Revisit - Wait, What? You Used to Love This.

I'm Dr. Becky, and this is good. Inside.

She was in the other room, and I was like, okay, maybe I'll just try and make this look really cool. And so I just got in the bath without saying anything. Got a bunch of toys in there with me, some bubbles, and was just splashing and loudly.

We were in the other room reading books.

I'm not generally a person who squeals, but I was squealing with delight just to make it as tempting as possible. And she was interested. She then walked in and played with the bubbles from outside the tub. And I was trying not to push it. And she was doing that for maybe 10 minutes and having a great time and thought the whole thing was very funny. And then I was like, you know, you could hop in. And she was like, absolutely not that moment.

We all know it when your kid's been delighted to do a thing. And then suddenly and rather dramatically, they aren't. Let's get into it right after the break.

If this line should go down and we only get one thing answered, I think we want the emergency question.

Okay, let's do it.

Our daughter is 2 years and 7 months old, and for 2 years and 6 months and 2 weeks of her life, she's absolutely loved taking a bath. Like, looks forward to it. It's like. It is a treat that stopped one day. Two weeks ago. No, ten days ago. Emily.

Something like that. Yeah.

Screaming, crying, will not get in the bath. And this coincided with her generally discovering how to tantrum. But it seems very specific. And the other tantrums seem random, and.

The other tantrums seem like something that we can. They're almost more minor, I would say. And we know how to handle them. I will say we've also tried quite a few things at this point. We've tried offering a bath at different times of day, so changing the schedule. We have tried getting in the bath with her, and then we've also tried a shower. Now she will only take a bird bath.

What's a bird bath?

A bird bath is a washcloth with water getting her wet, trying to use a little bit of soap. One day I tried a bird bath where I put her in the tub standing up and then poured water on her. And she was unhappy about that.

So if you ask her, why don't you. What's going on? Why don't you like the bath? What does she say?

That we try that. Because she's a very good talker, and we've tried that, and we can't get an answer out of her, she just kind of gets upset and says, I don't like it or I don't want to.

Okay, so here's where I would start. I would start by saying this to her today. You know what? There's something about the bath you really don't like. I believe you. Like, that's literally your homework today. Just to say that I don't have some brilliant interpretation, like, here's what I think this represents to her. And with my own kids, I often don't have that either. But leading with validation and believing even when you don't understand is an insanely powerful intervention. It's often like, for some kids, it's like the only thing they need to have a little bit of a movement because you're saying, like, I believe this thing is real, even if I don't even understand it. Where it's usually easier for us to validate something if we do understand it. Right? So I would just say that there's something about the bathroom you really don't like. Right now, we believe you. And I would actually let that sit, and I would have that be the whole thing and just see what she says. I don't expect some. She's not gonna, like, offer some brilliance, but, like, I promise you, it matters. And just like, allowing that be the whole thing makes it more impactful without saying, like, okay, so here's what we're gonna do. So just let that be the thing. Other things after that, I would just evaluate internally for the two of you, like, how often at this stage do we need to do a bathroom? The bird bath that you're saying, like, I refer to that as an important parts shower or something like that.

Right?

Like, sometimes you only need the important parts to be washed. We all know what those parts are, right? And it's okay to do that. Like, kids don't have to bathe every day. Like, nothing horrible happens. And so I would also just kind of consult between the two of you of, like, how often do we need to make this happen? And you can even deliver to that. That kind of idea to her by saying, again, after this other intervention, you know what? I know there's gonna be a time that bath is easier. I know now bath is really hard. And there will be a time that it's easier. And while it's hard, we don't have to do baths every day. We're not gonna bring it up, and we can't do baths never. But there's a lot in between every day and never. And so let's almost Come up with that together. Let's come up with a schedule together. What do we think? And I'd let her participate. I doubt she's gonna say to you, I don't know. How about every third day? You know, I don't know if she has the math for that, but I can say, okay, today is Friday. You know, there's a couple reasons why we definitely need to take a bath. If we get really muddy and really dirty, we definitely have to wash that off. And also every. And then pick a number that feels right to you every so many days. Even if that doesn't happen, we need it. So let's look at our calendar. And I'd even give her a little bit of visual kind of symbols around this. So today this doesn't have to happen. Oh, tomorrow we are going to the playground. We always like to play in the sandbox. You'll probably end up falling in the mud. Okay, so that might be a day. And then as that day gets closer, I would just prepare with her. Ooh, this is gonna. I just own it from the start. This is gonna be hard, right? Like, this bath today. Oh, nobody's gonna have fun. Let's think together. What's the easiest, you know, way we could do this? And even then, it might be a standup kind of scrub down that you could call it. Like, it's a scrub down. It's not even a bath. You know, you can almost, like, differentiate it. And I. I think, like, a key, almost formula when our kids are in some really tricky stage is validate exactly what's happening for them in the moment and the intensity they feel it and hold hope for a shift. And often we do one and not the other. We're like, come on, get over this. You're fine. Or we almost, like, join in their anxiety versus holding those both at once would sound like, look, I know there's. Bath feels really tricky. There's something about it that feels really, really bad. I believe you. I know that's real, and I know there's gonna be. It doesn't feel like this. And so we're doing these scrub downs, and there's gonna be a day. I know that you say to me, like, let's do that bath again. I'm ready for the bubbles. Like, I just know that day is gonna happen. It's not today, and I know it's gonna happen. And so it really respects where a kid is today, and it feels really good. Even as an adult, when you're struggling for someone else to see your struggle and to hold hope for something different. That's often enough to help a kid have some movement. It also gives a kid back control. It gives them back control. Bath time can be a place that kids really kind of struggle and resist. Because often bath time is associated with going to bed. Often bath time is something that parents want kids to do that they don't wanna do themselves. Right? And so especially at this like 2 year old age, it becomes almost symbolic of, I'm my own person. No one can make me do things that I don't wanna do. This is one thing I kind of have control over. I can'. Control, you know, the school I go to. I can't control how many hours daddy works. But like, I can say no to bath. And then what ends up happening in those situations is we often get more controlling. And then, you know, it only builds a child's reasons to resist. It actually no longer has anything to do with the bath. It has to do with defining their independent identity. Right? And we can't fight or win that battle. And so having this other way of approaching it, validating it, kind of like letting it go on your side. Like people say, like, just on our side, we're gonna drop the rope. Like, there's less tension if you drop the rope and both people aren't pulling. It also gives a kid back control. And so any element of the resistance that's actually just about control, once it's no longer about that, removing that factor often allows for movement as well. Because potty is another area where kids feel like, this is one of the only things I can control in my life, is what goes out of my body and, and when and where that happens. Right? And in potty, I call it learning. Because one of the reasons I don't like to call it potty training is, training really is kind of a method of control. As a trainer, I'm controlling the process. And I think that very setup is just a recipe for disaster and resistance. And so here we are connecting those two topics. So I would say on the bath thing, that's where I would start. And even internally, to yourselves, there's a lot of power as parents, at the end of the night, when our kids are sleeping in, kind of resisting, they're like, oh, I can't believe it's been two weeks of this. Like, is it always gonna be like this? I feel like there's power in a system. When the leaders do hold hope, like, okay, this is still happening. And you know what? Like, it's gonna change. It's not that big of a deal. We're gonna figure that out. I feel like that really filters down, and kids end up really feeling that.

Yeah, that sounds good. That feels good.

And, you know, we've definitely seen her go through phases before and then just kind of come out of them naturally. She did go through a phase where she just didn't want to use a towel after a bath for a while, which I, like, kind of loved that phase. She was just like, nope. And then one day, she was like, okay, towels back.

And that's something you can emphasize to her. Like, there's something to saying to a kid, like, wow, there's something about a bath that really doesn't feel good to you. I believe you. And you know what? You know that, like, whenever we bring up the word bath, you're like, no, no, no. You really know what's going on in your body. I really respect that about you. And look, we're your parents. Our job is to keep you safe. And there's some amount of basic cleanliness we're just gonna have to do with you. But we can really change kind of at what level that's at to respect the fact that this doesn't feel good to you right now. Cause the main message a kid gets is, yeah, I do know my body. And that leaves them more flexibility when we relinquish control to at some point say, you know what? Like, a bubble bath is fun. Like, I actually do want to do that again. So I think that's really helpful in the long run, that messaging.

And I do think that this, you know, it does feel related to our approach and our philosophy around potty training or potty learning or whatever you want to call it. Because my understanding was, I think, like, even before I had kids, was that it was like a kind of thing where you're like, okay, we're doing this, and we're doing this right now. But then, I don't know, from her school and just feeling it out, it has felt a little bit more like, let her lead with this. Because the more you make a thing of it, the more it becomes a thing. And so really, like, let her kind of run with this. I mean, I think that this is something that Ian and I kind of talk about just while we're parenting. Like, when do you really force or push something? And then when do you just kind of, like, follow her lead and give her the autonomy? And so this, with potty training, it feels like it's a little bit more. She's definitely sending signals to us and we're listening to those signals, but we're not pressuring her at all at this point.

So, yeah, tell me a little bit more about that journey where you're at.

I'd say several months ago she just started talking about potty and wanting to try the potty. And so we got her a little kid potty and she would want to sit on it and read and just kind of hang out and talk about it. And so I think at that time we got her a couple potty training books, potty learning books, which, like, I liked reading some of them. One of them was really gross and remains gross. But then she just kind of, she lost interest and so we didn't push it because it didn't seem urgent. And then recently in the last couple months, she's gotten very interested and wants to sit on the potty probably every day and sit and read books and talk about it. And she wants to flush the actual toilet in our house. And she tells us about other kids at her daycare who use the potty and she talks about what underwear she wants. There's a lot of conversation about it.

In our house, but not a whole lot of action.

There's a lot of sitting. There's a lot of sitting and reading about it. A lot of trying. Yeah, a lot of high fiving for trying, but occasionally a success, which I think is probably. It's just from the sheer probability of sitting on the toilet that long once in a while. It's going to work out. Oh, man. Two days ago she was sitting on the potty and she did poop. Emily looked at it and said, you did it, you did it. Hooray. And we high fived and the first thing she said was underwear because she's so excited about getting underwear.

And so tell me about that. Is she, is she in underwear?

So she is wearing diapers right now. And I think that a lot of what she is seeing and a lot of her desires are coming from being in school because at school they offer her the opportunity to use the potty. There are definitely kids on her floor that are using the potty. And so she's interested and she's seeing kids wearing underwear and she kind of wants to participate. Right now she's using diapers. And what has also changed in the past, I would say month, is that we used to always lie her down to change her diaper and now she wants to stand up, she wants to take off her diaper standing up, she wants to put on her diaper standing up. And we have not used pull ups because we've heard that that can actually get in the way of potty training. Pull ups at this point would perhaps be a little bit more convenient or easier because we're sort of putting her into a diaper. Standing up is, you know, a little awkward. And also cleaning her up, especially if she poops, is.

Yes.

Not that it never feels like it's as thorough as I'd like it to be. So, you know, a question we also had was, where is this coming from in terms of wanting to stand up and connected to potty training?

So let's start with why kids want to stand up. So this is a great thing that she wants to stand up. And it's actually something I encourage parents to do with their kids when they're younger to even start to suggest this as, you know, a kid kind of moves into that potty stage. Standing up, to me is a communication from a kid that they're kind of saying, like, I'm not such a baby anymore in this way.

Right.

Like, laying on your back and being changed is just an act of total dependence. And we want our kids to, of course, maintain parts of them that can get help from other people. Right. That know it's okay to stay attached. Of course. And when they're moving into the potty stage, we want them to feel like they are capable of kind of embodying their. Their older, you know, more independent self. And so being changed, standing up is really a way that your daughter is saying to you, I'm ready to move past this diaper phase. So even when she says, I want to be, you know, I want to be standing up, I would just reinforce that, say, wow, you're feeling, like, really tall right now. Like, you're showing me you're ready to be a little bit more independent about all this. That's really awesome. Like, I would just celebrate that. So in terms of this question you were asking, kind of of, oh, I. I want it to feel like it's my child's interest that's motivating this. And we don't have to. We're not forcing her saying, now is the day. I think there's something in between that that's important in the potty process, and it actually relates to what we were talking about earlier, which is this idea of, I see where my kid's at, and I hold hope for where they can be. Right. Because we do have a role as a parent that enables our kids to feel increasingly capable. If a kid at a certain age said to Us. I really want to be at a soccer team. Like, we would still have to be the ones to like, go look for the soccer team and find it and figure out if we can get them there. Right. And if we didn't do that, our kids desire to be on a soccer team, it couldn't be realized. It would just kind of live as a desire. And actually when a kid says to us, I wanna be at a soccer team, and then they watch us a little bit go into action. Oh, okay, let me look into that. Here's this option they feel from us. Wow, my parent really thinks I'm capable of being on a soccer team. And if we don't, there's a message not only of frustration, but of a kid feeling like, oh, like maybe my parents don't think I can do this. And so I think there's this balance with potty that when we do see our kid giving us signs from them that they're ready, I really actually think as parents, we do need to take a step because if we don't, we give our kid a kind of a communication that we think they, they should stay in diapers. That's very different than forcing, right? It doesn't mean, hey, we're doing this three day process starting now. Not that, but if a kid is talking about potty and they want undies and they're talking about daycare, I do think we need to say to them, hey, you're showing me that you're really excited about being in undies or you're excited to start peeing and pooping on the potty. How cool. You know what we're gonna do this weekend? We're gonna have three days where we say bye to the diapers and we say hello to the potty. And I'm gonna help you through that. This is such an awesome thing you want to do. So in my mind, we're like the boundaries and we're putting up these boundaries and making these decisions, but based on what our child is giving us. But if we don't do that, kids often take that as a communication that we don't think they can do that. And then they do become more conflicted. Tell me if that resonates that difference between like, forcing versus providing the structure to make change possible.

Oh, yeah, that. I mean, that completely makes sense to me. And I certainly, I don't want to feel like we're holding her back in any way. And I think we've been very enthusiastic about using the potty. But like, for example, we've Said to her, you know, great, when you start using the potty, we will get you underwear. But I, I'm wondering if what you're actually saying is, hey, maybe we get the underwear now and we start trying it on or using it and talking about the potty in that way. And maybe it. Cause I, I was seeing it as a more of a, like, I don't know, success.

And that is something I would encourage us to rethink.

Right.

I think that seeing our kids as capable of doing something is often a precursor for them fully believing they're capable of doing that thing. So I think the message of when you do this, we'll get to that next step. It little bit reverses it. I think she's telling you, hey, mom and dad, don't you see what I'm doing? Like, make this possible for me. Show me your hope. Show me the structure, show me the steps. I am giving you everything I have as a 2 year old. Give me that little bit more so I can actually make this shift. And I think so many times it's interesting with parents, we're either, you know, we lead with potty with a lot of control, which is not what you're doing, or sometimes we lead with almost too much backing off. And I think that middle ground is she's saying, I'm here, help me get to the next step. And so I would just pave that way. I think there are a lot of step by step things, because when the moment comes, like, oh, what about this moment? What do I do now? What about when there's an accident? What about when they say, no potty? Like, truly, the potty workshop that I have that comes with a handbook is gonna give you every single thing that is a process that actually not only leads to potty success, but I think is really in line with your parenting philosophy. Because how we approach the potty and how we go about the potty process can set the stage for Bodi autonomy, for confidence, for boundaries. Like, I always think how awesome to have a potty approach that, like, buys us wins in the future. Right? Like, just efficient. That's how I think about it. And it will just give you that kind of relief of, okay, like, all of my questions and the step by step kind of moves are right here. So I will send you that, and I think that'll be kind of that how to. That'll get you to that next step. But before we do that, I wanna get to the book. I wanna hear the book. And you said it just stuck in my Head. This one book grosses me out. And another kind of aspect of the potty process I think, that kids pick up on is our relationship with pee, with poop, with gross, with mess. And actually kind of learning a little bit about that is actually really important. So, Ian, I'm gonna put you on the spot, and I wanna hear about this gross disg.

Well, let me first say I do everything I can to keep this discussed between Emily and I. We talk about it after hours. I think, as far as our daughter knows, I love this book, but I'm telling you, I hate this book. I hate when she makes me read it.

Tell me, like, is there a page? Is there a moment? What comes up for you about it?

I don't want to disparage any authors on your show, but we'll just say, should I read it? Would you, like, read.

Yeah, read the page.

Piss, piss, piss. And a little bitty push. Out comes my pee with a teeny, tiny whoosh. So far, so good. Then it goes, says, mama, do we have to poop too? I grunt, and then I poo. There's something about I grunt. Which is what? That's a terrible sentence.

Is it the sentence structure? Is it the noise? Is it the grammar? Is it the order of operations? I want to know.

The word grunt is a. That's a tough place to start from. But I think pairing grunt with mm, mm is.

Like, we have other potty books. Like, we have other potty books that are totally fine and that are. But there is. I totally. I'm on the same page with Ian about that one page. But. But otherwise, like, I think everything else in that book seems. I think it's okay, right, Ian?

And is this the one your daughter happens to love? Because that's always the case. It's like, read that one. She.

I mean, she demands. I'd say she demands all of them equally. Yeah, yeah. And in. In sequence. But there was a day when this was requested four times in a row.

There's something that also, as a parent, you really. You're reading for your child. But also. And I think this is coming from both the work that Ian and I do, which has a lot to do with words. And so when you encounter something where the words just, like, feel abrasive, that's an example where the words just, like, they don't work together or something. I have the same feeling about that book. But I'm all the other potty books and talking about, do you have to poop? Do you have to pee? That's fine. Which, by the way, I also wanted to say. We also had to have a discussion about what we wanted to call poop and pee, because I grew up and it was called a sissy and a doody.

What about in your house, Ian?

I think just pee and poop. Uh, yeah, the word duty kind of grosses me out.

Yeah, it was. It was a sissy and a duty. And I remember, actually, I have a memory of being in pre K or kindergarten or something and telling the teacher I have to make a sissy, and someone teasing me because they were like, what's a sissy? So, yeah, pee and poop are pee and poop. Pee and poop and toot.

Yeah. And I think the reason these words and looking at our own just reaction, whether it's to the words or to certain books, why. Why it actually matters, is because especially with poop, like, our kids pick up on just how we relate to mess, just a period. Right. Like, and poop is. There's just mess. There's mess involved. Right. It's similar to how our kids pick up on what happens when our parents walk into a room that has toys all over it, how bookshelves need to look. And actually how kids end up relating to the pooping process is a little bit related to how they answer the question, like, is it okay to have mess? Is it okay to have messy things in me? Is this allowed? Is this kind of, you know, part of what exists in our family? And that actually sometimes has more to do with some kids kind of poop withholding or real poop resistance is sometimes a kid's way of saying, I'm not supposed to have things in me, you know, that are messy and imperfect and aren't clean. Right. So checking in as a parent of, like, yeah, what is my relationship with mess? Not just poop, but poop often stands for just, like, things that are.

Yeah.

That it's messy and it's smelly and. Right. It's not beautiful and linear and perfect. And our kids pick up on that separate from how we talk about poop itself. And I think especially as we go into the potty process as a parent, just kind of doing a little inventory of what our kid might have picked up on there and how we can actually get ahead of so many poop issues by, you know, thinking about mess in a less black and white way.

Yeah.

Is so opening and helpful for kids. Look, everything you're saying, it seems like she is so ready to just, like, put all these things together. And, yes, our kids get to an age where when they poop, they're like, oh, my goodness. Like, I can't. This is not the same as when they were six months. And so you two, I think, are ready and deserving of her to put these skills together and be more independent in this process. And I am gonna send you my workshop, which comes with the handbook, and I can't wait to hear how it goes. So keep me in the loop. And before you go, Ian, I have heard that you interview inanimate objects for a living.

I do, yes.

Yes. I don't know how many people I could say that to. Before we go, I am curious to know what might a potty sound like or what might a potty say in an interview?

Oh, man. I mean, I think that the interviews that I've done with inanimate objects, often I have an expectation of how they're going to feel about their lives. And it's, it's most rewarding for me when how they feel is surprising. Like, I interviewed a subway seat, which I would have thought would be a terrible existence, but the subway seat loved his life and loved nothing more than connecting with people through their butts. I don't know. I think a potty. I think a potty would certainly. It would be unable to recognize us by our faces. You know, that's not the part it is so often introduced to. So it would sort of know us by our tushes, as we say to our daughter. And maybe our faces would kind of wouldn't want to look at it. That would be unpleasant for us. So it would, it would always just want us to turn around and say, oh, there you are. Yeah, no, I know you. I know you.

Yeah, I love it. That seems pretty perfect. Today's episode is in partnership with Airbnb and Happy Egg. Thank you for listening. To share a story or ask me a question, go to goodinside.com podcast. Or you could write me@podcastoodinside.com parenting is the hardest and most important job in the world and you deserve resources and support so you feel empowered and confident for this very important job you hold. I'm so excited to share Good Inside membership. It's the first platform that brings together content and experts you trust with a global community of like valued parents. It's game changing and built for a busy parent who wants to make the most out of the few minutes they have. Good Inside with Dr. Becky is produced by Jesse Baker and Eric Newsem at Magnificent Noise. Our production staff includes Sabrina Farhee, Julia Knapp and Kristin Muller. I would also like to thank Erica Belsky, Mary Panico, Brooke Zant, and the rest of the good inside team. And one last thing before I let you go, let's end by placing our hands on our hearts and reminding ourselves, even as I struggle and even as I have a hard time on the outside, I remain good inside.