Right, But Should We Be Scheduling Sex? Esther Perel Answers All The Questions

We all want more knowledge and sharing from Esther Perel. And right now we're going to hear Esther answer your questions.

We'll be right back. I'd love to share some questions that come directly from the community. Here's one that came up so often. Is it completely awful to schedule sex the first few years after having children?

Not at all. Not at all. But you see, the word schedule in the American mind often involves, you know, a very task oriented calendar. But you can also look at it in a much more beautiful, poetic way that there's a ritual around it. So the question is, what happens once you meet? Is there a ritual? You know, is there a coming together? Is there an anticipation? I mean, part of what you want is. That makes it erotic is the fact that you look forward to something. Forward to spending time together, forward to connect, forward to experience pleasure, forward to be taken care of, whatever it is. But the anticipation is the mortar in our erotic imagination. So schedule away and then ask yourself, what do I do with the fact that I can rely on this time? I know it's set its hours, it's Saturday morning, it's Sunday evening, whatever. And then make it special because that's what changes it from something that is routine to something that is ritualized. A ritual is a routine that is infused with intentionality and creativity.

And my visual as you're talking is like the schedule.

Right.

Because I hear this a lot from parents too. It's like, oh, when, when my two kids are both napping and there's like a 45 minute overlap. It has to be then, or whatever it is. I don't know why I picture that as like you're saying there's a container. Like that's what you're.

I think that's a wonderful thing.

But then within the container, there could be a lot of.

You have to clean up the porch.

Yeah.

You actually say, we have 45 minutes, let's go play. Yeah, why not? Love it. You know, when you have little ones, structure creates freedom. Before you have the structure of the kids, the freedom is the lack of structure. One of the most important things to redefine is that with kids, freedom comes from structure, not from the absence of it.

Okay, another question that came up a lot. Being in caretaking mode feels like it's a threat to being romantic. Being in caretaking mode of your kids.

Yes. So I think that is a very, very interesting piece. I just did a little clip in Australia that went completely viral over exactly this thing. So this is what I'm going to Say, and I'm going to say it better than I did in the first time. Very often, if I work with a heterosexual couple, I will hear a caring male partner say, nothing turns me on more than to see her turned on. I love seeing her into it. Because if she's into it, he doesn't have to deal with the predatory fear. He knows she's enjoying it. I have yet to hear a straight woman say, nothing turns me on more than to see him turned on. If she's not into it. If she's not into it, whatever is happening to him will not change her. What turns her on is what happens to her. And for that, it means that she needs to be able to focus on herself, away from the worry and the responsibility and the caretaking of others. One of the most difficult things in the transition from mother to woman, from caregiver to erotic being, is the ability to switch the focus onto oneself. In a healthy narcissism. I really, with pleasure, use that word, away from the responsibility and the caregiving. It's her turn on. It's what's happening to her that will ignite her. And so then you ask, for some women, it's about taking off the apron that is filled with spit. And that's all I need in order to move, to retrieve the woman that is behind the mother. For another person, it's about leaving the house. For another person, it's about leaving. How much do I need to be away from that locus of caregiving that allows me to feel carefree, to attend to myself, to allow myself to experience pleasure without worrying that something is going to happen to the people over whom I am responsible?

So while someone's in their house with their partner and they struggle to make this shift, they're like, yeah, I need that trip out of the city, or I need this.

But it's not yet. What can they do? Well, I say, first of all, I completely get it. And I explained to them, you really need to understand it. This is almost evolutionary. This is not your wife or your partner. This is, you know, revolution did the job very well. It made women completely feeling that sense of responsibility, which is part of why in history, she's been divided. The mother was here and the other woman was there. It's the integration of these two people inside the same household is a challenge. And Victoria's Secret doesn't solve this. So the first thing is, what helps you transition? Miss, Is it a shower? Is it a walk? Is it a bath? Is it some good music over your ears? Is it just being allowed 15 minutes to be alone in the room and have no obligation, no responsibility, nobody asking you anything, what helps you. That should be part of the ritual of scheduling, for example. So then you give the partner a role. It's not just that you have to talk her into it. The next thing is, it doesn't always start with desire. You can have a responsive desire, not an initiating desire. So it starts with willingness. I don't know. I could do without. I could just as well go to bed. But, you know, I'll see where it takes me. Let's see. And don't take this as she's not into it or she has less desire and there is a discrepancy. It just means that at this stage, willingness is one way for her to shift from mother to lover. Then if she says, I need to be out of the city, then make sure either you use your fantasy life and you create a trip. You know, I had a fantastic couple in the Pandemic, the story. They were supposed to travel exactly. To the other city. They had the whole thing, the plane, Everything got stopped. There was nowhere to go. And they created a beach inside their living room just for a night. You know, why only with children do we play? Why is it only the children who take books and turn them into rocks and think they're on a river?

But why?

You know, there's a lot of self consciousness, right? It feels awkward for a lot of adults with their partners, not with their.

Lovers, but with their partners. Yes, of course.

What can help?

What? Because there is this notion that once you have entered family life and domesticity, you have to become all serious.

Is it just a matter of saying, okay, I'm just gonna kind of, we're gonna do this. Is it just like jumping off the.

Diving board, just trying it and saying, oh, can you believe this? This is so awkward. But the first time. There is nothing more exciting than to be transgressive in your own home and to step out of the role and the box that this role puts you in rather than have to create a whole massive production. We have freedom in confinement, comes from our imagination. Our imagination can take us anywhere. And we do go to the movies, to the theater, to art for exactly that. Because it takes us outside of our reality. It goes outside the boundaries of what is permitted. The couples who have it do this naturally. It's not that they don't have dips. It's not that they don't have dry spells. It's just that they know how to resurrect because they know how to bring that erotic energy, as in playful, creative, mischievous, curious, inside their kitchen.

But you know what you just said, that I want to kind of just center for a moment is. I hear this a lot from parents who struggle to even take time for themselves away from their kids. How do I go out to dinner with my friends and miss bedtime without feeling guilty? And I often say, you're going to do it while you tolerate feeling guilty. And we're not going to do it without feeling guilty.

The guilt's going to come.

You're going to tolerate it as part of the experience. And one of the things you're saying about, you know, entering into fantasy or play with your partner is it's gonna feel awkward.

It's not.

Don't wait till the moment it doesn't feel awkward. You can even, oh, this feels awkward. This is so different than what we usually do. You're saying just it's part of the experience.

That's correct. The awkwardness is one character in the play, and you talk to the awkwardness, and you bring it in and you say, how awkward are you feeling today? You know, for me, it's a nine. But the thing about the guilt, about going for dinner, I mean, that is systemic. This is not. Your grandparents did not feel guilty when they went for dinner, neither when they went away for two weeks, for that matter. And for some of us, it's our parents. This is very generational. This is part of the domination on the parent. I really think that it needs to be called out as such and not to be told. Well, if you don't want to give everything to your kids, then don't have them. Right? Because that's the answer that you then get. Go out. And here is why. Because if you don't and you deprive yourself, you begin to ask your children to become your emotional caregivers. You want your children to validate your sacrifice. You want your children to make sure that you're not too alone and too disconnected. And when you recruit your children into that caretaking role, you're creating a legacy of emotional burden that is not going to be too good for them.

Well, I know this is gonna land well on our listeners. Cause I feel like the, you know, people might hear about me or good inside about kind of certain parenting strategies. But really, you know, what we're about is redefining motherhood is not martyrdom. It's not good for anyone. Nobody benefits from a selfless parent. Not the kid, not the parent, nobody.

But you're not Even selfless. That's the interesting thing, is that you surreptitiously pass the burden onto your kids.

Yes.

You want your kids to validate what you gave up for them, and then you resent them when they challenge you or when they don't want to spend more time with you, or when they're not thinking that you're the best thing that ever happened to them. You put an emotional burden on your children for something that other people need to provide. We live in community. We can't ask our kids to be the validators of our parenthood. You sit with your friends and you discuss that, and you get a sense of normality.

Okay, last question. Cause I know we're have to wrap up. I know there's a lot of people listening who are probably thinking there's steps I would need to take, you know, before. You know, before sex, before more intimacy. Me and my partner feel so far apart. That erotic energy feels so.

So far away.

Are there things that people might not even think about? Are legitimate steps that are kind of concrete, doable?

Yes, there are many things. Many things. And I write about it. I mean, you know, I created the whole card game. Where should we begin? A game of stories, because it creates a different conversation between partners. And I've seen people do one card a day and just say, you know what? We've gotten stale. So the first thing you do is you kind of acknowledge. You go to your partner, you write a letter. When you sit on a plane one day or when you're stuck in an airport, and you just say, I was thinking of us. And I realized it's been two months, two years, 10 years, whatever. We have really grown apart. And I just noticed it. And I was shocked. I was sad. How did this happen? And I know, I'm sure I have done a lot of things to contribute to that. You don't start blaming. You just own your part. Own your part and the other person can own theirs. I miss you. I miss us. I miss the person I thought I was going to be. How did I get there? What happened? And I'm suddenly not even sure that we can come back from there, but I would like to try. I'm not sure you want to come back from there, but I hope you still do. All I want to tell you, and this is the vulnerable part, I want to do better. Will you join? And then you get the chills because this is caring for your relationship. And then you say, when they come home, that doesn't mean you wait for them in the Lingerie. This is not. You just really say, can we sit? And you know, what was it like for you to read this letter? Or you don't process the letter and you just say, and you just make a beautiful table and you say, I just thought we needed more than just standing at the counter. And I wanted us to sit again and to have nice music and to cook something for you or to order something in. I wanted to make you feel that you matter, that you're special, that it's important to me and that I will do whatever it takes for that. And this is the challenging thing, is that you're going to do it without knowing for fact that the other person is right there because they may have tried for a while and you were missing in action or because who knows? But you do it because it matters to you. It's enlightened self interest. That's what will help you with the vulnerability on the matter. It's a term for Terry Real that I love to use. And then you just say, you know, when we sit at the couch, you suddenly take their hand and you say, wow, it's been a while since we held hands like this. And then you take their shoulder and you massage it, or you put your hand in their hair and you just say, whoa, you know, it feels nice. You don't say, why don't we ever do this? You don't say, it's been so long. You know, how long do I have to wait? Or when they finally kiss you back, you say, what took you so long? You say, that feels nice. It feels a little awkward. We've become so stiff a little bit. And we try to just deal by getting pecs from the kids and from the dogs. You know, we've replaced ourselves and you own that in an adult language. And then slowly you get closer to them. And then when you are in the shower, you may say, join me. Or maybe they just sit in the tub and you go and you rub their back. Or you, you know, you do gestures. They're not lead ons, they're gestures that are meant to be. Just that it feels nice to touch. You know, we can live without sex, but we don't live well without touch. Yeah, that's the slow steps of that. You know, you look nice. You know, would you wear that shirt that I like so much? And you make the person feel that they are a sensual, sexual, living, breeding human being next to you.

That's the process that is so, so profound and so important. And, and you make it. You make it so Concrete and. Thank you. And I hope this is one of many times we speak. This is just the beginning.

What would be the next question you would have taken?

Oh, what's the next question we would have taken? Should marriage change after kids?

It does. It doesn't should. It definitely does. So does your experience with your body, so does your sexuality. So does the resources that are available to the. Those are facts. Yeah. But then there is what you do with the facts.

Yep.

What of what I said struck you most?

I love when you were talking about having. Having to really show someone that they matter, that recognizing someone matters has to be matched with like actually doing things about it, like manifesting. And we do that. We do that with our kids, like all the time.

So there's a perfect little example that I took from Judy Gottman on that where she says, it's one thing to say to someone, thank you for making me the tea. It's another thing to say, that was very thoughtful of you. If you want to go back from a task oriented to a meaning oriented relationship, that's an example of the shift.

Yeah.

One is about the T and one is about the person.

Yeah. And the process and their intention. You're seeing it and you're connecting.

Quality of your relationship determines the quality of your life ultimately, for sure.

I think that's on your website. You know, the other thing you've said in the past that I think about a lot and I've used in a lot of my sessions with people is your question of how do you turn yourself off and on and on.

But I will explain that question. Right. For me, it's a very important one. So it comes from that very thing where I said, it's not what happens to the other person, it's what happens to her. In this case, it's a her. Right. And I ask, how do you turn. No, what turns me off is. Or I turn myself off by is very different from what turns me off. Meaning you turn me off.

When.

Yes.

What do I do that turns me off? It's when I worry about the kids. It's when I'm anxious about money. It's when I didn't take time for myself. It's when I feel bloated and I've overeaten. It's when we have a fight that I turn myself off. When. And I turn myself on. I awaken myself when I'm in nature, when I listen to music, when I go out with friends. That answer is, what will help you the most with your question about how do I not feel guilty when I go out with my girlfriends.

You know, I think that's a new thought for a lot of people of, you know, turning myself on or off. That's not something someone else controls.

No, because desire is to own the wanting.

Yes.

You can't make people desire. You can make people do things, but you can't make them want it. So the wanting is entirely yours, and the wanting is not sexual. It's about feeling alive. If you don't feel alive, you can have sex. Women have done sex for centuries and felt nothing. That's not the point. The point is to experience a sense of vitality in the relationship. That's what people want. And you want it with your kids and you want it with your partner. So you have to take some of the energy away from the kids and into the relationship because it will actually give more to the kids when you do more for the couple. That's the triangle I want people to stay with.

Hallelujah. For real. Thank you.

My pleasure.

So I have an idea you might be thinking, oh, so much of this.

Episode resonates, but it's such a hurdle.

To get over to talk about these things with my partner. Well, one of the things I know from working with couples is talking about tricky topics is much easier when you have a third. What do I mean, a third? Instead of talking directly about a topic to a partner, the two of you talk about an episode you both listened to or an article you both saw or a book you both read. So right now, consider sharing this topic episode with your partner as a way to bridge the gap. Maybe add a note like, hey, there were a lot of really interesting points that made me think about things differently. Thought you might be interested in this too. Or take it a step further and write, I miss you. I'd love to reconnect. Maybe we can both listen to this and talk about it together. Thanks for listening. To share a story or ask me a question, go to goodinside.com podcast. You could also write me@podcastoodinside.com parenting is the hardest and most important job in the world and parents deserve resources and support so they feel empowered, confident, and connected. I'm so excited to share Good Inside membership, the first platform that brings together content and experts you trust with a global community of like valued parents. It's totally game changing. Good inside with Dr. Becky is produced by Jesse Baker and Eric Newsom at MagnificentNoise. Our production staff includes Sabrina Farhey, Julia Natt, and Kristin Muller. I would also like to thank Erica Belsky, Mary Panico, Ashley Valenzuela and the rest of the good inside team. And one last thing before I let you go, let's end by placing our hands on our hearts and reminding ourselves, even as I struggle and even as I have a hard time on the outside, I remain good inside.