From Premier League to Premium Health. The Thomas "Hal" Robson Story.

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Welcome to E Commerce Growth Stories. This is your hostess with the mostest, Juliana Jackson, aka the CLV lady. And also I am the Chief Evangelist for OmniConvert.

And this is Valentin Radu, CEO of OmniConvert. Thank you for tuning in today for a new episode of E Commerce Growth Stories.

Do you like snooping around? I know I do.

I don't know.

Did you ever wonder what Sony uses to power their e commerce business? Or Coca Cola or Motorola or other big names in E commerce and retail? Well, today the secret is gonna be revealed and I am talking about Vitex. Vitex is the first and only fully integrated commerce marketplace and OMS solution that offers fastest time to revenue and no upgrades like ever. So if you're an E Commerce brand and you're looking to find a software that can really become a powerhouse to your business, providing you the best go to market speed, flexibility, daily updates and reports, and overall platform stability and agility, you really have to check these guys out. So make sure you go to visit vtex.com that's vtex.com today and give that ecommerce business the boost today at the Ecommerce Growth Stories, myself and Valentin have a super special guest and that's Thomas Howe Robson Kane, the founder of Turmeric. Before he was playing the ecommerce game, Thomas was playing in the Premier League for a rating club and now he's playing for West Brom. Thomas's Turmeric is his secret weapon, claiming that using Turmeric as a nutritional supplement saved his footballing career, but also help him recover from a cruciate knee ligament rupture. And we're talking with him today to learn more about what were his challenges in starting Turmeric and turning it in one of the top UK health brands. But also I'm very curious what's going to happen this season of Premier League. So, yeah, enjoy this episode filled with the cameras and football or soccer for the American listeners. Enjoy. So I'm gonna start, I always start this podcast asking a question. How did you get into E Commerce? Your story is crazy and I admit I was very excited about this episode. So just to give people a bit of a background, Thomas is a professional football player, he plays in the Premier League and he has, I think 45 international caps to your name, if I'm correct. Cool. And right now he's the founder of Turmeric and this company produces a wide range of Turmeric shots to help enhance health and energy levels. And it's clear, you know that for Thomas, wellness and looking after yourself is something that you value a lot. So tell us, how did you move from Premier League to, you know, Premier Premium Health, as I call it?

Yeah, so. Well, it's good to be able to be doing both at the same time, which I'm fortunate enough to be doing at this present moment. But, yeah, the how it happened was that effectively we had created. So my family, when I was young, created effectively a blend of natural ingredients, one of which was turmeric root, which ultimately helped me recover from some major injuries, which standard medication and prescription drugs weren't helping me recover from. So the power, power of this natural ingredient effectively changed my life. And it was in 2016 when I saw a turmeric shot from a variant from a random brand on the shelf in a. In a store in London called Harrods. And I bought it because, you know, I'd used it throughout my career. And, you know, using these. Creating these shots by hand is very, very difficult. Anyone who knows about turmeric as a natural raw route will know that it's a really hard route to use on a consistent daily basis. But we'd perfected a way of doing this at home. But seeing it on shelf was, you know, from convenience perspective, was phenomenal to see. So, you know, as a young footballer, you do bought the whole shelf, you know, took them home, very excited to show my family, and we went to drink it and we all had to spit it out. It was, you know, made of apple juice, it was made with turmeric powder. It clearly wasn't made for function. And what we had created out of necessity was, you know, truly a functional blend. And this was back in 2016. So it was at that point where we then did some research into the turmeric market and began realizing that although we had been using this ingredient for over a decade, a lot of clinical studies and research had been conducted throughout that time which were beginning to support the natural benefits of turmeric as an ingredient and for health. And so we then looked into the turmeric market and realized that it was a growing market. There were growing trends within the market. But then we actually looked into the market itself and realized that 0% of the products on the market actually offered the function that you should be getting from turmeric. And that's because they were either powdered capsules, they were. They would say, it's a turmeric shot, but they would have 99% apple juice in and, you know, 0.2% turmeric powder. And so what we then did, you know, we realized that we had to bring what we were making at home to market. And we basically went on a journey of two years in terms of building a brand, building a production facility to produce the range and the quality of what we were making at home at scale, which really wasn't easy. I'm sure over time we'll share some really interesting footage and some videos around the journey as we continue to grow. But we built this bespoke production facility, scaled up the process, built a team who's dedicated in a mission of bringing natural health to as many people as possible through our range. And we launched in 2018. And prior to launch, probably, well, during the whole process we had the discussion within the business around whether we should look to penetrate retail so, you know, bricks and mortar look to get this, the, the product on shelves or whether we should, you know, build it as a digitally native vertical brand and look to offer a direct consumer experience through the brand. And this was my preference because, you know, I'm still, you know, very into technology. You know, it was a massive, you know, I like everything technological now. You know, whether it's communication, whether it's, you know, blockchain technology, I'm, you know, I like to, to be involved in it all. And from my perspective at that time, which is still, obviously a lot has changed since then, but it was clear to me that we were seeing a shift in consumer purchasing behavior and that it was shifting towards that, you know, the convenience in terms of receiving the product, you know, the habitual nature of, you know, ordering direct from your preferred brand of choice. And so we went down this route and again, because it's a fresh product, it's chilled, it has to be kept chilled. So on top of the layer of, you know, building a brand, building a product at scale, building a production facility, building a team, we then had to build a layer of logistically being able to deliver this freshly chilled product to consumers door without any issues. And yeah, we launched in 2018 and have grown month on month, year on year. And yeah, last year it was obviously given what happened, it was, I'm sure we'll go through it, but yeah, it's been a fantastic experience.

So Thomas, I have a question to ask you which is actually coming from Barry. How long would a person need before noticing some effect of the product? I do know the answer, but you let us know as well.

Yeah. So again, so customer feedback is phenomenal. We've got nearly 10,000 customer reviews talking about the impact that the product and the range has had on their health and well being. And everyone is very different. So we get a variety of customer feedback. Some customers will say from the moment they took their first shot, they noticed a difference. Whether it be an uplift, a reduction of inflammation, reduction of pain, or whether it's the consistent usage of the product over a four to six week period where they have ultimately built up that additional nutrition into their body and then begin to realize that they wake up fresher, they're not as stiff in the morning, or they just have a higher level of well being. One thing we are experiencing though is that a lot of customers, our customers and obviously a lot of society because we have been, we're in a westernized diet. So our diet does not consist of what our bodies historically, in terms of our ancestors have been used to. And this shift has happened relatively quickly in terms of, you know, if you look at our ancestors, whether it be thousands of years, the diets that they would eat, as opposed to say the last hundred years where we have very rapidly shifted towards a commercialized fast food, nutrient depleted supply and products and driven through convenience, taste and ultimately the company supplying it, they're seeing growth in these products. So why not deliver more products to them? Even though it's harming society and things like, you know, there's never been a higher level of, you know, disease throughout our society in our history, you know, so for all of our technological advancements and everything that, you know, we have access to, that seems a little bit off and fundamentally that's down to nutrition. So what we've experienced with a lot of our customers is that they're already nutrient deficient. So because our products and, you know, the shots are so powerful in the sense that they have, you know, they're packed with, you know, compounds which people just won't have consumed in their life. Whether that be curcumin, you know, ginger roll, whether it be, you know, the black pepper extract or piper and extract and then combined all together, the power of this, this blend immediately has an impact, you know, once consumed and you know, it's, it's really good to see, but it's, it's nature. So we're not, we're not a supplement. We've just harnessed nature's most powerful foods and offer it to our customers in a convenient manner. So.

That'S awesome. I wanna, I wanna take like a step back when you were moving from home to, you know, a more productized environment where you can, you know, mass produce the, the product and also distribute it and a lot of people watching, because I have the privilege to see who's watching right now are E commerce entrepreneurs that just started the business and a lot of them have their business still in their kitchen, right. Or in their living room and they're doing everything from their home. So what would be like your main chat, what were your main challenges back then and how you overcame them and what's your advice on how you can from living room?

Yeah, I would say the biggest, the biggest, the biggest thing you need to do is initially get that brand awareness and through a community. So you want to have that initial traction within, you know, whether it's through the product or through the brand to actually pull in, you know, get eyes on your, you know, on what you're offering. I think if you can do that and then almost develop a compounding effect where you then, you know that through word of mouth a majority of the time because of what you're offering is whether it's unique or different, then you can begin to build a community that way. The big thing is, you know, I know and a lot of my friends, you know, I know lots of different founders in the space now from ranging from, you know, whether it be, you know, 1 million turnover businesses, you know, and last week I was, you know, sat in the meeting room, well, not sat in the meeting room, sat in a digital meeting room with a, with a founder of an online brand which has done 100 million revenue in over the last 12 months. So all of their experiences is, you know, they all do say the same thing and it's almost like you don't want to run before you can walk. You want to really make sure that what you're offering, you know, has a good product market fit. But then you're able to actually, you know, communicate the message not on a one off basis. So it has some form, you know, it's sticky. You know, you have to have that sort of element of traction with it. And, and sometimes it may not be because the product isn't good. It may be because of the way you're communicating with your, your, your, your customer or your audience and that may be prior to, you know, purchasing or post purchasing. And you know, and it's all, you know, if you can get that initial community, that initial traction of loyalists around what you're doing then, you know, then I think, I think it offers you a base layer to accelerate from. And ultimately there's the point. What I was going to say before is everyone thinks, you know, let's go and you Know, let's get onto Facebook ads and let's get onto, you know, Google search, Google shopping. And it's. It's really, you know, that. That's not the. That's not the first step which you want to run with.

I love that. Sorry, Valentine.

So.

So, Thomas, tell us a bit about your. Let's say, how were the. How was your family seeing your new. Your new venture back then? Because I can bet that there were. Maybe there was some resistance. Everyone were aware about your identity as a footballer and now suddenly you want to be an entrepreneur and not only an entrepreneur in sports, but in something which is related, but it's, let's say, nearby.

Yeah, it's a really good question. I think. Unfortunately, you know, prior to launching, I had sort of not proven myself in the business world, but I'd showed, you know, whether it was in a few different companies. I've been involved in a few different ventures and I showed quite early on in my life that I liked things outside of sport. So generally when I would sort of get into something, it would be, you know, I'd be really serious about it. And often than not, you know, I'd find a way to make it work, you know, depending on the scale, you know, and I've sort of got a knack for doing that. Whether it be sort of, you know, being a. A teenager wanting to play in the Premier League in international football and achieving it, or, you know, whether it be, you know, looking into blockchain technology at a really sort of early stage and, you know, sort of educating some people on that very early on, or whether it be, you know, bringing a. A very. When I, When I think about it, you know, sort of in conception, it's so random, you know, a turmeric shot, you know, it's like to build a brand or to begin, you know, I still feel like we're just starting, but, you know, to begin to build a brand around a turmeric shot. Turmeric beverage is so, so random. But to have achieved the level of traction that we've achieved to date and seeing the more traction we achieve, the more potential we see is available. So it, you know, it almost makes us work harder or makes, you know, make increases my drive the more we progress. So. So, yeah, so. So my. They were. They. We all knew the power of the product, so we knew the product was good because it had effectively, you know, saved my professional career. But it was about whether or not, you know, every day, you know, the everyday Joe would be interested in a turmeric shop and everything's a risk that you do, you know, it's, you know, life is about taking risks and some, some are calculated so you know, you want to try and make as many calculated, you know, risks which are decisions as possible. And yeah, for us it's, it's one which we're pleased we met, we made because you know, the impact that, you know being able to offer this product to more people is, is a unique experience.

I love that. I want to again go back to something you said earlier which is something that I wish I would hear more from an E commerce owner. You mentioned product market fit and building loyalty and awareness around your product but also understanding if the market needs your product. And from my experience there are a lot of E commerce brands that start a company and they are expecting people to already want the product even if they don't do anything, you know, to, to, to move the, the you know, potential audience to that direction. So can you give me like a few example of what you guys did to understand the market and to achieve product market fit? Because I think this is very valuable. A lot of people don't do this.

Yeah. So the first thing, well the first thing that we did, which unfortunately you know, people brands aren't able to do at this moment in time but hopefully Covid depending or in the UK at least we will be able to at some point is we did trade shows. So we, we went to, you know, seven or eight trade shows over the course of a 12 month period under the previous brand of what we, you know, what we sort of wanted to test the product out under and we just got customer feedback and so we would be sampling at these trade shows, we'd introduce them to, you know, the business, to the product. And each trade show we probably met, you know, I'd probably say minimum 5,000 people. We'd have, you know, we'd have five or six of the team and this is the early days of the business and everyone hated me for doing it but it was something that we needed to do so we, we invested into this and we said no, this is important. So we'd go here. Each person over the course of four days would speak to upwards of 1,000 people the same line. This is a turmeric health shot. This is why now anyone in the team now can express what it is with their eyes closed. And that was the key for us. And the crazy thing is that some of our most loyal customers now will still talk about first seeing us at one of these shows. Whether it was A running show that we did that, you know, there's, in the uk, there's a running show, there's health and wellness, there's balance festivals and all of these shows, which again, we obviously understood what market, you know, who would be our market audience. So we targeted these shows. We didn't go to, you know, just random trade shows. It was, you know, relevant to health, well being, nutrition and so. And yeah, and it's incredible now, as I said, the amount of customers who are our most loyal customers now, who first spotted us at these trade shows. And this is three, four years ago. And so that allowed us to basically capture customer data who we knew were actual potential customers, as opposed to, you know, whether it be a lookalike audience from, you know, you know, someone who's engaged with an ad that you're running, whatever, you know. Well, no, these are actual people who are interested in health and wellness. And so that allowed us to build a base from that and we built a contact list from that, from the participants there. From that contact list, we identified who are individuals of significance. So then we built, you know, as, as we would go to each trade show, we'd then build a list of individuals who we'd want to retarget and try and activate through our brand. So then whether they be influencers, but then they're influencers where you're not engaging with them through direct message, you've actually had a personable conversation with them and they understand the investment that you have within the brand, so they're more likely to take what you're saying seriously. And effectively, from each of those, we built up as well, an audience, a customer base, a community. And by the last one, you know, we were launching, it was effectively around the time we were launching into the Whole Foods and the Planet Organics and we were being listed into the Kixu London Gym, BXR gyms, which are some of the top London gyms. But we had effectively met their nutritionists at some of these shows and the nutritionists then bought into what we were doing. And then it's just, you know, it's a compounding effect and we still, we still have that methodology within the business now. If you, if you continue to do the right things and you make, you know, your, your, if you do the right things on a daily basis, as you achieve those, those tasks, objectives, more opportunities open and are created. And this is what we're experiencing now. You know, we're, we're, we're in the process of, you know, signing official sponsorship partnerships with some of the top clubs, sports teams in Europe. And once these partnerships are signed, it's opening up the door to new partnerships and it's the same concept and you know, and whether it's, you know, we've got some really exciting news about retailers, you know, coming up over the next few months as well. And it's just that growing compounding effect. And, and yeah, so I would say it's the long answer to your question. I would say, you know, you have to. How did we do it? We actually immersed ourselves into our, who would be our community but also our customers and audience as best possible.

And I'm saying also that you're trying to reproduce that with the customers that you have on your direct to consumer website because I always see you post about how much your customers mean to you. So I think come with a healthy type of mentality towards, you know, loyalty and delivering experiences to customers because you had lived this before and I think it's awesome. And I think it's awesome. Yeah.

Thomas, regarding the, regarding the positioning, you, let's say you've like, you've said you've immersed yourself, but you, you had some points of difference. I want you to, to tell us a bit about how difficult it was to ship products which are actually chilled products and how was that decision? Because I can bet that the prices for the delivery pricing was completely different than if you would be, I don't know, delivering tablets of turmeric or powder.

Yeah, no, that's a, that's a really good question. So the points are different. So that was the big thing that we realized in terms of bringing the product to market. It was, you know, how can we communicate these to our customers? And the way that we could communicate them was, you know, by effectively, you know, really owning the fact that it's a chilled, natural, fresh product and as well that it's come out of our own bespoke production facility and as well that it's a unique blend which effectively is our, you know, almost like our trademark secret, which is the blend and the process that we use to extract these. You know, we, we looked into, you know, I did extensive research around white label production and I went to these big manufacturing companies of beverages and juices and I said, you know, can you, could you potentially produce a really bespoke blend? And they would say, what it, what is it? And we would say, you know, obviously you don't give away what the actual specification, but it was, you know, raw turmeric root, you know, fresh pineapple, fresh pineapples fresh watermelons. So you have to buy these watermelons whole, then you have to slice them. Either have technology to slice them or manually slice them. And by the time I've finished, they've already closed the door because no, no, no, they want turmeric powder, you know, shipped from, you know, halfway across the world, you know, pasteurized juice, which means that the juice can remain ambient for up to 12 months. But when that happens, it's, it's lost over 50%, between 50 and 100% of its nutritional value. So you're basically drinking sugar and water and these juices are being, we're giving these juices to our kids. And so our difference was that the quality of the product. And so we realized that although it would mean short term pain in that we would be, our costs would be high, you know, we would be, you know, we may make a loss on shipping a product because if we ship a product and it doesn't get delivered, the redelivery means that we're now paying the customer to drink our shots. But we had to make that decision very early on. And so we effectively researched chilled distribution options. And there were multiple options. And we found that within a denim insulated wrap with a ice pack, the products could remain chilled for up to 72 hours. And again, speaking with various couriers, you know, we found a courier who could, you know, guarantee delivery of, you know, within, you know, 48 hours. But we all obviously wanted it next day. And so we agreed an agreement next day. And you know, when you look at the margins on products and all of a sudden it's like, you know, the cost of goods and then you've got, you know, all of a sudden that, that, that margin for distribution to delivery is, you know, really creeping up. But that was the short term pain because we knew that when we had, when our customers tried the product, you know, the product would do a lot of the heavy lifting for us. And it has done and it's, you know, and to the previous point again, so very early on we realized that the repeat purchase rate was the key because, you know, that the whole lifetime value of the customers is where we could justify, you know, the initial investment in what we would, you know, in how we ship the product, the quality of the product. And so we, you know, we have very early on implemented a really robust subscription model through our products and look to incentivize our customers to participate in the subscription model, whether that be through, you know, receiving a product at a discounted price when purchasing through subscription or whether that be through, you know, faster shipping on subscriptions when we'd be in, you know, overloaded with capacity. And. And, yeah, and that was. That was the model and the methodology which we've gone for. And, you know, we've. We've built a really strong pattern now. You know, we've got a really strong swell of loyal customers and we've got some really exciting opportunities over the next 12 months to really accelerate the.

So. So, Thomas, I have a question regarding the. Not the. Let's say the. The product and the positioning and the points of difference, but how you've. How you've researched the. The. The competition, let's say, and how you've made the positioning. Because you've made the. The. The positioning looks like you've made it consciously. It wasn't a decision to. It was a decision to use the brand to put an equal sign between the company and the product as well.

Yeah. So a lot of thought went into this and it was around communicating the product as quickly as possible to the customer. And what we realized was that within this market, there is so much noise, and within every market there is. But within the, you know, you only have to go into a UK health shop and see the amount of shots which are on the shelf, which all purport, you know, benefits and quality, which. Which, you know, I think fundamentally because of us entering the market, we have helped increase the level of the quality and we've, you know, whether it's alternative options, they've, you know, they've had to increase the quality of what they're offering, but is still, you know, really, really low in terms of, you know, what you would expect to receive from that sort of, you know, that category which, you know, is all around health, natural nutrition. You know, if you pull back the veil, there's not a lot of substance there. And so we wanted to be, you know, a driver for that substance. And we realized that, you know, we could name our. The brand and we could look at, you know, a funky name and, you know, create it as a, you know, have fun with it in terms of, you know, trying to spin it off into, you know, various different other product categories, but we knew that the core of what we were doing was based around turmeric. And so we very rarely. We also realized that, you know, if we can own the turmeric space, we're going to own, in time, a large portion of the natural nutrition space, because turmeric as a functional ingredient is going to be a key player in that. Just because of the clinical studies which are ongoing. And we wanted to deliver it from that natural perspective and begin to sort of clean up this market where, you know, no one goes to. And what we realized as well was that no one goes to, you know, the health shop and buys a turmeric shot to, you know, relinquish their thirst or to refresh themselves. It's not. People don't do that. So, you know, or health shot in general. People are taking health shots for a reason and for purpose. And so we, we realize that. Well, actually, you know, let's own that space. You know, let's own that. Let's incorporate that into our brand and, you know, and champion it. And so we did that through the conceptualization of the brand and you know, the ringed logo, which, you know, is very much around, you know, earth and the core, you know, and the essence of, you know, basically mother nature. And, you know, we put the turmeric company on top of it and fortunately enough we were lucky enough to get the trademark and we own some really strong domains around it too.

I love it. I love it and I think it's awesome. And I think the fact that you're thinking about category design and championing categories, I think that's the way to go. And I think it's a very big gap in the E commerce market in general because people are thinking in terms of short term wins rather than playing the long term game. And which, which prompts me to, to ask you one question. Given how much this industry has changed, you know, due to Covid and, you know, the whole digital transformation of the industry, what is one thing right now that keeps you up at night? What is something you're struggling with at the moment?

Yeah, I think we, you know, everything is, there's always, there's always something which you can improve. You know, there's always something which you can do better. So, so what, what's probably, you know, what keeps me up at night is probably actually just saying, you know, we're doing okay. You know, I think I probably need to do that more often and say, well, actually, you know, we're doing okay. You know, we've done, you know, better. Okay. Better than okay, but I think, yeah, so. But in terms of, you know, what keep, what could keep you up at night? You know, in the E commerce space, you know, multiple things, you know, there's, there's, there's so many variables at play. And you know, actually it was really interesting because, you know, whether it's through, you know, I was speaking with some individuals a couple of months ago and they were talking about they're very much in the private equity, you know, investment space. And you know, they were talking to me around, you know, having invested in a few different brands and businesses and they were of the. But they, they're very much sort of bricks and mortar. They like safe investments. And so we were talking. I began talking a bit about, you know, my company and we spoke, you know, a little bit and gave some details. And they actually were looking at the E Comm space in, in a negative way and that there were so many variables which could actually then create risk. And so for them, they wouldn't value a specific business in a certain way. And I, and I was just like, you know, that, that's, that's fine. You know, they're older and they're, you know, they're safe with what they do, which is completely, you know, perfectly fine. But it just, I think that the gap which they're probably missing is the, you know, the phenomenal opportunity in terms of scalability with online. And I think that's really the exciting aspect with it. You know, if you can scale your product and you know, whether it's, you know, penetrating into new markets, penetrating, you know, through product variations which, you know, are still core to the, to the values of the brand, then I think actually, you know, the value there in my opinion is. Makes it multiple fold as opposed to, you know, having a listing in say, for example, Sainsbury's or Marks and Spencer's. I don't know if you know these companies. Yeah, so they would say, well, if you had, you know, if you had that sort of rate of sale through Sainsbury's or through M S, then it would be secure and we would, you know, and then the value of that for us is higher. But then I would say, well, actually, no, the value for me is higher being able to deliver directly to my consumer because, you know, I know them, I'm building a relationship with them and I can actually scale through these, through these people as opposed to having to scale through, you know, a retailer, a third party to then grow a brand. So, yeah, so, so, yeah, so what, what keeps me up at night? Yeah, so I think there's lots, you know, supply chain, you know, fulfillment chain, you know, everything. But it's part and parcel of the journey. I don't think it's, you know, I think we're, we're all very fortunate.

So, yeah, I like what you said about, let's talk a bit about this thing with the brick and mortars and the direct to consumer. I think this is a very cool topic because. So let me ask European. This is me with my crazy curiosities right now. I see that a lot of people that are selling are used to sell, you know, in stores and retail and whatever. When they approach online, they approach it, as you said, with super, you know, you know, a lot of caution. Right. They are afraid of everything. So they take like the most calculated small risks. And I wanted to. Because you have, you know, this contact with them, maybe you can explain to me why is this fear of online? And I feel like a lot of people. Barry is asking you, but your best food of football player that you played against. Wait a second, Barry. I'm getting to that part too. No, but real, this is a real question. Why do you think there's this status quo when it comes to online selling? Because I think a lot of people that go from brick and mortars, they create a store, they hire people for the job, but they don't let them do anything and they don't let them to do, you know, to do absolutely nothing to grow. And they're just, you know, blaming it on, I don't know, they're charging into the game. So why do you think there's the status quo? Why is it, why is this fear if you know people like this?

It's a completely different mentality, Completely different. The perception of how to sell a product is completely different. So retail, with retail, you don't say, for example, your brand and your objective is to get into retail. You don't really care too much about your consumer, as crazy as that sounds. What you care about is the relationship you have with the retailer. So if you have a strong relationship with the retailer, then they can give you prime position in store, which we all know around. You know, whether it's, you know, subliminal messaging, you know, the consumer behaviors, consumer patterns of where things are located in store. You can naturally, you can gain an. A natural rate of sale just by being present in retail. So that means you haven't done any form of research around or insights into your customer. You have just won a listing with a retailer and now you're present. And again, there's a lot of research and data which says just simply about the fact that it's on shelf or there's convenience to it, it will sell regardless of what it is. And so that mentality is more of a contract mentality. So it's like, I'm gonna, We're trying to win this contract from this retailer and when we win it, we've sort of, you know, we're in retail and we're sort of, you know, good. We can sort of see the numbers. Whereas direct consumer is a massive shift from that because actually it's. I need to give the consumer all of the value. I need to be giving them complete everything. I need to give them the experience on the site. I need to give them the experience with post checkout so they are communicated in the right way prior to their order even being dispatched. I need to give them the experience of when the order is through fulfillment and with the courier so they're being kept up to date. I need them to give. I need to give them the experience of when they first touch the product, open the product, taste the product. I need to then give them the experience of following up with them to make sure that they had good customer satisfaction. They were pleased with it, but then I didn't need to follow up with, how did they, what was, what was their experience with it? Did they have any feedback? And then we want to follow up with, well, after that, what would you be, you know, would you promote our product? Would you be, you know, would you recommend our product to others? And, you know, are you going to be a regular use of the product? So from a brand's perspective, you're giving so much more. You have to give so much more through that customer journey and experience by selling online. And this is why retailers, brands who sell into retail first and come to online are completely lost because they don't grasp the concept. And even if they heard me say that now, they still wouldn't know what it actually means to implement that as a, as a, as a base level of service for your brand. And that is the only way to, you know, to deliver an experience which is going to, you know, ultimately drive a level of growth through, you know, the experience that you have with the band.

It's true.

So who's the best footballer that you've played against?

Best footballer I've played against, I would probably say I've played against quite a few. I would have to say for, for football, I would say Luka Modric. So former Real Madrid played against him when, when, when he was at Tottenham. He was just a very special player, but for sort of global status, I would probably say, you know, it was Cristiano Ronaldo. He was, he was very good and he, we played against him in the semi final of the European Championship. So, yeah, he was, he was the best one.

Valentin, since you Kindly introd me to this part about football. So I have a lot of questions. What. First of all, I don't know what's happening this season. I gave up on this season mostly because I'm a Liverpool fan and I. After 68, you know, undefeated, we were undefeatable for four years. Now we're losing everything. And it breaks my heart to say that, but I'm happy, you know, there are people that are doing worse than us.

Yeah, true.

So I want to. I want to ask you first, just because I want to ease into this topic, are your colleagues from West Brom using your product? And what are they saying about it?

Yeah, they use it religiously. We actually supply into all of the teams throughout the uk. The majority of the Premier League teams now, you know, sort of purchase our product. Rugby. Athletics. Yeah, it's really good. So in terms of sport, we are. We're seeding nicely into, you know, habit forming and educating, you know, people who really, it should matter most because that's their job in terms of their health. So athletes, you know, we're educating them extremely well around the benefits of consuming, you know, our range on a regular basis.

So, yeah, you should probably send some to Jurgen Klopp because I think he needs them right now. I wanna, I wanna ask you, what do you think about, you know, the relegation battles? Are you gonna, you know, are you gonna win against Sheffield United? What's gonna happen there?

Yeah, yeah, it's. It's part and parcel of football. It's all part of the journey. And I think, you know, we're dedicated to it. We're. We're training extremely hard. You know, the managers come in and, you know, he's. He's got his own style and, you know, he's given us that belief. It's been unfortunate the last few games. I think we. We could have won a few of the games that we drew and the one that we lost, we, you know, we probably should have drawn. And if we had won those, we'd probably be, you know, sort of level of points, you know, in terms of that relegation battle. But I think, you know. Right, yeah, precisely. Yeah. So they scored late on and we had a goal disallowed in the, you know, last minute. And I think, as I said, we'll give ourselves, you know, the best opportunity possible. And, you know, stranger things have happened in the world and, you know, we're committed to, you know, to fighting and saving the season from relegation, which would be amazing.

So. Valentin. Sorry. So as a football, As a football player, I played sports, so I played basketball. And as a football player, you need discipline, right? You cannot do without discipline. So what would you think, do you think when your career as an entrepreneur, as an E commerce founder, what are some things that you took from your, you're taking from your football career that you apply to being, you know, an entrepreneur in the E commerce world? And, you know, it helps you, I guess, deal with everything that you have to deal with.

Yeah, it's a good question. I think the biggest one is firstly around the team. So I'd say that the team is everything and that's something which I learned in football. If you have a team who can stick together, who is committed, you know, to the business as the, you know, as the leading individual and you have a good team spirit, it counts, it carries lots of weight, and whether it's your productivity or output, it can go through the roof. And so the first key aspect is team. And I think that is something which I've transferred into the business and something which is really core to me. And if I notice things within the team or, you know, team members unhappy or, you know, issues arising, then, you know, I take note and I take it very seriously. So, so that's, that's a big one from football. As you said. It's. You have to be dedicated. It's harder to become a professional footballer in the English leagues than it is to get into Oxford or Cambridge University. So, you know, whether it's that two, 2,000 individuals, you think, you know, every year, the amount of young boys and young girls who want to become professional footballers when they're kids, the very few who make it, you know, whether it's 2000 at any given time playing professionally in the UK. So that comes from, you know, having a level of self discipline and also a level of self belief. And I think those two aspects is something which I took into, you know, into entrepreneurship and into the business. You know, believing in what we're doing, believing in the journey, believing that, you know, we're here for a bigger cause, that's very powerful. And it gives you, you know, gives you energy and it gives you a level of power which, you know, helps you overcome challenges. And then the discipline, you know, being able to show that level of discipline to, you know, have. Whether it's an immaculate level of detail, you know, whether it's making sure no turn is unseen, stone is unturned, and being able to really sort of drive the business forward, you know, in a consistent pattern. I think if you, if you can apply those two together and support that with the team. You can begin to, you know, develop a formula for a level of success.

Love that. That's amazing.

Thomas, regarding how you're, how you're running your, your E Commerce, which are your most important, let's say, metrics that you're, that you're looking at every, let's say, month or week and what do you suggest to other E commerce entrepreneurs to, to, to follow, let's say, to track.

Yeah, I think the big ones which, you know, which we've always, which initially were very hard to track as sort of a young business was you know, the lifetime value of your customer and you know, pegging that over a cost of acquisition, but a true cost of acquisition, you know, so actually embedding it into all of the marketing spend which you're putting in, you know, not just the ad spend, if you're running ads, you know, or the commercial spend which you're using to drive traffic or have events or whatever it is. So that's, that, that's a really key one for me. And then, you know, I think from our perspective we've always wanted to, you know, drive the AOV up. So you know, understanding, you know, from a convert, from a strong conversion rate, you know, looking to drive the aov and I think these sort of, all of the metrics obviously are always intertwined and they support or you know, offset with one another to a degree. And if you can, if you can have a consistent improvement on each of these areas, then fundamentally you're going to see a level of growth. But the big one for us is certainly having that true cost of acquisition, true lifetime value and then attaching that to understanding from an acquisition perspective, AOB and conversion rate as well as cac. So yeah, so those are the sort of main metrics. But there's, it's fascinating because there's so many other models now. So there's, there's an interesting model which is like a cm, so like a cash multiplier. So it's, people will, you know, say, for example, it's lifetime value and you do lifetime value over cac. Well, actually what your cash multiplier does is it brings down your lifetime value to say a 60 day period. So within that 60 day period you would then say take out the margin of the product. So you're actually getting a true reflection of cash in hand, then having a true cost of acquisition and then through that cash multiplier you can see actually what cash flow is coming into the business. So then that allows you to, you know, from a management perspective, actually look at your cash flow and see how your cash flow is actually being affected month on month. And if your cash flow is good and healthy, then actually it's a sign to, you know, begin to potentially scale what you're doing because you're doing the right things. So. But yeah, it's, we're always learning, I'm always learning and I, I want to, you know, take on board as much as possible to offer me, you know, continual support.

I love the cash multiplier. It also gives you like a time frame to have, you know, to see what you're working with, to build in that period of time the chance to get people to buy again. So I love the cash multiplier. Methodology is awesome. We have a question here from actually. Oh, I know Nelson. Okay. He's one of my friends. So we have a question from Nelson Brandao Fillo. I hope I said his name right. Of course. Course not. Probably he's asking you, is Brexit affecting your E Commerce operation somehow? What is your perception regarding Brexit under an E Commerce perspective?

Yeah, Brexit has been really tough. Not for us, thankfully, at this stage because our main market was the uk but if we were distributing at this moment in time into Europe, we would have, it would have been a disaster. And one of my friends, he, he, he, he, he owns a, a CBD company and they were distributing because obviously it's ambient, you know, small, small weighted goods, easy to distribute. Wherever they were distributing, I think they had 80 of their market was between Germany and Spain and then 20 was UK and they got hit really, really hard because what was happening was that when the, they were still able to ship, but when it was arriving into the European destination, the customer was receiving a customs charge. So the customer was, it was, you know, whether it was dpd, dhl, whoever it was, they would say, hey customer, you, you've spent 80 pounds on this order, now spend another 22 pounds to actually get it delivered. And that, you know, depleted very quickly that their European customer base. So we're fortunate in that we. The regulations, you know, I'd be here for a few hours if I sort of translated the meetings that I've sat in around, you know, how we successfully distribute into Europe. But effectively there's a rule of origin which will, would allow a product such as ours to be distributed into Europe with a zero customs charge. So we're currently in the process of, you know, of doing the work for that. And then once we do, then, yeah, we're looking, you know, we'll be looking very seriously later in the year about distributing direct consumer through international markets. But I think, yeah, it's been, it's been very difficult even on goods coming in. So we, some of the good goods and the items within our supply chain we, we receive from Europe and we've had either it's a levy on them or there's been a delay at customs because the clearance is just, you know, they've just got a backlog. So it's been for brands and for businesses, it's been very, very tough.

Yeah. Thomas, regarding your, your future plans. So what's, what's exciting for, for you? What do you have on your plate and you can share with us as well?

Yeah, so lots of exciting things, I think. Exciting relationships growing throughout the brand. You know, we're. We're continuing to work with some, you know, more and more great people who are, you know, going to help continue to drive our growth. We've got some exciting, really exciting partnerships lined up which will, you know, build the awareness of the brand and the product and actually turmeric as an ingredient. Because when you look at the, you know, the market, the market awareness of what we're doing is fractional. So to be doing, you know, the rate of sale which we're doing at this moment in time is, you know, from my perspective, phenomenal. Because when we get the market awareness up to that, you know, and then we get the serviceable market, you know, increased as well, it's going to be a very, very exciting time because all of those people are going to be experiencing the impact of and the benefit of a range such as ours. So, you know, the amplification, the increase in awareness of the brand. So through all of the work that the team is doing consistently, I'm very, very excited around that. And then we also have a lot of new product development in the pipeline, some really interesting products which are products which we've taken learnings from, whether it be customers, sports teams, athletes, the everyday individual surveys that we've taken it all in and we're really excited to launch some really exciting new shots which will supplement our existing range and again, help to build the awareness of the brand. So all of those are really exciting. You know, I get excited around, you know, efficiencies in our supply chain. So, you know, I'm not, I'm not one to. Yeah, but good.

Juliana, you're on mute.

Great television. So my last question for you is, who is going to win this season? Obviously who, who Do.

Who would you bet on in the Premier League? Yeah, I think, I think Manchester City just have the quality and the, the gap at this moment in time. I think they will win the league. But I am hopeful Liverpool will come back stronger. They've been very unfortunate with injuries this year. You know, Virgil van Dijk, Joe Gomez, you know, these are massive players for them and it shows how big they were because this time last season they were, you know, they were, they were flying and so far ahead. And I think I'm, I'm hopeful that, you know, that they'll come back stronger next year. But, but yeah, it's tough. Football's, football's. Football is a, a ruthless game and it's, People don't understand what you mean when you say that because you have to be actually in it to see it. You know, it's, it's a very competitive industry, but one which you can learn a lot from and actually enjoy and you know, you know, flourish in. And it's a phenomenal experience and I'm very, you know, very fortunate to have had the career and still be having the career that I'm having and you know, I'll continue to work hard to keep it going.

I think you're doing an amazing job and I want to congratulate you for the mentality that you have that's very customer centric. We don't have, have that enough. I wish people that listen today or will listen tomorrow everywhere will see, you know, and understand how much it matters. The product market fit, the loyalty, building awareness, building relationships with your customers. Because I took a lot of notes here, you know, focusing on your team, being disciplined and consistent and you will, and you will make it. And thank you so much for coming today. This was an amazing episode and I hope you meet Crystal palace on Saturday.

Thank you very much. Yeah, it'd be good, nice to get some goals. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you.

Thank you. Well, thank you everyone for watching today. Thank you for the questions, Barry and Brendan and yeah, I'll see you guys next week. Thank you, Valentin, for being the referee again.

Thanks. Thanks everyone. And thank you Thomas, for, for being with us and looking forward for more people to, to understand the, the impact of, of turmeric and of having a balanced diet in, in their lives.

Yeah, no, well, thank you very much. Thank you, Andrea. Thank you, Valentin. It's been a fantastic, you know, talk with you both and yeah, I've watched quite a few of your interviews and love what you guys are doing and you know, more and more people should, should listen to, to what you guys have to say because it is extremely insightful and can help, you know, businesses. And, you know, whether it's our business or other businesses, there's, there's a lot of value which you offer. And it's great that you guys are doing this. So, you know, keep it up.

Thank you. Thank you so much. And yeah, let's, let's see, you know, let's see you guys win year over year and, you know, let's go. Thank you. Thank you everyone for watching this podcast was brought to you by Vitex. Vitex is the first and only fully integrated e commerce marketplace and OMS solution that offers fastest time to revenue and no upgrades ever. So go ahead, check them out. Vtex.com.