Parenting Tweens and Teaching Consent With Hillary Frank

You're listening to good inside with Dr. Becky. I have so many ideas, strategies, and scripts to share with you right after a word from our sponsor. Hi, I'm Dr. Becky, and this is Good Inside. I'm a clinical psychologist and mom of three on a mission to rethink the way we raise our children. I love translating deep thoughts about parenting into practical, actionable strategies that you can use in your home right away. One of my core beliefs is that we are all doing the best we can with the resources we have available to us in that moment. So even as we struggle and even as we are having a hard time on the outside, we remain Good inside. Hi, Hillary. It's so good to have you on the show today.

Hi. Thanks for having me.

Why don't we start. Let the people listening, let them just kind of know who you are and the kinds of things that are on your mind.

Yeah. So I've been working in radio and podcasting for more than 20 years. I started out at this American Life, and then in 2010, I started my podcast, the Longest, Shortest Time, which is about parenting and family. And I started it right after I had my. Not right after I started it, almost a year after I had my daughter. And it was because I had a really rough childbirth and recovery and felt like I wasn't meeting anybody who was kind of willing to talk about the truth of early parenthood. Or maybe they all just had it really easy. But I started the show as a way to connect with other parents about, you know, all the various struggles that they were going through, mainly so that I could feel less alone. But as a result, it made a lot of other people feel less alone. And that ran for almost 10 years. And then I did a show called Here Lies Me, which is featured fiction, and it's about harassment in middle school. So I'm also a young adult novelist, and so I'm really interested in that age.

Well, that is all, first of all, just so resonating with me, especially what you talked about with the Longest, Shortest Time. I'm hoping people listening here have heard that. If they haven't, they should. And I think that's so similar to what I think so much of my or Good Inside's mission is too to de shame so much of parenting. That actually does happen for everyone. I don't know anyone who had had it easy. I certainly did not have it easy, you know, and then, as you know now better than I do from lived experience, it keeps being hard, right? Like, it's not like, oh, middle school Parenting middle schoolers is when, oh, you can just, you know, turn your eyes and, you know, lay on the beach and not worry about anything. I think you said no one ever, right?

Right. No, I mean, I think so. The longest, shortest time turned out to be a phrase that was applicable to every stage of parenthood. Right. It's just one longest, shortest time after another.

Everyone listening. I promise this is not going to be just a oh, you're in for it episode. It's always hard, but it is. And actually knowing what's hard, knowing what's hard for other people, knowing what can be tricky. I always think that our reactions, our thoughts, our feelings are hard enough that if you layer on surprise, that's what makes makes things just impossible. So I think for a lot of people here who are listening, with teens and tweens, they're gonna really find comfort in hearing you speak about some of these dynamics. And this is an episode to listen to also, because it's good to know what's coming up and when we know, we can empower ourselves with information, with preparation. And this is going to be an episode, really about empowerment in that way. So tell me a little bit, Hillary, like this middle school stage, you know, what, what have you found through your lived experience, through your research? I'd love to start there.

Yeah. So I did a survey. When I ended the Longest shortest time in 2019, I did a survey of my listeners, got almost 400 responses back. And I was asking about their middle school experiences, like, like people's own middle school experiences, as well as their observations of middle schoolers in their lives. So it was parents, educators, and people just talked a lot about how awful this period was for them that there, you know, a lot of people get kicked out of their friend groups. There's a lot of harassment. And harassment isn't necessarily just from your typical bullies. It can be kind of a face saving maneuver for people. Let's say someone gets teased because they're gay or present as gay, and then that person, in order to kind of protect themselves, might tease somebody else. So, so harassment and bullying is really prevalent. There was a lot about class and having the right clothes and just really wanting to fit in. Just how it feels like a life and death situation to fit in. You know, I, I also, I did not have a great middle school experience, so I could really relate to all of that. But I'll also say that a lot of the educators who answered the survey said that this is their favorite age to teach and that that is because the Kids are so kind of open minded and maybe like, not. Not naive, but, like, they are. They just are really interested in how the world works, and they're trying to figure out who they are. And they're so earnest. And I have found that to be true of my child. And this has been my favorite age as a parent.

So what I'm hearing a little is that this is an age where so many things are happening. And I kept picturing that, like, hot potato game in terms of someone gets hurt, they pass on that hurt. They kind of put it on to the next kid. They put it on to the next kid. Right. Which I think one of the things there is. It's really hard in the middle school years to regulate and kind of manage tricky social dynamics that in some ways the quickest thing to do is just, like, vomited onto the next person. And, you know, you have this cycle of hurt when it's such a tricky time with so many challenging experiences, it's also a time. Right. It seems like we can have a lot of impact. Like things are still being shaped.

Yes, absolutely. Yeah.

And so there's a couple things I was writing down as. As you were talking. Harassment. Can you. I don't know, I. I think maybe someone's listening and thinks, okay, I obviously know the definition of that word, but how it's coming up in middle school and how common that is. What does that look like in middle school?

Harassment, I think, begins in earnest in middle school. And actually, this is not a word that I had. I guess I had heard the word and I would have been able to define it for you, but I wouldn't have classified certain things that happened to me or that I observed happening to other people as harassment until the MeToo movement. And I actually started writing Here Lies Me way back in 2006, and I kind of shelved the idea at one point and brought it back in 2019 as a podcast. And the way that I was able to really reconceive of the story is because I had this word harassment. Because at first it was a story about a girl who was being bothered by a boy that it was like unrequited love. But once I had the word harassment, I was like, no, actually, it's something more sinister that's going on here. And I was also really motivated by the Brett Kavanaugh hearings because I think, you know, we hear a lot about harassment in the workplace. Harassment in college, in high school. We don't really talk about it in middle school. But I think that is where it really begins. And I think that like we were saying, kids are more open minded and willing to listen and engage with adults when they're in middle school. I think that we have an opportunity to really talk to kids about, okay, so what if you like somebody and you're pursuing them and they don't like you back? You know, we, we do a lot of socializing of. I'm just going to be like gender binary here because I think it is generally like straight boys doing this to, to girls. But so like we are socializing girls to look out for this kind of behavior and then once they start getting harassed, we tell them, okay, you either need to like find a polite way to turn this person down or they become socialized to kind of give in because they're too scared to reject somebody. And boys, I'm not really seeing them being socialized to do anything or like how to manage their emotions if they do get rejected.

So two things I'm thinking about as a parent of younger kids than middle school age, just you know, kind of myself as you're talking. And there's so much more nuance. We know that there's, you know, kids who identify in multiple ways and maybe, of course there's kids who identify as boys who actually have trouble rejecting others. Right. So for sure there's a whole range. But from what you're talking about, and I see this too in terms of precursors early, how do I help my daughter say no and mean it or some version of stop doing that, I don't like it and I need you to stop all this now. And how do I teach my son to notice signs that someone isn't interested and to respect those signs and definitely to take in, you know, the, that much clearer signs of no. I would love to hear some of the things you're thinking about around, you know, girls and boys in that way or even what you've learned from, from middle schoolers.

Yeah, I mean, I think that something I've done in my life is to talk to my daughter about personal space. This is something we start talking about in preschool and that your personal space is your personal space. Other people's personal space is their personal space. If you don't want to be touched or approached in a certain way, you have every right to say that whether it is a friend or a teacher or me, your mother or your grandfather, you know, and, and then likewise, if somebody tells you that they don't want to be touched or approached in a certain way, then you know, you need to respect that even if you know, your intentions are good and friendly. So I'm actually, I'm a person who really needs a lot of personal space. And so, and my daughter is very like, like sensory. She likes a lot of touch. And so she got a lot of practice early on with me saying, like, I don't want to be touched right now, or it's okay right now. And now, like as a 12 year old, she asks me, is it okay to lean on you right now? And I think it's important when you're giving those lessons to also say, like, if someone doesn't want to be touched, it's not personal. You know, you don't have to take it as an insult. It's just, it's about them.

Yeah.

And their needs.

So another thing comes to mind for me in that way that, you know, I think about something I've talked about with my kids from when they were young in terms of, oh, wanting to hold another kid's hand when you walk home or give a kid a hug, and then maybe there's a friend who says, I don't want to hug. It is an interesting kind of almost conundrum to present when your kids are young. That's so interesting. You really wanted to hug your friend goodbye, like you really wanted to. You love giving hugs. You wanted to give a hug and he said no to a hug. You're basically saying yes and he's saying no. Huh? What, what do we do? Or sometimes when my kids are younger, to kind of simplify it in order to kind of get a connection with which we can then kind of look into more nuance together, I might say. So who wins? Like, who wins in that situation? Like the yes or the no. And it is something that can start so young. Right. We know, Hillary, like the no wins. The no always wins. It's that person's body. You need two people to consent. We know that, but we can't teach that to kids by just saying you need two people to consent because it doesn't really speak to like the lived experience. And I think the other part there that we don't sometimes pay enough attention to. If we're talking about in this situation, the person who wants something from someone else and gets to know and we want our kid to respect the no, we have to understand that to respect the no, that kid has to have developed frustration tolerance skills. Because if you. And I'll just use a younger kid example, if I want to give someone a hug or my son wants to give his friend a hug, and the friend says no. My son has his want frustrated, right. So I need to normalize. Oh, what a, what a bummer to my four year old son. You want to hug your friend, he says no. The no wins. And you're allowed to be upset about that because actually him managing the upset is foundational to him honoring someone else's no. And I'm just thinking about, I'm curious how you see it. Like let's fast forward my son who's 4, 10 years, I don't know, he's now 14, right. And let's say he's, he wants to, I don't know, he wants to probably do something else besides giving a girl a hug. Maybe he wants to kiss her. What even do you encourage parents listening? What are the conversations like have with their kids around tolerating the frustration when you want something from someone and they don't want it with you?

I love that way of looking at it. And it really, I don't know, it takes the focus off of the no. You know, it puts it on like this is where I think the work needs to be done. Right. Like you just named it. It's getting people who are rejected to be able to manage their frustrations. You know, it's like I see something that I want and the object of my desire is telling me I can't have it. And so what. What I see a lot of times is that, you know, the kid who has a crush is like, well, no, but maybe I could convince you. Yes, you know, and, and they're not even thinking I'm frustrated and how do I deal with that frustration? They're just trying to get the yes by any means. Ne. And I think that that is so dangerous. Like it seems cute maybe when kids are 12, but that kind of behavior, that kind of learned behavior turns into the high schooler who isn't going to really listen to anybody and is just going to become more and more frustrated. Especially if rejection happens repeatedly with different people, then they're just going to keep trying harder and harder. And I don't see anybody, I'm sure there are people doing it, but I don't see like on the regular people socializing their kids on how to deal.

With rejection, you know, we're talking about that word frustration or embarrassment or disappointment, right? Because as long as you stay in that kind of harassing mode, you're almost saying to your body, okay, I'm going to avoid the disappointment. I can avoid the frustration. Like you're so focused on the goal that at the end of the day, at that point, my guess is actually no longer has anything to do with liking someone because they've established that they don't share that connection. It actually solely serves the purpose of avoiding frustration and disappointment and embarrassment. It's almost like a way to avoid having to regulate these feelings, kind of continuing on that goal.

Yes.

And the listeners here, who I think probably some definitely have teens and tweens, some have younger kids, like, there's so many ways we can work on the same skills our kids need to manage peer dynamics and be safe kind of allies and kind of peers to each other outside of their relationship with other kids. Right. So to look in your home, what is my kid's reaction? I don't know when I say no to anything.

Yeah, right.

And what. What is it like when we say, no screen time? What is it like to say, no sleepover tonight? And I don't think it's a kid's job by any means to say, oh, no sleepover, no problem, mom. You're an amazing mom. And that's not a thing. But when our kid says back to us, oh, come on, please, please, please. It's kind of our job as a parent to say back, look, my answer is no. And actually, one of my jobs is to help you tolerate hearing no from other people, because you're going to hear it a lot, and I need you to respect this. No kind of managing that around your kid not being able to have a sleepover is actually helping your kid tolerate the same feeling they're going to inevitably have at various points in their life with peer or romantic kind of engagements.

Yes. And the reason that so many parents buckle when their kids are whining and, you know, throwing fits about not getting a yes when they want it. The reason we buckle and, like, buy the toy that they want in the store is because we can't tolerate their being upset over the.

No, that's exactly right. I. I think this is true at every age. We have to tolerate feelings in our kids before our kids can tolerate those feelings in themselves. And so maybe this is like a mirror moment for me too. I hear myself talking. I'm like, oh, boy, okay, what am I gonna do differently today? My own house. But that's okay. That's important. It's just a mirror moment of, okay, what feelings do I know my kid has trouble tolerating? Is it frustration? Is it losing? Right. Because there's, like, a losing aspect to, like, harassment, too, if you look at it in that way. And whatever feeling my Kid has trouble tolerating. How can I almost tell myself a different narrative the next time my child feels that instead of, oh, here we are again. What an unenjoyable parenting moment. Maybe I tell myself this. This is where I show up as a parent. Like, how can I tolerate this situation in my child? Because that has to happen first. That is so powerful. Right? Because I think when we think about things like harassment in middle school, which I agree, Hillary, let's call a spade a spade. That's what it is. Right. It's not bothering. Right. It's really disrespecting someone else's being and their wishes and their wants, and it's a boundary violation. Right. That's. We're really talking about boundaries.

That's right.

We. Yeah, we just. We need to help our kids in our own home with us, you know, notice other people's boundaries and learn how to tolerate them as a starting point.

Yes. And I'll also say about harassment in school, it's not just about the two people involved, Right? Because when you're in a school environment, especially a middle school environment, where, like, bodies are just starting to change and behaviors are just starting to change, it is like a source of gossip when someone likes someone else and especially if they're going to make a big deal about it. And this is what happens in Here Lies Me. There's a kid who calls himself God and hijacks the morning announcements on the first day of school to tell the main character, Noah, that he's in love with her. And that sets off a whole chain reaction where, like, she becomes a pariah and her entire friend group drops her because it's too dangerous for them to be associated with her when this eccentric kid has a crush on her. And then this kid doesn't let up, you know, and Noah doesn't really know how to say no. And so, like, that's what happens in school is that it becomes completely blown up and people don't want to come near you. And it can have all kinds of other implications for kids.

And I always go to the family system here. Like, there's things we can avoid, you know, for our kids. We can't, you know, dictate what will and won't happen. But one thing is, I think about is what. What can parents do to create an environment in their home where even in the situation you just named. Right. What if that really did happen to a kid? Right. Or they really did lose their friends? Like, I think so many parents asked me, like, what can I do today? When my kids are younger, even when my kids are now teens and tweens so that they actually come talk to me. Because I hear from so many parents, I try to talk about consent, about harassment. My kid essentially puts their hand over their ears and is like, mom, dad, I can't talk about this with you.

Get in the car. So I wrote this book, Weird Parenting Wins, and it was crowdsourced parenting strategies. Because I found that a lot of the advice I was getting from books by quote, unquote experts was just really prescriptive. And it was like my way or the highway style advice. And I was not really able to pull off a lot of the advice I was getting. And like, I found that a lot of the strategies that worked for me were things that came in moments of desperation and through, like, trial and error. So I asked real parents to tell me what strategies were working for them. And one of the chapters is about how to get kids to open up to you. And one of the strategies that I kept hearing time and time again was, get in the car with your child, especially for older kids, and just like, be driving. And for some reason, I think it's because you're not looking each other in the eye that kids seem to open up more. When you're just driving somewhere and you're not, like, having a talk.

I think that is completely right on. I think I have the best conversations with my kids in the car. Or I often think, like, drawing and, you know, next to my daughter. And the way I describe it is I just like, happen to be pontificating about something next to her. Right. But then I just go right back to my drawing and maybe even I change the topic first. Like, I don't even know what I'm talking about anyway. Do you like my tree? You know, and sometimes a conversation is just saying something and knowing it sinks in, or pausing going back to my drawing and allowing my daughter to say one or two things and kind of taking that without. You're right. The pressure of a. We're sitting at the table staring at each other, and it, it's just too intense. It's honestly really intense for a lot of adults to have important conversations that way. Right. We often need something. I. I often think of it as like a third. It's like a third thing to just kind of bounce the tension off of. So, yeah, in the car, throwing a football, playing soccer, you know, doing art, that a little bit of distraction can really be a magnet in a good way for some of the tension to then allow. I Think some pathways to open. So I think that's an amazing tip. I totally agree with that.

I also think that, you know, this is kind of a child therapy kind of technique, but especially with younger kids, you can take out stuffed animals or toys and say, like, create a situation and say, like, what should the car do now? Or, like, your teddy bear. How would the teddy. How should the teddy bear manage these feelings? Yeah, and that can be really powerful. And I think the important thing in those kinds of situations is to not be prescriptive as an adult and say, like, no, it should be like this. Like, whatever the kid says goes.

Can I extend that? Because I think that that's right. I always, you know, I think about this idea a lot. I'm going to try to apply it to this conversation is we want to teach kids how to think, not what to think. Right? So I think when you use the word prescriptive, it's probably like a what to think, Right? We, like, teach them life lessons and, you know, this is like pure logic or cognition. But our kids, right, We. We want to actually build certain circuits in their body so that those circuits actually activate in situations. And that. That really speaks to the fact that kids have to generate actual, like, emotional experience in their body to create a circuit. They don't just do it by having a thought. So when we ask them questions and even teach them how to think about something, that does more for their learning than anything we say. So going back to that play example, like, here's something that comes to mind for me around building the circuitry, around saying no and consent and boundaries. So let's say there's. I don't know, I'm thinking about. You know, my kids have always been into vehicles. So there's a car parking in a spot, and I don't know why, I picture, like, another car coming and say, oh, can I share your spot? Like, there's room for both of us. And maybe the car. Sure you can. And okay. And then, you know, maybe I do that three times, and then the car comes again for the fourth. Oh, can I share the spot? I can imagine the other car in this passing. No, no, not today. And then I could imagine looking at my kids saying, this car really wants to share. And the car has said yes before. That's tricky. What.

Huh?

What should this car do? Right? And then pause. Yeah, right. And even if my kid takes a moment and says, I'm done, can I have pretzels now? Or, I don't know, mom, you're being weird, or you know, or something like that. I just know that that acting out. I know it sank in. Like, I know my child is now thinking about that more than they would if I sat them down and said, hey, when someone says no, they mean no. Okay, okay, good, good. Moving on. It just isn't how kids learn.

Yeah.

And so trusting that process, trusting that these topics are nuanced, and so showing the nuance really to that with your kid, I. I think that's really how we build those circuits that we hope activate when our kids are in middle school.

Yes. And now that I'm thinking about, there's another thing that we do that has just sort of started in the last couple of years since my daughter hit puberty. We have a secret code word. So again, this is like a gamifying of talking about serious things. We have a secret code word that, like, if she ever wants to talk about something, and often it's like at night after she's showered, she calls to me. She, like, calls out the secret code word. And I know that it's time for me to come and we're gonna talk. I don't know that that would work for every kid, but it has really worked for us.

One of the things I love that you said and I think is really in line with the way I work too, and I work with parents, is I'll say, look, we know certain principles or frameworks that tend to open up communication, but the exact how of what it looks like in your house with you and your kid, like, you're more expert on and you're going to figure out. So talking in the car, talking when you do art, having a code word, if that doesn't work in your house, it's not because you're, like, doing something wrong.

Right.

It's because it's just like, not the thing in your unique situation. And I think some of the principles. Right. It's the same principles as for me with, like, my husband. Right. If my husband approached me wanting to learn and just figure something out and try to understand me, I'd be much more open to talking to him about something than if I felt he was going to try to convince me out of something or judge something I said or kind of prove me wrong. I don't know anyone who said, I really like opening up to people who try to convince me to think otherwise or prove me wrong. Like, it just is never a thing.

Yeah.

And so to take that principle and to think with your own kid, okay, how can I show my child I want to have these open conversations. I'm not going to judge them, I'm not going to explain to them why they're wrong. I just want to learn more. That is actually the foundation for change. Because when someone's willing to talk to you and learn alongside you, things naturally shift for them because they make new connections or because they get curious. And so I just want all the parents here to. When you end this episode and think about talking to your kids, remember there's not one way. There are principles. So think about those big ideas and then apply them in a way that's creative and you think makes sense for, for your family.

Yeah. And like how, how could this be fun for my kid? How could this make us feel close? I think especially little kids like things to be turned into a game. But, but so do older kids too. And, and so just think about what is, what is that sweet spot for your kid that makes them feel happy and loved?

I love that one thing. I want to get to kind of the other side of some things here, which is, and you, you mentioned this, seeing this a lot with middle school girls, like saying no and being able, the way I think about it is being able to honor what I want for myself more than what you want from me. I'm curious how that plays out in middle school from everything you've researched.

Yeah, I mean, I think it's really tough because I think even so we've been talking about how pursuit can happen over time, you know, and not just, it's not just a one off kind of thing when it comes to harassment. So you know, I think for a lot of. And again I'm just going to be generalize and say girls. But I think for kids who are being pursued, it's really easy to like, maybe you say no the first time and then the person keeps pursuing you and you maybe get worn down. And I think it's harder as a young person. It's hard for adults, you know, to continue to put somebody off. You know, we get afraid of hurting somebody's feelings and also like, it's hard work to continue to say no. And sometimes it just feels easier to give in. I think especially if you've like lost all your friends because somebody has been pursuing you and you're like, well, at least there's somebody who likes me, so maybe I should just give in. So I think that that can be going on and I don't know, then there, there can be pressure from other kids around. You like, don't you, don't you just want A boyfriend? Why don't you just want a boyfriend?

What do you think's going on there? I mean, there's no right answer. I'm just curious. I mean, I have some thoughts. Like what, what's, what's that?

What's that about?

Don't you just want a boyfriend but somebody likes you?

I guess I'm just starting to see this where like my daughter comes home and is like, so and so is dating so and so, and then, but then it will be followed by what does that even mean at this age? What, what do they do? And that's a good question because I think most of the time it doesn't mean a lot at that age. And so I think part of it could be about just trying to, to sort out for themselves what does dating even mean? And maybe you should do it so that I can see you do it and then I can have a better understanding of it.

Yeah. To me, so many different things come to mind, but one of them is this just like gaze out that we kind of ask so many of our kids to do. I think definitely our girls, which is, you know, when we're going about our daily life, I think, you know, we often look in and out in being like, what's going on for me? What do I like, what do I want? And gazing out, what's going on for other people and what do they seem to want of me? And how can I make the situation out there easier, you know, have fewer waves by maybe contorting myself, you know, in some way. And I think we encourage a lot of our girls to do that, to kind of at least gaze out way before they gaze in. Right. And that idea of but this person likes me, it just, to me the visual is just like a gaze out as opposed to any gazing in. Like, do I like this person? How do I like them? What do I like about them? Am I looking for someone like this in my life? Right. And I think the culmination of that is in middle school is this focus on what other people think about you. Right. Oh, but doesn't that feel good? Well, that feels especially good for a middle schooler if they've oriented out as a way of essentially filling up their self worth.

You know, there's also another interesting thing that goes on in middle school with bodies changing and bodies changing at different rates. And I think there's an assumption from outside people that if you're body has developed that you're ready for more adult things and that's not just coming from other kids. That comes from adults, too. And, you know, sadly, in the survey that I did, there was a. There were a lot of people talking about teachers acting inappropriately with, you know, seventh and eighth graders just because their bodies look different. And so you have this school building full of kids who are at all different rates of change. And there can be ones who have not developed very much and feel like they want to date. And then there are ones who are, like, almost fully developed and absolutely don't feel ready. And then another thing is, I think that having your body and your hormones change so rapidly can feel like a death of sorts. It can feel like you're saying goodbye permanently to your childhood. And I think that that can be like, a really rude awakening for kids who do get harassed, particularly because their bodies have changed quickly.

Yeah. Oh, that brings up so many things for me, just hearing you say that, that some, you know, they're some kids, their bodies change, and that doesn't mean they're any more ready for anything again. It makes me think about experiences that might happen and the element of surprise at those things and being caught off guard. And it just makes me wonder for, you know, parents listening whose kids are going through puberty, whose kids bodies are changing, how important it is in the home to talk about as your body changes. That's still your body. And, you know, nobody has the right to make comments about your body, you know, that you don't invite or that don't feel good. And you're allowed to say, I don't like when you say that. And you're definitely more than allowed to come talk to me after something happens at school. And I'll believe you and I'll listen. Just kind of preparing our kids for some of the things that might come.

Yes. And also just to know that there's, like, there is no winning that game because kids get comments on their bodies because they're developed, and they get comments because they're underdeveloped. And then there's like, slut shaming and prude shaming. There's no, like, happy medium that anyone can be, but everyone, I think, is striving to be it.

So one of the things Hilary I like to do toward kind of the end of an episode is come up with a couple takeaways, you know, for parents listening. Right. I think one of the things I know about our listeners is there are people who love to think deeply and translate those deep thoughts into practical, kind of actionable strategies. And I'd love to come up with those with you. Yeah. If that's okay. So that sounds great. You know, people are listening. They might have younger kids. They very well could have, you know, kids right in the age range where some of these things are happening. You know, maybe I'll give you number one and number three for takeaways and I'll. I'll jump in with number two, so maybe you can start.

Okay. Okay. So I think, number one, make talking, make having hard conversations fun. Find a way to gamify your hard conversations.

I love that. Number two, when we think about middle school dynamics, some dynamics that I think can really scare a lot of parents, we get really worried. Things like harassment, boundaries, texting, to take a deep breath and literally zoom out and ask yourself, okay, what kind of skills are underlying those dynamics? Yes, I want to talk to my child about harassment, but is it about respecting boundaries and can I see that? Show up in other ways is about tolerating frustration. Is it about learning to say no and tolerating someone's disappointment with you because you are honoring your own needs and wants to at the time? Because I think when we zoom out in that way, we can break things down and make them more manageable and even see ways we can make headway with our kids in our home.

Yes. Okay. Number three, think about how you manage your own frustration when your kid is not behaving the way you would like them to. That's really setting a model for your kid on how to manage intense, difficult emotions.

I love that takeaway because I think this is a group of listeners too, who really understand that showing up in the way we want to for our kids really starts by kind of reflecting on how we show up ourselves. So that's an awesome takeaway. Can you tell people listening where to find more of you, where to find your podcast, things like that? Yeah.

So all of my work, my books and my podcasts you can find@hillaryfrank.com and you can find my podcasts Here Lies Me and Longest, Shortest Time wherever you get podcasts. And you can find me on Instagram hisishillaryfrank.

Awesome. Well, thank you for spending so much time here. Thank you for sharing so much of your work and your knowledge and your interests here and look forward to talking to you again soon.

Thanks so much for having me.

Thanks for listening to Good Inside. I love co creating episodes with you based on the real life tricky situations in your family. To share what's happening in your home, you can call 646-598-2543 or email a voice note to goodinsidepodcastmail.com There are so many more strategies and tips I want to share with you and so many Good Inside parents I want you to meet. I'm beyond excited that we now have a way to connect and learn together. Head to goodinside.com to learn more about Good Inside membership. I promise you it's totally game changing and follow me on Instagram and Facebook drbecky@ Good inside for a daily dose of parenting and self care ideas. Good inside with Dr. Becky is produced by Beth Rowe and Marie Cecile Anderson, an executive produced by Erica Belsky and me, Dr. Becky. If you enjoyed this episode, please take a moment to rate and review it or share this episode with a friend or family member as a way to start an important conversation. Let's end by placing our hands on our hearts and reminding ourselves. Even as I struggle and even as I have a hard time on the outside, I remain Good Inside.