The Antidote to Shame is Connection with Jessica Biel

Okay, I'm going to say a couple words, and I want you to think about how they relate to each other. Self trust, body confidence, periods, food. Now, if you're like most people, you're racking your brain and thinking, I'm not sure how these relate or if this is relevant in my life right now, but I promise you, whether you have a daughter, whether you have a son, whether you're a mom or a dad or a grandma or a grandpa, whether you're listening for yourself, this conversation is for you. Because I am going to tie it all together in a really compelling, personal, funny discussion with actor and producer Jessica Biel. Jessica is the author of a new book called A Kid's Book about Periods. But really, she's the author of a book looking to empower people, looking to give people accurate information, looking to change the narrative about how we think about our bodies. I promise you, you're going to laugh a lot during this conversation. You're going to learn a lot more about me, and you're going to have actionable strategies to use in your home. I'm Dr. Becky, and this is good inside. We'll be back right after this. Maybe we could just start. This is, like, quite the get to know you. Like, what. What's your. Your period story? And I'm. I'm happy to share mine as well.

Yeah, for sure. I would love to share mine. Well, my first period was when I was 11, and it happened right before I went to school. I was in the bathroom, and then I saw blood in the toilet, and I freaked out. I mean, just really thought, oh, my God, this is the end. Like, I thought, I'm dying. I'm not going to make it. Like, okay, it's been a good few years. And I ran to get my mom, and I showed her, and she gave me a pad. I think it's, like, kind of abstract. Some of the memories are a bit abstract from that time. But I had. I had to get to school because I was in. I was in a school play, and I was playing one of the lead characters in the play. And I remember just feeling so scared. What am I going to do? Am I going to have to go through with this? Am I? What's going to happen to me? You know, it was just such a scary thing. And it's funny because when I ask my mom about it now, recently, she said, I told you, I completely prepped you. You knew this was going to happen at some point. And we talked about it. I don't remember that conversation. And I definitely. Even though we talked about it, I was still very scared.

Yeah.

But I did my play. It was successful. The school loved it and it was fine. And then my period didn't come back for like a year, so. It's such a mysterious thing. I mean, it's so weird. I think periods are like, just so. Can be so confusing, you know?

Yeah, well, you know what you're saying. One of the things I was thinking about recently was imagine if we told women nothing about pregnancy. I feel like there's some people who be like, we really still don't tell them that many things, which I think is true. But I just imagine one day, like, looking at my body like, what? Like, what is this? And all the different things. If we're unprepared for a change, we tend to have fear and attribute something negative to it. It's survival. We want to do that as humans because then we're prepared for threat. But we obviously don't want that in that we don't want to experience key moments in our body's kind of journey with threat when they're natural and beautiful and a sign of our health. And periods are something. Your story is similar to so many people that I've heard. My friends and I talk about this all the time. That's kind of the shock and awe of this moment and how that has kind of stuck with them. This is like such a pivotal thing that happens. And if your first response is a little bit of fear and even unconsciously, like, what's wrong with me? Or like, am I dying right now? That's our reaction to seeing blood coming out of our body. That sticks with us.

Yeah, totally. I actually love what you just said. Periods are a sign of our health.

Yeah.

I feel like that's something that is sort of lost in the sauce. So somewhere, when. When we talk about that, and I definitely remember hearing that just recently, one of my doctors said, how's your period? I said, it's, you know, pretty normal. It's kind of heavy. Day two, I'm sort of giving some details. And they said, well, that's the first great marker of that, you know, health is your health is going to be probably pretty stabilized. I thought, wow, I've never heard that before. And I do feel like periods sometimes have this. This kind of gross connotation or negative connotation or. I don't know. I remember people used to make these, like, really bad jokes about them when I was younger. And it just made you feel like, man, I must be a really icky person if this happens to me. So I just love that. I want that idea to keep getting circulated, that it's a. It's a sign of really good health. It's such a cool thing to be reminded of.

Yeah. And, you know, maybe that's so part of my narrative, because my period story, I got my period for the first time naturally after I had my first son. That's really when. Yeah.

Because I'm so interested in hearing about this.

Yeah. I didn't get my period as a kid. I kind of had this, like, muscular body. I did a decent amount of gymnastics. And, you know, they thought maybe that was related to it, but I didn't fully fit this, like, hypothalamic picture either. And it was just. I didn't get it. And then I went to college, and I feel like I was like, put on birth control. Just because, like, my generation feels like you go to college and you're put on birth control. It's just, like, the same here. Just. Yep. Did that. Got my clothes and got my birth control. And then I got married on the younger side, and, you know, I just stayed on birth control. And then when I wanted to have a baby, what I knew is I kind of knew I'd have a journey because I knew I never got my period. So I was like, this is not gonna be easy for me. And so after I got married, before we even wanted to have a kid, me and my husband were like, no, I'm gonna actually go off birth control and try to see if I can get my body kind of in a place where I could do this and did all types of things. And then I ended up doing ivf. I never even got my period. And then, interestingly enough, I got my period naturally after my first kid, and then I got it regularly starting after my third. After my third. I am so right.

Wow.

I know, right? And so I think for me, wow. I did feel acutely aware of, like, my body's not doing. Maybe I was saved. Some of those, like, potentially awkward. Could be full of shame, even though I know you and I want to undo that, you know, moments. But I actually was very acutely aware when I was younger that my body is not doing the thing that is a sign of health. And so when I got my period, I feel like I had this period party for myself. I was like, who gets their period for the first time, like, after they have their child? Like, that's going to confuse my daughter with, like, her understanding of these things. But, yeah, that would. That's my story. Story.

Wow, that's amazing. That's. I mean, I'm so interested to hear that because as I've been learning more and more and like being a part of organizations like period.org that these women who like, know so much more than I do, they were sharing, sharing that with me that not all people who are born with uteruses get their period. And I thought, wow, I didn't know that. Yeah. And then some people have these really interesting experiences where it comes so much later. And that's really interesting. I went through IVF as well with my second child and I had a natural pregnancy, my first. And then things changed in my body and I really struggled and then had IVF for my second baby and had my second baby. But I got my period at 11. It went away, came back, and now it's just more extreme than ever. I thought it would just get easier and get more mellow. No, no, no. I mean, that's what I mean when I say it's like mysterious kind of.

Right.

Because it's just even now I'm still trying to figure out when and why and what and all the things which I just feel like normalizing this conversation and knowing that everybody has a really unique story. Yeah.

And okay, I want to come to your writing this book, but I feel like this fact is in my head and I have to give a lot of credit to the founders of Evvy, Elaine and Priyanka. Who are these amaz. And you know, they're. They shared with me, you know, it's fact that women weren't even required to be in clinical trials until 1993. So the amount of research done on.

Unbelievable women and our.

It's the same issue with menopause. And you know, there's like no research on that. Probably in some ways, like our bodies quote a mystery. But we should kind of feel enraged by that. Like it shouldn't because, you know, it's like men can get a Viagra like a second on the market, but we don't even understand like menstruation or, you know, the things going on in our bodies. But I think some of it is people aren't talking about it. You can't study things you're not putting words to. You can't learn more about something you don't start a conversation about. And I feel like your book, which I want to hear about, is the start of a conversation at an age when these conversations should start. Right. So what was like the spark in your mind? Like, I just want to Know, like, are you driving? And you're like, are you like, in the bath? Are you like, grocery shopping? And you're like, I'm gonna write. I'm gonna write a book about periods. Like, what was the moment? I just want to get into the moment that happened.

Well, you're going to, you're going to laugh because I never once in my mind ever thought about writing anything. I never thought about writing a book. I was like, that's. I'm not an author, I'm not an expert, I am not a doctor, right? So why would I write anything in this space? It was never, it never occurred to me until I sat down with Jelani Memory, who owns and runs a kids company. And I love what he does. I love all the subjects they tackle in such a cool, straightforward, you know, way that you just, it's with so much respect, I think these books are published that children and kids can understand these big, these big topics and these, these important things. And I just love his ethos in his company. And so I was literally having a zoom with him with my company. We're talking about. They wanted to get into different types of, you know, creative formats outside of books. How do we move into television or film? We're just having literally a collaborative conversation because I'm such a fan. How can we work together? And then he just started asking, who am I and what do I care about really in my personal life? And I just said, well, I care about reproductive health and everyone's health and wellbeing, and that's a huge interest of mine, and more information around my own body and my friends bodies. And he said, well, what would you write about? And I said, well, I don't know, periods, probably because it's the first big milestone that a person with a female reproductive system is, you know, having to experience. And he said, well, great, let's do it. And I literally was like, wait, wait, what?

Okay.

You know, like it never occurred to me that it was something I could do or that I even should do because I think I felt. I think I felt some insecurity around the fact that I'm not a doctor and who's going to listen to me and why you should, probably shouldn't listen to me actually. Like, I don't really know that much either. And I'm trying to learn too. But I liked the, the way that we collaborated on this book was. I just was telling my story and trying, and that is my truth and that is something I do know about. I've had a period for many, many, many years. And it's changed and it's evolved, and I've had kids and I've had struggles, and I know that. And then we worked with an amazing organization, period.org and they helped us with all the language about how to really talk about it in an inclusive way. So hopefully, you know, it would help parents and people and young people to just at least open the door to these conversations. Have it as a tool in your tool belts or a resource in your toolkit to just, you know, the springboard to bigger conversations.

Yes. To me, everything I think about with kids, too, is, you know, information doesn't scare kids. Feeling alone and confused in the absence of information always scares kids. And if we think about that framework, we actually start to talk to our kids in a very different way than probably a lot of us were talked to. Because the moments that overwhelm us as kids are when something happens, we don't have a narrative for it, we don't have words for it. Then it just lives as a set of sensation in our bodies and kind of floating around with anxiety. But when we have a story to understand, which has to be given to us by an adult, or it's going to be given to us by a random kid on the bus, but that's not going to be an accurate story, right?

Yeah.

When we have a story from a loving, trusted adult, we can handle all types of hard information, like. Like death, you know, in the family, and we can handle just medical information and understanding our bodies, like, you know, understanding menstruation. So I am in complete agreement, I guess, if you think about parents who are listening right now thinking, oh, my goodness, I've. I don't even. I don't even know what to say. Or like, where would I start? Or am I giving my kids something that they don't actually want to hear? Like, I always hear this from parents. Like, what would you say to them? Like, how would you start to encourage a parent to talk to their kid about. About periods?

Well, I mean, I guess I can only come from my own experience. Right. And I think how it started, the conversation started with my kids, at least with my older kid, was he was trying to come in the bathroom while I was trying to go into the bathroom, and I needed to change my tampon, and I was like, needed to do it at that very second, and I pulled it out, and he goes, what is that? And I said, well, this is a. This is a tampon, and I need to use this every month. It's an Experience that, you know, I go through that I'd love to tell you more about. I just can't do it right now and I need you to leave the bathroom so I can have some privacy. And he goes, okay. And he left. And he saw it and I didn't really tell him anything because I just didn't have the time at that moment. But it started there with showing him the tampon, saying this is something that's happening to me that I need to take care of for my personal well being and health, but I'd like some privacy to do it right now.

Yeah.

And he gave me that privacy. And we, up until two days ago, we hadn't really talked about it again. And actually it happened with my three year old too. He was in the bathroom and I just changed my tampon while he was just in there. He wasn't staring at me. He was like, Tate had a car. He was like driving his car along the side of the wall. And I said, you know what, if you're going to be in my private space, I'm going to do what I need to do and I'm going to keep it moving. And he barely even.

I got places to go, kid.

I do. I really got some things to do and you got to get with it, so let's go. And I did it. And we didn't really, he didn't even really ask much or talk. He just kind of left and I left and like that was it. So I guess what I would say is just continue to do what you need to do for, you know, your health and wellness and well being and within a parameter that, you know, makes sense for, you know, you and your family. I don't know. Once again, I am not an expert. This is your department and other medical people's department. But this is just my experience as a mom and I think like little baby steps. If you're feeling nervous and feeling like, oh my gosh, I do not want to touch this with a 10 foot pole. I don't know, just have them laying out and have. Start having a conversation about what they are or you know, get used to, you know, having some dialogue around. I have to, I experience something different than you do every month and I can't wait to share that information with you. You know, I kind of like dribbled it like that. And then we talked about it two days ago, like we for real talked about it and it was amazing.

I actually, first of all, I think every parent, and I really mean this, like you aren't you are an expert. You're expert on yourself. You're the only expert that exists on your kid. And I think what it sounds like you did is you. You questioned some, like, societal narrative, like, get out. I'm doing something that you can't know about. We kind of have, like, all absorbed that. We, quote, should do that. And it sounds like you're like, this is actually the most natural thing. It's just, this is a part of my life, and I find the same way. I realized I had very similar experience. I actually have a great story around my period with my three kids, but keeping tampons away from them or that time of the month, my period away from them, actually, it was like, that became harder than just talking about it in the nature of the pretty open conversations. So I was in Maine. We're. Me and my husband were on this visiting family, and. And I took my three kids alone to the store in town. It was like a mile walk. And I think at the time, my youngest was probably, like, one or, like one and a half or somebody was, like, sleeping. And then I had, you know, my kids are three years apart, and I was, you know, at breakfast, and I just full. Feel my full period come on. And I can still remember I'm wearing white jean shorts. Like, oh, my God, white jean shorts. Have a tampon. Not of anything. And like, there's just, like, I don't know how to talk to your children, right? So they're all with me. I don't have any other adults. There's not a bathroom in this restaurant. It was like this little coffee place. I remember, like, finding the shoe store. That luckily was like, yes, we have a bathroom. And I go in and look, my kids are with me. Like, I have these young kids. Like, what else am I doing? And I kind of said something similar, like, I'm safe, I'm healthy. Because I think they're probably like, what is happening to you? Because they saw it, right? Like, right. I'm totally safe. I'm healthy. You know, I think my older kid knew about it. I'm having something called a period. We'll talk about it later. Right now, I. You know, luckily, I found someone, like, literally in the shoe store who's like, I have a tampon. Thank goodness, right? And I figured it out. And what's so funny is I still remember, like, the next, like, couple months, like, I'd be like, said to my older. I was like, one second, I forgot something in the house. I got to be right back. He's like, a Tampon. I was like, no, no. It's like my phone, you know? Like, he always was like, do you have a tampon? You might want to bring a tampon, you know? But I'm like, you know what I know about my son? He will never be embarrassed to buy tampons for a friend or a partner, you know, whatever, because this is just in the DNA of his relationship is like, talks about tampons and periods. And I think that is such a gift, I mean, to men, to women, to anyone, that this is not some, like, shameful, embarrassing thing. And so I do think what you said is such brilliant advice. The conversation can start with just, your kid probably will notice a tampon somewhere or you'll say something, right? And it's actually, sometimes it can start by just not hiding it. And I think. And I want to dive a little bit more into your book because I really do think this. Books, to me, are an amazing way for parents to bridge the gap between, like, what probably was done in their childhood, so therefore, what feels comfortable, and the parent they want to be. Because a book will just give you words. It's like cycle breaking just to say words that you're like, I actually don't know if I have this narrative inside my body naturally. So I'm trying to develop it. And this book is a tool I can use to kind of level that up.

Agreed, 100%. The world of books is such an incredible place to find a resource to, you know, to go away to a story, to a fairy tale story. So, like, I'm a storyteller. This is what I do. So books are like my life. And they have been my life since I was young. And now as a parent, I am constantly looking for that. I literally just found a book the other day because my kid will only eat, like, a grilled cheese, and it's making me crazy. I feel. This was one of the questions I wanted to ask you, actually. How do I get my kid to eat something other than cheese and bread? But I found this cool book about this dad who loves to eat everything and this kid who doesn't want to eat anything. And it was just. The book is called, like, just try it or something. And I bought it. I said, okay, great, I'm going to use this book because I don't have all the language. And when it comes to more medical things that are happening with your body, I don't know how to describe these things. I can't tell you medically, anatomically, what's happening to my son when he's going through something. Or even myself, like, I still can't technically map these things out. I think books are the best resource and they, I just, I agree with you. I could not lean on them enough.

And I have so many of the kids books about because I think they're just so straightforward. They're like, this is what it is. You're like, wow, that was. It's a lot of like very simple words. And you know, I also just want to give a tool to parents listening because I think whether you're talking about periods or, you know, I think, you know, kids are like, what is a 69? How does the baby really get in the belly? And you're like, oh my goodness. I have to approach these topics too. The reason it feels awkward. I always think it's generally one reason the things that people didn't talk to us directly about feel awkward to talk to our kid directly about simply because our body is going through a circuit for the first time. So it's rusty, like it's not well oiled, right. It's like a ski slope you're going down for the first time versus 30 million times. So yeah, it feels awkward. But naming that to your kid, even if you are going to read a kid's book about periods just to say, hey, as I'm reading, I might laugh or I might seem awkward, I just want you to know there's nothing like funny or awkward about periods that just happens because nobody ever talked to me directly about it. And so if you notice me, seemingly.

That'S such a good idea.

That's why. And so I'm so excited to read this, but now that it's kind of actually similar, like if you give someone a narrative before, they're less likely to misinterpret it. So then a kid won't think, oh, I guess my period is awkward because, you know, my mom or my dad is laughing about it. If you actually, and then it actually relieves so much pressure from us to like be some smooth talker about periods.

It'S not going to happen. And even if you have talked about it out loud, right. It's just, you know, when you're not a doctor, you don't have these medical, you know, you just don't have the language. And it's okay. I think what you're saying is it's okay if it's awkward and weird. I mean, I was, I read, I read my book with my son. We read half of it two days ago, which was such a huge moment for Me, I kind of even got like teary eyed about it because I was like, oh my God, this is why. This is what I. This is why we did this. This is why I did this. Because he, you know, we're reading this thing and he goes, well, that's weird, you know. And I said, yeah, that is kind of weird. But, you know, it's pretty normal. It happens to a lot of people. And he's like, okay, you know, I mean, it was so easy. It was such a surprisingly easy conversation that we. And we actually got to the point where, you know, he said, oh man, that would be really embarrassing, like if, if someone had an accident and bled through their pants at school. And I said, yeah. He goes, yeah, and people would probably point and laugh. And I said, yeah, people might point and laugh. And I said, wouldn't it be cool if you made a different decision and you, instead of pointing and laughing, you knew what was happening to that person and you weren't scared about it and you just went over and said, hey, you have blood on your pants. Can I give you my sweatshirt or can I help you get to the nurse? What do you need? And he was like, yeah, are we done now? I was like, yeah, we're done now. You know, so it just, it's in there now. It's in his brain, it's somewhere in his body that he can make a different choice if he sees somebody and something looks different on their pants or something. And honestly, I just felt like it was such a huge success and will he make a million mistakes along the way? Probably. As we all do and like, don't know how to respond and don't know how to whatever. But that was the first interaction, real discussion that we had about it.

Yeah.

And I just kind of feel like I want to cry about it because it was so profound. On some level.

I can see that. And I think, you know, there's this topic, periods. I'm going to talk to my daughter about periods. I'm going to read this book. It feels like bold, but obvious, but I think it's really powerful. I think this is, this is a book, this is a topic for the boys too. That's really, really important, right. That they understand what this is. Because I think the things kids really laugh at and poke fun at, I'm just, I'm just formulating this thought I might take it back, but I'm just thinking it now. I think it tends to be the things they don't understand. Like, if you even think about a kid who Points at someone who has some developmental challenge that's visible. I actually think if they understood what that was, they wouldn't find it funny. Right. And kids who don't understand, they're trying to make sense of it. And I think there's an awkwardness to that confusion that might come out as a laugh. And so I think about a generation of kids who already before puberty know what a period is. I don't, I don't think they're going to laugh when someone, you know, has like me, like a white jean short period moment. Cause they're gonna be like, oh, that's a period. That person doesn't have a pad or a tampon. Like. And I do think kids naturally want to help when they. And feel empowered. And so I think that's actually a really realistic thing that could happen.

I think you're right. And it does feel like it's changing and shifting already. A friend of mine told me about an amazing experience with her daughter where apparently her daughter in class raised her hand and said, I think I just. Excuse me, I think I just got my period and I need to use the bathroom. And literally everybody was like, oh, I've got something. I've got something. And three of her girlfriends took her to the bathroom. They, they went to the bathroom together. They handled it with support. And they came back and they sat down and like the class went on.

Yeah.

I can't even. I'm getting goosebumps thinking about it because the panic attack. I would have had my 11 year old self raising my hand to say that. No way. I would have, I would have done anything else.

Yeah.

In the world to not have to raise my hand to say that at the, at the time.

I have optimism too. I mean, look at how much the world has changed around therapy. I think now, you know, my friends are talking about therapy and if someone's like, I'm not in therapy. You're like, what is wrong with you? Like what you know, and. But it wasn't that long ago before no one would see it. So true that they. Right. And that that's changed pretty quickly just because of the power of, of words and conversation. That's really what it is. Right. The antidote to shame is connection. That, that's what reduces shame is talking about things, connecting, sharing stories and books and conversations that allow that to happen can have a powerful quick impact on kind of de. Shaming a topic like periods.

I love that the antidote to shame is connection.

Shame. It's the fear of.

So cool.

Right. So, like, you're like. And you're. Me too. I can't imagine. Again, I didn't get my period at the time, but I'm picturing myself in middle school or high school getting my period. I know it this like, oh, you feel. You feel alone, feel othered. You feel spotlit in the moment. That's why it's so shameful. And you freeze. Right. So the opposite of that is putting your hand up and you kind of are like, either lots of people here have their period or lots of people here, if things happen to their body that feel unexpected and they're not quite prepared for, and if that feels normalized, then there's a lot more freedom.

Yes. It's so true.

I'm curious how you think about. Because I feel like this conversation is. Is about periods and more than periods, because I think about how it relates to just body confidence and confidence in general. How do you think about that?

I mean, it certainly relates having connection around and language and dialogue around how we're feeling.

Yeah.

Head to toe.

Yeah.

Is still hard for people. Still hard for me. And I think it took a long time to have body confidence, especially if you're looking, you know, I remember growing up in the 90s and the early 2000s and looking at all, you know, you're looking at models on magazines. You're like, well, I don't really look like that. What's wrong with me?

Yeah.

You know, and it's getting. It's just. It's even more extreme now. So I think it's a huge topic. I think it's something we all struggle with as a girl turning into a young woman and becoming a woman. And I don't know how you feel about it, but there's a lot of pressure. There's been a lot of pressure. There's still a lot of pressure. I don't know if that's going away or how we address that as a. As a culture.

Yeah. I mean, I think without. We're at a time, especially like with social media and the focus on external validation and looking at other people and information overload, without a doubt. It's. It feels like things are stacked against us in even more intense ways. Women trying to feel good about our bodies, I guess, you know, in a heartening way. It's really hard to feel confident in your body if you have a process that happens in your body that nobody talks to you about. It's just. It's so confusing and overwhelming. And I think that narrative of like, ew, gross, icky, Right.

It's.

This happens, like, every month, or this happens on and off. Right. And the idea that I'm going to feel confident and amazing and trusting of my body when there's something inside me that I don't understand, and that also is associated with yuckiness. That that's. I mean, then. Then that's really stacked against us. And so certainly, I think even just knowing what if. One big area of impact I could have is I could help my daughter understand her body and help her understand that this is a sign. It's a. You know, I would say two things can be true. Like, okay, can periods be inconvenient? Can they sometimes even to ourselves, feel like, ugh, I don't feel great in it? Sometimes we have an inconvenient sign that our body is working. It's also kind of an amazing thing that we get that sign. I mean, if you think about all the different things in the medical field that we would kill to have a sign that we're actually healthy, like, I would take a bunch of inconvenient signs to know, hey, I don't have cancer today, or, hey, you know, my heart health is. Is good. Like, I would actually be like, oh, it's inconvenient. And sometimes like a little, ugh, like, okay, like, if I have a sign of health, that's kind of. Kind of amazing. Right? And I think infusing that into our daughter's narratives about their body, like, there's so many different ways we can look at health, but one of them is reproductive health. And that is, you know, a thing. And so you're going to start to have this sign and, yeah, it's going to be a little annoying sometimes. Going to be a little inconvenient. Those are also true. But what's also true is every time that happens, like, you can kind of look at your body and say, thank you for doing the thing you're supposed to be doing. Like, I'm grateful. That's amazing.

You're so right. I just. I love that. And I hope, I do hope that that idea is becoming really, really widely expressed and shared, because I only just heard of that, and I'm in my 40s, which is blowing. Blowing the way. So, yes, if. If younger women and younger people who are getting their periods know that, then you will. You have just a relief. You're like, okay, it's uncomfortable, it's inconvenient. I got this, though. And I'm. And I'm. And like you said, I'm safe and I'M healthy. I think you brought up a really good word that I hear myself say a lot. Trust. You don't trust your body. And you've, you've been made to feel that your body, it's like dirty and scary and not trustworthy. Yeah. Which is something I hear myself say is like I don't feel like I can trust my body when my period comes because I don't know what's going to happen. And I still feel confused around it. So there is a major trust element that is kind of lost with, with you and yourself, you know, around this subject and around the lack of information and knowledge and around and around the lack of empowerment about. My period is healthy. My period equals health. My period equals powerful. You know, things are working, things are going well. You know, and that's, that's something that I struggle with myself personally is. I don't want to use that word with my body. I want to trust my body.

Yes.

I don't want to feel betrayed by my body. And sometimes that word comes up for me too. And it's a strong word. But I still feel that way. I still feel like, oh my God, it got me again. It betrayed me again. But actually it's inconvenient. It's not a betrayal. It can be inconvenient, but it's crushing it. Actually like my body is just rocking is.

And you know, it's interesting. We're kind of a little bit coming full circle is I feel like the definition of confidence as feeling good about yourself is like completely the wrong definition and I think it sets us in the wrong direction when we think about building our confidence. Definitely building our kids confidence. I always define confidence as self trust. That's really what confidence is. It's trusting that, you know, the way you feel in the moment actually is the way you feel. It's trusting that your feelings and sensations give you information. And it's definitely, you know, looking at signs of your body working like a period as important data, not as a symbol that something is wrong or awful or gross. Yeah. When we think about confidence as self trust, then it, it paints a more obvious road to oh, so if I want my kid to trust themselves, I have to help them understand what's going on in their body and give them a narrative. That's why I help my kid even understand the whole range of feelings because that's actually confidence.

You're so right. Oh my gosh. You have so many good ways of putting things that are really hitting for me. And I'm thinking As well. It just brought up again how important it is for people who don't experience periods to have all this language too. Because if you're trusting yourself, trusting your body, knowing that you're healthy, knowing all these things, but this outside pressure or this outside shame or, or being bullied or making fun of or like, if you're getting that outside, it's really hard to then still go, yeah, whatever, I got this. I'm still awesome. Like, it's hard to contend with opposite feelings, right?

Yeah.

So it's not necessarily more important, but it's equally as important to have this dialogue that everyone is speaking the same language when it comes to this type of stuff in our bodies.

So this is going to be wild because I'm maybe not that wild. Don't get, don't get too excited. Let's hear it. Yeah. Our listeners are like, what is Dr. Becky about to say?

What's she gonna say?

Everyone can like sit back down. It's not, not really that wild at all. But I get excited about when things connect. So I want to actually circle back to food because I actually think food and our kids food and how we react to our kids food, especially when they start to kind of tighten up and, you know, get picky, deeply relates to the theme of trust and to our body and our body signals. So essentially, especially when our kids are young, what I like to remind parents is the only thing our kids can actually control is what goes into their body, their food, and what comes out they're peeing and pooping, which is why. And kids inherently know this, which is why when they even smell their parents efforts to control, they completely shut down and restrict further because that then becomes the way they can get back that control because it took away that initial area first. So in some ways, speaking at attorney haven't shared any information, but I think this framework of, okay, so really my kids eating is all about them kind of feeling in control and kind of exploring on their own. And the more my kid knows that I'm invested in them, kind of, let's say, exploring a wider range of foods. And if I feel extra invested in that, they're actually going to get more restrictive because I'm kind of encroaching on the only territory that they have.

Right, right. Oh my gosh.

What I think is really helpful is a framework. And this actually comes from the Satter Institute. So I want to give her credit, she's brilliant. She talks about like I always talk about in a family system, a parent having a job and A kid having a job. Because to me, that grounds me. I'm like, what am I supposed to do? Well, in any job, I figure out what my job is and do that job. So at the dinner table, right? And she says this, a parent's job is the what, when, and where. What do I serve, when do I serve it, and where does it happen, right? So I'm not a big fan of, like, dinner in front of an iPad, let's say, but that would be aware. If that's what I want to do, I do it. But, like, let's say. So my job would be, okay, so your kid only likes grilled cheese. So I'm like, I'm in charge of the what. So if I decide what is served, when is when it's served, and where it's served, I have done my job, and there's some nuance there. But my kid. My kid's job is the weather and how much that is their job. And it's really important to kind of stay in our lane. So my kid decides of what I've offered, whether they eat any of it and how much of that they eat. Now, to make that a little more nuanced, because I feel like when I tell the people, they're like, okay, but, like, my life's a little more complicated than that. So let's get real what that means. Let's say I have a kid who only eats grilled cheese. Like, literally only eats grilled cheese. Will he like pasta, too?

He will eat. Yes. Noodles with butter and cheese. He'll eat grilled cheese. He will eat pizza. He will eat pancakes, sometimes chicken sausages, sometimes some bacon. This is kind of a new thing. And guess what he will eat. Zero vegetables and zero fruits. Yeah.

Yep.

But guess what he did yesterday or two days ago. What? He licked a pear.

So that's huge.

He licked a pear.

Amazing. Our work here is over. Goodbye. All is good in the world.

By even talking, celebrated at my house, we were, like, cheering for him that he licked a pear.

So I'm gonna jump in and I'm gonna. I'm gonna. That's amazing. And because I'm a director talker, I'm gonna. I'm gonna share something that maybe is a little counterintuitive. So number one, you're already doing what's amazing. If we think about food the way we think about any type of exploration. Food is exploration. And we don't explore when we don't feel safe. Right. We all cling to what we know. And so exploration naturally comes when we relinquish a little control as parents and when kids feel safe. So I think in the what, when, where, we always want to, we always want to offer one safe food. Because if food, if the dinner table becomes a source of anxiety, that long term sticks with the kid much more than whatever they're ingesting. We're often so focused on, like, I want my kid to have a carrot. But if we think long term, what's more important than like, eating a carrot is not having a ton of anxiety build up in your first 18 years of life around food, because that sticks with you way longer than the nutrients of a carrot does.

You're right. If, if I'm experiencing anxiety around the dinner table, is he then also probably experiencing anxiety, or do you think it's possible to see separate that? I think it's possible because I'm anxious about it. I don't know if he's anxious about it, but I know he feeds off my energy.

This is where I think those jobs matter to manage our anxiety. Because I think unconsciously what we do is we end up judging our parenting by like, what our kid eats. Especially we're with other people and we're like, oh, my God, your kid eats a salad. Like, I'm such a bad mom. And like, we end up like, feeling.

That is the way I feel. And like, I even you have heard it in the past, like, you gotta have that kid eat more stuff. I'm like, I know, right? Trust me.

Thank you.

It's not like I am trying every day, every second to get a broccoli in that child's mouth.

But actually that's where we have to reverse it. The truth is we have to say, like, wait, my job is the what, when, where that I have done a good job. If I do that and I've done a good job, just like if I was in an office and I started doing my colleagues job for them, no one would say I was doing a good job. They'd be like, you're kind of wreaking havoc on our organizational structure, like, staying. So that's my job. Right? Like, and so when people also say, like, don't you want to get him to eat broccoli? I'd just be like, thank you for your advice. I'm going to file it. I'm going to shred it, but thank you and like, appreciate it.

Moving on.

Right? That's my job. That's it. Now, I do think there's. We want to offer one safe food. So let's say this is dinner. So your kid eats buttered pasta. Fine. So what I would put on the table is like butter pasta. And I also think though, we can be creative. Like, I don't know if every night I'm going to put 20 million servings of butter or pasta. I'm going to give enough that I'm like, my kid has sustenance. So I'm not like spiraling about whether I'm starving my kid. But I'm also gonna put foods that like, maybe my kid will lick. Maybe that. And that's all I'm doing. Eating with kids definitely helps too. And modeling resistance and skepticism is so helpful. We often do the opposite. We're like, mm, this broccoli is so delicious. But it's actually way too far from our kids experience. So what's helpful? Let's say you have broccoli, pasta and chicken. Your kid only takes pasta. Truly say nothing. It's so hard. But when we think, we think we're being so slick. We're not being slick. Our kids pick up on it. We're like, you just wanna get a piece of broccoli on your plate. Do you wan put one? Like, don't. If you wouldn't say that about butter pasta, don't say it about anything else. Like, it has to be right.

Okay.

And then for you, when you eat, I might like, if it was me, I'd say, do I want broccoli? I don't know. Broccoli is kind of different. I don't know. You know, I'll put it on my plate. I don't know. That's it. And then I wouldn't look to my son and be like, do you see what I just did? It ruins it. It ruins it. Play it cool. They will absorb the modeling. And then maybe I'd go further the next time I'm gonna touch it to, oh, I don't know about this. Oh, that's interesting. Gonna put it down anyway. How was your day? And you know, you're like, I'm winning now, but. But you're not encroaching so directly. So that's number one.

Number two, oh my God.

Just like, we don't want to pressure too much. We do not want to praise either because our kids know it's okay. We all with more information, we can just shift. Because when we praise and celebrate, our kids are smart. So they're like, oh, this it actually is a form of control. It doesn't seem like the same as like, you have to eat your broccoli to Get a TV show. But I think Tova Klein said this, maybe someone else. Lawrence Cohen said praise is just sugar coated control. Because we're kind of telling our kid what we want more of in that moment, right? And so I don't know about you, but, like, for me, let's say I, like, haven't worked out in a while, and then I finally work out. Like, I picture my husband being like, yay, you went to the gym. And I was like, I hate you and I'm not going to the gym for next month. Like, cool. Glad you felt that was your win. Right? Like, you just. You feel it. You're like, why are you so invested in this? And so I would just. It's actually the easiest thing to shift. You're like, cool. I just don't have to, like, celebrate about broccoli anymore. It's actually like your win. Like, you don't have to do that anymore.

Easy, easy.

Exactly. And then I would verbalize this to him because I would actually just say to him, look, you have your thing with food right? Now, here's the thing. I know there's gonna be a day when you eat a variety of food. That day's not today. It might not be tomorrow, but. And this goes back to this, this. I trust you to figure this out. It's your body. You're the only one who knows what things taste like. So I just have a feeling over the next couple of months, you're gonna start shifting a little. But you're gonna notice I'm not gonna, like, make you have things. And I'm not gonna, like, have some big celebration when you have a freaking carrot. Cause, like, if you want a carrot, great. If you don't, I really don't care. And just. So we're just gonna do things a little differently. And there's something else about that moment that really matters. I think it'll be relieving. And also, you can even say to your kid, and if I start to do, like, weird things around food, just tell me. And I'll be like, oh, thank you. You know, and again, that message of trust, because I don't like. To me, the opposite of control is trust. It's really powerful to think about those as opposites. So the more we control our kids with the potty or with food, they actually learn, like, oh, no one trusts me to kind of figure this out. They actually feel less safe. They restrict more. And so a little bit reflecting trust and reflecting this kind of, what you call it, validation and hope. Look, I know this Food's a little tricky, and I kind of know you're gonna figure it out. I trust you. We're gonna kind of, you know, get through this together. That's really heartening to a kid to hear that combination and to know you're stepping back a little because you actually trust them to over time. Now, to be clear, you're not gonna call me tomorrow. You'll be like, oh, my God, he had a salad. That was amazing. That's so not gonna happen. Right? But it's the pathway that matters. I think this is, like a framework that hopefully feels. Feels useful.

I actually love. I love that because I am so stressed about this food situation, and I don't want to do this anymore. Like, it's not working, right. What I'm doing is not working, for sure. Like, that's not happening. And honestly, I say to my mom, she, you know, she said to me before, hey, I think he's melting down maybe because he doesn't have good nutrition, right? He's.

Whatever.

And I said, you know what? You're. You're. You're probably right. You're probably right. But I don't. I don't care, right? I don't care anymore. But it's like, I have to get to work, right? And I just don't have.

I'm putting my tampon in, I'm giving the food on the table, and I.

Gotta get to work all at the same time without washing my hands.

Things have to happen sometimes.

No hand washing. And I just been like, I don't care. And when. There's so. There's such a freedom in that of just. I've done the. I've done the what, I've done the where and the when. I did my job.

That's right.

But it's often when these, you know, sometimes outside influences are coming in. And of course, your own insecurity about the fact that the dude hasn't had a vegetable in his entire life.

Right?

But I really love what you're saying. I can do that. I can totally do that. Because I'm exhausted, actually, by this experience. And I'm sure he's exhausted. And I know he has my number because I do think I'm slick. I do, for sure. And I know I'm not because he keeps looking at me, and what he keeps saying is, I'll do it when I'm four. And I say, okay, cool, let's do it when you're four, or whatever. That sounds good. But I do really want him to trust himself and I want him to know that I trust him.

You're going to do it, you're going to do when you want to do it. Your body, the messages about the body are so powerful. It's always my approach to potty stuff too. Like seeding that idea. It's your body, you're going to try it when you want, you know, what.

Is it connected, you think this control with food and control with body and slash potty. Because I'm having the same issues with him with the potty.

Well, I, I'm going to say this to you directly and with love. If they feel that we're trying to control the only things, then they do start to feel like I don't trust my body. Then the potty process and the food process gets, get really tricky because those things are both usually successful from a place of independence, which is like a lack of parental involvement and control. And so it's actually the same thing with the potty, you know, you know your potty best. How could I know when you want to pee? I don't have your bladder. You know, I mean, it was so the other day, my six year old, it was so funny. We were all eating something and my six year old goes, this is spicy. And my nine year old goes, this is so not spicy at all. He looks at her, he goes, you don't have my taste buds. That's what he said. I was like, boom. Roasted, right? Like because sweet burn. Sweet burn. But it was because it was based in kind of that he's like, I trust my estimation, right? And I actually think this goes back to women and goes back to long term. Because if we want our kids to become teens who are able to say to someone, hey, Noah, I don't want to go home with you. And when they're like, why are you making such a big deal out of that? We want them to say like, hey, I know I have hesitation. I trust my body. You don't know what I want better than I know what I want. Like that's really would be the internal process to be able to stand up and say no and slash your douchebag or, you know, whatever else.

Right.

Right, exactly. The potty, the food, these are early experiences where we can. And it's not too late. However, dear kid, is they're still so young to say, wait. Like, what matters most, both for the potty and food success, but also just long term things that matter is feeling like, wait, I know my body best, I'm in charge, I can learn to trust myself. And then the safety and kind of the exploration and the independence really come kind of naturally from there.

I am following this forever. I'm on your train. I've jumped on your train and I'm ready to take it all the way to success town.

All right, well, thank you. Thank you for your book. Thank you for this honest conversation. This is so, so powerful. It's going to be so helpful to so many. I'm so excited about it and look forward to talking to you soon.

Thank you for having me. Thank you for caring about this book. And I really, I can't wait to tell everybody I know to let their kids eat their grilled cheese forever. Just trust them. Trust your body. I'm so stoked on that. And I really, that's the ethos that I want in my life and my family to trust. Just trust. So thank you so much. Thank you.

Thanks to Airbnb. Remember, your home could be worth more than you think. Find out more@airbnb.com host and thanks to Mommy's Bliss, check out their new pain and fever medicine@mommiesbliss.com thank you for listening. To share a story or ask me a question, go to goodinside.com podcast or you could write me@podcastoodinside.com parenting is the hardest and most important job in the world and you deserve resources and support so you feel empowered and confident for this very important job you hold. I'm so excited to share Good Inside membership. It's the first platform that brings together content and experts you trust with a global community of like valued parents. It's game changing and built for a busy parent who wants to make the most out of the few minutes they have. Good inside with Dr. Becky is produced by Jesse Baker and Eric Newsom. At Magnificent Noise, our production staff includes Sabrina Farhill, Julia Knapp and Kristin Muller. I would also like to thank Erica Belsky, Mary Panico, Brooke Zant and the rest of the Good Inside team. And one last thing before I let you go. Let's end by placing our hands on our hearts and reminding ourselves even as I struggle and even as I have a hard time on the outside, I remain good inside.