EPISODE 117: So You Think You Know Us? Answering Your Assumptions!

Hello and welcome to the Pillow Talks podcast. We're your hosts, Vanessa and Zander Marin. I'm a sex Therapist with over 20.

Years of experience and I'm just a regular dude. We share the ups and downs in our relationship while giving you step by step techniques for improving yours.

Make sure you subscribe for your weekly double date full of totally doable sex tips, practical relationships advice, hilarious and honest stories of what really goes on behind closed bedroom doors, and so much more. It's the sex education you wish you'd had. Thanks to Babbel for supporting pillow talks. Babbel's 15 minute lessons make it the perfect way to really learn a new language on the go. Here's a special limited time deal for our listeners to get you started. Right now, get 55% off your Babbel subscription, but only for our listeners@babbel.com pillow we'd like to thank Cozy Earth for supporting Pillow Talks. Cozy Earth provided an exclusive offer for our Pillow Talks listeners today. Get up to 35% off site wide when you use code. Pillow talks@cozyearth.com Today's episode is all about making an ass out of you and me.

Oh, butts. We're talking about butt stuff or ass. Every aspect of your assumptions.

We're talking about assumptions. You guys have probably seen somebody else on Instagram do this. They put up a little question box. It's like, tell me something that you assume about me and I'll tell you if it's true or false. But we thought that was pretty fun and we decided, let's make a podcast episode.

I mean, we want to say more than just true or like, it's kind of boring to be like, true or false? Like, we want to actually talk about it. Yeah.

So we put up a question box on Instagram that said, tell us something that you assume about us, something you suspect about us, or something that you're just curious about about us. And the responses that we got were very entertaining. Lots of funny ones, lots of interesting ones, a couple of borderline insulting ones.

Yeah, they were. And I mean, we were kind of asking for it. Asking for assumptions.

We were asking for it for sure. And my personal favor, somebody was very curious about the size of your wee.

Wee.

And I never want to hear the word wee ever again.

You know what? I'm just going to play dumb and say, I don't know what a wee is. So sorry, you're not getting an answer to that question.

So let's get into an entire episode about assumptions.

You know what Let me kick us off. I am going to assume that, one, we have a review of the week, which we do. I'm going to assume that we have a glowing review of the week and that someone will compliment me in it.

This is not much of an assumption to make, but sure.

Let's see. All right. Incredible and incredibly honest. All right, we're going in the right direction here. Loving it. A podcast about sex that's really not about sex at all. Well, sometimes it totally is. I cannot stress enough how much I appreciated finding this podcast, and I listened and read their book as a way to take care of my side of the street, as Vanessa likes to say. And even just that has helped tremendously in improving the quality of our communication and connection. I'm so excited to summarize what I learned and invite my wife into this experience too. Subscribe now. You'll be so glad you did. Also, as a fellow regular dude, I love Xander's presence here. Makes me feel so much more comfortable and invited.

Oh, what a delightful review. And thank you. Thank you for encouraging people to subscribe. There are a number of ways that you can support the podcast that are super easy, absolutely free, and make a huge difference. Subscribing is one of them. All that it does, you literally just press the tiny little button that either says subscribe or follow. And all that it will do is whenever we drop a new episode, it'll just put that in the top for you so you can, you know, make sure you don't ever miss a new episode. But for us, it helps so much to get an accurate idea of how many people are downloading each episode. We base a lot of our content strategy on what episodes are most popular. So the following and subscribing makes a big difference. Reviews are huge. They make the podcast look more legit. They it's more likely that Spotify and Apple will promote the podcast like put it on the top of their pages. It gets in front of more people. So that's why we do this review giveaway every week. What you do is go to the main Pillow Talks podcast page on Apple, scroll to the bottom, you'll see the review section there. Leave us a little review. And if you hear your review read on the podcast, you can email us@infomtherapy.com let us know the username that you left the review with, and you will get to choose from one of our masterclasses absolutely for free. And if you really just want to go all in sharing the episode, especially with Spotify, because Spotify does a, like, most shared episode thing. That's huge. So if you share it to your story, share it in a text, like, text it to your partner, any of those three things is such a huge, huge favor to us. All right, well, let's jump right into it. This one made me laugh. I assume one of you secretly wants to quit the podcast.

Wow, we are just getting called out from the beginning. I mean, who wants to secretly quit the podcast?

Do you want to secretly quit the podcast?

Well, here's what I want to know. The person who asked that question. Are they listening to the podcast? Do they have a suspicion that one of us doesn't have our heart fully in it?

That's how I read this.

Who's phoning it in?

Who's phoning it in? Let us know. Come over to Instagram.

Yeah, let us know. DM us.

Vanessa and Xander.

DM Vanessa and let her know she's dialing it in.

So tell me, do you want to secretly quit the podcast?

No. I love the podcast.

I love the podcast too. Okay, next up, I assume your sex life is 100% perfect. This was actually the most common response that came through. And there were some variations on it as well. Like, I assume Vanessa feels like because she's a sex therapist, she has to have a very active sex life. Or also there were, like, variations more about our relationship overall. Like, I assume you feel the pressure to be the perfect, happy couple. So general vibes of, like, our relationship, our sex life are perfect, and we feel pressure that it has to be perfect.

No, we 100% do not have a perfect sex life. We have a great sex life. I love our sex life. But here's the thing. We've worked very long and hard to create deep and deep. We have gone deep to. To build that great sex life. There's no such thing as a perfect sex life. We have a sex life that I think works really well for both of us. And I love. And I love that. But I think if. If we were to describe the nitty ditty. Nitty gritty.

Gritty.

The nitty ditty. The nitty gritty details of our sex life. And, like, kind of, you know, if we were to, like, put it all. If you could put it all on a piece of paper and share, like, this is what my sex life looks like, for some of you, that would probably look great. And for some of you, that might not be exactly what you're looking for. It might not be what you're looking for at all. Because the reality is, we're all looking for different things. There's not a one size fits all. Like, ah, this is the perfect sex life. It's about, you know, the. The perfect sex life is just whatever, sex life sounds great to both of you. And, you know, trying to figure out what is the most overlap you can get. That's really great.

I mean, I just don't think there is such thing as a perfect sex life. I think, like, aiming for perfection in any area of your life is never going to make you happy and you're never going to actually reach that. So I just don't think there is any such thing as perfect. I would also say, like, we don't feel any sort of pressure to look or be perfect either, because I think the reality is, like, when you see quote, unquote, perfection in other people, it's kind of annoying. Like, I don't know, maybe that's just me, but, like, I don't look up to people who are perfect. I look up to people who are human and share their humanity. Like, I think if we showed up on this podcast, if we showed up on Instagram every single day and just like, another perfect day, another perfect day of being the most perfect couple with the most perfect sex life. To me that sounds annoying. Like, I wouldn't want to follow and I wouldn't trust or believe somebody who was showing up that way. I think that, like, as humans, we connect with other humans when we experience our humanity. I mean, we get the best feedback from people when we share things that we've done wrong in our relationship, mistakes that we've made, embarrassing moments we've had with sex because it's a. It's connects us and it's like, oh my God, me too. I'm not alone. So I hope that our relationship and our sex life feel inspirational to other people. Of, like, yeah, I want to feel as comfortable as these guys do. Or, like, I want to explore more. Or even just listening to these two makes me feel more normal and not alone. Like, I hope we feel inspirational in that way, but I don't ever feel any pressure to come off as perfect because I don't believe in perfect. And I don't think that would actually serve our community.

Yeah, and I definitely don't feel any pressure to have this perfect sex life because what our content is about, whether that's our podcast or Instagram or our courses, like, our content is not about, like, okay, guys, we just had sex. Here's what we did. It was so great. Like, it's not like, you know, I don't know. We're not, like, you know, we don't do, like, fitness content where it's like, all right, watch my workout. Oh, like, we're not, you know, like, that's not what we are in the business of doing. And so I totally understand, you know, like, let's say that what we did was, like, you know, we filmed our workouts every day. If that was the business that we were in, I could understand there being some pressure of, like, oh, like, I need to be having, like, the best workouts or. Or whatever. Or, like. Or feeling like, oh, God, I'm, like, not loving, like, lifting weights right now, but, like, I feel like I have to because that's what my Instagram channel. I disagree.

I think that I would feel the same way about someone like that. I want a fitness person who shows up and says, I had zero motivation to go to the gym today. Here's what I did. Or, like, you know, I had a tough week where I, you know, didn't work out at all. And here's how I got back into it. Like, I don't want to see somebody who's just showing up as, you know, pretending to be perfect day after day.

Yeah, well, I mean, I guess I wonder. What I'm trying to say is, like, we don't even need to pretend to show up as perfect because we aren't showing you the nitty gritty details of our sex life. Because that's not like, what we're. That's not what we're trying to do.

Showing people. But we're talking about it. But, yeah, it's not like, every single day, here's my recap of what happened type of thing. Okay. On the other hand, we got another response that was, I assume your sex life isn't that great.

Thanks.

So we'll just say, yeah, what's your.

Answer to that, babe?

For us, like, I agree with what you were saying earlier. Like, there is no one size fits all sex life that's gonna work for everybody. So a huge part of having an incredible sex life is understanding what incredible means to you. And so based on what incredible means to me, I think we have an incredible sex life. I'm very happy with it. I feel satisfied. I get a lot of pleasure. I feel like we have a great emotional connection, and even it can feel like spiritual or kind of next level sometimes. It feels playful to me. It's. It feels like we're both willing to be vulnerable. And, yeah, the sex itself is, like, very, very fun and pleasurable and enjoyable. So for me, it's an incredible sex life, and it is a fine balance here. Like, I think that there's one thing. It's, you know, it's one thing to acknowledge the ways that you're not perfect, the things that you get wrong. And at the same time, you also have to have enough expertise and experience and results to be able to teach other people. So if we had a shitty sex life, like, that would be very inauthentic to me to be coaching people through, like, how to have great sex if we're not walking the walk ourselves.

However, everything Vanessa just described in characterizing our sex life like that is sort of in aggregate. The reality is, is sometimes we have sex, and it's just kind of so. So kind of law. Like, that is a reality of life that, like, even if you are striving for something really great, it's not always going to be so great 100% of the time. The reality is that. Yeah. That all the stuff that she described, all those kind of adjectives that she used to describe our sex life. Yeah. A lot of the time it feels like that Sometimes we just get it done.

Yeah. Okay, next assumption. I assume that you have a mansion and only live in one little part of it.

This sounds maybe like a little, like.

Kind of creative or. Okay.

Or maybe, you know, like a childhood fantasy or something. But no, we.

We do not have a mansion. If we did have a mansion, I would sprawl out into every part of it. Oh, yeah, Vanessa, having a mansion, if you can't, like, take up all that space.

Yeah, but I feel like you would just. You would, like, roll around in all the rooms.

I would have rooms for different activities. Like, this is the room that I only read in. This is the room that I have my morning tea in. This is the room that I watch my Bravo reality shows by myself in.

I'm not allowed in that room.

Yeah, you're not. There's definitely going to be at least one room that you're not allowed in. Like, sprawl out.

Yeah.

Take it over.

But I mean, yeah, we also. We definitely don't have a sex room. So, like, yeah, you know, have a sex room.

Our house is not big enough for an exclusively.

I think that's. I think that's when we hit mansion status, is when it's like, all right, okay, so, like, we have the reading room. We have the Bravo TV know, Xander allowed room. You know, we have all these other rooms. And what are we going to do with this last room? Okay. Sex room. That's really when we've arrived. And I guess we just haven't arrived yet.

We haven't. So keep buying our guides and courses.

Yeah. Maybe one day you'll fund our sex room. What would our sex room look like?

God, that's another episode for another time.

Yeah. What do you think? Let us know. Let us know on Instagram what we should put in our sex room.

Okay, next assumption. I assume both of you have high body confidence and never feel uncomfortable naked. I think those are two different things.

Yeah. Not. Not never.

I'm curious to know how you would answer. Do you have high body confidence? A and B, do you ever feel uncomfortable naked?

I would say I have body confidence. I have some confidence.

Medium.

Yeah, I wouldn't say it's high.

It's grown a lot.

It has grown a lot. It has grown a lot. Yeah.

I mean, I feel like you're approaching high.

Yeah, I. Yeah, I mean, I guess I have like one hang up.

Okay. And what about being comfortable naked?

I. Well, I mean, I feel very comfortable naked with you. I don't know. I mean, we, we don't live in a country anymore where it's like common to get naked. We used to live in Germany where like, you know, like, you know, like it was very like you go to a lake or something and like people just get naked to go swimming and stuff. So like, I, I don't, I don't really know because like, we don't live summer where like it would be common to just kind of be naked around other people because there are a lot of places in the world where that is more common. I don't know how I would feel about that right now because I don't have any reps doing it. But I mean, yes, I've always had a lot of high naked confidence around you.

What about during sex? Do you ever worry about your body?

No, I don't think I ever have in my life mind.

But I remember asking you that question for the first time and just being absolutely astounded. Like as a woman, I can't even fathom what it would be like to not think about your body and what it looks like naked when you're having sex.

I'm like, I'm like, oh yeah. Like, oh, should I be worried about this? Like, no, this feels great. Like hell. Yeah. Let's go.

So I would say, I would say I have body confidence as well. I don't know if I would describe it as super high. Like I have hang ups too. I have days where I don't feel comfortable in my own skin, but I've done a lot of work in recognizing that that's not actually how I feel about my body. That's how I've been taught to feel about my body. I have spent decades of my life being social to believe that my body needs to fit within a very, very narrow window of what's acceptable. And I've been trained to look at my body super critically and point out all the tiny little things down to my cuticles of what doesn't look good about my body. So that process of recognizing, like, that's not actually how I feel. That's how I've been taught to feel. That's been very powerful for me. And I also recognize that it's. It's just gonna be a lifelong process. I've spent my entire life getting that training. It's gonna take time to, like, fully unravel it. And actually, I don't know if I will ever fully unravel it. So I've got body confidence. I feel good about my body, and I feel comfortable naked around you for the most part. I definitely have moments of feeling insecure. I definitely have moments where, you know, during sex, where I think about, like, what does my body look like in this position?

It's hot. I guarantee.

My boobs, like, sliding into my arm. I thought that last night I was like, my boobs are sliding into my armpits right now. But again, for me, it's this process of recognizing, like, that thought is a societal thought. It's not a me thought. Like, my thoughts, my pure thoughts towards my own body are nothing but love and appreciation and gratitude.

You know what I was thinking? What? I was thinking, boobs. I like boobs.

Next assumption. I assume you make the bed every day. Not sure which one of you, though.

Hey, that is a great assumption, because, yes, the bed gets made most days. It is my job to make the bed. Occasionally you forget. I forget.

Yeah.

It's more often on days when I go surfing in the morning, and then I have a very tight window of time between, like, when I get home and get ready for work and get all the work done.

And I love a maid bed. I appreciate it so much. Thanks.

She does. I know. The problem, though, is that I like Vanessa. Vanessa, I think, would prefer that I make the bed after we have sex. But often I've made the bed before we have sex, and then Vanessa's like, oh, but now I don't get to crawl into a made bed. But I'd say that's maybe our only problem. I don't make the bed twice. If I've made the bed once in a day, I'm not gonna make it again. Maybe un. Someone's going to come over to the house.

All right, next up, we have a group of similar responses. This was another theme that emerged in the assumptions. I assume Vanessa wears the pants. I assume Xander takes on the more stereotypically female role. And I thought this one was kind of looped in with those two. I assume that Vanessa struggles with letting go of control. So I wanted to address these ones because I think there's some very interesting things that come up around gender.

Yeah.

You know, so, like, Xander and I have had a lot of conversations, especially early in our relationship, but we continue to have them about, like, what does it mean to us to be a man, to be a woman? And how do we want gender roles to operate in our relationship? I mean, I think we all get socialized again, back to the socialization with beliefs about, like, what it means to be a man and to be a woman. And these are the things that men do, and these are the things that women do. And I think we're living in a particularly interesting and tricky period of time where a lot of people are reevaluating these things. A lot of people are saying, you know, yeah, we saw the stereotypical, like, 1950s male female relationships. You know, the man's the breadwinner, and she's the mom and the homemaker. Like, a lot of people don't want those stereotypical gender roles anymore. And at the same time, like, we don't. Or I'll just speak for myself, Like, I don't want to erase gender entirely. Like, I'm proud of being a woman. I think there are unique and amazing things about being a woman. So it's not like I want to create this, you know, genderless society where we're, you know, so it's. It's just, like, tricky to kind of navigate what does it mean to be a woman? And how do I piece apart, like, all the crappy socialization that I've received from what being a woman, like, genuinely and authentically means to me?

Yeah, I think it's. It's easy to look at this from a black and white perspective where it's like, if I don't want to live by stereotypical gender roles in terms of money or in terms of career, then therefore, I shouldn't. Or we shouldn't want any stereotypical gender roles, or we don't want, like, any breakdown of like, oh, I'm more masculine and you're more feminine. But the reality is. Is, like, everything, you know, it's easy to think of it in terms of black and white, but. But the reality is that it's a whole huge gray area where you really do get to pick and choose what things work and don't work for you. And. Yeah, I mean, the reality is, for me is, you know, I was born male. I identify as male. Like, that is a strong identity for me. And I'm not. I don't have any desire to get rid of that.

Yeah. But I think I get frustrated sometimes when, like, you know, seeing responses like these, like, you know, oh, that you're more feminine. That type of stuff, where it's like, here's, you know. Yeah, you're a man who is comfortable with his emotions, is comfortable with communication.

Yeah, I'm a man who is comfortable coming into a business that his wife founded and partnering with her on it. And I, you know, I feel comfortable with her, you know, being, you know, we're both the face of this business. And also, Vanessa represents our business more than I do in some, you know, certain areas. Like, she has the byline on our book. She guests on certain podcasts on her own. And, like, I'm a man that just isn't threatened by that. I love seeing. I love seeing us successful, and I love seeing you be successful.

Well, I think I get a little bit frustrated sometimes seeing things like this. Like, oh, you know, Xander must be taking on the more stereotypically female role because he's a man who. Who's comfortable with his emotions, whose values communication, who doesn't have a big ego about needing to be seen as the leader. Like, so seeing this get labeled as female, like, one, there's an implication that, like, those aren't desirable traits. They're not as worthy or valuable. Like, you know. Yeah. And then it's also, like, that it seems undesirable for a man to have feminine traits. So it's like, why are we labeling these great qualities as feminine and lesser than? And why are we labeling men who are feminine as lesser than as well? So this could obviously be an entire episode, like, gender dynamics and stereotypes. Like, obviously, this is so complex. But I mean, to answer these assumptions, like, I don't wear the pants in our relationship, like, we have a lot of great conversations about balancing, like, who's taking the lead in certain areas. We've divided up our responsibilities and our mental load in a way that works, like, really nicely for us. So you Know, I'm definitely, like, as a. I'm an assertive person. And I think sometimes as a woman, we, as a society, we really struggle with women who are assertive and, you know, and confident. But that doesn't translate into wearing the pants or being the boss or Xander being submissive. And I'll also say I actually don't struggle with letting go of control. I really enjoy when other people take control, too. I'm comfortable taking control, but I also don't, like, hold tightly to it.

Yeah, I think that's a trait we both share. We both are comfortable taking control when the situation dictates that or when it is needed. But, yeah, it's like, in our business, I have zero issues kind of giving up some control to Vanessa if she has a strong opinion about something or she has a vision for how something should go. And then again, I. This is something I had to work on because I joined our business. It was a business that you had built up originally, and I kind of worked my way into it, and I'm now sort of this co partner, co visionary with you in our business. And so, yeah, I absolutely did need to work on my assertiveness, because there was a time where it was like, oh, I have an idea, or, I really think we should do this, but who am I to really assert myself? It's not fully my business. Yeah. But I've really worked on, you know, being also assertive in our business. When I feel strongly about something, I feel comfortable telling Vanessa, hey, this is something that I feel very strongly about. I think that where a lot of people kind of stumble or, you know, maybe more of that toxic masculinity creeps in, is feeling like, oh, if I have an opinion as a man with masculine energy, like, I need to assert that opinion without gauging, how strong is this opinion? Is this something that, like, I'm really adamant about, I feel very strongly about, or is this just, like, an opinion that I don't care that much about? It's just sort of the first thing that came to mind. But, like, I'd be happy with both options. I think the more kind of toxic way of looking at it is it's like, I'm supposed to have a strong opinion on everything, and so you just kind of go in hard on everything. And for me, I'm really comfortable being like, yeah, I have an opinion on this. If Vanessa prefers doing it the other way, she feels more strongly than I do. I am totally cool doing that versus me being like, you know what? Like, I really want to go this way. I think the other idea is actually maybe has an issue or, like, I could see a lot of downsides to it. Like, I'll be assertive when it comes to that. So, you know, I think it's just a balance of having assertiveness, but also understanding when you don't need to be assertive and when you can kind of seed control to the other person.

Before we go any further, let's tell you a little bit more about Babbel. So we first shared Babel last month with you, and we were so excited because we had actually signed up for Babel ourselves, like a month prior to Babel approaching us to be a podcast sponsor. So this was the easiest home run. Yes. Ever. Because we had done all this research on language learning apps. We'd been using Babel, you know, we signed up for it with our own money and we'd been using it for about a month. So we were so excited to be approached to be sponsors because we have absolutely been loving Babbel and we're continuing to love it. It was really important to both of us to get our Spanish back and just to find a simple way to do it. I mean, let's be real, like, trying to hire a tutor or go in for courses like that takes a lot of time. It can be very expensive. And there are other language learning apps that feel like they're just a little bit more like a game. You're not actually learning as much. So for us, and in all the research that we did, like, Babel felt like the perfect approach because you're getting this balance of education. Like, they have all these lessons that really explain to you why is the grammar this way, or what things do you need to look out for. But then you're also getting a lot of experience. So you're speaking, you're listening, you're like doing play by plays with conversations. So it's this great combination of things. And they have done so much research on this app to make it as effective as possible. And I can absolutely tell you, as somebody paying my own money to use this app, like, I can feel the difference in other things that I've tried. And I feel like I'm really learning and retaining my Spanish in a way that I'm so excited about. So who knows? Give me a couple more months. Maybe I'll be delivering some ads in Spanish. Probably not, because most of you won't be able to understand. But I just feel so excited using Babbel and I'm really, really thankful and excited to be able to share it with you guys as well. And we have a special limited time deal for our listeners to get you started. Right now, get 55% off your Babbel subscription, but only for our listeners@babbel.com pillow get 55% off@babbel.com pillow that's spelled B a B-B-E-L.com pillow rules and restrictions may apply. Let's tell you a little bit more about Cozy Earth. So Cozy Earth and Babbel both being our podcast sponsors for this episode, is very special because these are two companies that we spent our own money on to get the products and have tested them out, have enjoyed them for ourselves. So, so excited to share about Cozy Earth with they make luxury linens and also clothing. So our favorite product has been the sheets. We have I think two or three different sheet sets. We also have duvet covers, pillowcases. Like the whole bundle is from Cozy Earth. And our favorite type of sheets are the linen. It's like a bamboo linen. So they have this really nice linen texture to it. But if you're not a fan of linen, they also have tons of other variations as well. Their specialty is really softness. Like I have never experienced soft sheets the way that I have with Cozy Earth. Even in like really nice hotels or, you know, staying at friends houses like Cozy Earth, sheets are second to none. They are really, really special and the secret truly is in giving them a few washes. Like they will arrive nice and soft and wonderful and ready to go. But I swear, with every wash they keep getting softer and softer and cozier. Xander and I are obsessed with them. We have other sheet sets. We don't use them anymore. We only use Cozy Earth because we love them so much and they have an incredible warranty as well. So there's really nothing to lose. Like try them out, see if you like them. We really think you're going to, but if for some reason you don't, they have this incredible warranty as well. Their linens are just so luxurious, high quality. Their sheet sets are temperature regulating and just incredibly, incredibly soft. And of course they are giving us an incredible deal. Cozy Earth provided an exclusive offer for Pillow Talks listeners today get up to 35% off site wide when you use code pillow talks@cozyearth.com I really cannot say enough about these sheets. They make crawling into bed at the end of the day feel like such a luxurious treat. Everybody deserves to have high quality bed linen, something that you feel excited to get into bed to at the end of the day. So, like we said before, Cozy Earth provided an exclusive offer for Pillow Talks. Listeners today get up to 35% off site wide when you use the code pillow talks@cozyearth.com. let's lighten it up with the next one.

All right.

I assume that X was bad at bed. Envy teached him. That's how that one was written.

Bad at bed.

Bad at bed. And I had to teach to you.

Interesting.

Was it true.

I think, that we taught each other what, I mean, we.

Were both bad at Ben.

Well, no, no. I mean, like, I, I guess I, I wouldn't say, like, I had the most experience, like, with sex. Like, you know, I think that, you know, I, I basically, you're going down.

A path that I was not expecting in this one.

I don't know. I mean, I, I basically had, like, two partners in, you know, two, like, relationships. Two serious relationships in the past where I had, you know, a good amount of sex in. Because I was with that person for a while. But, like, I, yeah, I had never worked on anything. I had never really talked about it, like, oh, like, let's, let's do this. Or, like, oh, you know, we hadn't, I hadn't really ever gone deep with anyone. And like, oh, I like. You really like it when I do that. Okay, let's do more of that. Like, let's try this, let's try that. So, you know, I feel like I, you know, it wasn't until a couple years into our relationship, I feel like that I really got comfortable actually working on sex and getting better at sex. I just kind of assumed.

Earnest answer.

I just assumed that sex was a thing I was supposed to be good at. That sort of toxic, toxic masculinity of like, no, like, I know what I'm doing and I will shut out all opinion. You know, I, I will push aside, like, any opposing viewpoint and just stick my head in the sand. And we're only going to do the stuff that I feel comfortable with. And that was me for a while. It was.

No, I mean, I, I appreciate that you're going with the earnest answer here, despite the, the funny assumption, but I think, yeah. One thing that we really try to normalize for people is that whenever you have sex with, there is an element of learning.

Yeah. I don't care how good you are.

There's no such thing as being universally good in bed. Like, you sure, like, maybe you have some confidence, maybe you've tried out a few things, but every person's body is so unique that when you start sleeping with somebody new, it's starting over again. Figuring out how do our bodies fit together? What do we like, how do we communicate? All of that stuff. So I guess we did teach each other.

That's what I was about to say. We teached each other.

I assume that you don't fight about money. Cause y' all are. Are on the same page about it. Do we fight about money?

I don't. Not really. We have in the past.

We have in the past. Yeah. So we. I mean, money is another area that we had to put a lot of work and a lot of communication into. You know, we, like, started our relationship. We've shared this story before. I believe that you kind of took over the role of the financial guy, and I was not nearly as involved. And we had to eventually have a conversation where you said, like, it doesn't feel fair that all this pressure is on me to be, you know, figuring things out and making plans and all that kind of stuff. But since we had that conversation, like, I've put a lot of effort into being more involved, into educating myself into, you know, initiating things on my own. And we've had a lot of conversations about money as well, about, like, you know, what role do we want money to play in our lives? What feels important to us to spend money on, and what feels not so important to spend money on. So I feel like we've. Yeah, we've put a lot of effort into it, but I think we're definitely on very, very similar pages about the relationship that we want to have with money.

Yeah. And I mean, I think just being really honest, I think that we were not ever that far off from the beginning in terms of our. In terms of our money philosophies. I may have very early on in our relationship, maybe been a bit, like, stingier with money, so to speak, in terms. But, like, I very quickly realized that I was. It was like, I had these ideas about how I wanted to operate with money, but I myself was not actually following those things. There was a lot of hypocrisy in what it was that I was preaching or what it was that I wanted to sort of. Of how I wanted us to act, AKA like, how Vanessa acted with, you know, when it came to spending our money. And that I wasn't necessarily following those rules myself. And that was kind of. I had to come to terms with some stuff about, like, okay, am I really practicing what I'm preaching here? And if I'm not practicing what I'm Preaching, and I am happy with what I'm practicing, then maybe I need to change what I'm preaching. And that was an opportunity for us to just really talk about, okay, what are our perspectives on money? What do we want our perspectives to be? Because I think just like body image, money is one of those really ingrained things where we've picked up so many messages from society, from family, from friends, from tv, about, like, what it is that you are supposed to do. And I think there can be a huge discrepancy between what you think you should do and then, like, what you actually do or what you might want to do if you could start over from scratch. So. So I'm really glad we got to have those conversations. I highly recommend that for anybody listening.

And we do have a Pillow Talks podcast episode about that. That's episode 62, the truth about Money and Relationships. Let's actually do this one next because it's pretty similar. I assume you both come from wealthy families, so this assumption is false. Neither one of us came from wealthy families. We both came from pretty solidly middle class families. But I think what has been valuable for both of us is that both sets of our parents are very entrepreneurial. Like, all of them have had their own businesses. None of them have really worked a traditional nine to five type of thing. And so both of our families have managed to elevate their financial status over the years. So, like, for me growing up, my family was just very solidly middle class. And there were a lot of times where I felt self conscious about money. Like, like we wouldn't shop in the nice stores. Like, all my clothes came from Sears. Ross Dress for Less. We actually were just going by Ross Dress for Less the other day. And I was like, I have so many traumatic memories being a preteen in Ross. Just like, mom, I just want to. Just want to shop at Pacific sun and Wet Seal. Why do we have to be at Ross?

I want to go to the other mall. Yeah.

And I had like, yeah, my. I got a first car, which was great, but like, it was a very shitty beat up chevy blazer. Like two tone, totally crap. It was like a $2,000 car or something like that. So, like, I didn't feel wealthy or abundant growing up, but you know, my. Yeah, my parents had that mindset of you can be whatever you want to be, you can do whatever you want to do, and you can, you know, elevate your situation if you want to. And I was motivated, yeah. To be able to shop at Abercrombie and pacsun.

That was my Hell, yeah, girl. You did it.

I did it.

You're still shopping at Abercrombie now.

So I do buy Abercrombie, and it. It does, like, it's really soothing to that little preteen part of myself who never, ever got a single item of clothing from Abercrombie.

Well, I mean, despite the fact that Abercrombie is completely rebranded, it is a polar. Polar opposite type of vibe than it used to be back when we were teenagers. But, yeah, no, I really appreciate that sort of being able to see that entrepreneurial spirit and be able to watch what is possible. I think we definitely both have picked up on that and put our own spin on it.

Next up, I assume Vanessa is secretly a dominatrix.

She's not. Sorry.

I'm sorry. There's no interesting or juicy answer here. I just said the word juicy.

It's on you. It's on you, babe.

I hate the word juicy. So the only time you can use the word juicy is, like, with fruit. That was a juicy peach.

It is.

That's okay.

It's juicy stone fruit season right now.

But the. I can't believe I said that. Sorry. But, yeah, there's nothing. No secrets here. Not a dominatrix. I assume that Vanessa usually starts the argument.

This is an interesting one.

I think it's true. I say it's true, but.

It'S because.

You do more bad things.

Interesting. Tell me more, please.

The dynamic between the two of us is that. So I think I start more arguments because you let things roll off your back a lot more, and that's for better and for worse.

It absolutely is.

Sometimes it's a good thing. Sometimes, like, I say or do something annoying to you, and you're just like, whatever, and you've gotten better at at least expressing like, hey, I didn't like that, or that hurt my feelings. But, like, you can move on very quickly. Sometimes, though, you let things fester and it's not good. And it would be much healthier for you to start a very small. I wouldn't even call it an argument, but, like, to start a small conversation.

Or like, hey, that didn't feel good.

Or I don't.

I. I don't.

That. I don't like that you've improved in that way. And I think you can, you know, continue. That's something that you're gonna need to be working on.

Thanks.

So I technically start them more often because, yeah, I don't like. I do get bothered by things more, but the way That I look at it is if I can share something with you and have a quick conversation, I will get over it so much faster. I am not. Not a festerer. Like, I never fester. I would so much rather just share. This is what's bothering me. And I, you know, we get it out. And then there's also a dynamic of, like, so you're a. A verbal processor, and I'm like, you're an external processor. I'm an internal processor.

Yeah, I was gonna say this.

And so a lot of our conflict gets started because you say things out loud that you're, like, thinking them through, and sometimes they're hurtful, Sometimes they're not at all what you actually feel. You just, like, have to say it out loud. And that helps you realize, like, oh, that's not what I actually think or feel. And for me, I do so much internal processing that by the time I'm saying something, I mean it. I do not say things that I don't mean. And so that was, like, one of the hardest things that I had to overcome in our relationship is recognizing that you're not the same way.

Say.

And, like, sometimes you do just say things that you don't mean.

Yeah. I absolutely am more likely to be working something through as I'm saying it, because, honestly, it's like, I could think about it for hours and hours, and it still has a kind of different tone or different feel when it's actually coming out of your mouth, at least for me.

So funny for me.

And so never had that experience. And so I think the thing that I've really had to learn is, like, I've had to take responsibility for that. And it's actually very empowering to be able to take responsibility for that and say, hey, this is how I work. You know, this is what it is like for me. And part of that is that I need to take responsibility for it. Sometimes I, you know, can end up using words that, you know, I will look, looking back, realize, okay, yeah, that's not really what I meant. And I can. I can explain that now. I can describe that. But I do have to take responsibility for the fact that I, you know, I did say something, or I might use some words that could feel hurtful or could give a different impression of things. And, you know, I need to be able to understand that that has an impact, I think so often we can kind of, like, use this as an excuse, like, oh, well, I'm just an external processor, and therefore, I get to say whatever I want as Long as the thing that I ultimately land on is okay, because somehow, by landing on that thing, it erases everything that happened. It's. It's sort of like saying, like, oh, well, like, you know, I got in a car accident and I got hurt, and I went to the hospital, and they stitched me up, and when I left the hospital, I was fine, and therefore, the accident didn't happen because, like, I got fixed up. Maybe that's an extreme example, but, yeah, it doesn't work that way. Like, you know, when you say something, it impacts someone, even if you take it back or change your perspective. And so, you know, they're just a personal responsibility to that. And, you know, it took me a long time to realize that that was something I got to take responsibility for. And it feels great now that I do that, because now I am really good at being able to apologize or just understand the impact of my words or just the impact of things on other people.

We have had requests to do an episode specifically about that, so let us know on Instagram if that's something that you're interested in. All right, we're coming down the home stretch here. I assume you're both natural risk takers and extra introverts, so I'll answer this one first. I am a natural risk taker.

Yeah. 100%.

Yeah, for sure. I feel fear of things. Like, I'm not always wildly confident and, like, zero fear. Like, I feel the fear, and I choose to do it anyway because I have so much faith in the outcome and in the process of it. Like, I really grow so much by taking risks. I feel like that's the secret to growth, is being willing to take risks going outside of your comfort zone.

But. But let's be clear. This more you're talking more about, like, personal development, business stuff with, like. No, we're not talking about, like, physical. Like, physical stuff.

Oh, no.

Like. Like, Vanessa is not jumping out of planes.

No, I would. I would skydive. I've bungee jumped.

Yeah.

So I would do those things, but I'm not, like, an extreme. Yeah, you're not.

Like, you're not. Like, you're not a thrill seeker.

Yeah, I'm not a thrill seeker. That's a better way of putting it. I am not an extrovert, though. I am an extroverted introvert. Like, I do. I love people. I love being around people. I love talking, but it definitely drains me. And that's what I think is the most pure definition of introvert versus extrovert. Do you get Drained or do you get charged up being around other people? I get drained being around other people. I like it. And it's something I spend a lot of my time doing, and I also get drained. And I need a lot of alone time to come back from it. So I love having alone time. Quiet time. You can be there. Yeah, you can be there. During my introvert time.

Yeah. We don't count.

Like, I need time to recharge.

We don't count for each other.

So. Xander, are you a risk taker?

Oh, God. I'm a no and a no on this, so by default, I am not. I am not a risk taker.

You're a comfort seeker.

You know, like, I'm not a risk taker. Like, for, you know, I think in the extreme example, like, the idea of gambling, like, money is, like, nothing about that appeals to me. So, like, yeah, that. That's kind of like.

Yeah, it's like, to be comfortable in. In all areas of your life, but you've learned to be more risk taking.

I have. I. I have learned. Yeah. I've learned to have a lot more trust or faith. I think, like, that's really the big thing for me is that, like, faith that things will turn out for the best if I do my part. If I show up and do my part and, like, put my best in that I trust. I believe, I have faith that the universe or whatever out there, you know, will. Will provide. And that's been really powerful for me. I think I used to not have any connection to that of, like, there being anything, anything more out there, that it was just sort of me alone and it was all about me and whatever. But, yeah, things have changed for me in the last couple of years, and I feel more comfortable taking risks as long as I feel comfortable putting in the work to take that risk and set us up for success. Now, in terms of introversion. Extroversion. I'm an introvert. I think I can just solidly say I am an introvert. I had a lot of judgment towards myself for a very long time about that. I. I think I. You know, I think I. I think most people want to be an extrovert or feel like they should be an extrovert. And I've struggled with that for a really long time. But, yeah, no, I mean, like, social situations outside of, like, social situations with, like, people that I feel very, very comfortable with, like Vanessa or, you know, very close friends is very draining to me.

Okay. I suspect that when you post videos talking that you are not always dressed on the bottom. Define not always dressed naked on the bottom.

Okay. Naked. No.

You know what?

I think that there was. There was one time there was. I can.

You had no pants on.

Yeah, well, hold on. Let me.

Donald Ducking.

Yes. I think those one time where, like, you. We were, like, in the. I don't even know why. Like, I was like. I was in the middle of, like, changing. Like, we were about to go to Pilates and so I was, like, putting on my. I was, like, putting on my exercise shorts. And it was like, one of those things where, like, you were doing a story and I didn't know, and then you, like, turned to me and it was like, oh, Xander, what do you think about that? And I, like. I, like, responded. And then it was kind of like. And it was like, what are we actually doing here? And then. And then we both were, like, felt really uncomfortable about the video and didn't post it.

Okay. We are always dressed on the bottom. We do not Winnie the Po. We're not always like. Like professional. Yeah. I mean, yoga pants or, you know, shorts and stuff like that. But no, we are always dressed on the bottom.

Yes.

And our final assumption. I assume that you talk about sex a lot together and with your friends and family, too. I mean, this one's pretty obvious.

It's what we do.

We do.

One is what we do. And two, it is a topic that people are starved to talk about. Like, or starved of talking. Talking about. Like, yeah, societally, people want to talk about it. And I think that. I mean, that is the validation of the work that we do. That it's like, you know, it. We go, you know, like when we meet someone and, like, go out to dinner with someone for the first time. I would say nine times out of ten, the topic ends up turning to sex. I think that's just 10 times out of 10. Yeah, 10 times out of 10. I mean, it's just that right there is, like, it's why we know we're doing the right thing, that people need that people. People don't have those safe spaces to be able to talk about something that they clearly really want to talk about. Because every time we hang out with people and once they realize, like, oh, these are, like, trustworthy people, everyone wants to talk about it.

So, yes, if you want to get more comfortable talking about sex with your partner, we definitely recommend our New York Times best selling book, Sex Talks, the five conversations that will transform your love life. You can go tosex sextalks book.com. we have all the links to purchase it at all the major retailers. And if you come back to the page after you purchase it, fill out a little form, you will get a 69 page workbook. Absolutely. For free. So make sure to go check out Sex Talks. And you can become comfortable talking about.

Sex too, because you 100% can. We lay it out the five ways, five steps to doing it. It's really straightforward and you deserve it. Really easy and it's actually really fun. You deserve it. All right. Well, that's it for today's episode of Pillow Talks. Thank you so much for listening and thank you so much for assuming. Join us again next week when we talk about one of our favorite topics, foreplay.