Refuse to Lower Your Standards | Robert Ponton - C.R. Jackson

Autonomous equipment is going to be more relevant in the paving industry very quickly.

Robert and his team are right now in the middle of one of the largest projects in South Carolina history.

Some quick math and we knew that it was going to be over $300 million in size, and we had previously not done anything anywhere near that size. While it was interesting to us, the scale of it was also a concern to us.

11 miles of roadway, like full reconstruction and widening, like there's going to be problems.

Yeah, definitely.

My name's Tristan Wilson. Welcome to The Edge Podcast. I am so excited to have my guest today, who is Robert Ponder. Robert is the CEO of C.R. Jackson and Satterfield Construction, one of two of South Carolina's leading asphalt paving and roadway construction companies. CR Jackson's been building the roads in the Carolinas since 1972 and has asphalt plants across the state from Columbia to Greenwood to the coast. And Robert spent his whole career in the industry before taking the helm at CR Jackson. He came up through Sloan Construction, Barrett Paving, Reeves Construction, and the Coloss Group. So he's seen really every side of this business, estimating it, building it, you know, making sure that people are working profitably and also safely, and then holding the line on quality as well. And Robert and his team are right now in the middle of one of the largest projects in South Carolina history, the I-26 widening project. And I actually had the opportunity to spend some time with Robert on that project. So we're going to talk about that work. And what I want, like most, but what I really want to most get into today is like the people side., you know, of, of it all and how you build a culture that lasts and really take care of the folks, uh, doing the work. So, uh, Robert, welcome to this show.

Yeah, Tristan, afternoon, and thanks for having me. Uh, looking, uh, looking forward to catching up here.

So one thing I wanted to just kind of start with was you, you've worked, uh, you know, across some of the, the biggest names in the Southeast, you know, before, um, before Sierra Jackson. If you could maybe just Walk us through that path. Like, what, what pulled you into, into this industry?

Yeah, so, uh, it, uh, it actually started a long time ago now, uh, a little bit over 30 years in the business. So, uh, the decades are starting to stack up a bit. But, um, when I went to school at East Carolina University for, uh, construction management in, um, in eastern North Carolina, getting out of school Um, that program, like many construction management programs, are kind of geared towards building vertical construction. And, uh, I thought that that was going to be my path, honestly, uh, as I was getting out of school and, and interviewing. But, uh, I was also interested in the, in the infrastructure side. I had done, uh, quite a bit of infrastructure work in the summers while I was in school. Both on the utility side and the bridge side. And so I knew I liked that too. So I was interviewing in both segments, and, uh, I got an offer from the Anello Altier Company in Raleigh, North Carolina, and it was, uh, the best offer actually. And I liked, uh, I like yellow iron and, and, uh, uh, big, uh, uh, big equipment. And I, and I decided to take the offer and, uh, and give it a shot and Of course, from there I really never looked back. I mean, I, it was never a question about whether I liked this industry or not. I always did, but that was really the catalyst for me to, uh, kind of, uh, put my feet on the ground and, and, uh, take it from there. So that's where I started and it was in the roadwork business, uh, uh, asphalt paving, grading, storm drain. And, uh, they put me out on two, uh, large interstate projects that we had at the time in Durham, North Carolina. Uh, and, uh, that's where I started and, uh, uh, got some great experience in that process. Was on those projects for a few years, and then, um, at some point that led me into some estimating. Uh, I think about 3 or 4 years in, I started working on some estimating as those projects were wrapping up. Uh, we were looking for other work, um,, I got a chance to, uh, sit in with the estimators and start working on some private jobs and actually some other public jobs at the same time. Uh, and then start to manage some of that work too. So that kind of, uh, opened my eyes to other aspects of the business, um, and the estimating side. And, and, uh, and again, I, this, this is all early in, in, in the career, right? So you're doing a lot of grunt work and you're learning the ropes and and learning the basics. But, uh, that led to some other opportunities, you know, just working hard and keeping my, uh, uh, uh, asking a lot of questions, uh, interested in learning. That led to some other opportunities. And during that time, uh, it was— that was in— I started with Nello Oil Tier Company in 1995, and in 1998, uh, Coloss actually bought that company along with several other companies in the US at the same time. It was a, a big acquisition. And I stayed on through that for another year or so. And then they asked me to relocate down to Greenville, South Carolina to Sloan Construction. And I did that and I was estimating mostly in that area. Same type of business, roadwork as particularly asphalt paving in that particular business. But estimating was my primary focus there. And then that led to some other opportunities in project management. And the next thing I know, about 4 years later, I get a request to move to Winston-Salem to look over one of our small businesses up there. Uh, at the time, uh, it was called Larco Construction. So, uh, packed up the family and we moved to Winston-Salem. Uh, or actually at that time was just me and my wife. Uh, the family was, uh, the two boys were born in, uh, Winston-Salem, so we started our family there. But we moved to Winston and we lived there for about 7 years. And at that point I started to get a taste for actually managing, uh an operation, right? Not just estimating, not just a project, uh, uh, not just the support roles, but actually having the responsibility to manage an entire operating business on a small scale.

So, uh, what would you say, like, in going through that process, were the— what are the differences between, like, the job management versus, like, more of running like a business, uh, and—

well, it's, it's, it's the people part of it, right? I mean, you start to move away from the task-oriented activities and, and you actually have to, um, work with a team, uh, and, and rely on people to do their part, uh, manage different teams, uh, uh, manage, uh, teams with different strengths, different capabilities. I mean, you have to learn how to do all those things, right? Uh, because what, what we do, particularly in the, in the pavement business, is it's, it's a, it's a, it's an orchestra, um, uh, every day that you're coordinating, uh, for success, right? I mean, you've got a, uh, you've got, uh, uh, stockpile, you've got plant manufacturing, you've got transportation, you've got equipment, you've got crews. I mean, there's, and there's a long list of other things that you have to have go right every day to be successful. So that's a big transition when you start to move from that task-oriented, uh, I'm going to get my estimate done, my bid done, to now I'm responsible for not only getting those bids done but also making sure we're successful today and that our teams have what they need to be successful every day, not just today but tomorrow and next week and, and, and, and the years to come. So that's a big, big transition for a young manager.

So 100%, 100%. I kind of remember that, like, that was actually hard for me. I think when I, uh, cause I kind of went, you know, I, I started my career out working on a big interstate job as well. And then, you know, eventually I was like running, you know, projects as a PM estimator and then taking that next step into like, um, Really being able to like, in addition, like share with other project managers too, I think is another thing that's really important. Because like with you guys, like one of your crews, I mean, you know, you guys could touch 3, 4 jobs in a week and, and, and that, that job that you're going to may be for a whole nother, you know, management team. Exactly. Figuring out how to like, how to, how to be a team player and sacrifice a little bit is something that I really struggled with when I was like, you know, especially earlier in my career, I was like, whoa, wait. Thinking my job was always the most, you know, important one. And thankfully I had some good mentors who were kind of like, um, your job's important, but, but, but the overall good of, of the, the team is, is more important than your one job.

Yeah.

And yeah, it was pretty humbling, but also, um, a good learning experience, you know, for me.

Yeah, definitely. And, and you mentioned mentors, uh, in that, uh, in your remarks there. And I think that's a critical, it's a critical aspect to any career, particularly as a young leader, uh, people that you can look up to, that you can rely on, that are willing to share their, their knowledge. And I was fortunate enough to have several, still have several for that matter. But, but, um, that's a, that's a big deal. Those, those, those folks that have been doing it a while that can share the knowledge and and sometimes steer you when you're young in the right direction, you know, that's an invaluable resource. And I was fortunate enough to have that at that time because I needed it. You know, there was a lot I didn't know. I mean, I was barely 30 years old and responsible for, at that time, 3 asphalt plants and multiple crews and I don't even remember now how many employees we had. It was a small business in, in, in today's terms, but, but there again, it was a business, right? And a lot of people were counting on me, um, to, uh, make good decisions. So, so, so, so you were in Winston, you said you were there for, for, for a few years, and then, um, so we were in Winston for 7 years and, um, and, uh, again, got a call for an opportunity, this time up in New York. Uh, so I, uh, uh, packed up the family and we moved to, uh, Syracuse, New York. And, uh, and all of this was still with Colas, within the Colas Group. Uh, and, uh, spent the next, uh, 3 years, uh, a little bit over 3 years, uh, responsible for a division of work there, uh, not only in New York but down in Pennsylvania as well. And, uh, you know, started to get a taste of running multiple business units there, not just one but multiple business units, and, and learning, uh, learning the ropes in a new area. Uh, we also had, uh, a quarry in, in that, in that market, so that was, uh, that was some activity that I had not had, uh, experience in previously, so that was a new, uh a new avenue for me to learn and, and, uh, and enjoyed that very much. Very successful business up there and a lot of good folks. So, um, and then, uh, I guess it was about 3 years later, a little bit over 3 years, I got a call, uh, that, uh, we were having a leadership change down in, uh, the South and, uh They asked me to come back to South Carolina and lead the Reeves Construction business, or at that time it was known as Sloan Construction. Actually, it was both of those at the time, Sloan in South Carolina and Reeves in Georgia. And now I think they've combined everything into under one brand as Reeves. But anyway, I came back down and, uh, uh, uh, Served in the president's role there, uh, for a number of years. And then, uh, uh, also served as an executive vice president for the Southeast for Colas, uh, for the US, and managed, uh, all of our business from, uh, Virginia down to, uh, North Florida and out to Missouri and Arkansas. So did that for a number of years. In total, I was with, uh, the Colas Group for, uh, 24 years. I think it's, um, the number. And, um, and then decided to, uh, step out, uh, took a few, uh, few months off and, uh, connected with the Jackson family, which I had known Richard for, for many years, uh, from, uh, the industry in South Carolina. And, uh, uh, he introduced me to Stephen and Elizabeth, uh, his, uh, his children. And, um, uh, who are actively, uh, uh, leading the business now. And, uh, connected with the two of them, and we had some great conversations and joined the team. And, uh, I'm in my fourth year with them now and, uh, really enjoying it. So, um, yeah, it's been, um, you know, when I think back about the, uh, last, uh, 30 years or so It's been a good run, and I've had a, uh, an opportunity to do some amazing things, see some amazing things, and, um, and have, uh, some amazing experiences. So I'm just, I'm just thankful for it, honestly.

So excellent. Well, I appreciate, I appreciate you sharing that. Um, so I guess, so, so you come to, you come to CR Jackson, uh, and, and, and, and Satterfield. Um, You, you've, you've been there maybe a couple of years and this big job.

Yeah.

Huge opportunity, uh, comes out and, and you, you had not been in, in the role for, for, for that long. So a really massive job comes out that's kind of in the home territory, but like it's bigger than any job that the company's ever done previously. Take me through the process of what that looked like from, you know, from the beginning.

So, uh, the job, uh, the job advertises, and it's a section of I-26, uh, just to the south of Columbia here, about 11 miles. And the job advertised, and of course it's right in our wheelhouse, it's got 630,000 tons of hot mix on it. So, so this— while it was interesting to us, the scale of it was also a concern to us, right? I mean, some quick math and we knew that it was going to be over 300 million, uh, in size. And, and we had previously not done anything anywhere near that size, even though we had done plenty of big work. So, uh, the The way it started was just around some simple conversations, just like we're having right here, uh, that, you know, looking at the quantities, uh, and, you know, we can do these, everything that we see here, um, it's just on a, a, a large volume basis. There's nothing overly complex about this project. And, um, you know, it could present some opportunities. And so we had 3, 4, 5, 6 of those conversations. And, you know, and some of those questions that were kicked around the table, well, do we really have the resources, uh, and the management team to, to tackle something like this? And as we, as we kept on having those conversations, and this happened over a, a week, you know, period, 5 to 10 days total, because obviously you've got a deadline if you're gonna submit a bid. So we kept answering the questions as, yeah, I think we can, I think we can actually cover those gaps or fit those, or answer those questions in a manner that indicates we might be able to tackle this thing. So in that process, because you can imagine for me, I'm still getting to know the organization at that time. And we have some, we have tremendous people here. So, so I already knew that that was easy to see right out of the gate and strong leadership. So I knew that, that, that, that was a positive check mark for us. But nevertheless, you're talking about a job that's over $300 million and, and that presents a significant amount of risk for the company, or it could. So we established, or we came up with. A list basically of, I think it was 15, 14 or 15, what we call critical criteria. And I put it together on one page and we sat down together as an executive team and basically said, we have to be able to respond to each one of these questions with a yes or an appropriate answer. And if, if at any time, even right up until we bid, submit the bid, one of these questions cannot be answered or it can't be answered appropriately, then we have to pull the plug on this and we will not submit. And we actually sat down with our team and walked through that plan to make sure that everybody understood that, that even though it was going to be a heck of a lot of work. That we had to make sure that we stayed true to the mission, if you will, and, and the company's mission. And, uh, at no time would we, we take undue risk, uh, for the company. So, or not, or risk that we couldn't manage. So, so that's where it really started, was with that, those, those simple conversations and that list.

And, and, and without not asking for any, you know, trade secrets or anything here, but, but generally speaking, like, what, what are, what are When you look at a job like that, what are some of the things that you want to try to make sure that like you get answered satisfactorily?

Yeah. So, uh, number one is the management team, right? So do you have, do we have the management team that can actually, um, uh, look over this project at a, at a, at a level that's appropriate for the size of it. And, and that doesn't mean that you have to have every, every box filled., or every seat filled, but you've gotta have the critical seats filled and, and, and, and, and then decide if you can, you know, the, the, you may be able to fill in with some project engineers or things like that that you might not have on staff at the time. And that happened to be the case for us actually. Um, and then right behind that is, have you got the, uh, the, uh, field expertise to actually perform the work? Those are interchangeable, honestly. I mean, they come together. It's not one before the other, but those are the first two items on the list and those had to be answered appropriately. And then there's questions about risk. Can we, without going into too much detail, can we appropriately Manage the risk on the job, spread the risk. You know, what work are we taking? What subcontractors are going to be working? What other ways can you use to mitigate risk? So those are all, well, those were all on the list among several others.

With subcontractors and like, and partners on the job, like people that you're going to team up with, could you talk a little bit about that? What was your kind of thought process there?

Yeah, so they were— that, that actually was on the list too as part of the risk analysis. And, uh, on a job like this where performance, uh, is so critical and you've got a lot at stake for non-performance, right? Uh, you've got to have a subcontract team that you really can count on. So, uh, that was very, very important to us. We went through a vetting process. We, of course, we know all the subcontractors in the area, but, but, uh, we, we, we did not, we did not choose solely on price. We choose, we, we, we came up with a matrix between price and performance and let that determine the best value for the subcontractor we decided to use. And, and that's how we chose our, our, uh, our sub team, uh, to make sure that we could maintain schedule.

So any other kind of like, as you think through maybe some of the other risks, so we talked a little bit about the, the pride, the management team, talked about having, you know, the, the right, the right folks out, you know, in the field, um, subcontractors. What are, what are some kind of other things?

Well, it's really a long list, Tristan, but one that comes to my mind, uh, was the, uh, just our cost tracking and, and, and analysis tools. We, we, we knew that we, we had already, we were already doing a pretty good job. Uh, we had all the puzzle pieces in place. Teams knew what they needed to do, but we weren't always doing it well. So we knew that on this project we needed that to be streamlined, efficient, and it had to be accurate, right? So we put a— we got our team together, invested in some software to improve our position on that, enhance what we already had. And we started that process on that job and we used that as a catalyst to enhance our process across the entire company, not just within that project. So it really, it would, the job itself has been transformational for us because it's helped us in so many other areas of the business. I mean, I can't tell you how many. One of those is the processes that I was just referring to. Second one would be, off the top of my head, would be development, future development for young leaders. We actually identified that as a goal immediately once we had secured the project, that we wanted to bring in project engineers that we could train, develop, and turn into future leaders for us. When the project was over. So, and that's been a wonderful experience for us. We got a group of young individuals out there that are doing a fabulous job for us and we're excited to have them. And so that's been intentional, very intentional. So that was one we've, in terms of managing risk, well, now that we have the project, we've been very intentional about being engaged. We have an executive, group that meets out on the job every other Monday and we talk about our—

That's twice per month. Your team is physically going on the job.

That's correct. Yeah. We meet out there every other Monday and we talk through the challenges that the team's having. And our role is to assist them with removing roadblocks, helping them support the project, get what they need to be successful. Sometimes we're debating the schedule a little bit, thinking about new ways to approach things, but it's been a solid exercise for us, for the entire team. Now, we're fortunate in that the job is just a few miles down the road, so we can be very engaged in it., as an executive team and stay close to it. But we've got a, we've got a, a great team out there. They're doing a great job for us. We're, we're really proud of them.

Excellent. What have been the biggest, like, surprises, would you say, on, on the job? Like, uh, you know, maybe things that have happened that you didn't, um, maybe that you didn't expect, um, or, or that have been, um, um, new or, or, or, um, as, as kind of going through that process?

I, I would say that, uh, there's not been any major surprises, Tristan. I, I think that, that they're, they're mostly, they're things that we anticipated at some level. Uh, but I, I think the thing that I would say is that there were some aspects of the project that we thought in the bid process that would go one way and go very well. And those did not turn out as we expected. And on the other hand, there was other things in the project that we thought would go a different way and, and be very, or, or would not be very successful or very, or a little bit more challenging, and they've gone very, very well. So there's, you know, and, and, and you see this in any, any project, right? It's give and take. Some items are gonna do a little better than others. Uh, but on, on a project, uh, with this scale, you, you've gotta be flexible enough to move. If you're not able to get an answer, uh, due to a design issue or something like that for a wall, you've gotta be flexible enough. And we've got the flexibility with the size of the project to move elsewhere and keep the, keep the project moving. And sometimes those things impact an item, uh, negatively, and sometimes they've impacted them positively. But the net is, is, has been. Has been great for us. But still, some of those things, you know, you see it, you've got an opportunity over 60 or 90 days to put a bid together and you see it one way. And when you get out there on the job, that turns out to be totally different. So you gotta manage through that. And that's part of what we do is solve problems every day. So it's really part of the challenge of this industry or the What, what I enjoy, one of the things that I enjoy about it is just solving the, the challenges that come up on these jobs. It's, uh, very, very interesting.

It's professional, professional problem solving.

Uh, exactly, exactly.

So, um, I wanted to ask you about like the relationship with the owner because, I mean, you guys have been working for SC, you know, SCDOT, and I'm sure many of the, you know, other counties and cities and agencies and private developers. I mean, you guys very well established in South, South Carolina, high, high quality, high safety. I mean, you know, professionally managed and, you know, and run company with a longstanding history there. When you get on these big jobs, you know, from the little bit of time, you know, that I've, that I've spent around some of them, it's managing the relationship with the owner is really, really, really important, especially on a big job where You know, people get tired. You're working days, you're working nights. Like there's, there are a lot of problems that are going to come up when you're— how many miles of roadway is it roughly?

It's, uh, 11, 11 miles.

11 miles of roadway, like full reconstruction and widening. Like stuff's going to come up. There's going to be problems.

Yes, definitely.

How do you think about like managing that relationship, you know, um, with the owner on, on, on a project of, of this scale?

Yeah, well, uh, so first of all, our, our teams that have been here long before I, uh, joined the team, uh, I'm thinking specifically about our, our, our president, uh, here at Sierra Jackson. And the same goes for Satterfield, by the way. But, uh, those guys and their teams have great relationships with the DOT for our day-in and day-out business and When you translate that into a job of this size, I mean, it's critical to have that ability to have candid conversations with the owner. It is a trust level that comes along with that, right? Because the way we run our business, we're honest, we're straightforward, but we want to do what what we say or what, and we want to own our mistakes if we have those. So we believe that those types of things help create a stronger relationship with the owner or any owner that we're working for. So we get into a job like I-26 here and it's a little bit more complex on this particular job because we also have a CEI firm that we're working with who represents the owner. So we have a relationship there and then we also, uh, uh, meet with the owner because this is a high-profile project. So we meet with the owner on a, uh, uh, a quarterly basis and, uh, talk about the, the, the broader picture of the job and if there's any, any bigger issues to address. But that, that's where those relationships are important, right? I mean, we have a high trust level with the folks that we're sitting across the table from. That they're going to make good decisions for the taxpayers and for the project. You think, we hope that they had a strong trust in us that we're going to do the right thing for the department. So that's the way we run the business. That's the way we've run the job, both for the CEI and for the owner. And certainly we have, sometimes we've got some tough conversations to have, We don't always agree on everything, but I think when both parties are working towards advancing the project for successful completion, we get to where we need to be for both DOT and for us.

So. Great. Yeah, that's great. When I visited the trailer, the construction trailer and the team, when you and I were on site, I couldn't help but notice next to the project manager's door, there was a few slogans and a few phrases. And I remember one of them was basically, "Refuse to lower your standards because someone else won't raise theirs." And then there was a few more about like, The things that are in your control, like who you talk to, the information you consume, the food you eat. Um, and I just, just curious, like, uh, uh, how, how did those things, uh, end up on, on the trailer wall and how do you think that, you know, impacts the, the, the culture, uh, and, and, and the team's, uh, kind of mentality on, on the job?

Yeah. Well, I, I, I specifically, uh, that first of all, that project team, right? That's all, uh, that's their, uh, world down there and and what you saw down there is a product of their, uh, their team, uh, and their leadership, uh, right? And, and that's coming from, uh, their leaders, uh, specifically. I, I think that specific— those quotes specifically came from Eric Moody down there. And, uh, uh, you know, Eric's a former baseball player, uh, so he, he understands the team environment. And, uh, I think he— I know he's doing a He does a good, a wonderful job keeping those folks motivated and thinking about the broader picture, not just the fires of the day. And look, when you're on a project like that, it's easy to get caught up in the battle of the day or the battle of the week and lose sight of the longer-term goals a little bit, right? It's easy to get sidetracked off of that. He's doing a fabulous job and it's not just him. He's got a big team around him that is helping him get there and they're doing a wonderful job doing that. And that's one of the exciting things for us is we get to see that in action every other Monday when we're down there and participate in it, right? Because even the best team, when you're going through a tough time in a project, a long-term project like that, which that one is covering 4 construction seasons. Uh, there's some, there's some tough days, you know, not every day is good. And, uh, we get to participate in that too, right, as a, as an executive group when we're there. So it's, uh, it's exciting to be a part of that. And that type of thing is, is just a strong motivator for the team, a strong reminder to, uh, keep your eye on the goals.

Yeah, absolutely. And I think, um, I really like the, uh, the, just the, the, the management engagement in the job is so, so, so critical. Because if, you know, as, um, if, if you're the project manager on one of those jobs, it can be— and, or just on the project management team, you know, field engineer, superintendent— like, it can be pretty lonely when you're a little way, little ways away, you know, from, from, from, from the home office. And, uh, you got this, you got this tiger by the tail. And one item, one small thing can cause big problems for the company. And I think feeling supported and getting the resources that are needed in order to make the job succeed is something that's so critical. Like I remember I was building, it wasn't a $400 million job, but it was about a $40 million job project manager for a very challenging owner. And on a really challenging job with a lot of utilities and relocations and delays. And it was just a tough job. And, you know, we were able to fortunately work together and do it. You know, it ended up being a really successful project, but I didn't really have the right people on the job for a period of it, especially out in the field. We just didn't, we hadn't found the right, we had great people, amazing people in the field, but we hadn't found the right mix of chemistry in the field yet. And really that like, That's that field kind of superintendent, which we had a couple of months job. And, uh, and I got, I got, you know, the call that we're sending Steve and Steve was Steve the day that he got there, the job just like went on this trajectory where it was kind of going like this. It just went like that. And we would have never gotten there without, of course, the help of all the other folks in the field, but he, he was really kind of the catalyst that really helped us move in the right, in the right direction. And part of how that happened was. Sitting in those meetings that you're talking about every 2 weeks and them kind of watching us struggle a little bit, the, you know, the leaders of the company and saying, we gotta, we gotta, we gotta get, we gotta get the right cavalry over here to help this team win.

Yeah. I think that cadence has worked really, really well. And, uh, and we're fortunate to be able to maintain it. Now there's probably a day or 2, if you ask that team, they might feel like it was, it's a little more, um, it's a little overly supportive. Um, But, uh, but I think, I think all in all though, we're, we're, uh, uh, we're all in a good spot and thankful we've got the opportunity to, to, to, to be that engaged with it.

So, yeah, I, uh, I, uh, I was, we were working for Fluor on that job and they had a great old civil engineer named Bill, you know, named Bill Garrett. And, uh, after the executive team, you know, uh, left, left one day, you know, uh, he's, uh, He said, uh, he said, how was the, how was the, how was the seagulls? And I said, what are the, what are the seagulls? And he said, you know, the seagulls, you know, they, they fly in there, they crap on everything and then, and then they leave. And he was of course half kidding. Uh, but, uh, yeah, it was really great to have, have that support, you know, uh, on the job. So while that job's going on, you also got a ton of other stuff going on, you know, within, within the company. So you've got this whole other, you know, separate group. How do you kind of manage balancing that, like making sure that the core, you know, business, the kind of, you know, that's going on, that's going on alongside the large job is also getting the attention and everything that it needs?

Yeah, well, I'm very fortunate because we have two very solid presidents that run one at C.R. Jackson, Benji Vinson, and one at Satterfield, Gene Sarton. And those guys are extremely capable individuals and do a fabulous job running their business. So they don't need me to assist with the daily operations. They've got that under control. So what I do, and I'm actually used to this from my time with Kolos, where you've got to manage multiple entities instead of just one. Uh, but I look at my role for them as a, as a support to them really, uh, and, and, and focusing on specifically things that are going to be impacting the business 3, 5, 10 years out, uh, the strategic items, right? That's, that's where I'm working with those guys to, to, and the family, uh, for that matter, um, Steve and Elizabeth, Richard, um, uh, that's part of my role too, is to kind of bridge the gap between ownership and, and, and operation, operational, uh, the business units. And, uh, a big part of that is strategic planning and thinking about where we want to be in 3, 4, 5 years and, and even beyond that. So that's, that's where my role comes in. And, and, and we sit down, we do a strategic planning exercise, uh, once a year and an update multiple times a year with the executive team and, and really talk about, uh, the, the, the big initiatives that we're trying to achieve. How do we implement those? And, and, and, and that's where I'm spending a lot of my time, is focusing on, uh, making sure that we stay on track with those things. Because there again, uh, like, like the, uh, like I was mentioning on I-26, when you start thinking about a, a 5-year strategic plan or even a 3-year strategic plan and you set out an initiative, well, it's pretty easy to get off track of that, uh, over time because it's, it's, it's got such a long lead time, right? So, uh, one of the big parts of my role is, is really helping us work through those things and keeping us on, on track.

So, yeah. Could you, um, you know, as, uh, I'd love to hear a little bit more on, on, on the family side because I think that we have a lot of listeners who work in family businesses and work, you know, sometimes they work for family members who are, you know, part of the ownership team and sometimes they have them report to them. And I've kind of been on, you know, a few different sides of this. Myself, and I know it can be like a delicate balance and kind of a challenging dance at times. So I'm just kind of curious, like, how do you think about that? Maybe what advice would you give to other folks who are non-family members working in a family business? Yeah.

Well, I, I, so I think for us it, it, it's, it's worked out, uh, uh, that we kind of, we, we kind of operate as a team. And when I say team, I'm, I'm, I'm talking about myself, uh, and then Stephen and Elizabeth as it relates to the construction businesses. They, they have some other businesses within the enterprise, but, but my focus is on the construction activity. And I think we, we really kind of tackle that as a, as a team. Uh, they're actively engaged in the business working every day. Uh, so I, Steven's office is right next door to mine. I see Elizabeth multiple times a day. We, we talk every day. Uh, so, uh, Elizabeth is very heavily focused on the culture side of our business and, and, and the people side. Uh, Steven, relationships, uh, uh, board work, uh, uh,, and, and also managing some of this, uh, the, uh, uh, property activity that we have within the business too. So, so we've kind of each have got our strengths and, and our focus areas and, and we talk weekly. Uh, so what I would say is in terms of advice is communication is, is, is, is critical. Uh, you know, that this is all about leadership at this level and particularly when, uh, in my opinion, uh, when you're a private owner and you're asking, uh, people to come in and run large aspects of your business, trust is, uh, trust is a key element, right? I mean, that has to be the foundation, uh, uh, and that goes both ways. So I, I feel like that we have a, a deep sense of trust among, uh, the three of us, and, and that also extends into the presidents that I mentioned, uh, a few minutes ago. So I feel like that the best way that I can describe our situation is, is that we, we really operate as a team together and, and each one of us has different strengths and focus areas. And, and, and, uh, and, and one of the things that I can bring to the table is experience from elsewhere, uh, that, uh, uh, uh, Stephen and Elizabeth haven't had a, uh, really an opportunity to see, uh, because they've grown up in the family business, right? So So it's sometimes it's hard to see what else is going on out in other areas of the industry if you've not experienced that. So again, we try to capitalize on each other's strengths, I would say. But in terms of advice, I think communication is critical. And that communication I think has to include some discussion about You know, what is the owner's goal for the business or the portfolio of businesses? What are they trying to achieve? Not just tomorrow or this year, but what do they really want to, you know, what do they really want to do over the next 3, 5 years and beyond? And that's different for each family business, right? I mean, I think there's a lot of factors that could impact that. And as you well know, and it changes or it could change over time, but I think The number one thing I could say is, is trust and communication. It's got to be, uh, uh, it's gotta be high trust and it's gotta be high level communication.

Great. I appreciate you sharing that. Cause I think it's, you know, there's, I know in my experience, I think we tried and, you know, cause I of course worked in a, you know, in a family, family paving business, family, you know, paving and, and construction, uh, and, you know, and, and materials company. And I think we worked really hard like on trying to make it work, you know, like with the family and with the business and it took a lot of effort and it was like, although things, you know, we eventually sold the company, which was never really like our goal. That was never really what we wanted to do. And it was mostly, you know, kind of for like family reasons that we did that. You know, the business was performing well. It just takes a lot, it takes a lot of effort and it takes a lot of, to your point, Communication and, you know, and trust. But I will tell you that like, I had a lot of great, like, there were a lot of great, you know, managers and sometimes field, you know, folks from the field that were very helpful, you know, with that process that could kind of toe the line between like, they understood that there's like governance and then there's like management. And I think one of the things that can get blurry is sometimes if, family members, if there's not a clear line and a clear delineation and setting like, okay, this is management, this is governance, and these are the things that we're going to be involved in and these are the things that we're going to say, you got that.

Yeah. And particularly in a case where you've got owners that are engaged in the activities. So it's easy, it's really complex for the owner, right? Because they've got to switch back and forth sometimes between potentially management of the activity or the business, uh, versus, uh, ownership and governance. And those are, uh, to your point, two distinctly different activities in an organization, in any organization. So you're right, that is a, uh, that is an important differentiator.

Well, that's great. I'm, I'm, uh, I'm— you guys are, you guys are, um, doing a great job with it. So it's awesome. I, I applaud you all. For the work that you're doing there. Well, let's maybe, I want to just shift gears a little bit and talk about two things, three things. So the first one is getting out into the field, especially as a manager, you know, and obviously you're all the way up at the top now, but I'm sure as you learn, you know, throughout your career, Um, the importance of like spending time like physically in the field. Um, so I just kind of wanted to one, get like, get your thoughts on that and find out from you, like how much time do you spend in the field and how do you prioritize that? Um, you know, um, with all the other stuff that's going on.

Yeah. Well, the first, the, the, the short answer to your question is not enough time. And, uh, you know, most, most leaders, if you ask them Uh, they're gonna give you the same answer, and they're also gonna tell you that that's the part of the business or the part of the activity or the job that they enjoy the most. And, and that is true. I mean, when I, when I'm out in the field, I enjoy that, uh, uh, as much as anything else I, I do in the, in the, in the business. Uh, it's also the hardest thing to maintain because, uh, when you've got all of the demands and the, uh, pressure and, and, and request of your time, first thing that the easiest thing to change or to give up is that time in the field. So, you know, I'm just like most other leaders. I need to do better at it, and I need to constantly push myself to get out. And I do, you know, I remind myself, but it is, it is definitely a hard task to maintain. Now, that being said, I get out, you know, I, I, I make it a point to do that, make sure we get out to our offices. Talked about going out to our Laura's job, uh, every other, uh, uh, Monday. Uh, I was just down in our Augusta operation yesterday and visited a couple of crews, uh, uh, while I was there. And, uh, you know, you just can't do enough of that because that's where the pulse of your business is at. Uh, and there's, uh, there's other ways to, to do that. I mean, what you're really, you're, you're trying, in my opinion, you're trying to get a sense of the work and how the work is going. Uh, and that's an important aspect of what you're doing when you go. But more importantly, you're, you're trying to get connect, stay connected with your people, right? And that, that's, that's, that's, uh, that's the number one reason that you should be going out. And so, uh, what I found is, is, uh, and what I try to do, we, we do, uh, a couple weeks ago we, uh, had a, uh, food truck out here in the, in the yard at the shop for all of our night crews that are in the local area. We've got 4 or 5 crews running nights right now, just out of our Columbia office area. So we, this is an example. We had a food truck out here at 5:00 PM., so they all could get some dinner before they, uh, started their shift. And that's a great time to get out there and see people and, and, and have a chance to talk to them, uh, you know, when we do things like that. So, uh, I try to take advantage of those activities and we do a fair amount of those, uh, where we're bringing people together, uh, to try to, uh, uh, make sure you're, you're, you're talking to the folks. Cause that, that's the pulse. Like I said, that's the pulse of the business. And you're going to get a good indicator in about 5 minutes about how people are doing. And the great thing about our industry is people are going to be candid with you when you ask them how things are going. They're going to tell you how it's going. So sometimes you might be getting some tough medicine, but a lot of times they're going to tell you the things that are going great for them too. So I always enjoy doing that. So short answer, Tristan, again, not enough, but I can't stress the importance of doing that for anybody else that's listening, but it's a reminder for myself as well.

So, no, I appreciate you sharing that. The, yeah, like it's, I call it, somebody said it's like, you gotta taste the soup. You know, you gotta get out and you really gotta, and, and you can, you can look at as many dashboards and as many metrics and cost, all that stuff as you want, but you really wanna see it. Just, just, just go physically see it. 'Cause it's like, it's, it's, it's right there. Uh, and I think the importance of presence is kind of underrated in that like people have no idea how good it feels if you're working on a crew. And somebody actually gets out of the truck and comes and shakes your hand. Like, I remember it cause I, like, you, I remember the feeling of working on a crew and seeing the, like the project manager and the field engineers, like some of them, they would just like roll through. They wouldn't even get out, but Leslans would get out, they'd park, they'd walk and they, they, they'd shake everybody's hand and they'd, they'd check, you know, and they, you could tell if they really wanted to. Hear how you're doing or not. Uh, and it's, it's important to make people, um, to make people feel seen. Um, it's, it's kind of a, it's kind of a superpower and it only happens by physically getting out.

Uh, you have to, you have to be intentional about it. And, uh, you know, the, the amount of, uh, activity that happens on the desk here, you know, it just, it never stops, but, but you know what, it's also here when you get back from the field too. Uh, and you just, you just have to keep that in mind.

Yeah. And, and then also be aware that, uh, there's a great word in our vocabulary and it's called no. And, and, and part of it, creating that time is saying no to other things and saying, and knowing that at times that's okay. That's okay to say, you know what, I can't make that meeting. I have to go down here and, and. And do this. So yeah, that's, anyways, I could go on. But, and it's also one of the things that I miss the most, honestly, like, with what I currently do, because I get to spend a lot of time with customers and, you know, I mean, you know, we visited and estimators and, you know, team members, but I don't get as much time in the field. And that's one of the things that I miss the absolute most about, you know, working, not working in the industry. So it's truly a gift. Um, on, on the, uh, kind of getting back to like the stuff that you pay attention to, maybe outside of just the field stuff. So obviously you're kind of keeping your pulse by looking, you're spending time on job sites, like thinking about other things that you're trying to like pay attention to, like with regards to costs and with regards to like safe quality and with regards to safety. What are the, what are the things that you were like, I have to know how this is going. And how do you find those important things out that are like right all the way at the top of the list for you?

Yeah. So we, what we did is, oh, it's about 18 months after I got here. We, I mentioned it earlier, but we embarked on a strategic planning process and that's the conversation. Multiple conversations, but that's where we really sat down and started talking about what— where do we want the organization to go. And, and I, I start there because the, the conversations, uh, that we had related to that plan were around safety and quality and, uh, uh, technology, right? And there was a number of other things, but, but those, those are just three that come to my mind. And, you know, we started talking about where, where do we want to be as, as an organization in safety. And we had not really— I mean, we were a safe organization, uh, uh, company had a great track record, something to be proud of, but still clearly a lot of things that we could have done better and needed to improve upon. So one of the things we decided is we wanted to work towards being a best-in-class, uh, operator in safety. So So, we invested in a group of safety professionals and brought them on board and started, you know, we knew this was going to be a journey. It's not something that takes place overnight. And wasn't just about investing in them, but about investing in activities and processes and expectations that would lead to a safer organization. So I'm just using that as an example. So to answer your question, what we do is we try to let the plan, the strategic plan, guide our focus areas and keep us on course. And when we do that, we set up metrics for each of the main items that we're going to focus on so that we can keep track of it. And one of those, our president here, Sierra Jackson, has championed this, our safe driving scores. We measure our safe driving scores through— we got Samsara in all of our vehicles and they've got a scoring system. We measure that every week. We've got an expectation that we expect people to hit and we actually have integrated that into the performance structure. To get the safety scores where we want them. And of course, when we're safe driving, you know what's happening? We've got less people potentially hurt. We've got less equipment damaged. You know, it's an easy return on investment just in terms of your people, right? And your people being in a safer organization. So those are the type of things that we look at, right? We set up metrics to look at and that I look at over the long term. We've had some great success. I mean, we still have so much improvement to make and we can be so much better, but that's all on the mission to be best in class in safety. We want to be the best and safest operator in South Carolina. So that's one. One example of it. Uh, quality, same thing. We want to be, uh, we want to lead the, uh, the state in quality work. Um, we've got some work to do there and we knew it, and we still have some work to do there. We're, we're making great progress, but again, it's a journey, right? You don't turn these things around, uh, and, uh, and get where, where you want to be and, and, and one month or one year. It takes time to get these things culturally where you want them. So we're actively working on that. We track how we do on the quality side. We make those things a priority to report on and we let those things be our guiding principles, if you will, or our guiding goals for the business. And so when you ask about what do I look at, Those are the things that I keep an eye on and monitor to see how we're progressing. And I don't worry too much about the results of one particular day in relative terms. I look at how are we doing over a period of time. Are we getting towards those goals that we've set? So, yeah, all of those things are part of that, a lot more, but those are definitely 3 that are at the top of the list. Being intentional about our annual training. We got a great team of folks that manage our annual training process. We shut down for an entire day in both organizations and bring everybody in for an annual training day, and they put a lot of effort into that. And that's all. Strategically thought through to align with what our strategic goals are. Education, you know, there's a number of different things, but there's a lot of work that goes into that. I mean, just planning for that day takes a fairly significant team of our people 6, 7, 8 months to organize and get ready for. So those are the things that that I look at it. I also spend a fair amount of my time thinking about what impacts from a national scale, trend scale, or how those things are going to impact our business. Of course, the big ticket item right now, if you read any news at all, is artificial intelligence and whether that's going to take over the world or not. Uh, you know, those, those things are on the horizon for us. And, and so I spend a lot of time thinking about how, how we might be needing to incorporate those in the business too.

So, yeah, I'd love to hear more, kind of more about that. How are you, how are you thinking about that? Maybe like, how do you, um, what, what are your thoughts, uh, in, in general on, on AI, uh, in, in construction? Yeah.

So I, I think it's gonna, I think it's gonna be a big impact on, on our business. Uh, Now, I'm not in the camp of folks that feel like it's going to take over jobs en masse or replace jobs en masse. I don't believe that. I think it's going to enhance jobs. I think it will replace some jobs, and I think it will also create other jobs in the process. So I think that— and we're wrestling with this right now is where to start, right, with artificial intelligence. And that first step actually was with your team and Advanta to try to get us off the ground and get a taste of that. And that's been a great, great, great first step for us. What we've also learned and we're We're becoming much more educated along the way with this, but you know, I think the first steps, uh, for us has been security and, uh, how do you set up a structure to, uh, manage your, uh, your data and, and those things. So, so our, our option has been, uh, to, uh, make sure we've got the foundation right first. Uh, and then start to think about where we truly, beyond, uh, as Vanda, where we, where we start to integrate, uh, AI elsewhere in the business. Now, I happen to think that, that a big part of that is going to be in the equipment, uh, and, and, and, you know, AI is a broad term, right? Uh, and, and it could be used for a lot of different things, but I think specifically what we're going to see in the equipment side is— and it's already happening, uh, now— but autonomous equipment is going to be a It's going to be real. It already is real, but it's going to be more relevant in the paving industry very quickly. So I think that's something that we're going to see easily in the next 5— within the next 5 years. I think that interestingly enough, I think robotics will be part of our world too, where I think if we can find very repetitive tasks within the industry that are done over and over and over again, I think there's going to be a place for robotics and maybe our shops or things like that where that type of application will make a lot of sense. And I mean, we're, you know, 10 years ago we were talking and dreaming a little bit about this stuff, but it was way out, right? It was still far out in front of us, or at least it felt that way. Today it's here now and actually taking place, and I think it's going to have a big impact on the business. So it's exciting. It really is. It's also a bit overwhelming on where you start, but what I try to remind the team is, is We just, we're going to pick one place and start somewhere and, and, and, and that'll lead us to another step and to multiple steps from there. So, you know, I think you got to distill it down into something that's manageable.

Yeah. That's great. Yeah. And I know you guys have done a great job, you know, I think on, on, on the adoption side and, you know, the buy-in and also kind of having a, a committee approach where it's not just one person who's making the decision. It's, it's, you know, you have multiple stakeholders involved in kind of like running process around like, what important business problem do we want to try to solve? What are we doing, you know, today to try to solve it? And how does, you know, this newer, you know, technology, how can this potentially, you know, change that and make it better? And then pick stuff that matters, pick stuff that actually really is going to have a serious, you know, impact on the business. I mean, we're obviously kind of, focused on the pre-construction and the bidding side, but there's so many other parts of construction where there's opportunity. And I think, yeah, to your point, it's kind of intimidating. And even I'm, as somebody who uses these tools like every single day, I'm deeply involved in, all of our engineers are using a lot of the latest coding tools especially. It's overwhelming for me. It's just this, It's, uh, there's a great quote, uh, that's like basically, you know, like every day, every day I go to bed, there's like a breakthrough and then an AI breakthrough. And then every, you know, morning I wake up, there's another AI breakthrough. It's like, yeah, it is. It can be intimidating. So yeah, to your point, I think the—

but you said, you said something there that I think is critical. And I think that wherever the starting point is, is it within any organization, You got to pick something that moves the needle, uh, that— because, uh, that's, that's where you're going to see— you're going to see some— that's where you're going to see success. You're going to see failures along the way, but you're going to be motivated to, to integrate it and make it work because it will make a, a significant change for the business. So I think that's important, is choose something significant.

And you and I are 100% in the same camp in that, um, I believe that there may be some shifting of people from what they were doing before to maybe some new things. But if you follow the history of technology, whenever something like a technological breakthrough has happened, it's always created more new opportunities. And I think we're going to see the same thing in construction. I mean, we're We're almost 450,000 people short in the industry right now. There's going to be, in my opinion, an abundance of like opportunities and work out there that can get done with the help of this, you know, new technology that couldn't get done before. And also people spending time on more of the stuff that matters, which is like what we talked about in, in, in a lot of our discussion, which is how can I spend more time in the field? How can I get out and actually see crews more? How can I do that stuff that makes the job, uh, more enjoyable? Uh, I think that's where some of the opportunities that are going to be created.

And so, I mean, I, I think to your point, I think one of the things that, that we're going to see the most benefit out of is just the efficiency improvement, right? I mean, something that took, um, oh, 5 or 10 hours yesterday might take, uh, 5 minutes or 10 minutes today. So I think the productivity improvement is going to be massive, and that's not going to be a job elimination. That's just going to be the fact that you can process more in a day's time, whatever you're working on. It's going to help you do that. Now, that could create some problems down the road for us in terms of, the depth of education and, and understanding the foundational aspects of what we do, what's, what's behind the calculations. Uh, uh, so that's something that, you know, generationally we'll have to cross that bridge, uh, as we, as we, uh, uh, progress. But, but there is going to be a huge efficiency improvement. You can see it now.

So, and then I think the other thing is that One, it's important to teach the new people that are coming in the fundamentals and really understand like first principles, how this, how the work actually gets done correctly. And also by having all these efficiency gains, the cost of the work, you know, of it getting put in place will actually go down. And then actually, instead of there being less work to do, jobs that maybe weren't feasible now, maybe that job that couldn't get built 5 years ago can actually get built. So there, so there may actually be more work out there. For contractors. So I think, and it's hard to see that with so much uncertainty right now as we're kind of going through this interesting and at times turbulent period, but I'm really optimistic about it. So yeah, I think we share that. Great. Well, Robert, one last final question I wanted to ask you. Was, what, uh, is there, is there a, is there a book that has really like, you know, impacted you or something that you've, you know, read recently, um, that you find yourself, you know, recommending, uh, to, to others?

Yeah, so, uh, I always have a book going, uh, actually, and, uh, one that I just finished reading a couple weeks ago, it's called The, uh, The Gales of November And it's about the, uh, uh, I don't know if you'll remember this happened when I was young and when you were young as well, but the, the Edmund Fitzgerald, uh, which was a lake freighter, uh, a ship that sank in a storm in Lake Superior in the '70s. And, uh, the, uh, the book, it was actually, uh, much, much more than I expected when I read it, but it was really a book about, uh, Uh, there's a lot of, uh, there's a lot of interwoven, uh, messages within the book, but one of, or one or two of the, the most important were leadership, uh, and, uh, the cost of, uh, pushing the limits over a long period of time, uh, and ultimately that led to the tragedy of the ship sinking. And I'll just give you an anecdote on on that. But, but those ships were loaded above their design line because, uh, the, the, the, uh, the, the motivation for the ship's captain was to have the heaviest load, uh, and make the most and move it the fastest and the most trips, uh, during the shipping season. And, and it wasn't just this ship, but. But, uh, those ships were motivated to, uh, uh, uh, load heavy. And, and they, and they did for long periods of time, for years. Uh, and over time they got caught in a bad storm, and it happened to be this captain's final run. He was actually on his way— when he hit the dock, he was retiring. It was his last, uh, last trip. And, uh, that, uh, that practice over time led to a tragedy. So I, I say that because when you're in a leadership spot, uh, it's a— it was a solid reminder for me that, uh, over time, uh, you let things go and they can lead to bad places. So, um, I, I'd highly recommend that book. It was a very interesting book. It told a little bit about the lives of, uh, the folks that were, that were on the ship. And, uh, uh, uh, it was a— it was a good read.

So awesome. Great. Well, if you like that one, I'm gonna throw one back at you. That I really enjoyed that actually involves a ship as well. It's called Endurance about Shackleton, which is— Okay, you're familiar with— Okay, cool. Great book. Whenever I think I'm having a bad day, you know, because like, you know, building a startup sometimes can be like kind of crazy and like really hard. I can just go flip and open a page of that book and it's like, ah, yeah, I'm— I actually got it pretty good.

Yeah, it could be worse. Yeah, that was an excellent read as well.

Yeah, it could be a lot worse. So great. Awesome, Robert. Well, um, where can, uh, people, uh, follow, uh, follow you and, and, and also, um, uh, Sierra Jackson?

Uh, well, so we're, uh, we're on Instagram, uh, and, uh, social media. And, um, of course, uh, you can follow me on LinkedIn. Um, I'm not a, uh, I'm not a big poster, but, uh, I am— you can connect with me there. Uh, but, uh, uh Of course, you could follow us on the website as well, but, uh, uh, yeah.

Yeah. Well, great. Well, I really, really appreciate it. Appreciate the conversation we covered. We covered a lot of ground and got into a lot of the, a lot of the topics that I wanted to dive into. So really appreciate you, uh, really appreciate you taking the time. Uh, what wonderful conversation. I know our, uh, our listeners will, will, will get a lot of value out of it. So thank you, Robert.

Great. Well, thanks for having me, Tristan. Good to catch up.