EPISODE 115: Grief And Sex: Loving Each Other Through A Loss

Foreign.

Hello and welcome to the Pillow Talks podcast. We're your hosts, Vanessa and Zander Marin. I'm a sex Therapist with over 20.

Years of experience and I'm just a regular dude. We share the ups and downs in our relationship while giving you step by step techniques for improving yours.

Make sure you subscribe for your weekly double date full of totally doable sex tips, practical relationships advice, hilarious and honest stories of what really goes on behind closed bedroom doors, and so much more. It's the sex education you wish you'd had. Thanks to Dipsea for supporting Pillow Talks. Get an extended 30 day free trial when you go to dipseastories.com pillow and thanks to Zocdoc for supporting pillow talks. Zocdoc is the only free app that lets you find and book doctors who are patient reviewed, take your insurance, are available when you need them, and treat a almost every condition under the sun. Go to Zocdoc.com pillow and download the Zocdoc app to sign up for free and book a top rated doctor. Today we are recording an episode that I have, to be honest, I have not been looking forward to recording. It's a very important episode. We have been asked to do this episode and now we've recently had a very personal experience of our own that we will be talking about today. But the topic is grief and sex. What do you do when you're in a period of grief and still, you know, in a relationship and maybe feeling the desire to be intimate, not feeling the desire to be intimate.

Maybe somewhere in between.

Yeah, somewhere in between. Or on different pages with your partner. And I think that this is just an incredibly complex time to navigate. Like grief in and of itself is intense and hard and sex in and of itself can be challenging and difficult to talk about. And then having, you know, two of them at the same time, it can just feel very overwhelming. So like I was saying, like, we know that this is an important episode and it's, you know, these are resources that most people are going to, you know, pretty much everyone is going to need at some point in their life or another.

Let's just say everyone.

Let's say everyone. So we're going to be talking in this episode about how to navigate your sex life when you're in a period of grief. We're going to be talking about our own story with grief and sex after recently losing our dog Winston. And we are going to be sharing tips and stories from our community about how they have dealt with sex during periods of grief.

And you might Hear a little extra emotion come out of us. Because this is. This, this is a very real experience that we just went through recently. And I mean, I think as. As. As soon as. As this happened, as soon as we lost our dog, we, you know, we knew that we would do this podcast episode where we talked about it. And you. We talked about waiting until we felt ready to do it. I mean, I don't know.

At this point, I don't feel ready.

I don't know. I don't know if there's ever. If there's ever a moment where you're like, okay, yeah, I'm ready. Like, but, yeah, like, what does ready mean? Like, oh, I can get through a podcast episode talking about it without crying. Like, I don't think that that's not, like, ready. That just means.

That's also not gonna happen.

Means, like, maybe you're just not processing the emotions properly. But yeah, just, you know, be. Be forewarned. This is a. The very real thing that happened to us. And we still, we still talk about Winston a lot. We cry about Winston a lot. And you might get a little bit of both of those things in this episode, but before, before you hear us crying, we are going, wow, what a transition. Yeah. But before you get any tears, let's do a review of the week. My sex therapist, Vanessa and Xander have quickly become one of my favorite weekly lessons. They have taught me so much about how to improve my life both inside and out of the bedroom, and have allowed me to step into a new partnership from a place of honesty and self love. Their knowledge has given me the opportunity to be intimate with new partners in ways that I never could have imagined before. And I feel so lucky to have stumbled upon them. Shout out at girls, gotta eat. I lovingly refer to the podcast as my sex therapist to my friends and partner, and look forward to the skills I will continue to develop while listening. Thank you guys for everything. And then it's the hands doing the heart emoji.

Thank you. This is a really sweet review. And I just, I love hearing the impact that we're able to have on your life and feeling this personal connection to us. Feeling like the podcast is your sex therapist.

Yeah, absolutely. And also, you know, I love. I love hearing people call out, like, you know, just, you know, being involved in, you know, our work or our podcast or our social or whatever, and, and hearing about how well that translated into getting into a new relationship or new relationships or whatever it is with people, you know, I think we hear so often from people are like, oh, well, I'm single. Like, is your book for me or is your podcast for me? And we're always so adamant, like, yeah, it doesn't matter if you're single or in a relationship. And very often we're. When you are single is actually the very best time to be working on this stuff because it's so easy, so much easier to just seamlessly, you know, weave this stuff into developing a relationship with someone versus, like kind of having to go back and be like, okay, yeah, we've been together for 10 years, but we gotta, you know, try doing stuff a new way. So I just love hearing from people that this is, you know, that this is what they have been able to get out of listening. So thank you.

And reviews are one of the best ways that you can support the podcast. If we've had a positive impact on your life. Leaving a review makes such a big difference. It helps all the podcast platforms, like, show our podcast to more new people. We get in front of more couples and individuals. We can help become their sex therapists as well. So to leave a review, what you do is go over to Apple Podcasts, go to the main Pillow talks page, scroll to the bottom, and you'll see the review section. You can leave a long, meaningful one, you can leave a short little one. Any review really helps. And we do a giveaway every week as our way of saying thank you. So if you hear your review read in an episode, you can email us@infomtherapy.com let us know the username that you left the review with, and you will get to choose from one of our masterclasses. Absolutely. For free. Just as our way of saying thank you. Okay, so I guess we should start off by just sharing a little bit of our story. So if you're not following us on Instagram, we shared the story there, but we haven't talked about it on the podcast yet. So we had two pugs and.

Oh, man.

Yeah.

Winston was 13. We adopted him.

Before we even got engaged. Right.

Yeah, it was.

Yeah.

So he's been with us a long.

Time, you know, basically our entire relationship.

He's older than our marriage and he was a really, really healthy and happy little 13 year old. People always thought that he was a puppy whenever they met him for the first time. He just looked so young and was really sassy and funny dog. He was starting to, like, slow down a little bit in his age and he was just becoming so sweet. Just really like such a sweet little old man, but very, very healthy and just to make a very long story.

Short, we discovered on a Friday that.

He had a nasal tumor that had.

Erupted.

And discovered that there's not really much that you can do for nasal tumors like this, especially at his age and without causing him a lot of, like, pain and suffering.

And especially. Yeah, having found out when we did, which was, you know, late. Yeah, very late, because. Yeah, they're also what we found out later. They're not really detectable in advance. Like, pretty much the only way to detect it is once it ruptures, and at that point, it's too late for anything.

So we had to make the decision to. To put him down, which was an impossible, impossible decision to make. It was so hard, but it really felt like the most respectful and kindest thing that we could do for him. And we put him down on a Monday. So it was really fast to go from, like. I mean, we thought we had years left with him.

Like, we had met a lot of.

Pugs that were, like, 19 and 20, and we were always joking that, like, he was gonna make it to 20. So we thought we had a long time left with him. And to go from, you know, just in a matter of three days, discovering that he was really sick to having to put him down was awful. And. And so we're feeling grief.

Yeah.

This is about six weeks ago, and it's been a roller coaster, but it's been. Yeah, the hardest.

One of the hardest things that we've.

Gone through, like, individually and together as a couple. So just take a moment to think about little Winston and what a joy he was and all the amazing experiences and love that he brought into our life. So let's dedicate this episode to him.

Yeah. This one's for you, little guy.

So we've been. Yeah, we really had to grapple with this ourselves. You know, it's our. It's the first major loss that we've experienced together as a couple, and, like.

One of the biggest losses that we've experience, like, as individuals.

I mean, especially working from home.

Yeah. I mean, for, like, how, you know, omnipresent he was in our lives. Like, you know, it was. You know, I found myself grappling with, like. You know, this feels. You know, like, in a way, this feels more intense than, like, losing anybody else in my. In my family. Because, you know, I've been with this dog every day, you know, all day. All day. Pretty much every day of my life, except when we're on vacation. So, you know, it's. It's, you know, obviously, you know, like, dogs and humans are different, but it's like, the reality is, like, this is someone you've been with every single day. So it's. It's just. Yeah, it's huge.

So I kept some notes. I kind of, like, kept a little bit of a grief journal because we.

Knew we were going to eventually do.

This episode, and so we're going to be sharing, you know, some of what we went through in this episode. I think for us, like, one of the main feelings that came up was just this, like, overwhelming sense of not knowing what to do. Like, felt like. I guess the better way of saying it is it felt like we had no foundation anymore. It was like our days were so unanchored and, like. Like, what do we do now? And I don't mean, like, in a. Like, even just dumb. Like, it was like, oh, okay, like, to eat or, like, we need to go to bed now. Like, even the most basic things, it was like we had to keep reminding ourselves what to do. And this huge sense of just, like, forgetting everything. Like, kind of forgetting how to be a human, forgetting how to go about the world, and even forgetting, like, you know, I'd catch myself in one room and be like, why am I in here? Like, what did I come over here for? So it was just this, like, incredible, incredibly unmoored feeling. And we progressed through, like, a series of stages. Obviously, like, you know, grief, it's a roller coaster. So we're gonna focus on this episode, like, specifically what came up around our relationship and intimacy between the two of us. And we kind of came up with three rough scenarios that we think most couples will go through when they're dealing with grief together. So the first scenario is that neither of you wants to have sex. Scenario number two is you're on different pages. And scenario number three is you both want to have sex. And we did break it down into these three scenarios, but I think it's likely that most couples will go through all three of them. We went through all three of them. And the main point that we really want to make in this episode is there is no right way to grieve. And, you know, going off of that, like, there's no right way to approach intimacy during a period of grief. Like, it really is all about just being with what's present in the moment and recognizing, like, there are no wrong feelings or reactions or responses to it. It's just such a monumental experience, and we really want to honor, like, the uniqueness of. Of everybody's experience. While, you know, of course, also trying to, like, find some way of making sense of it and giving you, you know, some general tips. So the first scenario, we put in this specific order, because this is what we went through first. Like, when we first lost Winston, it was like, I don't even understand how to think about sex. Like, it is the last thing on my mind. I had zero interest in it whatsoever. And both of us. You know, both of us felt that way.

Yeah. I mean, and initially, I mean, just sort of given the way the schedule of how everything happened, you know, like we said, we found out on Friday, basically, I think on Saturday, we made the decision that we were going to put him down. And then, you know, we're able to have that appointment scheduled to do that on Monday. So we got, like, a whole weekend with him. And part of, you know, what was going on with him was, you know, he needed to be medicated, he needed to be kept really calm. So it was basically like there was no. There was no option for us to have sex.

Oh, yeah.

While he was still alive. I mean, it was just. It was just gonna happen. You know, we were completely focused on. Sorry, I'm struggling. We were just totally focused on being present with him. And so, you know, where we started was like, well, one, we're not even thinking about sex. It wouldn't even be possible if we. If we wanted to. Like, he. You know, as long as he's alive, he can never be alone. And so, you know, we were both very clearly on that page. We were very focused on just getting through to that Monday, getting through, putting him down. I'm really proud of how he showed up like that. And then, like, Vanessa said, as soon as he was gone, it was like, oh, my God, like, what do we do?

So I think, like, this is probably the most understandable reaction. I think a lot of people, like, yeah, when the grief is so raw and intense, like, it is very understandable to just have no interest in sex, no, like, desire for it. It's just a very tough time to, like, feel turned on and super horny and even, like, having it in your mind at all. So if you through a period of not wanting sex at all, that's normal.

Yeah. Or not wanting. Not wanting, like, anything. Like, I think that's. That's very normal.

Yeah. I mean, so one thing that. That we did is, like, you know, we continued, like, touching and holding each other, and that felt, like, very comforting. And I do think that that's important to recognize. Like, sometimes we think of. We think of physical intimacy as, like, just Sex and.

Or any type of physical intimacy, if you have it, then it's got to lead to sex.

Yeah. And it's not. You know, there are so many ways to be physically intimate with each other. And so, you know, like, physical touch for us, like, felt very comforting. Just being able to, like, hold each other and, you know, hold hands and snuggle and be close. If you don't even want that, that's understandable and totally fine too. But I just think it's. It's valuable for people to think of sex as beyond just, you know, just having sex with each other. So our main advice about navigating this scenario is to talk openly about sex and physical intimacy. I think a lot of us have this tendency of, you know, when we're not having sex. And even if grief is not involved at all, like, if we're not having sex, we don't want to acknowledge it. And it becomes this elephant in the room. Like, you both know what's going on, but nobody wants to talk about it. It feels, like, too awkward to talk about it, but then you're not talking about it. It feels even more awkward to not be talking about it.

Or if you're not having sex or not wanting to have sex because of. Because of some, you know, big external reason, like whether that's grief or job loss or, you know, some other whatever, like some other big thing going on. I think it also can be really easy to just assume, like, oh, well, obviously sex is not on the table. Obviously my partner knows that I shouldn't need to acknowledge it. Like, it should just be clear. And I think that, you know, that, you know, whether it's. Whether it's that or whether it's like, oh, I don't want to acknowledge the sex thing because then I have to admit to myself that I don't want it. It's still so important to talk. I think it's just, you know, anytime we're. Anytime we find ourselves making the assumption of, like, oh, well, I shouldn't have to talk about that because it's obvious, or I shouldn't have to talk about that because then I'm going to feel like a certain way about it, that's a good sign that probably you should lean into the discomfort of talking about it because there's actually probably some closeness to be gained by doing that.

So for us, I don't think we, like, we didn't really talk at all about sex for, like, the first week. So I'm not saying you have to, like, you know, right in the immediate aftermath of the grief, like, hey, let's make sure we're talking about sex. Like, it's fine to have there be a little period of time, but, you know, we started, like, just with basic acknowledgment of, like, hey, I know we're not having sex. It seems like we're probably on the same page about it. Right? You know, just. Just having that simple sentence, like, was very helpful for both of us. So at a certain period of time, like, whenever you feel like you're out of, you know, the most intense period of it, I think just having that, like, acknowledgment can go a long way.

And I think, like, also, you know, I don't. I don't know if I ever explicitly said this or how we talked about it, but, like, just talking, like, talking about, like, hey, it's, you know, it's really nice being able to have, you know, a lot of physical intimacy, like hugs and cuddles or kisses or whatever. And, you know, I think, like, I was also very clear, like, hey, this feels really important to me. This feels really good to me. And I also. I also understand if, you know, you are in a place or if you get into a place where that doesn't feel good. So, like, let's keep talking about it. Let's keep checking in with how we're doing. I mean, I think that's the other trap that a lot of people can fall into is that, like, maybe you do have a bit of a conversation or an acknowledgement, you know, on, you know, at some point in time of like, okay, yeah, like, we're not, like, I'm not really open to having sex right now. And then. But. And then feel like, okay, well, we said that we had that conversation now. Now we just don't talk about it anymore. And I think the reality is that, like, through something really big, like a big roller coaster type of thing, like grief, it's so important to keep checking in because the way you feel does change on a daily basis. And so I think that's just a really important way to help, you know, you and your partner feel seen by each other. It's just like, hey, how are you feeling today? You know, how is it feeling, you know, me giving you hugs? Like, is that feeling okay? Just keep continuing to check in rather than just assuming, okay, we talked about this once. So therefore, I just keep doing this, or I don't do that or something like that, because then it can just kind of feel like you're just getting locked into a certain pattern and, you know, that might not end up feeling good for one or both partners after a while.

Well, I think one of the best things that we did for navigating the grief process overall is we just kept checking in with each other, like, multiple times a day. Like, how are you feeling right now? What are you thinking? What's coming up for you? And so, you know, we were in that habit of checking in with each other. So then it felt easy to slide a bit about, like, sex and intimacy and connection into that.

Yeah, I mean, I think it was a lot of us just talking about the importance for both of us of just of wanting to be on the same team throughout this whole experience. I think that was something we talked about a lot from the very beginning, was it was like, look, it is so much more important to me and, you know, to. And I assume for Vanessa, it was so much more important that we are on the same team about this than it being like, oh, I need to have exactly what I want right now, or she needs to be able to get exactly what she wants right in whatever moment. And it was. It was like, hey, like, I'm very open to being flexible or, you know, or whatever, putting off any, you know, certain types of physical intimacy or whatever, because ultimately, like, what feels most important is that we feel, like, connected and on the same team throughout the whole process. So I think that was a really great thing that we just kept reiterating and talking about from the very beginning.

So here are a few stories from our community about people who were in this scenario. One person said, after my brother died, it took a month before we even had any desire.

Someone else said, try having skin to skin contact with no expectations, just holding each other close.

And somebody else said, we lost three dogs in four months. Oh, my God. Sending so much compassion to you. That is so hard. They said, zero physical intimacy for a while. Have compassion and patience for yourselves. It will get better. Before we go any further, let's tell you a little bit more about Dipsea. So first of all, I want to start off by saying the name a few times. It's Dipsea D I P S E A. Because we have been getting so many dms from people saying, hey, what was that app that you were talking about with the sexy stories? I can't find it. I want to know what it is. I keep thinking about it. So it's. It is dipsea D I P S E A. Dipsea is an app full of hundreds of short, sexy audio stories designed by women for women. They bring scenarios to life with immersive soundscapes and realistic characters so you can discover stories about second chance romances, adventurous vacation flings, and hot and heavy hookups. And I really like Dipsea because I think it is such a simple way to get turned on. Most of us want to feel more desire. We feel disconnected from our desire. And so just this simple act of listening to some sexy stories straight into your ear, it's like a sexy secret little podcast that you're listening to. Like that can increase your desire. And especially knowing that Dipsea is giving you a free 30 day trial to try it out. Like, I just feel like there's nothing to lose. I mean, the worst thing that can happen is you check it out, you're like, okay, this app is cool, but it's not really like doing anything. For me in particular, you haven't lost anything, but you might discover like, oh, I'm actually very, very turned on by this. So we think it's such a great app. We also just really appreciate their values. They're focused on radical inclusivity. They have stories for straight and queer listeners. 56% of the stories are voice acted by people of color. So they're just a great company. So for listeners of Pillow Talks, Dipsea is offering an extended 30 day free trial. When you go to dipseastories.com pillow that's 30 days of full access for free. When you go to dipsetries.com pillow dipseastories.com pillow I think we have all had the experience of being on the hunt for a new doctor, really wanting to find a good one that you can trust and having such a frickin hard time with it. Like it's impossible to find people to make appointments. Sometimes people aren't available, they're not taking new patients. You have to call into the office instead of being able to book online, which I know a lot of people hate. So it can just be a really frustrating experience. And for so many of us, we already feel some anxiety about finding medical advice and treatment. So the fact that it's hard to find somebody to work with can just make it so much more complicated. So that is why we are really excited to have ZocDoc as an ongoing sponsor of pillow talks. ZocDoc is a free app where you can find amazing doctors and book appointments online. We're talking about booking appointments with thousands of top rated patient reviewed doctors and specialists. You can filter specifically for ones that take your insurance, are located near you and treat almost any condition under the sun. The average wait time to see see a doctor booked on Zocdoc is between 24 to 48 hours. That's it. You can literally even score same day appointments. So once you find the doctor you want, you can look through all the verified reviews from actual patients, book with them immediately with just a few taps in the app. No more waiting awkwardly on hold, no having to make all these calls. So it's just a great app that makes a stressful process so much easier. So you can go to Zocdoc.com pillow and download the Zocdoc app for free. Free. Then find and book a top rated doctor today. Many are available within 24 hours. That's z o c d o c.com pillow zocdoc.com pillow okay, so let's move into scenario number two, which was basically what we fell into ourselves, which is being on different pages. So I think Xander was more like open to sex sooner than I was. And so what you started asking was, and I think this, this is a really great question you asked me, like, do you think you might be open to having sex tomorrow? So I really liked phrasing it that way because there was a lot of space in that question. It wasn't so it wasn't like initiating sex in the moment. Like, I'm horny. Do you want to go have sex right now?

Yeah. Because honestly, for me and that, that felt like too much for me. Even in that moment. It was like, you know, I was feeling like, okay, yeah, I, I, I, I'm feeling a little bit of, let's be honest, I wasn't feeling a ton of desire. I was feeling a little bit of desire. And I was also feeling like, you know, just wanting to have that, that closeness that I knew that I would feel with Vanessa, you know, when we, you know, when we are having sex more regularly. And so, you know, sort of wanting that and, you know, and I think also just sort of wanting to, to see sort of a path back to, back to some amount of normalcy, because I think that's another big part of it, is that it just kind of, it feels so easy to get sucked down into, into the grief or the, I don't know, that feeling of listlessness. Yeah, in a way. And it was like, you know, this, this feels like it's sort of the path back to, you know, just back to our life feeling more the way that it used to. But it did feel like, God, yeah. Like the prospect of just kind of like initiating sex in the way That I typically would just felt like. That felt like I. I couldn't do that. So I, you know, it was like, okay, yeah, I'm not even up to just initiate right now. I think even if Vanessa was like, oh, yeah, let's do it right now, I probably would have been like, oh, actually, just kidding. Maybe tomorrow. Like I said, said so. You know, that was sort of what was going on for me, was that it was like. It was like, I'm curious if she's open to it. And if she is, that also gives me some time to get myself psyched up between today and tomorrow, too.

Yeah. So, like, I liked that you said tomorrow because it gave me, like, time to think about it and then, you know, gave me kind of, like, time to get myself in the right headspace and prepare. But you also said, like, do you think you might be open? And like, those, you know, both of those words also created a lot of space where, like, I didn't have to say, like, yeah, I'm wildly horny right now, or, like, yeah, I promise you I'm going to be horny tomorrow.

Yeah. And also notice how I. What I didn't say is, I'm ready to have sex. Are you? Are you ready tomorrow? Or like. Or even, like, I'm ready to have sex. Are you. Might you be ready tomorrow? I left space, too, for me, because that was very real for me that I didn't know if I was going to be, like, a hundred percent ready to go tomorrow either. It was like, like, would be. We. Would we be open to trying possibly tomorrow? And I think that was really important because I was like, yeah, I was like, look, I want to do this. I. But I also can't guarantee that, like, I'm actually gonna feel up to it at that point in time. It was like, I would like to feel up to it. So it's sort of like stating my intention, my desire.

Well, yeah. And I think, like, this is one of the. What you said is, like, also one of the most important things that most people don't realize, which is that horniness is not the one and only reason to have sex.

Yeah.

I think so many of us have it in our heads that, like, we're supposed to be super turned on and super hot and heavy, and we're supposed to want it so bad. Like, and if we don't, then we shouldn't have sex. And that's why so many of us, like, feel like we have low desire or no desire. We feel like something is broken with us or wrong with us that we don't feel this, like, passionate, intense lust, like this need. But, like, sure, that's fun when that happens. But even outside of periods of grief, like, horniness is not the only reason to have sex. Like, sex can bring us so many other things. Like that closeness and that connection that Xander was talking about. A sense of normalcy, a sense of, like, prioritizing each other and carving out this special, like, time and space for ourselves. It can be a way to, like, to play with each other, to be creative. It's a form of self expression. So I think it's, you know, this is actually something that we talk about in our course, the Art of Initiation, because we think this gets in the way, you know, all the time with couples where, you know, you're just waiting around to feel horny, or your partner approaches you and asks you to have sex and you're like, well, I'm not horny right now, so I'm a no. Like, if we took horniness out of the equation and thinked about, thinked about, oh, my God. Thought about other reasons for wanting to connect, like, I think sex would be so much better.

And also, like, for the person initiating, I think this is the other hang up. Is that just because you are initiating sex or even asking, like, if your partner is open to sex, that doesn't need to be a guarantee that. That, like, you can deliver. I think that's the other hang up. And I've had that. I used to have that hang up so much of like, oh, well, I. I don't want to initiate sex unless I feel like I'm a hundred percent capable of getting hard and staying hard and, you know, like, giving Vanessa everything that she needs. Like, with only my penis.

Yeah.

And. And I think that that can be another huge hang up in a moment like this where. Yeah, I mean, like, I was not. Yeah, I wasn't feeling like the sexiest person at all. I was like, I would really like to be able to have sex. I would really, you know, I would really like to be able to get hard and stay hard, you know, through to completion. And, you know, of course that's how I would like for the sex to look. I don't know if it actually is. I don't know. And I definitely can't guarantee that. But the only way for me to get to a point where I can start feeling more comfortable with that is to try.

So what happened in our story is that Xander asked me that question and I was just a no. But what I responded to him was, can you ask me that again tomorrow?

Which was very nice to hear, rather than just, no, no, without anything else. Because then, you know. Because, you know, if you don't hear anything else, then. Then, you know, I would have been like, okay, well, is that, like, a no for a long time? Like, what does it mean? That's when you. Your brain starts going a million miles an hour and trying to read into it assumptions or, oh, well, what was her tone? What was her body language? What does it mean? Blah, blah, blah. So it's so helpful that Vanessa, you know, said something else about, hey, like, let's check in about it tomorrow. Because then I was like, okay, great. I can completely respect that. You know, I myself not even 100% sure that I would for sure want it tomorrow. So checking in again tomorrow sounds great.

So then what happened was I said yes at one specific time. Then tomorrow came. We got started, like, trying to be intimate, and I just.

We were just kissing.

Yeah, I just, like, knew, like, I can't do this right now. Like, it just. It doesn't feel right, and I don't think I can show up in the way that I want to. And so I stopped. I stopped us, and I said, like, I just don't think I can right now. And I. You know, I. It was obviously, like, awkward and jarring, but I think that we both did a really good job of just, like, navigating, like. Like, yeah, this sucks to have, like, kind of gotten started and to then not be finishing, but you were really understanding and just like, yeah, I get it. This is hard. Like, why don't we try again tomorrow or, you know, the next day or whatever it is.

Yeah. And I could also pick up on that energy. On that energy from you. Like, I. You know, I could tell as we were kissing that it was, you know, that, you know, that you were not super. You know, you were not super into it. And it was like, yeah, that didn't feel. Yeah, that didn't feel good to me. Like, oh, yeah, this doesn't. This doesn't feel like, you know, this doesn't feel like we're going in the right direction here. So, you know, it's. It wasn't like, I, you know, I didn't come away feeling frustrated. I was like, yeah, that. That wasn't really, you know, that. That was clearly not the right moment. We weren't really feeling it together, like, you know, because, yeah, I want. You know, it was not like, I just want to have sex regardless of how Vanessa feels or how she Responds like, well, you were.

Yeah, you were wanting to feel connected. And it was obvious that, like, I wasn't capable of feeling. Of being connected in that way. And then just, you know, full transparency here. Like, we tried again. I don't know if it was the next day or a couple of days later, but we tried again, and we had another, like, kind of weird situation where we were both wanting very different vibes.

Energies.

Energies during sex. And so I had to kind of stop again and say, like, hey, I think I'm wanting the energy to be more like this right now. And you were totally fine with that. And we, you know, adjusted and continued on, and it was fine.

And it was awkward. It was. It was fine, and it was awkward. You know, honest. Yeah, like, I was. You know, I. Yeah, I totally heard Vanessa, and I was like, okay, I. I totally get that. And I can. For me, it was like, yeah, it's more important to me that we. That we just try our best to. To do this and get it done, so to speak, then for it to be like, oh, yeah, I need it to be the exact vibe or the exact energy that I was going for. And, like, I mean, the reality was it was. It was definitely some very awkward sex. It was not great sex.

Well, we have a whole thing about, like, you know, when you've had any sort of dry spell. I think a lot of us put a lot of pressure on ourselves that, like, you know, we want that first time to be amazing and not awkward, and we want it to feel natural, and there is just no way to do that.

And I was like, I had no expectations.

Yeah. So we both went into it knowing and taking the pressure off of ourselves. Like, there's no perfectionism here. And, like, the expectations are so low. Like, this is not going to be the greatest sex of our lives. Like, this is gonna be a. Just getting back into the saddle. And I. Yeah. Like, I want to be careful here because I think there's so much advice out there telling people, like, just have sex. Like, just do it. It'll be fine. And that is not what I'm saying. Like, we never want anybody pushing or forcing themselves to have sex when they truly do not want it. But I think that there's a sub difference here between, like, having lower expectations and recognizing, like, that's normal and okay. And so it's. It's okay to have a sort of, like, you know what? I just. I want us to, like, get back to a little sense of normalcy. I want to get this first time, like, out of the way. You know, neither one of us were, like, pressuring ourselves or feeling like we didn't have a choice or feeling, like, guilty if we did or didn't. Like, it was just, you know, just allowing it to be like, it's gonna feel a little bit awkward, but we want that closeness and that connection that we know we're gonna feel when we finish, that sense of normalcy, that sense of, like, momentum where, you know, then the next time is not gonna feel as awkward. So that was what we navigated together. But I think one of the main things that can come up when you're on different pages like this is it's just. It's very easy for guilt to come into the picture. Like, if you are wanting sex but your partner doesn't, it's easy to feel guilty, like, oh, is something wrong with me? And we'll talk about this more with the third scenario.

And also for the partner.

Yes, for the partner.

It's like, is something wrong with me for wanting it?

Yeah, but I don't want it.

I definitely grappled with that a little. Not, like, too seriously, but just, like, you know. Yeah. Of course, when I checked in with Vanessa and, you know, asked if she would be open to it possibly tomorrow, and she said no, then there's the part of me that goes, oh, well, what does it mean that I'm open to it? Oh, am I, like, am I progressing through this grief faster? Or am I. Or am I doing a worse job? I'm, like, not allowing myself really to feel it, and I'm using sex as an escape or, you know, what. Like, what is it, like, why is it for me that I wanted. And maybe should I be different or whatever? Especially because, I mean, in our case, like, just, you know, the. I kind of said this before, but, like, the way that the trajectory of this whole thing was. Was, like, you know, for the weekend, when Winston was alive, Vanessa and I were just so together on. On everything in lockstep. Like, you know, we have made the decision of what to do, and it was just a hundred percent of what we were doing was all about Winston and being with Winston. And then it was like. And then it was like, oh, he's gone. And now we're, like, kind of adrift on our separate trajectories of processing this.

Yeah.

And dealing with it. And, you know, and so it was like. It's a weird experience of, like, oh, we're so together in everything. And then, you know, a moment passes, and then all of a sudden, it's like, you can't. You can't be, you know, after, you know, once you're actually into the grief process, beyond the crisis situation, it's like, no, you can't be 100 on the same page because you're each. You know, it's. It's internal emotional stuff that you're dealing with rather than an external situation that you're dealing with. And so it's just like, oh, well, God, are we. How much further apart are we than I realized? So, yeah, I think that's just. That's a challenging thing to deal with.

Yeah. And so I think that, you know, our main advice in all of these scenarios really is the same, like, being willing to talk about it even though it's hard and can feel awkward. And so I think the way that you talked about it with me was. Was so great, like, talking about wanting to feel that sense of connection and of normalcy. It was like a good reminder, you know, so if you're in Xander's position, like, reminding your partner, like, this is not just about me wanting to have an orgasm or, like, me being horny, like, I want to feel close to you. I want to feel connected to you. I want to be, like, in the vulnerability of sex, like, with you. So sharing those other reasons with them really, like, taking the pressure off and, like, you know, not having these expectations of what that sex is going to be like, creating a lot of space for your partner and when also just.

Being in recognition that, you know, that those are. That sex is not the only way to get all of those things as well. I think that, you know, I was. You know, I was trying to be really careful and saying, you know, these are. These are some of the reasons why I would love to have sex with you. And. And if you're not open to having sex yet, like. Like, I'm also very open to trying to get these other things in other ways as well. Like, well, you know, what else can we do right now to feel close or, you know, what else can we do to laugh or whatever. Whatever it is. Whatever it is that you're looking for. So I think that that's important if you're the person that is more up for it than the other partner is recognizing. Yeah, you can get all of these things that you're looking for in a variety of ways and explaining to your partner, these are the reasons why I want to have sex with you. And I'm also open to discussing other ways to get some of these things, you know, with you. If you're open to it.

Yeah. So other types of connection, again, like non sexual physical intimacy can be really valuable here. Of course, masturbating is always a solution. Like, sometimes we do just want a little bit of a release. You've got hands or toys that can take care of that. And there's also even like some gray area here. Like, we really like, like partnered masturbation. Like, maybe one partner is keeping the other company, you know, giving them little kisses or touches or just being there, you know, while they masturbate. So those are some options, you know, for us. Fortunately, this period of being on different pages was, like, very quick and we were able to navigate it well. But I also just want to acknowledge, like, for some couples, this can go on for a prolonged period of time. Like you might have weeks, months, years, where you're not, you know, feeling interested in being intimate or where you're feeling like you're on very different pages. It definitely can get to the point where couples therapy, you know, would be a really valuable option for you guys to pursue. So we just wanted to lay that out as well. But here are some stories from our community of other people who went through this stage. When I lost my mom in the weeks leading up to it, I had no desire for intimacy. My partner was so supportive and gave me the space and time, time. When I was ready. It was easier to get back into it because of how supportive they had been with no pressure.

Sex was the last thing on my mind. I couldn't think about feeling good, but it was the first thing on my partner's mind because they wanted to feel close.

My boyfriend lost his mom in the first six months of us living together. It was a lot of solo play and being okay with going with it when he was initiating and getting into it during the. We also found other forms of intimacy. Cuddles, kisses, long hugs, etc. All right, and let's get into the third scenario, which is when you both want to have sex. So we just wanted to include this one because I think the main thing that can come up if you're in this scenario is this sense of guilt. Like, it feels weird to want to have sex while you're grieving. I mean, you know, once we both passed into this phase, like, at the beginning of this phase, like, it felt very strange. Like, it felt like the sense of, like, what are. Like, nothing in life felt normal. And sex was no exception. It's just like, how can we be doing this while, you know, we're missing him so much? Yeah. And it just feels like you feel kind of guilty for, like, how can I be experiencing so much, like, pleasure or joy or connection when I'm also, like, so sad and mourning and grieving. So I think the main, you know, the main advice that we wanted to give here is just, like, it's normal and it's okay to still feel the desire for connection, to still feel horny, to still, like, want to have an orgasm even in the midst of just tremendous grief. You know, Xander and I both have a tattoo on our arms of the word. And because it's been the most, like, powerful life and relationship wisdom that we have learned this idea that two things can be true at the same time.

Even if they, at least on the surface, seem like they conflict with each other.

Yeah. Like, it is okay to be grieving, to be so sad and to want connection, to want pleasure, to want joy. Like, both of those things can exist within you at the same time. And there are also benefits to having sex while you're experiencing grief. Like, it can bring pleasure and joy. It can be a way of, like, being present and connected in the moment. It can be, like, a temporary easing of the grief. Like, I think, you know, like I said earlier, like, there's no one right way to grieve. Like, you don't have to be so sad every single moment in order to, like, honor your loss or your loved one that has passed. Like, it's okay to have moments of. Of joy. And I think even, like, outside of sex, like, you know, we had other moments of, like, you know, just, like, laughing about something or feeling happy about something, and you feel this little pang of guilt of, like, oh, should I not be feeling it right now? But, like, that's. It's okay to feel those things at the same time. And that's, you know, that's even a part of the grieving process. Like, we.

Yeah, I think that's healthy.

We talked so much about, like, you know, funny memories about him and happy memories with him, and that was so, like, so valuable. So, like, grief doesn't mean. Grief doesn't need to mean being sad all the time.

Yeah, I think that. Yeah, it's. It's easy for us to be like, oh, I'm in a period of grieving. I'm supposed to be sad. I'm supposed to do this. I'm supposed to not want sex. And as soon as we start telling ourselves, oh, like, I. This is how I'm supposed to feel, or this is what I'm supposed to do, I mean, that just that just gets kind of problematic. But, like, I mean, ultimately, you can just kind of push yourself into almost like an inaction, because then it's like you're like, okay, well, I'm not gonna do these things that I don't think I'm supposed to do. But then, you know, if. If, like, the sadness or whatever, whatever the emotion is that you think you're supposed to be feeling isn't there right then, then you're, like, waiting around like, okay, well, God, okay, am I supposed to be crying now? Am I supposed to. Supposed to be feeling that sadness? And I think the reality with grief or being in the grieving process is, like, all those feelings will come naturally, and it will be a roller coaster. And that sucks. And that's life. Like, life is feeling all those emotions. And honestly, the quickest way to process grief and to process any kind of tough situation like this is. I think it's just. It's getting on that roller coaster and just being in acceptance of the fact, hey, I'm on a roller coaster. Some of the times we're going to be going slow, we're going to be going up the thing, and then some of the times we're going to be going fast. And it's going to be fun. It's going to be sickening. It's going to be about fun.

But.

But, yeah, I mean, like, there's going to be little bursts of joy and moments of laughter and fun and maybe even pleasure. And there's going to be a lot of sad moments. There's going to be a lot of blah moments, and in between moments. But it's just like. It's. It's just. You know, what I found for myself was it was just like, hey, I haven't. I haven't experienced this in a long time. Let's just see where this goes. Let's see where this goes. And there's going to be moments where I'm going to be really sad. And in those moments, I'm okay with being really sad. I'm just going to feel that. I'm going to feel the sorrow. I'm going to, you know, really feel missing. Feel those. Yeah. Not missing. Of Winston. That love. And there's going to be moments of joy. And I can be appreciative of those moments. Like me. Grateful for those moments, because those are the moments that, you know, help get you through a tough time.

Yeah. So, of course, like, if you're using sex as a way to, like, numb your grief or as, like, escape like a. You know, consistent escape and you're not processing your emotions in any other way. Like, of course that can be a problem, but. But, you know, in general, if it's like, if you're both on the same page about wanting to have sex, that is a gift, and there's no reason to force yourselves not to. And, like, I don't want to say don't feel guilty because, like, we felt guilt, too, but I just want to acknowledge, like, you don't have to feel guilty, like, for wanting to experience some pleasure and joy or just know, or.

Just know, like, it is okay to feel some guilt. That's. That's natural. I'm going through. I'm going to feel a whole lot of things throughout this whole process. It's normal to feel a little bit of guilt, but I can also have some grace for myself.

Yeah. And here are some stories from our community. My husband and I have experienced multiple losses in the course of our marriage. My best friend, dad, grandfather, and grandmother all passed. We started dating after reconnecting when two close friends died in a car wreck. Grief is woven into the story of our relationship. Sitting with and loving one another in grief is more intimate to me than sex. Him making me grits in the middle of the night when I couldn't sleep. Us cuddling in the same bed when our friends passed. Creating a sheet for it when my best friend died because she loved them. These things kept us close. The sex came naturally out of that intimacy.

Sex during grief is a blessed distraction and connection. Sometimes zero interest, other times.

All right. Well, we did it.

We did it. Babe.

Wraps up our episode on navigating sex and intimacy during periods of grief.

Yeah. I'm proud of us.

I am, too.

No, it was. It's. It's challenging. It's challenging to talk about, but I think it's. It's an important topic to talk about because as much as, as easy as it is to feel like, oh, everything is good in life. Things are. Everything is, like, going right. Like, grief happens. It's an. It's an unavoidable part of life. And if you're in a relationship long enough, you are going to experience it and it is going to impact your sex life. So it's. Yeah, it's not a matter of if, it's a matter of when. And so I think just, just. And, you know, I'll be honest, like, I, I definitely did fall into the trap of, like, oh, I'm not going to have to worry about this for a while. Like, Winston's going to live for at least a number of more years. And, you know, and I think that, you know, ultimately, like, I'm. I'm grateful for this experience and that, you know, it's. It's a reminder. It's a reminder to be grateful for, like, every good moment that you have because. Because, you know, you don't. You don't know how many, you know, more they're going to be or how long it's going to be or whatever. And, you know, it also helped me be really grateful for the incredible sex life that we do have, because you don't know what's going to happen tomorrow and if, you know, the, you know, that great sex life is going to, you know, be great tomorrow as well. So, you know, I feel like this experience gave me a lot of really good perspectives on things, gratitude for things. And also, you know, not. Not that, like, I feel better prepared for something like this in the future because you can never be fully prepared. But, you know, I guess it's. It is comforting to know that we've. We've been through this situation and we've been through it. We've been able to feel close with each other throughout and that you can get back into the saddle. It is possible. Life does go on, even though it feels hard sometimes. Well, that's all for today's episode of Pillow Talks. Thank you so much for listening. Join us again next week when we talk about what to do if your partner is always on their phone. This episode is dedicated in loving memory of Winston.