The Four Tendencies with Gretchen Rubin

Foreign.

I'm Dr. Becky, and this is good inside.

Once you see these patterns, you see them in the office, they're often very obvious with children at a very young age. Like, they're really kind of easy to spot once you notice the pattern. And so what's great about that is that then you can harness that in order to achieve an aim, whether for yourself or for somebody else. Instead of getting lost in this thing of like, well, one person's right or one person has the better way, it's like, well, we can all learn from each other, but maybe if this doesn't work for you, what are some other ways to try it?

Understanding people who are different from us, understanding our kids who are different from us is one of the hardest things in life. If you're like me, there's a certain way you go about the world. So for me, I tend to kind of like rules. I like knowing what's expected from me, and I have expectations for myself. And when people tell me, hey, I'd like you to do something, as long as it's reasonable, I'm happy to oblige. I'm actually happy to know what they expect. Well, I know I have a kid and I have certain friends who are completely different. Like, why are you asking so many questions? It's not that complicated. And one of the things I recently unpacked was a new way to understand these differences. And it has been mind blowingly helpful to me and I can't wait to share it with with you today on the pod. I'm talking to Gretchen Rubin. She's one of today's most influential and thought provoking observers of happiness and human nature. She's the author of many New York Times bestselling books and she hosts the Happier with Gretchen Rubin podcast. I can't wait for you to hear our discussion on the different tendencies people have and how to use that information in a very practical, helpful way in your real life. We'll be back right after this. Hi, Gretchen. So good to have you on.

I'm so happy to have the chance to talk to you today. Thank you.

So you, I feel like, are someone who's always been pretty curious about human nature and you've written about happiness a lot and you've also written a book called Four Tendencies, which speaks about these kind of four categories of how people orient to the world. And I'd love to focus on that because I have done your quiz. I am all in. I'm not gonna tell you who I am yet. Maybe you can guess because I've been.

As I listen, I've been trying to figure out what you are, and I have to say I'm not sure. So I'm truly in suspense. This is gonna. You're gonna answer a question that's been pestering me. Okay. It's very exciting.

It is the ultimate cliffhanger. I know everyone is on their seat right now. What tendency is Becky? Okay. But actually, it's a perfect lead in what are the four tendencies?

So I was writing a book called Better Than before that was all about habit formation. And it gave me an insight into this narrow aspect of our nature, which turns out to be really, really important. And it's important for habits, but it's also really important for understanding our kids. It's really important for understanding ourselves, our cowork spouses. And so, you know, they say there are two kinds of people in the world. Those that divide the world into two kinds of people, and those that don't. I'm the kind that does. And this. This framework divides people into upholders, questioners, obligers, and rebels. So we'll talk about it, like, in a nutshell version. But if anybody wants to take a quiz and get a report, it's free. It's@gretchenrubin.com quiz but I think most people will know what they are and what their kids are just from this discussion. Okay? So what it looks at is how you meet expectations, how you respond to an expectation. And we all face two kinds of expectations. Outer expectations, like a work deadline or writing a book report, and inner expectation, like your own desire to keep a New Year's resolution or your own desire to get better at diving. So depending on whether we meet or resist outer and inner expectations, that's what makes us an upholder, a questioner, and an obliger or a rebel. So when you look at someone who's an upholder, they readily meet outer and inner expectations. So these are the people who meet the school deadline and remember to pack their gym clothes without much fuss. They want to know what other people expect from them, but their expectations for themselves are just as important. So their motto is, discipline is my freedom. So this is like Hermione Granger. Then there are questioners. Questioners question all expectations. They do something if they think it makes sense. So they resist anything arbitrary, ineffective, unjustified, that doesn't have a purpose. They tend to love to customize. They're very focused on reason. So these are the people, you know, you're like, you asked so many questions, because what's Happening is if it meets their inner standard, if it makes sense to them, they will do it, no problem. But if it fails their inner standard, they'll push back. So their motto is, I'll comply if you convince me why. Then there are obligers. Obligers are people who readily meet outer expectations, but they struggle to meet inner expectations. And I'll just say this is the biggest tendency for both men and women. This is the biggest tendency. You either are an obliger, you have many obligers in your life. So these are people who are like, why can I keep my promises to other people, but I can't keep my promises to myself? These are people who have, who are really good with external expectations, but when it comes to something that they want to do for themselves, they struggle. They're really great at going the extra mile for other people, but they, they often become very frustrated with themselves. And the secret for them is to create outer accountability, even for something that's an inner expectation. And so their motto is, you can count on me, and I'm counting on you to count on me. And then finally, rebels. Rebels resist all expectations, outer and inner alike. And Becky, I have to say I was thinking about the rebel tendency some episodes of yours ago because somebody describing a child and I'm like, that might be a rebel child. So rebels do what they want to do in their own way, in their own time. They can do anything they want to do, anything they choose to do. But if you ask or tell them to do something, they're very likely to resist. And typically they don't tell themselves what to do. They're like, I'm not going to sign up for a 10am swim class on Saturday because just the fact that somebody's going to expect me to show up is going to annoy me. And I don't know what I'm going to feel like doing on Saturday anyway. So their motto is, you can't make me and neither can I. And then when you know these tendencies, it really can help you be a more effective parent and more effective at managing yourself. Because, I mean, and you talk about this all the time, people are different. And to manage ourselves, we have to know ourselves.

There's so many things I want to jump into. One of the things I love and I love about your site and I love the way you profile also other people and you do this in the book is you don't have like judgment. You're not like, everyone should be this.

Absolutely.

Like, we have our tendencies. There are pros and Cons. And to me, actually, I often say this to friends. Like, my favorite adult friends are just the people who like, know themselves. And they can kind of have levity with themselves. They can talk about that. Like, obviously I believe we can change, but to some degree it's like, hey, this is me. And. And I'm also curious about myself and non defensive. But. But I love that your book takes that approach which for everyone listening, you should know there's like no shame. Like you will actually just be like, wow, this is really you as a framework and then set of strategies. No one's trying to change me. I'm just gonna become like a more effective me, you know?

Well, absolutely. And that's one thing I tell people because people are like, well, what's the best tendency or the most successful tendency? I'm like, it's not that one tendency is better than the others because they all have strengths and weaknesses. And the strengths are the weaknesses, right? They go together always.

Always.

But it's the people who know themselves. And they're like, well, I. I know what I need to succeed or I know what is likely to trip me up. And therefore I'm gonna set up my circumstances and my schedule and my surroundings that's gonna help me achieve my aim. And one of the things that's nice about the tendencies is I think a lot of times people feel very. They feel very discouraged or they feel like, why is it that other people can be adults? And like, I just can't. Like everybody else can just get up and go for a run every morning. Why can't I do that? Like, what's wrong with me? And it's like, oh, a lot of people are in the same boat. There's. There's so many solutions that people have come up with. You do not need to change. This is just a thing. There's good aspects to it. There's bad aspect. And now you can focus on like how to move forward to get what you want instead of feeling like there's something wrong with you.

Love that. How to harness. So let's jump into one of these tendencies. The obligers. I hear about this group a lot. I hear about a lot of from moms. I have the PTA meeting. I have my kids soccer practice. I have carpools planned out in my calendar to the wazoo and forever. I've told myself one day a week, I want to take a walk around my neighborhood without my kid or I want to meet a friend. Like, there's something for me and why can't I do it? And I feel like this might be obliger. Ask from your framework. Yeah, like can you walk through this a little bit? Or how have kind of some of the things you figured out could help this person harness their strengths to get what they want.

Yes. So what you described is like exactly what obligers will express. They often say, I can't draw boundaries. I'm really bad at self care. I come through for other people. But why can't I like take time for myself or whatever it might be? So the key to remember is that you need to create outer accountability even for an inner expectation. So you can't think about self care or priorities or putting yourself first. You have to think about, well, how can I create outer accountability? So let's say you want to go for a walk in the park. How would you create outer accountability for that? You might go with a friend who'll be disappointed if you don't show up. You might take your dog, who's going to be really disappointed because it's a highlight of your dog's day. You might think of your duty to your future self. If you come to the end of the year and you haven't been doing this, you're going to be really disappointed with yourself. And maybe you're not going to have those benefits that you would have had in terms of mood regulation, energy, being out in the sunshine, all these things. You might think of your duty to be a role model for someone else. I want to show my children, I want to show the people around me what it looks like to take time for yourself. And if I don't do it, then they're going to think, talk away. But actions are louder than words. And I don't see you doing that. I need to model. You talk a lot about modeling behavior. I need to model the behavior that I'm talking about. So in these ways you create outer accountability even for an inner expectation. And sometimes obligers feel like it's somehow weak that they shouldn't like need to rely on outer accountability. I'm like, you're the biggest group. There's a ton of people who need outer accountability. There's nothing wrong with that. Just figure out what works for you. Because some people, for some people, taking a class is a really great way to get outer accountability. For some people that doesn't work. So you really have to tinker it to yourself. But realizing that the outer accountability is what is needed even for an inner expectation.

You know what, there's two things that come to Mind number one is there's no morality. There's no morality here. Like, there's no better. There's no morality. Something I say to parents a lot when they're stuck with their kids. And it just made me think of this is the solution is always in the problem, right? Like my kid is always saying poop at the table. And I'm like, stop. Well, what if I just told them, let's go to the bathroom and say poop, poop, poop. Feel free, say it all you want, I'll say it too and then we'll get that out of our system. Like, the solution is in the problem. And what you're saying is if someone's saying, my problem is I can't engage in self care. Like, I'm so good at doing things for other people and bad for myself. Like, I love the light bulb of like, wait a second, I just heard what I'm good at. So maybe that's my solution. The impact on my body, whether I take a walk because I've just said I deserve it or I take a walk because I told my friend I wanted to and I made them text me to get it done.

That's great.

The walk is the walk. My body doesn't like feel that different. So it's just a means to an end. And the idea that we, you're saying like obligers have natural ability, a tendency, ability to get certain things done. Let's use that to your benefit.

Absolutely. And you know, so my type is upholder. That's the one that readily meets outer and inner expectations. And there's pros to that and cons to that. But we often give each other bad advice because we're coming from our own tendency. So it used to be that obligers would say, say to me things like, oh, well, now I exercise because I know I need to stay healthy for my kids. And I would be like, well, don't do it for your kids, do it for you, because this is important for you. You don't need to like bring somebody else into it. But I realized that's actually a really good pattern of thinking for obligers. That's really helping them to do something for themselves because they're invoking that outer accountability. So who am I to tell somebody that what they're doing is wrong? It works for them. And so again, it's like people are often being like, well, you shouldn't do that or you should do that. It's like, well, maybe you should or maybe you shouldn't. Because you might be coming from a very different place.

You know, I think that's pointing out like a really big blind spot for me too, because. Okay, bum, bum, bum, bum, bum, reveal. I am also an upholder.

I kind of thought that. I have to say I suspected that I.

You know what? I feel like I have part. I have parts of others. I don't have that big of a part of an obliger. I'm gonna be honest. That part's not that big. Used to be. But I definitely have a part of me. Maybe that's not a rebel, but I definitely have a questioning part of me. But you know, I was actually talking about with my husband, he's like that motto, discipline is my freedom. He's like, becky, that is literally you. Like, that is exactly you. Right? So I talk about self care a lot. And to me, one of the key things our kids need is a parent who feels sturdy. And that to me always involves tapping into our non caregiver parts if the only part of us left is caregiving of others. And that always gets in our way, ironically, of being a good caregiver because we're so overwhelmed and depleted, et cetera. And one things I say a lot is people will say to me. I go out to dinner with my friends because it's really good for my kids to see. And hearing you say this, I think my natural reaction would be like, I'd feel like I need to motivate them. Like what? Like, you just deserve dinner. Like you just, you know. But I love what you're saying. That's like very Becky centric. Like, okay, Becky, you're just speaking to yourself like you're not speaking to a mirror. You're speaking to someone different from you. And maybe respect that this is their framework and that's useful. And like, who am I to change that narrative?

Well, and when I was writing about happiness, like I was always struck by people who would just something that would seem easy to me would be a struggle for them, or they would have a completely different approach to it. And then, and then finally I started to see that there were these patterns. And once you see these patterns, you see them in the office, they're often very obvious with children at a very young age. Like, they're really, really kind of easy to spot once you notice the pattern. And so what's great about that is that then you can harness that in order to achieve an aim, whether for yourself or for somebody else, instead of getting lost in this thing of like, well, one person's Right. Or one person has the better way. It's like, well, we can all learn from each other, but maybe if this doesn't work for you, what are some other ways to try it?

So let's move to kids. Let's, you know, I don't know your kid. It's like, why do I have to. Why do I brush my teeth every night? Why do I have to, like, you know, I'm knocking at cavities, Right. Like, we have these, like, difficult moments. I'm wondering if kids, if those are questioners, like, I, I want to do what I want to do and you better convince me, you know, or if those are rebels or what. Like, let's walk through some, like, difficult parenting moments with kids in terms of the tendencies.

Yes. So if you have an upholder child, these children are pretty easy. And, like, they are the ones that are going to be focused on getting their homework on time and, like, feeding their fish. One thing you will see kind of negative that can be negatives for upholders is they can get, like, really uptight. Like, the teacher says that I have to read for half an hour tonight. And, yeah, we went to see Grandma and Grandpa and it's 11:30 at night, but I need to read because my teacher says I have to. It's hard for them sometimes to understand. Like, when, like, rules need to be adjusted.

The teacher will never know, but.

So you as an adult need to, like, frame it. But the thing is, you don't want to say things like, the teacher will never know. That's not reassuring to an upholder. An upholder is like, we are respecting the expectation. And say, like, the teacher will understand that if you are exhausted, you will not be able to learn in class tomorrow. I promise you that. If you ask your teacher what she would think you should do, she would say, get a good night's sleep. And then you'll be, you know, you want to frame it in, like, what resonates with them. Because a rebel parent might be like, oh, it's great. Like, who cares? Like, let's stick it to the teacher. And it's like, to an upholder, they'd be like, oh, my gosh, I can't. They can't handle that. And then they can also sometimes be like, it's hard for them to, like, if schedules change, they can be rigid even as children, certainly as adults. I'll say that as an upholder. So for them, they're the ones that are pretty easy to manage in terms of, like, meeting outer and inner expectations because you Want to make sure that they don't sort of get too hard on themselves.

Too rigid and too hard.

Too rigid and too hard on themselves. You want to give them a lot of notice, like, this is what's going to happen this weekend. They tend to really respond well to that. Questioners need reasons. They need to have a reason for what they're doing, and if they understand the reason, they will get on board. If they don't have a reason, they will not get on board. And a very poignant example I heard of this was a questioner man was telling me how when he was young, he was on the soccer team and he loved soccer, he played goalie and he had a great coach. Then they got a new coach and the coach was like, okay, I have all these, you know, all these drills that everybody's gonna do. And this kid went up to him and said, hey, I don't think I should do those drills because I'm a goalie and I have such a different position that I'm playing. And the coach was like, listen, kid, I'm the coach. Everybody does these drills. And the kid quit because he's like, that doesn't make any sense. But if the coach had said to him, hey, I get it, it seems like you really have a different position. But I've studied the training of all the best teams and they show that accuracy and speed and endurance are important no matter what position you play. And I assure you, this is going to work just as well for you. That kid would have been like, great. All I needed to know was that there was a reason, like in a five minute conversation, why do I need to learn the multiplication tables? I can do it on my phone. Why do I need to write a book report? You know, I read the book. If you take the time to explain to that child, they will get on board. If you say things like, because I say so, because everybody does, they won't get on board.

So I have a, I have a big picture question. So we have their kids, they have these different tendencies and to some degree, just to be effective, always you have to understand who your kid is. And kind of, we all flex and learn their language at the same time. Sometimes one of the things I think about for my kids or kids in general, is there's a time for that. And to some degree, is it part of our job as a parent? Not just, I don't think it's ever going to be effective to say, like, because I said so, but is it some degree our job to. To loosen the hold of a tendency to have a little more flexibility? Or do you feel like. No, like, this is kind of like who someone is, and we have to kind of cater to that.

I mean, I think you want to help them understand how to sort of see past their tendency. But I do think. I mean, judging from the adults and children that I know, this really colors their perspective. It's the way that things make sense to them.

Because, like, let's take an upholder. I'm an upholder, Definitely. My first kid is an upholder. So I'm thinking about him being the one. Let's just say it's him who's like, I didn't do my reading. Oh, my goodness. Oh, my goodness. Right? So I know your example. Like, another intervention, I could see myself saying, and just. I just really want to know your opinion. You're like, becky, I really wouldn't do that. Be like, oh, you hold yourself to such a high standard, and that's like, an amazing thing. And you respect the assignments, and that's so helpful. And it's so hard to, like, give yourself a little bit of leeway in a moment when there's some extenuating circumstance. That thought of, I have to read, I have to read is, like, so loud. It's almost like there's, you know, no other comforting thoughts inside you. I don't know. Something like that. I would just kind of, like, point that out in that way. So instead of completely catering to the tendency, I guess my intervention is more aimed at, like, kind of, like, noticing the rigidity of that tendency in the moment. I'm curious what you thought of that.

Well, this is very colored by my own experience as an upholder, but I don't find that comforting. When somebody says, oh, well, you should give yourself a break. That actually is like.

Well, I didn't say that. I didn't say that.

Oh, okay. Okay. Yeah. No, that's true. You're saying, like, it's hard. You're just noticing, like, oh, you're experiencing the tension of the rigidity.

Like, wow, this is, like. This feels so important right now. It's so hard to, like, give yourself a little flexibility right now.

Well, that's interesting. Well, then that goes to, like, the emotional acuity, like, the understanding of what's happening inside. So I think that that's a great. Because you're right. It's not a solution. It's just, like, notice how you're feeling.

Yeah, I'm almost like, maybe we're like, yes, noticing, because to some degree, I think what you're saying is, like, the more aware you are of your tendency, oddly enough, the more open you are to probably other interventions. Because you're like, wow, this is this tendency really being loud.

Yeah. And you don't think like, oh, this is universal, or there's no way out of this. It's like, oh, this is just something that I'm experiencing. And there are other ways that people could be. Yes. I think the self knowledge thing is really, really key.

So wait, before we go to kids, I'm gonna be a little selfish. Cause I feel like I have a lot coming up for me right now. I'm gonna share with you. Because one of the things that comes up in my marriage a lot is like, if we're going on a trip or something. And like, I'm like, okay, well, did you book the car and did you do these things? Like, I love to, like, connect all the dots in my mind.

Yes.

Further in advance.

Yes.

Than my husband does, where he's like, obviously, we're gonna be fine. Right. And this can be a thing between us, like, a little bit. Cause he's like, what? Like, why are you thinking about that? Like, who cares? And I'm like, no, but like I said, I don't know why I care, but I do. Is that like an upholder tendency?

Upholders tend to really like, to plan and to have everything, like a to do list and have a sense that, like, everything's in order. Yes. Which is. Which is a strength and a weakness.

Right. You know? Right, right.

Do you know what your husband is?

I don't know. I'm trying to figure it out. I feel like I have to have him, like, look at it. I don't want to. I don't want to label him, tell him to take the quiz, you know? Exactly. But. But what? You know? And it is. It's so much as a strength, but it's so funny. My husband is so much more likely to be like, let's go to that restaurant downtown. And I'm like, the one that doesn't take reservations. Like, what if it's like a really long wait? And he's like, I don't know, like, we'll. We'll have a wait. Like, it's gonna be a great night. Right? Where, like, to me, I'm almost like, that's like a. That's almost something. Like, I wouldn't even consider doing that. Even though I'm like, wait, like, when we've done that, it's not like I'm not capable of waiting and sometimes those nights are super fun.

Yeah, well, in fact, when I was coming up with this framework, which took me months of just like, how to spot the patterns, it was really, really hard. But one of the insights for me came from exactly an example like that a journalist was calling me to talk about, like, why can't people be spontaneous these days? Like, why is that? And I said to her, I don't put any value on spontaneity. I don't value it. I don't want to be spontaneous and I don't seek to be more spontaneous. And she was like, wow. And I was like, who says spontaneity is good? I mean, it's like, I don't like spontaneity. Now, of course, to your point, you want to be flexible, you want to be able to roll with it. You don't want to close yourself off from life's experiences. But one of the things about an upholder is like, that isn't appealing to them. Whereas with a rebel, spontaneity is really exciting and good. And so if you have a rebel and you're like, oh, let's buy tickets to a concert that's three weeks away, that's less exciting to them. But if you're like, hey, you want to come along? I got these concert tickets, it's in four hours. They might be like, yeah, I'm in. Because that is exciting to them. Whereas to me, I'm like, oh, can I do something with a four hour lead time? I'm not sure I can.

I might go to bed 20 minutes later than usual. I don't know.

I don't know how that's gonna be exactly. That's another upholder thing, is the execution. Yeah, yeah.

So interesting. Okay, so are there tendencies? I'm just curious, like, are the tendencies and the percentage of, like, how they kind of break out in adulthood? Is that how everyone starts or to some degree? Or like more kids are more rebels or more questioners? It's part of their exploration in the world, or not really. Like, once you start one way, you kind of stay that way.

Well, I have to say, in my observation, I'm a pretty big believer in the genetic roots of personality. And I do think that your tendency is something that is hardwired and it's something that you bring into the world. And it's not culture or upbringing or birth order or nationality or anything like that. I mean, I think. And when you know what you're looking for, you do see them in children. It's not always obvious because Children aren't autonomous in the way that adults are autonomous, but you can often spot it pretty early. If, you know, like, I have a child who's an upholder, and I hadn't invented the framework at that point, but if I had, I would have. I would have known very early from just the way she behaved. It's fascinating, though. Many rebels will say that they remembered the moment in childhood when they're like, wow, they can't make me. I mean, somebody was saying, like, I was putting on my socks. It's like, like a little, little kid struggling to put on my socks. And my mom was like, put on your socks. And I'm like, hey, lady, you can't make me. And it was just like this electrifying realization. So it's interesting. So I do think that they persist throughout our lives.

So it's interesting. Probably what are just day to day, there's no better. But what are some of the more difficult kind of tendencies in terms of parenting, just so parents can almost validate to themselves, yes, this is different than maybe another kid. This is hard.

Well, rebel, I think, is the most misunderstood tendency. It's the one that's the most different from the other three tendencies. And so people often don't understand, like, how to engage with the rebels in a productive way. It's frustrating for the people who are not rebels, and it's also frustrating for the rebels because they're like, if you would just get out of my way, I could get this done. But, like, everybody's meddling with me, you know?

So can you give an example? Is this the kid who's like, to me, my image of this kid is like, they love soccer. They love soccer, and they won't get on their shoes to go to soccer. Like, meanwhile, like, even if it's not even, like, a thing that they hate where, like, is that something a rebel could even do?

Because. Because if you ask or tell them to do something or even, like, encourage them and even praise them for doing something, you ignite the spirit of resistance. And so by saying, like, remember, get your shoes on. Or your shoes on.

You love soccer. You love it.

You're igniting the spirit of resistance. Whereas if you don't do that and you're just like, okay, we're leaving at 8am and if we don't leave by 8am you're gonna be late and the coach is gonna be mad at you. It's like, are you ready at 8:00am and you might say, like, 10 minutes to 8, just so that they can Track the time. But one of the most kind of memorable examples I heard of a rebel child is so I have a podcast, Happier with Gretchen Rubin. And sometimes people have questions and a woman said, I'm an upholder. I have a little, little kid who is a rebel. How do I get her to understand that there's some things you just have to do? Like you have to wash your hands after you use the potty. And my answer to her was like, you don't have to wash your hands after you use the potty. You don't. And your little girl has figured this out, and you cannot stand by her side for the next 75 years and make her do it. So you're gonna have to help her, as a rebel, decide that for her own reasons, this is what she wants to do. It's part of her identity. It's part of consequences, whatever. So the interesting thing, though, is she emailed back and she said, oh, that was really helpful to me as an upholder dealing with rubble. But here's how it played out. So this mother and daughter had gone to the mother's grandmother. So this was the little girl's great grandmother's house, who was very, very frail and had just gotten out of the hospital. And her daughter was running around. And she said, I realized they couldn't say to my daughter, you have to stop running. I can't make her stop running. And so she said to her little girl, great grandma is so frail. It would be so terrible if she fell or something bad happened to her. She needs her protectors. Can you be one of her protectors? And the little girl said, yes, I can be one of her protectors. And then she was so gentle with her great grandmother because it went to this idea of identity and choice. This is who this little girl wanted to be. It's what she chose. She was from freedom and choice. She was choosing to act in a certain way, but just ordering them, it kind of ignites the spirit of resistance. And so that can be really hard as a parent, because we spend a lot of times telling our kids what to do.

Yes. And I don't know if one of my kids is full rebel, but, you know, definitely has that. And to me, saying to him, like, I wonder how we can solve this problem? Or, like, I wonder if anyone in this room has an idea, you know, is very different. Right, exactly. Is choice. That's exactly right.

Yeah. So with rebels, what helps is you give them choice and freedom. So do you want to do it now or later? Do you want this One or that one part of it is identity. Oh, you're, you're an animal lover, you're a musician, you're so creative. Like you, you're, you're an athlete. Because then, then you know, actions follow identity. You can help them as a parent, like lean into an identity or you give them information, consequences, choice, which is like if we leave by 8am you won't get in trouble. If we leave after 8, 8am you will get in trouble. It's up to you.

Do you feel like those kids though? Because I feel like those kids, you give them those consequences and they kind of like put their finger up at you. They're like, I don't care. Like I remember my youngest like being like, it was not my proudest moment as parents. Definitely not what I stand for. Not because I think it doesn't feel good for kids because I actually think long term it doesn't, it's not effective. But I remember saying to him was something like, I am going to take away all of your stuffed animals if you don't. You know, it's not like they were comfort objects. But you freaking loved his stuffed animals.

Yeah.

And I will never forget, Gretchen, I think he was 4. He walked into his room, this child, my third child, he opens his closet, I'm witnessing this. He pushes a stool, like a little step stool there, steps on it, takes down a mini suitcase, puts all of his stuffed animals in it, zips it and wheels it to me. And he goes, here you go. And I was like, I wow, I just got played. Oh my goodness, I just got played. He was like, oh, you want to take away my stuffed animals? I will make that easier for you to show you how much you do not exert any power over me in that way. Right.

That is such a compelling example. Wow. He was four. Four.

I mean this child, I can't even tell you is, I mean is my third. So he gets less. He is just so competent, like he doesn't ask for help with anything. He's like, his life story is like, I can figure this out by myself. And he can in a way that he sometimes like prepares breakfast for his 12 year old brother, like literally. But at the same time because that is such a part of his identity, his competence. Right. Where like here to me even like I don't like these threats of punishments. Like I just think there's better ways. But I have found with him where my older one, my upholder, he's so guilt prone that the threat of it's not the punishment he just would be so upset that I'd be disappointed in him that he'd want to avoid that distress. But not good later on. People pleasing stuff, but. Right. Like, for my youngest, a rebel, like, I don't even think it would work. I've seen it.

But here's the thing, though. That's the difference between punishments and consequences. So taking away his stuffed animals is a punishment, but a consequence is like, this is just the natural thing that is gonna happen. If you are late, you will be in trouble because your coach says everybody has to be there on time.

Got it? Not like, I'm making you in trouble. Like, if you get late, your coach might not start. Like, just. That's information for you to digest.

Right? It's like, if you got it, if you don't hand in your book report, then you're gonna get a really bad grade. And if you get a really bad grade, then you're not gonna be able to, like, go on the trip. It's like. And then you can't rescue. You know what I mean? This is the thing where, like, a lot of times we want to swoop in and at the last time, like, okay, honey, you can stay up until 10:30 finishing it, because I know it's really important. It's like, no, because you had a week to do it. And part of the assignment was to, like, part, you know, to do it along the way, whatever. So we can't rescue. That's what adult rebels will say. Do not rescue a rebel child. They learn consequences as they happen. And if you protect them from consequences, well, then that works for them.

Great. And I think that is so right. And this is helping me put so much more context to things that I have figured out with my youngest, like, are really helpful. And what's interesting, though, Gretchen, is I really do see this softening of that tendency. So that's why, like, I don't know, you and I could have many more discussions on this. I really do feel like, what happened at 4, like, even that hardening and it's really not there in the same way. He's still him. And, and, And I'm obsessed with him because he's going to be a leader one day. Right? But one of the lines, especially when he was younger, that always helped. He'd be like, let's say, you know, I don't know, I want to go outside and play in the snow. Okay? And I'm not a big, like, you have to wear your jacket. I'm like, my kids are independent beings. Doesn't matter. But there was a day he was like literally in a pair of shorts and he wanted to go to snow. And I was like, I just like, I actually think that's like irresponsible, you know, and so, and he wanted to go in the snow. Meanwhile, he doesn't have a history of going the snow in shorts. It was just one of these moments where he like, felt like I want. Wanted him to put on jackets. So I had this choice. I said something like this, but here's the magic line with him. And then the, the, the action. I said, look, sweetie, you can choose, you can choose to not put on your snowsuit and play inside, or you could choose to put it on and play outside. That's it. But then this is the two parts. I said, it's totally up to you. And then I'd walk away and not be staring at him. Yes, it's something about it's totally up to you and turning my back.

Yes.

I think gave him what he needed to like, act in line with logic. Yes.

No. And I think that this is, I think a lot of times we intuitively understand, even if we don't have these, these, these terms. We start, you know, if with perception and understanding. Like really, and this is what you're saying, like really pay attention to your child. You can start to see, like, this child's gonna be too hard on themselves. So I don't wanna come down on them because they're gonna like, lose it. But this other child, like, I need to set things up in a different way. And like giving them this choice, it's like, hey, up to you. Like, some rebels love a challenge. Like, I don't think an 11, I don't think many 11 year olds could learn to play that piece of music. But I don't know, you're pretty persistent when there's something you make up your mind you wanna do. So we'll see. I'll show them.

That's right. Again, the solution is in the problem.

Exactly, exactly, exactly.

Love this. All right, tell me any last thought for right now? I think I know everyone's listening is be like, I need this book, I need this quiz. Because it really is. I just love the approach of like, let's figure this out, let's understand it. Here's a framework. Now within that framework, let's work with this person, not against. It's just the only thing that could be effective. So I love it. Any, any last thoughts? Anything else you want to add that I didn't ask about?

I just think that it, this is a great way to just cut through a lot of just bafflement. It's like I don't understand, like why we're not communicating. And when you understand that somebody just has a different perspective, they're just seeing a situation in a different way, or they need a different kind of situation in which to thrive, it lets us show more compassion to other people and also to ourselves. Because like you say, it's not that one's right and one's wrong or that you have to think that it's better or worse. It's just like, you know, you get what you get and you don't get upset. Like, let's just work with what we have and like find a way for everyone to thrive.

Love it. Well, thank you so much. So excited to talk again soon.

Thank you.

Today's episode is in partnership with Airbnb and Happy Egg. Thank you for listening. To share a story or ask me a question, go to goodinside.com podcast or you could write me@podcastoodinside.com parenting is the hardest and most important job in the world and you deserve resources and support so you feel empowered and confident for this very important job you hold. I'm so excited to share Good Inside membership. It's the first platform that brings together content and experts you trust with a global community of like valued parents. It's game changing and built for a busy parent who wants to make the most out of the few minutes they have. Good inside with Dr. Becky is produced by Jesse Baker and Eric Newsom at Magnificent Noise. Our production staff includes Sabrina Farhey, Julia Knapp and Kristin Muller. I would also like to thank Erica Belsky, Mary Panico, Brooke Zant and the rest of the Good Inside team. And one last thing before I let you go. Let's end by placing our hands on our hearts and reminding ourselves even as I struggle and even as I have a hard time on the outside, I remain Good Inside.