Monica and Adam Mosseri on Managing Separation Anxiety

You're listening to Good inside with Dr. Becky, and today I'll be talking about how to manage difficult separations with your kids. So many of you have been asking for an episode on this topic, and here it is, right after a word from our sponsor. Hi, I'm Dr. Becky and this is Good Inside. I'm a clinical psychologist and mom of three on a mission to rethink the way we raise our children. I love translating deep thoughts about parenting into practical, actionable strategies that you can use in your home right away. One of my core beliefs is that we are all doing the best we can with the resources we have available to us in in that moment. So even as we struggle and even.

As we are having a hard time.

On the outside, we remain Good Inside. Today I'm talking with Instagram CEO Adam Masseri and his wife, Monica Mosseri. Parents of three young boys.

Adam and Monica open up about their.

Eldest separation struggles and how it surfaces when they leave to go out for dinner or try to separate at soccer practice. We brainstorm together about what is going on when kids scream at your departure or refuse to join a class and how to help our kids with the struggles they're having underneath these painful moments. Here's something I want to say before we dive in. It's normal for kids to protest separation. After all, we are their rocks and their source of stability. And moving away from us can feel really scary. To help our kids in these moments, we need to ground ourselves in what our role is versus what our kids role is. And also we need to build skills outside separation moments that our kids can use during the separation moments. Well, lucky for you, Adam, Monica and I cover all of this in our short conversation. So let's jump in.

Adam and Monica, I'm so, so honored, so happy to have you here. Thank you for talking with me.

Thanks for having us.

Thanks for having us.

We're fans. So excited to be here.

Thank you for what you do.

We were listening to the podcast on a drive recently, just trying to be.

Better, keep it together. Trying to keep it together and be present parents.

Well, when I record, you know, I often will record something and listen to it a lot later and review it and I seriously will hear things that I say and I'll be like, I have no recollection of saying that. I could have used that yesterday with my own kids. But now that I'm reviewing it, I'm gonna try that today. So we're in the same boat, listening to podcasts, trying to do better. So let's Jump in. Just tell me a little bit about who you guys are and what's on your mind today.

So let's see. We have three children, three boys. Our oldest is five, our middle is three, and our youngest is one and a half. And we're currently adjusting back to what is sort of a new normal. We have our kids back in school and it wasn't the case last year. And we have a younger one and a half year old who's starting to interact with other people and children who hasn't for the last two years.

It's a Covid baby.

Yes.

So he doesn't know people outside the pod.

And we're experiencing some challenging transitions back, particularly with our five year old. And so I think some of the things we were excited to get your advice on were specific to him, but then do sort of play out with our others as well.

Challenging is like almost putting it a little bit lightly. It's been a pretty rough couple months, especially with the kids in and out of school with COVID scares or anytime they get a cough, you know, out of school. PCR tests, we have, you know, colds run through the boys one at a time. So we had one sick yesterday, a different one sick this morning. And so we've had, we've had some highs and some lows, I think is fair to say.

I think that's right. And then in addition to that, having, you know, a five year old and a three year old and a one year old, getting used to this new schedule where they're away from us, they're meeting new people, they're in a school learning new things and they've been used to being by our side even while we been working, you know, in and out of the house for the, for the last year and a half. So we're struggling and we need Dr. Becky's help.

I have three kids too. Mine are a little bit more spaced out, but it's been really rough. I mean, I think I would say the same thing. Challenging is like a, I don't know, a nice enough euphemism for how it can feel. Right. And the way we're all unwinding, I don't even know if unwinding is the right word, but somewhat unwinding from at least the most intense phase thus far, I hope, ever, of the pandemic. It's been significant, right? I mean, it's like a lot on us, it's a lot on our kids. It's so many transitions, it's so many changes. It's so Much uncertainty. One set of rules, another set of rules. Right. Nothing that we can really stay grounded in.

So.

Makes sense, I think, you, your house, my house. Like, we are definitely not the only two homes that are experiencing a lot of struggles. So let's jump into the specifics. Can I hear about whatever specifically is on your mind? Like here's a situation or here's the kind of theme.

Yeah, I think the most recent one is really, maybe the theme is sort of attachment. And I would say we haven't left the kids really over the last year and a half, but we've started to get in a groove and do date night and have a couple of work obligations and friend obligations that take us out from dinner and our 5 year old can't handle it. Where are you going? Why aren't you gonna stay for dinner? You always leave us.

You don't spend enough time, spend enough time with us. He gets really sad. He starts to cry.

We've tried to give him a heads up. We've, you know, given him our schedule for the week.

You know, we do Thursday date night. So he knows it's coming. That helps a little bit.

And you know, after a day of school and after just feeling emotional, he breaks down and he cries and he usually loses it and we're trying to get out of the house and not be too late or canc. Which, you know, we've sometimes done if we're feeling really exhausted and just get out of the house and just sort of extract ourselves.

But he needs to be like physically held by the nanny so that we can close the door. Like it's that level of intensity.

Yep. So, yeah, that's what I want to know. So when you said he can't handle it. Right. He's telling you he doesn't like it. He's telling you he's upset. Okay, but it's more intense than that.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. He will, like, he will try and follow us out the door. So we have to. Have to put him. He's not a small kid. You have to put him in the nanny's arms and like tell him you love him. Tell him we'll be back in two hours and it closed the door and he will come around. But he, but once we leave, he can be upset for a period of time and then he can get really mean and kind of lets that anger out on the nanny, which is not great either. But clearly he's struggling. Clearly he's dealing with a lot. And so we're just trying to figure out how we can help him with this transition.

Yeah.

And just so I know, is it the same type of separation struggles when he goes to school or is it. Is that different?

Less when he goes to school? Mostly when we're removing ourselves from, you know, dinner or having to be out for a couple hours on a Sunday morning.

We went to a wedding, like that kind of thing.

Exactly.

And before we get into some kind of brainstorming together, what comes up for you guys in those moments when kind of the doors close, you're in the car, you're walking to where you're going, like, what's that like?

At first it's guilt because, oh, did I not spend enough time with him today? What have been my hours of quality time with him this week? I start to quickly run through my head, head around things, you know, reflect back on the week.

And he throws some psychological bombs.

Yeah.

He'll be like, you spend. I spend more time with the nanny than I spend with you. You don't love me enough. Like, you know, you don't. You know, he'll throw out some pretty serious emotional guilt.

So at first it's guilt and then it quickly. Because we try to talk him down and then it quickly becomes sort of honestly like we're becoming impatient. Right.

Yeah.

And so. And then we have to extract ourselves and then the first 30 minutes for us are unwind as well. Cause what do we do? How do we make, how do we get him better prepared? What can we do to make this easier on ourselves? Is it worth going out right now? Should we work through this phase?

Yeah, we have to come down.

Right.

Should we work through this phase and then start introducing our, you know, date nights and other obligations? Should one of us leave, one of us stay, we really, we're really struggling.

And maybe one more piece of data collection on my end before we go further. So he's saying like, you don't love me. You spend, you spend more time at your job than you spend with me. You spend more time with this person.

Like, Right.

Kids say all types of things that are a dagger to our heart. Right. Seriously, just tell me, what would I be seeing inside the home? One of you is saying what back or doing what in response?

Usually it would be one of us. So one of us would try and so one of us would like talk to him, give him a hug, hold him, say, hey, we're going to be back in two hours. It helps if we're more specific. So you think we'll be back around 8:30? Maybe he'll still be up because he goes to bed around 7:38, but sometimes he's still up. When you come in your room, we'll give you a kiss. You know, it's Thursday. We always do this every Thursday. You kind of like. You kind of like try to walk him through it, but he's so triggered. He's like in an emotional. He's out of control. Like, he's not like physically hitting necessarily or that kind of thing, but he's, he's not. It's hard to reason with him. So we just try to, like, ground him as much as we can. And then sometimes he will get there. And if he gets there, basically it might be 20 minutes of this or 25 minutes of like this sort of like, like tantrum kind of style. But if he gets there, he'll then say, he's like, okay, bye. He'll say bye. And that's his way of like, indicating that he's actually accepted that we're going to leave.

But sometimes you won't have the 30 minutes to give him to, to work through it. So we have to say.

We actually never do. We're almost always late to do.

Yeah. Like, we have to say, we love you. We'll see you soon. We'll be back tonight. He's all. He's wondering sometimes, are you. We're usually always, you know, like, there's been. We've had one weekend away. He's. Are you. Will be back tonight? Will I wake up in the morning and you'll be there?

Yeah.

And so there's serious. There's anxiety.

And we tag in and out here.

Right.

Cause if one of us feels like one of us is getting short or about to get short, we'll kind of have the other one go in and talk to him and switch.

And it sounds like, I just want to make the assumption based on what you said, it sounds like he's staying with someone. He knows it's not. That's correct. Okay, just so I know. Okay, so a couple ideas. First of all, his feelings about you're going out. And I mean, it's really important for us to separate from your decision about going out.

Right.

So the intensity of his feelings about it does not indicate to me that you're making a bad decision that we shouldn't, you know, do this.

Right.

He's in an environment, it sounds like, where he's safe.

Like, he's safe.

He. He's staying in his house. He knows this other person. He's very comfortable. You trust that other person. Right. And he Would rather you not do this. And it's a huge change from a year and a half of probably never leaving him on a Thursday night.

Correct.

Right. And I know it sounds like such a basic idea, but I think so often, I mean, I do this with my kids too. Like, I'll think, like, how can I get my kid to do this or to stop doing this versus okay, my kid's gonna do that, and I kind of need to help. But, like, how can I show up in a way that I have control over? Because when I show up a little bit differently, the system's different. And kids change when the system changes. So we're gonna get more concrete than that. But that's like an overarching thing I'm thinking about. So first thing, talking about this for 20 minutes.

Way too long.

Way too long.

Right.

It's ruminative. It's just kind of cycling. Right. And he's not able to get the thing he even wants, which is you just to stay home.

Right.

And you're not really gonna be able to get the thing you want, which is. It would be lovely if he said, oh, makes sense. Mom and dad, like, go have a date night. So good for your marriage.

So great.

Like, have fun. Like, not gonna happen. And also not his job.

Right.

It's just not. It's not our kid's job to make us feel good about, you know, our time away from them. Right. He's definitely experiencing separation anxiety. But in a way, the more we linger sometimes and stay and stay and stay. Now, of course, I wouldn't suggest just peacing out either. There's a lot in between, but it can actually kind of just make a kid cycle more in their anxious state. So if you're leaving your house at I'm making this up, 7:30, and you're like, oh, we're off in late and we have a. Whatever time the reservation is, but we have to leave at 7:30. I actually think it's important for the two of you to be like, we're leaving at 7:30. And actually keeping this period shorter is really important because what he's gonna get.

Is we're not gonna try to convince.

Him out of this feeling. That's what we're doing in those 20 minutes. We're trying to kind of convince him out of the feeling or don't feel it as intensely. When our kids feel like we're as scared of their feelings as they are, the feelings get worse. And one of the reasons kids feel like we're scared of their feelings Is that we don't wanna tolerate it being there. We try to get them out of it. So as an example, I think instead of like, hey, we do this every Thursday night. And like, it's gonna be okay. Hey, Nico, listen, we're going out. You're gonna be really upset. That's okay. You're gonna cry and, you know, whatever the nanny's name is is gonna be with you. And at some point the feeling is gonna start to feel better. And then mom are gonna come back. That's what's about to happen. I'm gonna take a break. And next part would pretty soon after look like this. We're about to go. I'm gonna give you one hug. I know it's gonna feel really hard.

And then we are turning and we are walking away. You're safe. We love you.

We'll see you in the morning. That's the separation routine. Anything more than that makes the anxiety cycle go around and around and around. So tell me thoughts about that, reactions to that, how that's similar, different from what you do currently.

I think what happens is I think we. One of us will struggle in the moment to sort of do it just because.

Right, Because.

Because usually it's. Usually the predominant emotion is guilt, not frustration to stuff.

Correct? Correct.

But, yeah, no, I think that makes a ton of sense. I do feel like one of the things that's very clear about him is that he struggles with transitions more broadly. And I do feel like it's really helpful to just think about the job in those moments as getting him through that transition and not necessarily having him be, like, happy about it. And I feel like there. There have been. We've gotten better in a number of other parts of how we parent him through transitions. But I think in general, we've made a mistake in a number of different places where we just drag it out too long, try to convince him, and he's not going to be convinced because he's saying things. And so your rational self wants to argue with his things that he's saying, which don't make sense. But the truth is, yes, we're missing the point. And so we struggle with it, I think, is the answer to what you're saying. But it does. It is. It is something that we've talked about before. I think of it a little bit as, like, this sounds mean, but like, pulling the band aid off and just going because.

And just sort of. Honestly, I probably just need to practice exactly that. Those words.

I mean, you're getting to that next part. Like it is practice. And there's be a lot of other things we're talking about. Because even leading with this might be like. That sounds a little harsh. I don't know. I mean, there's a lot of other things we're going to do to kind of. I don't know about compensate, but, like, complete the package.

Right?

But at the moment of separation, right? When a kid is kind of really saying to you, even though he's never saying to you this, is this safe? Am I going to be okay if we say anything? But I know you don't feel safe.

But I know you're safe.

I know you're worried, and I see that, and that's valid, but I'm not worried for you. If we say anything but that our kids read, oh, my God, forget me being worried. My parents are worried.

Holy moly.

And of course, our anxiety spikes. I don't know if you've heard me talk about this, but it's like when you're on an airplane, if you're scared of turbulence and you hear the pilot, scared of turbulence, you're literally not scared of the turbulence anymore. You're scared that that guy's your pilot. You're like, oh, okay, Right. But you also want a pilot who's going to say to you, you're scared of the turbulence. That's okay. That makes sense. You're allowed to feel as scared as you want to feel. I know how to get through this, and I know we're gonna still land, you know, in Los Angeles. And so I'm gonna just go back to my cockpit and, like, do my job.

Right?

That actually is so important. Right? When our feelings become contagious to other people, it's actually our worst nightmare. Because then we get somewhat of external validation that things actually are as bad as they feel. Beyond validating the emotion, which I know people talk about a lot, right? Like, you're. You're upset, or you wish we didn't go out. That's great. Sometimes kids, especially as they get older, some kids actually find that annoying, right? And they respond better to validating the magnitude of the emotion. So rather than, you're upset, we're going out, Nico. You're not upset we're going out. You're not, like, upset the way you'd be upset, you know, if your block tower fell down. You're upset, like, as big as this house. Forget that. You're as upset as big as this neighborhood. You're upset as big as this whole. Bigger than the country. Okay. Is it North America? Right. Whatever you want to play around with. You're upset as a 10. Oh, it's not a 10. It's in a hundred. If he likes numbers, just use the size. And that really speaks to kids. Because I think what he's looking for. And this is going to tie into another point. I think it's even why he says such biting things to you. He's looking for you to see that this isn't just painful. This is very painful. Again, very painful. Doesn't mean he's not safe, and it doesn't mean you don't have to go out. He's just looking for that to be seen and validated and for the two of you to kind of be sturdy leaders through that. So that's another thing. You could do that in a moment or I think a lot can be done outside the moment, too. So it's the next morning. Oh, last night was really hard, huh? You know what I'm thinking about? You know the other day that you. You got really, really mad because you missed the soccer net right? When you were playing? Got so mad the goal didn't go in. That was mad. That wasn't like last night, though. Like, last night was huge, Matt. Like, how big was it? And even kids will even. They'll show you. Like, oh, it is this big. That's how much I hate you going out to dinner. And that's actually the type of validation kids are looking for. Because for me, if I came home and I told my husband, like, I had some horrible day, I got fired, I. I don't know, like, horrible things happen, like, in my life. If he was just like, oh, that sounds bad. I'd be like, no, like, for. You don't understand, right? I'd be like, no, no, no. And I would probably even escalate my expression because what I'd want him to say is, oh, that's not normal bad. That's like the worst day ever. And then I'd be like, okay, that's that connection.

Even hearing you talk about that, he does use very angry sometimes. Like, he will try to let us know. And so we really have to acknowledge it, which I don't think we're doing. I think we're trying to bring him down versus acknowledging it.

We're definitely trying to bring him down. We definitely acknowledge it, but we're not acknowledging the magnitude. Magnitude. One of the things that's kind of interesting is he's. As much as he struggles, he is good at expressing how he feels. Like, he'll say, I'm so frustrated right now. And like draw out the so really far. Or like another thing that we struggle with a little bit is kind of. I don't think it's a separation anxiety. But like, when we take him to soccer, he'll just like refuse to play because I think he's worried that he's going to like, mess it up or he doesn't know how because he hasn't been doing it for a year and all the kids have sort of advanced while he was gone. And he'll say, I don't like how I feel right now. I don't want to feel this way, but I don't know how to make it stop. He'll be very expressive, which I think helps. But when he gets triggered, whether it's anxious or mad or upset, it's pretty all encompassing, which I assume is standard. But it is more so with him than with others.

But it brings up another point, which is this example that Adam spoke about is also been challenging where we signed him up for a soccer league outside of school. So different set of friends, all outside. He did it when he was three. It's been two years.

He loved it when he was three.

And he. It's week five. We go on Monday and he will not play. He has all of these emotions and he, I think, is worried. I was trying to extract what was happening over the last five weeks. Cause every week has sort of been. I've gotten him more information and we've just sat there. But he's feeling like he doesn't want to fail and he doesn't. He's not as comfortable with playing. He's not as much in the routine as the other kids. Well, at least that he's observing and he's having these intense emotions and he's communicating. I don't know why I'm feeling this way. I don't like it. I don't know why I'm feeling this way. And talking to him when he's not in that state, I'm getting more of. I don't really know how to play. What if they don't like me? What if I mess up?

I feel like even though we're transitioning to another topic, there is this. The similarity, like when he feels something, like you said, it's just like it's so big and it can freeze him in like whatever state he's in. And it's hard to. It's like a little hard to move on from that.

Exactly.

Yeah. And there's something similar. I mean, one is us Leaving one is, I'm trying something new. So obviously it's different, but there's some. There's like a thread around, like just being super anxious and nervous and it being just, like you said, just totally overwhelming. He just gets consumed by it.

So he's there saying to you, I don't know why I'm feeling this way. Right? Kind of I am and I'm stuck or some. I'm frozen. He's kind of saying that, right? So one of the most powerful things I think we can say to our kids is some version of. Sometimes we feel things and we have no idea why. And actually sometimes we never figure out why, but it's still okay to feel that way. I believe you. You feel that way, and we'll figure it out. More uncomfortable than any feeling is feeling alone in a feeling or feeling like you're judging that feeling, because then you're actually adding elements to the feeling that make it sticky. The feelings themselves are not sticky. It's the stuff we add to them. And sometimes the quest to, like, understand and figure it out and figure it out can actually almost be shameful, or it can just be overwhelming. And so I think there's some good, you know, experimenting. That's what I would say you can do. I'm talking about on the weekend. And I don't know if you do this anyway, but there's some narrative a lot of us have just bought into of, like, don't bring it up. Like, don't put those ideas in their head. Like, it's just not true. Right? We don't put thoughts or feelings in our kids head. And it's usually not talking about stuff that gives our kids problems, not talking about it in advance. So let's say it's Saturday. I'd be like, nico, I'm just thinking about soccer. I'm wondering if you're gonna have that feeling. The.

Like, we don't even know what to.

Name it, but just everything feels bad and you don't really want to do it. Like, I just. I wonder if you'll have that. What would he say?

Yes. I hate soccer.

Very strong language.

I don't want to go to soccer.

Yeah, I'd push it. Like, Interesting. It's so funny. I just called the. I don't know what to call it. You're calling it that. I hate soccer. I don't want to go. I feel like there's still a lot to figure out about that feeling. But here's something I know when it comes up, and here's that Magnitude thing. I feel like when it comes up, it's huge. It's, like, so big. It's like another one of those, like, whoa, really big feelings. When you feel it, it's almost like if the feeling had words, it would be saying to you, you can't do soccer while I'm here. You can't do soccer while I'm here. It, like, tells you not to do soccer, and it feels really, really bad. What I'm trying to do there is validate it and kind of get curious about it, but not insinuate that this feeling locks him into, like, any one set of actions. And even the idea that a feeling says something or that a feeling wants to make something happen, we're doing something so powerful. We're really doing an act of mindfulness, which is the idea that there's a Nico and then there's something happening inside him, right? So as soon as any of us can say to ourselves, oh, there's this thought, whatever it is, there's this thought that I'm a bad parent, or there's that thought that I'm not doing a good job at work. The thoughts don't have the same power because we're noticing it instead of the thought kind of becoming us. And this is, like, the first step I would want to be working on with him. And you being kind of like a naive scientist is just, like, a really good stance to take because it helps us look at things instead of judge them. You're just kind of data collecting, right? And you could ask a number of questions on Saturday. When that feeling comes up on Monday, do you think it'll be as big as last Monday or the same or bigger? Let's just, like, make some predictions, and maybe he's like, it'll be bigger. Oh, interesting. Like, so if it was at, like, here, like, is it gonna be here? If it's out of 10, is it.

Be, like, an 11?

Like 100? If it was the size of, you know, a beach ball, is it now gonna be the size of a restaurant? Like, whatever language would help him. The questions don't matter, obviously. It really doesn't. But what you're doing is you're creating a way to engage around the feeling. You're actually creating movement, which is the opposite of what you said happens, which is like, this feeling comes up, and it's just like, game over. That's the thing we want to shift. The feeling freezes him versus something he can look at. So before I go further, tell me about how that might go on A weekend. Could you imagine playing around with that with him?

Yeah, absolutely. I think using numbers and just giving him that way to describe his feelings, I think would be helpful. I'm guessing he would say, I don't.

Want to talk about it.

He might say, he didn't want to talk about it.

Great.

But if I catch him and he's willing to say, he'll say that my anger is like a million or a billion.

Great.

And if he says that, this is what I would say back. I am so glad you told me that. Because if it's that big, just going must feel really hard. No wonder you don't want to go. It makes sense. Oh, wow. That is such a big number. I didn't know that until you told me. I'm so glad. Or talking about this. I'm seriously just over and over, just kind of connecting. Connecting. Connecting on it. Connecting on it. Which is the opposite of that kind of frozen, everyone get away from me state. Now. If he says, I don't want to talk about it, that'll be perfectly normal. I'd be totally nonchalant. I'd be like, oh, that makes sense. Like, sometimes parents ask really annoying things, you know? You know what's so weird? You know what I never told you. Did I ever tell you about the time blank? This is like one of my favorite strategies, and I hate to call it a strategy because it feels too clinical. And I think it's really helpful also in the separation anxiety kind of situation. Did I ever tell you about the time that I was in a drama class and I was the lead? I was the lead. And then the next year, you're never going to guess what happened. You're never going to guess the part I got. You're never going to guess it. Do you think I got the lead? And he's going to be like, I don't know. No, right? And be like, I did it and I didn't want to go. So essentially what we're doing is we're solving for the aloneness. Like we. We always want to solve for the aloneness. And one of the things I'm often trying to think about is like the idea of de shaming your house, which sound like a constantly shame, is the experience of feeling alone. And if kids feel alone in something, they actually feel unconnectable. And going back, to use the word attachment. Attachment is what is like the prime evolutionary force for kids. They need to attach. And so if they feel unconnectable and alone, they freeze in an animal defense state because it's actually like, non conducive to survival. So we always want to be helping our kids feel less alone. And it's obvious to us, oh, I've not wanted to join things. Like, oh, I have felt not good at things. But if we're not actually sharing those stories with our kids, they have no reason to believe those things have ever happened. Because our kids, and I'm going to venture to say this about your kids especially, you two seem like extremely capable, smart, successful people. Is that like an okay thing to say out loud?

We appreciate that.

Hanging on my thread.

Yeah, yeah, we appreciate that. Sure. We'll take it.

We'll take it, though.

But I don't mean it as a compliment. I didn't mean that. It worked. You might not appreciate it. It works against us. Right? Like, he. I don't know how many times he's been like, oh, I just remember my dad being plagued with anxiety and he can't even leave the house. I just remember my mom being plagued by uncertainty and feeling worse than everyone at something she does. Yep, that's all around me. And so if that feels like a solitary experience and no one else has ever been in that position, then he's gonna get that much more frozen. Forget. Because the feeling feels bad. Just because he feels so alone in that different. So different. And then so bad. Yeah, right. And I can't even tell you with my kids, like, they will come up to me, they'll be like, my daughter will fall on the sidewalk and skin her knee. And she'd be like, did you ever, when you were my age, fall and skin your knee while walking on Broadway? You know, like, like. And I was like, yeah, I. I act. I can't believe I didn't tell you that. I. I did. But they're really just saying, like, am I good? Am I lovable? Right. Am I okay having this experience? And so I would share that. And then building off that, he needs to feel like you're uninvested in his joining soccer. And that's hard to do. So you have to fake it because, like, oh, boy.

Yeah, I gotta pivot.

It's okay. I can do this. But you have to be uninvested. Because the last thing we want to do is take a situation that's hard and now add a power struggle to it where if now his not joining soccer is a way to define himself. We don't win because kids at all age are trying to figure out who they are separate from their parents. So if they can not do soccer As a way of saying, oh, I really do know on my own person. Like, it's just gonna be frustrating for everyone. So I think you want to give them a story on Saturday when you talk about this. Look, we are gonna go. I really mean this. Maybe this is even different from what I've said. You totally don't have to join. And I would say this, after all, it's your body. I don't know exactly what's going on in there. And you are always the only one who will know when you're comfortable doing something, that's always gonna be true. I could cry thinking about that. Because if I want my kids to have one narrative about themselves when they go into the world, it's, I'm the only one in my body and I'm the only one who knows how I feel. Like, I think that's the most self protective kind of self talk in the world. And I would give that to him. And then around that, not at soccer, these stories you tell, like, if you tell this story of, you know, not wanting to go to basketball, I think the quote resolution we want to give our kids is, it's so interesting. One day I did join just for one drill. You know what's so weird?

I didn't want to do it and I did the drill.

Like, I kind of thought I'd want to do it and then I join in, but that's totally not what happened. I had the feeling and I kind of said to myself, it's okay to not want to do it. I'm going to still give it a try. It's okay to feel uncomfortable. I'm going to still give it a try. And that's why we're back to this kind of two things can be true idea. We're not trying to get rid of his hesitation. We're trying to help him engage while having hesitation. Truly, when he's a little bit more ready than he is now. And I think if you add all those elements of talking about in advance, kind of talking about the magnitude of the feeling, focusing on connection and curiosity, maybe telling a story, backing away from the outcome. Yeah, I think it'll loosen a little bit over time. There's a lot there. Tell me your thoughts.

Yeah, there's no. Yeah, there's a lot there. And I think you're pretty spot on around him, feeling like he's alone and needs to be heard. And so it's very clear that that's happening and just leaning in to acknowledge it more and being, let's say, for Theatrical, exaggerating, playful about it is the right direction forward, because it can be really taxing. Right. And so sometimes I find myself shutting down. It's okay. We can sit here. But I think being a little bit more playful about it, because he's very playful and fun, it could be a really great approach. And so I really like what you had said and some of the suggestions there.

I think relating to it is going to be easier than convincing him that we don't care about these kinds of things. Because, I mean, I was the same way as a kid. So, like, I see a lot of this as, like. As me, but, like, I wouldn't want to, like, go and do something new with my dad when he was playing with my brother, because it just was. I don't know, it wasn't even that I was afraid I was gonna fail. Just Was just there was just, like, anxious about it. So I have a lot of stories I can tell him to make him feel less alone. I think that'll be much easier than us.

He knows. Best friend.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Just.

He's really observant in that front, but I do think we can get through with storytelling.

No, we should do it. It's gonna be harder to pull off. Cause he is. One of the reasons why he is sensitive is he's. I think he's hyper observant. Like, he just takes in a lot. But. But so. But yeah, I think those two tools, I think, are both pretty compelling.

Well, you guys are. I really mean this, like, amazingly open and reflective, and those things just bode really well, I think, you know, on your life and parenting journeys. So thank you so much for. For talking with me.

Yeah. Thank you for the time and the advice.

Really appreciate it.

Thank you, Adam and Monica, for sharing so much about what's going on in your home and for allowing us to explore different dynamics around separation. Let's tie it all together with three takeaways. One, keep your goodbyes short. We actually want to spend a lot of time exploring separation dynamics and practicing how to say bye and speaking to underlying fears. And when the moment comes to say goodbye, do your routine. Don't linger, and then leave and project confidence. Two, when kids struggle to separate or join something, remind yourself, my goal isn't to help my child get out of a feeling. It's to help my child tolerate the feeling. Three, let's help our kids feel less alone in their struggles. When our kids feel less alone and more connected, all feelings become more manageable. You can help your kid feel less alone through storytelling. So talk to your child about moments you had a hard time separating when you were younger or about your hesitation in saying goodbye. This helps a child build resilience during difficult moments. Thanks for listening to Good Inside. There are so many more strategies and tips I want to share with you. Head to goodinside.com and sign up for Good Insider, my free weekly email with scripts and strategies delivered right to your inbox. And follow me on Instagram and Facebook @Doctor BeckyoodInside for a daily dose of parenting and self care ideas. Good inside with Dr. Becky is produced by Beth Rowe and Marie Cecile Anderson, an executive produced by Erica Belsky and me. Dr. Becky, if you enjoyed this episode, please take a moment to rate and review it or share this episode with a friend or family member as a way to start an important conversation. Let's end by placing our hands on our hearts and reminding ourselves. Even as I struggle and even as I have a hard time on the outside, I remain Good Inside.