The One with Cheryl Strayed on Repair

I'm Dr. Becky, and this is good inside. I want to talk about something I come back to time and time again as a person and as a parent. Repair. I mean, we've all lost our cool. We've all said things we didn't want to say. And it's really not these moments that define us. It's all about what we do next. Okay, two crazy, exciting things related to this topic of repair. First, my TED Talk. That's right, my TED Talk on Repair will be live on Ted.com starting September 13th at 11am Eastern. So after you listen to this episode, please go find it and listen. Second, I'm about to jump into a conversation with the author, Cheryl Strayed, all about our imperfections and repair.

Most parents have, you know, very often inadvertently said or done something that ends up being invalidating or shaming. Right. And then I think that the most important thing is to forgive yourself for that and remember that this kind of saying the wrong thing is very much part of being human. It's very much part of being a parent.

Good parents don't get it right all the time. Good parents repair. And here's the thing. We can't repair with our kids until we've repaired with ourselves. I'm so excited to talk with Cheryl Strayed. And you don't want to miss it more after this. Hi, Cheryl.

Hi, Dr. Becky. How are you?

I am better now that we are talking. This is such a treat. Oh, my gosh.

For me too. I mean, really. I've told you before on Instagram, when I DM'd you on Instagram and said just how absolutely helpful and wonderful you are and how much I appreciate all of your work. It's helped me as a human and a parent.

Well, I feel the same way. And I know I've told you this, that I feel like I read your words and I've said to myself, am I plagiarizing Cheryl's work? Like, I feel like we have. Do we have the same mind? Do we think the same thoughts and just express them differently, but also in the same way? And you said something so beautiful to me, I remember in response about kind of like the universality of certain truths that, like, none of us own. I don't know. You'll say it in a more poetic way, but yeah. How do you think about that?

Yeah, I think that some version of what you said is true. And it's not the plagiarizing, but it is. The universal truths remain true throughout all time. We see this obviously when we turn to literature, to see ourselves. We can read about somebody's grief or heartbreak or love or victory 300 years ago, and we feel it in our own hearts because those truths, essential human experiences and essential human emotions are unchanged over time. I mean, we each have our own specific and original versions of heartbreak and victory and love and loss. But, you know, more often than not, we have more in common. You know, one thing, Dr. Becky, one thing that was so cool. When Wild was first published, I had this. First it was a trickle and then a flood of essentially the same email. And it was like, oh, my God. It's uncanny. We have so much in common. Let me tell you all the things we have in common. And how can this be? Isn't this nuts that, you know, we've got this and this and this, and pretty soon I got so many of them that I realized what's nuts is that we don't assume that we have all those things in common, you know, that we experience that as a surprise. When you say something that rings the bell of truth in my heart, I'm like, wow, how can it be that you think that and I think that, or you live through that and I live through that? What I've come to know is the opposite is true. How can it be that we assume that we are so different from others.

And, you know, you didn't just say this word, but it makes me think about. To me, so much of the core struggle in motherhood is feeling alone, which really is, right. The essence of I'm the only one, or I'm the only one who feels this way. I'm the only one who did this thing. No other mother in the world, you know, is as horrible or monstrous or has such awful thoughts. Yeah, it's just so painful, that same thought for millions of moms, parents around.

The globe, and everyone else is doing better than me. And I think that a lot of that, too, is projection. Sometimes when I have felt judged. I remember when my kids were younger and at that age where they would sometimes have, know, public meltdowns. And, I mean, it's so. I think every parent has lived through that. Just the. The way you feel so humiliated when, you know, your child is on the floor, you know, in the grocery store screaming, and you're having to sort of like, you know, contend with that in public, and you feel like everyone's looking at you and judging you, and that's really so very often your own internal story. You know, a lot of times people are just looking at you and thinking, okay, you Know, that's happened to me, too. And I don't know why we have that kind of instinct to carry around that kind of sense of aloneness or sense of shame or humiliation about such an. A universal experience, but we do.

Yeah. I have so many things I want to say after that. You know, number one, I remember in my early days, you know, so many journalists asked me the same question. They're like, do you feel so much pressure when you're out with your kid? Like, what? And one of them, it just triggered when he said, what if your kid had a meltdown, like, in the grocery store? You know? And, you know, I remember saying back, I don't think there's anything I could, quote, teach that would be more powerful to other parents than them seeing me with my kid having a meltdown in the grocery store. Because to me, that's, like, underlying. Everything I want to share with parents is, like, this is hard for everyone. Kids are tricky. We're tricky. No one's perfect. Kids have meltdowns. Like, my kids, of course, has meltdowns. Like, you know, I wouldn't. You know, so that's like the. The assumed aloneness of our parenting experience, of my kid is the only kid who. Blank. I think we end up interpreting as, therefore, something is wrong with my kid and something is wrong with me. Right. We usually interpret aloneness or being the only one as a sign something's wrong with us. And then we just carry that as parents. Right? We carry that shame. We don't talk about things. Right. We don't see community. We kind of get frozen in that shame. And then in some ways, the cycle keeps repeating.

Why do you think we do this? I mean, and I can tell you, too, in my work is Dear Sugar, where I get letters on all sorts of subjects, parenting, and all the experiences of life. This is a pretty universal issue where people will be in pain or confused or sad, and it always boils down to they feel like they're the only one. Why do you think we do that psychologically, I mean? Because I can even say I do it, too. And I have to remind myself, like, really consciously that I'm not.

You know, the first thing that comes to mind right. With that is, okay, well, what have we learned about struggling, about making kind of, quote, mistakes, about having something happen that's out of alignment with our values, about having something happen that we didn't want to happen. And if I think about the way most people were parented, really, I don't know. You have kids who are born with all the feelings, all of the urges, all of the hard to manage thoughts, the same thoughts and feelings and urges we have. And none of the skills, right? That's just. They're just balls of inconvenience, therefore, right? They're just exploding with all of that inside them. And so they, quote, act out a lot. They hit, they say, I hate you, they spit, they do all these things. And then what's kind of classic as a response, even though, again, I think everyone's doing the best they can at the resources they have in the moment, what's classic is for that kid to be what, sent to their room, to be told. I mean, sometimes at best, to be sent to their room. But if you think about the circuits in our body is when something is really hard and overwhelming and struggling. Usually what's stored after in our body, back from the time when we were building that wiring in the first place, is aloneness. It's usually literally is. It's after struggle comes aloneness. After a moment where I was out of alignment with my values came aloneness. After a momentary reactive event came aloneness, aloneness, and literally aloneness in our room. Go to your room. Aloneness in punishment, aloneness in shame and judgment. We don't do things like that in our family. And so our body develops this wiring where we build this really intense association. Struggle and overwhelm and out of control moments is literally almost like tied with aloneness. And now fast forward, you have a moment in adulthood, and consciously, it's not like we're thinking, oh, well, could other people have this happen? Our body just brings up, what do I know about moments when I struggle or am not proud of my behavior? Well, what I know is I literally felt alone in those moments. Right. And I think our body brings that up for us, you know, over and over until we, you know, start to be conscious of that as a start and then kind of rewire, re parent ourselves. Yeah.

And part of that healing and evolution is about coming out from that aloneness. I mean, honestly, both of us do that work as Dear Sugar, I'm saying, okay, step forward here are all the problems we have. And you're not alone in your problem. You're saying the same thing about all of the many, many challenges of parenting and the beautiful things of parenting too. But to bring those hard parts forward and talk about them with kindness and honesty, I mean, my goodness, I think that's really such important work.

And I think part of that also, you know, in those moments, you know, especially if we go back to Childhood, which I do often, just because it's where our body developed, you know, the way that we see and see the world and learn about ourselves is, okay, so let's say I just hit my brother, and now I'm, like, punished alone in my room. I'm in a shame spiral. Right. Like, I just became my latest behavior. I just became that bad thing. You can't even separate, right. What I did from who I am. And I think that's what we do all the time as adults, too, when we struggle and why we don't talk. And I am this bad person. Okay. I'm a good person who did something I'm not proud of is a very different mindset than I'm a monster. Yeah. And so that. I guess what I'd love to talk out with you is, okay, so maybe we have some understanding if it resonates. Okay. Why do we do this? Okay, well, like, what now? And to me, the word repair, you know, I often think about repairing with other people, but. But also, there's, like, a repair process in ourselves. And repair, to me, is often. I don't know, it's like the thing that I think about the most as, you know, so full of hope to move from these patterns that keep us stuck, these feelings of aloneness, to something with so much more possibility. And so I'm curious what that word means to you.

Yeah, well, it was interesting because I started to think about it when you just described. When you were describing that process of, like, being the child who sent to their room, and they feel like they are that thing, you know, the parent who said, you know, shame, you know, why did you do that? Why did you hit your brother or whatever. And of course, the parent who says that doesn't even necessarily know consciously that, like, they're. They're shaming their child. They're. They're, you know, scolding their child for something that, you know, for. For behavior that isn't okay. Right. And. But so it was interesting when you were giving that example and I was imagining that child in the room feeling like, oh, I'm a monster. I felt ashamed because I thought, oh, my gosh, you know, I probably said some version of that to my own children, my kids who are now 17 and 19, and it's all ruined now. Right. Like, that's in them. And I failed as a mother. Like, there was a little, like, you know, because of course, most parents have, you know, very often inadvertently said or done something that ends up being invalidating or shaming. Right. And then I think that the most important thing is to forgive yourself for that and remember that this kind of saying, the wrong thing is very much part of being human. It's very much part of being a parent. And so many of those wrong things can be fixed and profoundly altered. And in some ways, it's even more powerful. Instead of always doing the right thing, which is impossible, it's even more powerful to model that repair. And so to say, I'm sorry, or this is what I meant to say when I said that, or I'm going to work on expressing myself in a way that, you know, doesn't. That doesn't invalidate you or doesn't shame you. And to model that kind of, you know, seeking, I guess that seeking a better version of oneself, I think, is a really beautiful and powerful thing that we can do for ourselves and also for our kids, because they're gonna need that same skill. The skill we're trying to teach our kids isn't how to be perfect, because that's not a skill, because none of us are. But, yeah, I think that that's. To me. And also it's the way. It's not only the way to fix that, that any harm or damage that you've done in. In, you know, as a parent, in. In sort of speaking in ways that might be that you regret later, but also in yourself. Like, the way out of the shame that I felt when I was just listening to you talking is like learning that lesson as a parent, learning how to use a better way of, you know, expressing myself when somebody's whacked somebody else.

And.

And that's not okay.

Yes. And I 100% say, like, the craziest stuff to my kids all the time, too. Like, let me just get that out. It's not like even Dr. Becky does. Like, Dr. Becky does it. Cheryl does it. Like, we all do these things. Like you said, we all have triggers. We all have reactions. I think one of the things that's interesting also that we do as humans when we struggle is we focus so much on the moment instead of what comes after the moment. And we know from so much research, from psychology, and what comes after the moment has way more impact on someone than the moment itself, because we have the opportunity to change the ending of the story. Like, I think of you and all your beautiful writing. A moment is like. I don't know. It's a few sentences in a paragraph. Okay. Then there's like, all the other paragraphs in the chapter, Right? And what we do when we kind of Rehearse a narrative of self blame. What is wrong with me? I yelled at my kid, and I definitely messed up my kid forever. And I did send them to their room. Oh, my goodness. Dr. Beh is saying, send their kid to their room, and my kid's gonna go to jail and they're never gon get a college degree. Like, we, we, you know, we just. We keep going and all that happens. Then in terms of our relationship with our child is nothing new.

We're stuck. Yeah, we're stuck.

We're mired. Right? And I think this goes back to separating behavior from identity, because to me, the self repair piece is what helps me manage the shame. Shame inherently can be lowered when you separate behavior from identity, because shame is actually usually from a collapse of behavior and identity. So if I heard you saying something and I was like, oh, don't know. I did that with my kid. Oh, no, I'm a horrible parent. I sent my kid to their. Wait, wait, Becky, Becky, Becky. Self repair first. I'm a good parent who did something maybe I wish I'd do differently. Okay, Sounds pretty human. Okay, okay, now.

Ooh, ooh, ooh.

Now instead of being mired in the moment, oh, now I have energy and visibility to look at after the moment. Maybe the self repair is enough. Like, frankly, if I. I don't repair every time I, like, you know, do one thing right, I might think, like, you know what? I know what I need to do differently. But I might say, you know what? I am gonna go to my son. I'm gonna say, you know what? Totally not okay, you hit your sister. But frankly, I think you know that too. And I'm pretty sure you're not proud of that moment either. And, you know, I don't even know what was happening between you and your sister before that. And probably something that didn't feel good and probably if we figured that out together, which didn't happen to your room, I actually bet that's probably the most productive way forward. So let's get into that together because you're a good kid who is having a hard time. You know, a little bit before this, I was a good parent who yelled at you and was having a hard time. We're both good people who sometimes has a hard time. I really think we can figure this out. And now the ending of that chapter with my son. Oh, my sister always takes my blocks, and I hate that she plays at them on play dates. Whatever it is I get information, we're now connecting. We're now actually more connected. Than we were before. It's so powerful.

There's something that I've experienced and this has been true all along the way. But honestly, having teenagers now who, you know, our coming into adulthood, like I said, my son is 19, my daughter's 17. My son just graduated high school, he's heading off to college this fall, and my daughter's going into her senior year. So, you know, there are people that I can talk to on a certain level that's a little more grown up. And recently I was very frustrated with my son and he, you know, kept doing the same thing that was very upsetting and infuriating over and over again. And I lost it. I just yelled at him. I really yelled at him. And about a half hour later, I came to him and I just said, I'm so sorry, I'm so sorry. I really shouldn't have yelled at you. And I told him I lost, you know, I'm upset, I lost control of my emotions, you know, and yes, it was in response to something you did, but I shouldn't have yelled at you. And for him, there was something really interesting when I just full heartedly apologized and he said, no, mom, it's okay. And I said, it's not okay. It's not okay. And I'm really sorry. There was something about that that was interesting because it empowered him in a way and strangely made him take more agency over the thing that he was doing, you know, that was infuriating. He was like, oh, I'm sorry too. Like it brought him to a kind of awareness or consciousness or responsibility or something. I don't know the quite the word. But for me to take ownership of what I was doing wrong, allowed and encouraged him to take ownership. Does that make sense?

That makes, I mean, I think that actually that makes total sense. Even though in theory it's counterintuitive. And me too, I fall into the other camp too. My son has to know what he did and it's like, I need to get that from him. Right? But in general, we all have conflict about things. We all actually naturally usually feel multiple ways at once. So maybe in this situation your son is naturally feeling like. I mean, that was a little bit, I had a part in that. And then a little bit he's feeling my mom freaked out at me, right? It's like both things are true. Whenever we push one part of a conflict, we allow the other person to kind of say, I'm gonna externalize that part and I can just hold onto the other part. So whenever you take One part of someone's conflict for them, you know, so we go up to our kid, we're like, you know, you okay, maybe I yelled, fine, but you were really irresponsible and you were really frustrating and. Right. So now whatever part of our kid was kind of considering taking responsibility for themselves, they're like, well, now my mom owns that part. So I guess all that's left in me is you freak out over nothing. Right? To me, the classic example is also if like my husband says to me, you know, I don't really wanna spend the holidays with your parents, I'm like, you know what, I do wanna spend the holidays with my parents. But if he's like, maybe we should spend the holidays with your parents this year, I'm like, I don't wanna do that. Right. So like someone holds one side of a conflict and you're left with the other. And the truth is we want our kids to take responsibility and we of course want them to reflect on what is my role. But nobody does that when it's shoved down our throat because we immediately go to the other side.

Yeah.

So you're right. Saying to your kid, hey, there's probably more we need to talk about. This is nuanced, but this is where I wanna start. Here's my part and I'm aware of that and I want to own that and I wanted to communicate about that to you. Right. First of all, I think it's actually, it feels better to us than we realize because we are holding like the guilt and the shame around that. So the self repair frees us. But it is interesting how often, maybe not immediately, but the day later. I hear this all the time. Even I recently heard this from this family I was working with where the kids were, quote, so difficult in the morning, never wanting to put in their shoes and always running around the house. And they're like, I am repairing for my yelling, like, my four year old is a monster. My four year old is driving me crazy. But months of you need to do this weren't going anywhere. So finally they kind of tried it and they literally, I think it was like the next week they're like, my four year old. My four year old said to me, you know, I'm hard in the morning, I'm hard in the morning. Like it was freed up. So I think you're, I think it makes total sense. Cheryl.

I think that too. The piece of repair, I should say, in my teen year, in my kids teen years, there have been some real challenges and I have had to really do a deep, deep dive when it comes to parenting and learning parenting skills and thinking about the ways that I communicate with my kids and the way I listen to them. And one of the big lessons that I learned that's really connected to repair is this idea that you touched upon that I think a lot of us, when we, you know, what we carry into conflict is a sense of, like, well, who's right? And so if I apologize or take responsibility for any piece of it, I'm in some ways saying, you know, that thing you did wrong is okay. Like, this example of me and my son, this conflict we had. I mean, really just. I'm laughing when I say this, but it's true. Like, the thing that. Like, he's the one who did the thing wrong. Right. You know, that was kind of for sure. But then I did a wrong thing in response to it. And what I found is that really the way into any conversation, you know, me saying I'm sorry was not saying it's okay that you've repeatedly, you know, done the same thing. That's not okay. Right. So it's like, I'm not even talking to him really, about, you know, in my apology. It's. I'm only addressing my own behavior. I'm not validating the. The, you know, the mistake he made or the thing he did that I think is not right. Okay? And if we can let go of that binary of, like, if you say sorry, that means, you know, that. That you were the wrong party. If we let that go, what we open up the territory for is exactly what you said. First of all, somebody who you apologize to is much more likely to then take responsibility for their own actions. But also where you can get to is the place beyond the binary. The place beyond, you did the wrong thing. I did the right thing. I yelled at you because you did the wrong thing, or you yelled at me and you shouldn't have. You know, what you get to is that the middle path, the middle place where you say, well, here's this situation that's always causing us conflict. You're late every day. And that upsets me. So what's the solution to this problem? Not who's right and wrong. And I think that that's really an important piece when we think about repair, that it's not a tug of war, that it feels emotionally sometimes like the two of you are on opposite sides, but really the problem itself is somewhere beyond you that can only be solved when you can speak to each other reasonably.

Yes. You know, I think It's Esther Perel. Like, it's one of her podcast episode. It's called, like, you can be right or you can be married.

Yeah.

And I do think it's not about being right or wrong. Like, to me, the alternative is prioritizing connection. Because it's often not hearing, like, oh, you're right, I was wrong. Like, you hear that from someone, I guess it gives you a momentary gratification because you're like, oh, there. Yeah, that felt good. But that actually isn't usually what we're looking for in a relationship as much as feeling seen and right. Like, it's frustrating when someone else doesn't take kind of ownership of their behavior, because in a way, it feels like they're saying, like, this thing that feels real to you, like, isn't real. It's almost like a gaslighting. And, like, it's not like we need them to say, you're right and I'm wrong. It's just about, can we connect about these things we each notice? Can you hear me? Can I understand more? Can we build compassion and coherence and connection? You're right. So when you're the one who repairs first to me, right, right and wrong isn't part of the equation. It's saying, I am prioritizing connecting over being right.

Yeah, that is. And wow, in so many ways, that's a pretty revolutionary idea because I think that, like you said, you know, so many, so many of us, that that old way of conflict is that binary, Is that right or wrong? Is that you're being punished, Go away, you're bad. I'm good. I did the right thing. You did the wrong thing. And so to try to, like, really shed that in a way, which I honestly have been working on in my own life, like, really trying to step back from that and prioritize, you know, connection and that sense of, like, how do we solve this problem together and be on the same side.

Yeah. And I think, like, I always think about how to make deep ideas concrete. I always need that in my own life. That's my bias. But I think for anyone listening who's kind of caught in this conflict with someone, or you're like, kind of, I need that person to repair first. Or, you know, I feel like if I repair first, then I'm saying it's okay for what they did. I think, like, approaching someone from a. Like, hey, you know, I feel like we can both be in right wrong mode. It's like, who's right? Who's wrong? We have to Say what we're right about, what we're wrong about. I have a feeling that's not going to be productive, but I feel like both of us need the other person to really hear and just understand something that's important to us. Like, I probably need to understand something in you, whether or not I agree, and you probably need me to understand something. Right. Vice versa. And having a conversation with someone where the only goal is leaving the conversation, saying, I understand something about you better than I did five minutes ago, and then switching to me like, that really is that form of prioritizing connection, like, over being right?

Well, I think a huge part of repair. I mean, we've talked about that. The idea, first of taking responsibility for your actions.

But.

But I think listening is a huge part of repair. I mean, to be able to say, and I think what you just said is so key and so hard to do, to validate somebody's interpretation of events and experience, even if you yourself disagree with it. This is so exquisitely hard. Have you ever done that? Have you ever done that where you have to say to somebody, I understand that you interpreted it this way, that you feel this way, and, you know, to sit in that acknowledgment, even though your interpretation is the opposite thing.

You know, I'm thinking about a moment with one of my kids where they were really hurt that I shared something that they shared with me with someone. And it kind of came back. And it's really interesting, as I reflect on that, when you ask me that, because we were kind of caught in this, like, bad way for a little bit. But, Cheryl, I feel like it goes back to actually what we were talking about before that on some level, I was equating this moment with, like, I'm a horrible mom. Like, you know, and I had to so defend myself from that that I couldn't really listen to him. I just kept saying, like, but here's the reason why. And this was in your interest. And I had to prove I was listening to prove. And you're talking about. We're talking about listening to understand. And, you know, it was interesting. I was talking now with one of my friends, and she was like, aren't you the one who always talks about, like, separating, like, a behavior from, like, your identity? Like, you're. You're a good mom. That at least for him, who knows? Doesn't even matter if it's true. Who messed up? Like, you really messed up, at least that, you know, for him, right? And, like, it's funny, one of the things that really helped me really listen to him is, like, I really was saying to myself, in part over and over, like, I'm a good parent with a kid who's really upset. I'm a good parent with a kid who's really upset. And I do think that that set the stage for me to be able to be able to listen to him. And just, like, I had a couple lines just, like, on hand. I was like, I'm gonna say nothing, but these lines. Tell me more. I was just like, I hear you, because it is so easy to get triggered into. But, you know, whatever the thing. And I think that's, like, when you ask me that, like, I think about how unable I was able I was to do that. For a couple days, I was just. We were in so much conflict. But then I feel like reminding myself again, like, I'm not alone. I'm not a horrible mom who messed up her kid forever. Like, I'm a good parent with a kid who's upset with me. And, like, my goal is listening to understand, not prove, help this little by little, have that conversation.

Absolutely. And I think the times that I've felt really resistant to that kind of listening. It's exactly what you said. You. You feel defensive because you feel like in some ways, it's an attack on you as a parent. And I mean, the minute we get into any kind of defensive crouch, the minute we. We lose ground, like, we lose that connection. And also, I think that it's a very painful position to be in, to have to feel like you, you know, you want to say to your. Your child, like, but I'm a good mom.

Right.

You know, And I know I've felt that way before. And I think, too, when. When I can let that go and say, I hear you. And also stop explaining your own motivations, because it's interesting, the situation I'm thinking about that I had a conversation with my daughter last week. I repeatedly defended myself. You know, this is why I did that. This is why, you know, and she wasn't interested in learning about my motivations. She was interested in me acknowledging her feelings about something I did. And it hurt to just acknowledge it and say. And say, I hear you, because I did feel like I also had a. You know, I had a. I had a position worth defending, you know, and so. But once you let that go, once you can kind of take the deep breaths and realize that this is one moment in your relationship that actually, if you can be less defensive and just listen, that ultimately that will be extremely restorative it will repair something because the child feels heard. And you know, that is the beginning of any kind of connection. We disconnect when we feel like we are not heard or acknowledged or seen totally.

And I think in that gap, I think one of the reasons we want to really articulate our motivation to our kid or to anyone in a conflict, we are on some level asking them to do the work we need to lay the foundation for ourselves or looking for them. But here's why I did that, to say, oh, you're a good person. Okay, now we'll hear like. And if we're able to say to ourselves before or get a friend, talk about removing the aloneness, be like, I kind of need you to say to me before my conversation with my husband, my kid, hey, you're a good mom. Good moms. Good moms mess up. Good moms aren't perfect. Good moms listen to when their kids are upset at them. You're a good mom who is having a hard time. And the more I'm able to say that to myself, of course it would still feel nice to hear it from my kid, but I actually don't need it. In the same way, I'm not as desperate for it. And so I don't feel the need to, quote, defend as much because I don't have as much I need to defend because I've already kind of shored that up at least a little bit in myself. And now, like, is it now we can, like, now we can listen. All right, if you're feeling like that was just not enough, Cheryl Strayed and I need more. Well, I feel like that as well. And guess what? We don't have to wait too long because next week Cheryl will be back answering the questions that came directly from you. And if you want to learn more about referral, please check out my new TED Talk. It's available this week starting September 13th at 11am@ted.com. see you next week. Thanks for listening. To share a story or ask me a question, go to goodinside.com podcast. You could also write me@podcastoodinside.com Parenting is the hardest and most important important job in the world and parents deserve resources and support so they feel empowered, confident and connected. I'm so excited to share Good Inside Membership, the first platform that brings together content and experts you trust with a global community of like valued parents. It's totally game changing. Good inside with Dr. Becky is produced by Jessie Baker and Eric Newsome at Magnificent Noise. Our production staff includes Sabrina Farhee Julia Natt and Kristin Muller. I would also like to thank Eric Kobelsky, Mary Panico and the rest of the good inside team. And one last thing before I let you go. Let's end by placing our hands on our hearts and reminding ourselves. Even as I struggle and even as I have a hard time on the outside, I remain good inside.