Episode 133: Dead Bedrooms Part 2: We Coach Another Couple Through Resuscitating Their Sex Life

You can pick up on that vibe. Like it doesn't feel sexy, it doesn't feel enticing, it turns it into sex. That's like just crossing something off the to do list instead of a genuine connection between two people who love each other. Hello and welcome to the Pillow Talks podcast. We're your hosts, Vanessa and Zander Marin. I'm a sex Therapist with over 20.

Years of experience and I'm just a regular dude. We share the ups and downs in our relationship while giving you step by step techniques for improving yours.

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Thanks to DHPSY for supporting Pillow Talks. Get an extended 30 day free trial when you go to dipseastories.com pillow this episode is sponsored by Uncommon Goods, an online shop dedicated to unique and high quality gifts made made by artists and independent businesses. To get 15% off your next gift, go to uncommongoods.compillow Today we're back with part two of the second most popular episode we have ever done in Pillow Talks history. So this is episode 133. In 133 episodes, this was the second most popular and I have to say the first most popular is our story about our decision to be child free. It's like our most intense, intimate, personal episode.

Hard to compete with that one.

Yeah, it's hard to compete with that. But this one is really competing. And the topic is dead bedrooms. So let's start off talking about what a dead bedroom is.

Yes.

And the problem here is that this is a phrase that you hear all the time. People talk about being in a dead bedroom. There are a ton of online like forums and communities devoted to dead bedrooms, but there really isn't a clear definition of what a dead bedroom actually is. As a therapist, I can tell you it's not a diagnosis. Like this isn't something that I would diagnose my clients as like, ah, yes, you have a dead bedroom.

It's not. It's not in the dsm.

It's not in the dsm.

Oh, that's a class two dead bedroom. Not. It's not a class three.

No. Okay, so what a dead bedroom is is basically when a couple has not had sex for a very long period of time. And when we did part one of this episode, which is, by the way, episode 98, if you want to listen to the first one, we talked about this a little bit, that it's hard to know the difference between a dry spell, another term that doesn't really have a definition, but a dry spell is we haven't had sex in a while. So where do you cross the line from it's just a dry spell into it's a dead bedroom? Because to me, dead bedroom implies more of a sense of permanence, like, it's dead. Whereas a dry spell is like, yeah, we're. We're in a little dry spell, but, you know, we're. We're going to get out of it soon.

Yeah. Or at least to me, it implies some broader level of dysfunction in the bedroom when it comes to your sex life. Like, you know, we haven't. We are not having sex. We haven't had sex for a long time. And it's a supercharged topic. It doesn't. It doesn't feel like, oh, if we just had sex again, that would solve the problem. I think that's often how a dry spell feels. It's like, oh, well, if we could just kind of get back in the saddle, everything would go back to normal. And I think that, you know, we can't tell you where that line is, but it starts to cross into that dead bedroom territory when it's like, you can't even imagine. Like, oh, well, if we just had sex again. Like, no, nothing would be better. Like, there are broader systemic issues at play.

Okay, I want to backtrack for a second because we both used words that I don't love. So you said the word dysfunction. I prefer to just say, like, issues. They're. They're bigger issues at play.

Broader issues.

Yeah, yeah. And I use the word permanent, which I definitely don't mean, like, we're never having sex again, but it just feels like maybe it's stretched on for longer. There's less hope that we can just, like, jump right back into the saddle. It just feels bigger and heavier. But also, like, we don't really love the term dead bedroom either. Like, we use it because it's so recognizable. Just like we use the word foreplay, even though we don't love that. Word either. But dead bedroom just. It feels sad and heavy and shameful. And the reality is that most couples will go through at least having a dry spell. So we want to normalize. Like, yes, this is. It's very difficult to be in a situation where there's not much intimacy. You're really struggling with it. You don't even really know how you're going to get back to it. But it's also something that is pretty common and there are ways to get out of it. So it's not dead and permanent in that sort of way. So we did poll our Instagram community. We shared these results in the first episode that we did about dead bedrooms. But we're going to repeat some of the stuff that we shared in that episode, just in this episode. So what we found is that 93% of our audience said that they have had a dry spell. And we're in part of that 93% ourselves.

Absolutely.

We asked, how long did it last? 15% said six to 11 months, and 18% said over a year.

And just in case you're wondering, obviously those numbers don't add up to 100. Most of the. Most of those other numbers would have been in the less than six months category. But we're just focusing on these higher numbers because we're talking about this bigger, longer dead bedroom thing.

So when we did that first episode, we asked our community, like, are you in a dead bedroom situation? Can you share your story with us? We received hundreds and hundreds of submissions. And so we knew, like, right away when we did that first episode, we're gonna do a second one. So we put out the same call, we got the same number of submissions, we sorted through all the stories, and we picked one, because I just think, especially with a complex situation like this, it's more interesting to do a deep dive into one story than, like, casually going over the surface of, like, five or six different stories. So we're deep diving into one very brave and very vulnerable coup story today to kind of walk you through, why might they have gotten into this situation? What's keeping them in this place, and how can they get out of it?

But first, let's do a little mini deep dive into this week's review of the week.

But first, before you share the review of the week, I want to jump in because I was thinking about something the other day. I was actually re listening to one of our podcast episodes. We, we got to the review of the week, and I skipped over it and I was like, you know what? I bet that There are a lot of people who just like skip right over the review of the week. They're like, yeah, it's this thing that they do every week and they miss what we say at the very end, which is the most important part. Like, we don't just do this review of the week to make ourselves feel good, to toot our own horns like, oh, look at what a good job we did yet again. We do this because reviews are safe, single handedly the best way for the podcast to grow. When you leave a review, it shows Apple and Spotify that like this is a legit podcast, they should recommend it to more people. When people see good reviews on a podcast, they're way more likely to listen to it. And especially as a podcast, dealing with such sensitive topics, it's very hard for our podcast to grow in the ways that a lot of other podcasts can grow. So the reviews really, really, really help us so much. So if we have ever made an impact on your life, made you la giving you a good tip, we would really appreciate you taking some time to leave a review. And we have a really simple suggestion for you here. The next time you're waiting in line at Starbucks and scrolling away on Instagram, how about leave us a review instead? It only takes a few minutes. It lets others know how much you enjoy the podcast. And of course there is a giveaway that we do every single week. So once you leave the podcast review on Apple Podcasts, just scroll to the bottom of the main podcast page. You'll see the section for reviews. Once you leave it, you are entered into a weekly giveaway every week going forward. And if you hear your review, read on the episode, which is another reason not to skip over the review of the week. If you hear yours read, you can reach out to us@infovm therapy.com and you will get a prize. We just give away a prize every single week of our way of saying thank you for taking the time to leave a review.

All right, this week's review of the week, the podcast I didn't know I needed. I discovered Pillow Talks through another podcast and have never looked back. I've listened to all the recent ones, have gone back to listen to past ones, and have now got my husband to listen with me. As we listen to podcasts together, they have helped initiate so many conversations that we've had and has made our relationship so much stronger. Whether it's a fun would you rather podcast or conversations on Mental Load, the episodes seem timely and help us broach complicated topics in A calm and manageable way. So important and helpful. Woo. That is such an awesome review. Thank you so much for leaving it.

All right, so let's get into the episode. So I just wanted to mention that in part one, which again, is episode 98, definitely worth listening to. But we kicked off that episode by sharing the common causes for dead bedrooms. We put a question box up on Instagram. We asked our community, like, if you're in a dead bedroom situation, what do you think caused it? Like, what's getting in the way of the two of you connecting? So I just want to run through the list of the most common answers that came up, and if you want to hear about any of these in more detail, definitely go listen to episode 98 after this one. But I think it's just a good context for us to get started with this episode on. So the most popular responses that came up by far and away number one was kids. People mentioned the postpartum phase, breastfeeding, lack of privacy, and even the trying to conceive journey, making sex not feel fun anymore. We also got a lot of responses for infidelity, feeling insecure about your body, afraid to talk about sex, and constant rejection from one partner.

We also heard a lot of stuff about mismatched sex drives, feeling more like roommates than romantic partners, illness, whether that's a mental or a physical illness, libido changes from taking certain medications, and then just a general overall lack of emotional intimacy.

Okay, so let's get into this couple's story. And before we get started, I like to always give this caveat that whenever people share stories with us, of course we are getting just the tiniest glimpse at what the full story is.

Yeah. And we're just getting one side of it too.

Yeah, it's just one side of it. It's just a tiny glimpse. And it's very easy to give advice and suggestions about somebody else's situation, and so much trickier when you are the person in that situation. So I think that's just something important for all of us to keep in mind as we go through this story of, like, let's try to, you know, hold some compassion. It still was really brave for this person to be willing to share their story. So let's just recognize, like, we're all human. We're all doing the best we can. Okay, so we're going to read through the story and we will pause at different scenes spots to dig a little bit deeper into the dynamics that are coming up for this couple. I'm in my late 20s and my partner is in his early 40s and this was a woman who sent in the response. So we've got male, female couple. We've been together for six years. I have two kids from a previous relationship that he has raised full time with me and the kids consider him dad.

Can I just jump in and say, hell yeah? Hell yeah, Dad. I think, you know, this, you know, this, this can be a challenging dynamic. And you know, we hear all the time about friction that comes out of, you know, one parent coming into a relationship and, you know, not, you know, not being a blood parent of kids.

That are already a blood biological parent. Biological parents. Sorry, Scary.

Sorry. A biological, like a biological parent. And just, you know, that can be a challenging dynamic. And again, like the caveat Vanessa said, we obviously don't have all the details, but you know, I love seeing the way that this is set up. It sounds like this is not an issue. So that's awesome.

Yeah. And we actually don't even know if they are married. So for him to be showing that level of commitment to her and her children is really wonderful. Okay. She continues on. Over the years, our sex life has become more and more non existent. When we moved in together, it went from one to two times a week to once a month to maybe a few times a year. So I think this story is the prime example of is it a dead bedroom or is it a dry spell?

It's like the slow fade.

Yeah, I mean, she says it's become non existent. And so I couldn't quite tell from her response, like, does that mean currently they're just not having sex at all? Or it is just like kind of a few times a year. But yeah, definitely not anywhere near as frequent as she wants it to be. And she resonates with the phrase dead bedroom. That's why she reached out to share her story in the first place.

Yeah, but I think that this is just something that so many people can relate with. Like you first move in together, you first get together, whatever it is, and it's like, it feels like sex is easy. It's happening all the time. You're not really thinking about it and then it just sort of starts to slide and you maybe don't even notice it at first. Like, oh yeah, it was a couple times a week and now it's once a week. But like, oh yeah, everything's fine. I'm not even thinking about it. And then it's like, oh God, it's not happening very often. What's going on? I just think this is, up to this point, like, so relatable for so many people. This has been us before.

Yeah. And also, I mean, moving in together where, you know, it's not just the two of you moving in together of, like, oh, we can have sex on the kitchen countertops in the middle of the day if we want to. It's like, yeah, her children are there.

Yeah.

So it's a very different kind of situation. And I. I actually got the sense from the submission that they started having less sex as soon as they moved in. Whereas, you know, we do hear about this from a lot of people. They're like, oh, I've heard that when you move in together, you're supposed to be having sex all the time. But, like, actually, we moved in together and felt like sex went off a cliff pretty quickly.

Yeah. I think that that can just totally depend on the relationship dynamic. Like, you know, there's. I can see it going both ways. You know, if you have been together for a while before you move in and, you know, you each have separate place, maybe one of your places has no kids or is no roommates, and it's very peaceful. It's very conducive to sex. Then it's like, yeah, okay, of course you're gonna go over to the person's house that is more conducive to you guys being together. So I could totally understand how it's like, yeah, like, we're having tons of sex. Like, you know, I'll go over to his place, or he'll come over to my place and we'll do it, or we'll go on a date. And, like, obviously we're going back to the place with no roommate or the no kids. And so then, yeah, once you move in together, it's like, oh, yeah, there isn't really that private place for us anymore. But it could also flip the other way for a lot of people where it's like, you know, maybe you haven't had the opportunity to be together that much because you're living in separate places. Maybe you're separated by certain distance, or your schedules don't quite overlap. So, you know, the only time you have sex is maybe when you go on a date once a week or something like that. And so then all of a sudden you move in together and the floodgates open. So it can just. It can totally go either way. And so I think it's. It's problematic when we have stories in our head of, oh, yeah, when you move in, you better start having sex twice as Much as you were before or like I should expect that all of a sudden it's just like sex all the time, everywhere.

Do you know that you say all of the sudden.

Do I?

You do. I pointed that out to you recently.

Oh, and did we look it up?

Yeah, because you insisted that it was all of the sudden.

All of a sudden.

All of a sudden.

Oh, man. Yeah. Every now and then I say something weird.

Okay, let's get back to their story. Usually it's me initiating because I'm starting to get frustrated with how much time has passed. I am also the only one that initiates hugs, kisses, etc. He's not a very touchy feely person. He's always been that way. So I wanted to stop here.

Starting to see some things.

Yeah. And talk about, like, the touchy feel, feely aspect. And I actually want to toss it over to you because I'm not the most touchy feely person either, which I think surprises a lot of people. They think, like, as a sex therapist, I don't know, I'm just touching people all the time. But she's not. I'm. I'm not the touchiest, feeliest person. You're definitely much more a fan of touching and cuddling and all the things. I like kissing more than you do.

But that's true. That is very odd.

I just thought about that as I said it and I was like, wait, that's kind of strange.

Yeah. What's up with that girl?

What's up with you?

But I like kissing.

Yeah, but I like it more than you. But I just don't. Like, I'm not a. Like I'm not a person who naturally thinks to go hug you or naturally, like if we're, you know, you're sitting on the couch, like to naturally go up and cuddle with you or something.

Yeah. You're just like, oh, I'm a hug you with my face. That's what you. That's what goes on in your head. Yeah.

A hug with your face.

I'm a hug you with my face.

I thought that you meant, like, I was trying to give you, like a facial expression that implied cuddling. And I was like, what is that?

I'm a hug you hard. Sorry.

Hug face me.

Let me rephrase. I'm a hug you with my mouth.

There you go. Okay, but looping back around to it, I want to ask you, like, do you remember what it was like in those early days when you started to realize, like, I'm not the most naturally touchy feely kind of person and what that felt like for you as somebody who is very touchy feely?

Yeah, I mean, it can feel, it can feel a bit lonely, I guess because it can feel a bit lonely and like I could feel a little bit needy because then all of a sudden I'm like, oh, like you just.

Said it again all of the sudden.

Because all of a sudden I'm going in for a hug or a cuddle and I am not getting that reciprocation back. And. And so then I can start to kind of turn inward and be like, oh, what's, what's up with me? Like, why am I, why am I being so needy?

Did you think that I wouldn't reciprocate or just that I wouldn't initiate?

Well, no, no, I guess it's, it's sort of, it's both because it's like, well, why am I the only one doing this? Am I so needy that I'm the one always doing this? Or, you know, or am I, you know, not. Is she not really liking this very much? So it can feel, you know, I could feel a little self conscious about that, I think. And then also just, yeah, feeling kind of alone, like, oh, does she not. I guess it can bring up questions of like, oh, is she not really into me in the same way that I'm into her?

Yeah, I can totally understand and respect that. I mean it's. We're definitely like in a conversation about love languages here, right? We're like, we all like to give and receive love in different ways and if we don't talk about these kinds of dynamics and it's very easy for us to miss each other. And so I know we didn't talk about this for a long time and it was probably something that you just kind of kept feeling more and more confused about, like why doesn't she want to and that kind of stuff. And I remember when we did talk about it, I was like, oh, interesting. Like that's not the way that I naturally show love, but if that's something that's meaningful to you, I'm happy to do it. And so it was like, I just didn't know that that was something that you wanted. So that's like one of my first questions that I would ask this of kind couple is like, has she communicated to him that I really love us being able to have this non sexual physical contact throughout the day? Like, it's what makes me feel really loved and cared for and to also like make a specific request within that, like, I would like you to initiate more physical contact with me.

Yeah. And then on the flip side, finding out from him what is his love language, because it's very likely that he may not be feeling particularly loved by her either.

If.

If her default is to go in with the hugs, kisses, and cuddles and stuff, and that's not really him. It's like they're both missing each other. And so. So it's just this. They're just kind of set up for failure. Like, she's like, I'm trying to love you. I'm trying to love you. This is going on in her own head. She's not saying. If she was saying this, it actually might help. But, like, is she saying this in her head? Oh, I'm. I'm trying to love you. I'm trying to love you in the only way I know how to. And he's like, what's going on? She doesn't seem like she really loves me very much.

So the thing that just fascinates me about the love languages is, like, yes, there are flaws with this model. It's not like, anything scientific or anything like that, but it's just so easy for us to not understand how our partner wants to be loved. Like, when you have a certain way that you like to be loved, it feels so natural, so meaningful, so special to you that you cannot fathom anybody wanting to be loved in a different way.

Yeah.

Like, for me, my love language is words of affirmation. We've talked about this in the podcast before. Like, Xander can make me melt with four words. And that feels so natural to me that I'm like, how could anybody not want that? And I've been in partnerships before where the person didn't show me love that way, and it was just like, how are you not doing this? It's the most basic thing. Like, why are you not giving this to me? So it's like, it just feels so strong for you that you don't even realize that you're doing the same thing to your partner.

Yeah. And I think it can be. Not to say that I'm special in any way as a physical touch person, but I wonder if this might be even more challenging for people whose default love language is physical touch. Because the way that we see love portrayed in the media, on tv, in movies, in books and all that stuff is you see all the other love languages. Like, you see people giving compliments, you see people giving gifts, and, you know, you see people providing, doing acts of service for others to Kind of like build that connection or, or whatever. But it's always, it's sealed with physical contact. It's like the kiss is the, is the cherry on top. It's the way that you really show and think about in a movie. Like, people, you might see people falling in love, but you don't know that they're in love until they kiss. Like, like the kiss is what seals everything. Or the showing them get. Getting a certain degree of physical is the way that we show that, ah, yeah, these people are together now. Or like, this is serious.

That's an interesting theory.

And so I think that for physical touch people, it can be easy to disregard the other love languages because you're like, oh, well, these are lesser than. Because, like, in a movie it wouldn't be like, oh, he gave her a bracelet. They must be in love. Right? Like, it would be like, he gave her a bracelet and then she kissed him. Okay, now it's happening.

That's, that's an interesting point there. Also, when it comes to touch as a love language, the typical gender breakdown that we see is that men are more often the ones who have touch as a love language. So given that she's a woman, I wonder if there's like this added dynamic for her of like, shouldn't he want to be, like, all over me, like, grabbing me, touching me, slapping my ass, kissing me? Like, you know, we, we have talked in the last couple of weeks about, like, Instagram reels that we've seen of like, oh, you know, my husband's always trying to grab me and touch me. So there might be like a little bit of sensitivity for her there. But yeah, I think the, the basic thing that I would want to explore with this couple is have you had a conversation about your love languages? And are you each making an active effort to love each other in those languages? And I think the love languages are a great first step towards getting out of a dead bedroom situation. Because one of the things that tends to come up for people is they're like, oh, well, I'm just not a naturally touchy feely person. And it's like the conversation ends there for them.

Yeah, that's like, yeah, that's the shutting it down down. There's nowhere to continue the conversation after that.

Yeah. And so when I'm working with a couple, I would always say, like, yeah, that's exactly the point of us having this conversation. Like, if you're not naturally a touchy feely person, you're going to have to make an active effort to Think about this more often. And to try to love your partner in the way. So it's not that there's. There's no problem with not having that be your love language, but you also don't use. You can't use it as like a. The conversation ends here. I'm never going to do it.

All right, I have a great example for why this doesn't work. Let's say that Vanessa and I just started dating, and I invite her over for dinner, and I'm going to cook her a really nice dinner. I cook her this beautiful plate of whatever. It doesn't even matter what it is. I've spent hours and hours doing it. I put it down for her and she goes, oh, I don't like that.

Oh, rude.

Like, yeah, like, well, like that's. Well, that. That would suck. But it's also super unhelpful if she just goes, oh, I don't like that. Like, I'm leaving. Like, what would be more helpful, right. Would be if she told me, like, oh, I don't like this ingredient. These are things that I like. Like, she's not setting me up for success. I'm also not setting her up for success. And maybe I didn't ask her what type of food she liked in advance, but. So there's always things that we could each do better. But it's like, it. It's not helpful to be like, no, I don't like this, and provide no other suggestion of, here's what I do like instead.

Well, I also think it's really unhelpful to say, like, I'm just not naturally like that. Like, there are so many things I do on a daily basis that I don't naturally want to do or don't naturally think of to do.

Yeah, I bet. I bet most people don't naturally wake up and be like, ah, work. I. Driving to the office. So natural. I've just had the instinct since. Since I was birthed, you know, I'm just. I've just been. I've been crawling towards the office every day of my life.

Yeah. I think saying, well, it's just not natural for me is the most bullshit excuse. Like, what you're actually saying is I just don't want to make any sort of effort.

Another thing that I thought was interesting, I haven't fully thought through this. I'm curious what you think Vanessa is. What I picked up on when I was reading this is that she is saying that the times. The very few times that they do have sex or like, the last. Whatever. A few times that they did have sex, however long ago that was, she's saying that she has basically only initiated because she's starting to get frustrated with how much time has passed. Yeah. I haven't heard her say anything about wanting sex because of anything about him or really even anything about her. Like, it's not about her desire. It's not about being into him. It's not about any emotional connection.

Yeah.

It's. I'm doing this because I'm frustrated. And when you are only doing something because you're frustrated, you're probably not putting out a very good vibe.

Oh, I have for sure initiated sex with you in this exact circumstance where I'm like, it's been a while now I'm mad that it's been a while. And I'm, let's do this. You haven't been the one to initiate. Now I gotta do it. And, like, you can pick up on that vibe. Like, it doesn't feel sexy. It doesn't feel enticing. It turns it into sex that's like, just crossing something off the to do list instead of a genuine connection between two people who love each other.

Yeah. And so then it's like, it actually. It ends up feeling like a chore to both people, but in different ways. For you, it's like. Like a chore that you want to get done. And then for me, on the receiving end, it's like. It's like a chore I really don't want to do. It doesn't feel comfortable. It doesn't feel safe. It feels kind of yucky and compromising. And it also feels depersonalized because it's like, you want to have sex with me or, like, slash, you. You want to use my body. And it doesn't have anything to do with me.

Yeah. It's like, we just have to get this done. And it feels like it's coming from pressure, from expectation, from disappointment. It feels like you've already lost, like, we're already behind, and now we gotta try to catch up rather than like, hey, I love you. I miss you. I want to connect with you.

Yeah. And. And. And I think that this is where I think a lot of people start to say this stuff around, like, oh, well, I think I want sex to just happen naturally. And I understand in this context why you would say that, because what you're thinking is, well, I don't want to have sex that is for ticking a box or to, like, so that you don't feel frustrated anymore. Like, I Want to have sex that's about me, that's about us. That's, you know, that is for fun. But instead of using those words, instead of going deep enough to think about like, oh, yeah, what are the reasons you do want to have sex? You go, oh, well, typically like, you know, random sex that you would have or spontaneous sex that you would have or whatever it is, or that we used to have. It was about all those things. So you say, yeah, well, I just want it to happen naturally. So I totally get it. I totally get it why you would say that in this situation. But there's actually some very clear reasons. Underneath all of it is like, yeah, I don't want to have sex that just feels like you're pissed about something, that it's not about me, it's not even about you. It's like just feeling that like we should for some reason where it's like, I want to have sex that, you know, I'm excited about. I want to have sex because I know you're attracted to me or because we feel connected or because you feel horny or because I feel horny.

Initiation is supposed to feel like an invitation. And initiation really is one of the areas where so many of us go wrong. We have not learned how to initiate properly. We don't know our partner's initiation style, which is very similar to the love language. It's a model that we came up with and it's really getting in the way of us having an active and pleasurable sex life. So we are gonna link something for you in the show notes. It's our newest course and it really walks you through in this very meaningful and powerful but also still very fun way. Like exactly what initiation is supposed to look like in a long term relationship. So we'll link that for you. It's an amazing course to check out and it can definitely help you get out of a dry spell or a dead bedroom situation.

All right, so before we move on, I think like the up to this point, obviously we have a very small, very few details at this point, but I think just from what I've heard that thing about that, you know, she's only initiating when she's feeling frustrated and also is sounds like she's starting to feel resentful about like being the only one to initiate other forms of physical intimacy. Hugs, kisses, whatever. The. The recommendation that I would have here is like we said, needing to talk about the love languages, but instead of focusing on the sex, like just I would say in general, never have sex because you're frustrated about how long it's been, that's not a good reason. And the other person will probably pick up on that, no matter how sneaky you think you're being about it. So instead I would try to find a way to focus on emotional intimacy, but that you still need to have that conversation because obviously you're missing each other in terms of the love languages stuff. So, you know, figuring out what is going to feel emotionally intimate to each of you and how you guys can each give that to each other. You know that feeling you get when you finally find the thing you've been searching for on the Internet after spending hours researching and reading thousands of reviews, you find it. This thing, whatever it is. Whether it's a custom surfboard, designer dog, hoodies, a niche thing from a wood shop in Prague. Believe me, we've looked for all these things ourselves. That thing checks literally all your boxes and it has five stars. Oh, and the icing on the cake, it arrives in just 48 hours. So why is it that you can get the most random, wonderfully reviewed thing from around the world in just two days? But if you want to see a good doctor, it can take forever to get an appointment. Not to mention, how do you know if they're even that good? Thankfully, there is a way. It's called zocdoc. A place to find and book great doctors who actually have amazing reviews, many with appointments available within 24 hours. ZocDoc is a free app where you can find amazing doctors and book appointments online. We're talking about booking appointments with thousands of top rated patient reviewed doctors and specialists. You can filter specifically for ones who take your insurance, are located near you, and treat almost any condition you're searching for. And if you want to dig deep, these doctors have all verified reviews from actual real living patients, not bots. And the average wait time to see a doctor that people book on Zocdoc is between just 24 to 48 hours. That's it. That's even faster than the 48 hour shipping I was talking about before. Often you can even score same day appointments. So once you find the doctor that you like, you book them immediately with just a few taps in the app. That means you don't have to wait awkwardly on hold with a receptionist. You don't even need to talk to anybody. I know the next time I am needing a doctor I am definitely going to be using Zocdoc. So go to Zocdoc.com pillow and download the Zocdoc app. For free. Then find and book a top rated doctor today. Many are available within 24 hours. That's z o c-o c.com pillow zocdoc.com.

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If you're having sex that is not great, where you are not satisfied, of course that's gonna affect your desire to be intimate with each other. And I'm saying of course, but it's something that most people don't really piece together. It's very easy for us to get into situations where we feel like we have a low sex drive or our partner has a low sex drive and we start getting anxious and freaked out about that and we don't recognize the connection between desire and enjoyment. But it's a very obvious and very clear one. If we can take that step back. If you are not enjoying the sex that you are having, you are not going to crave it. Like it doesn't make any sense to crave something that's not an enjoyable experience. So I had to say that it's obviously a dynamic that is not in play in this particular couple's story, but it is in play for so many other couples. So just wanted to leave that one there. Let's continue on. Though he is not comfortable and not is in all caps, he is not comfortable having sex while my kids are home or awake. By the time the kids are 100% asleep, it's usually 9pm and by then we are both exhausted. However, if he's not willing to do it during the day when the kids are home, I feel I'm at a loss. We could totally hide or go to a locked room. It's possible. But I respect he's not comfortable with the idea. I don't spend much time without kids as unfortunately breaks are few and far between. We used to always have sex when we had a babysitter, but even now that's becoming less frequent. Lots to unpack here. We did say already that kids were the number one most common reason that people gave for being in a dry spell or a dead bedroom situation. So let's start off with talking about not wanting to have sex when the kids are in the house. Xander, what do you think about this?

Well, obviously easy for me to say because I don't have kids that are in the house, but you know, I can think about times where say we've been at your parents house or at my parents house or we have friends staying with us or longer term house guests or whatever it is. And yeah, there is definitely something that comes up when people are around where you can feel like less open to something. However, I do feel like for us, you know, when we've had the experience of being at someone's house for a longer period of time or someone being with us for a longer period of time, at a certain point we're both like, like, okay, this is getting ridiculous. Let's just do it. Let's do it quietly. And yeah, maybe it's not quite as exciting or you don't get to kind of do all the things or make all the noise that you normally would, but sometimes you just gotta get it done. And I feel like whenever we've done that, it's generally a positive thing. We're both, neither of us feel like we regret that we made that decision at all. So yeah, if I, if I think about those situations and if I were to think about what if one of those situations became permanent, I. E. We had kids, we had a relative living with us full time. Like I would look, I wouldn't look at this like in the sort of negative way like oh well, guess I never get to have sex again. I would try to look at it in more of a problem solving Way of, okay, this is the situation that we are in. What can we do about this? It's maybe not going to be my ideal way to have sex. Hey, I could still think about what, you know, oh, you know, how could I put myself in situations to have the exact kind of sex I want to have? Whether that's, hey, we're going to go out and stay at a hotel tonight, or we're going to get a babysitter or whatever. But it's not okay to just be like, okay, cool, I'll just not do this thing at all until I can get my ideal conditions. Like, I would start thinking about, all right, what's the next best thing? How can I. How can I get more okay with this?

Yeah. If I was working with this couple, I would want to ask him, like, what are your fears about the kids being home or awake? Like, obviously, he is an incredibly compassionate and loving person. You know, we already talked about how special it is that he's coming in. He's raising these kids as his own. And so I would just want to, like, dig in with him. Like, I know that she's getting frustrated of like, dude, when else are we going to have it? But I think that there's probably something that he needs to speak to about this. Like, maybe some fears that are coming up for him of like, are we gonna psychologically damage the kids or is it disrespectful of me, or are the kids gonna resent me if they somehow hear me having sex with their mother? Like, there could be so many complex dynamics coming up for him coming in as this, you know, stepparent esque role. And also, like, not being the father of those kids, like, he may have missed, missed some of those crucial just developmental stages with kids of like, you know, those early days learning, like, what can we do? What can't we do? How, you know, it's just, yeah, he's kind of coming in in a later stage, and it's understandable to me that he's defaulting to, hey, let's be extra cautious about this.

Yeah. Or, you know, at the very least, you know, he maybe missed the super early stage where it's like, hey, you know, like, this is a baby. It doesn't. It's not gonna, like, like, know exactly what we're doing. And, you know, because I think a lot of parents obviously, you know, start having sex sometime in the first year of their child being born. And kind of, you know, it's like, you get back in the saddle, basically, you're like, oh, okay, yeah, we. We can do this. It's okay. Like, no one is. No one is dying. No one is being traumatized. But, hey, I mean, maybe he has. He also might have some of his own negative experience or maybe his own trauma from being a child. And, you know, who knows? Like, maybe who knows what happened. What. His experience with parents having sex or being exposed to whatever. Being exposed to sex or noises or whatever. He might have his own experience. I'm curious what that is.

Yeah, he needs to talk about this. I will say, though, as a therapist, there is no research showing that kids get traumatized by accidentally hearing their parents have sex. Of course, there are much more complex situations where the parents are just, like, not being thoughtful about it or exposing kids to, like, dangerous or, you know, just bad situations.

But, yeah, we're talking about some noises here and there. We're not talking about, like, screaming every single night.

Yeah, like, here and there, accidentally overhearing a little moan or a little squeak of the bed. Like, there's no evidence showing that this is harmful to children, so maybe hearing that helps him a little bit. Also, there are some very practical things that you can do to create more soundproofing, like playing the TV or white noise or music, having locks on the doors, you know, sound machines, all kinds of stuff you can do. So there are some practical things there. But I do think maybe there's just some conversations to be had. So I. With her, she's like, I respect that he doesn't want to, but I would encourage them actually to like. Like, lean into this and talk about it a bit more.

Yeah, I think just having an open conversation about it. And I. And I recognize that this could be challenging to start right now because you're already kind of deep into this thing where it. There's already this dynamic of, okay, he doesn't want to have sex when the kids are around. That basically leaves no other time to have sex, so we can't really have sex. Plus, I, you know, I'm the only one that's really initiating very few and far between. But. But it's still. It's me doing it. It's already this charged situation. So I do think that, yeah, this is a. This is a delicate conversation to be able to bring up, hey, what is coming up for you when you think about the possibility of having sex when the kids are around, where that conversation doesn't sound like, hey, dude, I know you don't want to do this, but I know that you know that I've been saying I would be okay with this. And like, I'm bringing it up, so, you know, if that feels really challenging, this would be a great couples therapy conversation to have. This would be a very. This would be a very normal thing to explore in a couple sessions with a therapist who can really help guide each of you through what are your experiences, what are your desires around this? How can we kind of bridge those gaps and understand each other better?

I also want to touch on the exhaustion part of it, because exhaustion is such a key component of why kids can get in the way of a couple's sex life. Like, you're just so tired and there's so little time for the two of you to connect with each other. So exhaustion could be in and of itself its own episode. But I wanted to just validate, like, it makes perfect sense that you're at 9:00pm like, okay, we finally have the chance. But no, it's just not gonna happen. Like, we wanna go to bed.

Yeah, we wouldn't have much or any sex in that situ. In that if that was our only window to doing it. Like, it just wouldn't both of us. When. When both you and I are exhausted, neither of us are thinking about sex.

Nope.

We're both like, get me into bed yesterday.

Okay, so I want to point out a couple of resources for you. One is episode 123, a parent's guide to Making Time for Sex and Intimacy. That's a great episode to listen to and we will also link in the show notes for you. Our course, Rediscovering Us Sex and Intimacy for Parents. That's a great, very practical course to go through. Exhaustion is a big part of that course. But I do think again, like, because this couple didn't have biological kids together, they kind of missed out on some of those steps of how parents create and maintain a sex life when kids come into the picture. So that could be a really great thing for them to go through.

You know, one more thing I just, just, I just thought of with this. And again, this is a limitation of, you know, we're only getting this, you know, a couple paragraphs from, from one of the people in this partnership. But it sounds a bit like this. What he said here is, I'm not, I'm just not comfortable having sex when the kids are home is actually sounding a bit similar in a way to that. I'm just not a very touchy feely person. It's like, it's, it's a shutting down of the conversation, not suggesting any alternative or opening a conversation. To any. Anything else. And. Yeah, I just wonder if this is a dynamic that's coming up a lot for him. I would guess he doesn't feel very comfortable talking about sex.

I have a communication tip that I just literally came up with in the moment as you said that.

Ooh.

Anytime you shut down an idea or a thought that your partner has, you have to offer an alternative.

Yeah. I mean, it's just. It's not. You're. It's not a very good partnership if. If it. If you're basically just saying no.

Yeah. You can't. You can't just say, like, it's fine to say no. It's fine to say, have boundaries and preferences and all the things, but, like, it can't just be. Nope. And that's the end of the conversation. Like, you gotta offer an alternative.

Yeah. I mean, it's. It's. It's. It's like the choosing a restaurant game where it's like, if you. If you're like, hey, do you want to go to this place? No. All right. You want to go to that place? No. You want to go to that other place?

That conversation is so triggering.

Yeah. So eventually, Vanessa and I got into. Into this thing. You know, we would. Went through that for a long time, and both got so frustrated and eventually was like, okay, if, you know, if I give a couple options and you're not open to any of them, then you get to come up with a new option. It's just not fair for one partner to be the one always suggesting things and the other partner saying, no, that is. That's not a real partnership.

Okay, back to the story. In the past, he would often take solo trips for golf, and when he came back, he would be a hundred percent all over me. In his words, distance makes the heart grow fonder. Could this be an issue? I do not go out. As I am a young working mom outside of work and my kids, I do not have energy for much. I don't have a friend group either. So I don't get out much or socialize only with him and his friends. Do I need to focus on myself. And in turn, it may help heal things between us, or a little time apart here and there may make things more interesting. I think she's onto something here for sure.

Yeah, definitely. I think she is. She's onto something both in terms of him and her. But I don't think this is. This isn't like, the one. Only, like, this won't solve the problem. I think they've. They've Kind of dug themselves into a bit of a hole where him going on a couple more golf trips or her going out of the house a couple times won't solve the problem, but this could be a great start.

Okay, well, here's what I find really interesting about this paragraph. Is she saying some things that are really sad, like, she doesn't have any friends, she doesn't have energy. She doesn't have, like, hobbies or things that she likes to do for herself. And I think that's true for so many moms. And I feel a lot of compassion for that. And I can also fully recognize that that's maybe, like, the reality of the situation she's in. Like, yeah, I've been raising these kids. I don't know if the. The parent of the children is involved or what, but, like, it sounds like she's been doing a lot on her own. So she's just sacrificed a lot of stuff for herself. But what's interesting is she's talking about maybe her finding other interests or friendships or having her own time to herself in the context of, will this make him like me more? Rather than, will this make me happier? Will this make me happier? And that makes me so sad because she deserves all of those things. She deserves friends, she deserves interest. She deserves time on her own where she can just be a human rather than mom or a partner.

Yeah, you deserve all those things, whether or not you're having regular sex with your partner.

Absolutely. And I think that this could also be an area where he could step up and support her. Like it. I do agree that in most relationships, like, when we have separate interests and hobbies and time apart, like, that is very valuable and important. Like, that's what helps keep the spark alive in part for us. Like, because then when you come back together, there's something to talk about and you have missed each other and you're not just, like, with each other 24 7. So I do think that having separate time could be really valuable. But again, it's not just in the context of, like, to having more sex. It's for her to be able to feel happier and more fulfilled too. So I think he could step up as a partner and support her in taking that time for herself.

Yeah, absolutely. But I think it's important to recognize that you, like, just separating yourselves in terms of, like, being away from each other isn't going to create emotional intimacy. It's going to give you a situation in which you have opportunities to perhaps discuss things that will build emotional intimacy. But it's not like, okay, cool, just each of you go away for a week and come back and this situation will be over. Yeah.

All right, next paragraph. I discovered he was masturbating often when I was not home. At first it didn't bother me, but then I became insulted, almost said, it seems like he has no desire for me, but yet still has the desire to orgasm. I spoke to him about this and he said that sometimes the mood comes up when I'm not home or he's too tired late at night. Okay, so masturbation in relationships is definitely a hot topic. We actually just did a reel about this. You can scroll back, you'll see it with like, it's just a shot of me sitting in bed. And we asked people to tell us in the comments, what do they think about the role of masturbating in a long term relationship. And that comment section popped off. People were really, really interested to talk about it and had some pretty strong opinions. So here are our thoughts about it. I think it's really important to recognize that the desire for masturbation is different from the desire for partnered sex. For most of us, masturbation is something that we can do quickly. We've figured out like exactly what we need to reach orgasm. And sometimes it doesn't even feel sexual necessarily. Like a lot of people will masturbate to have an orgasm so that they can get to sleep faster. Or it feels like a little stress relief, but it's not even like a. Yeah, it doesn't feel super sexual in the moment. And it's also obviously something that you're doing alone. It's like not complicated because there's not another person there with another body, another and set of needs and emotions and all of that stuff. So it's not a one to one thing. Like every time you're masturbating you're denying an opportunity for connection with your partner. Also, I do wanna mention that we both believe very firmly that each person is entitled to a relationship with their own body. And that connection doesn't go away simply because you're in a relationship. Like it's your body and you're allowed to explore it and bring pleasure to yourself. And also masturbation is positive in a lot of ways too. Like learning what you like, learning how your body works, getting better body confidence. So all that to say that masturbation does have a role in a healthy relationship, but obviously healthy is the keyword. Obviously it can get tricky in situations where you're masturbating but you're not having regular sex, or maybe you're turning your partner down for sex, but then you're going to masturbate, like regular, regularly. So our kind of rule of thumb here is that people should prioritize connection with their partner over masturbation. That's not a hard and fast rule. That's not like never masturbate, only ever have sex with your partner. But I think, like, being able to invite your partner to be intimate with you in those times where you're feeling like maybe a little bit of desire for masturbation. Like, see if you might be open to connecting with your partner in some way. And there are some nice gray areas here. Like one of the best things you could do, like let's say you want to masturbate, but it's really more for some of those kind of non sexual reasons and you're not really wanting to be intimate with your partner. Mutual masturbation. We have a whole podcast episode about that too. So definitely scroll back and check that out. I can't remember the number off the top of my head right now, but that can be a great middle ground of like, I'm still masturbating and having that experience with myself, but it's still some connection between the two of us. Okay, next part of the story. I've tried to talk to him about all of this multiple times and that I worry that if we aren't having a sex life, he will look elsewhere or that the longer we go without it, the harder it is to reconnect. He says he's simply old and tired, sex isn't a priority, and that he loves me regardless. Xander, what do you think about his opinion about their sex life?

I call, like, shenanigans.

Oh, shenanigans.

I call shenanigans on, on some of it, it sounds. My perspective, having read through all of this, is that I think he's really uncomfortable talking about a lot of this and he wants to. He's done a lot of things to just to try to shut down the conversation. I think that, yeah, if you set your life up in a certain way to make sex not really, not really feasible for you, then, yeah, you're not gonna want it that much. But I mean, the, the, the confounding variable here is that I don't. It's not really that sex isn't a priority because he is masturbating sometimes. He obviously does have some desire for that physical release. So I, I don't think it's. You're not just old and Tired. I think that's just, like, he thinks that's a. A funny thing that he can say to kind of brush the issue under the rug.

Yeah. Like, the question that came up for me when I read that is, like, is he happy, though? Like, there's a big difference between saying, like, hey, this is just my sex drive. Like, I feel happy. I feel satisfied. I'm good with what's going on between the two of us. I don't think he's saying that. Like, saying sex isn't a priority is very different from saying, I am satisfied and happy with what our sex life looks like exactly as it is. Right. And also, he loves me regardless. Like, saying regardless implies that, like, yeah, there's something going on, rather than, like, no, I love you, and I'm happy with things the way they are. So I think, like, yeah, I agree with you. To me, I'm just getting, like, complete and utter discomfort. Like, he's communicating back with her a little bit, but I think he's just really scared to get into it. And on her end, like, kudos to her for continuing to open up the conversation. I really praise her for that. I know that having these conversations can be tricky. And at the same time, I see these little things that she's doing in these conversations that are not particularly helpful.

She's not setting herself up for success.

She's not setting herself up. So she says she told him, I worry that if we aren't having sex, he will look elsewhere.

That's not about her.

Yeah. So. And she's creating this, like, weird dynamic around it. So, like, just listen to these two sentences. If I tell Xander something like, you know, hey, I'm finding myself, like, wanting us to make more time and energy to connect with each other. Like, I'm really missing you and wanting to spend more time with you, versus, I'm worried about our sex life, I think you're gonna look elsewhere. Right. Like, those are two very different conversations. If I bring up you looking elsewhere, you're gonna immediately get defensive and just say, like, oh, I'm not looking elsewhere, and do you really think I would cheat on you? And, you know, all this stuff, versus if I approach you from a place of saying, like, I miss you, and I'm feeling disconnected, and I want us to talk about how we can have more time and more energy to just focus on us. Us. It's a totally different conversation. Right. So I would give her. If I was working with her, I would give her some communication pointers about, like, you know, it's it's fine to have those fears that come up. It's understandable. But when you bring those fears into the conversation in that way, it just sends the conversation in a totally different direction from what you're actually wanting.

Yes. She's, she's raised two fear based things that are not actually about, that aren't really about her or her desire or really about him either. Like, it's like, I worry that like, you know, infidelity is going to happen and I worry that it's going to be hard for us to reconnect. She hasn't said anything about her wanting.

Yeah.

To have that physical intimacy with him. That it's important to her that she, that she's curious if it's important to him. And so I'm rereading this and I'm like, actually he, I think he sufficiently answered her question.

I think he actually old and tired to look elsewhere, babe.

I think he, he literally answered in, in actually a really good way what she said. She said, I'm scared you're gonna go somewhere else and I'm scared it's gonna be harder for us. And so he addressed both of those. Hey, I, I, this is not important to me. I love you. I love you regardless.

Yeah.

Like, and you know, it's, no, it's, it's not going to be harder for us to reconnect because like, it's just not that much of a priority to me. So she asked the wrong question.

Yeah.

Of him. So, yeah, it's like, you can't really blame him for that. He's, he, you know what, he might even be hearing from her. Like, I'm not even sure she wants to have sex with me. Oh yeah, she's, she is, she's wanting to have sex with me because she thinks that she should. She thinks that that's what I want.

Yep.

And so he's trying to assuage her, be like, oh, no, no, it's not really that important. It's fine. Like, he might even be thinking she doesn't, she's not really that into that. I mean, God, he might be thinking she's so busy. Like, she's super busy. She doesn't have any time for anything. Like, she doesn't even have like time for hobbies or to like go out with people. So like, why would I, you know, why, why would I be pushing her for this? And he also is probably kind of seeing the world a bit through his own eyes. Like if he doesn't want to have sex when the Kids are around. He's thinking, well, God, the kids are around all the time. Like, when would we even have time to do it anyway? He might even think he's doing her a solid here.

Ooh, okay. Continuing on, I, on the other hand, I'm feeling like if we can't connect on a deeper sexual level, it will all fall apart. I'm worried that this is going to be the case for the rest of our lives. And I'm not sure if I can be happy in a sexless relationship. It hurts my feelings that he doesn't seem to have a desire to do more with me. It's starting to make me feel extremely insecure about myself, which I shouldn't be, as I think I am in my prime.

Oh, this is interesting. So here she is starting to describe actually what it is like for her, what she actually feels.

But just the tip. Like, really the majority of what she's saying is it's not actually personal. Like, she's just worried that, oh, if we don't have sex, it's all going to fall apart. He doesn't seem to want to do more with me. He's making me feel insecure. But she doesn't really talk about, like, what is her actual desire when it comes to their sex life. I mean, she does say, I'm not sure if I can be happy in a sexless relationship.

Yeah, she's starting to get behind that, clearly is. She wants sex. She likes sex.

Does she, though? Because, like, that to me, if you can't be happy, I hear so much, like, pressure and, like, internalized pressure and expectation. Like, I feel like she's. She's like, you know, well, couples are supposed to have a good sex life, and it's a bad thing if you don't have a sex life. A good sex life, which I totally agree with. And she's kind of operating more from that place of, like, we're not where we should be. But I. Other than this tiny little part, like, I'm not sure if I can be happy. I haven't really heard her talk about what it is that she wants and what does sex give her. What is that intimacy and that connection that she feels? What is she wanting to feel from her partner and from the connection that the two of them share? So if I was her therapist, I would really encourage her to dive into this and, like, what is it that you truly want here? And then if she's able to identify those things, I just want to help her make this so much more personal. And I Think once she has that understanding for herself of what she's looking for and what she needs and what is it feels like to have those needs met, I think she'll be able to communicate with him so much more effectively.

Yeah, I mean, this gets back to what we were talking about when we were talking about the love languages conversation. And like, part of that conversation is being able to explain to your partner, not only this is my love language, but this is how it makes me feel when I receive love that way. This is what my experience is like because only then is your partner able to realize, ah, I can relate with that experience. Experience. That's the experience I have when I receive love in this way. And that helps make that connection of, ah, okay, so this isn't my natural way to give it, but if, if I can give it in this way, that's how it's going to make you feel. And then I can, I can relate with that. I can connect with that. Yeah, I want you to feel that way. That's, that's like the outcome that I'm looking for. So I'm willing to do that. And you know, hopefully over time you develop a habit where that happens more, you know, more regularly without you having to prompt yourself to do it. But I just think it's this, the same thing here is he. It sounds like she hasn't shared with him any reasons why she wants to be having sex with him. She's shared, she's initiating out of frustration. She's saying all these things that, you know, that she doesn't want to have happen that aren't really about her very much. So he doesn't have any connection to, like, he doesn't have any reason to want to do it with her, to give her anything positive. It's only like, oh, well, you need to do this so that these negative things don't happen.

Yeah.

So he goes, oh, well, I'll just tell you right now, yeah, those negative things aren't going to happen. Don't worry about it.

Okay. And she goes a little bit deeper in this next section too. I'm often resentful or bitter towards him, which then causes fights. I admit I make unnecessary comments at times to pick these fights. In turn, this pushes him away more as he understandably isn't turned on by my nagging regarding the situation. So I think it's just kind of more of the same type of things. I want to empathize with her. It does feel like she's doing a lot more of the work than he Is that's actually the next section. And I understand, like, sometimes just getting so frustrated with your partner that you resort to all the bad communication stuff that, you know, you shouldn't be doing. But, yeah, if it's just turning into these, like, you know, unnecessary comments and picking fights, again, all that's doing is creating more distance and making it feel harder to reconnect.

Yeah. I would imagine that for him, right now, the topic of sex feels very unsafe.

Yeah.

It's initiated out of frustration. You know, there's all these sort of. There's negative vibes around it. There's all these, like, oh, you know, if we don't do it, you're gonna cheat on me. If we don't do it, you're not gonna be happy. Or if we don't do it, like, we're not gonna be in a happy relationship. And then, you know, oh, like, I'm picking fights with you about it. I could. I can totally understand. For him, it's like, this is an unsafe place to be. I need to stay away from this topic.

Yeah.

As much as I possibly can.

Yeah. You know, another resource that I think would be really helpful for this couple is our book, Sex Talks the Five Conversations that Will Transform youm Love Life. It goes over these five conversations that we think are so crucial. And there are also a lot of incredible communication tips. There's a whole chapter that's literally just like, how to be a Better Communicator. So we'll link that for you in the show notes because that can be a great starting point, too. So here's the last bit of what she says. I feel like I'm the only one trying to improve things. I just want us to be happy, maybe be intimate at least once a week. And for him to kiss or hug me sometimes without having to ask for it. I feel like he doesn't understand how bad this is, despite me trying to talk to him. So, again, just wrapping this up, like, with a lot of the same dynamics that we've been talking about throughout the episode, maybe be intimate at least once a week is so interesting to me because, again, it feels like it's more about what we're supposed to do. Like. Oh, yeah, like, that's a respectable.

That's a respectable number, right?

Yeah. Rather than, like, how do you want to feel between the two of you? What is that intimacy like when you have it? I do like the. For him to kiss or hug me sometimes without having to ask for it. I think that's specific. That's fair. That's a good request. But, yeah, overall, it's like, I'm just. I'm wanting her to explore those more personal reasons that are coming up for her.

Yeah. And I think that if you can explore those more personal reasons and you can start to share those with him, then, yeah, then he's much better set up to be understanding the extremity of the situation. I'm not saying this is how it is for him. I don't know what his experience is. He might just be burying his head in the sand. But based on a lot of the things that you've described in here, I think it is totally possible that he doesn't understand the extremity of the situation. He's. He actually thinks it's not a very extreme situation. He thinks. He thinks he's doing you a solid by telling you, oh, yeah, no, don't worry. I'm good. Yeah, like, you don't. Like. Yeah, you don't want sex. It's fine. Like, we're. I'm fine with this minimal amount of sex that we're having. I'm masturbating. It's all good. I'm not gonna cheat on you. Everything is fine between us. Like. Like, it's cool. And so, yeah, I'm like. I guess. Yeah. How would. How would he know how extreme the situation is? Because it doesn't sound like you shared yet, like, that Being in a sexless relationship feels like it could be a deal breaker to you. It feels like you're missing all of these very important things that you still need to figure out. What are those very important things to you emotionally and sharing that with him, and I think that would give him a much better picture. Oh, yeah, I see. These are. These are some really important things that. That are understandable that one would want in a relationship, and I can. And if. And if we're not, you know, I'm not fulfilling those, that could be a problem.

Okay. One final little tip, though. Don't bring in deal breaker into the conversation. Not the first conversation.

No, no, no, no. Definitely not. You want to give them a. You want to give them a chance to understand what those things are for you. Those feelings that you feel like you are missing that you're feeling like you're needing. He needs to understand what those are. And, I mean, I think you wouldn't want to bring up the sort of, like, deal breaker type thing or like, I don't know if I can be in a relationship like this until it's been clear to him for a While what those things are and then. And that he's regularly not able to deliver those things.

So I would start with the love languages conversation. I would have her start expressing, exploring, like, what is it that she really wants out of a sexual relationship? And get very specific and personal with it. And then once they've had some success with creating more emotional and non sexual physical intimacy, like outside of the bedroom, then have a conversation about what she's looking for more of when it comes to their sex life in particular, and really give him the opportunity to respond from that place of truly understanding, understanding, like, what it is that she's looking for and wanting to feel. All right, well, that wraps up our second Dead Bedroom episode. We really want to know if you want us to continue going with this theme. We obviously have no shortage of these stories, so please come over.

We can crank these out.

Come on over to Instagram at Vanessa and Xander. Let us know what you thought of the episode and if you want us to continue doing more. Obviously, no one's gonna resonate with every single detail of one couple's story, but we hope that there were plenty of details within this that you were like, ooh, that comes up in my relationship. Or it's slightly different for me, but I can take the advice and kind of tweak it, so come let us know. And like I mentioned in the episode, we're gonna link a bunch of stuff for you in the show. Notes to the episode the Art of Initiation. Rediscovering Us. That was the course for parents and our book, Sex Talks. We obviously covered a lot of ground in this episode, and we want to encourage you to check out our website for even more details. It's the number one place to find all of our courses guides, podcast episodes, anything else you need. We even have a page full of freebies about spicing things up and improving your relationship. All you have to do is head over to vmtherapy.com and start exploring.

All right, well, that's it for today's episode of Pillow Talks. Thank you so much for listening. Join us again next week when we talk about intercourse and why you're doing it wrong.