Reality Transplaining #PART2 Fire & Breaks Silence On The Reality Transurfing Frauds

This episode of Reality Transplaining is to protect you. This is about you and protecting you from being exploited by spiritual fraudsters. Stay tuned.

Mr. Bozo, in the very, very beginning, a lot of people thought that this guy was this big, lovable, jolly Transurfing character. He, uh, his intention was that he wanted to get me into a position where he was just gonna flat out take over everything that I've done, remove my name and my image off of it, and put his name and his image on it instead. And I figured out in advance that he was planning to do this and removed him from the community and got slack from people because I didn't tell the story because I didn't want to, like, you know, give it any more, any more importance. Yeah, but people were like, why'd you remove this guy? He's so nice. And I'm like, oh my God, what is going on here? This is like the freaking Twilight Zone. Talk about the— what's the, uh, the, the movie in the '80s of, of the woman that had multiple personalities? I'm like, Jesus Christ.

Um, you'll think of the one that Sally Field was in. Yes, yes, um, yes, it'll come to me in a second.

Yeah, Sybil. Sybil, yes.

And, and, you know, which is a really interesting— which is a really interesting choice of name because for those of you who don't know, Sybil— the Sybil— Sybil used to be a title. It used to be the, uh, prophetess in, uh, ancient Greece. Were the Sibyls, and they would commune with the spirits, and they would speak through the spiritual voices. So I think that was an allusion to that sort of behavior where you— where you are— you are— some other personality is speaking through you.

Yeah, you know, and here's the thing though, like, with Mr. Bozo, with, with, with all of these, with all of these, with all of these characters, including me Right? We're all flawed. We're all flawed. None of us are— I'm not trying to sit here and say that I'm not a flawed person, but I would never steal someone's content. You know what I'm saying? I would never—

And pass it off as your own.

Yeah. I would never do anything that's like, go sign up for somebody's course pretending to be somebody else to see how much time I could waste of that person and what I could get out of them for what reasons, all that kind of stuff. I mean, I— We're all— we are all flawed people, but to be in this space actively taking things and doing things such as what some of these characters have— how they're acting. I think that if the majority of the people knew some of the details behind some of these characters, they wouldn't be interested anymore. Getting back to Mr. Bozo quickly, I actually got an opportunity to hang out with Mr. Bozo for a week. And it turns out that Mr. Bozo has not only a very, very serious drug and alcohol problem, he also had negative $40 in his bank account, which his mother called him about every day to remind him that he had to get $40 put in the account or his next checks were going to overdraft his account even further. You know?

But I think it's— what's really interesting here from my point of view is that somehow these people are inefficiently dysfunctional because you find them out. They're not so good at their job that you can't find out what they're doing. You keep finding out.

Oh God, dirt that's— you keep— that I know about people is unreal.

Yeah, you keep finding out this stuff. So they're not very good at covering their tracks.

No. Or hiding.

I'm not— yes, and I'm, I'm not sure that we ever want to encounter a real danger, like somebody who really knows how to screw people and knows how to cover their tracks.

Yeah, because all these guys are just kind of petty, like they're just getting lucky and getting themselves into a space and able to show a single facet to some people that may or may not buy what it is that they're doing or selling or whatever. But yeah, I agree. I agree with what you're saying. Somebody could come in that has some actual talent in doing some of this stuff and really, and hope, I hope to God that we don't ever come face to face with one of those people.

Or if they do, that we know how to handle it.

Yeah.

We can, we can.

From the experience.

From the, yes, exactly. So you'll, I see myself, I see my reality. My reality is showing up areas of my vulnerability in this space, and I'm dealing with them. And gradually you end up being able to deal with anybody because you've had really good training from the minor players. So that when— if you've learned the lessons of the— of dealing with the little guy, the little fish, if the big sharks come along, you know how to deal with the big sharks as well, if they ever come along. Or by that time you're a big shark yourself, but a shark that behaves properly and decently.

Yes.

Um, says it's sort of like, I, I'm very— I'm a good person, but just don't screw with me because you will, you will find that I am capable of— fully capable of defending myself. Sort of like the little puffer fish swimming along, all of a sudden somebody tries to swallow you, you puff up, and they find that their mouth is full of barbs and they can't wait to get rid of you. And if they finally— when they finally spit you out, they're going to have wounds all over the place and regret that they ever had anything to do with you. I need closure on, on, um, Cindy. So at the end of the day, did Cindy ever find out that you knew this stuff about her?

No, um, but I actually ended up— so Cindy, how it ended with Cindy is Cindy had a Facebook group that was removed. A big, huge, thriving Facebook group was removed from Facebook.

Is this because you talked to Facebook and you said—

Nope, it wasn't me. Nope, it wasn't.

That's interesting.

It was not me.

How was it removed?

Well, I, I know how it was removed because Cindy— and this is the really interesting part of Cindy— Cindy, um, Cindy told me why it was removed. Um, yes, um, because Cindy had made a YouTube video that I can't say exactly what it is about because it will give away absolutely who Cindy is. But I will say this: Cindy made a YouTube video which had a term on it that was against Facebook policy.

Right.

Because it suggested self-harm.

Aha.

But it wasn't a self-harm video. It was a, it was a Neville Goddard term that was just worded funny. But Facebook didn't see it like that. So Facebook removed Cindy's Facebook group, and Cindy reached out to me asking me if I would write Facebook to tell Facebook that it was a mistake and I'm vouching for Cindy's character and to please reinstate Cindy's Facebook group. And I said I would. And I did, even though Cindy wants to see me burn at the stake. I wrote Facebook and said, listen, Cindy's Facebook group was pulled down. That's not what Cindy meant. That was a term from the 1950s from a writer that you guys misconstrued. Would you please reinstate Cindy?

Revise. Yep.

But Cindy, decided to— once Cindy got another Facebook group up and running, which got a lot of the people back really quickly, Cindy decided that they would spearhead a campaign against me saying that I had Cindy's Facebook group removed. Oh really? Even though Cindy reached out to me asking me—

Cindy sounds like a real psycho.

Oh my God, and I got screenshots. So I got screenshots of— yeah, so, so, so I got evidence. So when Cindy— so when Cindy asked me if I would write to Facebook in Cindy's honor and say this blah blah blah, I said, sure, but I'm not a part of your group anymore, Cindy. And they said, yeah, you are, you joined it a couple of years ago. And yet I said, yes, but I removed myself after I saw that your group is essentially a forum to talk bad about me and you never said anything. Oh no, that's not true. I would never allow that. Oh, but by the way, would you mind to write Facebook now and tell them that? So I did, and Cindy went on to spearhead this campaign against me saying that I had had Cindy's Facebook group removed, and I just laughed. And that's really all the—

and the Facebook group The Facebook group is still not there. It's gone.

Well, Cindy had— Cindy started up another Facebook group which now has the numbers back.

Oh, okay, fine.

Yeah, fascinating, huh?

Fascinating. Uh, don't know quite what to do with that story. Maybe if Cindy behaves like this for long enough, people will just see through her and eventually it'll come crashing down.

Yeah, who knows? I mean, all of these characters, I kind of feel like— I don't know, there's just like a safe falling through the sky headed right in there with, with balance, with balancing forces and excess potential written off. With balancing forces and excess potential. All I can really do is just try to, um, you know, it's just, it's just like my Transurfing approach. And this is the perfect example with Cindy because a lot of people in my team knew all this stuff that Cindy was doing, and they would say, "Why do you still go on Cindy's podcast?" And I'd say, "You know what? Because Cindy invites me, and Cindy is nice to me on the podcast, and Cindy promotes Reality Transurfing. And I'm gonna focus on what is working, what is good, what does benefit my reality. And all the other stuff, Cindy's broken personality and many faces of Eve and all that crap," I'm just going to ignore all that stuff and just focus on the good stuff. And that's what I've done. You know, I mean, what else can you do? What else can you do?

You know, well, you can stop engaging with Cindy altogether at some point.

So, so in, in, in my, in my jewelry business, I heard somebody say in the very beginning, because two people were complaining about ripping each other off and blah, blah, blah, and then I saw them doing business at a trade show and I thought, God, isn't that curious? They were just complaining about how each of them had ripped each other off and now they're doing business. And I remember saying something to a much older dealer friend of mine and he said, listen, Renee, he goes, this is a very, very, very small group of people. This is a very small industry and there's a lot of shenanigans. If you're going to stop doing business with someone someone every time they do something a little bit shady to you, you're gonna find out really quickly that you're gonna have nobody left to do business with. You gotta figure out a way to mend the relationship and make your money back, do business with them to make your money back and get on down the road. Don't exclude people, keep doing business with people, do what you can with them. And I've brought that over to this, but I can understand definitely why you would say that or other people would say, screw Cindy. Why would you even have anything to do with Cindy anymore?

So this is a very— so this is a very interesting lesson. It's almost like— it's like socially you can still have a good time with somebody that you don't like, uh, if there is some— you— it's about looking at the advantage, isn't it?

Yes.

It really is about— it's about taking— it's about saying, okay, where is the advantage in this— say, in this for me? Can I work this in such a way that I will benefit and the people that I'm wanting to help will benefit? While let's not throw out the baby with the bathwater, because if you throw out every baby every time that the baby fouls the bathwater, you're not going to end up with no babies.

Yes.

And you've got to— and I think that the analogy here of having— of dealing with babies is very is, is not accidental because you're actually dealing with people who are spiritually immature. So anybody who feels that they need to cheat, lie, exploit, um, thieve other people's property is probably coming from a space where at least that part of them doesn't really, um, doesn't really— I wouldn't— doesn't really believe this. Yes, you have to— if you have to resort to that sort of behavior, you're not really walking the talk, walking the walk, or talking— you're talking the talk but you're not walking the walk. You're not being consistent or authentic with— you're not practicing what you preach.

Exactly, exactly. And somebody basically said something that I want to find. As you're talking, I'm going to find this comment that somebody made on the last video that was really amazing, exactly what you're talking about. Um, that's, that's what, that's what it is. Oh, here it is.

So you've— yeah.

When you call out spiritual fraud, the pendulum will whack you. A long time ago, an amazing spiritual woman told me everyone is always operating from the highest level of love they have available. This video reminded me of that comment. One might think that in spiritual communities, all involved are operating from a high level of love, but let's be real, we all have shit to deal with, and sometimes we're not coming from a high level of love, right? So how I heard that, kind of in line with what you're saying, and this holds true for all the big guys in the space, I mean, they probably are operating like Tony Robbins, I mean, even though I don't necessarily agree with a lot of his self-development tools, I do believe that he genuinely cares for people. I can see that in him. I can gain a pretty decent sense if someone, you know, is regardless of their, um, like in Alcoholics Anonymous, they say, um, principles before personality.. And I think that's true in this space. Like, I can see that his principles are probably pretty solid. I can tell that he probably really likes people and wants to see people do well. I've watched a couple of things of his, and I've seen like he has— it looks like he has genuine passion for people, love for people.

Yes. Or if he is faking it, he's doing such a good job that it might as well be authenticity.

Yes, yes. And I think that a lot of these people that we're talking about, Chad and Gupta and Cindy, they're, they're, I think their intentions are good. Like, I think that, or I think their intentions were originally good, right? And this is where I, I've gotten a little bit of, um, you know, people don't like when I call out the whole vanity metrics thing and, um, say You're buying shit. You're buying subs. You're buying likes. You're buying all these things.

But they probably rationalize it and say, this is a means to an end.

This is a means to an end. Exactly. And I know these dudes have families and they've got, you know, mouths to feed and they've turned it into, they've turned it into a business. And I think this is what probably sets me aside a little bit. Is I have a business that makes me decent money. I'm not solely dependent on this space like these others are. And I think what happens is people come to this space with good intentions. They want to help people. They're looking to develop themselves with the knowledge that they've found. And then they're like, okay, well, I can put this out into the world too. It feels good. You're, you're doing stuff with your mirror, you're getting energy flowing, people are responding to you. It's all, it's all good until you have to turn it into a business to survive. Then you—

but that, but that is the crux. That's the, that's the crucial point. At that point, you have to decide, do I really, for want of a better word, believe all this crap. Because if I believe all this crap, I know that I will find a way of being able to do this ethically, and I would do it with integrity and do and maintain the good intent. And the opportunities will come anyway. I don't have to worry about the money. The money will come if I really believe it. But if there's a— if there's niggling doubt and saying, oh, you know, so maybe, maybe it is a little bit woo-woo, maybe it is all a bit bullshitty, maybe it is all a bit like just a lot of crap. I'm going to have to go down the questionable path of doing things that are questionable and lacking in integrity, like buying numbers.

Yes, you nailed it, Xavier. You absolutely nailed it.

So it's about actions speak louder than words. It sounds trite. It sounds like we're just giving you a platitude, but it's true. You watch what the person is actually doing, how they are actually behaving in the space, and then you move accordingly. What are they actually doing? Because if you want— if becoming a good judge of character takes time, it's probably one of the great skills that I would teach in schools, understanding character and what it means. How did this person behave in this particular context? And go deep into their story, because you might find that they're operating from a logic if you understand them well enough.

I want to tell you something really funny that just came up as a memory about Chad, the individual that stole the trailer. Yeah. So he—

Stole the 9, yeah.

Yeah. So when I finally got on the phone with him— OK, so this has been 5 years at this point that we've been in the same space. All the stuff that happened, me telling him he had to give the name back, he had to stop using the name, taking up issues with him, all this stuff. We have a conversation. The two questions that he wanted to ask me that were— I could tell just right at the front he was dying to ask me these questions. How much is your course and how many people have you sold it to? Those were the two questions that he asked me. And God, I mean, it makes me almost want to cry. I was like, dude, this is what you want to ask? Like, this is where it's at for you? This is what you're— this is what you're— this is how you want to connect with me? "how much is your course and how many have you sold?" Are you fucking kidding me? I mean, I was, I actually, I remember I actually laughed out loud. I was like, "Really?" I'm like, "That's what you want to ask me?" I couldn't believe it. I couldn't believe it. And then he wouldn't let it go. He wanted to know and he asked me in a roundabout way a couple more times. I was like, "Man, this is super weird." This is super weird.

So what was that telling you about what he wanted? He wanted to know whether it was worth his trouble to go down the space for profit. Is that what— what you— how will you interpret it?

Honestly, honestly, I interpreted it as he was trying to gain a sense of a figure of how much I had made that was taken away from him. It was about comp— it was about competitiveness. He was acting like he was interested, but it was all about competition. And, you know, I mean, maybe I should have told him because the number probably would have disappointed him, because as most people know in this space, including you, I'm not really a salesperson with these courses. I'm not really— the reason that I even did the courses in the first place is because people were just messaging me all the time, hey, does ITI have a course? Does ITI have a course? And finally, I kind of felt a little bit like, well, if I am the International Transurfing Institute, I should probably have courses.

Yes, an institute, institute does imply certain things, among which are like education and educational resources. So it's pretty Yes, it's not particularly clever to call yourself an institute unless you're willing to deliver on kind of industry, industry standards. Yes, it's an industry standard that— and, and if you're going to go down that path, you might as well produce a quality product, a product that will actually help people. And you should provide money-back guarantees, and you should provide, uh, a way of contacting you if somebody wants to give you feedback.

And I actually just told somebody that, um, reached out to me asking me some questions about some other people's stuff, and I was just like, I was like, dude, be careful who you give your money to and make sure there's always a money-back guarantee.

You know, there's always, there's always that question is if, if it is like we had that conversation yet behind the scenes We had that conversation yesterday, or the day before, it was the day before, when if you have to ask the question, can I trust this person, you're already suspicious.

Things already there, something's already there. Yes.

Now you can— now there are two things that are likely to be there. One thing is you're there because you are a suspicious person and you will look at anybody, even the most innocent and well-meaning person, suspiciously, and that's your crap that you have to deal with. And the other is that you actually aren't paranoid or of a suspicious nature, but you're just trying to be cautious, and something is telling you something's wrong.

Yeah.

So you've got to work out— again, this is where you have to even be the judge of your own character— am I a suspicious person? Am I going to misinterpret even the most innocent thing suspiciously? Yeah, I mean, if you're like— because if you're that sort of person, it doesn't matter how much assurance you get, you're never going to be satisfied. At the end, this is what this is. But this is why we have things like reputation and brand awareness, and we have— and we have track records. Like, I can say If you want to engage with me, my track record is quite public. This is what I've done. It's easy to check up on me. Xavier Watergate. Yeah, it's easy to check up on me. You just Google my name and a whole bunch of stuff comes up. Obviously, I walk the walk. I talk the talk. Yeah, this is it. It's there.

Yeah.

So you did— if you can't even trust that, then there's a problem. Then you, then you actually have a problem.

Well, let me tell you, when I reached out to one of these characters to find out what it was that they were doing exactly, he knew who I was. He totally knew who I was. Gupta. This happened.

Oh, is this the Gupta story now?

This is the Gupta story. So, you know, this— it's kind of an interesting story, actually. I reached out to Gupta. I thought to myself, You know what I'm going to do? I'm going to do something totally anomalous and bizarre and weird. And it was totally out of character for me. I've never paid— the only course that I've ever paid for in my life was a course on writing, uh, for online publications. That's the only course I've ever purchased. But I thought to myself, you know what I'm going to do? I'm going to reach out to Gupta, who's in this space, and I know this is going to sound crazy, I'm going to hire Gupta on as my life coach. I'm going to pay him whatever this thing is, and I'm going to hire Gupta on as my life coach. And he knew who I was, he totally knew who I was. So I reached out to him and I was like, dude, I know this is going to sound weird, but I would like to do one-on-one with you, and I would like to have you on as my life coach. And he was like, let's set up a call. So I set up— we set up a call, and I get on with him, and he's like super friendly guy, very, very charismatic. And I said, how much do you want to do one-on-one? And he's like, well, I don't do one-on-one, I do group calls, and it's, um, once a week call. There's other people that'll be there. And you can ask any questions of me and I'll lead you through all this stuff. And I'm like, yeah, but I don't want to be with a group of people. I just want to be like one-on-one. He's like, I don't do that. You got to do the group call. I'm like, okay, so how much is the group calls? He's like, it'll cost you $4,000 to buy in and you'll get group calls with me once a week. And I'm like, for how long? And he's like, for a lifetime. And I'm like, you're gonna have a call.

That's a business model.

I know, I know. I was like, that, it was bizarre. And I was like, you're committing to a lifetime of calls with me and other people once a week for $4,000? So then I started asking him questions because I felt like something was off. I'm like, okay, I want to see what exactly I'm going to get. Because what I really wanted him to help me with was like, expanding my vision to get Reality Transurfing out to the world in a bigger way. And I thought, who better to help me than Gupta? So, he keeps pressuring me to do this 4,000 weekly call, blah, blah, blah. And I'm like, okay, stop with the sales. Let's talk about your actual, like, strategy, what you're going to help me with. What have you done? I'm like, what have you done?

What have you achieved? Is that what you were asking?

What have you achieved? Yep.

In your life? Yes.

Turns out Gupta is 19 years old, lives in his parents' basement in like New York somewhere, and has never had a job in his life.

Right.

And I was shocked.

How did you find— and how did you find this out?

He told me. Oh, I asked him all over the call and he just told me. And I was like, I was like, Gupta, you're 19 years old and you've never had a job. How are you teaching people how to be entrepreneurs? And he went through this bizarre rattling off things that sounded very recited and very rehearsed about connecting with your higher self and pushing through boundaries and all this stuff. And I was like Yeah, but a bunch of buzzwords, a bunch of buzzwords. But I was like, how are you able to teach people that if you've never actually done that yourself? And I, and I'm not trying to judge the dude, but I could not get over the fact that he was 19 years old. I just couldn't. It— I, I tried after I got off the call with him. I was flabbergasted, one, because I thought he was at least like in his mid-20s or something. And I, I was like, okay, try to maintain an open mind, Renee. Like maybe he could, maybe he's on to something, maybe he knows something, maybe he don't just discount it because he's 19 years old. But then the follow-up things of the high pressure, this is only good for another 24 hours, are you going to do this, the time is now, why are you going to—

It's like he learned all the classic clichés.

Yeah.

Of the industry.

Yes.

Art, an artificial sense of urgency.

Yeah.

Buzzwords, meaningless platitudes that aren't backed by anything. And he just had this, this thing, and he just thought, okay, I'll just deliver this. And the fact that he wasn't interested in, in even doing a one-on-one session with you, I mean, he could have charged you $500.

I would have paid it.

You would pay?

I would have paid it.

And, and in the, and in that hour or 2 hours or whatever he would have given you you would have been able to assess whether or not what he was giving you was of value. And he said, well, now that you see that this is of value, would you like to try the $4,000 job?

Yeah, no, there was none of that.

So it wasn't— so he wasn't even clever about that. Yeah. And we should be using this— not that any of the millions of people watching this, and some of you might be shonky, think that that's a way of getting to people. We're actually trying to warn people You've got to look at the track record, and track records are hard to, to come by.

Track records are hard to come by, absolutely.

You have to actually, actually have to produce stuff. I mean, in my own career, I had to start off by writing a book that got published and sold well enough so my publisher would have enough faith in me to sign me for a multi-book deal. Yeah, or to continue offering me like gigs, like sometimes she'd ask for something to be done and I'd do it, and sometimes I'd propose stuff and I'd do it, blah blah blah. If I hadn't made money, if I hadn't continued in a very— in a business where it's really difficult to make money, it's really difficult to make money from publishing because everything— the whole world is there full of people saying, oh, we're doing so well, we're doing so well, but a lot of the time it's just a lot of smoke and mirrors. Yeah, people don't want to hear from me that actually it's a long road and you've really got to be dedicated. You really got to love this stuff. Yeah, like Renee's been doing this for now 6 years and it's only just now beginning to take off in a slightly bigger way. But as she and I discussed behind the scenes, it's a good thing that all of these funny spiritually shonky people are coming up at this level because you don't want to meet them when you're big. Big, uh, or really big, because then the stakes are much higher and it can really take you out.

Yes.

And it's really— and if you haven't toughened yourself up, yeah, emotionally, you'll start getting— you can, you can get fried totally, purely because you— because you— because it can be, especially if you're sensitive, to have to confront these sorts of people, even at a low level. I find even having a conversation about like this to be slightly uncomfortable because I feel a little bit dirty.

It does feel dirty.

It— the fact that this sort of behavior even exists makes me think, ick, and that you're in the space. Yeah, yeah, but you see, yeah, but you see, it's everywhere. Everything is— yeah, but the point— yeah, but the alternative space has everything in it. So they're going to be parts of the alternative space, part of the life— some of the world's lines, some of the life tracks are pretty awful. So it's up to us to ask ourselves, why am I suddenly stumbling into this awful space? This is not my reality. This is not the reality I want. And this is where you need to use Transurfing techniques, just like I did, just like I did in the jewelry business.

I mean, it's kind of like whenever you— and I think this is— this could be a really solid takeaway for anybody watching this video is Whenever you enter into a new space, you are going to have to gain a sense of the lay of the land, and it is most likely going to be uncomfortable and going to come with some hard lessons. You've got to—

especially if you're naive, if you're— especially if you're naive and you have a spa— especially if you have a fantasy of what it's like. Yeah, like for all those young people out there who want to make it in pop music or or you have no idea how vicious the music—

oh God, can you imagine? Oh my God, oh my God, no, you have no idea, right? Gonna have to run the gauntlet.

Yes, you're gonna have to run a gauntlet, and you might find that you're probably better off simply, um, singing your songs and writing your music and starting off slow and building up over time rather than getting a contract that you're going to be bound for and to be totally exploited over.

Yeah, so true.

Do, do your research or become the sort of person for the— who never, who never gets touched by that because your own spiritual integrity is so strong. Because if you're vibrating at a particular— up here, the people down there just can't engage with you. They just can't.

And I, I think that's— I think that is I think that's the golden egg of this conversation is you're going— whenever you enter into a space, and the self-development space is no different than any other space, people that have turned it into a means to survive are going to resort to shady tactics to—

Well, the temptation is there.

The temptation is there.

And many people fall to that temptation. Some people don't. Some people are good at maintaining their integrity, but you've got to learn how to separate those. And you've got to look and you've got to ask yourself, who am I? Because I see myself, I see my reality. If I'm attracting shonky people into my life, I have to ask myself, what is it in me that's leaving the space open for shonkiness?

What are my values?

Well, what are my naiveties? Where am I not? What am I not seeing? What are my blind spots? Which is why, which is why in the, in this space and in any space, the best possible advertising is often word of mouth from people you trust.

Yes, even just running ads for me today. Yesterday was the first day that I've run some ads and I'm like It's weird. It's very strange. I know that, you know, there's nothing wrong with running ads, but like I have now associated running ads with Gupta and Chad, and now I'm in there.

And shonky behavior, suspicious behavior.

Mr. Bozo.

Yeah, yeah, Mr. Bozo and all of these strange— and, and, but you can't, again, you can't throw out the media baby with the media bathwater, right?

Yes, yes, yes.

All media is awful. Not all advertising is lies. Sometimes it's, sometimes it's— but you can only do things out of integrity. What I find really amazing, this is, and this is what, where I find amazing, is And I want to share this with the millions of people watching because I have trouble getting my head around this. For the past over 100 years now, we have had the means of mass communication. We have had the ability to talk, to, to be single people talking to a great multitude of people. Earlier on, it was just radio. Then it became film, then it became television, and now in the early 21st century we have a fragmented media space filled with people who can have their own television channels. This is essentially a television channel, right? And this is essentially a television program in new form, right? In spite of the fact that we've had over 100 years of this, we've been exposed to this for generations, there is still in people this naive idea that what people present is truth and is real. People still fall for the fact that people can create a very manufactured, curated, manicured image, and people will think that that's—

yeah, but it's because— but, but it's coming from a place of— it's not necessarily naivety. I know, I know what, where it's coming from because this is something that I've actually experienced in my business, in my jewelry business. You know, these tales of people ripping each other off for extraordinary amounts of money. And me and my very, very close friend who share a set of morals and standards and beliefs about how to do business with people, we shake our heads and we're like, oh my God, I never would have even thought that that would be like a scam you could run on someone. And we're, and we're, yeah, and we're, and we're in disbelief because our minds aren't going to that place. It's the same with what you're talking about. People are taking face value because they're not thinking fraudulent thoughts or like they're not seeing that filter of fraudulent activity, you know.

Yes, it's like, it's, it's, it's It's like, it's like the, a child who, who, who is playing in the kindergarten and the stranger says, I've come here because your mommy asked me to bring you. And the kid says, oh, okay.

Yeah.

Because it never even occurred, because every experience, every experience that child has ever had is that everybody's okay. If mommy says that, well, that everybody's safe. But I just find it amazing that, that this, that in at least as far as people's relationship with the media is concerned, is that they're so naive about stuff. Yeah, still to that day. And yes, and yes, it also is the blind spot. You just— I hear about stuff like that, and I, I like to think that I'm a sophisticated person, but there are times when I hear— but there are times that I hear about stuff and think, I don't think in a million years my mind would have gone in that direction.

Well, so like the story, the story with, uh, Cindy wasting all my time in those emails. I mean, so it's the bizarre thing that like, well, why would Cindy want to waste Renee's time? But the more valuable thing going on here is why would Cindy waste his own— her own time? Why would Cindy waste her own time doing this? Out of—

Yes, because Cindy could be—

huge channel that Cindy has.

Why is Cindy— Cindy could just as easily have spent that same amount of time developing her own stuff.

Or doing something else. What was Cindy thinking spending that amount of hours engaging Renee Garcia in a fraudulent way? Bizarre. That's bizarre.

Exactly. And so, and so you— but these things are sent to teach us, I think. These things are— I mean, in the— in a sense though, Renee, you and I are asking for this. We're asking for enlightenment, okay? But enlightenment is about light. It's about shining the light on stuff. The sun shines equally on the most magnificent tree and the most disgusting pile of crap on the ground. But even a pile of crap on the ground is good fertilizer for the magnificent tree. Do you see what I mean?

Totally.

I'm saying we're shining the— we're shining the light on— we're shining the light on stuff and we're saying, okay, fine, be aware that that exists. Treat it, if you like, as a negative slide, and then make a decision on how you want to stand in relation to that.

Exactly.

And that's— but at least be aware that such things exist. Be aware that there are people out there who— and you can know it intellectually, but until you've been viscerally defrauded, until you've been viscerally experienced the consequences of these fraudsters and what they do, it might not be real enough. And sometimes, as we've often discussed, if somebody's in a state of mind, they just won't hear you when you're saying, this guy, this gal is a fraud. Yeah, wake up. 'Oh no, I don't think you understand.' No, we really do. You're in a state of mind where you're not hearing this. Have you finished with your stories?

Um, I think I have. I mean, unfortunately, a lot of these dudes have taken a lot of shots at me. I could probably go on for another 2 hours, but to be honest, I'm kind of sick of talking about it. Um, the one thing that I would like to say to sort of wrap up my side is when I entered into my business totally naive into the jewelry business and I saw this level of kind of stuff going on, I thought to myself, oh my God, this is a great opportunity. Everyone is scared shitless that so-and-so is going to rip them off, not pay their invoice, blah blah blah. All I need to do is convince people that I'm good for it and then never ever break my word. And I'm golden. And it doesn't even matter if I don't have a lot of money, as long as I commit and I show up with the check when I need to and I pay the thing, I'm golden. This is my way in. This is my way in. Right. And sure enough, sure enough, it worked. People started trusting me. And I even, there were a couple of times when I took stuff from people and said the check will be good in 2 weeks. And that 2 weeks came and I had a hard time coming up with the money because I hadn't sold the merchandise yet. But you know what? I hustled to get the money. I would sell other merchandise. I would do whatever it took to make sure that that check would clear. And I never one time reneged on my word or didn't follow up on what I said that I was going to do. And it made my business for me. So, and to this day, I mean, that was my door in. This is my door into this space now, is like, if I'm small, I don't care. I don't care if I stay small, as long as I stay true and I tell it how it is and I don't try to do shady shit to people.

Yeah. And all that stuff. And in the end, what is small anyway? Small is not, to me, small is not having enough. But when you have enough, that's fine.

It's enough. Once you have enough, once, and I'm happy, and I'm happy in this space, quantity or quality over quantity, you know what I'm saying? It's not about the, it's not about the, hey, how many courses did you sell and how many, how much money is your courses? I mean, come on, give me a fucking break. You know, but anyway, that was my little rant that I wanted to close with.

Okay, that's fine. Good.

And, and for everyone else, to use it as a door, right? Use your integrity as a door in a world of smoke and mirrors and people pulling the wool over each other's eyes, especially online. Figure out a way that you can stand aside, stand apart, and use your integrity to springboard you into some of those higher layers of reality, you know.

I mean, you can do it. I would like— yeah, and I would like to make a point here too. Much as we are trying to protect people from themselves and their own naivety, and probably much as we're trying to protect ourselves from our own naivety and our own blind spots, which by definition we can't see, we can just be aware that such things exist. Blind spots exist even though we— the specifics aren't there. What I'm saying is that I see myself, I see my reality. My reality is a reflection of who I am. What I am. The people who get cheated by people would have been cheated anyway because they were vulnerable to being cheated. Yeah, if you're vulnerable to being cheated, it doesn't matter who you're going to be cheated by. You might even be cheated by somebody who has no intention of cheating you because you showed up to be cheated. Yes, because you showed up to be cheated, and somebody in even with the best intentions, because there are stories like that, and people can reflect on their own lives and find that where they had every intention of being correct and doing something properly, the situation still ended up going crazy.

My, my, my— a friend of mine used to say, um, you know, if something was like left in a car or left out to where somebody could steal something, he'd say Now, let's not go challenging decent people.

Yeah.

You know what I'm saying? Let's not go— let's not set up a situation where we're going to challenge decent people. And it's essentially what you're saying, right? Like, if you show up— a fool and his money soon part— if you show up with handfuls of money and you're like, hi, here, I need help. I'm having a nervous breakdown. Help me. Somebody will help you part with it.

But the point is that the point is here, like, say somebody comes to me with a whole bunch of money and says, you can help me. And even if I say, okay, I can only help you to a little amount, but they're not hearing me, or I can't— I'm not qualified to help you with this, but I can get you something— they might not hear me in spite of all of my protestations. And even say, okay, you're paying for my time and you keep paying for my time, and that's fine, I can and I'm doing my best, but you keep insisting on pushing this money at me. And I keep saying, well, at least if they're pushing the money at me, I know that I'm coming from a good place and I'm doing the best I can to help them. But they're not, not getting helped because they're not in a space psychologically where I can even make that much of an inroad in helping.

I know, and not the—

they're still— and they're still pushing money at you, and you're telling me So look, and you're telling them, look, I don't know whether this relationship is working for you because you keep pushing money at me for this.

Yeah.

And I don't see any progress from you on this matter. But they— I've had this experience with lots of people, especially in my creative coaching, and say, your, your, your project's not there. You're right. Your book isn't getting written. And you're paying for these consults. I'm giving you this golden advice that's hopefully saving you thousands of dollars and hundreds of hours of time. But that's why I quit.

That's why I quit doing one-on-one. That's exactly why I quit doing one-on-one. Everyone asked me— well, not everyone, but lots of people have asked me why I don't do one-on-one, or if they can have one-on-one. And I pulled the plug on one-on-one because I did not feel good about taking money from people and them not seeing results, right?

I, I have no problem with people paying me for my time, but I will always call them out on, you're not showing, where are the results? Because they have to be willing to admit, yes, the results aren't coming, but we need to look at why. But fortunately, on the flip side of this, I can say that in my experience, eventually, if you make a breakthrough breakthrough, things start moving. But sometimes it can take a while before you get to that breakthrough because money does not solve the problem. Exactly. It's something— pushing money at something might not solve the problem.

You can't pay someone to Transurf your reality for you.

Exactly. You can only pay somebody to point the direction and say, if you do this and this and this, you are more likely to get the result. Yes, you've got to do the thing that I'm telling you to do, which a lot of people didn't want to do.

So that's when I thought, I'm taking people's money and they're not doing the thing, and I'm not feeling like I'm being effective. I only want— I only want money if I'm going to be effective. That— and if it's not, then I don't want it, then I don't want the money.

Yeah, but having— but being a writer, I can tell you that A book is made of many drafts. So I treat these sessions where people don't seem to be making process as drafts. We're trying to rewrite your life here. This is a draft. You've taken it to the editor. The editor has looked at it and said, okay, here's your draft back with corrections. Now keep going. Do what I do. And it might— you might have to go through 20, 100, 150 drafts. And that's just the nature of the beast. Yeah, I'd rather that they come to me because I know what I'm doing than to somebody who's a 19-year-old who lives in his parents' basement and has memorized a bunch of hot buzzwords. Yeah, that he's like the next Tony Robbins or whatever.

Yeah, with no—

with never even having had a job, having achieved. So it's like, I guess, the attitude that Michael— that Michael Jackson's, um, some of Michael Jackson's plastic surgeons had. Yeah, I will at least do the minimum amount of harm because this guy's a nut. Yeah, and he really needs— and he really needs some psychotherapy rather than endlessly carving his face into ever more bizarre forms.

Wow. Yeah, shame on those doctors.

Um, well, yeah, but the point is that— the point is that he would have gone down— other ones that would have done an even worse job.

Oh my God. Oh, this is a scary conversation.

It is a scary conversation because some people, because some people cannot take no for an answer. And you actually have to say, well, but all you can do is stand in your integrity and say, I don't, I'm not seeing any progress here. Yeah, because a shonky helper will just take the money and go, yes, yes, yes.

Yeah.

And you can end up, and they can spend, I mean, I know, I can think of people off the top of my head who have spent decades in therapy, for example, and have never made any progress.

Yeah.

Oh yeah, because the, because the therapist is happy to take their $400 an hour or whatever and keep them spinning in their own, keep them spinning their own thing. Because, you know, as long as it keeps— well, the cash cow keeps coming in.

Oh God, it's so gross.

That's— it's, it's really gross.

It is really gross. I want to hear your story. I want to hear your fucked up spiritual fraud story.

This is okay. Now, this is really screwed up, and this is a bigger person, right?

Because the guys that we're talking about are all pretty little, little people.

Well, this was a little guy too, but he managed to do a lot of harm, and it became a big, uh, thing for a while in Australia. Oh wow. So yeah, so what happened was this— his story— and I'm, and I'm going to use real names because it's actually in the public record.

Okay, go for it.

So with this, there was this woman called Jan, and she ended up having— she, she liked performance art, and she started a movement, uh, where people, uh, called clowning. And the whole point about clowning was that people would put a little red nose on and they would, through performance, uh, free themselves up emotionally. That seemed to be like her shtick. She really wanted people to cultivate their inner child, and it was a very valuable thing on that basis because people who had maybe had upbringings where their inner child wasn't properly nurtured, etc., and who had their inner child stifled and never had a full expression, were able to, in Jan's clowning spaces, explore that part of themselves and really gain value from that.. And it appealed to a certain particular sort of personality, right?

I'd do it.

Okay, what?

I'd do it.

Yeah, exactly, just as a fun activity. Yeah, it sounds fun. Yeah, it's just like fun. Now I know a lot of people have problems with clowns and have irrational fears, but that's another thing. Not every clown is John Wayne Gacy. But the point I'm making is that it was a thing, right? It was a thing to do. And a friend of mine was into it and she got a lot of benefit out of it, etc. Now the thing is that John— Jan became involved with a man called Ken Dyer. Now Ken Dyer was a guy who was probably always going to do what he did. It's just that it took a while for him to get it off the ground. I think Ken was probably in his 50s or 60s before he actually had his thing going. And he claimed to have gotten secret knowledge from Tibetans, and he claimed that who have gotten, um, he had had experiences, I think, with Scientology, etc., etc., and learned some stuff. And I think he was like one of these spiritual shonks in the making. It was all— the potential was always there. Now, people were attracted to Jan and the clowning, but Ken probably saw the op— and this is, I'm just speculating about what he probably saw— was that he probably saw that he was a group of right group of people who, uh, were ready to, uh, be looking for that next guru. And so he said it, so he set with Jan up because Jan was like totally— she married— he married Jan and they ended up being a team and they created something called Kenja. Now, Kenja ended up as one of my— and this is what's really interesting. So I'm about 16 at the time, and I had highly intelligent, sophisticated friends. And one of my highly intelligent, sophisticated 16-year-old friends called it an executive religion, which I thought was very funny because it, it had all the hall— Kenja ended up having all the hallmarks of an executive religion. It had a philosophy. Piecemeal, taken from a whole bunch of different areas, wrapped up, I think, with a little bit of Scientology stuff, etc., etc.

Sounds like Tony Robbins.

Yeah, exactly. Yeah, exactly. The point is we're separating the knowledge or the tools from the actual— from the actual person. But the dynamic that he ended up creating was a group of people and a sort of a mini cult. Right. And there was things that happened in Kenja, for example. But basically Kenja's one product, which was something called processing. Now, aside from the talks that Ken would like, you'd charge money for, you know, you'd pay your due and he'd have this talk every Thursday night or whatever about stuff. The self-development, spiritual, new agey, new thought stuff, like cherry-picked blah blah blah. But he'd always have this product called Surfing— not, um, Processing. So Processing worked like this: he would train people and certify them, and they would be paying a lot of money to Ken directly in order to get this processing certification happening. So pay him a lot of money. And then he would— and then the processing was basically this: you would sit across another person, right? And you would put your legs over their legs in a position where you were quite open energetically.

And you put your hands down their pants?

No, no, no, no, it wasn't. It wasn't.

That was really bad. I should not have—

that was really bad. But, but, but I mean, the logic of it was that if you were in a position, it was a bit like being in the position that the dog is when the dog is on its back and showing the belly. Okay. From a, from a mammalian energetic point of view, it, it, it, a dog won't do that unless it trusts you, unless it trusts you. Yeah. Right. Right.

Mm-hmm.

It just won't because that's so vulnerable. Right.

Yeah. Yeah.

But it's also intimate. So what you do is on the belly, you're, you're, you're basically as a human, as a, as a, as a human meat suit, you open your meat suit up to that. So what it does, and then what you do, it's really, it sounds really ridiculous when I describe it, but what you do is basically stare into a person's eye, eyes, right? Now the processor is theoretically creating a space open for that person in order for that person to just simply experience and feel stuff, right? I think from a psychological and evolutionary biological idea, it makes sense that if you're looking at somebody's eyes, you're going to be vulnerable. So it's about going into the vulnerability space. Now, when you're going into the vulnerability space, uh, what I'm— what I conjecture happens is that your thoughts will go down a particular path. And if there's anything, stuff inside that, inside you that needs to be looked at, that's going to be the time that you're going to start looking at it. So you might be replaying old trauma. You might be replaying old tapes of parents being horrible to you, nasty situations, lessons that you have learned that no longer serve you, all that sort of stuff. Now, the processor would then do that sort of Cleary aura type stuff, right? Again, whether or not it's real.

Yeah, I'm like, okay, I'm not buying it, but yeah, okay, fine. No, no, no, it's actually, uh, my, my, my bullshit radar is going going up.

But let's go. Okay, anyway, the point is that people were in the '80s paying $40 for a session like that. That's, that's something— that's like paying $200 now for a session. Yeah, that's right, right. So they would be doing this stuff. Now funnily enough, it's actually extremely effective. It is actually extremely effective, and you're coming from a good place, it is actually extremely effective. I haven't done it in years, but I was introduced to it at the age of 16 by a friend of a friend of mine, and she was terribly interested in the clowning aspect but then got sucked into the whole Kenja thing, right? I can tell you why it was very effective, at least for me. Now, there would be people that would be paying $40 for these sessions and be doing it a couple of times a week, and they would be doing it for years and years and years. And theoretically, every time they would be clearing, clearing stuff, very much like the psychological idea that you're full of this bank what they call— well, what, what Ken called bank, which is basically old stuck energy that needed to be removed so that you could be your authentic self and operate at a higher level, right? But what I observed, even as a 16-year-old, was that there's a lot of people— all of these people were having these cult-like relationships with Ken, and they were acting like a bunch of losers, right? They weren't actually progressing in their lives. Their lives weren't actually getting any better. They were still chaotic. Anyway, I think I paid for one session once, and it was the only time I paid for it. The rest of the time, it was like, I would, I would do deals with people for service, etc. And that wasn't anything salacious. It was like, I mean, at one point I was even just cleaning somebody's house in order to do this, just to have the experience of it all. But tell you what happened. Occasionally he would have like these weekends and they would have this whole— they'd like have 200 people that were each paying like $50 apiece. So it was a really good earner, um, to— for people to have the privilege of sitting aside each other, around each other, and staring at each other's eyes and feeling what they were feeling. Then people would cry, people would start laughing. It was like, obviously it was like The '60s Encounter Sessions. Do you know what they were?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's, it's, it sounds like, um, EST. EST. Yes, exactly. That's what I was going to say.

Yeah, that, that, that later ended up evolving to the Landmark Forum or whatever, whatever, whatever. Anyway, this old stuff. So at one of these sessions, right, I'm— there's this 25-year-old guy and I'm 16, and this is in a and I had had some dealings with him because he was into clowning. And his name— what was his name? Peter. Peter. So Peter and I would just sit and see. And in the process of doing that, somewhere in that session, in this large group of people, I went off into spiritual la-la land. I had some sort of epiphany. I connected to a higher force. I had never had an experience like that before. It was like I took everything on board and I just ran with it. And I said, okay, fine, what? And I had what I could only describe as a profound spiritual experience. My body felt as if it was diffuse with electricity, like, and I felt I could feel my aura, I could feel everything charge up. And I was just like, and I went into, and I went into this sort of ecstasy, a spiritual.

That sounds pretty fun.

It was amazing. It was an amazing experience. Peter disappeared into the background, right? Right. And I was just like floating in the alternative space and then in the alternative space. I didn't know that it was alternative space, like, but I was just, I was, I was doing my first, without even realizing, my first big Transurf in the alternative space, but completely. And I was like, And to this day I remember the feeling because I had this— I've had this experience several times since, outside of this context, because once you connect to that, you just have it. And I just went, 'Wah blah blah.' And what happened was that in this group of 200 people, suddenly everybody got quiet because they realized that Peter and I had somehow stumbled into the alternative space. And I was like spinning right now. I had previously told Ken to his face, I don't trust you. Which—

so Ken decided to take your wallet out of your back pocket while you were in the alternate?

No, no, no, because it was full of people, the people. And so Ken, so Ken came up to me and he's, he's looking at me with his smiley old man face like that I didn't trust, but I was— I couldn't have cared less about him. But he was like, oh, because I think it was the first time that something actually genuine happened in one of his groups.

Oh, he was like, he was like, oh cool, I'm gonna figure out a way to sell this.

Probably, probably. I don't know what it was or what was going on because I was in that moment on another plane of reality. Yeah, right. I was just— and he said, how is it feeling? How, how are you? And I was going, uh, I was speechless. I was— and I wasn't interested in the real world because I was just in this— in the pure alternative space, right? Anyway, so what happened was a group of people just took me into a back room, and they took Peter into a back room. Right. And basically what, what, what they did in the back room was they just got me to touch material objects just to ground me again, because I was off with the— I was off with the spiritual fairies. I was completely in somewhere else. And so they had to bring me back down to earth. But I also think in retrospect that they were scared shitless because they didn't know where this was going to go.

And it sounds like it went somewhere bad.

Well, for me, not, not at all.

Yeah, but they— something happened.

Well, the point— yes. So what happened was, for me, it was like I felt as if huge weights had been lifted off my shoulders. The energy that I'd been carrying from my horrible childhood had been lifted, and that I just cleared a huge amount.

You experienced what he said you were going to experience.

Yes, exactly what he had promised everybody. But I actually I actually did it. Yeah, I actually had it. So I had this, this profound, wonderful experience. And eventually, I wish in retrospect he just left me alone, they just left me alone to just go down my own path. But at the end of the day, I think that they were scared shitless because they thought, I think that in their own mind, my God, this is real, and he might just die of spiritual ecstasy in this moment. Although I didn't feel at any point that my life was in danger. I didn't feel it because it was just a completely blissful experience. It was like a mini, it was like Satori, right? Whatever it is those Zen monks were going for, blah, blah, blah.

Yeah.

You go, wow, if this is it, if this was it, yep, bring it on more, bring more of it on. It gave me a glimpse of the greater, greater reality. Bring it on. But Peter, though, goes into his room, and he had had— and he had been— he had lost his father when he was 12 years old, and he had never gotten over that. And he went into grief.

Uh-oh, did Peter commit suicide?

Much later, yes. Oh, and that's— and that's the same. And that— well, you, you sort of like asked the question. I was leaning to that story, but that often happens when people ask the story. They just don't let me get to the story and let me do the big reveal when I want to make the big reveal. I'm sorry, I'm a storyteller, right? I want to be able to tell the big bombshell when I don't— you screwed that up. That's okay, let's just move on. The point is, the point, the point I'm making is that Peter went into grief. And later I discovered, because I, I established some sort of friendship with his mother, and, and, um, it was And because she was a lovely woman. But Peter never gotten over the death of his father. And I think what happened was that he'd put Ken in the father place. But the problem is that Ken was a toxic father who was creating a mini cult and creating emotional dependencies around people. Meanwhile, me, I'm in this, hey, emotion, this spiritual independence place, like, hey, I'm me, I'm this power. And that's pretty powerful when you're 16 years old to suddenly get this sort of stuff.

Wow.

Yeah, in a sense, it— in, in its sense, it set the tone for the rest of my life. Whatever other challenges I would have, and there were many, I still always maintained that sense, that core sense that in some profound way, divinity, God, the universe, whatever call— call you call it, loved me.

Yeah, you had access.

I had access to that love. I had opened myself up to that love and It was great. Peter, however, spun it— spun into grief, etc., and was crying, crying, crying. I didn't find out this until later. It was also like— it was also so— once— so I don't know how he was handling it from a— once that was going on, obviously that was causing a buzz in the hall because they'd never seen anything like this happen, and nothing like this had ever happened before. I don't know how he was managing it from a PR point of view, but he did obviously something. When I finally emerged out of the room, I got this standing ovation like I had achieved something major. And I just took a bow because what do you do when people give you a standing ovation? You took a bow. But I also felt, got to be careful here because this is not a performance for me.

And you're a real person going through a real experience.

Real experience, yes. And I was being exposed to like this sort of like, I thought it was a bit circusy. I thought If anything, what should have happened was it should have been accepted with silent reverence. Yeah, that I had entered into an— is a sacred space, and that should have been respected. But that's okay. I took my bow, but I didn't allow it to touch my ego because I had no ego at that point. There wasn't— Xavier didn't have an ego. There wasn't anything to defend. I was just— he was just enthralled by this incredible experience. And that— the glow of that lasted for days. And Peter and I later talked about and spent a day together to try to understand and to try to process the experience. But it became obvious to me in my discussions with him that what he experienced wasn't like what I had experienced. He may have had a glimpse of, of heaven, but then sort of started going down hell, hell stuff. Anyway, I continued with Kenya for a little while afterwards because I thought, well, if this is going to happen, what else might happen? But at the end, I realized after a couple of months that I was going to get everything that I was ever going to get from the experience. So I left.

Mm-hmm. Which is natural. And what should happen?

Yeah, exactly. So I just left. But of course, my friend continued to be there because she was completely sucked in, etc. Later on, she woke up and realized what, what the hypocrisies and the lies and all of that sort of stuff, and the dynamic was all about creating dependencies, not independencies. That there were people that were 40 years old and they were unemployed and not getting anywhere, and except their whole lives was kinder and the kinder activities and the clowning became part of the kinder thing. And it just— but, and it would continue, it actually continued to grow after that. Point. But what happened was that, as also often happens, is that people started going in and being damaged by it.

Yeah.

And then it became something that a journalist became involved and started investigating it and started looking into the whole Kenja thing and how people were being conned into spending, separating thousands of dollars from their own wok pockets for this endless processing that never seemed to get anywhere. Right.

Yeah.

And I had spent $40 and I had gotten Satori. Thanks.

Yeah.

Thanks. Yeah. Yeah.

You just, just like I just, like I tell people, like, you know, especially with the, um, the one-on-one, when I was doing one-on-one, I would say, listen, I'll give you one block of one-on-one sessions, which is 4, and then it's done. I want you to get what you need and I want you to get down the road. I am not interested in having anyone for any reason connected to me as a means to—

Yeah, because you don't want to be— because the thing is that we're not psychologists and we're not psychiatrists and we're not qualified for that. And psychiatry and psychology work under a very interesting basis, and that is to heal the inner child to some extent and to develop the inner adult and to quiet the crazy inner parent. Right. In order to do that, you have to do something which is called reparenting, which means— which is one possible path. And this— and this path means that you say, well, I had sucky parents that never showed me how to live properly. So what I'm going to do is I'm going to quiet those sucky parent voices and ignore them. And the voice of rational reason nurturing parenting will be the voice of the psychotherapist or the psychiatrist who will put themselves in the parent place and create the environment in which that guidance can be absorbed by the inner child. But in order to do that, the inner child— the, the, the patient or the client has to be very open, and the, uh, therapist has to be coming from a place of utter integrity.

Yes. Because this is how— this is exactly how the people—

how people get taken advantage of, is they allow that character in that does not have good intentions, and we even might have good intentions but is clumsy and doesn't know what they're doing and is convinced that they know what they're doing, but they don't.

Yes, yes.

So, so it's not even about intention, it's sometimes just about skill. And you've got to be really careful about this sort of stuff and how you deal with somebody, which is why I always say to people who are coming to me for for the, for the, for the Transurfing one-on-ones. I'm saying I'm not a therapist. All I can do is point you to particular techniques that might help you in your particular situation. We will refine those techniques to help you, and then you need to go away and do that. But if you need psychotherapy, I've got people who can help you.

Even you go away.

Even you yourself have said that, that you needed therapy, but what Transurfing did was help you to find the best therapist.

Yes.

Right.

Yes.

The tools of Transurfing help you find the best help when you need it. But Transurfing in and of itself will not solve every problem, nor is it designed to. It's a tool.

Or is anything? Or is anything?

Nor is it, nor is anything. But the point is, we're trying to, as we always say, we're trying to increase people's batting average on making good decisions and finding a good— and deciding that you need therapy and then finding a good therapist who can actually help you achieve your therapeutic goals under a therapeutic contract that can then be measurably— you have the measurable outcomes. I, I want to quit smoking. I will achieve a successful therapeutic outcome when I have successfully quit smoking. Measurable, right? I'm an alcoholic. I will achieve a measurable outcome when I can, when I can stop drinking to the point where it kills me. Right.

Yeah.

And that might mean I stop alcohol altogether or I completely renegotiate my relationship with alcohol so that I can have one drink and not feel like I have to have 50 others.

Yeah.

Right. So these are measurable outcomes. It's like when, when people come to me for the one-on-one with Transurfing, I say, okay, what would be a measurable outcome? What would it look like that you succeeded in this when you have achieved certain things, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. So let's have an achievable goal. And do that. Anyway, the point is I had all of these wonderful experience— I had this wonderful experience and then I got out. But other people got in and I learned eventually later that Peter committed suicide. And he committed suicide about 10 or 15 years after the experience that we'd had together. I hadn't very— I didn't have anything to do with him. After— much after that, which is a shame because he was a really lovely person. But I think that he just got caught up in the whole Kenja trap, sold his soul to a damaging father figure.

Oh God.

And a lot— and, and spent a lot of time— and even his brothers, I only knew one of his brothers because he had two other brothers, and I only knew the younger one very briefly. And the, and the younger brother expressed to his mother like, is Peter all right? Because he's really wrapped up in this whole Kenja thing. And I met the brother and he just tried Kenja for a bit and said, okay, not for me, moving on. Yeah, obviously had processed the whole father death grief thing in a completely different way to his brother. Anyway, people kept going and it started getting to a point where people were complaining, that families were complaining Yeah, they were losing their family members. Exactly, exactly. Like this, oh my God, because they say that they were, they were saying, you know, they're all wrapped up in this stuff and they're not working, or they, or they're doing like really shit jobs to pay for this endless processing and blah blah blah.

Yeah, right.

And so people started getting— and of course when people, when journalists start looking into something, they say, well, what's going— what's going on and what's happening here? So I started looking into it, and it started— Ken just started getting into the press and getting really bad press. This was years after I had no longer had anything to do with them, and it was a bit surprising for me. And I only found about this years later, and somebody did a documentary that's still available. You can watch it, it's called Beyond Our Ken, and it looks into the dynamics of what became the Kenja cult. It never got really big, but it was big enough in that it was not very— it's not very Australian to have cults. We're not, we're not a cultish sort of society in that sense.

Yeah, it doesn't sound, it doesn't sound like it's a typical—

it's a typical thing. Yeah, it's not part of— it's the— in order to have cults operating, you really need to have a sort of culture. So when, for example, the Osho Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh and his orange people, um, ended up having little communities in, in various parts of the world, that was a bit also a bit odd. It just was un-Australian, mate. So yeah, because it was an Australian, mate, um, people weren't as, as vulnerable to it. But the fact of the matter is, um, And I was quite saddened to hear about Peter's suicide, um, but it— yeah, I think— don't think he was the only one. Um, and I know that some people had a really, really bad time and were just totally burnt by it. At the end of the day, after a lot of investigation or whatever, and Ken was being taken to court and all of that sort of stuff, Ken himself committed suicide.

Oh. Ooh, nice twist on the story.

Yeah.

Wow, wow, wow, wow, wow.

Yes, like too many people in this space who might be under a lot of scrutiny and who might find that there is probably a lot of substance in that scrutiny, uh, he chose to take the easy way out.

Ouch.

I think, I think, rather than confront his confusers and take accountability. Well, have I done?

Yeah, I mean, yeah, it can, it can, it can come down to that. I mean, this is going to be, um, you know, a topic actually in my book of where sadly Transurfing originated here in the US was in a cult in California that is a bizarre place. I mean, they weren't practicing Transurfing but that's where the knowledge sort of landed when it first hit US soil. And there were some stuff going on there. I'm like, geez Louise, this is absolutely not where this knowledge should—

and this is—

if it thrives there, then it's, it's gonna— it'll get tainted and it'll be gone.

Well, well, this is the thing. What you have— what And ultimately what happens is, I think, I don't know whether Ken ever had good intentions or whether, or whether he started just believing in his own godhood. I mean, I think he was a little bit delusional. I heard, for example, that somebody said to me once that he said to her that he had this meeting where he was, he, one of these, these large group meetings where he was so in his, in his power and his energy that he gave every woman in the room an orgasm, right? So who knows what— I mean, that's, that's a sort of really egotistic type of crap that, you know, that something is really wrong. But my own, my own friend who was there after a while, long, was in there for a few years even after I left, and then realized that it was all a bit chunky and said, well, we didn't— we, we couldn't see through it because we were so emotionally trapped.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's the, that's, that's the thing. And I think that's kind of Why, you know, this is a, this is an emotional subject for me because here on one side I'm spearheading this knowledge into a little thing of let's everyone wake up, and then there's some people that are coming into the space that are looking to me in odd ways that I'm not necessarily comfortable with —What, projecting onto you some sort of guru mantle? Yeah, some, some, yeah, totally. And, and, and also the knowledge. And, you know, people that— I'm like, it's about waking up. Don't fall asleep to this. Don't fall asleep to this. This is the opposite of what the knowledge is asking you to do. Wake up. Take control for yourself. Do, do you. Don't do me. Don't do what the knowledge— you— what your perspective of the knowledge is. Like, do you. So, you know, that's— it's kind of like— it's, um, it's a weird—

it's a weird little thing that I forgot I had a mute. I forgot. Yeah, we have mute.

We have mute. So I think we can wrap it up with this because, um, we're sort of beating a dead horse here at this point.

Yes, we've said what we needed to say.

We've said what we've needed to say. The takeaway here is, if, if I would like to offer anyone a takeaway, ask lots of questions. Don't just give money to people. Make sure that there's a money-back guarantee. Don't give someone thousands of dollars You know, I know some of these people are, um, selling things that are thousands and thousands of dollars with no money-back guarantee because I've heard of people getting taken on these things. You know, courses are courses. That's one thing.

And, or, or at least say, ask the questions. If there's some sort of exchange of money, make sure that the person says, okay, we're going to try this once. Yeah. And if it doesn't work, and if it doesn't work You're not locked into this endless $4,000 lifetime thing.

Yeah, like, uh, what was his name? Gupta. I mean, Gupta, $4,000, $3,000, $4,000. Um, actually, I think it was more than that now that I look back on it. Whatever it was, high pressure, you got to do it now, the offer is only good for 24 hours. What the fuck? You know, why do you gotta— if you're so confident in your service Why you gotta do that to me, yo? Like, what is that? What is your— what are you doing? So being cautious of this sort of thing, um, taking, take, taking away the, the, the— and I love to say this, this is one of my, you know, I, I, I, this is what I'm about. Do it yourself. Do it. Figure it out yourself. Read the book, watch the free content. Do it yourself. Try to do it yourself first.

And if you're using this properly, you're not going to be tempted to be the guru, the full-time guru. You're not going to be tempted to do that, that whole thing, because you're not turning it into a business that you rely on for your living. Yeah.

See what I mean? I'm interested in, I'm interested in seeing people get well.

Not, you know, if anything, if one of, if anything, one of the things that principles of Transurfing is, is that your source of supply should come from many different areas, including your money supply. If you've only got one source of money, you're not doing it properly. It's access to potential. Yeah. You're not doing it properly. You're not doing life properly. You're putting all your eggs in one basket. Yeah.

That's so true.

You learn to have multiple money streams happening so that you're not overly dependent on any one. The problem is, of course, that what if you do have a lot of money streams and one of them is just turning into gold and keeps building it? The temptation is to just, is to just ignore everything else and to go down that path. I understand that, but at the same time, that shouldn't, that shouldn't mean that you start behaving badly.

Yeah, exactly. You shouldn't compromise. You shouldn't compromise your— yeah, you shouldn't compromise quality or your moral integrity because you see an opportunity to do so, you know. And what should—

in an ideal world, Ken would have been an independently wealthy businessman who just started doing this as a gift to the world. Yeah. And just said it and blah blah blah and been aware of the the interactions and none— and there's enough of psychology to realize that in his— many people's minds, he would have been a parental figure. And instead of letting his ego in the way and allowing people to look at him as if he was going to be the answer to everything, and, and just said, oh, put on the brakes here, huh? Right? I'm not creating a dependency here.

No, he actually encouraged that. So ego— I did a video on this that's probably out by the time this episode airs. It's called Ego Done Right, and it talks about the difference. Because a lot of people accuse me of being egotistical on the channel. They're like, oh my God, this chick's ego is huge. And I'm like, yeah, you know what, my ego is huge, but it's the ego of my higher self, and I'm working from a higher place, and I'm thriving healthy and, you know, doing well. And for the people in my life, their interactions with me are thriving, healthy, and doing well with their interactions with me. So I can rock a relatively large ego, but I feel as though I'm doing it right. What you need to be cautious of is people that are rocking egos in this space that are not doing it right, kind of like Gupta or some of these other dudes, you know, that are—

or Chad, who might be looking for any endless affirmation, or Chad who's looking for numbers, or Cindy who's looking for vanity metrics.

Vanity metrics, who knows? Yeah, metrics. Yes, totally. That's, that's, that's what it's about, is, is the ego coming from higher or lower self.

And you can just, and you can, and you can really just tell to a certain extent, because some people are going to have a bad experience no matter who who they interact with, because that's on them. But if in the vast majority of cases you come out of people interacting you and they say, you know, my interactions with Renee were quite positive and I have nothing bad to say about her, and you get enough of those stories and people will start getting the message after a while that you're a person of integrity. Yeah. And that you really want the best for them.

Yeah, exactly. I'm not trying to sell my— I'm not trying to sell my stuff anybody here, I'm trying to tell you, it's— if you're in doubt, if you have questions, don't spend any money at all. But I would rather, I would rather you not spend any money at all than hear about you getting ripped off by Chad.

Exactly. Because, because for every— because for everything that you— every product you sell where somebody feels ripped off, they're gonna tell people it's not worth it. I mean, even from a rational point of view, even from a rational point of view, Yeah, it just makes sense that why would you want— why would you risk selling something to somebody, then they feel ripped off, they then tell 10 other people that they've been ripped off? That's like negative marketing. Gary, it's just negative. It's great. It's crazy. Even if you can't— even if you can't trust our integrity, trust our intelligence. I mean, would we do something so stupid as to provide a shonky product that didn't actually work? Yeah, well, some people do. Some people do because that's what their game— and that's completely crazy to me, but that's another topic for another day. Some people are short-gaming it. Yeah, exactly, exactly, short-gaming it. But this, but this, that's, that's the take-home for me. For this whole thing. We're playing a long game, and a long game requires building up a reputation over time for integrity, for providing quality service, whatever that service might be. And then you— and then people say, who are you? I don't know you. And I say, here's my track record. Yeah, there it is. Make it. Yeah. And if they go against— if they don't want to engage with you for whatever reason, Good luck. Yeah, if they're the sort of people who actually are looking for somebody to cheat them, they will find it. They just won't find it in you. Yes.

And, and energetically, for us, it behooves us to do long game, long game strategy, let our reputation speak, because then we don't have to go about either battling with the people trying to come at you to get their money back because they're not happy, or fueling constant energy into the smoke and mirrors so we can try to convince people. Fuck it, I'm not into that game. I'd rather, I'd rather spend the rest of my time doing my other businesses than playing that. That, oh my God, no thank you.

And to me, it's insane. You've only got to see a certain amount of time, you only have a certain amount of energy when you're operating in a meat suit. So the idea is that why not just channel that time and energy into creating a quality product and marketing it well enough so that the people who need to find it will find it, rather than, rather than creating this elaborate spinning plate smoke and mirror situation to enthrall people, and then they all go away feeling that they've been cheated or they haven't. Wow. It just all feels off. Why? I mean, again, why bother? For the millions of people watching this, if you— if for whatever reason you are determined to be cheated, we can't help you. All we can do is present this to you. But if you're going to be cheated, maybe that's your soul frail and you'd actually need to live that.

Maybe there's some lesson there for you. There's some—

there's some waking up that needs to be done. And we can't help you with that. What we can help you with is if you're the person, the person who is genuinely interested in improving their lives a little bit and making a valuable energetic time money exchange with us, whatever it is, whatever the currency is, if it's even, it's just watching a whole bunch of videos that are free content out there, even that's all you do, but your life improves. Fine. Good. We've done it. Do it. And if you ask, and if you, yeah. And if you, and if you're asking what Renee and Xavier are getting out of it, Well, I can just say from my point of view, I find these conversations incredibly stimulating. They help me.

And this helps me get out of bed in the morning.

Yeah, they, yeah, they create clarity for me and they create and they open things up for me. And so I'm happy to continue to do this.

This is not our, this is not our bread and butter, y'all.

By all means, by all means. But even if it were to become the bread and butter, it would be just one bread and butter. Yes, it would not be the be-all and end-all. That's it. It would not be— it would not be the be-all and end-all. And even if it became— oh no. And even if it became the be-all and end-all, by that time surely would have— we would have spent so much time playing the long game of integrity and quality that it's just— we wouldn't have the energy to do it badly.

Yeah, yeah. We just wouldn't—

we just wouldn't have the energy. We just wouldn't have the energy or the mentality to to, to, to be fraudulent. Yeah, because it just is— we just wouldn't be in that space. We— it would be just as foreign. But in the journey to get there, I'm certain that we will be challenged at various times, and the people will show up purely just to teach us how to protect ourselves from people like that. Cindy and I would— yeah, exactly, the Chads, the Guptas, the Sindhis of the world, the Mr. Bozos. Yes, they will come. And my invitation to the millions of people watching is that it would probably be a good idea if you, if you led your life like that as well. Play the long game. Yeah, play the long game. Integrity. Play the long game of integrity and, and quality. Play the long game of awareness and enlightenment. Play the long game of being willing to engage with all and to find out stuff that you might not, might not particularly want to find out. But it's there.

And try to learn it, and try to learn it yourself rather than taking the shortcut by paying for a course or coaching, you know.

I mean, not, not, not believe— well, at least not believe that the course is going to be like going to solve every problem. Yeah, that's it. Make, make the best of the course, make the best of the one-on-one, make the best of whatever it is.

Yeah, but to think that it's going to be your golden golden ticket.

No, it's all that it will do is it will take you one step further, but that might be the step in the right direction that you need to take, and then you can continue on forever. Yes, right. Do it. What I'm saying is know when enough is enough. Don't be like the people in Kindred that were endlessly paying for stuff and never getting a result.

That's it. That's the, that's the people I really want to this to reach.

If you're going to pay for stuff, pay for it, but get something out of it and then move on. Now, if you need— if you then need to get something else, level up. And if you level up and you need to, and then you need to do pay for something else, then do it. But every time you pay for something, make sure you're getting the value.

Yes, rather than just endlessly paying for crap.

Exactly. It's like people who buy books and they pay $30 for a book. Okay, it's only $30, but if it sits on the shelf and never gets read, what was the point? Yeah. And if it gets written, the lessons aren't absorbed. But what was the point? Yep. Right. When you're doing— when you're, when you're exchanging your energy for something, your focus for something else, because even if you're watching the free stuff, you're spending time with us and that's time you'll never get back. Yeah.

It's your non-new, non-renewable resource.

You're spending your most valuable currency, which is time. Yeah. And you're saying so, so make pretty— you've got to get really clear on, am I getting something out of this? Because even your time, man, is valuable. It has a value, right? Yeah. Don't engage with this content if you're— if you, if you don't come in with it in the intent that you're going to learn something or you're going to be enlightened from it, right? Because that time is time you will not get back.

And I'd rather fool yourself that you're doing something when you're not.

Exactly, exactly.

Paying for courses doesn't mean you're self-developing. Exactly.

And, and, and, and, and, and in— and but also spending, even not paying for something, you're always paying in some way, even if it's with your attention and time. You're always paying. So ask yourself, was this worth the time I spent on it? And if it isn't, you've got to ask yourself, well, maybe it's somewhere else. Yep, that's it. But if it is working for you, then go for it until it stops working for you. And then maybe you need to go away for a while and do some other stuff, and maybe you can come back to whatever it is later. Maybe that's going to be the path. Maybe your path is going to be windier, but at least be on alert for the people who are obviously going to cheat you.

It's so— it— I think we nailed it on this one. I kind of feel like it was a— I kind of feel like it was a little, little dirty dig and, uh, you know, some of the back— the background, uh, behind the scenes stuff. And but at the end of the day, there's a message here for everyone, including us, you know. And, um, I hope everybody enjoyed this podcast. It's, um, it's real, y'all. I mean, these are— it's, it's been real. It's been real. Well, thank you, Xavier. That was a lovely conversation about spiritual fraud, fraudulent activity, and, um, I look forward to the next one.

Okay, until next time, millions of people, ciao! Bye! Bye!