Emily Oster on the Real Data Parents Need

I am so excited to have Emily Oster on the podcast today. Emily is an economics professor at Brown University, and she is a writer of many books on pregnancy and parenting. Her main goal is to create a world of more relaxed pregnant women and parents, and she does this by providing parents with such valuable information. I'm so honored that she's here with us, and I'm so excited for you to hear everything she has to share. So let's jump in. Hi, I'm Dr. Becky, and this is Good Inside. I'm a clinical psychologist and mom of three on a mission to rethink the way we raise our children. I love translating deep thoughts about parenting into practical, actionable strategies that you can use in your home right away. One of my core beliefs is that we are all doing the best we can with the resources we have available to us in that moment. So even as we struggle and even as we are having a hard time on the outside, we remain good inside. Hi, Emily. I am so excited. I am so honored truly to be having this conversation with you. And I would love to start by you are telling everyone listening who you are and the types of things you're interested in.

All right, so first let me say I'm also really excited to be here with you. So I'm really looking forward to this. My name is Emily Oster. Professionally, I have two hats. I am a professor of economics at Brown University, where I do things with data, mostly around health, and I'm a writer. I have books about pregnancy and parenting, and I write a newsletter called Parent Data. So everything I do is about data, but still some of it's for parents and some of it's for other economists. And I live in Providence, Rhode island, with my husband, who is also an economist, and my two kids.

And you're the author of three books?

Yes, I'm the author of three books, Expecting Better, which is on pregnancy Crib Sheet, which is about small children and babies, and the Family Farm, which is about the older kid experience.

So what led you into kind of looking at or questioning pregnancy and parenthood recommendations?

In some ways, the answer is quite simple to that, which is that I got pregnant. And I think like a lot of women, I had not had a lot of sustained. I was lucky. I had not had a lot of sustained interaction with, like, medicine up to that point. And, and I, you know, as a person who makes a lot of my own decisions and has. Feels like I have a lot of autonomy and information and most of the large choices that I had made in my Life were really things where I got a chance to sit down and think about the way I wanted to make that choice. And because I'm a person who loves data, often those choices involved data or numbers in some way. And then I got pregnant, and I found that the way that pregnancy was approached was pretty evidence. Not evidence free is the wrong word. But I wasn't being given the kind of autonomy to evaluate my own choices with evidence that I had been used to in all other spheres. Like, at my first prenatal visit, when I must have been, like, 10 weeks pregnant, where they just. Like, on the way out almost, they handed me these lists. It was like, here's the list of things not to eat. And it was incredibly long. You know, it was like hot dogs and sushi. And, you know, and it's also like cigarettes. It's like, surely these things can't all be the same amount of bad. Like, it can't be that oysters and cigarettes are, like, the same bad, and they certainly aren't gonna be bad for the same reason. And that kind of experience of just, like, me being like, but wait, wait, wait. Like, can you tell me more? And being like, well, no, just there's a list. Like, read it. Read it off the list. The feeling of sort of things, the decision making being removed from kind of my control and from my ability to make the decision in a way that I was comfortable and happy with. I think that was really where this started. And of course, like, can I have oysters? Is perhaps not like, the most important question, but there were many other important questions. And also, like, I like oysters. I particularly like coffee, which is also on that list. So, you know, that was. That was really where I started, you know, right away.

I feel like we're starting with something that on the surface is so simple. Like, okay, I'm pregnant for nine months. Like, do I have to have coffee? Like, whenever you isolate these decisions one at a time, I feel like it's always. It's always hard for me to choose something that increases risk, even if it's, like, a tiny bit. Right? So individually, like, okay, oysters, sushi, certain cheeses. But, like, these two things I see, which is risk, or, like, doing whatever you can to maximize safety of your child. And then on the other side, there's like, but I like coffee. Like, but I want coffee. I really love having sushi. Right? Like, there's, like, love and desire and wants for a woman who's pregnant. And then there's, you know, maximizing safety, Right?

Yes. And I think often the way it's framed makes it like the act of not having the coffee is the act of being a good parent. And this comes up in early parenting. Also that it is, it is almost the fact that you like it and are giving it up for your baby is a way to sort of feel to yourself or to others like you are sort of doing it right, like you are willing to sacrifice. And that gets us into a place where with something like coffee, if you dive into the data, there just really no evidence that there's any risk to sort of moderate amounts of coffee. So there isn't a gain on that side. But I still think it can feel like, well, I would just, just to be on the absolute safest side, you know, I am going to be willing to give this up. And I feel for me that goes across many areas in parenting.

I mean, I 100% agree, but what you're saying, which I find really compelling is it's almost like what makes us feel best as a newly pregnant person is I am starting my journey of self sacrifice right now. And this is what good moms do. Is that what you're saying?

Yeah, absolutely. And I think it's particularly, it's actually particularly true with the first one. I think often when people get pregnant a second time, they're like, yeah, yeah, of course I'm gonna have some coffee. And, and there, you know, I often will tell people, well, you gotta like, you sort of balance a little bit. Like sometimes that's first moments you're pregnant, it's like almost exciting. It's like, oh, like now I'm pregnant, like, ooh. All these new things I get to do, like not drink coffee and like, oh, I have to be careful about the, the fish, you know, And I, and that's, that's like, that can be part of the experience and kind of, it could be like in a positive way, but it can also then move into this like sort of self sacrificing. Like that's how you become a good mom.

Yeah, this, this martyrdom.

Right.

And I think if I'm on a mission to, to do anything, it has almost like less to do with kids and more of like changing this idea that motherhood is martyrdom. But right away there is almost this like excitement we get where it's like, oh, I can't eat that, you know, or no, I can't drink that. And we're living in this idea that being a good mom means putting your own pleasure and your own desires to the side for the Benefit of. Of someone else. And. And ironically, I mean, I don't know if you've looked into the data on this, but I'm just gonna venture, like, I can't imagine data supports that. Like, self sacrifice is, like, great for parents. Like that. That's like, there's a lot of, like, that is just so good for moms and babies.

No, data does not support that. And, you know, data does not support that in particular, you know, sort of even on the other side. And some of the kinds of things we talk about, not so much coffee, but particularly in sort of early parenting, some of the kinds of sacrifices that we see in this space can be triggers for postpartum depression, for postpartum anxiety, for people kind of moving from happy to not happy. And then that actually does have some not positive, but potentially negative impacts on parental functioning. And so when we think about the idea of self sacrifice as a positive value, it puts the weight on only one piece of the functioning or one piece of what we're trying to achieve and not on, you know, how do we structure our family in a way that kind of everybody is happy and everybody is productive and everybody is getting the things that they need. I know when I was talking about crib sheet, I sometimes I would say, you know, like, parents are people too, which I think we sometimes forget.

Yeah. Is this the same in other countries? Is this like an American phenomenon? This kind of, you know, this massive starting, let's say, with pregnancy, if we stay in that. And I definitely want to move post pregnancy too with you, but pregnant. See the list? The know this. The no cheese, the no glass of wine, the no coffee. I'm thinking, like, sushi, a glass of wine and a cup of coffee. Like, those are like a lot of my pleasurable foods. Like, my. It's like almost like if chocolate cake was, like, listed too. Luckily they've let us have that. But, like, is this true in other countries?

The list is not the same. So, you know, there's some things that are on everybody's list, but, you know, there are differences in the kinds of things that are. That are restricted. So the French tend to be more relaxed about cheese. The Japanese tend to be more relaxed.

About sushi, and the Americans tend to be relaxed about chocolate cake.

Chocolate cake. Exactly. Doritos. You know, we're good. We're good. But then you get other things where people, you know, where people will have, like, sort of different kinds of, like, you can't have ice or you can't have two of the windows open. Like, Some of these things sort of. I mean, I remember when I was, when I was pregnant with my daughter and one of my colleagues who from China was like, did you get your radiation vest for your computer work? And I was like, I'm sorry, what are you. What? And he was like, yeah. You know, and like, in China, like, if you're pregnant, you have to wear, like, like a special canvas vest to, like, protect yourself from the computer radiation. I was like, yeah, we don't have that. Like, we don't have that one here. But, like, you know, no, no shade on that. Like, we got it. We got a bunch of other ones. Just not that one.

Huh? Right. It's like everyone has this long list. Some are, some are the same. Yeah. And the word like, preciousness keeps coming to mind. Like, there's, there's this message, and I think I see this all the time with parents, you know, who are parenting their toddlers or older kids. It's the same thing. It's like, if I do one thing wrong, I've, like, messed up parenthood forever. Right? It's like, and all of these restrictions, there's such rigidity in that way.

There's rigidity. And I, I, it, I think it does come from a good place of people wanting to do the right thing. And, and the idea that there is a single right way to, to do this or a way to kind of make it, to make it successful. And some of parenting is really about giving up control and recognizing that you can make, like, your pregnancy or whatever, that you can make all the right choices or all the, all the good. You make all good choices, and you can still end up in a situation in which things go, unfortunately go wrong. And that's, I think people. Part of the byproduct of some of these issues is that people often blame themselves. You know, people have a miscarriage, they. They'll ask me, you know, well, what, like, what did I do? And the answer is like, nothing. You know, huge share of first trimester miscarriages are just a result. Like, not, not like 50%, but like 90% are a result of chromosomal issues that you never could have done anything about. And the idea that people come and they say, well, you know, what did I do? Was it, Did I take. I shouldn't have run or, you know, I should have had a cup of coffee or, you know, what about this? You know, I walked through this field and could that, you know, like, all of these things where we get into a place where once you accept the idea that There's a like right way to do it. Then if it doesn't go right, it must be that you've done something wrong.

And that's a big challenge and Right. I think there's so many of us and I think so many listeners right now probably can identify. Yes. When I struggle with something in my life, when I have like a big hard feeling about something, my first thought is self blame. Like, I made this happen, I did this. And I think as women we're like, a lot of us are especially prone to this. But it, it is interesting that the self blame is always about not being careful and like self sacrificial enough. Like I don't know someone as am, like, no one was like, I had a miscarriage and I just, I wasn't having enough sex because if I was having more sex, I would have been like happier. If I would have been happier, I would have been more hospitable, biddable. No one's like, I just, I should have had sushi. Because if I had sushi, I would have like been so much more satisfied that day and my baby would have felt, felt that elation. Right. It's just kind of interesting. It's always like, I didn't restrict enough.

Yeah. No, it's that I had not even thought about it. But you're absolutely right. Like there's, when you said those things, I was like, that's a crazy thing to say because I've never heard anyone say that. But of course I'm not sure why they wouldn't. You know, I'm not sure what, what's, what's wrong with your sex argument. It's just as good as the, yeah. You know, all the other things that.

People say, you know, and, and every time I have these conversations, it's like I feel like I learned so much about how deep these stories are about like what motherhood is. How deep the story of motherhood as martyrdom, like really goes. Right? Because as soon as you're pregnant, there's almost like we're signaling our virtue, right? Like, oh, I don't eat that. I don't do that. Because I'm a, I'm a good mom. I'm a good mom from the start because I am willing to say no to things that give me personal pleasure.

Yes.

Right. And when you do get pregnant, same too. And the obs, it's all about like, here's everything you could do to minimize risk even if the data doesn't support it to babies. Like, no doctor is like, here's what you need to do from the start to make sure you still stay in touch with all the parts of you that pre existed pregnancy.

I just want to say I think there are doctors who do that.

Great.

But I don't think that there, I don't think that, that it's, it is not, it is not the norm. Yeah, yeah.

How did you navigate all this then? So when you were pregnant, like, how did you navigate the. These things? Did, did people say things to you because you, your book, you're expecting better book is the book I feel like everyone I know read during pregnancy and everyone was like, you have to read this book. You have to read this book. But what that tells me is before you wrote the book, like no one, no one gave you.

I didn't have the book.

You didn't have the book.

You wrote the book. Yes.

Yeah. So how did you navigate this and what was the reaction around you?

I navigate, I mean, I talk in the book about some of the ways that we sort of, that we navigated this and there were a lot of, there was a lot of research and a lot of spreadsheets and I did a lot of the work for the book while I was in my own pregnancy. And so like an example is we were trying to make some decisions about prenatal testing, which actually the landscape's quite different now than it was when I was pregnant a decade ago. But there were a bunch of different trade offs and, and you know, my husband and I would go back and forth with these spreadsheets and he'd be like, okay, like here's an. I want, well, I want to see a different assumption here. I want to see a different, you know, a different assumption there. Like, let's kind of, you know, what about this paper? What about that paper? And so we would, we would work through this and then of course I would go to my ob, who obviously thought I was the worst. I mean, you know, both like, like kind of insane and also just very, very difficult. It just, this is the truth. But I did try to inform our, our decisions with the, the numbers to the extent that I could get them sort of in, kind of in time. But you know, what was interesting was there were moments when we had sort of come to some decision based on the data and preferences and whatever it was where I was really happy that we had thought so carefully about it because there was sort of, if not pushback, kind of like dismissiveness. So the example that comes to mind is I didn't want to have an epidural So I, we, and we had talked a lot about this and sort of like, why not? And you know, it's not that I think is a somewhat unusual choice that had a lot to do with references and less to do with risks. But anyway, it was the choice that I had decided was like the right choice. And I remember telling them and whoever I was seeing at the OB was like, well, we'll see, you know, and I was like, okay, we will see, let's see. You know, it's just so. But I think that was the kind of interaction that both like spurred me on and also was frustrating because it again was this sort of like, well actually no, I'm an autonomous person who has thought about this and evaluated the evidence and I have made this choice and it was, it was, there was some dismissiveness.

Yeah, you know, I always think about that as a different type of data that we have, which I feel like in the information age and this evidence based world for everything we live in sometimes is like really undervalued. Which like you say the word preferences, to me, that's just like internal data. It's like just something inside me that's like, I want this, I don't want an epidural or like I just have a gut on this. And I would never say that that's more important than, you know, scientific data. Like, I just don't think you can compare them side by side. But I, I feel like that's something that's really, really important. Right.

Yeah, I agree, but I, I think, Keith, it's so many of these choices. The, there are kind of some pluses and there are some minuses, there are some risks and there are benefits. There are very few things, not none, but very few things where you could point to the data in this space and be like a hundred percent like that activity is risky and like a significantly risky with no benefits. There's just very few things where the data almost makes the decision for you. There are many more things where there's pluses, there's minuses, and so then we are left with, you can call it your own personal data, you can call it your preferences, whatever it is, as something that has to be a big part of the right choice for you, but that also means that the right choice for you is not necessarily the right choice for someone else. And that recognition, both in the kind of patient provider space but also in the interacting with other parents space is one that, that can be really hard to navigate because I think we want our choices to Be, like, so right that they are right for everyone.

Yeah. No, I completely agree. I think, you know, in that search to feel like you trust your own decision, it almost feels easier for everyone outside. You would just validate it. Right. And then we get very judgmental of other people. Not actually because we're judging what they're doing, because it feels like a threat to our feeling good about what we' we're doing. Right. And then we just enact that over and over and over.

When I had this. So I. I didn't have an epidural, and my best friend was pregnant at the same time. She was due, like, three months after, and she was like, I'm gonna have, you know, she was like, I'm gonna have an epidural. I was like, that was great. And she. I remember she called me the next day and she was like, you're insane. Like, the epidural is the best. Like, you know, of course it was. It was very nice, but it was like only an interaction you would have with someone where it was like, like, okay, we both trust each other. Like, we understand we have different preferences.

Yeah.

Just like, you're a crazy person.

And it sounds like that was held with such levity. Right. Which.

Yes.

For everyone listening right now, to think about a decision you've made for your family. Maybe it was back in pregnancy. Maybe it's, you know, a long time since pregnancy. Maybe it's the amount of screen time you let your kid watch today. Right. Or maybe it's whether you let a kid have a sleepover or not, or how many after school activities your kids do. Whatever the decision is, I really think it's like the ultimate grounding exercise. Just remind yourself, like, I'm making decisions that feel best for my kid and my family and my neighbor over there is actually doing the exact same thing. Like, it might look totally different on the surface, but internally, like, we're actually doing the same thing. And their kid, who watches less, you know, screen time or more like they're, they're. They're no better or worse. Like, we're each trying to. To make decisions for our family. Right. You and your friend Emily, like, you actually made the same decision. You made the decision that felt right for you.

That's such a good message. Because it's so easy to both judge and also to sort of feel judged or to second guess in a way that. That can promote a tremendous amount of anxiety.

Yes. And. And strife. Right. And just.

Yeah.

You know, I. I say this to myself a lot too, when I Feel that like threat of comparison. It's like, that's not a referendum on my parenting. Like that parent's decisions is not at all a referendum on my decisions. And I feel like pushing away other people's decisions in a way so you can see them and then you can be curious about them. Like, oh, you love the epidural, like, cool. Tell me about that. What was, what worked about that for you? Once you have a little distance, you can actually be curious. When we don't have distance, it, it really feels like an, you know, an evolutionary threat.

Right? Yeah, yeah, no, exactly.

Okay, so I want to transition into breastfeeding. That like, so all of this, this stuff with breastfeeding, like just, I'm just going to say just do it.

Go, go, go.

Yeah, go.

So breastfeeding is I think in some ways the most significant early parenting example of this kind of self sacrificing thing. And when I was biting crib sheet, this was like the biggest place I wanted to start was just to dive into the evidence before we get into preferences. So I'm just like dive in the evidence behind a lot of the things we get told about breastfeeding, many of which are very extreme. So, you know, I pulled up together like a list of the benefits that are listed and there's some of the things you're familiar with. Better health, better antibodies, you know, higher iq, less serious illness, later, lower obesity. And then you'll get into like weight loss, free birth control, like have better friendships. You know what that means, what's wrong with your friends, you know, get different friends is what I think. So I, you know, I really dug into that. I think part of the issue in the data there is that there are a lot of differences between women who breastfeed and women who do not on a bunch of other dimensions. So when we study those problems, it's really difficult to separate correlation from causality. And much of the evidence we have is really problematic for, for that reason, when we look at the best evidence, which is typically from either like the one randomized trial or more likely sibling studies where they compare two siblings within the same family, you see, you know, some evidence of these early life benefits, like better digestion, you know, less gastrointestinal illness, you know, those effects are not enormous, but they're definitely, they seem to be. There maybe some effects on ear infections, but you don't see compelling evidence of many of these longer term things like iq, obesity, height. It doesn't help you lose weight, like, sorry, you know, so when I then Sort of when I wrote crib sheet, then I sort of went there, discuss that. Tried to, you know, get people on the same page about, like, what is the truth? Like, when people say breast is best, like, based on the data, I guess that's not wrong in the sense that there are some, you know, small benefits that show up in the data. But when we see people say breast is best, they. They imply a thing which is far beyond the data. And the thing that made me most compelled to write crib sheet, the emails I would get from people that would say, like, my wife really liked your first book. We have our first kid. You know, breastfeeding is not going well. She's so upset, and, you know, she's really like. Like, it was just really, really hard. And I feel like if you told her it wasn't that big a deal, like, maybe she would feel better about herself. That. That's crushing.

Yeah, well, and I said this to you before we started today. I feel like there's just such overlap in. In our work. It always, like, just kind of comes together in the right way. And, you know, I think what I see over and over from parents and especially moms is, is the kind of looking for one thing, and the one thing keeps changing to kind of prove, like, I'm a. I'm a good parent. Like, I'm a good parent. And early on, like, there's just not that much. There's not that many options.

You know, there's not that much to do there.

There's not much. Like, there's not, you know, like, they're not even smiling. But, you know, there. There's. How do I feed my baby, which is the essence. Like, how am I sustaining this child? And there's like, one thing, or maybe there's two. There's how they sleep, right? Nobody's baby's sleeping that well. And then there's how you're feeding, right? And what always strikes me about data, right? And breastfeeding, this is. I thought about this live before crib sheet came out, was like, you know, what I know as a human, without looking at any study, is mothers feeling depleted, exhausted, resentful, shitty about themselves is not good for a mom. It is not good for a baby, and it is not good for a baby's connection. Like, the idea that whatever is in breast milk would be more important to a baby than all of that. Like, this is your sturdy leader. Like, you know, like the sturdy leader of an organization. There's nothing more important in an organization than that sturdiness Right. So, like, I. I just. I always remember thinking, like, I don't buy it. And that's not a way of saying, I don't think people should breastfeed. That's not a way of saying that when it gets hard, you should give it up. I'm not. I'm not saying that so concretely, but I. I know in my bones that if a mom is so overwhelmed and depleted in that way, there's no way she's forming a strong bond with her child.

Yes. And I. I think in, you know, this idea of elevating this one behavior, which is sort of maybe another way to say what you're saying, like, we're elevating one behavior, as if everything is. In economics, we'd say lexicographic, that, like, there's. There's one thing that's the most important and everything else is almost, like, completely secondary. And if you do the one thing, everything else is, there's nothing else to worry about. If you don't do the one thing, it's basically over. And that is not true of the data on. On breastfeeding. And. And, you know, as you say, there are many compelling reasons that people would choose not to breastfeed, including they don't want to. And that, I think, is a piece of this where we're often. We'll see. You know, people say, well, like, I could. You know, you somehow have to be. There has to be an excuse. I couldn't. You know, I. I didn't have enough supply. I tried really hard, you know, but as opposed to just being like, well, I didn't think it would work for my family, which is actually like, a completely legitimate reason. On the flip side, and this is, I think, a frustration that's perhaps unique in some ways to. To the US that we are both very pushy about breastfeeding and also tremendously unsupportive in other ways. Like, actually, breastfeeding is quite hard for at least for many of us. Like, it's not super intuitive. It's not. I thought it was just gonna be like, you just, like, put the baby in the vicinity and it just kind of does it. But actually, like, maybe that works for some people that didn't, you know, that didn't work for me. And so we have this activity which is difficult to get started, and we have very little support for new parents outside of the hospital, and very little, like, home visiting or whatever you would need to make that work. And then we have, like, basically no support for breastfeeding in public. And so it's kind of like, you know, the most important thing you can do for your baby is breastfeed. But put those boobs away because nobody wants to see that.

And get back to work because there's no paid parental.

And get back to work. You can pump in this. In this dirty bathroom, right? I'm sorry that there's no plug, but just buy more batteries.

It's really messed up, right? And I know, right? Like, it was, you know, then there's like, oh, and by the way, if you can breastfeed up to age 2, that's also best, right? Like that extra little cherry on top. And, you know, one of the things that I think is just always helpful whether, you know, you have a young baby or a teenager, is the sentence like, I'm a good mom who. And then you end the sentence with something that societally has been deemed something that, quote, good moms don't do to, like, hold those two truths at once. And I just want to say, and I think I've said this elsewhere, I did not choose to breastfeed my kids for that long, like, at all. And it was a combination of factors. But I want to name one of the factors. I didn't like it. I wasn't into it. It wasn't my thing. I didn't want to do it. And it's so true. It's like, oh, but you tried this. Or, oh, did you have a supply issue? Like, you have to prove your sacrifice to get permission from the world to not breastfeed. And that is some up. And I just want to say on air, I am a good mom who chose not to breastfeed her kids for that long at all, period.

Yeah, I think that's amazing. And I will say, you know, sometimes people, I knew all this stuff about breastfeeding, all this data, like, before I had my first kid, because I done it for something I looked into for research and so on. So I knew all this, and I really knew it. And I still killed myself to try to breastfeed my first kid. And I really, like, I did not. I mean, eventually we made it work, but, like, it was not an experience that I look back on and think, like, I'm really glad that I spent so very many hours walking up and down the hallway, like, bouncing my kid, because that was the only way I could get her to latch. Like, I. I wish that I had not done that because I wish I had sort of let myself off that. Let me solve off the hook is again, like, I'm. It's so quick. You're so quick to get into that, Emily. Like, what are we doing? What are we doing? Oh my God.

It's 100%. Let me backtrack and just say, by the way, like, I'm. I also like was in a horrible guilt shame spiral for my first child. Right. Like a hundred percent. Me too. And I very much felt like I had to talk to everyone about my schedule and then how I have to pump after and this I had to prepare, prove my worth through self sacrifice and proving that this couldn't be good for anyone. And that might be true. And like, I just do. I think so many things in motherhood goes back to the way women have distanced ourself from the start from our desire. Right. As if like desire is like anti female. Like have like the desire of like, I don't want to. Right. I don't want to breastfeed. Say it.

I don't want to do that.

Right.

It feels very radical. And you know, and I, I think. And there's this flip which is like, if people want to do this, we should provide more support. And somehow, like, somehow we've sort of hit a place where, you know, we don't support it and yet we, we sort of force it into people who would like to do it. Kind of aren't able to, to, you know, really give it a chance to kind of. Because it is hard at the beginning and for many people you push through that and actually it's something that you enjoy and it really works for you and so on. At least some people it doesn't work and it's not something that you necessarily want to do for two years and.

Exactly. And, and yes, like this is not an anti breastfeeding message. And I think the message is good moms get epidurals and good moms don't get epidurals and good moms breastfeed and good moms don't breastfeed. Right.

And that no one of these choices is a choice that makes you a good mom or not like that. That hanging any idea of sort of good parenting on a choice is a huge mistake.

I think that that's exactly right. You know, one of the questions that came from our membership community is about like choice frameworks. Covid risk sending your kids back to school amidst increased gun violence, things like that. How do you think through these decisions? And, and things that maybe have seemingly, you know, are definitely lower risk but still feel like hard choices, like how many after school activities do I do? And you Know, when do I give my kid a phone? Like any of those. I would love to hear how you think through those things.

Yeah, so, so I spent a lot of time in family firm on this kind of like a decision framework around big choices, hard choices, and I think there's a few sort of insights in there. And so, so kind of one is that I really encourage people to try to be very specific about what they're question is. I think often when we are asking ourselves these hard questions, we frame them almost as like, should I do this or not? You know, should I send my kid back to school or not? And you know, you got to recognize like or not's not a schooling outcome, you know, that it's not a, or not. It's not a place you go to school. And if you are going to make that choice in a way that, that is thoughtful, you really do need to say what the two options are. And so I call that framing the question that I think we're often sort of reluctant to frame the question in part because or not seems great. Like, or not could be almost anything, right? Like, or not or not could be like an amazing outcome, whereas the school is just like a known quantity. But of course or not is actually not a choice.

So how would you change that question?

So, you know, in the case of something like, like school, I think what you'd have to ask is, you know, should I send my kid? This was more of an early pandemic thing, but like, should I send back my kid back to school or should I enroll them in zoom school? And you know, that's, those are two things where then you could say, let me evaluate the risks, let me evaluate the, you know, learning outcomes or you know, in something like extracurriculars, you know, like people say, well, should I do this activity or, or not. In some ways that's, that's sort of well framed. But I think you want to say like, should I do this activity or another activity? Should I do this sport or another sport, or is it this sport or theater or is it this board or nothing? And that I think makes the questions often more tractable because you are now facing an actual choice which you can then move forward on. And, and I think a lot of the rest of the framing, the sort of decision tools are really about giving that decision the attention it needs. Think about what are the trade offs, what are the risks, what are the benefits on either side then making a decision and trying to move on. So I think other than the sort of two big mistakes I see. If you make here are not framing the question as two concrete alternatives and then actually not ever really making a decision, like just saying, should we do, should we do baseball or not? And then kind of dribbling it out until the decision is either made for you because you forgot to sign up, or, you know, at the last minute you just like sign up because, like, your kid is standing over you and bothering you and you actually haven't really thought about it.

Yeah, but you know, I have a couple thoughts on that. Yeah, I can struggle with things in that way. And my husband always says to me when I'm struggling with the decision that one side of how I frame a question is like known risk and the other one is like always all upside. Because, like, I don't actually. Because that's what you do when you don't name the other side, like, should I do this or not? Well, if I send to school, it could be like, Covid this, this. And you're not realizing that the other one has some known risk too. But as long as you don't quantify it or name it, it just has infinite upside and no risk. So I think that that's really, really powerful. I feel like what anxiety is, is something unknown about the future, coupled with our underestimation of our ability to cope, that we chronically underestimate our coping abilities because you can't cope with a worry. We, I think as humans, we actually cope very, very well with problems. But in this day and age, we have many, many more worries in the future. You know, sometimes and we have problems in front of us and we kind of like forget. We always underestimate that. Okay, if that thing does happen, like, I probably won't enjoy it. It might be inconvenient, but like, I actually am someone who has coped with hard things and, and I'll get through it again. You know, whether it's decision fatigue or decision handicapping or not making the decision, if you think that's a part of it, the underestimation of coping that people have or what. What does get in people's way of making decisions?

Yeah, I think it is some of the underestimation of coping. I think the other piece of it is that once you have made an active choice, you could be wrong and people don't like to be wrong. And if you don't really make the choice, then, then even though, yes, it could turn out badly, you haven't chosen to be wrong. And so I think this comes up. It came up a lot in Covid. So I think, you know, if I choose to send my kid to childcare and they get Covid, even if the chance that they got Covid was basically the same, whether I sent them to childcare or not, I've made the choice and then the outcome that I fear occurs. It feels like I chose wrong. And we sort of don't like to be wrong. So I think that's a kind of piece of it that sort of committing to an active choice gives us responsibility for the choice. And in part, I actually like. I think that's why it's sort of valuable to frame it as two options. Because then you have to make a choice. Right. There's a recognition that not doing anything is also a choice choice. And it doesn't let you off the hook for this, you know, for this idea that you. You've made a choice, you just kind of made it by accident. Yeah.

And then we're kind of back to that cycle of self blame. When we struggle, like so many of us, it's almost like impossible, it feels to disentangle. It's like, oh, wait, I could struggle or end up being in a hard situation and not blame myself. Because you're saying people end up blaming themselves who they think, oh, I made this decision.

Yeah.

Um, but they're almost two different things. Like, I made a decision with the information I had at the time. Okay. Now I have different information. It. It stinks. And I can cope from here versus oh, it's all my fault.

Yeah, exactly. No, I think we really. It's really valuable to separate, like, this decision was right ex ante and this decision turned out to be wrong ex post. Right. So like, I could have made the right choice. And most of the choices we make, or many of them, there could be something, you know, negative that. That could happen. But the confidence that comes with having made the right choice can sometimes help us navigate through that. Actually, one of the things I talk about in the book, not in the COVID but think about the example of an extracurricular. We decide to enroll our kid in travel soccer. And some of the time you've chosen to do that, then sometimes it's really terrible. Your kid hates the travel soccer. You drive around all the time. Every weekend is meant to this activity. Nobody likes it, everybody's unhappy. Okay, that could happen, maybe it won't. And one of the things that happens, I think, because people don't want to be wrong, is they will sometimes re up these activities or these things that they don't that were not good. Because by not doing it again next year, it's like saying, I messed up last year. And I think there's a way to sort of push back on that a little, to sort of address that a little bit psychologically by, like, planning to revisit these things by saying, you know, we're going to choose this for this year, and we are going to explicitly acknowledge we could learn more after this year, and then we are going to plan to revisit it. And then it's. When you revisit if it was a disaster. Well, it's not that you were wrong. I mean, you know, maybe that wasn't the right choice in the moment, but you had planned to revisit. It was an experiment. I think sometimes we can sort of trick ourselves a little bit with tools like that.

I love that. I also find the idea of, like, a mistake more and more. I feel like, is that, like, really a thing? Like, I actually feel.

Learning experience.

Yeah. Like, if you make the best decision you can with the information you have, then when you have more information and you, you know, zoom out, you might make a different decision. But again, it makes me think about you and your friend with the epidural. Like, you actually went through the same process. Like, I now I made the best decision with the information I had a year later. Now, I know my child complained every single car ride. Now I know that, you know, whatever, I have this whole year of information. But I. I don't think it means the first decision was ever a mistake. Like, I find it's like, a very disrespectful word to our. To ourselves. Like, why is that a mistake? Because information changed. Right. And I think, again, it goes. All this stuff is all related because it's this way where we so often define our internal goodness by a single kind of external moment. I breastfed. I'm a good mom. Or I, oh, I have to sign up for soccer again. I know what you mean. Cause I just signed up for soccer last week, and I can't face, you know, quote, being wrong. Like, that's. That's a manifestation, if I'm more focused internally of, like, okay, what do I know? What information do I have? What uncertainty do I just have to cope with? Well, that process I'm probably going to replicate over and over. Like, that's the process that matters, and it's going to take me different places. Right.

Yeah.

What is something that. Beyond the data, like, beyond everything you know. You know so much that. That you struggle with as a parent or that you, the data just doesn't kind of come together to give you ease. That's still hard.

I find that as my kids have gotten older, you know, the data is, it can be helpful, but it is, it is often sort of less. There's less of it. And the choices that we're making are much more specific to our kids. And I think there are a lot of things with my younger kid in particular where I am just not sure that I'm doing, I'm doing it right. It's almost or like quite how to deal with the force of will that comes with a willful seven year old. And what I found interesting about that is almost the need for, for experimentation around all of these different parenting strategies and kind of figuring out what works for, for you. So like the other day, you know, my son didn't want to, I don't know, he didn't feel good. Oh he'd been on some antibiotics so his stomach was bothering him. He didn't want to go to camp. And it's the kind of thing for us that can sort of very rapidly move into a, a kind of place where like he's in his bed and I cannot like physically move him out of his bed. And I, we can't go to camp. And also I have to go to my job. And so it's like a little bit. And, and in that moment it actually like, like what, what I did ended up working, like telling him like we can be late if we can be a few minutes late. Can you, you know, sit? Why don't you sit and eat a cracker? You do have to go to camp. That's not negotiable. But you can sit and eat these crackers. You can bring their cracker to camp. And like we ended up going and having a very nice like very nice time and we were not late because I always plan to be like 45 minutes early. So we were late. But that, that is not the like norm for that outcome. And, and it was sort of the fact that I was so happy about like call my husband. I was like we had this and then it worked out and he was like okay, great. But it is a place where I have found it to be somewhat resistant to sort of broad data and even resistant to my own like attempts to collect personal data about what works in the, in the moment.

Well, I appreciate you sharing that because also.

Oh yes.

It just confused. Confirms that you are like every, every one of us who. Yes. Who you know, we have this knowledge and me too. And I always need to say it because you know, my kids don't have some like Dr. Becky Person as their mom. Right. They have me with my triggers and my own stresses and you know, moments that sometimes feel really good and sometimes feel confusing. And you know, in some ways I feel like that's the data we all do need as parents is like the data of knowing a hundred percent of parents find parenting hard.

Yes, it's hard. It's just hard.

It's just hard.

It's just hard. Um, and you know, you gotta celebrate the wins and you know, like give yourself grace on the times when you know you actually are like literally picking up your 7 year old and carrying them out the door like over your shoulder because actually you have to do have to go to camp.

Yeah, some moments are like that. You know, my, in my house too. Well, tell everyone listening if they don't already know how to find more of you.

So let's see. So, so in the, in the professional space, you know, I'm working, I'm working a lot on the newsletter and sort of really trying to, you know, to make that as useful as possible I guess is the way.

And it's amazing. So tell everyone. People need, you need a little more air time for your and newsletter. Like such a disservice to like the amazing work that you put out in an email.

So it's called parent data and it comes out as substack newsletters do in your, in your email. But it really, you know the, I think the goal in the newsletter is to sort of dive into the new evidence, new data around parenting and help parents, you know, navigate the things that, that come up, navigate some of these hard decisions, see what the data says. You know, know it's, it's a little bit of a combination of, you know, here's a new fact. Like all of a sudden apparently there's toxic metals in baby food. Like help me and you know, trying to, to write people through those kind of choices or what are the AP breastfeeding guidelines like really based on. And then I, you know, I do write some about COVID again around these, these data pieces. So you can find me at parent data emily oster.substack.com youm can find me on Instagram at Prof. Emily Oster at. Those are probably my two most important. And you can find me in my books which are for sale where books are sold.

I really feel like you have like truly changed so much for, for parents. You've helped empower so many women to like get back in touch with the parts of motherhood that are not about self sacrifice and to give themselves permission to do that and redefine what good mothering is. So thank you and I know this is just one of many conversations we will have and can't wait for the next one.

I hope so. And thank you. Thank you both for those lovely words. That is what I wanted to accomplish and so I hope I have done part of it. And yeah, I would love to talk again. I just really enjoyed this.

This was amazing. Thanks for listening to Good Inside. I love co creating episodes with you based on the real life tricky situations in your family. To share what's happening in your home, you can call 646-598-2543 or email a voice note to goodinsidepodcastmail.com There are so many more strategies and tips I want to share with you and so many Good Inside parents I want you to meet. I'm beyond excited that we now have a way to connect and learn together. Head to goodinside.com to learn more about Good Inside membership. I promise you you're going to love it. It's totally game changing and if you're not already receiving my free weekly email, go to goodinside.com to sign up. You don't want to miss it. Good inside with Dr. Becky is produced by Mary Kelly, our Senior Producer is Beth Rowe, and our Executive Producer Producers are Erica Belsky and me. If you enjoyed this episode, please do take a moment to rate and review it or share this episode with a friend or family member as a way to start an important conversation. Let's end by placing our hands on our hearts and reminding ourselves. Even as I struggle, and even as I have a hard time on the outside, I remain Good Inside.