EPISODE 144: We’re In Couples Therapy

There were times that I felt annoyed at Xander for even suggesting that we go to therapy. Yeah, like, and again, it's like, even with my belief in therapy, even as a therapist myself, there was that little voice in the back of my head where I would hear Xander say, like, can we go to therapy to get help with this? And it would just sound like an insult to me. Hello and welcome to the Pillow Talks podcast. We're your hosts, Vanessa and Zander Marin. I'm a sex Therapist with over 20.

Years of experience and I'm just a regular dude. We share the ups and downs in our relationship while giving you step by step techniques for improving yours.

Make sure you subscribe for your weekly double date full of totally doable sex tips, practical relationship advice, hilarious and honest stories of what really goes on behind closed bedroom doors, and so much more. It's the sex education you wish you'd had. Thanks to Dipsea for supporting Pillow Talks. Get an extended 30 day free trial when you go to dipseastories.com pillow and thanks to Babbel for supporting our show. Babbel's 10 minute lessons make it the perfect way to really learn a new language on the go. Here's a special limited time deal for our listeners to get you started right now, get 55% off your Babbel subscription. But only for our listeners@babbel.com pillow surprise. We are back in couples therapy.

Damn. Couples therapist and husband in couples therapy.

We sure are.

Who would have thunk it?

Yeah, we're doing a very different kind of episode today. We have been in couples therapy for the last few weeks and we thought, you know what, I think we want to share this information with our friends and talk about it.

Yeah, I mean, I think it's fun. It's nice to get to share a little snippet of our life every now and then on the podcast. I know we talk just randomly about things that are going on, but in not that much detail. So it's nice to check in every now and then.

Yeah. So we're going to be going there in this episode. We're going to talk about why we're in therapy, how we found a therapist, how it's to going going and how to ask your partner to go to therapy with you.

Yeah. Because I mean that that's an important consideration. I think that's a thing that stops a lot of people from going to therapy. Is that worry of like, oh my God, how could I possibly ask my partner to do this? And hey, you know, it wasn't like it wasn't like this easy slam dunk situation for us to even get into therapy. Like, it's something that we all struggle.

With and we'll tell you all about it in just a second.

We will. But first we gotta get into our review of the week. Absolutely love this podcast. I originally heard Vanessa on we can do hard things and when I found out she had her own podcast, I got very excited. In past relationships, I've never been comfortable talking about not just sex, but other topics in a relationship. I started this podcast in the summer as I was getting into a new relationship. I told my now boyfriend about the podcast and I've sent him a couple of episodes that sparked my interest too, which also started great conversations between us. I then purchased their book and immediately loved it. I'm not much of a reader either, and we even discussed topics based out of that too. I am now getting more comfortable communicating in my relationship and increasing my interest on sex, thanks to Vanessa and Xander. I definitely recommend their podcast and book. You definitely won't regret it.

Oh, thank you so much for this wonderful review. Reviews are the best way for pillow talks to grow. So if you are willing to help us reach more people, we would be so grateful if you took 60 seconds to leave a and we do a giveaway every week as our way of saying thank you. So here's how it works. Go to the main Pillow Talks page on Apple Podcasts, scroll to the bottom and you'll see the review section there. Leave a review and you are automatically entered into the giveaway every single week going forward. So if you hear your review read in an episode, email us@infomtherapy.com and you will get to choose your prize. Okay, so let's get into it.

Yeah. How the heck did we get here?

Let's start off by talking. Why are we in couples therapy? And I guess I'll also back this up a bit to say that this is not our first experience in couples therapy. No, we did some couples therapy back in the beginning of our relationship. We talk about it a little bit in our book, sex talks, the five conversations that will transform your love life. We were, you know, just struggling with mismatched sex drives with the spark fading in our relationship, really, you know, not knowing what to do. Like, despite me being a sex therapist and, you know, part of this field, like, just feeling like I didn't have any practical tools.

Yeah. And I think and us butting heads a lot around that and just feeling like we were going around in circles. Honestly, like kind of the same old argument over and over. Didn't feel like we were getting anywhere other than both of us feeling burnt out about that.

Yeah. So it's not our first time in therapy.

Yeah, I mean, we've also been, we've been to like sessions here or there since then as well. And yeah, so we've been in couples therapy a couple of times. We've seen a couple different couples therapists. Wow.

How many times can you say couple in one sentence?

A couple couples, couples.

So this time around, we have a very specific logistical question within our business that we wanted support on.

So it was basically like intersection of business and personal, right?

Yeah, it's kind of this, like, should we do this thing and if so, how would we do it and what might the impacts of doing it be? So this was something that we have talked about on our own a lot. Like, you know, we've had a lot of conversations about it, kind of gone back and forth a little bit. But both of us got to the point where we were just feeling like we wanted some support, like somebody to help us, guide us through these conversations and make this decision.

Yeah, it would be helpful to have some help.

So I want to be really honest about our journey to starting it though. Xander was the first one to suggest that we go to therapy and I did not want to go.

Yeah, she didn't.

I really didn't want to go.

It's true, it's true. And I guess that kind of like, I don't know, maybe breaks the typical gender stereotype or probably is, you know, the opposite experience of probably many people in our community listening.

Well, and also just because I am a therapist, you would think like the therapist would be the one who wants to go to therapy and the non therapist partner would be like, I don't know, can't you just keep that your job and like that not have to involve us. So I want to, like, I want to be really vulnerable and honest and share why I didn't want to go. So there are a lot of different layers and pieces of it here. The first one is that despite being a therapist myself and believing so deeply in therapy, like I really and truly believe everybody should do therapy at least once in their lives. I think the world would be a much better place if we all did therapy.

Like probably more than once in your life.

Oh yeah, no, I'm saying at least once. I think that therapy is an incredibly valuable resource and I'm really glad to see attitudes towards therapy changing so much. Like Gen Z has Much better attitudes about therapy than our millennial generation or any generation before that to come. Like, now Gen Zers think it's an attractive thing if somebody says that they are in therapy even on their dating profile or on their first date or something like that. But anyways, I'm a therapist. I believe in it very deeply. And I've also had a lot of really negative and painful experiences personally with therapy. And it's just been. It's been really hard for me to navigate, like, this thing that I believe in so much and do, you know, as a therapist versus what my experiences have been as a client. You know, I've had just one therapist who just straight up was not a good therapist. Like, very basic things, like forgetting my name, forgetting details of my story.

Yeah, like asking you to retell things. And it's like, wait, like, we spent a whole session talking about this.

Yeah. Like, in pretty egregious ways. And then I had experiences with two other therapists that I worked with each of those therapists for a very long time, like, multiple years, and ended up. I don't wanna, like, go into all of the details of what happened, but basically, like, with both of those therapists, they ended up hurting the therapeutic relationship and my feelings also in some, like, pretty profound ways. And I think, like, as a therapist, I can. As a therapist myself, I can kind of take myself out of the client seats and say, like, that was a very inappropriate thing for you to do. Nothing like illegal or anything like that. But just like, yeah, it was. It was hurtful to me. Like, ways that they didn't quite recognize my feelings in the experience, I think. And that was again, just like, a really, really painful experience to have to grapple with. And I. I don't want anybody listening to this to get scared, to think, like, oh, my God, like, what kind of stuff happens in therapy? I don't want to go, like, there's already so much stigma against therapy and so many nerves and fears about it. So I don't. I'm not saying this to Fear Monger and say, like, you gotta be careful. Like, the vast majority of people have really positive experiences in therapy. I'm just trying to share to, like, give the context of why I was feeling so resistant. So, like, the last time that I ended therapy was a couple of years ago, and my heart still hurts. Like, my heart. Yeah. Still, like, really hurts about that experience. And so it's just been the idea of starting it up again. While I've had, like, my own curiosities about exploring Things in personal therapy, like things that I would have loved to explore with you. There's has been this feeling of like, I don't want to get my heart hurt again. I mean, it's, it's very similar to dating in a certain sense. You know, like you get your heart broken and there's that. That fear of like, I don't want to put myself out there and get hurt again.

Yeah, you've been jilted.

So that has been a big piece of it. Another big piece that came up for me is feeling like we could solve it on our own. Like the question that we're grappling with, it's pretty straightforward. Like. Yes, there are layers to it. There are, you know, things to talk about. But yeah, this sort of almost. I wouldn't say it was pride, but just this feeling of like, it's so straightforward, like we can just talk about it ourselves. And also, I have a lot of confidence in our communication. You know, you and I have worked on our communication a lot. We're able to talk about really tough things. We've worked through like tough issues before. And so I, you know, we would. And we've had so many conversations about this that I sort of had this feeling of like, yeah, we can keep doing this ourselves. We don't need to bring anybody else in. We don't, we don't need therapy. That's what I think is like the biggest thing that comes up for so many people.

Yeah, I mean, I think that what you just described is one of the major blockages that most people have who don't get into therapy is one or both partners being like, well, hold on, we, we should be able to solve this ourselves or I think we can. Or oh, well, okay. Well, we've had, you know, we've had like four bad conversations about this and two okay conversations about this. So if we could just get the odds a little bit back in the better conversations favor, then like, will be okay. And. Yeah, but I think this just gets at such. I mean this is, I'm curious, you know, if people in other countries relate with this. I think this is such like a societal thing for Americans. It's like extreme self reliance. I mean, that's kind of.

Oh yeah.

Part of the fabric of American society from sort of like the push west frontier times. Even like the, the concept of like, you know, how people came to, you know, America, white people came to America from Europe. This sort of like self reliance, we're going to do it ourselves kind of thing. And that's Just so deep in the way that we are raised. I think it's. I mean, that's one of the huge things that gets in the way of people going to therapy. It's just like, well, I shouldn't need that. I should be able to figure it out on my own. And somehow if I'm able to figure it out on my own, it's worth more. Even though the outcome is exactly the same. Actually, the outcome is worse when you do it on your own, because you are getting one out of one viewpoint. You are not. Your viewpoint is not being challenged. Like, nobody else is being like, oh, well, have you considered this perspective? Have you considered that perspective? And especially a therapist who's seen tons of people probably for similar things that can be like, well, here's my perspective, and, like, here's what, you know, what? I've seen, like, 10 other ways of looking at this. And when you do something all yourself, like, you're just relying on you, and you are only one perspective. So it's not better.

I think that there's also, like, as a therapist myself, that actually contributed to the feeling, or it's like, I know, you know, I know the sorts of questions that a therapist would ask us, and I know how we need to, like, express our thoughts and feelings about it. So in a weird sort of way, it was like, I don't need anybody. Like, I know the therapy things.

Yeah. Or. Yeah. Kind of like a doctor is like, oh, well, why would I go see another doctor? I can diagnose what's going on. You know, I. I don't know if doctors are allowed to prescribe stuff for themselves. Probably not, but, like, I know. I know what's wrong with me. I can just get another doctor to prescribe me the medication I need and, like, that's all. I don't need them telling me, you know, what I already know.

Okay. Another thing that came up for me, I just want to be really honest about this, too. Like, despite this being a pretty practical issue on the surface, I also knew, like, there are layers here.

Yeah.

You know, again, as a therapist, it's like people come in and they oftentimes have these very, you know, practical things that they're wanting to talk about.

The presenting issue. There's a word for this. People like, you call it a presenting issue. It's what they present you with, and it's called a presenting issue. Because very often the real issue is not the presenting issue.

It's never the thing. The thing that couples think they're fighting about. It's never the thing. So I knew. It's like, yes, I can say to myself, it's a straightforward thing. But, like, there are layers. Stuff's gonna come up. And to be totally honest, like, I didn't really wanna do that work. It just felt like it's gonna be hard. It's gonna take effort. Like, I just. I have a lot of other things going on in my life. Things are good between the two of us. Like, it wasn't. It also wasn't causing enough pain to feel, you know, worth it. And I think that's another trap that we fall into. And we'll come back to this theme a little. I think so many people, we wait until things feel really bad, and then it's like, okay, fine, now I'll get some help. Whether that's mental help, physical help, like, emotional, anything like that. Like, we wait until the pain is super bad.

Yeah. Or in the given moment, you're like, oh, well, this isn't that bad. It's like, okay, we got in a fight about it a couple weeks ago, but things are stable now. It's not that bad. I can deal with this. But, yeah, I also, you know, getting back to what you're saying about, you know, you knew that deeper things would probably come up. I also knew that there were probably deeper things that would come up. And, you know, and that was one of the reasons why I wanted to go to therapy was I had a pretty good idea that, yeah, this is sort of on the surface, like a logistical type of thing. But, you know, the reason why it is a logistical issue is probably because there's some deeper things that are going to come up. And, you know, it'd be nice for those to come up in a more controlled environment, you know, with the support of someone that can kind of help, gently guide us through it.

I will also say therapy is a fucking hassle. Like, even on my best days, Even on my best days when I love it, like, therapy is a hassle.

Yeah.

It's expensive, you know, it's time consuming. You're all the steps of it, like finding a therapist. You have to make sure that you like that therapist and they, like, resonate with you. It's a good fit. You have to make sure their schedule works with yours. You have to get to. To and from appointments. You also have to do the appointments themselves. Like that. That time. You have to spend time, like, getting a therapist up to speed to understand what the story is. Like, you're not doing one single session to, like, fix the thing and yeah, of course, like, spending the time actually resolving the issue and getting to a point where you feel like, okay, we've, like, we've done the thing, we're ready to. To take a break or to stop for now or whatever it is. Like, it's a hassle. Therapy is a really big hassle. And I do think it's important that we acknowledge the challenge of it. Like, it's not an easy thing. And also, there are a lot of other logistical things that come up for other people. Like, a lot of people live in places where there aren't therapists or there isn't a therapist that specializes in the thing that you need help with, or.

You get to drive like 40 miles or something or drive, you know, two hours. Like, that's, That's a huge barrier to entry.

Yeah. So even, you know, we are very lucky to live in a place where there were tons of therapists and people had availability, but it's really hard for a lot of people.

Oh, yeah. And I mean, you know, like, I remember back, like, during the beginning, middle of the pandemic, like, it was nearly impossible to find therapists. Therapists were so busy because so many people were having mental health struggles and just all kinds of struggles. And, you know, fortunately, I guess we're in a time now where it's a bit easier to find a therapist. But yeah, it's like, who knows, Based on what's going on in the world, everyone might be busy.

The expense issue is really interesting too. Like, being on either side of it myself, I think that the vast majority of therapists are dramatically undercharging for their services. Being a therapist is fucking hard. You have to be so present every single moment of the session. Like most jobs, I think you don't have to be super present for most of it. Or, like, you're kind of like you're doing mindless things. Or you can check in and out here. There.

Yeah. Your focus can kind of wax and rain.

When you're a therapist, you have to be laser focused the entire time. 50 minutes or an hour and 20 minutes, depending on how you do your sessions. Like, you have to be there fully present, fully paying attention, and that's hard.

Yeah. And you're face to face with the person who's talking to you. There's no, like, there's no phoning it in.

No, you cannot phone it in. It's so obvious if you are. Plus, like, all the training that we have to go through, like, years and years of school, years and years of working for Free or really low cost. The cost of school itself. Like, it's a lot. And therapists can't work 40 hours like, most therapists. If you have 20 clients a week, that's a pretty full load. Like, most therapists would not go 30 clients or above. Like, that's nuts.

Just the amount of that level of focus. Yeah.

And being able to remember everybody's details, too.

I would struggle so hard with 20 different people.

Like, that's so much.

Yeah. Like, the, like, intimate details of their life. And, like. Yeah. I mean, just. I can. I can imagine how easy it would be to just mix up, like, one little, like, oh, like your husband Roger. That story that client A told me three weeks ago. I can. I'm like, I'm seeing client B, and I'm like, oh, yeah, yeah. Like, you know, when your sister. Blah, blah, blah. And it's like, oh, shit. Yeah. No. Yeah.

So it's like, I want therapists to charge more. I want them to be compensated fairly for all of that energy and time and effort and. And also, like, they do an amazing job. Like, they really help people, like, change people's lives. And on the other hand, as a paying client, it's like, wow, therapy is so expensive and it's so inaccessible.

It adds up, like, you know, session after session often.

I mean, we're. We're paying almost $1,000 a month to do therapy. Like, we're in California. Prices are a little bit higher. Obviously, they vary, like, all across the country, but in general, like, that's a pretty fair rate for couples therapy these days. And, like, $1,000 a month, that's not an insignificant amount of money for the average person. Like, that's completely undue.

That will completely break your budget.

Yeah. So I just need to do that little rant there because it's just tough. It's tough to, like, make something so accessible, but also sure that people are being fairly compensated for a really tough job. So, anyways, that's. That's our experience right now. But going back to, you know, Zander suggesting. Being the first one to suggest going to therapy, like, I also want to say there were times that I felt annoyed at Xander for even suggesting that we go to therapy.

Yeah.

Like, again, it's like, even with my belief in therapy, even as a therapist myself, I. There was that little voice in the back of my head where I would hear Xander say, like, can we go to therapy to get help with this? And it would just sound like an insult to me.

Yeah. And I mean. And I was being super careful. Because I knew, you know, I know about this history. I know that it is a. I know it's a tricky subject because of, you know, what your. Your experiences have been. And so, yeah, you know, it was me kind of tiptoeing around it for a while.

I think that just goes to show you how strong of a stigma there is against therapy. That even as a therapist, my gut reaction to can we go to therapy? Was like, this is an insult. This is a bad thing. It's like a sign that something's wrong with the relationship. Like that. That was the knee jerk reaction. So my. My rational adult brain could kick in after that and say, like, this is not a bad thing. It's a great thing, actually, that he's asking. Like, it would be really helpful. But, like, that knee jerk initial reaction was like, oh, no, I don't want to. So I wanted to share all this because I can just really relate to other people out there who might be feeling very resistant to therapy. Whether it's, you know, that you really should be doing some individual therapy, but you just don't want to, or your partner's been asking you to go to couples therapy and you just don't want to. I get it. And I wanted to share that to encourage people that, like, look, I was in that same position too, and I came around to the idea of it. And spoiler alert, I'm so fucking glad that we're doing it. We'll talk a little bit more about our experiences in a moment. But I'm really, really happy that we're doing it.

Me too.

So if you're feeling resistant to therapy, it is okay. It's understandable to be resistant. There are a lot of things that it makes perfect sense to be resistant about. And. And it is also worth it. It's absolutely worth it. So obviously, I did eventually come around to the idea of going to therapy.

You more than came around. You really impressed me, actually.

Thank you. Okay, so there were a bunch of different variables that came into play for me. The first one was that ultimately, like, I respected that you wanted to go, like, you. And I really take this perspective in our relationship that if something matters to you, it matters to me and vice versa. And I think that's a really healthy perspective for all couples to take on. Like, if it matters to you, it matters to me.

Yeah, I mean, I think that, you know, I had, like I said, I had been. I had been tiptoeing around it a bit for a while, and I think what actually happened was you and I, we were like, in a totally random argument about something totally different. And I think you used as an example, like, you use as an example in the argument, like, oh, well, like, you know, like, obviously, like, if you ever wanted to go to therapy, I would just instantly say yes, and I would expect the same from you. And I was like, okay. Like, I think I've kind of been asking for that for a little while. And you were like, oh, okay, let's do it.

Yeah. I mean, the way that you asked, it was very subtle at first. It was kind of like these little suggestions of, like, maybe we should or we could or something like that.

And looking back, that was probably not the best approach.

We'll talk at the end of the episode about, like, how to talk to your partner if you want to suggest going to therapy. But no, I mean, I think, like, it was a challenge for both of us because we never hit a huge pain point with it. It wasn't like, you know, this is really bad. Like, I need us to go to therapy. So you were sort of like, gently, you know, we'd get. We'd start talking about the thing, and you'd gently say, like, this could be something that, like, a therapist would be really helpful for. And I'd be like, this could be. Yeah, it could be. But I wasn't. I was too much in that. Like, we can do it. Like, we're already doing it. We're talking about it. Let's just keep doing it.

Yeah. Like, it could be good to talk and we could figure this out on our own.

Yeah. But eventually I did realize I was like, it's not that we couldn't do it, but it did start to feel like we were running into some of our communication limitations. Like, one thing that comes up for us with communication is it's kind of funny. Like, we've gotten so good at knowing all the rules for communicating that sometimes we get, like, a little overly therapy talky with it. And we can kind of, like, end up going in circles about things where it feels like we're not getting to any sort of resolution. And it can feel exhausting for both of us of like, okay, I heard that, and da, da, da, da. Okay, I hear that. And you know, and it's just like. But we just. We have a hard time stopping ourselves from communication. We have a hard time saying, like, okay, that's the end of the conversation. Let's stop there. There's always some new thing that we end up talking about. So I think we both started to Realize, like, yeah, we're able to talk about this, but it's not our most effective communication.

Yeah. I mean, it's like, well, we could figure this out, but we could spend a year figuring this out on our own, or we could go get some help and maybe get through this a little quicker and maybe learn some new things about each other in the process.

So, like we were saying, Xander was doing a lot of, like, kind of gentle, like, oh, we could, or maybe we should kind of things. But I did feel like you also did a really good job of honoring and acknowledging my resistance. Like, you said things like, I understand why you wouldn't want to, or, like, it makes sense why you wouldn't want to. I know you've had those tough experiences, so I felt like you were.

You.

I never felt like you were pushing me or pressuring me to do it.

Yeah, I never. Yeah, it was tricky because it was like, it was something that I wanted to do, and I had. At that point, I had a long time of coming to terms with the fact that it was something I wanted. You know, something. For a while I would be thinking about, oh, huh. I want. I wonder if, like, you know, I wonder if maybe it would be valuable to get some help and, you know, thinking about that more and more and, like, okay, well, yeah, I think maybe we should. I'm like, okay, yeah, probably we should. Yeah, like, yeah, I definitely think we should. But, like, Vanessa said, it was never, like, a bad. We were never in a bad place. We were never in a bad place, and I was never feeling like, like, this is an ultimatum. Like, we have to do this or it's going to be a real problem or, like, our marriage is going to end. It's, like, nowhere. Nowhere remotely close to that. So, yeah, I mean, it's. I guess it's just sort of like the. The. And thing. The holding two things at once that we talk about a lot where it's like, I could really hold, like, yeah, this is something. I could see some serious value. This is something that I would like to do, something that I want to do, and it's not a requirement. I have so much empathy for what she's going through. I have so much empathy for all the reasons why she would have resistance, why she might not want to go. And I also, in a way, kind of accepted, like, yeah, there could be a world in which we don't do this. And, you know, I can live with that.

Yeah. So you did eventually come out and, like, clearly say, like, I want us to go yes. And that was important for me to hear. Like, to be totally honest, I knew that you wanted to go. The other times you were like, this might be nice, too.

But, yeah, why else would I be saying that?

The way that you were phrasing it, it sort of allowed me to kind of, like, squirrel my way out of it.

That's so. I feel like that's so interesting because that's something that we.

We.

I mean, we, like the royal we. Like, all you listening. Like, this is something that we are all guilty of. Like, so often, you know, we hide requests or we hide needs in these statements that really leave them open for interpretation or, like, where we're really unwilling to commit to something that we truly want. And, I mean, I'm becoming more and more aware of this as I get more. As I get older, as I get more mature, as I get more. I don't know, like, retrospective. Is that a word? I get more, like, circumspect. Like, just like. Yeah. The ways in which we kind of devalue our actual wants or our needs and put them in this. Oh, it might be nice to whatever. Because, like, I mean, think about how often you say, oh, like, wouldn't it be nice to blah, blah, blah. Or, like, it might be nice to whatever. And, like, be honest with yourself. What percentage of the time that you use that language? Is it genuinely just like, a. Like a curiosity or, like, I don't really care. Like, I'm just. I'm. I'm totally curious. I don't. It doesn't matter to me which way. Like, whether we do or don't do this thing versus the percentage of times that you say that. And you're like. You're like, yeah, I really want this thing. I don't feel comfortable putting myself out there and saying, I want this. And I'm just gonna put it out there, vaguely hoping that my partner will jump on it and say, oh, yeah, we should do that. And then you're like, great, I got what I wanted without having to ask, even though I did kind of ask.

Yeah. So, I mean, once you said it very clearly like, that, it was like, okay. Like, now it's a clear request. Like, it was a moment of clarity for me.

And I will also say it felt really fucking good to finally just say it. Like, it doesn't. You know, having been through this, you know, in this situation for a while, it didn't feel good. Time after time, kind of like doing these subtle hints, and I was getting sick of that, and it felt so good. To finally just be like, all right, I'm just going to say it. We get so in our heads about, like, oh, God. Well, I might, like, I'm really going to put myself out there. It's going to be so vulnerable. And, yeah, it is vulnerable for that moment that you say it. And it's such a relief, like, the moment it's out there. Like, you know, think about, like, anytime. I don't know, you've, like, had a secret to tell or something, it's like, seriously, it's just getting that shit out there. Yeah, you feel a million times better. So, hey, let. If anyone is listening to this and that resonates with you, if anyone's listening, if that resonates with you and you're holding something in, whether you want to go to therapy or not, like, let this be your sign to just, like, let it out. Yeah. Boom. Mic drop.

I will say the final thing that came up for me is I really kind of sat back with it and I realized, like, look, this decision is a big step for us personally and professionally. And in the end, like, having that end result mattered more to me than my resistance to going. So it was like, I want to be at that point where we've made the decision, we're taking the action. And, yeah, that just. It felt more powerful than any of the other reasons I was coming up with for why I didn't want to go. So I think that's a really powerful exercise for other people, too, is, like, visualize yourself in that end state or having achieved that end goal or with that end experience. And, like, does that visualization of yourself feel more powerful than any fears or anxieties or worries that might be coming up for you right now? Before we go any further, we want to tell you a little bit more about our sponsors, because we love them and we love that they help us bring pillow talks to you. 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We're so excited to tell you about Babbel because prior to Babbel becoming a podcast sponsor, Xander and I signed up for it on our own. Like we had no idea they were going to become a Pillow Talks podcast sponsor. But we both wanted to get much better at Spanish and we did all this research looking into all the apps. We asked our Instagram community, like, what's your top recommendations? And by far and away, Babbel was the most recommended app. So we signed up for it, we paid for it with our own money and we've been using it and absolutely loving it. So we just feel really excited and grateful that we get to share them as a podcast sponsor. Babel's quick 10 minute lessons are designed by over 150 language experts to help you start speaking a new language in as little as three weeks. Their tips and tools are approachable, accessible, rooted in real life situations, and delivered with conversation based teaching. So you're ready to practice what you've learned in the real world. Studies from Yale, Michigan State University and others continue to prove that Babbel is better. One study even found that using Babbel for 15 hours is equivalent to a full semester in college. And this is the perfect time to give it a shot because we have a special limited time deal for our listeners right now. You can get 55% off your Babbel subscription, but only for our listeners@babbel.com pillow. Get 55% off@babel.com pillow that's spelled B-A B B E L.com pillow rules and restrictions may apply. So let's talk about how we picked a therapist. So once I like, very clearly heard the request, I did feel a little bit guilty. So I was like, okay, you know what? I'm going to take it upon myself to do some of the leg work behind it because I knew how annoying it is to try to find a therapist. And I also knew some things to look for. So what I did is I just went straight to Psychology Today. And this isn't a sponsored thing. Like we don't get any money from them whatsoever. And also, like, Psychology Today isn't the one and only, you know, therapist profile, but it's pretty convenient. And here in Santa Barbara, most therapists are on it. So what I like about Psychology Today is it's just a directory for therapists. And so you get to see all these profiles of like, you know, their names, their pictures, their specialties. Now they're doing little videos, like a little 15 second video.

The videos are funny because.

So funny.

It's kind of genius. But also weird because what they did is they picked a very arbitrary number of like a maximum number of seconds. The video, I was gonna say it was like 7 to 15.

Like, it's, it's really short.

It's awkwardly short. However, I think they made a really good decision to do that because if they didn't set a minimum, like, you would get, oh, my God, you could get people talking for like, God knows how long and like, that would get super weird as well. So I really do appreciate them for being like, yeah, like do something on video just so that people can kind of, you know, make a split second judgment about you. Because honestly, that is what people do when, when you meet someone, you make so many split second, like judgments or decisions about them. It's like, you know, you can't stop yourself from doing that, so you might as well just get to do that on the video. But, you know, it's kind of like they rip the band aid off, like, all right, yep, do the awkward thing. Say like a couple sentences and then you're done.

So I knew that I wanted a male therapist because all my other previous experiences were female therapists. And I was like, you know what, let's just Shake things up. Let's do a male therapist. And I looked for therapists who had specific experience in the topic that we were talking about. This will be quick little plug for therapists out there. Put your freaking specialties on your website. Like, people want to see it. Too many therapists are very afraid to. They're like, oh, I do anxiety and depression and life changes and family issues and suicidality and addiction and abuse. And it's just like, no, Just say the thing that you love working with people on and your people will find you anyways.

And also probably other people will find you anyway because people are just looking for therapists.

That's my little rant. But I put the filters on for that. And then I just looked through pages and pages of options. And my advice for people looking for a therapist is this is a time to just go with your snap judgments. This is not like, you don't need to be fair. There doesn't need to be a reason why you think yes or no to someone. Like, I really believe that your gut and your instinct will help you find the right therapist for you. So if you're looking at a profile, even if you're just looking at the picture, and I know that sounds shallow or superficial, but if you're looking at this picture of a potential therapist and you just find yourself feeling like, like no. Like, I don't know why, or maybe I even feel bad for having such a strong no. But like, if you're a no honor that listen to that, it can be off the picture. It can be off their weird little 15 second video. It can be off the way that they describe the way that they work. Like it's okay. And you really, like, just let yourself make that snap judgment because your intuition, your instinct will guide you. So you just want to look for somebody who feels like welcoming to you, that you could picture yourself talking about your life with, that you could picture really listening to you. So when I went through the listings with those characteristics, it was. I was very like, no, no, no, no, no.

Maybe.

No, no, no, no.

Maybe.

No, no, no, no, no. And I think I ended up whittling it down to like, I think I got like five or six maybes. And then I looked at those a little bit more closely and I narrowed it down to three that felt like solid. Yes. I brought those three to Xander.

Wait, real quick though. You mentioned Psychology Today is a great place to start for people. People always ask us all the time, like, okay, well, but like, what about if I'm looking for a Sex therapist. So if you are specifically looking for someone to talk about sex with, what do you. You have one place that you typically send people.

That's harder. The only resource that I send people to is asec. They have.

How do you spell asect?

A, A, S, E, C, T. That's really the only directory. But I will say, like, I'm not an ASEX certified sex therapist. Most sex therapists are not ASEX certified. So sex therapy is not nearly as organized or as evolved as psychotherapy is. So it's a lot harder to find sex therapists. But that's a good, like, central direction.

And also with sex therapists, like, lots of people call themselves sex therapists. So if you want to be sure that you're seeing a psychotherapist who specializes in sex therapy, make sure you are searching for sex therapy, and then on their website, see that they are actually licensed as a psychotherapist, because that is not guaranteed.

Yeah, so you're looking for, like, marriage and family therapist, couples therapists. Like, it's different names based on different states. But you're. You really want somebody who has that foundation in psychotherapy. Okay. So I brought three different options to Zander, which was.

Which was awesome. Like, it felt. I just want to say it felt really good to, like, because I was. I was surprised that you took that upon yourself. You didn't tell me in advance that you were doing that and what had actually happened. To be totally honest with you, I think that we had that. That kind of final discussion of, like, where I just said, yeah, you know, I do really want to do this. We had that final discussion, like, I want to say, a number of months ago, and it was right before a bunch of just life shit got in the way. Like, Vanessa got Covid. I guess I got Covid. It was a tumultuous couple of months. And I think that we had sat. Like, when we had that conversation where I said, I want to have. Do therapy, I said, let's wait until, like, you know, until this stuff settles down, until we're back in our house. It's, like, too much to try to do this right now. And so that amount of time that it took to get back into our house ended up stretching out a little longer than we anticipated. And so I was just starting to be like, oh, yeah, this is, like, maybe a little awkward because it's, like, been a while. It's been a while since we had that conversation. We haven't talked about it yet, like, for good reason, because, like, we said, we Weren't going to talk about it, but now I don't know. And then Vanessa just came to me one day and was like, oh, I did all this work pre work for us. And it just. It felt really good. It felt really good. I'm so appreciative of that because even though, yeah, it was a situation where it was something that I was wanting for a while, I can also acknowledge I didn't clearly state my. My want or my need, you know, for a while. And, you know, it's not. It's not fair to be tiptoeing around something and expect your partner to read your mind or expect your partner to be like, oh, well, they've. They've said this maybe thing a number of times. So, like, 10 maybes must mean yes.

Yeah. Okay. So we had our three, and we decided to do consultations with all three of them. This is another one of my, like, weird little pet peeves about this, like, consultations. On the one hand, it's like, it is nice as a client to just be able to, like, have a quick phone call and kind of suss out the vibe.

This is usually like 10 to 15 minutes.

Yeah. But at the same time, it's like, your therapist cannot and should not really get into, like, oh, like, let's talk about this some more. Like, they might ask you a little bit about, you know, hey, what are you wanting to work on in therapy? But they shouldn't be getting into the therapy. And I also just, like, as a therapist, that time is tough. Like, doing a lot of free consultations is tough, but I'll save that for my other I'll do my therapy rant episode a different time. But anyways, all three that we were looking at did offer free consultations. So we set up one with the first guy, and we talked to him over the phone, and it was just like an instant. Yes. Like, the connection was there. We hit it off. We liked him. It was just like, yeah. So we decided not to actually interview the other two. Yeah, we just went ahead with him.

Yeah. Which is really nice. I think that. I mean, Vanessa, you already said it. Like, go with your gut.

Go with your gut.

That's something that we've really learned throughout the course of our relationship in marriage is you can, like, painstakingly go back and forth on any decision that you want to make. I know. I've been there plenty in my life where it's like, I know what I want, but I'm like, oh, well, I still need to exhaust all the other options. Before I make this decision, even though I already know this is the thing I want. And really all I'm doing is just making a case for me to decide to do the thing that I know I already want. So we have gotten so much better at being like, yeah, this, like, okay, we both want this. Okay, like, let's do it. And that's helped us when it's come to, like, buying homes, when it's come to buying cars, when it's come to choosing where we go on vacation, all kinds of stuff that's just another general life tip. Like, if you can just cut out, like, all of that decision making, all that back and forth, because you already know what you want. Like. Like it. Just do it.

Listen to your gut.

Your gut. You're gonna be so much happier. You have so much more time and just peace in your mind.

Yeah. And again, like, I know all the logistical annoyances of, like, finding a therapist and like, oh, what if you talk to somebody and you set up the appointment and then you don't like them and then you have to go back to the drawing board. Like, it is annoying, but do not settle. Like, you have to like your therapist. You have to connect with them. Therapy will not work. It will not be beneficial unless you like your therapist.

Yeah. I mean, you'll just settle. Yeah. Otherwise you'll, like, find yourself in the middle of session being like, oh, like, I don't know if I really want to share this detail with this person because, like, I don't. Like, I don't know, like, they don't make me feel safe or whatever. Or you'll find yourself thinking like, oh, God, I don't know if I really like what they said. Like, should I trust this person? Then it's like, then you're just throwing money away.

Like, one thing that made me realize I really like our therapist is he's. He teases us. Like, he kind of gives us a hard time sometimes. Like, like, our sessions, there's a lot of, like, joking and laughing and. Yeah. And like, very quickly, I think he felt a level of comfort with us where he's sort of like, you know, like, gently and in a. In a sweet way, like, teasing us a little bit. And for another person, they might be like, fuck, no, I don't want my therapy teasing me.

Are you kidding me?

Like, that's not my vibe. That I don't like that. But for us, it really works. And it just, like, made, you know, it's like, ah, yeah, yeah, this is our guy.

He gets me.

Okay. Well, I'm kind of jumping the gun, but let's talk a little bit about how therapy's going. How's therapy going for you?

It's great.

I love it.

It's great. And. And it's been hard, and it's been emotional, and it's been vulnerable.

It for sure got deeper. We knew it was gonna get deeper.

It's gotten deeper.

We were talking about stuff that I was like, how are we talking about this?

Yeah, we've each cried a number of times, sometimes alone, sometimes together, but it's been really enjoyable.

I think that's the main takeaway that I want people to get from this episode. When you go to therapy, when things are in a good place in your relationship, oh, my God. Therapy is fun, y'. All. Yeah, therapy is so fun. It's like, it's very enjoyable versus when you go to therapy when you're on the verge of a breakup or something horrible has happened. Like, it's so much harder. It feels like so much more of a slog. And I've experienced that on the other end, too. Like, as a therapist, when I had clients coming to me when things were in a good place, it was such a joy to work with them. So I think go now. Don't wait until things are bad.

Also, I think an underrated thing about going when you're in a good place is that you might be thinking, like, oh, well, if we're going in a good place, it's just going to be like, all smiles and roses. Can't. What's it. Candy canes and lollipop. Wait, candy canes and lollipop.

Sunshine.

Sunshine and rainbows. Oh, my God. Sunshine. And I pulled a Vanessa here and.

Like, candy canes and lollipops. Wow.

I feel like that might actually be a phrase, but you're like, oh, it's all going to be sunshine and rainbows. But like I said, like, for us, there has been. You know, it's been. There's been times, and it's been really vulnerable. It's been sad. It's been. You know, we. We've cried. There's been a lot of emotions that come up. And I think that this is actually, like, one of the very best ways to get more emotionally in tune and to get more comfortable feeling all kinds of things. Because it's like, yeah, we're on the same team. We come out of these sessions loving each other, feeling really good about being on the same team. Like, this is how you learn that having tough feelings is okay. Like, for me this is how I have really become so much more okay with being sad, being angry, being, you know, challenge, dealing with challenging emotions. It's like you put yourself in a controlled environment where you know, you have someone that knows how to guide you through those feelings and like, you're with someone that's really important to you, that you really love and like, you come out of that feeling stronger and, you know, feeling very together and understood and seen invalidated and like, like this is, this is how you, you create that positive association. Because for so long for me it was just like whenever you're having a challenging emotion, all you want is for it to go away, push that away. Like, I don't want that thing. And what I've learned through a lot of experiences like this is that it's like, no, like, like I, like, like I want those things clo. Like to come closer. Like, yeah, like I want to feel that. I want to feel that because that's actually. We're going to get through it and we're going to get through it closer together. And it's like, it's not something that I enjoy or like, I relish, but it's like, oh, this is actually an opportunity. Like my brain knows now. Like, ah, like this, this can be a. There can be a positive that comes out of this.

One thing that I've really appreciated is that having a therapist has really taken a lot of the mental load away too. Like, there's just this way that when you're in therapy, like a part of you gets to relax and say, like, you're the one in charge here. Yeah, you ask me the questions, you're guiding us, like you're stopping in certain places and you know all of that. And it's just like, yeah, you get to kind of relax and obviously you're still doing work, you're still, you know, there. But there's this way that you don't have to think about. Like, well, but when do we talk about it and how do we talk about it and what do I say and what if my partner freaks out? And you know, it's just like there's somebody there guiding you through it. That's such a relief to feel that too. And like he's asked really interesting questions like, like we already said, like we've been talking about stuff that I'm sort of like, wait, how did we get here? But I'm so glad that we're talking about this. I think we've both said things out loud that the other person was like, wait, what you. You think that, you feel that that's been your experience, but, like, in a really beautiful way. You know, I think, like, being together for 16 years, you get to a point where you sort of feel like you know, everything about your partner.

You don't.

You don't. And it is. It's a joy and an honor to see new things, new sides of you, to learn new things about you.

Yeah.

So, I mean, yeah, I've. I've left every single session just feeling so much closer to you and so much more in love with you.

Yeah. I've left every session feeling really grateful that we're doing that. Yeah. And I think we've also learned, you know, just continue to learn new ways to. To better communicate with each other. You know, it's like, we thought that we were pretty good at communicating, and you mentioned some of the challenges that we have with communication of, like, you know, over sort of like over therapizing almost or kind of going in circles. Yeah. Going in circles. And I have a better understanding now for some of the reasons why we are going in circles. And I have a couple big takeaways, some big, you know, big things I've learned about, like, okay, like, here, you know, here's why I've been doing that, and I understand why I have empathy, understanding for myself, for why that's been the way I've done things. And I can see that there are some different ways that could be more effective, even though they feel a little scary.

And we've also, like, we've already put these new tools to use. I mean, we've only had, what is it, three or four sessions. Like, we're still in the early stages of it. Yeah. But we're already putting, you know, new tools to use. Like, we had a. A little conversation the other day where I, like, tried out something new, and it was like, oh, this is so much better. Like, we can both do this. So. Yeah, the overall experience so far has been really amazing. And I'm sure, you know, there are going to be other challenging sessions. It's always, you know, can be a bit of a roller coaster, the journey. But I think having started it, being in a good place and having found the right person, like, it's just, just. And the. Yeah, the commitment that you and I have to showing up and just being there with each other and being real and vulnerable and honest with each other has really made it a special experience.

Yeah. And I think the, like, the interesting thing is that, like, yeah, obviously therapy is an expense and, like, Obviously, it's. It might be a really challenging expense for. For a lot of people. For most people. Might be. It might be really challenging for you. And it might be like. Or it could just be like, God, like, this money could be so much better spent on other things. And that's a totally normal way to feel upfront. I think every time we've gone to therapy, it's like after you start coming out of those sessions and feeling these things that we were just describing, it's like, I have that. I'm like, oh, like, yeah. Like, I can't put a price on what this feels like. Like, this feels like. Like, you know, I'd be willing to pay, like, many times more than what we're paying for the outcome, for that feeling of togetherness, of, like, unstoppableness. That's not really a word, but, yeah, unstoppableness. Just that. That feeling of love and, like, understanding and validation. It's. It's so good. And it's. It's hard to describe, like, what that is, and it's kind of, you know, the challenge of the world we are in, of. Of therapy or self help or whatever. It can be really hard to convince someone to invest in the thing that we know they need, that we know is going to be so good for them, despite the fact that we have hundreds and thousands of messages of people being like, I thought this was crazy. I thought I didn't need it. I did it. And oh, my God, it was like, the best money I ever spent.

All right, let's wrap this up with how to ask your. Your partner to go to therapy. So we've got some specific steps we're going to walk you through. So the first tip is to immediately disarm your partner by telling them you feel vulnerable.

Yeah. Like, before you ask for anything.

Yeah. When you go to them, say, like, hey, I feel really vulnerable saying this, but I want to say it anyway. Something like that. Just. Just that phrase can really help your partner not go on the defensive.

Yeah. Because otherwise they're going to take whatever you say and then they are going to interpret some tone or energy or, you know, they're going to make an assumption about what the backstory is for you. So this is getting ahead of that and being like, hey, I'm. I'm feeling vulnerable. Yeah, I said vulnerable. I'm feeling vulnerable about this. Like, you're telling them how you feel rather than letting them assume how you feel.

The next tip is to say something positive about your partner or your relationship. Again, this is just. Just disarming your partner, setting them at ease, and also setting you at ease too, because you're probably gonna feel a little nervous having this conversation. So just. Even if it's something simple, like, I love you, I love our relationship, I care about us. Like, that can just go a long way. Yep.

Compliments and gratitude.

Next, our recommendation is to just come right out and say that you want to go to therapy.

Yeah, don't do what I did.

Just say, I wanna go. State your reasons for wanting to go and state these in I language. Like, focus on yourself. I want to learn this. I want to explore this. I want more support with this.

Yeah. As opposed to being like, we need to go.

Another option here is that you can use this episode as a really simple way to ask your partner. So you can say something like, hey, you know, I just heard Vanessa and Xander's latest podcast episode, and they reveal that they are in things therapy. And just listening to them talk about it, they're having this amazing experience with it. It got me thinking that maybe this could be something really beneficial for us too.

So if you are listening to this podcast episode because your partner asked you to listen to it, they want you to go to therapy with them. Jokes on you. No, I'm totally just kidding. There could be all kinds of reasons why your partner asked you to listen to this. I'm not sure. Yeah. Not trying to be presumptuous.

No, I really.

That was mostly a joke, everyone. Mostly a joke. But who knows? This is when you turn to your partner and go, so want to do this?

No, I do think this can be a really great conversation opener because, like, let's be real. Asking your partner to go to therapy, like, that's a hard thing to do. We struggled with it ourselves. So being able to present it in this context, like, it can feel a lot easier to say, like, oh, I was just thinking about it because I heard this episode. Instead of, like, I've been thinking for a really long time that I want us to go to therapy. Just like, you're like, oh, yeah, it popped into my head. And you can kind of use this episode to preemptively address any hesitations you think your partner might have. Like, you could say, like, you know, oh, Vanessa and Xander didn't go because anything's wrong with their relationship. They just wanted some extra support, talking about something, or, you know, they talked about the expense of it, but they ultimately said they would pay multiple times. You know, like, use whatever we talked about to kind of pre. Preemptively address things that your partner might bring up. So next, we encourage you to talk about the positive benefits that you anticipate therapy having. This time, we want you to talk about your partner. So when we are talking about your reasons for wanting to go to therapy, you're using I language. But when we're talking about the benefits, I think it can be more powerful to focus on the benefits for your partner. So, for example, something like, I think it will make fights feel less intense, or, like, I think the way that I make requests of you isn't really very effective, and I want to find some new tools that will make it feel better to you. Or even, like, I think it will bring us closer together so, like, it'll be easier for you. You won't have to deal with this. It won't be as intense, like, really focusing and helping your partner see the benefits that it could have for them.

And I think one of the really nice things, like, you know, for, you know, that example you gave of, like, like, you know, I think the way that I make requests of you isn't working, and I want to find some new tools. Like, that's also you taking some responsibility for the situation, which is going to go a super long way. Because I think that especially if you are asking a man to go to therapy with you, there's going to be some gut reactions going on and there's going to be a potentially a worry of, like, oh, I, like, are you saying that I'm the problem? Like, you're good, but I need to change.

I need to go to therapy.

So we need to go to therapy in order for, like, me to get better.

Yeah.

And even if you think that that is the case why you want your partner to go to therapy with you, I can promise you you both need to change and you're gonna have a way better experience in therapy if you come open to the idea that both of you are definitely going to need to both make changes and both take responsibility for things. So the sooner you can start thinking of what's my part in this, like, what is something that I am willing to change or I'm open to change. And can I find a way to describe that to my partner so that it's clear to them that it's not like, oh, like, you have to go to, like, remedial school or whatever to fix this thing that you screwed up? Like, no, like, we're doing this together. And, like, here's something that, like, I want to get better at and how that's going to help you.

Yeah, that'll go so such a long way. Our next tip is to make sure you're talking about therapy in a positive way. So I think sometimes people get so anxious about making this request, or maybe they're dealing with some hesitance or resistance themselves, and we sort of talk about, like, oh, I know it's gonna be such a pain in the ass, or, I know it's gonna be so expensive, or it's gonna take so much time.

I think we just need to go to therapy.

Don't do that. You need to talk about it in a positive way. You need to make your partner want to go. Like, see the benefits of going. And I think even saying, like, even getting a specific is want to go versus you need to go. That is a very powerful way to phrase a request.

Yeah. And also because, like, that we need to go is kind of tricky. It's like, on the one hand, it's like, you could be saying, like, I need this in order for this relationship to work, but it also could be interpreted as, like.

As you need to go.

As, like, something. No, no. But, like, it could be something, like, externally is, like, problematic, and, like, oh, like, I need to go in order to. To fix this. Not. It's not like, it could be interpreted as, I don't want to go, but I need to, because this is problematic. And that opens the door for your partner to then come in with those arguments of, oh, well, like, oh, but I think we could fix this.

Yeah.

So it's like, if you just say, I want to go, your partner can't convince you about why you don't.

No, you don't want to.

Yeah, they're not gonna be like, no, you don't want to. I mean, if they say that, that's a huge red flag. Maybe you should consider finding a different partner. But, yeah, they can't argue with what you want to do. They can certainly argue with what you think you need to do.

Yeah. Next, we want you to phrase it as a favor. So you can just say to your partner, like, it would mean a lot to me if you would say yes, even if you don't want to or even if you don't think we need to. This kind of loops in with our next tip, which is to accept the yes, even if it's a begrudging one.

Oh, yeah.

So here's the thing. It's like, I think a lot of people, it's like, like, I want to go to therapy, and I want my partner to want to go to therapy too. Like, you want them to feel as positively about it, as excited about it as you might be, but your partner might not be there. So if you phrase it to them as, like, look, you don't need to be excited, you don't need to feel like, we need to, but I would love for us to do this for me. Like, would you do this for me?

And I know if you're hearing that that might feel really hard to you to be like, oh, my partner might probably is going to give me a begrudging yes. And, God, that's going to feel really challenging for me because I really want to do this. And they seem kind of 50, 50 on it. I get that that feels challenging, but I want to reframe this for you. And actually we just had Emily Nagoski on an IG Live recently and she was talking about this, and this was such a powerful concept that, like, like, I know this, like, logically, but I didn't really ever think about it in this context around decision making, where if you want something, you've probably been thinking about it for a while, you've had a lot of time to make a decision, or like, once you've sort of come to accept the fact that, ah, this is what we need, this is what I want. You've taken a lot of time mulling things over. You probably with this therapy thing. If you want to go therapy, you probably thought you've been through all the permutations that Vanessa talked about, like, oh, maybe we do, maybe we don't. Maybe we can fix it on our own. Maybe we can try this, I'll try this, I'll try that, I'll research this. And eventually you get to, yeah, no, I really want to go. Like, like, I think we need it, I want to go. And your partner has not had that amount of time. And as much as you might think, well, I'm going to give a really compelling logical case. I'm going to shorten the process for them. I don't need them to go through all that, you know, all that whatever, like, stress that I went through of going back and forth on it. Like, I'm doing them a solid by laying out this really clear case and getting them to that, yes, really quick so they don't have to suffer the way that I did. Yeah, that makes sense logically. But the reality is, like, they need that time. Like, like, you need that time to, like, almost get to acceptance of this is what is happening. And that never happens immediately. Like, acceptance is not Something that you can just, boom, have, like, you have to sit with it. And so they haven't had that time. You've given them, like, the length of the conversation or really less than that, because you probably started the conversation not immediately saying, this is what I want. So, like, just give them some time. They are going to give a less than thrilled response.

Yeah. And ultimately, like, they don't have to want to go to therapy. They don't have to be excited about it. They just have to agree to it.

Yeah, it's fine. Yeah. And like we were saying, probably by the time you start and they start to see, like, oh, this isn't the way I thought it was going to be, or, oh, I am seeing these tangible benefits, like, their mind will change about that.

And our final tip is to thank them. So let's wrap this up with me saying, thanks, babe, for going to therapy with me.

Yeah, thank you. It's been really great, and I'm looking forward to every Tuesday when we go.

All right, well, thank you so much for tuning in today. We are so appreciative that you're here, and we wanted to ask a small favor in return for us being so vulnerable and sharing so much in this episode. We would be very grateful if you took a moment to follow rate and review the podcast wherever you listen to it. So whether that's Spotify, Apple, Google, anything else, like a follow, a rating, a review, all those things are so helpful in Pillow Talks, being able to grow and reach new couples. So we'd really appreciate it if you could just take a quick second to do that.

All right, and that's it for today's episode of Pillow Talks. Thank you so much for listening. Join us again next week when we talk about about all the secret things your partner wishes you would stop doing in the bedroom.