#26 The Hidden Cost of Power: Zemurray’s Final Chapter (Pt. 2)

Welcome back to another episode, and today this episode is really special to me because this book is absolutely incredible writing. And this is by Rich Cohen, and I know we're in part 2, so it's not really a big, uh, difference in terms of part 1, but this episode is especially special to me because there's something about this book and the way that it's written, to the point where at the very end it all culminates. And I really want to show that to my best abilities based off of what he said. So I'm going to be reading a lot from the book today, but I want to start off with the maxim theme throughout this story. And I really want you guys to keep this in mind while you're listening to this because this is really going to change your perception of how you look at, like, when you're reading the book, but also when you're listening to me talk about it. And the maxim theme throughout the story is, it doesn't matter how much business you do, when you lose your reputation, you lose everything. Let me just repeat this. It doesn't matter how much business you do, when you lose your reputation, you lose everything. And this was said by Warren Buffett and Charlie Munger. Now, let's just unpack this real quick. When you lose your reputation, you lose everything. So you could do a ton of business, but the moment you lose your reputation, you are losing everything. And I just want you to keep that in mind while we go through this story, because this is a crazy story and one of the probably craziest episodes I have ever done for my podcast, just because there's a lot of corruption, but a lot of good business knowledge within that. And so my goal today is trying to pull out, um, show you the contrast between corruption, like the ditch on one side, um, the tail that you should be cautious of avoiding. You want to avoid this as much as possible, but you also want— you— so the reason why you should listen to this is because you will see at the end of Sam Zimurray's life, you will see that this is something to beware of, but also there's a lot of interesting, cool factors within this whole story. So it's something that's really cool, something to beware of, but something— some things you want to take from Zamuri in just a business sense. So there's a lot of different ways where Zamuri is very, um, not corrupt, but his corporation is very corrupt in some ways, and and I'll let you all decide what you guys think of Zamuri. This does relate to Banana Republic, that whole idea, but I don't want to go too much into why you should listen to this. More of just keep in mind that this is very— it's a very cautionary tale, and it's really— it's a beautiful— like, how it's written, it's just beautiful. And I want you to keep in mind just going from part 1 to part 2. So part 1 is very much like, this guy is really good at business. He was young, he was tall, um, gainly, penniless, as it says in the back of the book. And I want you to keep— I want you to keep that in mind where, all right, this is the guy. Now what, what is happening in this next part? Um, we talked through like how he lose— he lost his son, all that stuff. So I want to start off with a timeline, but before we do that, I want to do a quote. And it says, a company like a nation cannot survive without its mythology. I thought that was beautiful writing by Rich Cohen and just a good quote. But I want to repeat that: a company like a nation cannot survive without its mythology. When you think about all the different mythologies, just like, just go down the list. So like Rome, you think about Rome, Athens, Greece, America, like the, the founding mythology around America with Paul Bunyan, all those. A company is exactly the same in, in a different way. It's a beautiful, different way. And with this, there's a certain mythology around Sam the Banana Man, the El Gringo, El Popo, like what all his nicknames, right? The Russian. Um, all that. There's a mythology around his company, and now it's United Fruit, but it used to be, um, I, I can't say the word, QML, whatever. Um, but it— that— there's something cool about that where it's like, all right, this is really interesting, and there's a mythology around it. So I want to get into the timeline now because the timeline is one of the most important parts of the whole story. So we were in part 1, and part 2 is now kind of catching you guys up to speed. So this is years into the future. I want to say Sam is definitely older. I don't know what time frame this is, um, but he's getting a lot older. He's— I want to say either in his 50s or a little bit older than that. I know he dies probably in his 60s or 70s, but I'd have to pinpoint that. But this is years into the future. Sam is older. And so now, um, so just to catch you guys up and catch myself up, Sam, uh, Sam and United Fruit has like thousands, hundreds of thousands of acres in Honduras, Guatemala, all these different places. But what I want to focus on is Guatemala. And now Arbenz, and he's the president, Jacobo Arbenz, and I'm just going to say Arbenz is the new Guatemalan president. And he's very like, let's give to, let's give you guys the land. So he confiscates hundreds of thousands of acres from United Fruit. Because, um, he tried to— he didn't like United Fruit at all. He wanted to give the land to locals and have more thriving options because only 15% of the land from United Fruit was being cultivated. And so he passed a law, got it to— got it signed and everything to where it broke up United Fruit because they weren't cultivating a certain percentage of their land. And as you can tell from Zamori's personality of overthrowing a government, Honduras government to be exact, He doesn't let things happen to him easily. So he hired a guy named Edward Bernays. Now, this guy is really interesting. The first time I've ever heard about him or the first time I heard about him, I was just blown away. He has a crazy backstory and I won't get too much into that. He's not really a good guy, but his principles and just like things he's come up with are absolutely Crazy and really something to study if you're really into like studying people and the masses and all that. This is the guy. He is the man who invented public relations. Relations. That's how it said. So PR, basically he invented PR. I think PR is public relationships. I think that's the same thing. But this guy invented public relations. So Some of his books, including— you might have heard of him— um, Propaganda, The Engineering of Consent, and Crystallizing Public Opinion. Now, when you hear all these, you're probably like, all right, this is really interesting. Propaganda, probably not great. The Engineering of Consent, a little bit better. Crystallizing Public Opinion, well, the one thing when I hear about this, I'm like, who is this guy? Not because I want to steal his tactics, but just like if there was an undercover guy or a guy influencing masses, I want to know about him and I want to learn about him. Because like, you want to be— you want to make sure, all right, who's influence us— influence— influencing us nowadays? Like, who is doing that? And so when I think of that, I'm like, all right, if they had this guy in the '60s or '70s or whenever this was, they They must have some people now. So if you understand, like, all right, how do people plant propaganda? How do they do this? You'll understand better our times now. So I think this is really cool and really interesting. And he has some basic insights that I want to read. And I'm going to be reading a lot today because I can't put what the author has said into better words. And because he's just such a good writer. So I want to, I want to go into this. So this is the two basic insights that he had. So he had two basic insights from which everything else followed. First, modern society with its millions is essentially ungovernable. The public must instead be controlled by manipulation. The men who did this manipulating, in government or not, are the true leaders, philosopher kings. They need not manipulate all the people, only the few thousand who set the agenda. The drivers of history are not the people, in other words, nor the elite who influence the people, but the PR men who influence the elite who influence the people. Those who manipulate the unseen mechanic— mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power, wrote Bernays. We are governed, our minds molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested largely by men we have never heard of. I find this really, um, revolutionary in my mind because when I am reading this— and that's just the first insight— when I'm reading this, I'm like Okay, what is happening nowadays? Are there people that we don't know of influencing the culture, starting things that we've probably never heard of? Why are people doing it like that? And so when I read this, I'm like, all right, this is really interesting. I want to learn more about Édouard Bernays. And it's really interesting how he's studying, um, and really influencing people, um, just in his culture and in his day. And that was something that really stood out to me. As this guy is not normal. He is not a normal person by any means. He is very intelligent and very smart at what he does. And I just want you guys to keep this in mind while we're going through the story. Now, a second principle— second, the people can be made to behave as you want them to behave via the subconscious of the public mind. No one else believed such a thing existed, which can be directed with symbols and signs if we understand the mechanism and motives of the group mind. Aspernays. It is not possible to control— is it not possible to control the regiment, the masses, according to your will without their knowing about it? So basically, just to the two principles summed up together: modern society is essentially ungovernable. You can basically tell people anything you want. Two would be people can behave as you want them to behave via the sub— the subconscious of the public mind. So essentially what he did was spent a lifetime manipulating masses. When you think about that, you're just— I'm blown away. Not because it's a good thing necessarily, but just because learning about— I, I've heard a lot of stories about things, but to have it written down, and this guy has actually written about it, and I'm learning about this guy helping Sam's and Murray and all these other companies. That is crazy to have it written down. And this is really interesting because I've actually kind of borrowed this principle in a way. A principle from Bernays is if you want to advance a private interest, turn it into a public cause. So whatever you're doing, if it's for a good cause and is a private interest or it's like, let's say it's a company, if you're trying to make more turn that into a public cause. And this is very— it's a double-edged— it's a double-edged sword because on one side, people can very misuse this like Bernays did in some ways. But on the other side, if it is worthy of being a public cause, it should be that and not a private interest. And that's just really interesting. So really think about this and go through it. When you're listening to it, like, all right, or listening to this, like, is this— how can I use this? And not in a bad way, use it in a good way. And this is Bernays' strategy. And I'm going to be reading from page 189. And he basically said, and this is just crazy. So this is, this is the type of stuff that he was getting into. And this is really crazy when you think about it. Um, but by the 1930s, Bernays was a leading media figure in the United States. His clients included General Motors, General Electric, United States Radium, Eugene O'Neill, uh, Georgia O'Keeffe, Mutual Benefit Life Insurance, Columbia Broadcasting System, National Broadcasting, Cosmopolitan, Fortune, Good Housekeeping, Ladies' Home Journal, Time, Woolworths, Macy's, and the Government of India. He described his strategy as indirection. Keep that in mind, indirection. If General Motors hired Joe Schmo to sell cars, Joe Schmo would give an interview to Road and Track telling them the specs of the Thunderbird, engine size in cubic inches, 0 to 60, and so on. Given the same job, Bernays would lobby Congress for higher speed limits. All right, just listen to this. He would lobby them for higher speed limits, making it more fun fun to own a Thunderbird. Rather than fight for a single season of sales, he would make the world more friendly to his product. In the 1950s, uh, a bunch of publishers, including, um, these two people in Simon Schuster, concerned about a dip in numbers, hired Bernays. Did he go into schools and make the case for books? No. He talked to the architects and contractors who were designing the new suburban homes and convince them a house is not a modern house if it doesn't include built-in bookshelves. Indirection. He literally has indirection, period. I just— marinate, just like sit in that for a second. So instead of saying, hey, like, let's try to fight for a single season for a certain car, let me just hire the speed limits because it goes fast so people can buy this car so it can just like— they can have fun with it. With books, people, um, these two publishing companies were concerned that the number of books, uh, buying in books were going down. So he didn't go to the schools and say, hey, let's, you know, let's, uh, make the case for books. No, he talked to the architects and contractors of houses and said, hey, we should just put in built-in bookshelves because people then would want to buy books. That's a crazy story when you think about that. Like, the fact that that is happening— I mean, that was his strategy. It was indirection. And it's crazy because no one else would think like that. I've never heard of anyone else thinking like that. And It is really interesting. And so the next part about this is, um, Bernays' strategy for United Fruit. So what do you think he would do for United Fruit? Well, he is not a type of person you can fit in a box. He's always evolving, and evolving in a good way. Like, he's trying to— in, in some ways, these aren't necessarily good causes, but they're very interesting. He's thinking outside the box. So Bernays devised a strategy built on his trademark tricks. By 1952, Jacobo Arbenz was the issue, yet the solution was not direct confrontation— indirection. Think about that, indirection. That would not only increase Arbenz's standing, threatening United Fruit, but if the company could turn its corporate challenge— Arbenz is confiscating land— into a problem for the United States, Communists are infiltrating the isthmus, the, the U.S. government would take care of the rest. Never mind that Arbenz claimed no allegiance to the Communist Party. This is where the corruption comes in. Never mind that Arbenz claimed no allegiance to the Communist Party. Never mind that Arbenz cited Franklin Roosevelt as among his heroes. Never mind that many of Arbenz's policies that United Fruit found so offensive were patterned on the New Deal. The signs were evident for those who knew where to look. There was, for example, the fact that Arbenz included communists. So they're trying to find— Bernays is trying to find problems with Arbenz. There was, for example, the fact that Arbenz included communists in his government and seemed to support the spirit of communists as a whole. There was the fact of land reform, which replicated the policy of communist governments everywhere. There was also the rhetoric the interviews and the speeches. Arbenz sounded like a communist. There was the statecraft too, which like a star speeding away— just beautiful writing right here— shifted red. In 1953, when Joseph Stalin died, Arbenz declared a day of mourning in Guatemala. As it says in the Book of Matthew, you shall know them by their fruits. Bernays set various goals: convince the American people of the communist presence in Guatemala, Then 2, convince members of Congress the issue is a winner. Convince the CIA, which is the step 3, convince the CIA, which can actually do something on the ground, it's time to act. Bernays wouldn't make the world better for bananas. He would make the world better for American politicians, who would make the world better for the CIA, which would make the world better for bananas. And then he does the same thing again, indirection. Period. Indirection. So this is truly a crazy story because when you think about it, his whole strategy is indirection. And it's really interesting when you are like listening to this and reading it, because when you're reading it, you're like, this guy is thinking outside the box. It might not necessarily be for the right things, but he is thinking outside of the box. And that is something I do appreciate about Bernays, even though, even though I've heard his personal story, I don't think he was a great guy, but I think the way, the, the way he was doing things and the whole idea of indirection, making like the whole book publishing idea with going to the architects is a genius idea. I don't care what you think about Bernays or not. That was a genius idea. So this is a really interesting thing. So, uh, now we get to the United Fruit and Bernays' strategy for them. So the one thing with this is that he started to like plant stories. So they planted stories, they even made a movie on how Russia infiltrated Guatemala, and United Fruit sponsored this whole thing. There was articles, they flew journalists, and they were showing all the bad things about Guatemala and and all these journalists were like writing articles. And, um, ultimately United Fruit got back what it had lost. It ruined Arbenz's life. And I can't— I'm not in the authority to say whether it was right or wrong for Arbenz. I don't know what kind of a guy he was, but from what it said in the book, they ruined his life. Um, ult— like, was just despised in the whole world. Um, I think his daughter either committed suicide or something happened to her. Um, but it's just a really sad story on that part. He, the author, went into that whole thing. But anyways, going back to United Fruit and Sam, they got back what they had lost, overthrew the, the Guatemala government with the help of the CIA. And one of the rules that Sam really violated was do not draw unnecessary attention. And why, why do I say that and why do I point this out? Well, do not draw unnecessary attention. Well, you just overthrew the Guatemala government with the help of the US, and now people in the US are getting suspicious because you had lost a lot of land and now you're getting it all back. So then there was a question regarding, was this the CIA that used Zamuri in United Fruit, or was it the other way around? And this is where banana republic terms start to come in, where CIA was using other people Or, you know, was it Zamori? And that's really a question that you, you can decide the answer to once you read this book. I don't really know, but it is really interesting just to, to listen to all these stories of United Fruit or the companies trying to use certain matters and all this stuff. But anyways, the US government basically distanced itself from United Fruit. United Fruit ended up being broken as a monopoly and had to sell 33% of its land, which was a lot, to Standard Fruit. And Standard Fruit was then later purchased by Dole Plantations. Um, that's the whole pineapple— like, just, they do a lot and they're really good. Um, but they ended up getting bought. Um, and Bernays tried to stop United Fruit from being broken up, and it was already pretty much lost. Um, it— so this is where it ties into the quote: it had already lost its respect and nothing could be done. That it, it really did. And it is really sad, the downfall of United Fruit, um, and Sam's and Murray. But it, it shows you that, you know, life is short and that I appreciate what Sam's and Murray did for like the way he started out, but over his lifetime it just got really corrupt. And, you know, Bernays was trying to stop UF, uh, or United Fruit from being, uh, broken up. And so he was planting stories and all this stuff why they were actually the good guys, and no one bought it because of the lost respect. And I just want to read this quote because this is, um, this is the first couple paragraphs of chapter 20 of What Remains. And this is kind of the reason why, um, United Fruit fell apart and Sam's and Murray and all this. And this is, this is a reminder that life is short. While no one was looking, Samuel Murray had grown painfully, shockingly, bitterly old. It's like this: you leave the house in the morning and are young and fit and strong and you whistle as you walk down Magazine Street. Then you turn a corner and bang, run right into your own decrepit 78-year-old self going the other way. He had retired from the banana trade for the last time. He left Boston forever. He left New York forever. He left Honduras, Costa Rica, Guatemala, Cuba, Ecuador, in Colombia forever. He was like a man wandering through a mansion, closing doors. At a certain age, no matter which direction you walk, you were walking away. Hmm. It's a very— he just— beautiful writing and shows you like life is short. You walk around the corner, boom, there's your like 50 years in the future self. Like you're young, fit, strong, you're going. And the thing is, the, the interesting thing is like you gotta live your life to the fullest. You gotta make sure— Sam Zamuri did this well because he did, he, he did live his life to the fullest, not in the greatest way, but he did live his life to the fullest. And life is short. It's going to happen. You're going to get older. All this stuff is going to happen. Your old decrepit self will come around. You know, I would argue with Rich Cohen because life is a lot more beautiful than that. You go through a lot of seasons. And, you know, if you ever think about like time traveling or whatever, going into the future or the past, when you think about it, it's like You're not just going to run into your older self. But I think the picture of getting older and how short time is, is very accurate from what Rich Cohen is saying. And it is really interesting. And now we go on to this section of did Sam have regrets? And I highlighted this section because it is really interesting. So did Sam Zimmurray have regrets? He lived one of the greatest lives of his time. He devoured his years, consumed as much as he could reach, and that is the part of living fully. But anyways, he was not as famous as many, but I would put his story beside, beside the most heralded. He never recovered from the death of his son, but that was not a regret. It was a blow suffered in the service of his country in a war. Um, he goes on to say that if he did have a regret, it was probably not raising his children upright, which that's another thing that he neglected. Um, and when you, when you just look at it though, he devoured his years, he consumed as much as he could reach, he lived one of the greatest lives of his time. Like, that is what you want to be doing when you listen. Like, when you listen to this podcast, it's to grow and to learn and to devour your years, but devour them in like time compact and like just filled years. Like you are just going, going, going, going because it is so good. And you're, you're constantly improving, getting better. You're addicted to bettering yourself. You're living a great life, you know, at the end of your time. And this ties back into life is short. You, you walk into your decrepit self. When your decrepit self comes back and I don't like the word decrepit, but like when your older self comes back and asks you, was it worth it? Like the things that you did, are you going to look at him and say, I used all my time wisely. At the end of my life, I'm going to be great and I am great. And I consumed as much as I could. I tried to get in as much as possible. I went as hard as possible. It doesn't mean sacrifice family like he did, but it means doing hard things and doing things well. Um, to go on to the next point, Sam did have Parkinson's disease, and you kind of tell. Um, he didn't really touch on it much, but that's just something to keep in mind as he's getting into his older years. And I want to read this next part because this is what Sam's legacy means. And this just shows like you should really value what you have. And I want to read you this whole thing because this is what we've been talking about. Did Sam have regrets? Life is short. You run into your older self. To me, Sam Zimmurray's life is the true story of an American dream, not only of the success, but of the paid price for the ambition that led to that success. Or, uh, but of the price paid for the ambition that led to that success. By the people of the isthmus, by the men who battled him in the Banana War, by Zamuri himself. Did Sam really think he could get away without pain? He scaled the heights but lost so much in the process. First his son, then his family, which came apart a sheet at a time. As Arthur Miller wrote in The Price, if you don't understand the viewpoint, you don't understand the price. For Zamuri, that viewpoint to some degree would always remain the world as seen from the, the window of the farmhouse in Russia, where every Jew knew that without a family, without a legacy, without a son to say kaddash over you in the end, 'Even the greatest man was nothing.' This is a— it's a crazy time capsule of what he just like honed in on. Like, this is what his legacy means. He reached the top of the American dream and still he had nothing. Like, really value what you have— your time, your family. Do hard things because you're not just doing it for yourself but for others. Without a family, without a legacy, and without a son. He had a son. His son died. He had a family. He neglected his family. Without a legacy. Sam's fortune by the end of his life was $30 million. And this is in the '60s. So '61, 1961. This is really good because that's around $325 million for a net worth in today's money. And when you hear that, you think, wow, that's a lot, that's awesome. But when you look at his life, he, he was successful. But what is success? I mean, he, he neglected his family. He, he didn't leave a legacy. Even the people— he talks about this, Rich Cohen talks about this— even the people he was around didn't want to be associated with him because all the corruption with United Fruit. Even people nowadays are still slandering the name of Sam's Murray and all that. But the thing is, like, this isn't a tale of, like, look at this guy and emulate everything. It's really— this is a cautionary tale of do not— like, success, money, wealth, cars, houses, all that. That's not everything. You know, sometimes success is your family legacy, you know, all that. And it's just a really good reminder as you go into your day to day or whatever you are doing, that it's not just for one thing. It has to be for a greater reason for others and not just yourself. It's a good, good reminder for myself as well. Like, reading this, it's not just about the success. It's about doing it for others, doing it for the ones you love the most, and truly valuing them with your time and just what you love to do. That doesn't mean you can't be great. You can still be great. You can still have all that. But as long as it's put in its right place, then that's when you have true success. Sam's Murray had everything, but he didn't have the most important things in his life. And it is really interesting, and Sam died on November 30th, 1961. He, I assume, died from Parkinson's disease and It's very— it's a sad story. Um, see, like how I mentioned in the beginning, this is all culminating into something bigger. Um, before I read that, I, I've highlighted this area, and it's about what a corporation is. It's really interesting because what is a corporation? You know, like, it's a product And I'll just read this. A corporation is a product of a particular place in a particular time. U.S. Steel was Pennsylvania in the 1980s. Microsoft was Seattle in the 1980s. Sorry, U.S. Steel was Pennsylvania in the 1890s. Microsoft was Seattle in the 1980s. It's where and when their sense of the world was fixed. The company brain is hardwired. This is which is why a corporation though conceivably immortal, tends to have a lifespan, tends to age and die, age and die, unless remade by a new generation of pioneers. And this is like tying into legacy. You want those gen— those new generation, uh, new generations of pioneers. Unless remade by a new generation of pioneers, in which case it's a different company, most corporations do not outlive the era of their first success. When the ideas and assumptions prevalent at the time of their founding go out of fashion, the company fades. And this is what happened to Sam's and Murray's company. When Sam's and Murray died, passed away, um, the company was lost. And this is where it ties into what is United Fruit. What is United Fruit? What's United Fruit? Sam Zee. Sam the Banana Man. El Amigo. The Big Russian. The Gringo. He was not an easy person, nor is his biography without controversy. To some, it's the story of a great man, a pioneer in business, a hero. To others, it's the story of a pirate who took without asking. What does it say about America? It's a question I have asked myself repeatedly as I researched, interviewed, traveled, and wrote. In the end, I decided that his career is the history of the nation, the promise and the betrayal of that promise experienced in the span of a single life. It starts 100 years ago when America was a rising power and ends the day before yesterday with the confidence of the people sapped. It might look bad, but as Zamuri understood, as long as you're breathing, the end remains to be written. Sam's defining characteristic was his belief in his own agency, his refusal to despair. No story is without the possibility of redemption. With cleverness and hustle, the worst can be overcome. I can't help but feel, after all the talk of America's decline, that we would do well by emulating Sam's Amuri. Not the brutality or the conquest, but the righteous anger that sent the striver into the boardroom of laughing elites, waving his proxies, shouting, 'You gentlemen have been messing up this business long enough, and I'm going to straighten it out.' That— those are powerful lines right there. That, that's just a powerful last paragraph and last couple paragraphs. I mean, when you read this, I, I 100% agree with this. Yeah, you don't need to emulate the brutality or the conquest or all that, but the righteous anger, the like being, um, you know, having the anger for your company, like doing things well. Like, you should be upset at people that do bad work, at mediocre work. You should not allow that to happen. Elon Musk would fire that person immediately. And this isn't like a, oh yeah, like, sure, but it's more of like, no, this is something that everyone, every founder has, every person that is uncommon and excellent. And, you know, I love this. Sam's defining characteristic was his belief in his own agency, his refusal to despair. He's optimistic. He has belief in himself. The end remains to be written. You still have control over your life to where you can do good things, do great things. No story is without the possibility of redemption. You can have cleverness, so you need to be clever. Learn from history's greatest entrepreneurs, founders, thinkers, businesses, ideas, and hustle. You got to put in the consistency. And with that, the worst can be overcome. It's interesting because I wanted to tie this all into a theme, and I think the theme that really shows everything— and just, just as a last, like, as I said in the very beginning, remember this: it doesn't matter how much your business or how much business you do, when you lose your reputation, you lose everything. We can really see that in Sam's and Marie's company. And this isn't to put a down note on what we just read. I still think emulating him is great, but just remember that respect is everything and reputation. And when you lose that, you're losing most of your business. And I want to just conclude this episode with, you know, what he was saying, or what I've been saying throughout this like this episode. Life is short. You know, you're going to get older. It's going to happen. But how do you use those years? Do you consume everything in your path? Do you— are you learning? Are you getting better? Are you addicted to bettering yourself? Are you— do you value what you have, what you've been blessed with, what you've been given? Your family, your time, your legacy, the legacy that you still need to build. Value what you have. And the last thing is just do hard things. Do hard things that push you. Samson Murray was in the forest of these tropical jungles, like battling with his men through like, like cutting down, um, banana— like clumps of bananas, um, clusters as they call them, clusters of bananas. And there'd be scorpions and them. Like, he had to battle snakes. He had to be like— had to battle snakes and scorpions and all these different creatures, and he still lived out there. He did it. He wasn't stuck in an office doing that. Like, treat life as a battle. As I'm reading The War of Art, and I don't agree with everything, but Steven Pressfield is very good with saying like, you know, you got like— the war of art, art and being creative and all that, it's a battle. You're supposed to battle for that stuff. So go out with your people and battle. Do the hard thing. Go battle with him. So life is short. Value what you have. Do hard things. Go to battle for your creative instinct and whatever you're working on. And this is a really good book. I would pick it up if you haven't. You can use the link down below. The Fish That Ate the Whale: The Life and Times of America's Banana King, written by Rich Cohen. And one of— just a crazy book. Um, really, really good book. I recommend reading it and buying it if you haven't already. And thank you for listening to this podcast, and I'll talk to you guys again soon.