EP 184 | Valentin Radu - How Omniconvert avoided death and pivoted into a blue ocean

Hey there. Today's episode is brought to you by Vitally. Vitally is redefining customer success with Vitally AI, your purpose built AI copilot for ces. It helps teams summarize customer conversations instantly, generate action plans and automate the busywork so you can focus on driving outcomes, not chasing data. They're also currently giving away a free pair of AirPods to all Trin FM listeners when you take a qualified demo with them. So if you're in the market for a CS platform, visit vitally IO churnfm today to schedule your demo and get your AirPods. That's v I t a l l y IO c h u R N F M If you decide to check them out, please make sure to use the links quoted as it allows them to measure the ROI of this campaign and helps me retain them as our sponsors to continue producing Churn FM as an independent creator. Hey, it's Andrew. And today on the show we have Valentin radu, founder and CEO of OmniConvert. In this episode, Valentin shares an overview of OmniConvert pre and post pivot along with the moment they realized they needed to change directions. We then ran through the power of the competitive muscle that competitors with deeper pockets and stronger tensions can impose, forcing you out of acquisition channels. And we wrapped up by discussing the research methodology Valentin used to evaluate the opportunity and set the new company direction. As usual, I'm excited to hear what you think of this episode and if you have any feedback I would love to hear from you. You can email me directly on andrewn fm. Don't forget to follow us on Twitter and enjoy the episode. You don't just gun for revenue in the door. This is Churn fm, the podcast for subscript economy pros. Each week we hear how the world's fastest growing companies are tackling Churn and using retention to fuel their growth. How do you build a habit forming product?

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Profitable and growing strategies, tactics and ideas brought together to help your business thrive in the subscription economy. I'm your host Andrew Michael and here's today's episode. Hey Valentin, welcome to the show.

Hi there Andrew and hello everyone.

It's great to have you. For the listeners, Valentin is The founder and CEO of OmniConvert, a growth enabler for mid sized D2C, E commerce and retail companies looking to increase customer lifetime value and decrease customer acquisition costs. Valentin started his career as A radio show host producer before moving into sales and then Valentin then later founded Etc, an advertising agency that he built from the ground up and later sold. So tell us a little bit about then OmniConvert. What is you do? Obviously I gave a brief intro to it, but maybe just a little bit more context for the audience.

Sure. OmniConvert has been transformed. We initially started as a conversion rate optimization platform. Then we suddenly realized that we are in the red ocean and we needed to pivot. And now we are helping e commerce and retailers to make sense of their data and focus on their customers in order to improve customer lifetime value and acquire the right customers, therefore decreasing their customer acquisition costs. So basically we are now struggling with the most impactful problem that they have at this moment, which is the rising cost of advertising at this moment.

Yeah, there's been a big shift in that space, I think specifically as well with Apple and the changes around privacy. And so obviously like I mentioned to you this before the show as well, I was always new. OmniConvert is the conversion rate optimization platform and while doing a little bit of research for this episode, just sort of seen how you've really hyper focused the positioning and made that shift. But maybe you can share with us a little bit about the backstory of like how the shift came about and what was it that really drove you to get where you are today?

Yeah, for sure, for sure, Andrew. So to give you the backstory, I've started this company because I was suffering for my previous company which was an E commerce company. We paid too much to acquire customers that never came back. Customer lifetime value was very important and conversion rate was very important for them. And we decided to build something that would help us to become more relevant and that would help us to tweak the website and we've built this technology. After that I made the exit because we've been very, very impactful with our efforts. So we increased the conversion rate by 60% and I thought to myself, you know what? Everyone would need such a tool. I was biased of course. And after launching it, we got to small companies like we were and we were fighting with the churn, right. So they couldn't adopt the product because they haven't knew how to run a B testing experiments. So basically I thought that everyone does what I'm doing. I mean staying all day in Google Analytics and coming up with hypotheses and looking at User Journey. But the surprise was that pretty much nobody did that. So even though we've got something like at some Point we were pushing very hard on acquisition and we've got 20,000 users. I draw the line and I looked there that we had, you know what, we have only 300 users that are still staying with us. So I got there back to the drawing board and I needed to tweak the product. But in the meantime I lost the trend because optimizely started to show up. They basically blocked any type of advertising opportunity on the queries that had the purchase intent for a B testing and whatever. So before they raised something like, I don't know, 170 million, something like that, before that the cost per click was around one, one and a half dollars. After that it was $23. And we said what are we doing? I mean how, how will you, how will we acquire customers? And basically after that realization we've said, you know what, we need to go up market. Even though we raised some money, we, we hired a lot of sales reps. We've got some, at some point we've got 20 sales reps which were acquiring customers that stayed with us only for three months and we've said no, we, we need to go up market. So it was a mess at some point. So basically I was completely lost and I thought that yeah, I'm gonna, we're gonn. I've had all these grim scenarios but we needed to restructure. I've been very transparent to the team. We've restructured the whole company. We kept, at some point we were like 75 people and we've got back to 42 or something like that. So mainly we needed to do something about it and that something was to go up market and to serve large companies which needed not only the technology but also our models. And throughout this experience in 2019 when we realized that we can't scale it anymore, I've personally made 250 interviews with E commerce managers. So basically I've got out there on LinkedIn, I made outreach and I've talked to them. So I jumped into calls with them to understand where I should be pivoting the company because we couldn't scale with the, in the conversion rate optimization space due to those facts and also to the fact that Google Optimize was a free tool and basically our points of difference weren't there. So thanks to that I realized that hey, the need on the market is not only to optimize the website, but to optimize the entire customer journey. And one of the things that they are fighting with is also customer retention and customer lifetime value. So I'VE seen the opportunity. I've worked with some of our existing clients because they were also reaching a plateau on tweaking the website to convert more. And after that, we've built a new product and a new offering called OmniConvert Reveal. We've built a whole academy around the topic because I've learned my lesson. If people don't know how to use your tool, it doesn't matter how expensive or cheap that tool is. So in order to have the adoption and to have the retention, you need to have a tool which is. Is providing undeniable value to the customer. Undeniable. That's the key component here. So pretty much that's what we've done. And nowadays we are crafting a new category around customer value optimization.

Very cool. Not cool, obviously the backstory behind it, but just sort of the process and method you've got here. And I think we can spend a lot of time going into what was the research that you did with the customers? In a bit. But I'm also interested, like you mentioned a couple of things and this is actually something I've heard before specifically around the conversion rate of optimization space. Obviously previously at Hotshow also having like worked with at some point some X optimizedly folks, I think they also came to a similar realization as you is that just there's not so many sophisticated teams out there that are running experimentation at scale which justifies having a platform for conversion rate optimization. So they also, I think realize very, very small markets and then like you said, like close you out of different channels. This is something that we also talk about a little bit on the show and it's an interesting concept because one of the greatest benefits of having really, really strong retention and customer lifetime value is it affords you to spend a lot more money on advertising and marketing, which ultimately forces customers and competitors out of these channels. So you experienced that firsthand, like, what was that attack like for you? Obviously you mentioned like the costs going through the roof, but sort of like when did you realize this was happening? And then was this one of the main reasons that drove the change in strategy?

Yeah, it was clear that the adoption of the product and the churn was too high to bear anymore. So we had this dashboard and we were looking at all sorts of metrics like onboarding, rate, whatever, and we realized that with this, if we continue with this churn and with this new revenue, we're going to go bankrupt in something like we got something like eight months and we had to do something about it. And the solution was to of course, make it so that you can continue. I mean, we were bleeding money every month, every day. And it was the mental state that you have when you feel like you are not going to be able to pay your colleagues, your employees, the ones that are there for you. It's one of the worst things because it's not about yourself, it's about the others, which they've put their trust in you. They've said, you know what, I'm going to change my destiny and I'm going to come every day to this office and I'm going to follow this pattern. I mean, if you care about people, it's very tough to. So that feeling made me change things and to shift towards abundance eventually. Because if you don't have a wealthy company, you can't hire the right talent, you can't get the best minds out there and you are not going to be fulfilled. And myself, my personal story is that I'm here to make it big or go home. I mean, it's clear that I'm a high achiever. And that frustration, I wasn't about selling up. So even though we had the points when we could do some exits, I've said no, I want to make it work. And that's why we're going to pivot to other space.

Yeah, that's interesting. The high achiever components. I heard a quote once and it's always stuck with me. It's like it's almost the same amount of effort to build like a million dollar business as it is to build a billion dollar business. Like you need to do all the same work, you need to do, go through all the same efforts. One, it's difficult to say. One is more difficult than the other. Maybe like the complexities changed certainly, but you still need to put in that amount of it. So if you're going to go for it, you might as well go for it, I think is one aspect. The other thing as well that she's mentioned, and I'm interested on this, is that the team grew to over 70 people and then you needed to sort of let people go as well. After seeing it, the retention wasn't there for the business. But how did you get to that point of like rapid growth and then realizing it was there sort of any moment in time? Like you mentioned, just looking at the churn rates, but in the early stages, did you really just see like there was this greenfield and rapid growth and acceleration and that's what caused the hiring or was anything else that you were Seeing in the market at the time.

Yeah, it was, it was a mix of things. One, one thing was that we, we raised capital and we could afford to, to hire more people, better trained people and to get more users at the same time. Before that it wasn't we were doing this type of concierge onboarding. We were basically doing a lot of extra miles for the users. And the Churn wasn't that present because we haven't got a user base which was large enough to give us the statistical relevance. But once we, we, we had the money to acquire enough users then the, the, the, the bad signs started to, to show up and we needed to, to, to do something about it.

Yeah, I think this is definitely something, a very, very common thing is where early stage growth sort of masks the, the negative effects of Churn and you don't realize it until it's often too late. We similarly as well at hotjar like there was an exercise at some point where we did calculated the growth ceiling basically looking at if we never change any different growth marketing tactics today and we just continue acquiring at the rate we're acquiring today, like when would we stop growing? And that was sort of a moment in the company when everyone said okay, like maybe we should be paying attention to Churn our attention a little bit more than we think at this stage. And I recommend this as well to a lot of people. Like if you haven't done it yet, it's like a good calculation just to try and say okay, how much of an issue is this and how much is growth currently masking the issues, the underlying issues. Cool. So you, you mentioned then at some point, okay, the team realized this, we need to, to fix this, we need to sort it out. And you went out and you spoke to 250 different people. I think that's amazing. Can you walk us through a little bit about that process and what it looked like and how you sort of ended up synthesizing the information to, to make a pivot into what omniconvert is today.

Yeah. So to start with, it was a lucky accident. Even though I don't believe in accidents. I've met Bob Mesta and I've read his book about demand side sales and jobs to be done. And I had this procedure, let's say this method to ask the right questions so that I can understand the struggles which can be addressed by something that we already have. So my hypothesis is what if we've already built something which can be useful for other use case which is not conversion rate optimization and that's why I wanted to inspect this and to validate this hypothesis. And I've made calls with existing customers so that I can understand how they are seeing the world and what they are struggling with according to their position. And also I've made this calls with people that I've never met. I've just asked them on LinkedIn that looking at your expertise, you seem like a very knowledgeable person. I want to pick your brain on how to scale on E commerce. And also I let him know that I'm a former e commerce entrepreneur. So basically I've asked them to have a conversation, an open conversation around the topic of e commerce growth. So some of them said yes, some of them haven't said yes. But that's an important aspect Andrew, is that we validated that the customer retention was a problem big enough by doing initially a state of the market survey. So we've got something like 900 respondents with through outreach. So basically we've made outreach on LinkedIn to understand if customer retention is actually a problem which is important enough. And we've said we've validated on enough people that this is a problem which is big enough. And then I've got to make this in depth research which finished basically last summer when I validated how people are articulating these type of problems if they have resources, if they can allocate resources, how they are solving, solving the problems right now. Why is this a problem not only for the company but for them as an individual and for them as. Because in the mid size to enterprise context you need to do two type of sales, right? You do the sale to the internal champion which is there and advocating for you and you also do a sale for the company itself which is a group buying where you need to understand what kind of messaging to use. And basically that's how I realized that how to craft the product, how to prioritize some features on the product and to be honest, we are not there. I mean it's always a gap between what the customers really need, what they think they need and what we've built already. So this gap is always going to be there and my suggestion is to come to terms with this because you can't find peace if you want to do that fantastic product. You're always going to have troubles on deep delivering the features and whatever. But my, my initial approach was to, to, to build features and then to validate them with the market. So thankfully, thank God that I, we haven't got wiped out by the market to, to, to Change that. And now to apply these principles, these healthy principles, because I think maybe if someone wants to get a single thing out of this conversation is do customer research and make sure that you have enough, a big enough sample size. Because when I was a younger entrepreneur, I mean in this rodeo, for nine years already, when I was a younger entrepreneur, I've been always enthusiast and I was passionate about things and I wasn't having enough patience because I was young and full to validate that this is a problem that must be addressed. And those are the consequences of the problem. Because. And that's the thing from the, from the jobs to be done methodology which I'm still applying. It is not only about the struggling moment which is making people say, you know what, I'm going to fix this once and for all. It's also about the ways that they are now using to solve that problem. And now we are. And that's when we realize, for instance, we are solving this problem of customer lifetime value for E commerce and retailers. But they have numerous ways to solve that. Right now they are doing loyalty programs, they are changing their agencies because they think that their agency is the problem. They are hiring more people in the customer service, they are doing concierge onboarding, but God forbid to look at their data. You know, our solution to that problem is, you know what, we'll give you the data, we'll give you the segments of your customers, we'll help you understand which are the products which are bringing you the most sticky customers and will help you get real time feedback from your best and worst customers so that you can treat what's broken in your customer journey. But that's not how they fix this problem beforehand. So that's how it went for us so far.

I just wanted to give a quick reminder that our sponsor of this episode today is Vitaly and they are giving away a free pair of AirPods to all qualified demos. So if you're in the market for a new CS platform, make sure to visit Vitaly IO forward slash Churn FM today and let them know I sent you. Now back to the episode. Very interesting. Yeah, and definitely I'd echo on the customer research, I think from our side as well. In the early like startup journey was like I spent a lot of time focusing on data and I think it's specifically at an early stage. Like data is bullshit. Like I think there's so much mixed signals you get from it because you just don't have the amount of data that a mature company has to give you good signals. And like customer conversations, like, nothing beats the insights that you're going to gather from like 10, 20 calls versus, like spending a few hours going through your data. The other thing that's interesting, I think you mentioned, and it's something overlooked as well, is that you not only did you speak to your existing customer base, but you also went to sort of an unknown base, an unknown audience, which typically would be like a panel study. You would also take a look at it Sunny. And I think this is very interesting because the, like, your customers that you have today are a direct reflection of the marketing that you've done in the product you've built up until that point. And in this case, like Omnic Convert is a perfect example of this is like the people you've acquired is people that want to work on conversion rate optimization. And that was a problem, but it doesn't necessarily represent the best opportunity for your business. And as you've seen as well on the other side. So getting feedback and input from people that aren't your customers at the point, but operate in a similar market and repurposing your software is sort of a fantastic way actually to sort of see how you can scale and grow an organization at the same time. So a lot of things we talk about on the show, like you've literally gone through almost all of them, ticking them off from the box as you go through.

Yeah, one, one aspect that I think it must be, must be addressed to Andrew here is that you have to, you have to have the recordings of those interviews because when you are actually playing during the interview, you are concerned and you have your train of thought. But when you are looking at the recordings, you might notice some aspects which are very important out there. And another thing is to note down how they are articulating the problem. I mean, what are the consequences of the problem? Because those things are your next marketing campaigns. Right. So your email subjects are there, for instance. We've got this very often. When do you need such a solution? And the recurring theme was when I've noticed in Google Analytics that my agency's capabilities are done. I mean, they noticed that their agency wasn't doing what they should be. And it's very important to understand what is the struggling moment when they are doing this, because it's not about the solution, it's more about the problem. And I've, I've learned this multiple times that I've made this presentation recently at the conference at how to Web here in Bucharest. It's back, I don't know, five, six, Years ago, the solution to any problem, like would we haven't acquired enough customers. We don't have traction, we don't have our churn is too high. The universal solution to this problem was build more features, and those features were invalidated. So I call this a disease, which is called feature itis.

I like that. You're tearing me up. I think too much as well, because obviously part of building Avrio, the company that I founded as well now through the podcast, is we provide tools for you to analyze and share customer research. So we do actually provide a service where you can upload your user interviews. We automatically transcribe them for you, and then we also use machine learning to automatically detect questions and provide summaries, so help speeding up that process of analysis for your interviews. But it definitely is a valuable process to go through. And like you said, like, when you're having those conversations, it's often more important to actually focus on asking the right questions and trying to take notes and things to remember. Because otherwise, if you're just going through like a standard script, you end up missing out, like a lot of the good that you get from the jobs to be done framework as well, and drilling into the pain points and the problems and the times.

Yeah, that's right.

So you, you spent the time, you did all of these interviews, like, you started to identify some other opportunities that lay, like you mentioned as well, that perhaps you'd build some software that could be repurposed and then service like this other form of the market. What did that discussion then look like internally? Like, how did you go about saying, okay, team? Like, I know we've been going in one direction all along. Like, yeah, that's not the direction anymore.

Yeah, so that, that was one of the hardest things, you know, to change the focus, you know, because you have, as a founder, as an entrepreneur, you are so enthusiastic about it, about this thing, you know, and you say, let's go to Miami. Then you find some people which are willing to go to go to Miami with you. And during this process, you're always, that's your job, you know, as an entrepreneur, to look for opportunities to validate if Miami is the right place to go. And during the process, when you get a lot of people excited about going to Miami, you realize that, you know, it's too hot in Miami. You know, the music is not so good, it's very expensive. And you need to come up with, to justify why you actually need to go to Paris instead of Miami. Paris is closer. And you have this basically, I'VE learned this the hard way that people are so resistant to change. Because as an entrepreneur, you are changing very quickly. That's your ability, I don't know, to not get so in love with your past ideas. And you need to. To challenge your own hypothesis because if you don't do that, you are not going to discover the right path. And internally, it was very hard. So I've made this exercise multiple times. So eventually I needed to convince and to fight with some of the best, the most senior people in here and to persuade them. Before doing that, I was struggling. So I've carved out the team and we were working on this new project while the entire company was working on what they always did. And it was until I got this internal alignment, nothing was moving and I was perceived as changing too fast is not going to work. That's a crazy idea. Who needs that? And I needed to respond to these things and to paint out a better future, which is towards this new blue ocean that we are getting through. And that's how I made it happen eventually. But it's a process and for me it was very helpful to read some books. One of that was Play Bigger, which basically convinced me that. But it's possible to actually carve out a new category and it's such a hard to get objective that it's exciting and frightens me at the same time.

Yeah, I think Playbig is an interesting one. I was actually chatting a while back to. I think it's Al Ramadan to get him on the show. One of the authors of the book. I really, really enjoyed that. So I definitely recommend Play Bigger around thinking about category creation as well and going after a big opportunity and yeah, so I definitely feel that as well, like as an entrepreneur myself, like you, you're not precious with the idea. Like you, you should stay focused on the problem and that you're trying to solve. But like the end solution or the result is something they should be willing to scrap and give away. But also see like internally with the team, like where they decide, okay, Miami is the place I want to be, like, this is what I want to do. That it is quite difficult sometimes for people to get on board. And especially like if in an early stage you might need to change two or three times. And being able to keep the team along with you on that journey, I think is also a skill that you pick up after time is like, are there any sort of things that you've seen that have been effective, like navigating through this.

First of all, to be to be honest about what you feel without downsizing the importance of what you already do. So in order to pivot, you need to be very cautious because people are there for you, for the other colleagues, but also for the dream that you've sold to them. So selling another dream, it's a job of actually making them aware about what's going on in the market and coming up with support. Because another thing that is happening, you are the visionary, usually the founder is the visionary and you are always coming up throwing ideas at them and they are fed up with the new ideas because someone needs to execute on those ideas and you are not that person. You're always going to excite them about new things and you're always going to let them do their job because that's why they are in the company. So basically one suggestion would be to emphasize why is this important and how is this going to affect them as well, because you are working on this position and what's this position going to look like? For instance, we have a consulting arm and we are working with large companies to help them in the conversion rate optimization and with the data analysis. But how is this going to affect them in the future? How that team is going to be affected and that's going to be affected by training other agencies. And now we have a program and we have a whole academy around this. We teamed up with the heavy hitters in this space and now our team is helping basically other agencies and other competitors to provide this type of services and emphasizing how this thing is going to affect all the roles, all the positions, and building a momentum, finding out the right momentum, where you already have the most senior people and the influencers within the team that could help you out. Because it's not only a matter of the managers, because you can have people with very, very large authority which are just, I don't know, you can have someone which is just a front end developer, but he has so big charisma and influence within the company that you need his help as well. So you need to talk with everyone which has the power to convince the other ones that this path must be taken. And if you have the right people on the bus, like it's that saying it doesn't matter where the bus is going, right? So if you have enough good people that are there for you and for the initial cause, you can, you can make them jump on board to the next, next chapter of your existence.

Yeah, nice. I see we're on up on time, so I want to make sure I ask two questions. Ask every guest. Let's imagine a hypothetical scenario. You arrive at a new company, channel retention is not doing great and the CEO comes to you and says, hey Valentine, you need to turn things around. You have 90 days to do it. What do you do? The catch is you're not going to tell me. I'm going to go and speak to customers and figure out their pain points or I'm not going to look at data and try and figure out from there. You're just going to take a tactic that you've seen either work at one of your clients companies or your company itself and run with that blindly hoping that it helps reduce churn. What would you do?

That's a tough one, man, but I think I can shoot in the dark a bit. Yeah. One tactic would be to get the customer success to make it harder for at least 2, 3 weeks for people to get rid of the solution unless they give us the reasons why. Find out what is the distribution of those reasons, what is the distribution? What is the percentage? And fix that. Try to fix that. If it's a marketing team, if it's a product problem, if, if it's a knowledge problem, to fix that because it's clear that people are voting with their wallets and if the churn is the problem, it's clear that you are doing something wrong.

Yeah. And you cop tiled it a little bit there by saying using customer success to speak to the customers instead of yourself. But I'll let you have it.

All right, so let's not use that. We simply interrogate the. We put there an open answer to the customers before abandoning our product to tell us with their own words, which are at least 50, why they haven't. They are not using the product anymore. That's, that's my nice.

What's one thing you know today about channel retention that you wish you knew when you got started with your career?

One thing is that it, it's not like gravity. So it's something that can be fixed. So, and, and it's. But it's as important as gravity to your business. I think that's, that's the thing that I should have known early, early in my career.

I like that a lot. Very cool, Valentin. Well, thank you so much for joining us. Any final thoughts you want to leave the listeners with or how they could keep up with your work?

Yeah. I want to say something to you. Maybe there are people which are struggling right now with their businesses. Maybe there are people which are trying a lot of things because media is giving us a Lot of cool examples of, I don't know, very cool entrepreneurs that made it. But for every entrepreneur which made it, Maybe there are 99 that haven't made it just yet. My suggestion is to find it in your heart to continue, because you can make it. You will eventually make it. Maybe not with this business model, maybe with another one, but. But don't give up on yourself. And something that was crucially important for me and that could avoid my burnout back in 2017, was not to put the equal sign between you as an individual, as a person and your results. Because you can be a fantastic human being without the results, and you can have fantastic results by being a jerk. So the game plan is to have a life and to be. To. To. To accept yourself as you are. Because if you accept yourself as you are, you will. The results will follow eventually. You. You can't avoid being successful if you have a good relationship with yourself and you are not beating up yourself too much, like I did. Basically.

Yeah, it's a tough thing to do as well, I think, because like entrepreneurs, typically you set a really high bar for yourself. And also what that does is set you up for disappointment very, very easily. But then if you actually take a step back and you look around you and you say, like, wait, it, like, we've actually done a hell of a lot and a lot more than 99% of people would do, there's a lot to be proud of. But I think it's very, very hard just to switch that mindset and say, okay, like, let's focus on. On what's good. Yeah, but I like a great way to end. Valentin, thank you so much for joining and I wish you best of luck now with a new direction going forward.

Thank you as well, Andrew, and all the best from Bucharest.

And that's a wrap for the show today with me, Andrew Michael. I really hope you enjoyed it and you're able to pull out something valuable for your business to keep up to date with Churn FM and be notified about new episodes, blog posts and more. Subscribe to our mailing list by visiting Churn fm. Also, don't forget to subscribe to our show on itunes, Google Play, or wherever you listen to your podcasts. If you have any feedback, good or bad, I would love to hear from you and you can provide your blunt, direct feedback by sending it to Andrewn fm. Lastly, but most importantly, if you enjoyed this episode, please share it and leave a review as it really helps get the word out and grow the community. Thanks again for listening. See you again next week. And with that, just want to say thanks again to Vitaly for sponsoring this episode. If you do decide to check them out at V I T a l l y.IO c h u r n fm, please make sure to let them know that I sent you. Because tracking podcast advertising is traditionally very difficult, and I want to make sure that we deliver value on this campaign so that we can retain them as our sponsors. Thanks again for listening, and we'll see you next week.