Ep 130: The Bristle Reaction, Icky Initiation & Bad Assumptions: 5 Surprising Lessons From Our Book

We shared our lists with each other and I was super surprised by Xander's answers. It was like, oh, that's not what I would have guessed. You would have answered you like that's.

Not what you've been doing that much of.

Yeah. And so it's just such a powerful reminder to me of like, without open and ongoing communication, you are just going to be on different pages. You are going to make bad assumptions, false assumptions. You are going to misunderstand each other.

Hello and welcome to the Pillow Talks podcast. We're your hosts, Vanessa and Xander Marin. I'm a sex Therapist with over 20.

Years of experience and I'm just a regular dude. We share the ups and downs in our relationship while giving you step by step techniques for improving yours.

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Week we are talking about our New York Times best selling book Sex the five conversations that will transform your love life. Side note, saying New York Times best selling book never gets old. That feels so good to be able to say. But our book came out in February of this year and we were really excited to release this book because we felt like this was a very important topic that people needed help with. I mean we needed help talking about our own sex life in many stages of our relationship. There wasn't a book like this at the time and we really struggled.

So yeah, we, I mean we wrote, we wrote the book that we wish someone had given us early in our relationship.

So if you've never heard about our book before, it is all about how to talk about sex with your partner and we took this huge topic like talking about sex and we distilled it down into five crucial conversations that we think every couple will benefit from having. We really wanted to make it super practical. So we lead you through step by step in these conversations exactly what to say, what, why to say it, how to say it, and we'll even share with you what the five conversations are. They're acknowledgement, connection, desire, pleasure, and exploration.

But it's not a clinical how to book. It's not like, okay, do this, then do that, do that. Like it is. We've woven our story, we've woven other couples stories who Vanessa has worked with through the whole book. So you can kind of get this sneak peek into, I mean, honestly into our lives, also into other people's lives and really see like, how this stuff is happening for other people. So I, I just, I'm so happy with the way the book turned out. I think, you know, the feedback we've gotten is that it's very easy to read. It's really a page turner.

Yeah.

And, you know, it's just, it's not, it's not a boring or clinical book. And I think that's what people worry about when it's like, oh, it's a sex book. Like, it's going to be weird. It's going to be, yeah, it's going to be clinical. It's not going to be fun to read. But like, this is fun. This is a fun book to read. A lot of people are like, oh, yeah, I just like powered through that book. I couldn't stop reading.

And we also normalize so many of the things that we all struggle with in long term relationships. Keeping the spark alive, feeling awkward about sex, struggling to talk about sex in the first place, not knowing what we want, feeling like we have mismatched libidos. Like, we talk about everything. So it's really just a very normalizing book. Really helps bring down the anxiety, but also gives you the tools to create the sex life that you've always wanted to have. So we were so excited to put this out into the world. We felt like it was very much needed. And I think we realized in those 10 months since then that it was even more needed than we initially realized. We had so many people reaching out to us, saying they cried, they felt seen just in those first few pages of the book.

There's some good stuff in those first couple pages. If you have not picked up a copy of the book yet, you're gonna want to. And you'll see why. I think you'll be, You'll. It'll. It'll be a gripping page turner from the first couple pages.

Absolutely. We got feedback from a wide variety of couples, too. Like, couples saying, you know, we're really struggling in our relationship. We are having such a hard time talking about sex and intimacy all the way up to couples saying, you know, we're in a great relationship. We're just, like, looking to make things stronger. So it was sort of this, like, this saved our marriage all the way to, like. Well, we didn't even think we had that much to improve on, but we still had a great time and had some really amazing conversations.

We also heard from so many people saying that they would catch their partner who never reads. I'm putting never reads in quotes because obviously they are doing some reading somewhere. But, you know, it's like, my partner never picks up a book. I don't remember the last time they finished a book. And, like, I'm catching them, you know, sneaking little pages here and there of your book. You know, like, I'm strategically leaving it out on the coffee table, and, like, I'll catch them reading it. And I just. I felt so good, you know, hearing that feedback, because I. It's just. It's so important to us to get both partners, both people in the partnership involved in this kind of stuff. And I think very often, especially when you bring gender into it and straight relationships, very often the guy doesn't really want to read, doesn't really want to work on their relationship, which just wants things to happen. But it's so nice to see, like, you know, this book opening up people's minds to, like, oh, I could read this. Oh, I'm kind of interested in their story. Let me learn a little more about their story and some of the other people that they've helped and, you know, see if maybe I'm inspired to do something for myself.

So we've just been thrilled to get all of this feedback about the book. And at the same time, like, it's also caused us to kind of reflect over these last few months of, like, wow, I wasn't expecting that this point would land with people so much, or, like, wow, people need a lot more help with this area than we realize. So we've done a lot of thinking over the last few months of, like, how do we help people even more with the topics that came up. Like, obviously, books can be a little bit challenging because they're limiting. There's a certain amount of words and pages that you're allowed to have. There's a lot of stuff that we ended up having to cut out of the book to make space. So we wanted to do this episode, this, like, reflection episode to look back, think about all the feedback that we've gotten, the areas that really seem to just stir things up for people, and make this episode with our five most important takeaways from the book. So whether you've read the book and loved it or you're just hearing about the book for the very first time, like, this episode is still going to be really useful because we're going to talk about five of the most important things that we share in the book. We'll describe everything to you so you won't have missed anything. And we'll talk about some ways to address these dynamics if they come up in your relationship.

And if you haven't picked up the book yet, you might as well just do that right now because it's an awesome book, if I may say so myself. Just go to Sex and we'll link you to all the retailers. And after you purchase, you can go back there, fill out a quick little form, and we'll send you a free workbook that goes along with the book that'll make it even more valuable for you. All right, but before we get into those five important takeaways Vanessa was just talking about, I'm going to share one very important takeaway from one of our listeners about our podcast.

Oh.

In our review of the week. You like that transition, babe?

That was an interesting one.

I mean, I try. I, you know, I have to tailor my approach to the subject matter at hand. So we're talking takeaways. You know, these reviews are people's takeaways. All right. Almost perfect in so many ways. Almost perfect.

Almost perfect.

Not quite, but almost. That's great. Almost as good enough for me. Pillow Talks is an amazing podcast with two amazing hosts who tell it like it is. Their desire to help others navigate the dangerous waters of sexual intimacy in relationships is palpable. You can feel it. Oh. Their authenticity is unquestionable. They acknowledge they don't know all the answers all the time. Multiple times they have done an episode on a topic they thought few would be interested in, only to have those episodes be their most popular ones by far. I said almost perfect because Vanessa and Xander aren't striving to make the perfect podcast. They want to make the best podcast, the podcast that helps the most people. And they know that sometimes that means being real, authentic, and even downright goofy. My only regret is that I can't absorb this information any faster. I already listen at 1.75x and I can't get fast enough. I'm like 80 plus episodes in, and I think it is the. Oh, the fucking best, without a doubt. Wow. They did not write the swear word. They did some finger emojis. I'm impressed. I'm impressed with that. That's very good. But I will drop the F bomb for you. Yeah, that's.

That's such a great review.

Such a great review.

That's really nice. Thank you. So the podcast and the book have something very important in common, which is that reviews are crucial for the success.

Yeah.

This is something I truly did not understand about podcasts or about books until I had one of each of my own. But truly, a book or a podcast cannot succeed without reviews. Like, reviews drive so much. They help new people coming to the book or the podcast think, like, oh, hey, this has great reviews. I'm gonna buy it. Like, I mean, who doesn't get influenced by reviews?

Oh, yeah.

I mean, if you're looking for something and it has crappy reviews, you're not gonna buy it or listen to it.

Oh, yeah. I mean, every time I look for something on Amazon, I always look at the stars. Like, oh, are there enough stars? Are there enough reviews? Okay, cool. Like, sometimes I'll get into the reviews, but at the very least, I'm like, okay, if there's like, three stars, like, probably should just buy another one.

Yeah. And just like Amazon, the algorithm takes those reviews into account as well. So if we have more positive reviews for the book and the podcast, like, we're going to show up higher on different platforms. So it really does make a huge difference. So we do a giveaway every single week with the podcast reviews as our way of saying thank you for taking 60 seconds of time to leave a review. So here's how it works. You go to the main Pillow Talks page on Apple Podcasts. Scroll to the bottom. You'll see the review section there. Leave us a review and you will be entered into the giveaway every week going forward. And if you hear your review read on an episode, email us@infomtherapy.com and you will win a prize. All right, well, let's get into our top five takeaways. We had to start with, by far and away, the big one. The biggest. The big, Big Kahuna.

The Big Kahuna. Yeah.

The head honcho.

The head honcho. The Big Kahuna. The Motherlode.

Okay. This was the one thing from the entire book that got the most attention.

And feedback, and we Were like. And we were shocked, too. We were not ready for this.

We were not. Okay, should we do a little drum roll? Drum ROLL plays. The Bristle Reaction. Okay, so if you have not read the book or seen any of the reels that we've done about the bristle.

Reaction, if you're living under a rock, basically.

So here's what it is. The Bristle reaction is when you feel yourself flinch when your partner comes in to touch you. And it could be for simple touch. They're just trying to pat you on the back or give you a hug, but you feel your whole body tense up. So I knew that I wanted to write about this reaction because it was something that I've talked about with my clients for years, and it was something that during COVID I started hearing about so much more. So I thought, you know, I want to write about this in the book. I took a lot of time trying to come up with the name for it. I was like. I knew I wanted something that, like, gave you that kind of just, like, bristly feeling. So the word bristle came up for me right away. I tried playing around with some other names, but I just kept coming back to, like, no, I think the word bristle just, like, oh, it just captures it. You. You get that feeling right away of what it is. So we wrote about it in the book. It's just like, one small section of the book. But, man, oh, man, did people react to that. So many people wrote in saying, like, oh, my God, I can't believe that you put words to this. Like, this is something that I've been going through for so long, but I never knew it was a thing. I felt so terrible. Like, why is it that I'm having this thing whole horrible. Like, it feels like a mean reaction to my partner when they're just trying to, like, do something kind and loving.

Yeah. It's like, I. I love them. Like, I love them. I. I don't want this to be happening, and yet this thing is happening, and I can't understand. I feel horrible. I feel ashamed that this is happening. And, like, you know, I think so many people are just suffering in silence with this because you. You also feel like. Well, I. I can't say something like, oh, I just. I bristle. I tense up when you touch me. Like, yeah. How can you say that to somebody that you love? That's not supposed to be happening.

Yeah, it's a perfect example of something that feels really difficult to talk about and, like, a perfect example of the kind of Dynamic that we thought, you know, we want to help couples talk about this. We want to give couples the tools, because it's so important to be able to talk about this and to be able to dismantle this if it's happening in your relationship. And I think in particular, we heard from women about this, because in male, female relationships, like, it happens in any sort of relationship configuration. But in male, female relationships, it is almost always the woman who is experiencing the bristle reaction from her partner's touch.

So we made a humble little video that went up on TikTok first. Right. It was a. It was a Get Ready With Me video. And was it one of your first Get Ready with Me videos?

Yes. It was, like, right when that trend was starting. And so our social team was like, oh, can we try this out? And was like, oh, this seems kind of weird. Why am I going to wash my face while I'm talking about something? But we did it.

Yeah. And the funny thing is that the actual topic of the video, it was not actually. It was not objectively about the bristle reaction.

It was slightly different.

The video was about just this. This little tradition that Vanessa and I have, this ritual where we make out before we go to sleep every night. And so the video was just about this, you know, this thing that we do is like, you know, why. Why me and my. It was Vanessa doing the video. So it was like, why, you know, my husband and me. Why we make out? Why my husband.

And I was about to correct you, and I was like, oh, I don't want to be the grammar police on the podcast. Xander and I are both.

My mom would be very upset about that. Sorry, mom, if you're listening. But yeah, so. So, you know, why Vanessa? Or why. Oh, my God, I'm getting everything mixed up. Why we make out before bed? And so the bristle reaction was kind of hidden, like, halfway into the video, where it's sort of like, you know, the bristle reaction is something that can come up when you are not having sort of enough touch or when the only time you kiss or hug is right before sex. And one partner is not open to that sex in that moment. And that's one of the ways the bristle reaction can come about. And so it was sort of hidden in there that way of like, oh, yeah, this is something that comes up for a lot of people. This is one of the reasons why a lot of people don't like the idea of making out before bed every night. But, you know, we do this as almost a preventative measure so that this dynamic, this bristle reaction doesn't come up. And it was like we just kept getting more and more views and views, and all the comments were like, oh, my God, the bristle reaction. Like, I, like, you finally put words to this thing, like, how do we. How do we get rid of the bristle reaction? And at first, I mean, I think we were just sort of shocked, like, oh, people are into the bristle reaction, like, more than the makeout thing. I mean, people are into the makeout thing too. There were some. There were some strong opinions in both directions about that. Oh, yeah, but man, the bristle reaction, that just took off.

Yeah, I mean, it's. I actually haven't even looked at what the views are on TikTok anytime recently, but it crossed 10 million views, like, a long time ago. And it was, I believe, right around 10 million views on Instagram.

Yeah, I think we're like hovering around 10 million views on each of those platforms. And like, the really crazy and cool thing about that is that it's like almost everyone has seen it in some. In some form or another. Like, people who don't know who we are will be like, well, like, after they meet us or something.

Like, oh, story of how that happened most recently.

Oh, well, we were. We were just guests on Zach Braff and Donald Faison's podcast, Fake Doctors Real Friends, which is an amazing podcast. Super highly recommend. Zach and Donald are super nice. We had a great time on their podcast. It was, it was really fun. And yeah, at the end of the podcast, like, the. Yeah, the. The producer was talking to Zach and Donald about, like, you know, just about who we were and how they found us. And it was like, oh, like they went tick tock viral for this, for this video about making out before bed. And Zach was like, oh, yeah, I've. I've seen that tick tock. Like, you know, my, like my ex sent that to me or, you know, something like that. And it was just like, oh, you know, it's like that, you know, the, the degrees of separation thing where it's like, yeah, like, with that many views, it's like inherently like one of your friends or something has seen that. So it's just like. It's crazy the. The way that you hear about that. Like, I'll just meet someone randomly and they'll be like, oh, yeah, I saw your TikTok.

So just to share a little bit more about the bristle reaction, we pulled our audience and 84% of people said that they have experienced it. And there are three main causes of the bristle reaction. One is being touched in ways that you don't like. So a lot of people get the bristle reaction in response to something like the boob honk or gas slap.

Yeah.

Where it's like, I don't want to be touched in that way. Like, it just, like my body recoils, my partner touches me in a way that I don't want.

And to be clear with that one, you're not talking about like one time, you're talking about like repeated over and over. Like, this is something where it's like, you know, oh, like you've been honking my boobs for years. And at first it was kind of like, oh, that's like kind of funny, kind of not funny. And then like, it keeps going and going and going. So, you know, don't worry people. This isn't the type of thing where it's like, oh, you make one wrong move and you've, you know, you've created this unhealthy dynamic. This is like, you know, for months or years of sort of repeated action without any communication about like, hey, I don't actually like that.

Yeah. The second major cause is not enough non sexual touch. So in a lot of long term relationship, in most long term relationships, like, we wind up touching each other less and less and we start like only touching each other as the lead up to sex. So we start making this association that, oh, if my partner's touching me, they want sex. So again, it leads to that recoil if like you're in a moment where your partner's touching you and you're like, oh, I don't want them to get the wrong idea or like, I don't want it to lead to sex or anything like that. Like, you really pull away from their touch.

And that was kind of the angle that we were taking in that TikTok video that I was telling you about is that, you know, we have this makeout session and kind of cuddle session thing. And in general, like, the idea is not that it's meant to lead to sex. Sometimes it does and that's fine. But most often it doesn't. It's just something that we like to do. It feels good to be able to do that with each other.

Should we do a whole episode on the makeout thing? We actually just talked about it in stories recently and we got like a fresh wave of comments of people being like, why did you do this and.

Why would you do that?

What if he gets turned on? And what if he does want to lead to sex.

Heaven. Heaven forbid someone gets turned.

Let us know. Come over to Instagram. We're at Vanessa and Xander. Let us know if you want us to do a whole episode. Oh, yeah, the nightly makeout.

Yeah, we totally could, but that was sort of the. That, that is the antidote to, you know, the bristle reaction. Not, not that like you have to make out before bed, but, you know, incorporating more structured touch in a way. Structured intimacy, which is more non sexual. That is non sexual, where it's like the goal of it is not to lead to sex.

And then the third common cause of the bristle reaction is indirect sexual initiation. So this kind of goes hand in hand with the last one that I was talking about. Like, if you are not being direct with your initiation, you wind up doing it in these very indirect ways. Like, I'm going in for a hug, but I'm letting it linger for a.

Little longer, squeezing a little more than I usually do.

Yeah.

And so it's like nobody's saying anything in the moment, but you both know what's going on. And again, it's like that feeling of if your partner's grabbing at you and you can tell like the exact moment that that touch starts to mean, like, are you open to something more and you're not into it. It's just like, ah, let me pull away from this.

Yeah, let me, let me avoid this. Let me get away from the situation before it even starts. I think that's really where it comes from because, I mean, I. I've experienced this myself, you know, very early on in our relationship when an unhealthy dynamic like this was. Was coming up. And it was like, you know, a time where I was not feeling very confident with myself sexually. And so I found at first it was like, you know, it wasn't like, oh, yeah, let me bristle to my wife's touch. It was more just like, oh, I'm not feeling open to sex, so let me try to avoid this situation before it even starts. And I think that's a. It's a very innocent thing at first that feels like, oh, I'm just doing the nice thing. I don't, you know, I don't want to have to, you know, let her get to a place where she's going to initiate. I definitely don't want to get to a place where I have to turn her down. So. So let me just do the nice thing and avoid the situation. But the reality is when that happens, especially repeatedly, like, everybody knows what's going on. You're not actually. You're not actually pulling one over on your partner. You're not actually doing anything.

Pulling a fast one.

Pulling a fast one. You're not. You're not really doing anything nice. You're actually just, like, you know, prolonging the misery.

Yeah. So on top of getting all those views on social media, we also got interviewed by some really big publications about it. We got interviewed by, well and good, the Huffington Post, Newsweek, and most recently, the New York Times did an entire profile piece just about the Bristle Reaction, which was so freaking cool to see.

Yeah. I mean, you've basically created a new word or term now. Like, if you Google bristle Reaction, it's all. It's all us. And you really, like, you know, like, interviews with you that, you know, the New York Times piece and stuff. Like, you know, this could be something that ends up, like, in the dictionary in a couple of years. I think that is so cool.

Yeah, I do think it's cool. And, I mean, this is the prime example of what we hope to do with our work. It's like putting words to things that most of us have experienced but we don't realize is a thing, and it's normal and common. So just helping people feel normal and realize, like, it's okay to be experiencing this. Lots of other people do. And, hey, we have some solutions for you of how to get out of it if you are experiencing it. So it was just very, very cool for us to see that piece. And again, it, like, not something that, like, we were expecting people to be like, oh, yeah, I got it. I feel that, too. But, like, we were not expecting the level of attention and feedback that it got. And so it was really cool to see that happen. All right, let's get into number two. This is kind of tied in with the Bristle Reaction.

Oh, it's. Yeah, it's very. It's very tied in, you know, now. Now that we've seen how the Bristle Reaction thing landed, it is no surprise. I'm not surprised at all about this second one. But if you just came to me, you know, in February right before the book was released and told me about the second one, I'd be like, what? Really?

Yeah. Okay, so here's number two. People need way more help with initiation than we realized. So we have a. Like, one of these sex talks is desire, and Within Desire. Like, that whole chapter is about, like, how do we get turned on and excited to be intimate with each other? And a huge part of that, how do we actually initiate sex?

Yeah, I. E. How do you communicate your desire that you are feeling to your partner?

So we had a lot of fun stuff about initiation in the book. We had like this initiation styles model that we came up with which is, it's similar to the love languages model. And like, you know, the love languages is all about how we have different ways that we like to give and receive love. And the initiation styles model is that we have different ways that we like sex to be initiated. So we go through all the styles in the book. We help you talk about, like, what style is your style and helping you and your partner understand, like, the best way to invite each other to be intimate. So when the book came out, we started getting so much feedback about the initiation styles menu. We also had an exercise called like sex menus. It was really fun. We started getting so much feedback from it that we realized like, okay, this is an area that people are struggling with a bit more than we realize. So we started putting up some polls on Instagram asking about initiation and at that point realized like, oh, initiation is like, this is a big, big problem in a lot of relationships.

We also put together a series of reels on Instagram and they're also on TikTok. I think they really popped off on Instagram, more so than TikTok even, but about bad initiation. So we, we played out kind of these classic bad initiation tactics such as the boob honk or you know, kind of like making dirty jokes that are. Give you some plausible deniability.

Oh, the spray and pray. Just like initiating as many times as possible.

Constantly.

Finally get a yes.

Constantly initiating or, you know, making this sort of like, oh, like, why don't you sit on my face jokes. But it's like five times a day and it's like, oh, well, maybe one of those five they'll say yes. But if they don't, I can just be like, like, yeah, I was joking, like, you're crazy. I wasn't trying to initiate with you. And those reels like popped off. Like, people were just like, oh my God, like I hate this one. Or like, oh, actually I kind of secretly like this one. And it was like, oh, okay. It was so cool to be able to. Yeah. To put words to these things that people before just hadn't really been able to, you know, verbalize.

So just a little behind the scenes info. Like one thing that we decided to do once we started getting all this feedback is we thought, you know, we want to make a course about initiation. We had a Small masterclass about initiation at the time that was really just like, it had a couple, like, few dozen ways of initiating and some information about, like, how to turn your partner down if you're not open to it. But it was like, it was meant to be like a little bite sized masterclass.

It was very tactical. It was like, here, here's some examples, here are some suggestions. It wasn't, it wasn't like, okay, everything you think you know about this is wrong. And we kind of got to rewire your brain and how you think about that and also how you communicate with your partner about it.

Yeah. So we scrapped that masterclass and we ended up creating a course out of it called the Art of Initiation.

And I mean, the funny thing is we actually didn't come at that as like, we're going to scrap this masterclass and create a course. We were kind of like, we're going to revamp this thing. We're going to make the masterclass better. And we started digging into it, remember? And like, we started digging in and it was like, okay. We started outlining, like, okay, well, we could add this and we could add that and you know, oh, maybe we actually got to back up even more and start with this or, you know, think about this even more philosophically almost. And then after that, we were like, oh, shit, this is, this is not a masterclass anymore. Like, this is going to be multiple hours of course content. And I personally was like, oh, I don't know about this. Like, we weren't, we weren't planning to launch a new course because, like, that's a, that's a big thing to do. We weren't really ready to do that.

We got excited though.

But then we were like, you know what? Like, this is, this is the right thing to do. But I was really scared because I was like, well, you know, this was a small master class. It wasn't like our greatest selling product, and now we're blowing it up and turning it into like, honestly a big, A big ish course. But the reality was it turned out people just needed more help with it because now Art of Initiation is one of our better selling products. So I was so happy to be proven wrong there. But yeah, just, you know, it was, it. All it meant was that people needed, you know, kind of all the help, not just like a couple of suggestions.

And I think one thing it even helped us realize was that initiation is really the key to so many other challenges that come up in people's sex lives. Like, like, it's very Easy for us to blame things like, oh, well, we just have mismatched libidos. But actually that may be more of an initiation problem. Like, if you're not initiating in the way that your partner likes, you're gonna get no's a lot more often when it might not be that your partner has less desire. They just don't like the way you're initiating. And it even like, ties into your overall enjoyment of the experience. Like, if sex doesn't get started on a good foot, like, you don't like the way that your partner initiated and you're like, I've said yes, but yeah, I'm not really into these. That kind of. Yeah, I didn't like that. Like you're starting behind, you know, and it's so much harder to get, like, in the mood, get excited, to enjoy yourself, to have pleasure and excitement. Like, there's just so many other dynamics that get wrapped up in it. And so that's part of the reason why we ended up creating this bigger course. Like, we got so excited by all the tools and resources that we were creating. Also, this was the chapter of the book where we had to make the most cuts. I had a lot of content about initiation that our editor was like, this is great, but it's like you're kind of talking about a course about initiation. Like, it doesn't fit fully into the book.

Yeah, we can't have a thousand page book.

Yeah, they didn't sign on for that.

Sorry.

We were able. It's not a thousand page course. I don't want to make it sound like too big and overwhelming to people.

No, it's not. It's really not.

No. Like, we had a lot of fun exercises and stuff like that that we couldn't put into the book that we ended up being able to put in the book.

It's better suited for a course because it's like, it's, you know, there's some kind of philosophical kind of stuff like that, but then there's also some practical stuff where it's like, okay, stop and talk about this or think about what works for you. And that doesn't really work so well in a book. A book is not meant to be a course. And, you know, and when you try to force a course into a book, I think it's just not so easy to be consumed. So I think the book is. The book is great in giving you a kind of a baseline, a foundational understanding of a lot of this stuff. But yeah, we really needed to go deeper, which is why we created that.

So I do want to give you something tactical and practical to take out of this episode. So one simple exercise that you can do with initiation is to share with your partner a few of your favorite ways for them to initiate sex. So anywhere from like 1 to 3, and they can be things that your partner has done in the past, they can be ways that you've initiated with your partner, or they can be things that neither of you have ever done before but you think you might like. So one of the biggest challenges that comes up with initiation is like, we just don't know how to do it, and we're so unique in terms of what we all like and want. So taking that time for yourself to identify, like, what actually would turn me on, what would feel exciting, what would feel like an invitation to me, and then sharing that with your partner, that is such a powerful conversation to have. I'm so excited to tell you about our newest podcast sponsor, Jaejoo. So as soon as I started my sex therapy practice, I started getting approached by every single sex toy company under the sun. And all these companies would send me different toys, ask me to try things out, to recommend them to my clients and community. And I gotta be honest with you, I got sent so many toys that I just didn't like. I didn't think the quality level was high enough. I didn't think that they were great toys. And so I really struggled to find a company that I felt super comfortable recommending. Thankfully, though, Jaejoo was one of those early companies that reached out to me and I had a completely different experience with them. I think their toys are so high quality. So I'm really excited that all these years later, they are now a podcast sponsor and we can tell you a little bit more about them. Jew is a premium sex toy company that has been encouraging individuals to explore their bodies since 2005. All of their toys are made with body safe silicone. And this is so important. I think most people don't realize that the majority of sex toys are made out of materials that are actually not safe for your body. So I've always been impressed by JJU's commitment to only using body safe materials. They have an incredibly unique motor. It's a low frequency motor which helps the vibrations travel further into your body and can give you more intense orgasms. They have whisper quiet motors. A lot of their toys have multiple speeds, different patterns that you can use. They're 100% waterproof, 100% vegan, and rechargeable. One of My favorite products of theirs is the Mio. It's a vibrating cock ring. So you get the benefits of the cock ring, the penis owner. It can keep you harder, it can help you last a little bit longer and you get the vibration, which can be really enjoyable for the partner. Visit jew.com for their black Friday sale. Go to J E j o u jew.com for their Black Friday sale that runs from November 10th to November 30th for up to 50% off.

And let's tell you a little bit more about Babel. So I have a confession to make. I shared with you a few months ago ago that Xander and I actually signed up for Babel completely on our own. They were not a podcast sponsor at the time. We both just felt really inspired to work on our Spanish and we did a ton of research. We even pulled our Instagram community asking like, what is the best language learning app. We chose Babel on our own, paid for it with our own money and.

We were really just excited to get started with it.

So I was doing really well with it, like practicing every single day. And then I got Covid and I have not been up on my babble.

I just like was too tired, too.

Exhausted to do it and I'm really missing it.

And now that I am finally feeling.

Healthier, I am ready to jump right back into it. Babbel really has made learning Spanish so much fun for me. The lessons are really short, so I can squeeze something in if I just have like a few minutes before a meeting or if I'm waiting for an appointment or something like that, that it's gamified like, but in a nice way, in a way that encourages you to keep learning, but it's not like really over the top.

I really like it.

Babbel's quick lessons are designed by over 150 language experts to help you start speaking a new language in as little as three weeks.

All of their tips and tools for.

Learning a new language are approachable, accessible, rooted in real life situations, and delivered with conversation based teaching. Xander and I have both been loving it so much and we're really excited that they are a podcast sponsor and we can recommend them to you as well. And we are very excited because Babel is offering you a special limited time deal for our listeners to get you started. Right now, get 55% off your babel subscription, but only for pillow Talks listeners@babbel.com Pillow get 55% off at babbel.com that's spelled b a b-b e l.com Pillow rules and restrictions may apply. Before we go any further, I want to tell you a little bit more about Dipsea. So I know that spicy books have really been getting all the attention these days.

There are a couple big series out there that a lot of people are reading.

And if you are curious about spicy books or you've read spicy books and you are surprisingly into them, then I think you are going to love Dipsea. Dipsea is an app full of hundreds of short sexy audio stories designed by women for women. And they bring scenarios to life with immersive soundscapes and realistic characters. So you can find stories about second chance romances, adventurous vacation flings and hot and heavy hookups. I think you are really going to.

Be surprised to see how big of.

A difference listening to Dipsea can make.

For your sex drive.

Like having a sexy story directly in your ear voiced by someone with a very sexy voice.

It's just a very immersive experience.

And we've heard from so many of you who have given Dipsea a try and we're just absolutely shocked by the amount of spice that it's just bringing into day to day life. So Dipsea has also added something new. They now have have stories that are voiced by your favorite TikTok creators. So if you have somebody that you.

Love on TikTok, you just watch their.

Videos because you love the sound of their voice, then come on over to Dipsea and see if they are voicing any stories.

And for listeners of the show, Dipsy.

Is offering an extended 30 day free trial. When you go to dipsystories.com pillow that that's 30 days of full access for free. When you go to dip. S eastories.compillow that's dipsystories.compillow that's a 30 day free trial. So there's literally nothing to lose by giving it a shot and seeing if Dipsy can add some spice into your life.

All right, let's move into number three. And that is the importance of emotional intimacy. So we knew from the beginning of writing the book that we really wanted to talk about emotional intimacy, especially compared to physical intimacy.

Right?

Yeah. Like we talk about like emotional and physical intimacy are two sides to the same coin. Like every relationship needs both to survive and I think most relationships are struggling with both as well. Like we're struggling with the physical intimacy. We're also struggling with the emotional intimacy. So we knew we wanted to talk about emotional intimacy intimacy. And we also felt like this was something that differentiates us from other People out there in the world doing similar kinds of work. Like, there are a lot of relationship therapists out there. There are a much smaller number of sex therapists, but they tend to, like, stay in their own lane. Like, the relationship therapists just talk about relationship stuff. The sex therapists just talk about sex stuff. And I've always found that to be so weird because to me, I'm like, Like, there's both. How can we not talk about emotional intimacy without physical and physical without emotional? So we knew from the beginning, like, we wanted to talk about emotional intimacy, and we knew that we wanted it to be important and central. So it's actually the second of the five sex talks is connection. What do we need to feel connected to each other? And so one particular dynamic that we talk about in the book is what we call the emotional physical conundrum syndrome.

So this is where very often partners can feel like they're. They're at an impasse when it comes to sex, where one partner will be saying or feeling, well, hey, we're not feeling connected. So, like, why would I want to be having sex with you? And then the other partner is either thinking or saying or feeling like, well, I don't feel connected because we're not having sex. Like, if we were. If we were having more sex or if we were just having sex, ex, I would feel connected to you. And it's just this impasse that you so very often can get into. And then the result is then there is not sex. And there is probably also not emotional intimacy because one person is both people are wanting both of those things, but they aren't knowing how to go about it to be able to get each of them.

Well, the whole conundrum boils down to, like, what comes first? Like, someone. One partner might say, like, well, I don't want to have sex with you until we feel emotionally connected. And the other one's like, like, but how I feel emotionally connected is by us having sex. So it. It leads to this standoff of like, well, I want my thing first. And so I share in the book that as a young therapist for years, I was really trying to help couples get both at the same time and trying to say, like, look, they're both equally important. You guys both want both. Like, how do we find little ways of getting a little bit of both at the same time?

Less compromise.

And to honest, Like, I share this in the book. Like, it had limited success. Like, couples were still feeling really stuck. And so when I sat down to write this book, and in Writing this section in particular, I thought, like, okay, my. The approach that I had used for so long wasn't really very effective, to be totally honest. So, like, I think I've gotten to the point where one of the types needs to come first. Like, we've got to focus on one first before we can experience the other. And this was something that I had been working through in our own relationship, too, because we, like most couples, are different types. We're actually the opposite of the typical gender breakdown that we see in male, female relationships. So typically in male female relationships, the woman is the one who wants emotional intimacy first, and the man is the one who wants physical intimacy first. But we are the opposite. I want physical intimacy. Xander often wants emotional intimacy. So we were struggling with this in our own relationship. And Xander and I had a conversation, like, as I was struggling with writing this section of the book, where he was explaining to me what it felt like in times that we have struggled with intimacy in our relationship. Like, what it felt like for him feeling, like, me wanting to have sex when he was feeling so disconnected from me. And he's, you know, I forget the exact words that he said, but it was something like, like, it just. It doesn't feel good to have sex with you when we're feeling so disconnected.

Yeah, it was kind of like, you know, it doesn't feel safe, like, when we don't have that. That level of connection. Sort of at least like a baseline level of connection. And that was a hard thing.

Wait, can you describe what you mean by safe? Because I think sometimes people hear safe and they think, like, actual physical safety. Like, worried that I was going to do something to you.

Yeah, no, no, not, like, physically unsafe, but I guess it doesn't feel emotionally safe. Like, it doesn't feel like we are in a good situation because when we would be coming to this impasse, it would be when we were, you know, in the midst of a fight or, you know, just generally disconnected. Maybe after we had disagreed about something, things were not feeling stable between us. And I got to be really careful with what I'm saying. I'm not saying things were not stable, like we were going to break up. Up. That's not what I'm talking about. But. And I guess this was why it was so hard for me to describe this to Vanessa for so long, because, you know, like, we've been married for a long time. We really love each other. I've. I've no fear that we are about to break up. And yet, you know, it's Hard to be able to share that. Hey, like, when we are just generally feeling disconnected, like, there's this level of, like, not feeling that safe life together. And that's a hard thing to be able to share with your partner. And so it took me many, many years to, you know, I. I had. Didn't really have the words for it initially, but also, you know, then it's like, but it took me many years to be able to get those words and also get the courage to be able to share that, because that just feels like a hard thing to share, especially as a man, too. I'm like, what? What? Like, are you crazy? Like, you don't feel safe with your wife? Like, you're not. Like, that. That shouldn't be happening. Right. Like, that shouldn't be possible. Like, you're not in a physically abusive relationship. And so it was just a hard thing to be able to share. But I think that, you know, people that tend to be more emotional connection first feel this. Like, oh, it just. It doesn't. Like, I need to feel a certain vibe between us that things are okay. And so once I was able to share that, I think that that was very valuable for you to understand.

Yeah. So that conversation was really instrumental in helping me take a stand and say, I think emotional intimacy should come first. And that was hard for me to say because, again, I'm a physical intimacy first type to me. Like, I feel emotionally connected through having sex, and I can go from like, hey, things are in a fight between the two of us. Let's have sex. And then, yes. Oh, it feels so much better. I feel so good. I feel so connected.

Connected.

Like, so it was hard for me to say, to realize that Xander doesn't operate in the same way. It was like, but can't. Can't you see? Like, it's so much better after we have sex, you know? And it was hard to hear. Like, it doesn't feel safe. Like, it did bring up some fears and anxieties for me, and, like, wait, but, like, you know, like, I would never do anything to you. Right? Like, it was. It was a tricky conversation for us to have. But I'm so glad that we had it. And I'm so glad that I was able to, like, take that step back and say, like, of course it's human to, like, want your thing to come first. But I really had so much empathy for Xander's perspective that I was like, no, I. I get it in a different way now. And I really do think that the emotional intimacy should come First.

Yeah. And it's like. And you. You. I think what you said, you didn't say it in these words, but it was like. It was like, oh, well, like, yeah, I. Of course I want my thing to come first, but not at the expense.

Yeah.

Of. Of you not feeling, you know, emotionally safe. And so that was so validating for me to be able to just hear that from you. Of. Oh, you're not feeling, like, emotionally safe or stable. So. Yeah. Why would you want to. Like, why would you want to have sex when you are not, you know, feeling that kind of just baseline safety or connection or whatever it is?

Well, another thing that really got through to me is that you're. You were like, like, well, when we're in places of, like, feeling disconnected or irritated or frustrated with each other, you're like, it's not very pleasant to have sex with you. Like, no, you're cranky or you're mad at me. And it, like, for some reason, it just clicked in my head, and I was like, oh, you're right. Like, I was so focused on the, like, yeah, I'm irritated, but, like, let's just get it done, get it in, and then I'm gonna be super happy afterwards.

Yeah. And also, it was like. It was like, it's also really hard for me to get it up. It's really hard for me to perform.

I understand that now.

If I do perform, it's not particularly enjoyable, and often I come away afterwards actually feeling kind of worse.

Yeah. And I realized, too, I was like, it's not. It's not good sex. Like, I do absolutely feel better afterwards. And then I feel like we can kind of, like, move forward and rebuild things from that place. But I was like, like, yeah, it's not actually good sex. It's just, like, get her done so we can get back on track kind of sex. So that was like, a good light bulb moment for me, too. Of like, ooh, this isn't like, yeah, it's valid for me to experience closeness through sex, but it's just not a pleasant experience for either one of us. So, you know, I say very clearly in the book, both types of intimacy are equally valid and equally important. Emotional intimacy is not. Not better than or more like, advanced than physical intimacy. All that we're saying with this is that if you're feeling disconnected, if you're feeling like you're lacking that foundation, whether that's because it's been going on for a long time or you're just feeling a little bit off with each Other, in those moments that you're feeling disconnected, start with emotional intimacy first. So we got so much feedback from people saying, like, this felt very normalizing. It feels really reassuring. It like, I. It emphasizes safety. Like, yeah, this is what I need to. Like, I want to feel emotionally close to my partner before I open myself up to them physically.

And it also, you know, gives the reader the language to be able to share with their partner what's going on, to be able to start kind of unwinding the impasse that you might be in.

Exactly. Like, we. We have to be able to talk about it in these words. Like, if you're just saying, like. Like, no, I don't want to, or I'm not in the mood, like, that's confusing for your partner. It doesn't really give them anything to work off of versus saying like, hey, I want to be intimate with you. Physical intimacy is important to me. I just want us to be able to feel close to each other and connected to each other before we move on to being physical. So it's just a totally different way of talking about it. One of the other benefits is that.

It also brought to light that a.

Lot of couples are struggling to feel that emotional intimacy with each other. That was something that we normalized in this chapter too. Like, emotional intimacy takes effort to maintain. Like, we go through ebbs and flows in it. Like, you don't just get into a relationship with somebody and then you feel close to them for the rest of eternity. Like, it's something that we have to put effort into. Just like we have to put effort into our sex lives.

Yeah, I mean, it's like a gas tank, really. It's like. I think very often in relationships, you fill that emotional gas tank up very quickly as you're getting to know someone, having all these conversations, and then it feels full, and you're like, oh, great, we have emotional intimacy. We know everything about each other. And then you kind of, like, you take your foot off the gas now and mixing metaphors now, oh, boy. You kind of forget, like, oh, yeah, this thing is full. And so you don't really notice as it is going, as it is sort of starting to. To. To get used up or get lower over time. And then all of a sudden it's like, oh, whoa. Like, where. Where did all the gas go? But it's like, oh, yeah, no, I forgot. Like, I gotta be taking action to be constantly filling that tank up.

And emotional intimacy ties into desire for a lot of people too. Like, if you're not feeling close to your partner. It's normal. And it's understandable to not want to get naked with them. I mean, sex requires vulnerability, and it's really hard to feel open to vulnerability when you're feeling so disconnected from your partner. So we're just really proud of how much we centered emotional intimacy in the book of the tools that we gave people for feeling more emotionally connected to each other. But I guess that's another, like, practical thing that you can take out of this episode, is trying to identify. Like, in the book, we call them your needle movers. Like, what are the little things that you can do on a consistent basis to maintain that emotional connection with each other? Like, we don't want you getting to the point where you're, to use Xander's metaphor, where you're realizing, like, the gas tank is on empty. We've got so much to fill up. Like, how can we keep the gas tank half full so that we're, you know, just cruising? Moving along to takeaway number four. This is tied in with emotional intimacy very much. We realized that we need to talk a whole lot more about the unsexy things that get in the way of sex, like mental load and being touched out. So these are two things that really, like, feed emotional intimacy or take away from emotional intimacy. If you've never heard of mental load before, it is the invisible labor that goes into running and maintaining a household and a family. So it's identifying what needs to be done, what are the ways to get it done, making decisions, monitoring progress, ensuring that things get done, making adjustments along the way. So it's not just the tasks and chores and responsibilities themselves. It's all the information that you need to keep track of about those tasks. So it's not just like, oh, I got to do the laundry. It's, oh, Timmy needs to have his soccer jersey by Tuesday. And I can't put these pants into the dryer because they shrink. And I have to buy this kind of laundry detergent. And we're almost out of the laundry detergent, so I need to get more laundry detergent on my next trip to the grocery store. Mental load is never ending. And it is all encompassing. And research has shown that in male female relationships, the vast majority of mental load falls on the woman's shoulders.

And to all the people out there who might be listening and be like, oh, so it just sounds like it's a job. Just like, I have a job, you know, in an office or a job at wherever the hell you work. The differentiating factor here Is that this is a mental load. Stuff. Stuff is a 24 hour job. So whereas your job outside of the house, or maybe inside the house, if you work from home is like, you have working hours. And even if you get a lot of emails or slacks, like off of working hours, like you are never actually working 24 hours. You get to go on vacation, you get to, you know, kind of compartmentalize your work in your brain in a way where it's like, okay, well like I'm working now, or like, oh, I'm not working now, I don't have to check my phone. I don't have to do any of this.

This.

Whereas mental load, household type of responsibilities, you don't ever get to turn your brain off for it. It's like you could, you can and are reminded of that mental load at all hours of the day. You might be, you know, putting, putting your, your kids to bed and realizing like, oh, like they don't have any clothes to wear tomorrow. Oh, shoot, I have to. You know, then it's like all of a sudden you're off to the races thinking about how you adjust the schedule or like, oh, can I do that tonight? Do I have to do that in the morning? Like, do we have time to do that in the morning? So it's like, you know, once you've taken responsibility for these things, you can't just turn them off or like the, the household ceases to function. It impacts more than, than just you. And so I just want to differentiate that. Cause I think a lot of the time, a lot of the first time that men hear this, they go, oh, yeah, okay, just like, just like my job. But there's some very key differences. And often the person that takes on the mental load also works another job.

Okay, so that's mental load. Being touched out is an experience that primary caretakers often have after being physically touched all day long. So this happens most often with kids. Your kids are literally like latched onto you, holding onto you. You're carrying them around all day. It can also happen with needy pets or with adults that you're taking care of of, but it's just your body being like physically overwhelmed and you get to the end of the day and you just cannot be touched anymore. So mental load and being touched out are dynamics that have been talked about a lot more recently and especially on social media. It's been really great to see more attention brought to these terms, but we haven't seen anybody really talking about how they impact physical intimacy. Even though it's Very clear.

Clear.

Like with mental load, if your brain is just constantly going all day long, you're not going to be able to shut off and be present in the moment and be connected with your partner. If you feel like the mental load is imbalanced in your relationship, which is the case for the vast majority of relationships, you're going to feel resentful, disconnected, frustrated. And if you're being touched out, like, that's a very obvious image there, you're like, I do not want any more touch. I don't want sexual touch, I don't want non sexual touch. Like, just get away from me.

Yeah, Neither of these things are recipes for success in bed.

Yeah. So both of these things have huge impacts on your sex life. But again, it's like there's nobody really talking about the connection between those two things. So we had small paragraphs on each concept in the book and we pushed really hard to include these things because we felt like they were so important. But we even got like a little bit of pushback of like, well, is this really like tied in that much to sex? Like, maybe we should talk about something else instead. But we really wanted to talk about it. And then after hearing feedback from people who read the book, like, oh my God, thank you for tying those things together, like, we realized, like, yeah, we've got to talk about this even more.

And much like initiation, these things, if they are a big struggle, a big issue in your relationship, they are going to be, you know, almost like gates or like gatekeepers to your sex life, to your sex drive, to your ability to enjoy sex. And so they're so important to keep talking about, keep working on. And you know, because I think it's, it's just so easy for people to be like, okay, yeah, I carry most of the mental low. That's how it's been for the last 10 years. Like, what am I supposed to do? Like, like, okay, like, I get it, but like, can we just work on my sex drive? Can't we just fix the sex drive or fix the sex that we're having? Or like, okay, yeah, I'm touched out. Of course I'm touched out. I have kids. Like, I can't do anything about that. So can we just focus on the sexier stuff? And it's like, sorry, you can't focus on the sexier stuff. You gotta deal with the unsexy stuff first. You gotta deal with the initiation, you gotta deal with the mental load, you gotta deal with the being touched out.

Absolutely. So our recommendation, when it comes to mental load is for couples to make a clear and specific game plan for dividing up the mental load. So literally making a list of all the mental load in your lives and making a plan for how you split it up, how you share it, how you tackle it together.

It's not actually. It's not necessarily about it being 50 50. It's just about being able to balance it in some way that feels appropriate to you. Because, like, yeah, there's no. It's not like, you can be like, oh, well, 5050 is the only fair way. It may be that one based on schedule, based on whatever. But it's just so. Because most people's experience is like, I do all of it. Or maybe, you know, I have. Maybe I've assigned things to my partner, but they're just, like, not even aware of what I'm going through. And, like, I. We need to be able to find ways so that both of us kind of have. That have responsibility for some of the ongoing nature of. Of the mental load rather than it's like, okay, cool, you do your chores, and that's it. It's like, you do your chores, and you're also responsible for all these. The, you know, the inputs and the outputs of the chores, so to speak.

So we do have a resource if you want help making that plan. It's called our mental load workbook. We will put the link for that in the show notes. All right, and let's bring it on home with our fifth takeaway from sex talks. We are all guilty of making some pretty bad assumptions about what our partner wants.

Probably a lot of bad assumptions. Not just some.

A lot of bad assumptions. Absolutely. So we knew, like, going into it, that it's important to have these conversations. And that's why we picked, like, these five specific conversations, because we felt like there was the most opportunity for misunderstanding and assumption in these specific areas. And boy, oh, boy, did we get feedback about this. Like, so many people reached out to say, like, I was absolutely shocked having this conversation. Like, my partner had an answer to this question that I never would have guessed. And, like, I'm so glad we got this all out on the open because now it feels like we're on the same page. So one of the most interesting examples of this was a woman who reached out to us on Instagram and she said she shared with us a story that, like, at the beginning of her relationship, there was one time where she had told her partner not to go down on her, and she said that he had taken that, like, a blood Oath, or she said.

She felt like. She said. It felt as if we had just signed a blood oath.

Like, then he never went down on.

Her ever again, and she couldn't say anything, and she couldn't ask for that because she herself had requested that he not do that. And it was like. It's like this unspoken. Okay, I said it once, and from. And it was right at the beginning. And from here on out, we shall never do this and we shall never speak.

Yeah. And so it was like, years or maybe even a decade later where she's like, I want oral sex, but I feel like I've, like, slimed this blood oath and now I'm not allowed to bring it up.

And he's probably like, I want to give you oral sex. I've been wanting to do it for years. I felt like I couldn't.

And this was even an example where there was some open communication. Like, we heard other ones that were like, yeah, we just never talked about it, period. So my partner assumed that I always want this or I never want this, or, like, we've been having sex. Sex this way for years, and now I feel like I, you know, I can't do anything different. And we have even experienced similar dynamics ourselves. Like, we did all of the exercises in the book ourselves, and one of them was, there's a touch map exercise in sex talks where you go through, like, your favorite ways and places to be touched. And we shared our lists with each other. And I was super surprised by Xander's answers. It was like, oh, that's not what I would have guessed. You would have answered.

You're like, that's not what you've been doing that much of.

Yeah. And so it's just such a powerful reminder to me of, like, without open and ongoing communication, you are just going to be on different pages. You are going to make bad assumptions, false assumptions. You are going to misunderstand each other.

Also, it's like, sometimes you don't even think about what you want. It's like. Like. Like, in that case, what Vanessa just described with this touch maps thing. When we. Whenever we were having sex, I was never thinking, like, oh, God, like, why. Why isn't she kissing my neck? More like, I got. I just wish that she would kiss my neck or, you know, whatever it is. It's like, in the moment, I'm not thinking about that because I'm just thinking about us having sex. But it's like, once we took the. The moment to do that exercise, and I'm thinking, okay, well, what is if, you know, if I could choose five places for you to touch me, what? Or kiss me, what would they be? Then all of a sudden, I'm thinking about it. I'm like, oh, maybe it would be this, maybe it would be that. So I just think it's. It's also important to remember with this whole assumptions thing, you know, it's not. It's not necessarily that, like, oh, we're not doing something, and, like, we're both secretly thinking about it all the time and resenting each other. Sometimes that is the case, but very often it's like, like, oh, well, we. This is just what we do. And I am not, like, taking the time to think about how or whether I would want it differently.

And not only is there a very high likelihood that you misunderstood each other at the beginning of the relationship, but tastes and preferences change over time, too. Like, so it's. That's why the ongoing part of this is so important. So, look, we know that talking about sex openly can be very scary because that's what we've all been taught to believe, that we shouldn't need to communicate it.

Be.

Shouldn't. It's a bad sign if we have to talk about it openly. But we promise you, not talking about it is going to produce scarier results. And that's the whole point of why we wrote Sex Talks. To guide you through these conversations in a practical, gentle, and fun way. So there's one final thing that we want to share with you, and that is that the ongoing success of Sex Talks relies on you.

Hey, that's actually a six thing.

It's our six. Our six Secret takeaway, sexy sex talks. Takeaway.

Yeah. I mean, really, honestly, books sell because the author of the book continues to encourage people to buy the book. We would love it if you could just write a book, throw it out there to the world, and then never have to market it again. Never have to talk about it again. And people are just like, I wouldn't.

Want to do that. I love talking about sex talks.

Okay, good, good. But no, I think a lot of authors. There's a lot of authors don't feel like they are natural salespeople or marketers. And don't they think, hey, my, you know, my specialty is writing. I'm really good at writing. Like, shouldn't the salespeople and the marketers be selling and marketing my book? But the reality is that at the end of the day, you are the best. You are best positioned to describe why your book is right for people. And so you know, we need. And that means what we need, need your help, too.

So we would be so grateful if you buy the book, rate it, and review it wherever you bought it. You can also leave a rating and a review on Amazon regardless of where you bought the book. Recommend it to friends, buy it as gifts. It's really great for, like, a bachelorette or bachelor party wedding gifts. And also recommend it to podcasts and influencers that you love, too.

Yeah. In this social media world that we live in, like, it really does matter to us what you think when you tell us, hey, like, you should check out this podcast or, you know, you should check out this product or you should read this book. Like, we take that really seriously because it's important to us what you all think. So, you know, it's the same is true for everybody out there. So the more you recommend us or our book to other people, other podcasts, other influencers that you love, like, they really will listen to you.

All right, well, if you don't have your own copy of Sex Talks, what are you doing already? Go buy the book. You can go to sex talks book.com we have links to all the major retailers right there on the page, and then come back to that page after you've bought the book. Down towards the bottom of the page, there's a little order form where you put in your order number and your information, and we will send you a free workbook to help you go even deeper into the book.

All right, well, that's it for today's episode of Pillow Talks. Thanks so much for listening. Join us again next week when we talk about. About how honest is too honest.