Utkarsh Amitabh: From building my startup along with my job at Microsoft to Literature & Philosophy!

Once again, ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the AK Pallav Show. The show by immigrants, expats and for immigrants all over the world. Starting with season one with the Indian community, we have literally an all round personality who goes by the name of Utkarsh Amitabh, lives currently in London, founder of Network Capital, which is India as one of India's largest mentorship platform. Along with that, he's a writer for Harvard Business Review, is a World Economics Shaper, and also at the same time has been an INSEAD MBA and a shavening fellow at Oxford. If I said that name correct, Utkarsh, really, really happy to have you here today. What I would like to almost start off with, if you can give our audience a quick summary of how you moved across these different experiences and how particularly I was very interested because they are not necessarily all in the same direction. Like you also had a stint at Microsoft. How did your motivation, how did your why shift over these years and what is, let's say the key driving force behind everything that you do today?

Thank you very much. I'm very interested in understanding how social networks can be used to advance social good. And that has been the connecting thread in all of my experiences. So after Insead, I joined Microsoft and I was there for close to six and a half years. And in that time I got a chance to help build India's first smart village, support Microsoft CEO on a few projects, take up the World Economic Forum engagements in Davos and really understand how technology is creating a tectonic shift in different industries from education to agriculture. And I thought it was an ideal job for me after business school. And I'm really grateful because also at Microsoft I started a side hustle which was Network Capital to use social networks to democratize mentorship. I'd spend time on nights and weekends doing that. But in 2020, in the middle of the pandemic, I decided to leave Microsoft and do network capital full time with the thesis that as a side hustle, if the movement has come along this much, perhaps if I do this full time I can scale it to the next steps. And Pallavarakshaya, we raised funding from Facebook, as you may know, and then one year after that an Internet infrastructure unicorn acquired stake in the company, which is where I serve as a CMO in addition to my role as CEO even for my PhD which is also at Oxford, from the Sheepening Fellowship, my master's in Moral philosophy, all of them have been focused on fairness and expansion of social networks. So that's the connecting thread in all of my endeavors. And yes, it manifests in different forms in writing, academia, business, investing and so forth. But if one has to figure out a thread, that would be it.

How early on did you know about that thread and how did you come to know about like this is what you feel like is a cause worth fighting for?

I started having this realization fairly early on, but I didn't know how to act on it. So pre mba, I worked in nonprofit teach for India and before that in consulting, but I did a year long fellowship at Ashoka University called the Young India Fellowship where we studied liberal arts. So that was a really great postgraduate degree before an MBA because it exposed me to the magic that happens when you're studying or connecting with people from different domains, from anthropologists to philosophers to people interested in tech and strategy. And then at INSEAD, we had classmates from over 100 countries, often coming from different political, social and cultural backgrounds, but united in trying to create a meaningful career. And in Microsoft also, which looks like a micro United nations in a way, given the sheer diversity of immigrants and people from all cultures working towards a common goal. I said that there should also be a social network, something which is an amalgamation of my various experiences that helps people connect with each other, help them advance their careers, and essentially make the tricky process of figuring out meaning and utility in the age of AI with a sense of adventure and possibility. But I didn't necessarily know what kind of product, what kind of business model would it take? Would it even be a business or would it be a side hustle forever? So. So these questions were something that I tinkered along from 2016 to 2020, and as I write in one of my Harvard Business Review essays on career transition, that I'm a strong believer in taking very measured risks when we should take risks. But I do not come from the school of thought that the day you have an idea, the next morning you should jump up and actually do it. It may be right for some people, but I advocate for a. For a scientific approach which is test it out, measure data, see if it's the business, find thousand true fans. And if you do, if you're able to retain your motivation through the process, then by all means go all in. I love my job at Microsoft and I did really well. I connected with some of the most interesting leaders, including but not limited to the CEO who's exceptional. But I didn't do a startup because I didn't like my job. I learned quite a lot there and then did the startup, and I was quite happy with Myself, I was also going through some very interesting and wonderful personal changes, and that contributed to that decision as well. So I've always advocated for taking a very holistic approach towards life and careers because there's no work life, there's no career life. They're all one. And I'm very happy with the fact that the day that I spend today is on my terms and it's at a pretty healthy mix between doing stuff that matters to me, doing stuff that advances my career, and that of others. And that's what energizes me.

I have a question about your stint in Microsoft, and you also rightly pointed out that you belong to a school of thought which is, let's say, different from what we hear usually what's popular in the media. How would you describe the process of figuring out the side hustle yet maintaining it sustainably while doing good at Microsoft, which is, I'm sure would had its own challenges and demands at that time.

Yeah, how did you.

What was the process like? And probably that answer to that is may resonate with many of our viewers as well, who might be in a similar spot.

So, Pala, one advice that Satya Nadella once gave me when I reached out to him in one of our meetings in Davos was that, hey, this is what I'm thinking. This is my side hustle. It's going really well. I am passionate about this idea. Should I build it within Microsoft? Should I take it outside? Should I do this at all? Just like it was general career advice. It's not that he sat with me and gave me two hours like he had five minutes, and we chatted about it. And he said that for the entirety of my career, I have taken every job that I've ever had and meant it to be the most important job. So that was a very foundational learning experience. They're really doing side hustle. You should not be cutting corners with your main job. So I gave everything I had to Microsoft and I went over and above that so that the time that I was spent doing corporate development, corporate strategy, etcetera, Was a plus. Because you can actually just slack at your job if you, you know, if you're reasonable enough, you'll probably, nobody will say anything. You'll probably still do okay. But I tried to give it my all. I went above and beyond and that energized me and opened up my weekends, whenever feasible, to build out this side hustle. And I'd like to belabor the point which I made, that not jumping into your idea straight up. It's because my parents are academics. Like my father's a doctor, my mom's an academic. We grew up in a academic middle class household in India. Then insead the MBA I take in a loan. So there are financial responsibilities as well. And Microsoft pays well. But you're not exactly in a position where instantly after graduation, a couple of years, you're financially free. You have to work your way through it. I wanted to be financially responsible. I wanted to do justice to my idea and I wanted to give everything to Microsoft. And it took me four years of testing and tinkering from 2016 to 2020, and it was actually the right thing to do for me. So everyone should sort of figure out their the time that it takes. For some people, that conviction could take a day, a week, a month or years. And this is something that they must figure out themselves. So for me, I've realized that building the thousand true fans who I knew would be able to champion network capital wherever they went, gave me a lot of confidence that even if I don't get a thousand in first person to become a paying subscriber of network capital, that income would be able to be enough for me to be able to do what I want and it would make the company be in a in the right direction. But the beauty of having thousand true fans is that they tell their friends and their friends tell their friends, and slowly the movement grows. So with financial discipline and discipline with trying and testing out and being ready for surprises and sometimes shocks which are inevitable in any startup journey, I think I reached a good enough point. And you never really arrive in life like, you know, it's. You just go from point to point. But you must do so, or at least try to do so with a sense of energy. Because I once read somewhere that companies don't fail when, you know, the strategy goes wrong. The companies fail when the entrepreneur runs out of energy. So I've tried to just wake up a bit more energetic than I did the previous day.

And just for our viewers and also for us, could you explain briefly what is network capital and what's the model?

Who are the target audience?

What are you trying to accomplish as a mission?

So theory is very simple. Most people are confused about their careers most of the time. And even people who are in jobs that they like, they're typically looking for the next jobs. So career transition is an omnipotent, omnipresent phenomena. But there isn't exactly an organization who provides structured mentorship and career coaching, at least not the ones that are affordable to people. So Network Capital's core infrastructure is network. We have one of the world's largest social networks of verified millennials and Gen Zs. And these are ambitious people who want to do really well. People like maybe like you and Akshay, a good example of the kind of members that we have. And these members are useful because they provide mentorship to people who can learn from them. But even people who are reasonably successful need mentorship from, say, senior executives, and senior executive need mentorship sometimes from younger people. So this sort of circle of mentorship needs to be there. So we said, okay, let's build a social network. Let's add products on top of it, which would be cohort based courses, podcasts, newsletters, you know, an entire tribe of mentors that people can book time with. Essentially, people pay for outcomes, and the outcomes that we provide is career transition, career upskilling, career coaching, and so forth. But this is done with a lot of fun because there's a social network where people engage, get to know each other online and in person. And the business model is very simple. It's a subscription based company, so people pay a monthly fee to be a part of network capital. And as part of that, they get newsletters, podcasts, access to our network. And then companies pay for network capital as well because they want their employees to get structured mentorship and career coaching to be able to do their job well. And B2B is like a strong contributor to the revenue. And B2C is what makes network capital really interesting because people tell stories to other people. We also have a tiered business model. So this is a straight subscription for companies and for individuals. For companies, it's on the higher side. For individuals, it's more affordable. 250 a year. $250 a year. And then people occasionally pay for outcomes as well. So if somebody is going through a really important interview or wants to make shifts from, say, sector A to sector B in six months, or wants to get to a particular school, then they then they are matched with mentors who spend 50 hours with them. And the ticket rate of that is $5,000 plus. Because the upside of that career decision going around is I think 100, 200,000, maybe even more. So we've just made it possible this way. Network capital also serves as a partner to Niti Aayog, running the world's largest mentorship program for kids. And we've recently joined hands with the World bank as well.

Great.

Yeah, yeah, thanks for explaining that.

And in terms of. Because right now you're. You're doing a mix of things between what you're doing at Oxford, between what you're doing with Network Capital. How. How is your current portfolio structured? Like, where. Where is your time going and how do you kind of prioritize and pick and choose between them? Because it seems like, of course, there was Microsoft and Network Capital first and now there's Network Capital and a few other things. How. How has that.

A whole range of stuff. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

How do you. How do you.

How do you put all of.

How do you see them together?

How do I structure my time? Yeah. So Network Capital and the CEO and the company that acquired a stake in Network Capital and their Chief Marketing Officer, which is, again, understanding intimately how social networks can be used to scale the infrastructure that Fire has built. So that's employment, CEO and CMO of these two companies. But I've always been super interested in academia. So my master's in Oxford is in moral philosophy. My PhD is understanding social networks for change maker movements. So what I do, I typically try and add an academic dimension to it. So I've always studied, like pre mba, I was at Ashoka, then for my mba, I was at Insead, then the she evening Fellowship at Oxford, primarily because I was interested in the work on social networks and to figure out whether I really wanted to do a PhD or not. And then the master's in modern philosophy was purely out of interest. I think philosophy, everyone should study Oxford is a nice place to live and breathe. So I decided to go for IT and PhD also. It was something that advancing academic theory on social networks matters to me. And in terms of structuring time, I think discipline is key, but also realizing how different aspects of your life connect. So a big part of my role as a CEO and CMO is to write about things that I'm interested in, write about things that I'm researching. And where do I get my ideas? I get my ideas from speaking to people, interacting with customers, but also from reading academic texts and using some of these theories to make them available for the business reader, the ambitious millennial Gen Z, or the CEO sitting, say, somewhere in New Delhi or New York or any place of that sort. And that's the power of writing. Of course, Harvard Business Review is a. Is a great journal, and I'm very glad that I get to write for it. But even if you write on, say, a social media platform, the act of writing is a great provider of clarity. So it doesn't matter where you get published. It's the craft that matters. And eventually, if you keep trying, getting published is the easy part. But having the discipline to look at the different areas of your life, I think that's, that's where a lot of people find it challenging. How did the.

By the way. And again, some, some of these activities that you do, they just sound like super cool. And also, really, you've got, you've gotten definitely a really good list of brands who are well reputed in their field for what they do. How well, how did some of these opportunities actually materialize? Like maybe you can take one or two examples of one which perhaps had some interesting story behind it, and if someone wants to do the same, how would they actually find their way into contributing to Harvard Business Review or, or finding the fellowship that, that you're doing? How would someone find their way into it?

So for, for academia, right, Like, I think both Pallav and you have MBAs, as do I. And the ROI on something like an MBA is very clear. But say an ROI on something like a degree in moral philosophy is less clear. And similarly, like, you know, if you have quite a few degrees, you don't necessarily need another fellowship, but you have to just realize what's important for you. And I think that's the guiding question for me. I worry quite little about what others are doing. I mean, if something really matters to me, I go for it. And that's essentially been the process. So for the fellowship at Oxford, there is a very standard application form and they select 12 people from India to India and Sri Lanka, I believe, South Asians to, to get this fully funded opportunity. And they typically take people at the intersection of research, tech and science because that's the focus of the fellowship. So I thought that I had a really interesting point of view to add there and apply it. I got, once I got there, I realized that some of the things that I was naturally interested in, like what say, Aristotle has to say about happiness, or what John Rawls tells us about fairness, the veil of ignorance and so forth, or how mimetic theory can be used to understand startup culture would be fascinating to study. So then you apply as a regular student and you, you, you present your facts and it's up to them to take it. And the PhD application tends to be a lot more competitive because, you know, it's also fully funded and quite a few people apply. But it was important to me. So I like went about the writing example is there, there is no playbook per se, so you can write to become popular. You can write to express a point of view, but I wanted to write for the intrinsic value of writing and I did want to get published a bit. My mom is a pretty well known poet, so I had some training in writing early on, but she, she, she writes about literature and I write about business now doing a little bit of philosophy literature. But I had to go through the regular process like everybody else, like pitching to various publications. And I started by getting just writing for blogs that might publish me. And I pitched to the World Economic Forum a couple of ideas that I had in mind. A few of them got picked and the one on finding a meaningful career got, became really popular. And then somebody on Network Capital only recommended me to an editor at Hindustan Times Mint, it's a business journal in India. And the editor met me and she conceptualized a series with me that hey, do you want to write about how millennials and Gen Zs think about careers? I said I'd love to. Initially the contract was for three or four articles, but I think that column became really popular so it became like a weekly thing. So every week I would churn out a well researched article on careers and work and meaning. And one of those articles on becoming a deep generalist became very popular. Then somebody from Sage Books, the publishing company in the us, they approached me for translating this into a book, which I did, and for my next book also. The process was very iterative. You go from writing a blog to writing for a journal, to writing for a newspaper and then getting a book contract. But you just have to keep at it. The HBR one was also like, you know, it's, it's a process of compounding. You do one, start small and then keep going. This podcast, maybe you both are doing it as a, as a passion project right now, but if it really blows up, who knows, you may start a media company, you might build a community around it. So it's all the wonders of compounding, I'd say.

Yeah.

So you already mentioned a couple of times about your parents and about your background, so maybe would like to change gears a little bit and why don't you share a bit about your background, where you grew up?

Yeah.

Kind of family situation you grew up and how did you figured out your career path, so to say. Yeah, going for bachelor's and then masters abroad. So just maybe throw some light on like how was your childhood like growing up?

Yeah. So as I mentioned, my mom is an academic and a poet. She's the winner of the Science Academy Award in 2020, the first woman poet to win. So. And my father is a Doctor at, at a government hospital called Saptajang Hospital in New Delhi, which is I believe the largest hospital that does public service. And he retired few years back and now he, he teaches in university and does private practice. My brother is a trader at BlackRock and he's now doing his MBA at Chicago Booth. My, my wife Kita, she is a quantitative engineer and she used to work at Facebook and now she works at a pre IPO company called Sector Alarm, which is a Norwegian home IoT company. Just growing up, both my brother and I, we played a lot, we read a lot, but we, we enjoyed this unconditional love from our parents. And that was really, that really helps you to develop deep confidence in yourself as a person. But you know, if you live in a normal but academically inclined middle class household, then you want to do well, or at least the expectation is that you want to do well at the traditional metrics of success, which are academia, jobs, this and that. So I wouldn't say there was a lot of pressure from my parents, but I think there are certain societal expectations that all of us need to fulfill. And that may not be unique to India, but it's definitely pronounced in, you know, in South Asia, I would say. So just navigating that and then trying to really build my category of one. Doing what I do today has been again, a very iterative process. I didn't wake up from my engineering, which was a Delhi college of engineering, and say that, hey, I'm going to quit engineering and moving to acting, which was something that I did quite a lot and still do. But I started doing theater on the sides, became part of dramatic societies performed in India Habitat Center, Kamani Auditorium, these are places in Delhi, and eventually ended up doing a short movie. So most things in my life have been gradual but, but intentional. So I wanted to really do something in acting, which my father was quite nervous about, that he thought maybe I'll leave engineering and become an actor or something. But I didn't do that. I, but I kept to the craft, which was theater. And so for. And it remains a cherished memory. So that's the background in which we grew up a warm and loving household with some expectation of how the academic life should look like. But that I think is a moral reflection on society than anything else.

I really want to pick on your statement about growing up in a really loving and a warm household and you live in or you have lived in Europe as well. And when I moved to Europe or actually started interacting with Europe and Europeans in work context, and outside world. It was an eye opener that the thing which we Indians and most of the Indians take for granted, a warm and loving household, most likely parents who are still together lovingly. It was such a rarity in Europe for in the Western culture. I don't know what are your thoughts on that? Because I still, it still amazes me and also at the same time makes me feel full of gratitude that I came from that background where I had such loving parents. So my parents all still together, which was almost like a given when I was within the Indian cultural influence. And such a rarity and a gift. When you interact with your Western European counterparts and probably, I think your partner is European as well, and you, I guess, work or spend a lot of time with Europeans. What do you think about this given gift to a lot of South Asians, which we probably appreciate or not that much.

I think you've picked on something really important. Yes, my wife is French, Lebanese. And you know, the culture of France is very different from the culture of Lebanon. And it's very different from the culture in India, which is very different from the culture, say in North America. And these cultural differences are real. So even at insead, you know, I told you, like out of 500 people, they were from hundred countries. So every fifth person is. Is sorry. Like, you know, one in five people is coming from a different background and all of that and reconciling with the fact that there are lots that unite us. Like, we are very similar. We all want many similar things. There are also cultural nuances that become even more pronounced when you say share a life with somebody or work with somebody or build a company with somebody, or go on a vacation with somebody. And Erin Meyer, a professor, Erin's here has written a wonderful book called the Culture Map and then a book on Netflix culture, which provides some useful academic frameworks to look at it. But from my point of view, despite the significant international exposure that I had over the last decade or so, it's still an iterative journey. You see something, you get surprised, you laugh about it, or you laugh at yourself, or you laugh at the situation, and then you move on without trying to feel shy of your culture, which I'm very proud of, you know, our heritage and where we come from, or without feeling any compulsion to change other people and what they believe and how they conduct themselves. Because pretending that there isn't a difference and we are basically the same is.

Is true.

Like we are basically the same in almost all aspects, but in many aspects we are not like in India like the way we think of boundaries, the way we think of, you know, how much time should people spend with each other, how much should people hang, what should people talk about? It's very different from, from that in other countries.

And.

I don't think people understand this intuitively, but somebody needs to make the effort, right? Like either the person on the other side, let's say, or people on the other side, let's say European folks and Indian folks. For, for simplistic. I think the effort needs should be made from both sides to be able to come to a normal in which we can thrive. If we find ourselves becoming overly European and forgetting our Indian ethos, I think that's sad. And the opposite, is that also sad where you expect everyone to turn to our school of thought that you must become Indian for us to be able to have that rapport, that is also misplaced. And there is cultural baggage too. Like, look, we, most people or many people have been brought up in this environment that Europe equal to good and not Europe equal to less good in many aspects. Let's say coolness quotient. For example, foreign trips used to be a thing in the 90s. And that is changing because India is a pretty strong country and a powerhouse in many ways. But it's also despite that, I think the, the confidence that Indian immigrants have in shaping the world order is not just because many CEOs lead big companies, which also helps, but it's also this collective national confidence that is emerging, which I think is a fascinating phenomena to study, like figuring out the, the immigrant confidence, especially doubling down on the Indian immigrant change in attitudes over the, over the, let's say, five decades, I think will be a fascinating academic study.

And how did your transition happen? Like at one point in time, did you decide or with your parents or without them, hey, I want to pursue education or move outside of India. And the second thing which I think connects to our this recent comment. What kind of set of challenges did you face when you moved outside of India the first time? And how do you see any aspirational immigrant or from India or South Asian countries who is planning to do so? What are things which you have usually seen South Asian immigrants face challenges on?

Yeah, so sorry I interrupted you and feel free to mix both the personal and the professional side on this one because I think both are. Both are incredible.

Yeah. Yeah. So by my first, I've gone abroad a few times when my serious adventure living abroad started within Seattle when I went for my mba. And the first shock was the weather because I Never thought that weather was a thing. Like, you know, I mean you generally assume good weather or if you have bad weather, you, you deal with it. But here it was a thing and it, I felt, remember feeling quite cold and just mystified at the beauty. It was stunning. And also just like very surprised at wow, this is, this is very different so from little things and. Growing on from there realizing that, wow, there are so many different people who, who are also talk differently about different things. So I like to talk about substantive issues like politics, policy, strategy stuff. And I would not have pre insead had like a two hour discussion on just the weather or just the food, which now I'm quite adept at having. But, but it was, it was a bit of a learning experience for me.

Or summer, summer plans in Bali versus Cancun.

Yeah, it was not a thing for me. I like, I love that. And now I can again like quite navigate that discussion. But it was just like very surprising that, wow, that cannot possibly take two hours worth of discussion. But then it realized that, oh, this is not just chatter about the outcome, this is just like banter. So you realize that. And also I don't know if you notice that if you're ambitious and if you're Indian or let's say broadly South Asian, you try and get to. They work relatively quickly, even if it doesn't need to be a meeting or something. I think ambition is a big part of the Indian identity, which I think is a bit of surprise or at least used to be a bit of a surprise to, to people in Europe, hey, wow, like we just met, you're talking about quite a few things, but that's who I am, right. So I wouldn't suddenly now I'm not the person who will still talk every day about say the weather or holiday plans for five hours, but occasionally I can, many times I enjoy it. And then sort of changing your style to understand that this person not just literally discussing the weather, but this is a way they're connecting and the conversation will gradually grow. So that's why I said like, you know, the adaptation should come from both quarters and both quarters should be willing to listen. But I am not quite open to completely abandoning my identity or stuff that I'm genuinely interested in talking about to please other people or you know, just to sound a bit more European. That's of no interest to me.

And how did you, sorry, the question preceding this, how did you decide that hey, I want to pursue MBA and from let's say outside India or yeah, Europe, not in us. How did you come to that decision?

So I did have, I was actually quite set on going for an MPP to, to several schools in the US and I had good amount of funding for them. And then I did apply at the last moment for MBA programs in the us, the top tier MBA programs in Europe and US and I, I decided that I basically am a business. Like I like building stuff more than regulating stuff. So I'll probably be slightly less fulfilled even in policy than business. It'll probably also give me allow to move back to policy if I wished. So I decided to change my plans, do an mba. And in the question of Europe versus America or somewhere else, I had just finished up my Ashoka University fellowships. It was one year of pretty serious study and for me one more year of intensive business education, even though I was fairly young, 25 at the time was right because one year was very foundational studying liberal arts, one more year at a top tier place like INSEAD, getting an MBA, getting a really strong network and a really good job after that is something that most MBAs want. But it fit into my plans really well because one year of philosophy liberal arts and two years of MBA becomes a stress. Like you don't want to spend your 20s studying without a break. So one plus one was the right way. One year of masters of one kind, one year of MBA of a certain kind. And I was naturally very drawn to insead, so I was very pleased that I got in because I enjoy diversity of opinions and experiences and it was really entrepreneurship focused, really diverse school in terms of nationality and career outcome. Even though it's true that quite a few people from INSEAD end up at McKinsey, BCG, Bain and the likes, but a lot of them go into entrepreneurship. Actually half the alumni become entrepreneurs in the course of their journey. So this was really attractive to me and I decided to go for that. For my other education which was primarily at Oxford, both the Fellowship master, now the Ph.D. i think for philosophy, Oxford is, is, is a really good place and for research in general it's, it's a pretty solid place. And my, my partner who's, who's based in the uk, it also, you know, geographically it works, works well. So hence here I am.

And you, you met her also while you were in London and how, how did that.

No, I did not. I'm, I met her on the Great Wall of China. We were both doing, attending the World Economic Forum summer Davos there and we met there and decided to get married in 2021.

That sounds like a bit more of a classic story that you don't hear these days a lot.

It was very fun.

We often cover this part, especially because we realized that in our target audience, also in our mission, it's not about having a successful and healthy professional life.

Yeah.

So the first life, which is. Becomes all the more, I think. Did we lose him?

I'm still here.

Me. Yes, it seems like.

Yeah, I think I'm still here. Can you hear me?

I think he'll rejoin.

Can I try calling him?

Let me do that.

I'll give it a couple of minutes. Oh, yeah, he's back.

He's back.

Yeah. Yeah.

I got kicked out of the studio. Maybe it was a Riverside thing.

Oh, yeah. It's really strange. It has never happened before, but it's. You're back on now and I don't think we should have any issues with any problem. We just have to pick up where. Where we left off.

Yeah. Pretty sweet. I think it was. Maybe Riverside was doing something.

Yeah, no, I was just referring to that. I think we also intentionally try to cover the, let's say the personal life aspect as well, because increasingly the world is becoming more, let's say, global. And we see examples of people getting together with partners from different cultures. And, you know, that really adds to the flavor of our discussion as well.

Yeah. Keen.

How you guys met and how. How is your experience been so far living with or being with somebody who doesn't come from the same culture.

Yeah.

Maybe. Maybe highlighting some of the challenges which come with that as well. Yeah.

So once again, we also had a baby.

Yeah.

Yes, we had a baby 100 days back. She's. She's glorious. Very, very proud moment for both of us as parents. And my entire family looks like the micro United nations as well. My brother is married to somebody from Hong Kong. Was a British citizenship. Geeta is French and Lebanese. I am Indian. Very happily so. But the process of living with another person is beautiful. It's also challenging because you have to find a new normal with another human being who's your equal and is now going to be co creating the future with you. So I think it's the most important decision that anyone takes in their professional lives, who they want to be with. And when it comes to people from different cultures, it's a great opportunity to learn about a whole new world, perhaps pick up a language or two. And also, again, like, really appreciate cultural differences and cultural nuances and assuming good intent helps because there will be friction on points big and small. But just assuming that the Intention is towards advancing good. And we just have to work through the logistics and figure out the nuts and bolts. I think is a much healthier way to deal with it. Because if you don't assume good intent, things can get from. Get very tricky because you wouldn't know sometimes whether your friend or your partner or your business collaborator, whether they are attacking you as a person, you as a professional, or your entire culture. And depending on what is the case, it's. Your response can be, you know, modulated. So assuming good intent has been really helpful because even at work, network capitalist people from all around the world, of course I told you about my personal life and I have found this particular process to be intellectually very interesting, intellectually very challenging. But overall I would strongly recommend it because again, I went into it with eyes wide open. So the idea was to, you know, to be open to love and friendship from all corners and do the work that is required to make it comfortable for the other person and vice versa and the other person making it comfortable for you. And we never focused on finding it perfect or just having the idyllic life. Although, you know, we do have touchwood. Quite a good life, thankfully. But there's a lot of work that needs to be done in the process. And I think some friction is good friction. It should exist because we often get used to doing things a certain way. And when somebody challenges it, you're initially surprised and you get defensive and then you probably listen and that's where the growth happens.

And when did you. After how long did you meet? You tied the knot. You said you got married in a week.

I would say that after first meeting, I would say about three and a half years.

And was this entire time.

Sorry, I'm not. I was curious, where are you based at the moment? Because I was. I don't know.

We. This. We have a house in London. That's where we live. We're lucky to have a garden where we take my daughter out for microwalks. And then we also live near Hampstead Heath, which is a glorious place. I hope you both visit. Would love to do a walk and talk with you guys.

I'm both of us, I'm fortunate to have a garden here as well. But I was also curious that like during. So initially when you met, you were on. You were on a. On a visit then the whole time, was it long distance?

Yeah, we both were at that conference at that World Economic.

And at that time you were in India? She was living somewhere else.

She was living in Amsterdam actually, where I think both of you live. Yeah, yeah. So Microsoft made me travel quite a bit for work, so I would travel a lot then I was also very involved with the World Economic Forum, still am, so there was a lot of travel. So we would try and meet once a month, once in one and a half months in a different country. So we ended up covering quite a few countries together and just getting to know each other because, you know, it is a very important decision, so you should do it with eyes wide open. And then exploring the world through each other's eyes, I think gave us the conviction that we can follow through. And then the pandemic happened. Our wedding was postponed and then we. We lived most of the pandemic together. That's when I moved to, to London and where we live now.

And after switching gears back to the professional side a bit after insead, you joined Microsoft. And that was. Was that based out of primarily like the role was from the India Office or was that from. From a different country's office?

I was, I was in the US at the time and my main job was there in essentially part of something called the strategy team. And as part of that there were a bunch of reorganizations that need to be done. That was the same time Satya was implementing a bunch of changes from on Prem to Cloud AI. A whole bunch of product changes are happening. So I was responsible for one aspect of the pie on corporate strategy in the US and then eventually in India and in Microsoft also. I ended up doing quite a few roles. I worked closely with the chairman of the India Office, worked in business development and also on the public policy and government affairs for a while.

Yeah, yeah. The reason why I asked that also because so far in our conversation I've definitely felt that you've gone through. There's a quite a big variety of journeys that you've gone through with different organizations. I would like you to maybe think back and pick in this, in that roller coaster what were perhaps emotionally maybe one which was like the highest moment and one which was perhaps a difficult one. And what happened and how did you. How did those kind of teach you some lessons that you might want to share with our viewers?

Yeah, let me give you a few that come to mind. So one is a fun one. I mean, this particular moment may not have a very big strategic value or anything. Once I was lying in my. In a flat where my girlfriend at the time used to live now and I was heading to Davos for, for some work and I stopped by in London and our phones are very similar. Like most iPhones look the same color. So she picked up my phone by, by mistake. And the email that shows up on your display was from Satya Nadella. And she was very surprised and I think visibly impressed that the CEO of the company is emailing, emailing him. That felt very proud. But as I told you, it was not a particularly consequential moment, but it was fun. It was really fun while it happened. And then in Davos at the time the Prime Minister of India was visiting and I was sort of managing how and what the Microsoft discussion would be and also coordinating with the Prime Minister's office. And there was a storm that evening which meant that Satya Nadella and his team were delayed quite a bit. And there was no, no clarity on when the Prime Minister of India and his team would they wait, who would wait, how would that look? And so forth. So I coordinated with both parties in, in parallel and set up the discussion on that. And then we ended up talking about the smart village that we'd built in Maharashtra. And that led to quite a few engagements after that. But navigating that, sitting on some of those meetings and really driving the agenda forward for India and for Microsoft under the, the guidance of two very prominent leaders was a great learning experience. And in terms of the most difficult period was I would say that Network Capital's initial product, the minimum viable product was built out of Facebook and Facebook worked with us to build a subscription. Yeah, build a subscription. Oh, it's still active. Build a subscription layer on top of the Facebook group which was ideal for us because we had quite a few people, many of them wanted to join. And then one day we just got an email that they have finished stopping that subscription feature. And this group, like the subscription group that did, we had created, would be archived and that meant that the entire business model would be thrown out of the window and everything, it'll all be undone. Like all the efforts, which was like hundreds, maybe thousands of hours of effort would become zero. So I was like, wow, this probably maybe comes to an end. Now we have to look for other ways to exist and so forth. That's when we actually moved from the Facebook based subscription group to Network Capital tv, migrated all our video based content, audio based content to our individual platform and making that happen was both challenging and quite rewarding. So today, this is before being funded by Facebook, but this particular day, this particular process in the middle of the pandemic really pushed my boundaries of how I could manage what I could do. But yeah, it went well eventually, not at the Time.

Second example. On your second example about the World Economic Forum, Davos, you said you were under the energy of two great leaders and also the people who work close to them as a right hand.

I said two prominent leaders.

Yeah, two prominent leaders, yeah. So what are you working with Satya Nadella before as well? I think on certain engagements. What did you learn? What did you observe about their leadership style? Both that one was a corporate leader and others more political leader. Did you picked on certain things? The way of thinking, the way of doing things or executing stuff which you think is some was something really unique about them or their office.

I would say that I do not have a working relationship with the Prime Minister. I've just occasionally met him and seen him. But I have had several meetings with prominent ministers in his cabinet for work. Obviously Network Capital is a partner of Government of India's mentorship Mentor India program. So let me not give a comment on Minister the Prime Minister because my interaction is at least with the Prime Minister is fairly limited. But for Satya Nadella, I would say that he is a remarkably well read person. He can quote Rilke, the poet and the latest developments on generative AI and the economic impact and the policy level implications. It's just like a remarkable person to be around. He's also warm. He remembers you. There is no reason why he should reply to like a young leader going to Davos. Even if he works at Microsoft, he has better things to do or at least more seemingly pressing things to do. But he took time out for me. I obviously delivered. I went for those meetings very well prepared and strive to add value to Microsoft in every possible way. But he was very attentive. He's warm and personable and as he often talks, he's somebody who brings a lot of energy and clarity into the room. This is something that he tells others that this is what leadership strive. But I see him do that really well. He makes the thing clear, he's decisive and he energizes people to do so in a non combative way. Like he won't come and start like you know, becoming a military leader and start yelling at people or you know, disparaging people. That's not a style at all. And I think in today's world that's the need of the hour.

And the other question which I have is you were already seems like doing pretty good in Microsoft. You also mentioned that you gave it all and you also did a. Why did that thought cross your mind about continuing on that journey? Because there's also a Very relatable role model in front of you maybe towards path of becoming chief executive or in that direction and how I know that you got the conviction to pursue network capital full time in about four years, but I'm sure that thought might have crossed your mind. It's like, hey, I, I have clear path in front of me, I'm doing well. I also have relatable role models whom I'm interacting, exchanging information, ideas. And how did you, how did you navigate that decision? Because not, I have to say we have a lot of our peers but not everyone gets to see that kind of exposure. They might be working great companies but everybody is brushing shoulders on a regular basis with world leaders or leaders on big company as well.

So Pallav, it was not like I, I Satya was, you know, he and I would not work on projects every day. I occasionally once or twice a year supported him and that was a fantastic learning experience for me. Hopefully he learned a thing or two from me possibly, but it was definitely not a daily interaction. I wish that were the case but yeah, it was phenomenal. I think I would have done quite well had I stayed on in Microsoft. But I was very happy with my learning and I was ready to take on the next role. And there is a framework which Jeff Bezos has talked about which is called the Regret Minimization Framework. Maybe in your show notes you can add the article that I had written on career transition on Harvard Business Review. So I talk more about it but you regret the things more that you never try. And I wanted to not have that regret of what if. So I went into building Network Cabinet with a very clear understanding of what is my worst case scenario. My worst case scenario would be not so bad actually because I had done a lot of trial and tested. I'd build thousand true fans, it made a little bit of money and the path to growth was clear. Not definite, but clear. And once you're very clear and comfortable and it could all go to zero as well, once you're comfortable with how bad things can be, then you become a bit more daring. I would say so for me, I didn't want to have too many regrets. I maxed or maximized the time that I'd spent in Microsoft giving it my everything, building really strong relationships, developing technical acumen, networks with the partners and peers in the industry. So I felt ready academically, professionally and so forth. And I didn't feel too crippled. But I would be lying if I said I was not anxious about the change. At the same time I was moving Countries starting a new life, getting married and this was all happening in the middle of the pandemic. So was there a scenario where I would be say 10x worse off than I was while at Microsoft? Course. But thankfully that didn't happen. So yes, I remember feeling reasonably anxious but not crippled with anxiety.

I can, I can definitely relate to that, man. I think it's now my sixth. Yeah my fifth week that I left my job at booking and of course while the there's as you said, right like you have that there's always a possibility that you can be 10x, 9x whatever x worse off. But there was definitely a very clear feeling of hey, this is why I need to do this and I would have absolutely no regrets. I would have some regrets if I don't do this now. And but of course there are the highs and lows of this journey of exploration that, that you go on and of course it was good in your case of course you had a fairly good foundation already laid out. You had a clear growth plan which definitely adds to that sense of stability having a plan that you can follow. But I think personally now being in that journey in a way myself like I think even a lot less than that would be completely fine for people like us. Like you've gone to insead, you have the have an MBA from a very reputed business school, you've done a job at Microsoft which is one of the best brands in the tech world. You will be more than fine no matter what direction you go after. So hundred percent makes sense to take that leap of faith.

Yeah man. One has to be very clear. One has to be very clear that things can go all right and things do go all right for some people actually for, for, for several people it could but if you work hard to develop the kind of insurance in your early 20s, mid-20s, I think that that's helpful while taking risks. Again, this is not the only way but I think this is definitely one way. All right, awesome.

I think from my side we are pretty good. This was unless Pallav has any other questions otherwise I think we can slowly bring question and yeah, go on Palav.

We ask every, every expat whom we have interacted with how what's your relate current relationship both emotionally and time invested with your parents? Because I do understand they're still in India.

Yes, they're still in India but my mom came to help out with my child. She's actually still here and it's been absolutely blissful to have her. I'm very close to my parents And I'm very, very, very glad that my mom is here. My brother and his wife, my sister in law, they visited last month. We got to celebrate his birthday. And yes, family means everything to me. Friends mean everything to me. And family and friends are more important to me than absolutely anything, including work of which I take very, very seriously, as both of you know. But if I had to pick an order, I would definitely have family and friends as the most important core value to my life.

And what are you, what is, what are those two or three things? Why that is the case? Is it because how they supported you in your journey or how, what kind of values you imbibe from them growing up? Or like what are those two or three things? Would you say that why that is the case? The family is number one, family and friends.

I would say that family and friends are together number one. But yes, I am. I'm one of those people for whom family is very important. And the primary reason is that you get to share so much of your life, both good and bad, with your friends and family and it just creates like a large canvas on which you play. And of course there's a lot of giving and taking and sharing that happens. But that's, that's a constant. That's who you are. Work is what you do and especially if you love your work, it's an important part of your being. But who you intrinsically are is shaped by some divine forces and some which is family and friends. So that's your core. Everything else comes on top.

How do you feel about your connection to India at the moment?

It's, I would say it's pretty strong network capital still, both paying and non paying users, I would say 50% plus are Indians or of Indian origins. We work, we collaborate with government of India's Niti Aayog free of cost. We support them, run the largest mentorship program. And I think India is going to be an even more interesting and even more strong country in the decades to come. Of course macro factors are in our favor, but it doesn't actually matter which political side wins or remains winning. I think Indians have this confidence and clarity now, which I think will be good for the world and good for us.

Would you see yourself hypothetically moving back at any point of time for any reason? How do you see that?

Yes, that could be considered at some point, but it's not imminent. It's not something that I'm exploring immediately, but yes, it could.

Yeah, I think that's both of these and especially I don't know, if you've you probably you read a lot, so you've probably heard about the hero's spiritual journey. And I think someone who goes on the path does find that their roots are where at some point of time, that journey kind of takes them back.

Yes.

Always a possibility.

Yeah. Yeah.

Interestingly, two days back, I wrote a newsletter. I mean, not on Hero's Journey, but essentially what Odysseus teaches us about life and startups, etc. So I love classics, love learning from all spectrums of life, and it was really a pleasure speaking with both of you. Akshay and Pallav, likewise.

I think we're gonna have a lot of links for the footnotes. And on that note, we can say a big thank you once again, man. Really had a good conversation.

Cheers to both of you. Have a great day.

Bye.