How to Keep Going When Life Changes Everything | Kenneth James Kunken | The IgnitedNeurons Podcast

October 31st, 1970. He ran down the field, made a tackle, and never moved his body again.

And when I hit him, I broke my neck and severely damaged my spinal cord.

20 years old. The same morning, he felt invincible, untouchable.

I thought I was invincible.

2 degrees from Cornell, a master's from Columbia, the very school he was playing the day he got injured. And then he mailed— not emailed, he physically mailed 200 applications for a job.

Everybody seemed to feel that I was just too disabled to work.

One person gave him a chance, and he spent 40 years with them as a prosecutor. And during that journey, he also became father of triplets. And he says the worst day of his life was not the day when he was injured, but it was—

And I don't think I ever felt worse than the day I thought I was taking help away from my grandmother.

And today in the conversation, his wife Anna joins us too. She flew from Poland to the US to learn English, answered one of his newspaper ads, and never, never went back home. I asked her, how do you build a marriage that holds so much weight? And her word, her single word answer was trust. By the end of our conversation today, you'll understand what is left when everything that you're chasing, everything that you're wanting gets taken away from you in a single moment. Let's dive in. As I was preparing for this, I was thinking of loss, Ken. And sometimes we think of loss as you lose a job, you lose a relationship, you lose your life even. But then I think what you lost almost at 20 years old— looking back at that stage, Ken, what was something that you were really afraid to lose that did not matter? Take me to that day when everything started.

Well, it was October 31st, 1970, and I was playing for Cornell University on their lightweight football team. And I was playing a football game, an American football game, in a game against Columbia University. And on a kickoff, I ran down the field, tackled the ball carrier, and when I hit him, I broke my neck and severely damaged my spinal cord. And as a result, I'm a quadriplegic. I'm almost totally paralyzed below the shoulders.

How do you recover from that, Ken?

It took a long, long time. I spent the next 9 months and 20 days in various hospitals and rehabilitation centers, one trying to recover at least some of my movement, although I didn't recover much. I have a Little bit of movement now in my left arm, but nothing in my fingers or wrist. And on the right side of my body, I could just shrug my shoulder a bit. I also lost almost all feeling in my body below my shoulders. So I have feeling maybe 2 inches below my shoulders and up. Below that, I have no feeling.

If on that morning, Ken, the Ken of that morning, just before the match, would come and meet you right now, what kind of a conversation will emerge between the two of you?

I could tell you, back then I thought I was invincible. I was 20 years old. I was in good shape. I didn't think anything could happen to me that would prevent me from remaining in good shape.

Wow. And And you said, and, and, and I love how specific you are. October 31st and the year you remember the years and the days that it took to rehabilitate. What's been the journey since then, Ken?

Well, since then I had a lot of help every step of the way, specifically from my family. And they kept encouraging me that while I did lose most of my physical movement, I still had my mind, I still had my intellectual ability, and they kept encouraging me to make the most of it and that they felt there was still a lot I could do with my life, not only to be more productive and lead a happy, successful life, but to be able to help others along the way as well.

And as you reflect back now, what does the definition of successful life look like?

Well, for me, It means one, having a wonderful family and group of friends that I not only love being with, but that I feel I can make a difference in their lives as well. And by working together with them, I believe we all can do more with our lives and help others even beyond our immediate group to lead a normal, healthy, and happy life.

Yeah, I love how you use— you started the answer by saying, for me, So what it tells me is that that definition of success is specific to Ken and how you think and feel about that. Having a family is absolutely— share a little bit more about who's family right now.

Well, I have a wonderful, wonderful wife named Anna who means everything to me. And through Anna's help, love, and encouragement, I was still able to father children. Utkarsh, I'm a very proud father of triplets. I have 3 wonderful sons. They're 21 years old now. They're attending 3 separate colleges in upstate New York, 3 different majors, and they are the absolute loves of my life and my pride and joy.

Wow. And for listeners who are with us right now, In a few minutes, we'll have Anna also on the podcast because she's very thoughtfully agreed to having this conversation with us. Can let's break this down because I think it needs a different kind of mindset to be able to achieve what you've achieved. I, in my previous life, used to be a physiotherapist, and I've spent time with patients who have, who've had paraplegia or quadriplegia and I remember like vividly there was a 40-year-old man who I used to work with very regularly, cervical spine, C3-C4, I think again quadriplegia. A kid who was 19, I think, or maybe 17 when we started working together, paraplegia, but he started to walk by the time, yeah, and then he recovered to have a full life. And then there's a very, very stark contrast. Between people who say, oh, I have to go back to my job on a Monday morning. Oh, I have the same wife for 20 years. Oh, I have children who I have to take care of. Like, how do these mindsets— like, what's the irony here? Like, can you dissect what is it that your mindset has that maybe is not in the other person yet?

Well, I was doing my best and striving to lead as normal a life as I could. And basically everybody was telling me that's not going to be possible anymore. There were so many naysayers that kept trying to tell me, you have a disability, you must accept it and accept that you now have all these limitations. And that's not something I ever wanted to do. I remember meeting a man when I was working as a rehab counselor who was from India, and he was desperate to get back in the workforce after he had an injury and a disability. And he kept telling people, I will even take a salary that pays less than the benefits I'm earning now to stay home because I think it's important to work. It's important for me. It's important for the culture I grew up in. And even though I will be losing money by going back to work, that's important to me. And that way I could make a difference in other people's lives.

Yeah. So beautiful. I think it's also, there's this factor, Ken, and correct me if I'm wrong, I think human beings are weird animals. They want some kind of a crisis Before they can really appreciate what they already have. What stops us from being able to do that?

Well, a lot of people, one, feel nothing can happen to them that'll make their life worse than it is now. And everybody's looking forward to a better life. So when everybody thinks about the future, they're only thinking about how things can get better for them. And many people don't look To the possibility that they may need to work extra hard just to achieve and lead a productive, successful life and to be able to help others and to realize and recognize that the best part of at least my life I know is when I still have the opportunity to help others. I found that so important and made a huge difference in my life after my injury. Because I had been receiving so much help and assistance for so many people, I was feeling guilty about that. And the fact that at one point I was finally able to give back to others and help others made a huge difference in how I felt about myself.

Yeah, there's so many thoughts that I'm picking there. One is that, yeah, we all look for like a brighter future, better things, things are gonna be improving. And I think it's a very interesting paradox that's emerging in my head right now. And I'll kind of speak to you about it. It's like we don't like change, but we want change to be always on the positive side. But no one can really predict if change is going to be upwards, right? It can absolutely be downwards where you've got to be working even harder to sustain the life that you have. And through that, you also spoke about asking for help, which I think is such a difficult thing to do, right? Because what you said, you used the word being guilty during those times. Where was this guilt coming from, Ken? Like what, as you now reflect back, what was the guilt about?

Well, I was always taught and brought up to do things for yourself and along the way, try and help others. But now to be the recipient of so much help made me feel guilty because I was taking away the time and the energy from other people that I thought perhaps that would be better spent helping others who needed it.

Yeah.

And I know when I had relatives who had any type of injury or health issues or problems they faced, I wanted them to get as much help as they could. And fortunately or unfortunately, my family always put me first and gave me that extra help. And there were times when I felt that maybe taking away help for others.

Fascinating. There must be, after the injury, Ken, there must have been a phase where you felt like the earth's been removed under your feet. It's all shattering. It's all that. The will does not come back to survive and thrive immediately, right? How was that phase where you thought like, this is not worth it?

That phase took years and years to get over. I was depressed for a very long time, but I tried to do my best not to let that depression stop me from still doing things. I felt that while I couldn't always control what happened to me, I could still control how I reacted to it. And I thought that was important with whatever physical abilities I had. I wanted to make the most of that so that would allow me to make the most of my mental abilities. And by doing that, I felt I could still make a difference, not only in my life, but in the lives of others.

What was one mental model? What was, what was that anchor, the clinging factor that allowed you to move through that phase and yeah, come back out of it?

Well, okay, maybe I ought to go back to the beginning of my life. What I don't believe you know is at the, when we first spoke, you used the word loss. Well, I lost my mother when I was less than 1 month old. It was in 1950 and she died during the polio epidemic. But I was never at a loss or a lack for love in my life. My extended family, my grandparents, aunts, uncles, cousins, all banded together to help me and my family still strive to do everything we wanted to do in life. And that was engraved in me that that was very important to help others. And I felt in the end that I would actually be disappointing them if I didn't do everything I could do to not only help others, but to make a success out of my life. So I worked extra hard to make sure that happened.

Yeah. So I'm hearing this, these pillars of support, love, help, and care that's helped you kind of keep moving forward. What was that like? Is there a, is there a story that comes to mind where one of those darkest, lower days where you felt like it's not worth it? Anything that, that comes to mind anecdotally?

Well, there were many of them, but it's basically just to remember, Utkarsh, I cannot dress myself or roll over in bed or wipe my nose or scratch an itch or even feed myself most of the time. So I know there was a time where I was staying with one of my aunts and my grandmother unfortunately fell and broke her hip, and she was alone at the time and she needed my aunt's help. And my aunt was hesitant and reluctant to leave me because she knew I needed help despite the fact that her mother was really ailing. And I felt as bad as I think I ever felt in my life that I was taking help and support away from my grandmother. And I had to convince my aunt that I will be okay if she leaves me alone for her to go help her mother. And I don't think I ever felt worse than the day I thought I was taking help away from my grandmother. Hmm.

Hmm.

You know, there's the— I'm reading a book right now, so my, a lot of my thoughts are getting influenced from that. And I've read this book a few times, Man's Search for Meaning by Viktor Frankl. And there he speaks about a lot of suffering. He was in one of those Nazis camps during the Second World War. How does one find meaning in suffering, Ken?

Well, the way I found it is the fact that there was still a lot I can do, not only with my life to make a success out of it, but that I was still in a position where I could help others. And eventually, after many years, I was able to get a job as a vocational rehabilitation counselor, and I was finally, after years of being injured and receiving so much help, to be able to give some of it back to other individuals who were working very hard to deal with their own disability. And that made a huge difference.

Mm-hmm.

It helped improve my self-confidence, my self-esteem, my feelings of self-worth. And when I saw that I could make a difference in their lives and to encourage them to go on and work hard and deal with their adversity and rise above it, that made me feel so much better about myself and the situation I was in.

That's fascinating. And I feel like, Ken, that when someone goes through a lot of hardships, And things that are out of their control, like that date of October 31st, you could not control the outcome on that day, right? I think there are people who become really bitter after such an experience, or there are people who become really grateful. I'm seeing you as someone who's appreciating what you have, being grateful, full of love. Is there something that's different about the way you were raised? Is there something different about your DNA? What's, what's that secret ingredient that allowed you to be grateful rather than bitter?

My family and friends. That's it in a nutshell. I couldn't have done anything without their help and support, including just getting up and outta bed in the morning. They made all the difference, their encouragement, They're willing to help me to show that there was still a lot I can do to help others. And that made all the difference. Utkarsh, I think it surprises a lot of people when they hear I'm leading a very happy life despite the fact that I have a lot of physical limitations. I'm leading a very happy life, and I think everybody can do that when they have the proper support and encouragement and that they continue to strive to be the best they can be.

That's so beautiful. Give us a sense of your achievements, Ken, because you've achieved so much as I was researching you and looked at your profile. Give us a sense of your journey. So vocational rehabilitation counselor, and then where did that journey take you to where you are right now?

Well, let me start before that. I was injured at the beginning of my junior year in college. 11 days after I was finally discharged from the hospital, I returned to Cornell University where I completed the next 2 years of my undergraduate degree during those 2 years, and I became the first quadriplegic to ever graduate from Cornell. Now, at the time I was studying industrial engineering, but while I graduated with that degree, I realized that that was really not the right field for me. I mean, keep in mind, this was well before they had laptop computers. And it was very difficult for me to work in that field, but I received the encouragement and support of a psychology professor, which I had taken an elective in, and he encouraged me that there was a lot I could do in helping others by going into the field of counseling. So I returned to Cornell and earned a Master of Arts degree where I majored in counseling and student personnel administration, and I became the first quadriplegic to ever earn a graduate degree from Cornell. And then to increase my counseling credentials, I went to Columbia University. Coincidentally, that's the school I got hurt playing football against, and I earned my second master's degree. This one, a master's in psychological counseling and rehabilitation. And I decided to look for a job in the rehabilitation counseling field. Now, I want you to think about this, Utkarsh. This was in the mid-1970s. I now had 2 degrees from Cornell, one from Columbia. In America, they're very prestigious Ivy League schools.

Interesting.

I had 2 master's degrees and no one would hire me. I was looking for a job for a year. I mailed out, mailed out, not emailed, more than 200 resumes and looked for a job for a year. Everybody seemed to feel that I was just too disabled to work. Even my advisor for my second master's degree told me on the first day, despite what they were teaching, even people in the field would be hesitant to hire somebody with my disability. That's what I was facing back then. But finally, I was given one opportunity to show what I could do, and that was at the Viscardi Center on Long Island, named after its founder, Dr. Henry Viscardi Jr. And he hired me to work as vocational rehabilitation counselor, and that changed my life.

Hmm.

That gave me so much more meaning in my life. It showed me I could still make a difference in other people's lives, and it showed me that I still had a lot to offer, uh, despite my limitations. And I was dealing with other individuals who were facing adversity and had their own types of disabilities to work. To overcome. And it really showed me a lot about the human spirit and how hard everybody was trying to make a difference in people's lives. And that changed my life.

Wow.

Getting one degree from an Ivy League is a sense of achievement and like you've done it, right? Then getting a second one from Columbia and then going through that journey, 200 applications mailed out, like physical mails, not typing it out and sending it, not using Claude and AI to send out those 200.

This was before they had the email.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I'm seeing you here and I'm seeing a lot of joy and contentment, and I'm seeing things that I sometimes don't see in in my coaching clients who, who according to me in this moment have like everything figured out. What is it that ambitious people— what I'm, I'm like, I'm getting a little bit lost for words. What is it, Ken, that ambitious people are not understanding about life and success?

That there's a lot we all can do. One, if we're given the opportunity, but two, if we keep that faith in ourselves. That we believe there's a lot we can do. Not to listen to the naysayers, not to listen to the people who are telling you something is just too difficult or that you won't be able to do it. What's important is that you believe in yourself, that you believe you can accomplish whatever you set your mind to. And while everybody deals with frustrations and difficulties in their lives, you need to overcome it. You need to learn from your mistakes. Deal with those frustrations and believe in yourself and never give up. Never give up. And let me just say that again, never give up.

Yeah, I think everyone needs to hear that. Never give up. Um, what has becoming a, becoming a husband and father taught you about life, Ken, that nothing else could ever?

Everything. That is the best thing that ever happened to me. After my injury, I went back to school. I got a number of degrees. I worked first as a rehab counselor. Later, I left my job, went to law school, worked as a lawyer for many years. But what I really am most proud of, Utkarsh, is my family life. That is what I'm most proud of. The degrees are nice.

Mm-hmm.

My work experience is nice. My family life is incredible. I have the most wonderful wife in the world, and I'm the father of triplet sons that bring me so much joy and so much pride and make it worth getting up every day in the morning and feeling happy and good about the day that's about to come.

And it's a beautiful moment for us to introduce Anna to the conversation. So for those who are watching this on YouTube, You're going to now see the video shift. The laptop's going to move slightly to the left, and Anna's going to take the laptop towards herself. I really appreciate it. Anna, when did you meet Ken the first time? What was that experience like?

1999. Okay. In the spring. I came to this country to improve my English. I was pretty successful in business in Poland, but the one thing that was lacking was English skills. So I came here, I left my job. I, I thought myself 6 months on the streets of New York talking to people would be enough to improve my English. Well, before 9/11, nobody was talking to you. On the streets of New York. Everybody selfishly enough just looking on their legs and just charge through. So there was nobody really to talk to. Of course, I went to school, English school, but when you think about it, there is lots of people like me with bad language and just one teacher, not much opportunity to actually improve your language skills. So I needed to find somebody to talk to and maybe hopefully somebody would actually correct me when I speak English. So I found Ken. He left an ad in a Polish newspaper, which is published here in the United States, about he was looking for somebody to stay with him over the weekend and help him with all his needs. And I was thinking, great, he's not going to just leave me or do something else. We are just going to be 24 hours, 7 for 2 days over the weekend together. So I can improve my English, hopefully, right? If we talk. Problem is, once we start talking, we could not stop. And I don't know, the rest is history, I guess. Wow.

So 27 years ago you came and Like, it's really, it's a leap, right? To leave one country and get to the other one just to be on the streets, talk to people, learn English. Where did that courage come from, Anna?

I was desperate. I was just desperate. I tried school in Poland, of course. I tried different things, but I just could not get that language. set. So my desperation took me to, you know, New Jersey, New York, when I lived with my family here. And then, of course, you know, we've gone on the weekends and then to school here. It was to immerse myself. It's so much better and more effective to learn English, especially for somebody who has problems with foreign language, which is my case. So this is the one thing that I can, you know, promise everybody to actually, you know, that works. Of course, if you change all the settings in your phone to English or to whatever the language you would like to learn, you never want to talk to anybody, let's say in your native language, just English. You just have to shift completely. So that's guaranteed that sooner or later, probably sooner you will start dreaming in that English, for example, if you would like to learn that. So that's the only one way to do it.

Yeah, I think for everyone, what you said, I think I really love that, Anna. So courage comes from desperation in your case, for example. I think we're all going through our own version of that desperation. And we, for example, moved from India to Australia only 4 years ago, Anna. And our desperation was that my wife back home was— there were a lot of struggles for her in her health, which were making me selfishly fear that something's going to happen to her. And she was also clear of that realization. So if we did not move countries, yeah, it would've been a— I don't know where that road would've taken us. So I think there was this desperation that we need to change our environment. to build a better life. And that gave us the courage to use the fear as fuel and then to be here. So, fascinating.

Yeah, I mean, you know, as I said, when you have means, okay, you can just kind of like do that somehow in your country, whatever you need, right? But now sometimes it's just not, it's not the case. So as I said, my life and whatever I did is nothing Nothing compared to many, many people who, let's say, came to United States recently. And unfortunately, right now, they are pretty much deported. They have to leave.

It's a tough world.

Come back to square one, right?

Yeah.

Even though that most of the people who are actually trying desperately to remove them from this country came pretty much from the same place, They're not really looking very Native American to me.

Yeah.

Okay. So everybody has some kind of roots in, you know, outside of here.

Yeah.

But, you know, this is just very similar. You know, I can see lots of people who came here, let's say 30 years ago. Okay. They are established right now.

Yeah.

They seem to like to close that door behind them. They don't want anybody else. To go through those, the same doors they went through.

Yeah.

It's, I don't know why. I don't know.

Just, I think they forget the scars. They forget the scars, Anna. They forget the struggles and they don't think the way Ken and you are thinking. They don't speak about helping others, of love, of care, of support, of all these human conditions. They start to think of power. They start to think of material gain. They start to think of money. And that's just my hypothesis. Who am I to say? one's right and one's wrong. But I'm going to come back to you and Ken because I'm intrigued. So from that moment of wanting to learn English to then now being married and having kids, and what's been the journey like from your vantage point and your lens?

Well, I kind of didn't plan it or anything like that. I never planned to stay here. It just happens. You know, sometimes you look on somebody and just kind of like, uh, gave up your plans and goals and you start changing things. And then, you know, if you're starting to plan, uh, your life around some other person, you know that you pretty much, uh, give up being you. Now you're thinking about couple, right?

Yeah.

Or something like that. Usually that changes very kind of like slowly. Sometimes rapidly depends. For us, I think it was some kind of natural way to do it. I mean, I don't know. We just really don't know. It's kind of hard to explain.

Yeah.

But I remember I went to school, to community college for graphic design. That was kind of Ken's idea. Just to kind of like to keep me longer, I would say, in this country. But then 9/11 happened. Okay. So in United States, especially when you're here in the tri-state area, the 9/11 was a really traumatic event.

Yeah.

One of those that kind of shook you into the core and you're starting to revisit everything what you go through. in your life. I mean, it changed a lot of lives. I remember, you know, I'm going to school, sure, I have visa, you know, like student visa, you know, I'm with Ken, fine, but you know, that's going to happen, something happened that I'm just going to leave him, right?

Hmm.

Because, you know, the student visa is not forever. I'm going to finish my program and that's it. But then after 9/11, I was just thinking, for God's sakes, what I'm doing? Am I going to meet anybody like that ever again? No, not in my country, never anywhere else. This is it. This is, you know, you just have to kind of catch whatever the opportunity you have and go with it.

Yeah.

So that's why I decided to stay here, propose to Ken, You're welcome.

Remember it, can you?

I mean, I know that I talked to my parents and things like that. They were not very happy that I decided to stay, but for a very special reason, actually. When I told them that I'm going to be here so many hours by flight and so many So many, you know, miles away from home. And they told me they were afraid that since I'm here so away from them, they will not be able to help me if I need their help. Hmm. Wow. That was their take. It's not like they were just afraid or kind of like, you know, that I do stupid things or things like that. No, they were just worried that we will not be able to help me. So, you know, I came from that kind of background outside. Okay, that's all what I can say.

Yeah, yeah. What's— if someone's listening to this and they are starting to build a relationship, what would be your one piece of advice in a nutshell on how to build a successful relationship?

Trust. You build everything on trust. Okay. If you cannot trust that person and that person cannot trust you, forget about it. It's not worth it.

Hmm.

That's what it is. Trust. Love is one thing. Love, it's not always there, but trust, it should be there for the successful relationship in anything. Talk about the marriage, friendship, or Even in the workplace, trust, that's the building, you know, the most important part of it.

Yeah. And how does one build trust in a relationship, Anna?

If you just, that's it, you know, I trust Ken, Ken trusts me. We know where we're standing. We know what other person is thinking after so many years. That's, you know, marriage.

Yeah.

Yeah. Sometimes kind of strange because, uh, you know, uh, you know, if somebody, um, calling and say, okay, we would like to do this and that, you know, how about if you ask Anna or, you know, they ask me to ask Ken for his opinion. We kind of know what to say. We know what the other person is going to say.

So that's just.

You don't even have to ask, to be honest, but that's the trust. That's a longtime relationship, right? You have to build that. You have to earn that trust. And the same actually coming when you think about children. When you have children, you really have to put that trust in the center of it. They have to trust you as a parent. If they don't trust you, they will do strange, stupid things sometimes. But when they trust you, okay, they will listen to you and they actually learn from your experience and whatever you say, they will treat you as a source of lesson, right? Not something to rebel against. Okay.

Beautiful.

They have to trust and it's a very, very, very hard work to make sure that you will never lose that trust because they will have that trust from the beginning. We just have to not lose it. That's the thing, especially when they get older and they see everything.

Yeah, that's so powerful. Trust. Love it. Thank you for that golden nugget, Anna. We can now move it back to Ken because I have one final question of Ken today. Thank you for being here, Anna. Really appreciate it. Trust. Thank you. I'm still thinking about that phrase. A couple of final thoughts. Again, if someone who's listening to us right now and they lose everything tomorrow, what do you think will still matter?

Well, the love they have of family, friends, anybody around them that can help them overcome adversity and that they feel confident in. That they're ready to spend a significant amount of time with to share what they're going through, but also to see if it could be a two-way street and that you could help each other. And we all face challenges in our life. We all face times of adversity. It's important to try and maintain a positive approach to things. I believe that always helps. Not to listen to the naysayers, to believe in yourself, to never give up.

Yeah.

And strive to make a difference not only in your life, but in other people's lives.

Beautiful. Thank you, Ken. That was such a thoughtful conversation. To everyone who's still listening to us at about 40-plus minutes into the conversation, remember that love will always stay on. So, so choose love. Anna told us that trust is the currency that helps you build a successful relationship, and you got to earn that trust. Ken said it 7 times in this conversation, so I hope you're listening and remembering, never give up. And all that matters for you right now, even when you lose everything, is the support, the care, the love, the help that you have. around you. If you're going through a phase where it feels like, what the hell is just going on in my life? Call that friend, ask that partner, talk to your children, talk to your parents, talk to your friends, a counselor, a therapist, a coach, whoever you can find solace in. And for everyone who's listening, we all at some point in the day feel that we are invincible. No one can touch us. But that's not the truth because you never know what the future has, um, packed for us. And you might have to strive even harder in the future. And so find joy in whatever's happening right now for you. Ken, Anna, this was such a beautiful conversation. Any final words before we wrap up?

Thank you, Utkarsh. Bye.

Thank you.

Thank you. This is Utkarsh, Anna, and Ken signing off.