piece of her argument. So what I think is really good about this whole space is that it has gotten people talking about this problem, which I think we can kind of all agree is a problem. What's hard, and I'm sure we will talk a lot about in this conversation, is when you have a long time trend, it's really hard to say that it's due to something in particular. Right. I mean, this is like my whole, my whole life is about talking about things that are correlations and things that are causations and one place.

Not your whole life, Emily, you are more than your data.

But one of the things that is most challenging is if you see a time trend in something, saying that that time trend is due to something in particular is an awfully large lift, partly because it's almost certainly true that this is not just due to one thing. But even if it were just one thing, how would you find that one thing? Since many things trend over time. So that's my broadest take on why this is an important question to ask and why it's a hard problem.

Yeah. And to me, what I see around me too is kids are really struggling and young adults are really struggling. And I think there's a lot of data to support that. I think you and I also see that around us. She's highlighting that. And I think that's so important for us to then be curious, like, well, why is this? And I think it is also interesting. We have parents who are focused on parenting in a way that I think a lot of generations before were not. And at the same time, we have these kids who are really struggling. So to me, any gap that can allow us say, like, well, what is going on here is. Is useful.

Yeah. You know, the word parenting is like, was not coined until the 1970s, and before that it was child rearing. And so this idea, like, people are, we're like, more involved. And I think that's, that's what she pulls out that strikes people as like, what is going on? Like, you know, my Parents did not pay. My parents are great. They're wonderful. They did not pay the kind of attention I do to my kids or curate the kind of experiences. And I think that's changed a lot over time. And it's like, what am I getting for that? You know, like, should my kids be really the happiest because of all of my focus on them?

That's right. Well, let's jump into that one. Cause she talks about that and I know you and I have privately talked a lot about that too. Making our kids happy. This is definitely a part of her book too, that we are so focused on our kids being happy. Which on the surface I think a reaction is like, all right, that's like, that sounds good, but it is actually so pernicious. It's actually a chapter in my book. So in that way, I think maybe our ideas around it are different, but the outcome is similar, which is that the more we focus on our kids being happy, the more we actually set them up to feel anxious and very kind of easily incompetent in the face of the distress that's inherent in life. So what do you think about that?

So she has a passage in the book about the idea of kind of being happy and this almost knee jerk statement like, of course we want people to be happy. And then she talks to someone who's like, but like, really, is that your primary momentary goal? And of course it's not. Right. Most of the things, even as adults that bring us the greatest joy and fulfillment and that we identify as the greatest pieces of our lives aren't delivering happiness like the way like a bath does or something, you know? Right. Like most of it is about fulfillment and what Jennifer Wallace would call mattering or something. Something that brings out our sense of being an important part of the world. That's not happiness in the kind of traditional way. And so we think about what we're delivering for our kids. I want my kids to feel content, fulfilled. But I'm not sure that I would necessarily want to describe it as I want them to feel happy. Because if you expect to feel happy all the time, you just. I mean, this is. She says, I think directly, like, if you expect to feel happy all the time, you're just going to be constantly disappointed 100%.

And you know, this idea just came to me right now where I think we have this, this new definition of happiness when we're focused so much on our kids being happy. Because I think saying I want my kids to be happy, it feels like a throwaway comment so I can kind of get away with saying that.

But I.

What I see actually is I want my kids to have an absence of discomfort and distress because if they're feeling uncomfortable and upset, I kind of have to tolerate discomfort and upset. And it's just kind of a focus right now on everybody in the family system getting out of there. There's like this phobia of discomfort. And when I think about the way that plays out in families, right. And then I think about what's really helpful long term for kids is being able to feel like it is okay to be me when I'm struggling with this. I actually have some type of motivation in this moment. Like I feel like I can get out of this or I'm going to figure this out. And by the way, the feeling I'm going to get when I finish this puzzle or finish this essay or even get through this hard period with my friend, that's going to be a really amazing feeling because it's the feeling of building competence, right. And when we remove all those in the name of I want my kid to be happy. I often think like we are stealing our kids learning we are stealing their sense of competence. And I feel like the word fragility is, you know, it's a somewhat bold word. But we are kind of sending them the message that they're fragile, which is something I think again, this book Bad Therapy touches on a lot.

I think she draws a line which I do see between the scaffolding that we provide that we may provide that lowers competence when kids are younger and then the issues that come up when they're older. So she's right. In this space of you need to work on kids being able to do things on their own when they're eight. So when they're 18 they can do that. And if you don't do that, then when they're 18, they will lack the competence to go to the store by themselves and purchase a sandwich. There's some amazing stories in the book in this space of lack of competence. And that's actually the piece of the book that I find most resonant is the idea of limiting kids ability to do stuff on their own. Whether it's sort of physical freedom outside the house, ownership over their own schoolwork, whatever it is, that those are things we've way dialed down to the detriment of a development of competence and problem solving because we're afraid that they'll feel sad or we're afraid they'll be scared, or we're afraid that they'll get kidnapped, even though there's kind of no evidence for that. Right.

And I think, you know, something I find useful and just very practical, you know, to say to kids is when they're doing something for the first time, the second time, the fifth time, it's still considered new. The way that is supposed to feel is hard and uncomfortable. There is literally nothing in the world we do that is worthwhile to figure out that is easy and therefore comfortable in the beginning. Like, the first time your kid, you know, does an errand on their own, they're gonna feel nervous. The first time your kid is trying to do some big multiplication sheet, they're going to feel frustrated. And I know saying to myself, wait, like, this isn't pleasant and my kid is feeling this exactly right. Actually allows me to say to them in that moment, yeah, like, you're nervous, or, yeah, this is hard. And I believe you. And it's actually the exact way you're supposed to feel like you're actually feeling this just. Just right. Actually brings down the heat in that moment. Whereas the opposite of, okay, I'll do it for you, or okay, then you don't have to do this. In some ways, what I'm actually saying to my kid is, you're not supposed to feel that discomfort. So the next time you feel it in different situation, you'll start to hear my voice saying, oh, no, I'm not supposed to feel this way. Then you think what you're doing is wrong, and then you have an extremely limited group of feelings, feel okay, and you have an extremely limited number of experiences and behaviors you're willing to take on.

So I find this so interesting because it gets to me exactly where you and this book would have a disagreement or where I think she might have a dis. Have a disagreement.

Great.

Which is that.

Bring it.

Both have the goal of getting kids to be able to. The next time something comes up, do it on their own. Right? That's the goal, and that's what's interesting to highlight. It's the same idea. I want the kid to understand that the next time they encounter the hard math problem, they are going to work through it on their own in a way or the fifth time or later that they'll be able to solve that problem or a version of that kind of problem by themselves. Your approach is in this acknowledgment of, like, this is hard, and that's how you should feel about it. Right. So it's not like, I'll do it for you and I just want you to be happy. It's. That's a feeling that you have, and that's the appropriate feeling to have here. And you need to do the homework while you have that feeling, because that's a feeling that you have when you haven't done something before. And that's great. I think she would come closer to, why are we acknowledging that feeling? Why are we spending time on this adult idea of kind of feelings and emotions? Just do the homework. Because it's your job to do the homework, and you do the homework, and that's your job. And at the end of the day, the homework is done, and maybe there's a little. Like, there's a punishment at the other end if you don't do it. But even putting that aside, that just. There's really no reason to acknowledge the feeling part of it. You should just do it because you do things. And that's what it is like to be an adult. So I'm curious how you react to that.

Yeah. Great. I love this setup. Okay, so one of the things that I think deeply relates to that is, do we have a hyper focus on feelings? Is there a such thing as a hyper focus of feelings? And to me, I would say, of course there is. Like, that of course is a real thing. But to me, it's about the how. And to me, the nuance is really important. And I also think there's always a middle between extremes. And. And that's often that. That often is, you know, something to consider. And there's often something Right about that. So let's say back in the day, someone was like, okay, if I told my parents I didn't know how to do this math problem, and I was kind of whining, they'd be like, go to your room, finish math, and the next time you whine, you're not gonna get dessert. I don't know.

Something like that.

Okay, so. And this is not in her book. So let's just. We're just riffing here. So to me, there's an extreme. That extreme is go produce the outcome, the feeling you're having. I'm just kind of ignoring. To some degree, I'm saying it's not real, or I'm just saying I don't freaking care. Right? And go figure it out. Okay, that's one extreme. I just wanna model the other extreme. Cause I just wanna be clear. I do think a lot of parents have overcorrected. And I would say it is, I don't know, equally. I don't know about the exact equivalence. But it is similarly unhelpful to kids. This math homework is so hard. And I know. And the things they give you is school. Like they don't know how busy you are. And. And look, I. I'm going to do this for you. Or. Right. Or maybe the kid's like, I don't know how to do it. I don't know how to do it. And I'm like, okay, stop, stop, stop, stop.

I'll just.

Let me just finish this part of you. I'll make your flashcards. I'll. I'll do it. And now you're okay, right? Okay. To me, there is that extreme. I have never said those words myself. I have never encouraged parents to say those things. I think that is extremely unhelpful. In that case, while the first thing is outcome that I expect from you without any acknowledgement about what's going on for you, or by the way, what's probably blocking you, which is the overwhelmed feeling, the other extreme is complete focus on what's blocking you without any. Not only pathway toward the outcome, but without simultaneously letting my kid know. I both see your feeling as real, and I also know as an adult, the feeling isn't forever. And you're going to be able to get past this because you're a competent human being. Validating feelings over and over without insisting some way, absorbing your belief in that person's competence or your hope that there's going to be another version or another side, I do think can create a tunnel vision into yourself and you become the feeling instead of the feeling being a part of you next to the competent version of yourself. That, to me, is the middle ground to be able to say and to make it super simple, this feels really hard to you, and I believe you. I wouldn't say that's the right feeling. The only reason I'd say that's the right feeling to my kid is because they're having it like that's happening in their body. It is what it is. It's not right for me to drop my phone, but if it happened, it's just reality. That's what I mean. That's right. So this is hard. And I know you can do hard things. This is a really tricky puzzle, and I'm not going to finish it for you because I know the feeling you're going to get when you finish it on your own is going to be so amazing, and I will not steal that from you. I know it's hard to go to the store for the first time and if it feels so hard to walk eight blocks by yourself, you know what I'll do? I will walk you one, or you can walk one and you can come back. You know why? I believe in your ability to make progress. And I know the biggest thing getting in your way is just not taking one step. And so I know if you take a few steps over the course of the next two weeks, you will be able to go and do that, and you're going to feel so freaking proud of yourself. And I can't wait for that moment. That is the approach that to me is in that middle, feelings matter. Feelings block our ability to get things done, and we need someone to acknowledge those feelings as real, while some simultaneously seeing a more competent version of ourself than we can often access in the moment, we're overwhelmed by a feeling. I don't know. Does that make sense?

Yeah, no, I think it does make sense. And I mean, I think part of it is exactly this. Like, it's very easy to caricature both sides, you know, sort of the extremes. And neither of the extremes is right. And most people would not sort of push in either of those. Push in either of those extremes, although one can arrive at the extremes inadvertently.

But here's the thing. One of the things that I think that. And we'll get to more parts of her book. There was so much about it I liked enough I wanted to talk about it, Right. And it really made me think. One of the examples she has in her book. And to me, this is where we fail to find the middle. And most of us, me too, by the way, we have a hard time holding two things as true. Right. That's why that's like such a core part of what I try to do. Two things can be true at the same time. So she talks about this example where empathy can lead us to make bad decisions. And she says, for example, you're empathizing so much with a really poorly performing employee that you fail to fire them. And the truth is, the organization would be better. Probably even that person would be better to have a, you know, fresh start somewhere else. This to me, stuck out so much. And I see this all the time with parents. They're like, oh, so you want me to empathize with my kid that they can't join a birthday party? Like, by the way, I'm still taking my kid to the birthday party. I can empathize with my employee and I can fire that employee. Like, I don't know why this happens all the time. So empathy With a poor performing employee is not a dangerous thing. If that empathy gets in your way of making a solid decision, I think it's really unfair to blame empathy for that. To me, that would be a failure of empathy and having boundaries at the same time.

I mean, I think this is where we get the slide from, you know, authoritative parenting to permissive parenting. Right. This is where we get into the kind of like, into, I want you to be happy or I want you not even happy. Like, I want you to be like, unbothered at all times. And that. That somehow is the goal. And then you're not setting boundaries.

That's right.

And then you're letting the feelings be more important than they. I mean, there are so many experiences with our kids where we make them do something they don't want to do because that's what the family is doing. And, you know, there's a question of to say, you know, well, we're gonna go on this hike because dad and I have decided, like, that's what we are doing this morning. And, you know, we do this a lot with my kids. And they frequently say, I don't want to go on the hike. You know, I just say, you know, I hear how you feel, but like, we're going on the hike. And partly you do that as a parent because, you know, later they'll say, oh, that hike was great, or because that's the obligation that the family has in some other way. So I think this is a hard. This is a hard balance. And I think she's kind of wanting. She wants to push. There's a. There's some of the book that's about really pushing in the direction of kind of very much away from the idea of permissiveness and thinking about the idea of acknowledging feelings as perhaps over acknowledging them, which I think is kind of what you're getting at there.

I think that's exactly right. Our kids feelings are real and they shouldn't dictate our decisions. I think those things are very true, that our kids feelings are worth noting and they're not in charge. Right. Like, I know I always go to town on the pilot analogy, like my passengers who are nervous and turbulence. I think it's helpful for a pilot to say, I hear everyone screaming like, you guys are all nervous service. And it's important to say, like, I'm the pilot and I'm in a land us and like, we're going to be fine. We're going to get through this. That's actually the pilot. You want the pilot who's like everyone shut up back there. You're making a big deal out of nothing. I actually, the irony isn't to me, I'm, you know me, I'm like an absurdly practical person. Like you're going to actually do a better job getting the people to be quiet by validating their feelings. Now if you then say, and I'm nervous too and, and I guess I don't know how to fly this plane and maybe we should just make an emergency landing even though it's just a little turbulence. No, no, like I would agree that would be a horrible pilot. But again, those are two extremes. And so I think, you know, the thing that we're touching on here, Emily is something she talks a lot about too. And I, and I agree with her here that parents have forgotten to me. Language I use a lot at good inside is parents need to embody their authority. There's a lot of reactions to this. Ooh, ooh, that sounds a little, you know, it, it sounds to me like the truth. We are the authority. Parental authority is a real thing now. I think we've learned about authority to me in almost every area but the family one. Like I think we know the most effective CEOs aren't telling their employees. That's not a big deal. Just get it done. Like I actually don't think anyone thinks that's effective there on the sports field. I think people have evolved a little bit too. Right. You connect with your players and you don't let them make all the decisions. You can do both. And I do see as she was writing, how many parents, in the name of caring about their kids feelings have lost touch with their own authority. And I'm guessing you've seen that too.

Yes, you can, you can see in her writing that that's right to some extent. And that it has these longer term impacts for how kids expect to be treated, how they expect the world to engage with them and for their confidence. And I think that's, you know, it's not just a kind of then kids grow up to be spoiled and disobedient. I think it's much more actually about kids growing up to not have the competence to solve their own problems. Problems or to think if I have these big feelings, I can't like the way that you react to feelings is sort of just by kind of giving up as opposed to seeing the feelings, acknowledging the feelings, but still trying to accomplish the thing that you're trying to accomplish.

And your hiking example to me is a perfect example of all of this, right, where my kid who's protesting hiking because they're like, I really don't like it. And let's say I believe them that maybe they really don't like it and you know, they're tired and it's a hard hike and. And I believe, you know, maybe I'm not making my like 2 year old do some major hike. I'm like, I do really believe my kid is capable. They just don't want to do it. By the time they're 18, 30, whatever it is, to some degree they've learned. How many times have I felt annoyed? How many times have I felt like this thing isn't what I would want to do? How many times have I said, I don't even know if I could do this, and then watched myself do it successfully and get through it anyway. And the more we take our kids protest and discomfort and I actually think they're big through just lack of preference, like, okay, you don't wanna do it. Great. Like I do a whole lot of things I don't wanna do. Like that's most of my freaking life. Like literally that's what it means to be a parent. Okay, you're welcome. But the more times my kids, obviously not to some toxic level, but are like, this is not my preference. I don't really like this. I don't even know if I can do it. And then I help them as a coach, not as a pure dictator, watch themselves do it. Maybe they don't love the hike, but they're like, wow, I actually did hike these number of miles. I think about when they're 18 and 30 and then they're going to scan their body when their boss asks them to do a project that they've never done before, they're not responding based on that project, they're responding based on their circuit of how many times have I initially felt like, I don't know if I can do this, I've never done this before, I don't know if this is for me. And then watch myself build confidence through the act of doing it anyway. And if that number is basically zero, because they were used to people saying, fine, forget it, Fine, one of us will stay home with you, Fine, the whole family will change. Just because we walk on eggshells around you and you have the biggest tantrums. And then why would I expect my 30 year old, just because they're a certain age to respond in any different way? And that I do agree with her, has happened in too many families.

The other Piece of this, which I resonate with quite a lot and I think other authors have written about as well, is the physical autonomy piece of it, which, you know, it's one thing to kind of make you go on the hike with me and then there's the kind of letting you problem solve activities, be physically away from me in a place where I am not standing over you. And this has changed quite a lot over time. And it is, I agree with her to a large extent, the fault of parents because people are afraid to let their kids go do stuff out in the world. And that is actually pretty important for kids to learn about their own competence. And she has some stories in the book, and there are other stories about kids who are 14 who have never gone down the block by themselves. And that's not a way to develop someone who then at 18, is going to be able to navigate their way around an adult world.

I'm so glad you're bringing this up. I just recorded my workshop for parents of teens and this literal thing was a huge, huge focus because, I mean, I think this should be happening before the teenage years. But really the teenage years are just a bridge between being a kid and being adult. Like we could, they're, they are, you know, identity explanation all the time, but all those things too, but they're just a bridge. And one of the things as my kids, even when they were young, but especially as they've gotten older, I keep thinking about are what jobs do I have as a parent with them that I want to hold onto and what jobs do I actually want to work myself out of so they can take those jobs on? And in general, in the patterning of my decisions, am I working myself out of those jobs so they can figure out how to take them on, or am I locking myself further into those jobs? Right. And walking my kid to their friend's house a couple blocks away as an example. I'm like, yeah, I don't, like, I've got a lot of stuff to do. Like, that's actually not something I want. And, and I think this duality and Jonathan Haidt says in his book, kids need so much less oversight in the physical world and actually so much more oversight in the digital world. And somehow the opposite got it reversed. We've got it wrong. So let's, let's talk about this a little bit because I think there's a lot of factors at play with letting my kid walk, go to the playground, check themselves into a routine. This actually happened. My son recently, he's 12, fully on his own, did his orthodontist appointment. He figured out what bus he needed from school. We're in Manhattan, right? So he's like, okay, well, it's not near my house, so what bus would I take there? Okay. And then how do I walk there? And then on my own, I'm gonna check in, I'm gonna wait. It actually took a little while. He realized, I'm gonna go and ask. Okay, I did it. And then he got himself home. The whole thing, right? And I really mean this, Emily. He's does well academically. This is the proudest thing for me. Like, and I think is the thing that sets him up in life more than anything that he tells me about his grades. I'm like, yeah, that is gonna be fine. Like, you have to be yay, yay grade smart to do okay in life. But you have to be able to participate in the grittiness and the problem solving part of real life. And I talk to a lot of my friends, right, who I. I hear a lot of things that I understand become barriers. And so how do you. How do you approach this? Let's jump into this. I think it matters so much.

So I think you and I are very aligned in terms of. I also have a 12 year old and she does a lot of stuff on her own. She goes running by herself. That's like kind of one of the main things. And I think what is scary for parents about this is then your kid is out in the world, they're on the bus, they're at the orthodontist. It's probably not such a big deal, but, you know, they're out running and there's cars or other people. And what if they get lost? What if they don't take the right bus? And yeah, they have a phone, but, you know, what if they drop their phone? And it's easy for that to sort of take over because we're afraid of things. What I will tell people often is you are not thinking about the other things that are happening if you don't do this. You are focusing on safety in this kind of narrow idea of physical safety in this moment, but you are not thinking about the fact that if you don't give them those opportunities, there's all kinds of stuff that's lost in the future, all kinds of other risks. And my sense is trying to get people to take a wider view of the idea of risks and benefits is pretty helpful in having them recognize. So the phrase I use is no option is completely safe. Like keeping your kid in their room all the time is not a completely safe option. And, yeah, letting them go on the bus to the orthodontist is also not a completely safe option. But it is the thing that is developing all these other. It has all of these enormous benefits in the future. And I think if we just get people to reframe that a little bit. I also. The other thing I will say is doing this the first time is always the hardest. And that's the most important thing for people to understand. Like, you won't feel like this the second time. You won't feel like this the third time. You know, the first time they go out, you'll be watching the window, watching the window, watching the window. The third time they go to the store, you forgot that they went. You're like doing something else. Having a bath, you know?

God, the baths. I don't know. I'd be talking about baths so many times.

I gotta get here. Maybe I'm just sore from something.

I think you're sore from your run.

I'm sore from my run.

Okay. There's so many things I wanna double click on here and. And. Okay, number one, one of the things I say a lot to parents, especially when our kids are young, right? Like, my kid is hitting someone, but I don't want to ruin the play date. I'm like, your number one job is to keep your kid safe. And right now, safety means picking up your kid and making them leave the play date. But when I say my number one job is to keep my kid safe, I think there's so many ways to think about safe. When I think about safe and what I mean that I want my kid to feel safe in the world. That is really different than always maximizing safety, ironically enough. And to me, I think there's something deep going on. And I. I actually think this related to Covid. And I'll explain. But other things, too. I think to some degree, we unconsciously think that being a good parent is minimization of risk.

Yes, totally.

And I think we had practice during COVID times. But minimization of risk was a life strategy in a way that it. I don't think for my lifetime had ever been. I mean, there were periods right during COVID where it was like, minimization of risk was your sole focus for survival. And I think, you know, it's amazing to me, sometimes I'm like, remember Covid? Like, remember those. At least a couple months that was really messed up. Like, oh, my God, why is no one talking? No one talk about it anymore.

Remember we were like wiping down our groceries. Did you lick groceries, leave it in the garage for three days? Yeah, it's like a little.

I remember when someone was grocery store shopping, wiping it down, but not wearing a mask. And then I remember cloth masks. I'm like, what, what do we think those are doing? But there was just. It was scary and it was minimization of risk. Minimization of risk. Minimization of risk. And I actually think that's probably had a bigger effect on us than we think because that's, that is, that's not a parenting strategy. It's not a life strategy. You cannot have a life that's worth living with a minimization of risk approach. And I think for us to be able to say to ourselves, like you're saying, that's opening the aperture. What is my job? Right? Like, this is always my focus at good inside is to be very long term greedy. My job is to prepare my kid.

For life because I'm to raise adults. It's like the thing.

That's what it is.

That's what it is.

That's what it is. And there's moments. We all take shortcuts because we need to, but overall, 80% of the time, 50% of the time, whatever it is, that's our goal. And why would my kid feel comfortable emailing their professor in college to tell them about an issue if when my kid is sick from school, I don't say to them, no, I'm not emailing your teacher, sweetie, because I know, I actually know you can do it. That's why I just don't wanna do for things for you that I know you could do for yourself. Why would they not call me when they're 20 and say, can you call my English professor? And then I'm like, this is ridiculous. But it's actually just a natural continuation of everything that happened, right?

Totally. Yeah. I mean, and at higher stakes, right? I mean, this is an opportunity. This time when we have kids who were in elementary, middle school, or, you know, high school, it's an opportunity to make them do those things and have them learn to do those things and have them forget their homework when the stakes are low.

That is right. And that piece matters because learning is messy. There's nothing anyone has ever learned that hasn't been messy. And like when you learn how to tie your shoes, like you don't do it the first time, it's messy. When you learn how to bring your water bottle to soccer practice by yourself without your parent or Put your homework in your backpack. Like you are going to forget. And that's not a mistake. That's not lazy. That feeling that happens when you forget and remember how thirsty you were is not the only thing. But it's definitely part of the road to remembering like it is. And if we steal that. And I love that word. Cause I think parents are like, I don't wanna steal anything from my kids. So it's like a. It's aggressive enough that it's like, whoa. You know? But when we steal that moment from our kid, we are stealing their sense of confidence. And they're learning. We're stealing their growth. Right?

Yeah, totally.

And what I just wanna prepare parents for, though, is when you see the homework or when you see the water bottle and you stop yourself. I really mean this. For me, it's excruciating. It's like, I actually feel like I need to get in bed after. Like, I'm like, wow, that was very hard. So it kind of actually reminds me of what you're saying with kids, like to say to yourself, this feels hard because it is hard. I am feeling this. Right. It doesn't mean I need to act and do anything different. I am competent. It comes back to this. Of having this feeling and not having it take over me. Exactly. And. And I think that's a parallel process.

I think it also gets back to this question of, is your. Like, is our job to keep our kid happy? Like, when my kid doesn't have their computer at school and then like, they can't do the assignment or their teacher yells at them or they get a miss or they don't have their water bottle and then they're thirsty. They're not happy. They're thirsty, they're annoyed. And they might come home and be like, I'm really unhappy that I didn't have my computer and my day was terrible because of that. It's like, yeah, that's okay.

You like me. Do you get like a. After the discomfort, do you get like a sick joy because you're like, this is going to be a good learning? Yeah, I shouldn't.

Maybe we'll cut that part about how we're, you know.

Yeah, but why? But why? I think. But I actually think it matters. Why is a part of.

I think it's because it feels, I think, sick joys, maybe. Well, but I think there's a feeling there of I did a hard thing and I followed through on something that I found hard. It's not dissimilar from how I feel. Like if I do like a, like a hard, like I could accomplish a hard thing at work or like I run fast and stuff. It's like. So this feeling of like I did this thing and I didn't know that I could do it because honestly my instinct was to pick up the water bottle and take it and drop it with the person at school. Because I'm like right there. Like, you live two blocks from my kids school. I could totally bring them the water bottle. I could have brought the computer. But I pushed through and I didn't because I knew that that was the right thing to do. And that's, that's the same feeling of accomplishment I want my kids to have when they like push through the algebra problem.

And the reason I have a sick joy and it's not. I just want to be clear. Like, I'm not like, it's not like I.

We like our kids are unhappy. That's not.

Yeah, I'm not like laughing, I'm not pointing fingers. I'm not like, you know, texting all my friends, you know, my son fried his water bottle. How amazing is this? None of that happens. Okay? But going back to this long term focus, I think a lot about how we misunderstand confidence in kids and like, right. Raising kids who can be adults and resilient and confident. It's a thing all of us want. We all want that. But if we don't understand it right, we definitely can't be on the pathway. So to me, confidence, true confidence, like adult confidence, is not built when we're successful at something. Because if you actually think about someone who's only confident when they're successful at something, I think we would actually say that person is very fragile, extremely fragile. To me, confidence comes from the moments where something didn't go your way. And honestly, it's not fancy. Like you just kind of figure out how to survive them. Like you, you watch yourself get through that. From like it could be. My mom always packs me a bagel for lunch and oh my goodness, this is the one time she didn't. I was supposed to make it myself and I didn't. And I don't have lunch today. I don't know what's gonna happen, but I'm gonna figure out something. And I really believe that is gonna build my internal sense of confidence. Just, I am someone who, when things don't go my way, I have built up an arsenal of experiences that tell me those moments aren't fun and I am capable of getting through them. I mean, I know in the workplace, that is the only thing that, like, helps people. It's just like when something goes hard, I can get through it. There's nothing fancier than that. You don't know how to get through it. But knowing that you've had the experience of getting through bumps is like the ultimate flex in life. And so I don't know who said this, maybe you did. But don't prepare the road for your child. Prepare your child for the road and not say that.

But that's a good thing.

It's a good one, right? I don't know. I like that. I didn't say that either. But I think that kind of sick joy comes from, like, I have a decision. I can prepare the road or I can prepare my kid. And yes, they're going to hit that bump because I didn't prepare the road. But I don't want the job of road smoother over forever. Slash, that road doesn't exist and is such a disservice to my child's internal capability. And so that sick joy is like, wow, this is one of those bumps today that I know is survivable. It's okay if they're thirsty. It's okay if they're a little cold. It's okay if in 8th grade, 10th grade, whatever, they forget their homework. Guess what? It's okay in college too. And them watching themselves just survive, it is going to help them in a kind of exponential way going forward. And I, and I, I love that for them.

So I want to ask you a question.

Okay.

So we talked a lot about what we like, what we like about this book and the things that it made us think about, which is why I hope we do in this conversation. But you're a therapist and this title of this book is Bad Therapy. So there's gotta be stuff that you.

Didn'T agree with a hundred percent. I mean, look, to me, there just really wasn't enough nuance. Like, there really wasn't enough nuance. And it felt, it felt a little fear mongery. It felt a little kind of focused on people who kind of want to hear this narrative anyway. And then they're the people most are like, yeah, we knew it. You know, there are kids who are really struggling. So many. And I think as much as we work on things, there are parents who see their kids struggling and are like, I don't really, I don't really know how to help my kid. And to me, when a parent sees their kid struggling and they simultaneously think, I actually don't know to help my kid get out of this. To me, it's like a sign of strength in everything that's right in a family when they just say who are the teammates I can bring on to help? And I would hate, I would hate to think that this would stop people from doing that. Now the thing that I hope happens simultaneously to that is. And it's why I 100% believe in child therapy. Big believer. And the reason I stopped myself doing child therapy and decided to focus so much on parents was kind of like practical math. I was like, wait, this person's in my office? Like maximum 45 minutes, one hour a week, they're in their family home. So much more than that. Plus I'm not gonna have the influence on them. I can then their caregivers are. So if I can help the caregivers feel a little sturdier, help them understand their kid in a different way, help them see the situation differently, help them understand this balance of seeing their kids experiences real and by the way, still being that parental authority with boundaries from a place of loving and protecting my kid and knowing they can be competent. And I, I feel like that that could be like a lot of bang for my buck. And so I think the messaging is like, yes, if our kids need that space, that is so important. And of course, due diligence on the providers. Like, I know all parents do parents care simultaneously. We can't outsource that completely. And to me, again, like the biggest flex as a parent is saying what's going on with my kid is definitely not my fault. I am the CEO, like I am the coach of this team. And so I can get my player, I can get that junior employee help if I level up my skills even just a little, that could have more impact on my kid. And by the way, I'm just gonna feel better myself also, like, what an amazing opportunity that is. And so I think that's how I see it.

It's funny how strong I think the parallels. I mean, I did write a book called the Family Firm, but I think some of this, the parallels to how you manage at your job, you know, the kind of. Some of how I try to help people in my, on my team succeed better or try to like have coaching myself so I do a better job as a leader. And so I figure out how to, how to navigate whatever I'm doing better. And sometimes you'll say, you know what? This person could use some coaching from outside. And I'm gonna try to facilitate that because like, it's not like, what I'm able to do is not enough. And I think that. I mean, that happens in the workplace. And you wouldn't think of it as. You wouldn't think of it as failure in the workplace.

That's exactly right. And I think that, like, yes, our kids can need help. And if the family system, which is kind of like the work culture, doesn't change at all, and I'm expecting things to get better because my junior employee is getting help, that. That map, that just doesn't even make sense. And so I think parents can feel so much shame. Like, it's so easy to be like, so you're saying it's my fault? No, it's so interesting. We. And I don't know if it's just American, we go to fault so fast. So it's my kid's fault. I don't. Like, I don't know why it has to be anyone's fault. Like, I don't know what our obsession with fault is. You know, I enjoyed this story, but I'll never forget, a while ago, something happened. My husband got a little annoyed at my son and kind of. And my son was like, it's not my fault. And my husband's like, so it's my fault. And my son said to him, why does it have to be anyone's fault? Sometimes bad things happen and it's no one's fault. And we both looked at each other, we're like, damn, we just got, like, played by, like, you totally got played.

It's like.

But it's actually a life philosophy. Like, for anyone listening right now who's like, my kid's struggling, and I'm probably also struggling. Cause I'm not really sure even what's really driving this or what they need. Okay, so let's just say that's happening in a ton of homes. What if I said to myself, like, this is not my fault. This is not my kid's fault. I'm not a bad person. My kid's not a bad kid. There's no fault. There's no internal badness. There is struggle. If I just had that, we are struggling, what would I do? And I think our options feel a lot less heavy. Oh, well, maybe. Maybe I can get help just because this is what I always say. I don't want to put my kids change in my kid's hand only. Like, I have faith in myself more than I have faith in my toddler or my teen. Like, I feel like if I can have more clarity and I can level up and Maybe my kid too. That's like an additional. Wow. How empowering is that? That to me is such an empowering approach. And so look, I think you and I, we see things so similarly and I always loved when we see things differently. We have such amazing discourse about it. And I think this book got us both thinking. I think it got a lot of people thinking and I hope it just gets people thinking like any toward feeling more empowered, you know, to make the changes you wanna make.

Yeah, yeah. And I think there are no book that one is gonna read. Not our books, not this book, not any book is gonna be. Every point is gonna feel like I want to operate my life like this book is. And that shouldn't really be the point of this. I think almost all of these books about how you operate as a parent, about how we operate as parents, as a society, we should read and think about them as, you know, what do I wanna take from this? And there were some things that I really took from this that I hope other people will take and other pieces which, you know, for me were not as resonant and I maybe wouldn't take from it. But, you know, that's why you have conversations. And I think that, I think to get back like she has really hit on something which a number of people have hit on the last year or so in various books, which is this idea that kids are. Kids are having a hard time and that it's not, you know, not just 12 year olds and 15 year olds, it's 18 year olds and 23 year olds and that there's something going on where we need to help kids and young adults develop more of a sense of competence. For me, that's like the core.

I think that's the core too. Thanks to Airbnb. Remember, your home could be worth more than you think. Find out more@airbnb.com host and thanks to Guranimals, the original mix and match clothing brand for babies and toddlers. Check them out@walmart.com thank you for listening. To share a story or ask me a question, go to goodinside.com podcast or you could write me@podcastoodinside.com parenting is the hardest and most important job in the world and you deserve resources and support so you feel empowered and confident for this very important job you hold. I'm so excited to share Good Inside Membership. It's the first platform that brings together content and experts you trust with a global community of like valued parents. It's game changing and built for a busy parent. Who wants to make the most out of the future few minutes they have. Good inside with Dr. Becky is produced by Jesse Baker and Eric Newsom at Magnificent Noise. Our production staff includes Sabrina Farhey, Julia Knapp and Kristen Muller. I would also like to thank Erica Belsky, Mary Panico, Brooke Zant and the rest of the good inside team. And one last thing before I let you go. Let's end by placing our hands on our hearts and reminding ourselves, even as I struggle and even as I have a hard time on the outside, I remain good inside.