Hole in one ecommerce. The Tyler Sullivan story.

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Welcome to E Commerce Growth Stories. This is your hostess with the mostest, Juliana Jackson, aka the CLV lady. And also I am the Chief Evangelist for OmniConvert.

And this is Valentin Radu, CEO of OmniConvert. Thank you for tuning in today for a new episode of E Commerce Growth Stories.

Do you like snooping around? I know I do. I don't know. Did you ever wonder what Sony uses to power their E commerce business? Or Coca Cola or Motorola or other big names in E commerce and retail? Well, today the secret is gonna be revealed and I am talking about Vitex. Vitex is the first and only fully integrated commerce marketplace and OMS solution that offers fastest time to revenue and no upgrades like ever. So if you're an E Commerce brand and you're looking to find a software that can really become a powerhouse to your business, providing you the best go to market speed, flexibility, daily updates and reports, and overall platform stability and agility, you really have to check these guys out. So make sure you go to visit vtex.com that's vtex.com today and give that ecommerce business the boost here with Tyler Sullivan, the founder of Bondtech. And I'm here with the special host tonight filling in for Valentin. I'm with Johnny Vanko. So we're here to interview Tyler tonight and find out more about his story of how he's mixing being an agency owner and an entrepreneur and an E Commerce founder. So first thing is first, Tyler. This is the question that I ask everyone. How did you get into E Commerce?

Total accident. I'm an accidental entrepreneur through and through. There was no expectation to start a golf company I was competing in. It's like the home run derby of golf called World Long Drive. And so I was trying to hit the golf ball as far as I could. I became obsessed and I started breaking golf clubs and it wasn't from my pure power, which I wish it was. And I just started tinkering and assembling golf clubs because it was fun. And then I got to a point where I had like 40 different golf driver configurations in my bag and one of my buddies is like, what is that? I was like, I just made it. He's like, can you make me a golf club? I was like, sure. So he's like, how much? I'm like, I don't even know what to charge you. So I like sold him one of my clubs and I made from there. I really just made the world's worst website you've ever seen. It had like cartoon characters on was a joke. But my first epiphany happened probably. It was probably eight, nine months. And then I was on a boat, not a yacht. And I got an email. And that email changed my life. It was my first sale ever. And it was the epiphany that was the first moment where I was like, I just want to do more of this. Because I was on a boat, I wasn't working in front of my computer, and I made money. I was like, that's cool. The next like six months was a struggle. You know, I just started documenting my journey on Facebook and, and this is a long story, but it's kind of crazy. So I started documenting. I sold a couple more clubs, and then I was talking to a frat brother of mine over the phone, like, hey, I sold a couple clubs online. I want to make my own brand. He's like, well, you're not that smart. And I was like, you're not. You're not wrong. So he's like, why don't you call up uvm, our local college where I barely graduated, took me five years. And I called him up and I worked with a group of students for a year and we designed a dual cavity driver and cashed in my 401k and had it made. And this is not a bomb morning, just a siren that goes off at noon here. And I had the golf club made and it was amazing. And what I did is just as I was making it, designing it, I just started documenting that this is early days 2012 on Facebook and I only had like 2000 followers on Facebook, maybe 800 I think, when I actually launched and they just enjoyed the story and I asked questions throughout my process to my 800 followers and I really just engaged with them. And that when I launched, I launched on a pre order because I had no money, I had no product made. I had or I had like 50 units made, and I think I sold $10,000 that day. And that was my second epiphany. I was like, holy shit, let's do more of this. And then. So that's like phase one of how I kind of got there. And then I can go more depth. But that's kind of how it kind of started. And I side hustled it till. Until a big. My next big epiphany happened. But if you have any questions, I can pause there if you want.

Yeah, it'd be funny.

I've got lots building out in the open. Do you think? I mean, this is a new thing with a Lot of developers moving to build their products out in the open. And you took that approach with E Comm, which I think is really cool. Having that pre made community is kind of very crucial for brands these days that are starting up. If you were doing stuff over again today, how much emphasis would you put on the community, the element like today, if you're starting up, you know, it's.

It'S such a different time, you know, like what I did in 2012 probably isn't relevant until today. I mean, all I know is what, what happened in that journey. I do believe your personal founder story and reason is, is probably one of the most important things. And I did it out of necessity, right? So I just started telling my story, documenting myself hitting balls and people got attached to me as a, obviously the product and the brand, but me as a person, as like a regular guy, as a golfer they could relate to. And that was by accident. So I had like no intentions to do that. So like, yeah, if I were to start up now, I'm actually helping my wife start her company. I'm telling her to do the same thing. You know, just don't be afraid to go in front of camera. Not that I'm on camera a lot now, but just like ask questions. That's a big thesis. It's just as you do things, don't assume you know anything, let your audience tell you what they want and that's how you build the product. And that's kind of. I try to just use that strategy in the places that's most valuable for us, which is Facebook, our Facebook group, our Facebook page is not what it once was. It's still valuable. And then email, Email and SMS is like the only asset we really own. So you take that same approach to engage on email and like one example, to dive a little deeper, like when it still was really, really early, I made a video. When Facebook video first came out. So video was new, right? So it was timing too. So a lot of this stuff is like, yeah, you could do it now, but it's probably not gonna have the same impact. I made a video in my backyard where I hit a ball into a net and a, a hole. I exploded with a hole. Like you go, the ball goes through whatever and it sounds like a grenade goes up. And I go, does your driver sound like this? And I boosted it for 300 bucks and that video got 300,000 views, 10,000 comments, and I literally commented every comment on my BlackBerry until my thumbs were bleeding. And I didn't see like direct Sales from, like, the engagement. But I just was so in shock that people were engaging and commenting that I just felt like they deserved a reply. It's just that simple. I had no. Like, everything I did was. It's kind of. I was aloof and just doing. Because it was getting an engagement. It wasn't to, like, make money. And I think that was. My ignorance is bliss. Evolution was like, I just did it because I loved it and had no expectations of it doing anything.

You know, I mean, I think you're onto something. We were talking the other day, Juliana and I, about how, or someone else maybe, about how every e comm company today needs to look at themselves as being a media company and providing content that people enjoy. And that because there's so much competition in a lot of different spaces, unless you have a competitive advantage, you're fighting over attention with everyone else. And whatever you can do to stay top of mind and kind of relevant within a space tends to give companies the upper hand. I mean, examples like Huckberry comes to mind. There's a lot of places you can buy the goods that they sell, but the story that they weave into it is a lot more detailed than what other platforms kind of provide. And you see how Red Bull's done this with their own media division, where Red Bull isn't necessarily about the drink anymore, but about action sports. They've, like, really made that transition happen.

Totally. Yeah. I mean, for me, it's like, content is great if it's quality content that engages. Like, that's how I do it. I'm not. Because one of my worst years, we tried to become a content company, media company, and we just put out content, like, at a crazy pace. So I believe in content and engagement on those platforms, but also in where we drive revenue, which is email. So, like, we ask a lot of questions in email that you're like, why'd you ask that? But it's like, we want to actually know the answer. We get engagement there, and that drives revenue. So I'm. I'm kind of split on that. Like, it's like, founder story, yes. Content, yes. But it's. You can't just make content to make content. It's got to be with purpose and in channels that drive revenue. So for me, I think of it as like. Like, if we only post on Facebook once a week, right now we do have a Facebook group which is just owners, which is all active in a higher asset. So it's. It is different. Like, content is good, but it has to be certain channels and there's ways to do it. So I like to do most of it in my storytelling, you know, in, in some post purchase stuff. We do like do thank you voicemails, thank you cards, personal videos for every order. So there's stuff like that we do on lifetime value. But yeah, so I, it's. And it always changes, you know what I mean? So the story is.

Yeah, Tyler, so you said email, right? And you, you know, I, I'm a big fan of email. But like you see that majority of brands are investing money into sales and ads and they are overlooking the email part and they're saying, you know, email marketing doesn't work, but they're sending the same message to everyone and of course it doesn't work. Right. So was it that epiphany with the email you got that day that drove you through email or how did you got into, you know, because Tyler has his own agency, email marketing agency called Ecom Growers. And tell us how you, you know, you went on that, on that alley and moved away from the ads that me and John hate.

Yeah, we still run ads. I wish I could say, hey, we're ad free, but I mean we run a ton. So it's just email is just so essential. And I don't know how I'm actually shocked every day that people think email is not effective. It's just what they're doing with it, you know what I mean? Like email still, if someone were to buy my company, they're buying my assets, which is my email list and my customer list, you know what I mean? So it's like that is my true value. So my goal is to keep that list as healthy and viable and vibrant as possible. And like that's part's exciting for me because like when we get to launch a new product and we can send hype emails, get people engaged and follow up and you know, you can do days where you do over $100,000 in a day. Yeah, you can do that with, with ads. But it's gonna be. Your return's gonna diminish. You know what I mean? So like email is really the backbone of any e comm brand. You do need traffic though. So it is, it's a yin and yang. You need both. And email just makes ads work better and it allows you to profit more. And that's really the end of the name of the game. And I try to think of it in this way as like, if Facebook ads died tomorrow or if I got banned from Google SEO, would I survive and sell my $3 million of inventory I just paid for in stock. Yes. Because I can email them, I can sms, you know, text them. Whereas if that wasn't the case, I'd be much more fearful because I'd be only relying on paid traffic, you know what I mean? So it's, for me, it was freeing my, my mind, I guess, in terms of how I think of it, you.

Know, what's the right blend, do you think? I mean, you said you run a lot of ads and a ton of ads, like what's the right blend between organic traffic and paid traffic? And you know, which one converts better for you in terms of like email collection and getting them into that system?

I think every brand is different. I kind of just use, I'm really basic. I look at stuff with like, not very technical anymore or micro. I look at a really high level. I'm just like, what's our return ad spend? How hard can we push? If we, if we hit that number, cool. If we're not hitting that number, why, you know, and then for like SEO, I look at that as a long term play. I do have an SEO company I use, I just pay them what I think is a reasonable amount. And I again, I don't look at that as like I need a certain ROI from that which a lot of people like, dude, you're nuts. But I'm more looking at it as a holistic approach and I know like my total revenue, my total expenses and for the most part I'm pretty fixed in my or variable my cost. So it's not like I have a lot of overhead only to employees. So I can spend on things that may not have a high roi. But for to answer your question, like my mix is at least the things I look at is return on ad spend is what's my number there? And then what's my percent of revenue from email? And depending on what I'm doing, those will change. But I have baseline metrics I always want to hit. So last year we did like 7 million and of that 41% of revenue is from email. This year we're launching very few products. Last year we launched more. So this year we're probably going to be 30 to 35%, maybe a little less. But next year we're launching potentially if we get a product line done, if we launch a new version, that's gonna be a higher email revenue. Right? But I look at it just like in terms of scale, like how hard can I push if I hit my metrics? And that just is really my indicator. And we just keep using those variable numbers to spend. And I don't look at it like super technical. It's just like high level, like making money.

Well, you just said something really interesting, which was product launches drove revenue. Um, so in the golf industry, obviously everyone's coming out with new products every year, whether or not they're actually better than the last five years, you know, that's questionable. But in terms of customer psychology and the newest best thing that's going to hit the ball farther, be more accurate, be more forgiving, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. How important are product launches to you guys? Hitting your revenue numbers on a yearly basis or every couple years?

You know, I mean, if it's a launch year, we know it's going to be a bigger year. You know, it's. We tend to. Our approach is probably very different than many with launches. I've got a really interesting angle. I think it's just. Personally, I only believe in launching new products if they're better. So we don't launch products a lot, which probably hurts our revenue. But like our current 3.0 line, I think we're on year three and it took. We're only in version three and nine years. And it. I like. My real job is I'm a golf club tester. Like, I'm a volunteer. I call myself the volunteer tester. Where I go and I try like a million different variations of weights here, shaft stiffness here, weight. Just different designs. I've made like you already. You don't know how many different driver heads I made that didn't make it. You know what I mean? And so I kind of believe that if it's better, we'll launch it. And I think, or I would hope our audience believes that too. So when that launch comes out, it's like really exciting. Not to say though, like, with our wedges, we've got different colors because it's fun. They're not necessarily like, better, but they are different and unique. And this year in particular, golf and E commerce is trending, which has been trending down for 25 years. So people are. I would have never been smart to get into golf. I never intended to get into golf, which is something I love. So we happen to be riding a trend for the first time ever. So we have so many new golfers in the ecosystem, which is making our life so much easier. And last year in particular, we sold out so many times with COVID and I never saw that coming. So this year it's like we're riding the wave, man. We're pressing hard and we hope to do like 12 + mill this year and kind of, you know, it's a, it's a cash flow game too because I'm making our own products. So it's, it's a different battle, you know.

No, it's funny because the industry has changed. I know that statistically tee times are up over 25% year to year and you have a bunch of new golfers entering that have never played before. There's a lot of brands that are targeting kind of the new non stuffy version of golf and making it more accessible. And Covid really drove that forward. I know personally there's a ton of females in my friend group that would have never touched a club, but they all picked up clubs in the last year. So it's interesting to see how. I mean, timing is a lot of success in E comm and when people have like a great idea and they're able to launch it and kind of push through. Like you mentioned, the first couple years were rough in terms of figuring out like how are you going to get everything up and make the money and then keep it flowing and grab that initial audience. So people today starting should be trend chasing. I mean, things have changed a lot since 2012 in terms of supply chain and being able to pick up stuff easily from China and stuff like that. Where do you see the real advantages standing out for brands either getting started today or you know, have a couple years in and competition's changed and supply chain has changed and you know, how, how. I guess the real question is how important is that owned asset moving forward and how much is it worth to take a loss on that owned asset getting started today so that you can have longevity to ride out those times in a profitability later?

Yeah, I mean, so trend chasing is something I never believe in. Like do something you enjoy or you're going to feel like you're working every day. You know, that was my big thing. It's like I just did it because I loved it, you know, and it was did not feel like work. I could never imagine trying to do something that I'm not passionate about. And just because it's a trend, you know, like that just makes zero sense to me if you're in my. Everything I've always seen is once you've heard a trend, it's already too late. Like, you know what I mean? Like go, go manufacture golf clubs right now. Lead times are 10 months, you know what I mean? And like golf specifically is probably one of the hardest industries in the world because the brands are billion dollar brands and that's a whole different story and discussion. But so I really just believe in doing what you enjoy number one and then asset wise, I mean start collecting assets. Whether it's email. Email I think is the core SMS because you never own those channels. I mean in 2016 our Facebook page had, I don't know what it was, 80,000 people or something or 100,000 and we could reach them, right. And then they had the algorithm change where pages had, you know, were pretty much his pay to play or to something to that effect where it was just the organic reach was reduced so much and that hurt. So I, that was my aha moment there of like we need to have an asset we own that is not social because like we were doing a ton of revenue from just social posting. I could post like hey, product coming back in stock and it would crush. If I post a back in stock with a link right now, I'll get one like and no buy. So it's email still is that core. And like it's interesting that people wouldn't think emails effective or your asset. I think it's just a change in strategy and thinking and it's email is really simple. Like just be native to the platform and don't make overly designed newsletters with 70 calls, actions with 50 different stories. Like we like our thesis at the agency as we do like one call to action. A lot of plain text emails. We keep it fun, we keep it short and they're simple emails that get opens and get replies and that allows us to have an asset that you can have for a long time if you have that future. What's the word? Foresight, I guess.

What's your take on SMS marketing though?

On what?

What's your take on SMS marketing though?

Yeah, so almost every client and myself as an E comm brand uses SMS now. I think it's the same thing as email. It's like super effective but you have to know how to use it right. So like right now with sms and again I'm not in the weeds sending the stuff, the team does that. So I'm not like super technical anymore but at a high level. You know, SMS is more. What's the word? Intimate, if you would. So it's something where we would never blast like we could in email with sms. Not that we blast. We're pretty tactful and technical with email too. But SMS now we use it definitely less than email, but we still try to make it Engaging and use it when we can. Because I tell you what, it's pretty amazing when you send an SMS blast and you see the traffic go from what you're doing that day to crazy spikes and it's definitely, I don't say, I don't know if it's definitely not a replacement of email, but it's a really great add on, you know what I mean? So we always do email first and SMS is just like the cherry on top.

So do you get any, do you get the same return from SMS as you do from email? Or is it.

We do not. I think if I were to look at the numbers, I think email still like 70 to 80% of like sent messages and then SMS is that other, other percent. And again the attribution, who knows how great those are. But email still is still king and well, in my opinion will always be. But we're also not like, not open to new things. You know, there's just so many tactics and strategies that people talk about, hear about. You can go down that rabbit hole. And I've done that where I went down like the click funnels rabbit hole, this rabbit and just like tested everything that didn't matter. So now it's like the core stuff like make a good product, care about your customers, send emails that engage and use SMS to amplify those messages. And I just think of it such a simple, simple way because I've tried all that shit over nine years, you know, and I don't, I don't know, I try not to overthink it, but yeah, it's definitely, if you're not doing sms, it's definitely worth doing.

So how much did E commerce change in the last nine years? Because our audience, it's a lot of E commerce entrepreneurs that just started their business in Covid and a lot of them are, you know, every time we have one of these episodes they're asking me, you know, how, what's, what's changed, you know, like what are the basics that they should be focused on? Because as you said very correctly, and this is a conversation I have with John almost every day, it's a shitload of bad advice out there. Yes, it's pouring bad advice. It's so many cheap tricks and you know, growth hacks and I've been laughing at them for some time. But you know, like when you're new to E commerce, you tend to want to try them all because you just want to, you know, not, you don't want to lose. So you're playing, you're not playing to win, you're playing not to lose. So if you, you know, like you have seen all the facets because it's changed a lot since, you know, 2011 and so on. But what would you tell people that are here today in regards to what they should be doing based on your experience?

Yeah, it has changed a lot. I mean the core things have never changed. Make a great product, have solid offers and have an amazing customer service experience like that. Everyone says they've got great customer service, but no one does. We spend more in customer service than I guarantee anyone does. To have an experience that really no one can compete with. And that's how you get real lifetime value. And we did that. And I did that because that's just what I want as a customer, you know what I mean? And like how you get your product and offer out there has changed, but really it's like pretty basic. It's like you need traffic, which is Facebook, Google, Instagram, ads, you can do influencers, other tactics, TikTok, whatever. You need traffic, then you need a back end, you know, back end system which is email. And really other than that, it's just making great products and asking questions and engaging and making good content. It's like really not that complicated. And I see just so much confusion with like the tactics. It's like tactical, strict tactic, tactical hell and strategic hell of just testing shit, doing this. So like my business I've set up that I've outsourced all the pillars that are important to the business and I've outsourced them feel better than myself. So I have a Facebook, Instagram, Google Ads guy who crushes it. I've got my email and SMS agency that I just happen to own. I have a CRO guy who doesn't do tweaks on design. He does messaging tweaks, who kills it. SEO guy who makes the blog post that we've got like an optimized blog, whatever makes a blog post does SEO. Then I've got a 3 PL that does the shipping and customer service guys. That's the only people I have in house is customer service service. It's only two of them. And their only job is to wow customers at any cost. And really that's. I'm trying to think I'm probably missing something, but that's really it. And that allows me to be all variable in terms of cost and very little overhead and then really have the core things or core processes with experts in each silo. And if something new comes up, like I just Talked to someone at a PR company that seem, seem like something worth trying, I typically will try to vet them in some way. So if it's something like if it's an ad guy or someone says like, hey, I've got this concept I want to try, I'll do your TikTok ads. I'll just say, okay, let's do a one hour screen share and I'll pay you for your time and if you guys teach me something or teach my team something, great, and then we'll hire you. If you teach me nothing, great. I didn't waste an engagement. All this time and effort with you and really that's been my way forward is like if I think it's really a new channel, new opportunity or something I'm not doing now, I'll vet them with a one hour test and if they can like beat me or show me something, I don't know, you're hired, done, and move on to the next. So that's kind of how I approach business. But it's like if you do those core things well, you're good. But like as a founder, focus on the product, the offer, the experience and the story. Let everyone else handle that stuff. You should know. One caveat is you have to know everything enough to be dangerous to hire and fire properly. And I've made that mistake before. But you don't know enough. And I did fire my best ad guy ever. And we were at 6x return ad spend because I didn't know enough. So that's the one thing with hiring these experts. You got to know enough to hire fire.

So you mentioned customer support. I used to run customer support for lifx. We used to get, I don't know, thousands of tickets a week on a regular basis. You keep your support staff in house, which is something that I made a point to do immediately when I took over customer support was get rid of our outsourced support that was offsetting our stuff. Just that we could keep a full flow of information working back through me to the product and everything else. I think it's very tempting for people to outsource support as being a low level function. And I'd love it if you could talk a little bit more about what kind of data points you're able to pull back from support to better understand your customers and how you're able to leverage that into using that as like a bedrock and a profit center rather than a cost center, which a lot of people look at it as.

Yeah, so I've got a hybrid model. So I've got my two guys in house that are, you know, have 401k healthcare paid for and then I have a outsourced after hour team. And 90% of what they do is just, they do low ticket volume and really they just reply to the customer. They're like, all right, I sent this money. If they can't reply with a save reply that's already, you know, dialed in, we say no problem, I'll send to your, my manager Mike and he'll handle it on Monday. But that speed, there's two thesises with customer service. Number one is speed. So if they have a real issue, if you can answer really fast, that is 80% of it. And then number two is do you have people that truly understand the brand and a founder perspective way that can wow them. So that's why I have the guys in House for 80%. But I did want 24, 7 coverage and like they're off a day if we want to go golfing. But yeah, so what, what my guys do is pretty simple. We have a customer trends tab or workspace and Monday.com like a project management and they'll just post like things that are good that are bad feedback again from customers, you know, like, and a lot of times we use email to ask questions like, and we'll know if a product's gonna fly or not. Like, so we have a new Chipper we're making and I was like, I don't know, Chipper is gonna work or not. Like I, I'd like one, but who knows like what? My opinion doesn't matter, right? My customer's opinion is the only thing that matters. So what I'll do is we'll do an email like thinking about making a chipper and a 64 degree wedge. Which one would you want? ARB and like I'll be like, hey guys, let me know what the feedback is like. And like they just have ongoing conversations with our customers like that's been going on for years where they know each other by names. We've got like best customers that call in. But like, so for that email we got like 5,000 replies and like 80% were chipper, which blew my mind. So the guys will report back like, dude, they're just, Chipper's on fire. Everyone wants that. And I'll say, okay, cool. Now we have a micro testing order system where we're like, if it's a new product, we usually make 500 units instead of like 5,000 and do a micro launch and see how it goes and their insight and their pulse on customer trends lets me know if there's an issue, lets me know if good stuff is coming or if they want something we don't have. And it really is the voice of the company. So I really rely on them a lot. We've got a weekly, you know, that customer trends meeting just to make sure we're good. And like, that also prevents like big issues. Like I remember I wasn't on top of it in one of the nine years and we had like an issue shipping internationally that I just didn't even know about because we didn't have that trend report. My customer service guy, he meant well at the time. He's no longer with us, but he just was like, oh, I didn't know how to handle it. So I just been refunded them and they couldn't get their product. And we had to actually shut some of those countries off because we couldn't ship there consistently well. And it was like some strange countries. But that's something those trend reports and having guys in house that give a shit is gonna tell you, you know what I mean? And make. Make the company better. And also our personal videos that we make those guys make and they're golfers, dude, you know, so like they get it. They're not like, you know, just some outsourced customer service that's never played golf. You know.

I love that. And it's, it's. You're a few of the people that I had this conversation with, John, before we went in and I, Because I come from a customer support background too, when I got into E commerce by doing customer support. And I think you're right. I think it's crucial for a brand to have advocates inside the company that can, you know, tell the story by and also, you know, collect information from the, from the customers. Because if you don't talk to customers, you know, you cannot know what to give them. And I think a lot of times a very shitty customer experience can be saved by the. If they have a relationship and we.

I wouldn't say we want it to happen, but when something bad happens, that's an opportunity for us to wow them. So like literally when something like shipment doesn't show up or I can't think of an example that's really a good one now. But like we'll do our thesis is do the unexpected, right? And like we'll. Those guys, I say doesn't matter what it costs, just do what you would want. And like that by having that mission statement, it Allows them to do really what they would want as a customer. And our return customer rate for a hard good that you, you don't need a lot of is really high because we do give a shit. And like, that's, you know, one thing I've done well is actually give a shit, you know what I mean? Which is, which is a hard thing to do. If you don't love the product and you're chasing a trend and you're not in it, you're in it to make a buck. So it's like all these things seem micro add up to a bigger equation.

You know, I think you hit it because you're in a hobby that people genuinely enjoy doing and participating in. There's a lot of people that find themselves in businesses where that's not the situation, it's not the flexibility. Right. Like if you're selling a product that is more utilitarian in nature, it could be used as part of a hobby. But it's not necessarily like, I'm buying this for this purpose that brings me joy, and I want people to believe in that joy. And I think there's a lot of times that brands look at themselves to fill a market. As, you know, everyone throws around the whole painkiller analogy of oh, what's the pain of the customer to fix or whatever. Sometimes it's not about that. And if it's a different kind of product, you kind of have to adjust and participate in the market in a different way. It's awesome that you're niched and that everyone is really big on the sport and participates and can talk to that community. And I think that's a huge, huge part of what makes cool stuff happen? But there's a lot of brands that don't have that luxury. I mean, are there other little tips that brands can kind of work their way into that says, hey, maybe I'm. Maybe I am a need, but like, how do, how do I relate on like the broader topics? And I hate Personas. I don't think Personas exist really. I think that there are certain elements that exist on Personas, but the idea of bucketing people is really like a bad practice. But what would you look for if you were a brand that didn't have that built in community and your product wasn't like, oh, this is something that I like doing for entertainment and everything else.

I'd be interested to hear what examples there are, because I think any product has some community aspect. Unless it's like, hey, I'm buying duct tape, but I Think you could do with duct tape? If you're the founder of duct tape and you love that stuff and you're like, I'm making the most sickest, stickiest duct tape ever because I had to stick something. I think it all comes down to like that founder mentality, you know what I mean? Like, and anything you do, if you're doing out of passion, there will be a community that appreciates that and your angle versus like, I don't know, like I think anything can still have that. If you have messages and stories via email and via social about the product and not a painkiller. Like let's solve this problem. Stickiest duct tape in the world. But like, this is why I made it this way. You know, like, okay, we're not, we may not all be like duct tape groupies, I don't know. But they can just appreciate it's a good product and someone cared enough to make it and there's a story behind it. So I, I don't know if like, I don't know if I necessarily agree with that. 100 I think it's the story and the reason to do that because like it also makes it more competitive because the brands I have have a stronger foothold because it is such a, you know, hobby. So it's like, it's even harder to break through. It's like with skiing, same, same type of thing where yeah, it's something people love, it's a hobby, it's a passion. But that also makes their affinity to other brands a thousand acts. So. So that I think is a double edged sword, to be honest.

It's an interesting take, you know, because at the end of the day there's, I mean the truth, I guess, because I'm the devil advocate. I think the truth is that a lot of people are going into E commerce because they have that aha moment like you or some people just do it because you know, they want to do it because it's cool. And I think what John meant was, you know, about the people that are trying to just, you know, they're just dropping in E commerce just because they want to be, you know, it's entrepreneurship is glorified a lot and I think E commerce glorified a lot. And I don't think there's a very clear understanding of the hardship of being in this position of an entrepreneur. Which leads me to my next question which tell us some major fuck ups you did and what did you learn from them? I always ask this question. I plan to make a playbook by the end of this podcast with the biggest fuck ups in commerce, I have too many.

I mean I think it's funny or interesting that you say E commerce is like trending hot and that because I never was when I started, you know, it wasn't even a thing. So like such a different world even have that conversation. It's almost. I don't even know how to answer it, but I think this would be an impactful. Part of the story we didn't talk about is. I wouldn't say it's a fuck up, but it is part of the journey. I had to get to it and it's really like the struggle, right? So like I started selling some clubs. This was like year three and I still had a full time job, right? And I was, you know, I wouldn't say the breadwinner, but I was making most of the money. My wife, I just found out she was pregnant with my first kid and it was a week before Thanksgiving and bomb tech was just a side hustle. And my boss brings me to his office, says dude, you're fired. So that was the, this is really part of the story. That was the reason I went from side hustle to making it actually happen. Because I got fired from my day job, had a kid on the way and literally from that moment my wife supported me. Is like, if you want to make bomb tech happen, do it. But I work 20 hours a day, seven days a week for three fucking years with a newborn kid that, you know, I was assembling the clubs, shipping the clubs, email. Like I would, I would take pride in how many clubs I could carry to the post office. So it's like, that's the war stories that dude, like I had to go through all that to then outsource, scale, systematize. And that was like the big kick in the ass. That is not sexy. And the grind and I wasn't there. And like, so when I had my second kid, like I did all that and that's what I'm saying. A lot of this like technical strategies, new shit, it's so old to me. But when I had my second kid, said I'm not doing that now, said I'm done with that. So I took six weeks off before I had my second kid and she's now four and sales went up because I delegated to all those experts and got out of my own way. So it's like it took me all those years of doing the wrong stuff to your fuck ups of like, I shouldn't be assembling golf clubs, it was the most stupid thing I could ever do. Shipping them myself, doing all this stuff, doing customer service. I talked to so many guys at like 10 o' clock at night while building their club in my basement that I renovated to make golfers insane. But that's how I built it. And if you told me back then you need to hire someone else to do that part, you have to do that. I didn't have the money and I wasn't in the right mindset to be there. So I think everyone has their own stage in life, in entrepreneurship. And after two kids, one firing, nine years deep, I look at stuff. I don't even have Shopify app on my phone, I don't know any of my logins. You know, I just work on the high level stuff. And it's a different world where I used to be obsessed, couldn't stop and now it's a mature business and I'm also an old dude now. So I had a lot of fuck ups. But those epiphanies throughout my life and business life allowed it to get to where it's at. And I think, I don't know if it's really fun. You have to do this stuff to know what to do and what not to do and have those moments to grow. And I think anyone looking to get into it now because it's sexy to make a quick buck, good luck because it's not. And it's like it's still. It's running a business. I've had many bad moments and things I should have done different and it's not that easy, you know. And cash flow is another piece that I could talk about for days on what it means to sell 5 million and have to go spend a couple mil. So it's like, you know, it sounds cool and I've been very lucky to get it to where it's at, but it is. Any business is not easy. If it's worth doing, it's going to be difficult.

Let's hit on that for a second. There's been a move into physical products that take a little bit more to manufacture, into doing batch ordering and batch kind of releases simply because just in time. Manufacturing and shipping is all the rage right now. I come from consumer electronics background and I've seen that immensely take over in the last like three years. Everyone is doing batch shipping in order to better understand demand, better, better forecast and stuff like that. Are you guys actively. You said you did micro test batches with like small amounts of items. Is this the Way forward for people. Do you think that this is the new norm for people?

I don't know for others, but for me it is. I mean, like, because I have had many successful launches, but I had one in particular that did not go well. And it was not a golf specific product. It was beer putt, which is like beer pong for golf. And I was like, this is gonna be the best product ever. It got like 3,000 shares on Facebook organically went to launch it. Worst launch ever had. And I didn't realize this is 2016ish. I didn't realize like, all right, guys came to us because the brand is golf clubs. And I know that obviously, but it's like I thought anything except accessory wise or something fun would translate and it really didn't. So like for me, after that failure, I just, no matter what the product is, if I think it's going to be a hit or not, it doesn't matter. I just make small, small orders. For us is 500 units at a time. And we'll test it and worst case scenario, we launch it and we'll sell out over X amount of months. Or if we sell it that day, that hour, we've got a metric that says, all right, make more of them. And then really. So what we do is we try to figure out is it going to be an evergreen product, can it be our best seller products and can we keep scaling that? But in golf and in my industry, especially with the lead times now, we are, I wouldn't say taking a risk, but we're going big, man. I mean, we got like eight containers coming and all like four that just showed up. So we've got I don't know how many hundreds of thousands of clubs. You know, it's a lot of, it's a lot, it's a lot of money out because we need it to scale. So anytime we have growth and it's like not to derail, but like for me, doing 5 to 6 million a year kind of steady is cool. But last year we did seven. This year we're trying to do about 10, 11. And it's like anytime you grow, it hurts because you gotta make more products. So it's a different business. And often I've asked myself, cause I'm pushing the gas this year because there's an opportunity and we could have done a lot more last year. Often ask, what do I want out of business, do I want that risk and do I want to keep scaling? And I have been lucky enough to pull out cash and Have a great life. And so I can push, but it's a tough discussion to have because I'm debt free, I've got no investors. And it wasn't always that way. You know.

I like it. And yeah, I mean, the freedom part is the one that, you know, makes me ask you a question. But someone else from the audience asked a similar question. And he. Rashad says that sometimes entrepreneurs can get caught up in doing it all on their own. What was the moment when you knew it was time to get out of your own ways and start delegating roles? Which pans into what I was asking. How do you defeat the status quo of being so caught up in your. In your own way?

So hard. It's so hard. I think it takes time and it just takes life events that make you realize what's important. You know what I mean? And it's like, I still have that internal urgency. Like, I've always had this urgency. I gotta keep working, gotta keep doing. I gotta, like, you know, always be moving. And that does make actually things go slower because you're strangling certain things. Like, you know, even if I've got an agency that I trust, I may or used to over, you know, over input. Like, I didn't control what they want and not let them do what they should be doing and let them run. And for me, it was really a second kid, you know, Like, I don't know how else. I think everyone has to have their own life events to really realize what's important. And like, last year, you know, I just said not even last year. A couple years ago, and my parents are older and stuff, and, you know, I just decided, hey, if my dad wants to go skiing on Monday, Wednesday, Friday, I'm going skiing. I don't give a shit. So, like, and it's a tough thing to say, but if you have the right people in place, you gotta trust them. And it does take time to build a business and have the key people in place. I think that's the hardest part is to find those siloed experts, build up the infrastructure and let you do that. Because although I may not be working all the time, it's on my mind. That's the difference too. Like, it is very hard to turn it off. And this last, like two weeks, I deleted all apps from my phone. I deleted email from my phone. And I was just like 100% there with my kids. And like, I've been doing that a lot anyways with COVID I just said, screw it, I'm gonna Be all in. But now it's like, next level. I don't even know where my phone is when I'm at home. And it's like, guess what happened to sales? They're great. You know, it's like, if I trust the guys, you gotta free yourself. And it is the hardest thing to do when you always want to grow, be better. And for me, it's like, yeah, I'm getting old, man. I'm getting old. Been doing this a long time. I don't want to work forever. I do enjoy working, but I work on the shit that matters. And like today I came into the office with my computer. It's only I can check email is if I come into the office to check my email. So it's like if an email goes by and I don't reply. Sorry.

So about that process documentation, that's like the nitty gritty. And the hardest part that most people don't do until it's too late and then they have to go back through and they have to figure everything out. Give us like the top three things that you wish you did differently around that and what you would tell your younger self to do around. How important is the document process in a matter that, like, it doesn't have to be a new fancy system. It could be a Google Doc, it could be, you know, spreadsheet, but, you know, what do you make sure and how do you drill that into everyone that works for you, that if something changes, that they're documenting what they're doing so that it's beneficial to everyone moving forward?

I'll tell you, I'm not 100% done. Like, that's probably 90% of what I do now is getting the systems to a point where if I died and this has been like, I call it hit by the bus syndrome, If I literally got hit by a bus, could someone jump in and run the company? And that's the lens that I'm trying to have with Bondtech as well as the agency. And it's been super helpful. So the 90% I work on right now is just every last detail to which is so painful. I just document it. So I use Monday.com which is a newer thing for me and for the agency. And literally, it's like I try to assign a person or expert to everything we do. If it's not assigned, I hire someone. Like, literally that simple. It's like, if I still am doing it, I either say, am I going to do this or do we not need to do it? If we don't if we have to have to do it, can we automate it? If we can't automate it, then I delegate, right? And like, that's the system I go through. And I've got it broken down to, like, inventory, accounting, marketing, product design. There's like one other I can't think of right now. Customer service. And I will make a loom video and have been for every board in Monday. It's like customer service or like, inventory has been my biggest one. That's been so painful. I'll make a loom video of every step. This is how you do this. And it's like the roughest, terrible video. But someone could watch and say, oh, that's why. And then the other thing I did recently is I've now, instead of me being I'm the coordinator, bullshit. That was my whole title where I take like, the customs broker, the shipping guys, the manufacturer, my inventory guy, and I would all, like, be like all these emails and just bring them together. And now I said, you know what? I'm out. Everyone now is invited to their board. They manage it. They have to. So I manufacture, uploads a packing slip, the commercial invoice, Guess who's on a board. The customs broker that needs to see that shit. So now I'm out of it. So I can. I can see it at a high level, what's happening and like, if something's missing, but I'm not no longer the one in the middle. So they're like, hey, I'll email you. I don't do email. So you say you have to, if you're that important, that you have to contact me. And it's a consistent thing. You have a board that you manage and you upload your shit. So, like my zero guys in there SEO email, all my product launches, all my product dates, and then there's a video that's like me looking today like, hey, what's up, guys? This is how you do this. This is how you order this. This is how you make a sku like, to a painful level. But that's the only way I could get it out of my head.

Whether or not you know it, you just, like, hit every single innovative tech company's mantra, which is reducing friction and adding transparency. And that's how success happens. Uber is the best example of this. They didn't actually change anything. They just added a layer of transparency with knowing where your ride was going to be. And reduce friction by already taking a payment. Like, and you putting people together and a Monday board accomplishes those two things which allows you to remove yourself from it. Unless someone really needs to call you 911 bat phone it and say, tyler, we really need your help to sort this shit out. Because X and X isn't giving us what we need.

And that process is rough. I mean like, no way around it. It's like. Because every little thing you have to like go through and it's. It's just one of the things you got to do. And it's like, if we have to make a new product page, I have a step by step, like, this is how you do it, this is how you launch. This is when you make it live. This is how you get the copy. Like, it's just all this stuff that you as a founder could jump in in one second do. It takes, I call it go slow to go fast. And it's like it takes me 100x that amount of time to do it and document it versus just do it and not document it. Right? So like it's super painful. But like I really. That also frees me up to do shit that I like to do and that are big levers. And we're doing that same process in the agency, which has been like. That's a whole different discussion. But it's. We're now becoming. Or I'm now becoming like a. I don't know what you call it, a process or business builder versus a business doer. You know what I mean?

Yeah, there's a huge difference. I do that for my consultancy. Everything's copy paste trello boards with like checklists and everything to make sure that people know exactly what's happening. Because a lot of times you don't.

Have time to babysit.

And the best instructions are when people are actually doing this stuff themselves because it helps them learn, grow, and be able to handle stuff on their own, rather than just taking direction and you being the choke point all the time, which is something that happens a lot in a lot of smaller businesses where everything has to go up to the top and it may not be the best choice because they're worried about a bunch of other things. So unless you have things fully documented, you run into repetitive business issues.

Totally. Yeah. It's. In the agency, it's very different because like we grew that business with my partner, who was actually my first employee at Bombtech, was doing all my own email and now he's running it. And we have transitioned that from him being the true expert to now being able to scale it with the system and documents. So that's been a very different discussion, but a different ceiling we're trying to break through to get to the next level scale. So it's like, that's what I bring to the table with that business is like, yeah, I know, E commerce, whatever. But he runs that. We have a lot more people actually in that company, but it's like systems documents and then the reason why behind those is kind of the missing thing. So we kind of use like a group chat that is almost like a think tank where it's like questions. Instead of pinging one manager, the whole group works together. Therefore it's like. And with someone like, it's like, hey, how do you set up this special pop up like whatever it is some weird offshoot integration. If someone knows how to do it, they make a loom video. This is next level where I'm not even making it. They make it and then we pull that into Monday. So it's like now our team collectively becomes greater than the founders because they've got, you know, more brains, are smarter than us anyways. And now we just document what they've already told us. And it's versus so it's, it's a. I wouldn't say one to many, but it is a team effort and team growth thing we're working on on the agency and it's a different business. So that's been exciting to. To work in that industry and see if we can scale to the next level there.

That's really cool. That's. And you know, like this whole podcast, I can stop, you know, thinking about how free you your vibe is. And I'm looking at myself because I'm putting in 20 hours per day and I have kids and I'm like, damn. You know, like, it really makes me think right now. And yeah, I think everyone listening, I think should, you know, take the same because we become like enslaved to the work. My last question for you is from our sponsor from Vitex and they are asking you, if it was for you to go back in time back in 2011, would you go in E commerce again or would you do something totally different?

I have no regrets, you know, I mean, I was very lucky to do something with no expectations. And I mean, I'm just very thankful. You know, I just did it and things all happen for a reason. It's kind of. It's funny. Like, I think that's when you're not looking and you're just doing something for fun and passion. It makes the best business versus trying to look to make a Buck, it just will turn into work. So I've got no regrets. I'm lucky and fortunate. I've had the support of my, you know, friends and family, my kids and, you know, and also now to be self aware enough to know that work is not everything. You know, it's like you can build a great business. And I read this quote because I've been reading a lot now that I have nothing to do on my phone and I'm a butcher it. But it was like as a founder, your return on investment or effort diminishes like 99% after you set it up like successfully. And then it's like you don't have anything else really to do. You can help with the vision and certain things, but if you do that, the more time that goes on. And that's how I felt. And it was frustrating at first. I was like, I got nothing else to do. I can't even make the business better. I can't even pull any levers to really make it happen. And that's okay. And that was the hardest thing for me because as an entrepreneur, everyone wants to do as much as they can. They always want to work harder. And I get it. And almost to pause on that, it's really hard. And I don't know if you should, but for me it was like, I gotta live life a little, man. I don't know how long I'm gonna make it.

Yeah, it's, it's something I think we're all dealing with, all of us entrepreneurs. It's like, it's, it's like I feel it in my heart, man. And thank you, like, thank you for being here. You just gave me a lot to think from, you know, a soul searching perspective. And thank you for, for sharing your story. Was amazing to have you. And also thank you, John, for co hosting this with me. You had great questions. You should do this for a living podcast. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like you, you, you were amazing. And thank you, thank you for being here. Hope you enjoyed that and enjoy your, you know, sabbatical from social media.

Hey, you know, it's just one of those things, focus on the big levers, you know, have fun while you're doing it and you know, spend time with your family. What's the point of work if you're not enjoying it, you know, 100%.

100%. Well, I will hope to, you know, to see you soon on LinkedIn when, whenever you get the chance to post.

My computer, I, that's when I go on LinkedIn. I had to you know, make sure I still do my login here, but. Well, I'll get locked up soon and I won't even have a laptop, and I'll be really free. That's the. That's the next step. Thank you for bringing that up.

That's awesome. Thank you for taking the time to do this podcast, man, with. With us, because, you know, it might be the whole. Knows if it's gonna go. Thank you. Thank you for your time and, yeah, thank you, everyone, for watching today. Thank you, Rachelle, for the question and see you guys next week. Have a good one.

Thank you, guys.

Thank you so much for tuning in today for this episode. I think I speak for everyone when I say that Tyler's story is extremely inspirational, especially, you know, given that, I guess we're all dealing with this hustle culture where work and being an entrepreneur is glorified. But, you know, there are a lot of things that happen behind the shiny stuff, which things are, you know, keeping us entrepreneurs away from our family and away from, you know, things that really matter. So I admire Tyler for being free, for, you know, reaping all these chains that, you know, this. This culture, you know, it's. The culture is putting on. On us. And. Yeah. Thank you, John Ivanko, for co hosting this one with me. If you guys like the episode, don't forget to subscribe. And if you want to be in an episode, feel free to reach out to me in the links in the episode notes. See ya. This podcast was brought to you by Vitex. Vitex is the first and only fully integrated E commerce marketplace and OMS solution that offers fastest time to revenue and no upgrades ever. So go ahead, check them out. Vtex.com.