EPISODE 155: Am I The Asshole? In-Laws Edition

I think it's great that you're considering going back to therapy. I think that would be very helpful because you're the asshole and I think that's great that you did rightly say to your brother, it's a me problem. I think the thing though is that it feels like you said that, but you didn't really believe that.

Hello and welcome to the Pillow Talks podcast. We're your hosts, Vanessa and Xander Marin. I'm a sex Therapist with over 20.

Years, years of experience, and I'm just a regular dude. We share the ups and downs in our relationship while giving you step by step techniques for improving yours.

Make sure you subscribe for your weekly double date full of totally doable sex tips, practical relationship advice, hilarious and honest stories of what really goes on behind closed bedroom doors, and so much more. It's the sex education you wish you'd had. Thanks to Storyworth for supporting Pillow Talks. Storyworth is a meaningful gift you and your family can treasure forever. And you can get started right away. Go to storyworth.compillow to get $10 off your first purchase. It's time for another round of Am I the Asshole?

Asshole. Asshole. Asshole.

What?

Am I the asshole? Oh, okay, this is weird.

What are you doing?

I don't know. I was trying to do a little echo. Yeah, I was going to do it again, but it's like, well, if it wasn't immediately clear, it's not going to be immediately clear if I do it again. So I have to live with that first attempt.

So we first did this series back in episode 135. So if you haven't listened to it, listen to this one first, then go back and listen to that one. There's no order that you need to listen to them in. But this series is inspired by the Reddit thread Am I the Asshole? And the whole premise there is people send in complicated situations of like, here's what happened and I really cannot figure out in this situation, like, am I in the wrong? Is the other person in the wrong? What do I do? So we, we thought that thread was super interesting and we thought, you know, we get so, so many similar stories from our community. Like, we should do an episode where we give you our hot takes on who's the real asshole in this situation. So we decided for this episode to have a special theme of in laws.

Because who doesn't love in laws, right? What? I mean, they're, they're, they're wonderful. I love my in laws.

I also love my in laws. And in laws can Be real freaking tricky. And based on the response that we got when we put a question up on Instagram about this episode, a lot of you guys are struggling with your in laws. So today we're gonna break down some really honestly very fascinating questions and scenarios that got sent in by our community. And just to give you a little sneak peek at the behind the scenes of this episode, I went through and read all of these responses and decided which ones I thought would be most interesting for the episode. But Xander has not heard any of them. So you're gonna get my. Like, I've thought about these a little bit take. And Xander's totally hot. Like, just hearing this for the first time. Take.

My completely unfiltered regular dude take. And before we get those takes, I'm gonna give you this week's review of the week. Communication is sexy. I first heard Vanessa, an armchair expert, and I was so intrigued by her approach, I had to check this podcast out. The first one I listened to was we tried your craziest sex tips and I nearly spit out my soup. Listening to Vanessa describe her experience with with the 360. If you know, you know I fell in love with your honesty and laughter over sex. My husband and I are former purity culture disciples, and we've been having better and more frequent sex than ever after listening to your pod. After 14 years and counting of marriage, we're the most comfortable we've ever been. Talking about our likes and dislikes in the bedroom and thinking, what the heck took so long. We're so grateful for you and I would recommend this podcast and do to anyone with a sex drive. There's something here for everyone. Thank you, thank you.

Thank you so much for this delightful review and what a transition that is from my interview on Armchair Expert. Straight into us trying out the weirdest sex tips.

Very different vibes.

Very different vibes. But you know, I'm here for it. That's what we're all about here, the full spectrum. But anyways, we really appreciate reviews like this because it is the best way to help the podcast grow and get in front of new people, new audiences. We're very passionate about this podcast. Even though we joke around a lot, we make a lot of funny episodes. Like, we really want to help people and do it with the podcast. So we greatly appreciate your support of the podcast. If you have ever gotten a good tip out of it, had a good conversation with your partner, ever gotten a laugh out of it, we would be so appreciative if you could take 60 seconds to leave us a quick review on Apple Podcasts. So here's how you do it. Go to the main Pillow Talks page on Apple Podcasts. Scroll to the bottom, you'll see the review section there. You can just leave a quick little review. And we do a giveaway every single week to say thank you for taking the time to leave the review. So if you hear your review read in an episode, you can email us@infomtherapy.com and we will give you a little prize. All right, here is our first scenario. I like half and half in my coffee, but my in laws view that as extra high maintenance. We stayed in a VRBO with them recently and my husband and I went to the store to grab snacks and breakfast food. I came back with Starbucks and they made a comment like, hmm, is our coffee not bougie enough? Should I just buck up and have their coffee or whatever else they're serving that I don't enjoy? Also, I don't eat meat and they routinely make soups and casseroles stuffed with meat and expensive. Expect me to just eat around it, even though it's fully integrated into the dish. My husband doesn't say anything to his parents about their behavior, so I'm usually just left to make do with what I'm served. Am I the high maintenance asshole?

No, you're not. This one's pretty straightforward for me. It's actually interesting. I was about to make a comparison of, you know, like not necessarily being vegetarian but like having a different milk preference or something. Like, oh, you know, I don't drink like I do almond milk in my coffee or something. And like how it'd be like, oh, okay, yeah, like if, if you don't want dairy milk, like we'll get the almond milk or the oat milk or whatever. And how that's like not that weird. Or at least for me, that doesn't feel that weird. And then, but then you go on and tell the story of, well, I also happen to be vegetarian and they don't really give a shit about that. So it doesn't really seem, doesn't really seem like that argument is going to land for them. However, your preferences matter, your, your dietary preferences, the diet that you're on matters. And I, yeah, I think it's super rude if it's like, hey, someone here like can't eat this food. Yeah, we don't care about them.

Okay? So my initial hot take, gut reaction when I read it was the exact same as yours. I was like, this one feels pretty cut and Dry to me, like, that's super fucking rude to make a vegetarian pick around meat. As a former vegetarian who put in this situation quite a lot, like, I get it. But then I sat with it for a little bit and I was like, okay, let me see what else is here. And I started thinking about the importance of the tone here. Like, these comments and these situations, depending on the tone, could actually be very different. So somebody, you know, of course it could be aggressive or rude, like, oh, you're so bougie with your coffee. But I was trying to, like, have empathy, try to put myself in these people's situations. And I thought, you know, what. What if they feel kind of embarrassed by what they're serving? Like, food is very personal. There's so much, like, culture and history and tradition that gets steeped in it. And sometimes we can get very attached to it in ways that we don't even necessarily understand. So I don't know, I might be stretching it a little bit here, but I thought it could be worth, you know, if you hear something like, oh, is our coffee not boug enough? Like, I get kind of curious about that. And like, oh, do the parents have any sort of, like, emotional connection to their coffee or the way they make coffee or anything like that? Does it feel like I'm stretching too much?

I think you're stretching a little bit. Or. Or at least you're interpreting what I said as being like, yeah, they're assholes and they need to provide or cater for her. Which is not what I'm saying.

No, no, no, I don't think you said that. Like, I think in situations like these, like, this is a perfect situation of let everybody do whatever the hell they want to do for themselves. Like, if this person wants to buy their own half and half or buy their own Starbucks, go for it. Like, what does it matter to anybody else if you don't, like, half and half, don't put it in your coffee. Like, if there might be a certain situation where they're talking about sharing bills, you know, like, oh, we're all contributing to food. And sometimes people can get a little sensitive about, like, well, I don't want to pay for something that I'm not contributing to, so maybe that's a piece of it. But, like, if this person is offering to, like, hey, I'm buying my own half and half, I'm buying my own Starbucks. Like, what does it matter to anybody else? Like, just don't make those same decisions. But we do often, like, the reason that we get so overly Invested in other people's decisions that have no bearing on our own lives is that sometimes we have some sort of sensitivity or vulnerability around that. So. So I wonder if this is. To me, I'm guessing that this idea of like not being fancy enough or not being bougie enough for the in laws, it's not just about the coffee. That might be a sensitivity for them in other areas of their life. Maybe they don't have as much money as their friends or, you know, as the. Their child and their, you know, the child's partner could be like a deeper thing.

Yeah, absolutely. And I mean, if I were this person, I would just, I would, I would try to not read in so much to that comment of like, oh, is our coffee not bougie enough for you? I think that entire thing could have been sidestepped with just a simple, like, oh, no, like, coffee's great. I just, I prefer half and half. Um, I think this person didn't help their case by going to get Starbucks. I think it would have been much easier to just bring a. Cause half and half is real easy to buy. It's in a tiny little milk carton.

Usually allowed to go get Starbucks if they want to get Starbucks.

Yeah. Yes, abs, absolutely. But the thing is, the person they're presenting, what they're presenting to us is, is the issue is I prefer half and half in my coffee. And they, you know, my in laws don't respect me for that. I think if that's the issue, there's a simple solution. Just bring a little bit of half and half with you. You're going out to the store, like, buy the half and half. Then the conversation is not like, oh, is our coffee not good enough for you? It's just like, oh, yeah, no, like, coffee's great. This is just like, you prefer cream or sugar or whatever. I prefer half and half. And so I got some half and half since it wasn't in the house.

You know what could be a cute way of deflecting is something like, yeah, you know, the half and half is just one of life's little simple pleasures for me. Like, what's one of your simple pleasures? Like something like that where you're turning it more into a conversation rather than like just immediately feeling judged.

Yeah, no, the other thing I want to say is, you know, dietary stuff does get tricky and I think Vanessa and I can speak from experience here. As you know, both of us are gluten free.

I've been vegetarian and I've been vegan, which was real Hard.

Yeah. And gluten free is an interesting one. There's a lot of judgment out there about it because there are lots of people that eat gluten free, like purely out of preference, without any necessarily, like, medical rationale behind it. And then there's a big gray area and both Vanessa and I are sort of in gray areas. Neither of us have celiac's disease. But you know, for me personally, like when I do blood tests, I get, I show as like having moderate inflammation from, from gluten. And so for me, it's a choice of if I don't want to have that, that, that inflammation. If I want my digestion to work properly and to absorb all the nutrients from the food that I eat, I need to eat gluten free. I'm not gonna die. If I eat gluten, I'm not going to get super sick. I'm just not going to feel great. So for me, I don't necessarily look at that as like everywhere I go, I need to expect or I should expect that someone has catered to me. You know, before I go somewhere, you know, I either have a conversation of like, you know, oh, is it possible to do this gluten free, or should I come prepared with an alternative or, or something for me. And I think the same can be true if, you know that you're a vegetarian and everybody else in the group that you're with eats meat. And you know, I think there can also be a generational thing too where it's older people who are just like, I don't know anyone who's vegetarian. Why would you do that?

And there can also be a cultural thing too. Like my Mexican grandma, when I was vegetarian for years, she would make me chicken and like, she just.

Yeah, well, it's not meat.

Yeah, yeah. To her, like, meat is beef and pork. Chicken is like not meat.

Chicken is chicken.

Yeah. And it wasn't, it wasn't being disrespectful, it wasn't being like aggressive or hostile. Like, it just culturally, that's what meat meant to her.

Yeah. And similarly, we don't expect her to have a gluten free alternative for us all the time. Like, she doesn't always know that. She, like, she doesn't really just. Yeah, she just hasn't internalized like, what exactly? Gluten. And it's like, oh, like corn tortilla, flour tortilla. Well, they're both tortillas, like, but you can eat one and not the other. It's like she just doesn't Quite get it and that's okay. Like, she doesn't eat that way other than us. She doesn't know anybody else that eats that way. So, you know, we just make sure that we have an alternative ready when we go over there.

Yeah. So I think going forward, when you're spending time with your in laws, like, have that conversation ahead of time of, hey, should I bring some vegetarian stuff for myself or do we want to make, like, is there a dish that, you know, like a casserole is a great example of something like, oh, can we make two versions of the casserole where, you know, one's vegetarian, one we add the meat to, or like, you know, oh, pull aside a little bit of the pasta and the veggies before, you know, we finish it up. So making a plan ahead of time and offering to take responsibility for yourself too, of like, hey, I can bring my own food. Just let me know what's easiest.

Yeah. And so, yeah, if you are not taking it upon yourself to inquire about making sure there's a vegetarian alternative or you're not taking it upon yourself to bring some extra stuff to make sure that you're going to be covered, I don't think it's fair to expect your partner, I think your husband, you said in here to stand up for you proactively, like, oh, hey, why didn't you do this despite the fact that nobody asked you to? Now it's a totally different story if you start making requests or asking like, oh, can, is it possible for me to help make, you know, a no meat version before the meat gets mixed in? Or is it, you know, is it okay if I bring some extra stuff and I make something on the side for me now, if they start making fun of you for that or making weird comments, that's absolutely the time when you should enroll your husband in supporting you. Hey, I'm feeling, I'm feeling really challenged because it feels like I'm being belittled for my dietary choices.

Yeah.

Despite the fact that I've done everything I can to, to like, to ease the load on them, I'm not expecting them to go above and beyond. And yet still they're making fun of me. Like, I need your support in backing me up.

Yeah. Yeah. This is why I love these episodes because even ones that on the surface seem like, oh, no, the other people are totally the asshole. Like, if we start to peel back the layers a little bit, like, there's always something more interesting. So I think ultimately in situations where you feel like your Personal preferences are being judged. I know it's very easy to get defensive and to feel like, why am I being attacked for having these personal preferences that don't impact anybody else? Take a moment to step back and recognize it's not actually about you and your preferences. There's some sort of sensitivity that's coming up for those other people. And if we can lean into that empathy and that curiosity of huh, I wonder what makes them feel like they have to defend their own choices, then we can often get to some really interesting places. Here's our next one. My mother in law has made several passive aggressive comments towards me. She tells me often how beautiful my sister in law is and how you can see the love my brother in law and sister in law have for each other without ever once saying that about my husband and I. She has even told me I wasn't the vision of a daughter in law she has chosen for my husband, but she's glad she has me. In addition, my husband works for his father with plans to take over the business. My mother in law consistently reminds me that we shouldn't try to afford certain things because she knows how much we get paid. It has pushed me over the edge and I have since removed myself from family functions at their house to avoid dealing with her behavior. Am I the asshole for telling my husband he's welcome to go by himself or take the kids, but I'm going to be staying home? Ooh.

My question is, have you brought this up with the mother in law? Have you shared how you feel about that? Or, you know, like, have you had a conversation of, hey, when you said this, it felt like this to me and I, you know, that I feel hesitant to be around when it feels like there's this judgment or this dislike towards me. I'm assuming that maybe, you know, that may not be your intention. And so I wanted to bring that up to you so we could have a conversation about what might be coming up for you when you're making these comments.

So we have three examples of comments she said here. Of course, there could be much more to the story than just these three things, but each of these three things, I see these as perfect examples of ways that we can hear the same statement in very different ways. So, like, let's look at each three separately. So the first one is she tells me how beautiful my sister in law is and how you can see the love between the two of them. But she doesn't say that about the person writing this in. I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing? Like we don't know. Is she telling the brother in law and the sister in law that and saying all these nice things to their face? Cause like what she's doing here is she's making a sweet comment kind of like behind their backs.

But yeah, we assume maybe she's saying.

The exact same thing about the person writing this in behind their back. Like we don't know what she's saying to the brother and sister in law.

Yeah. I think the differentiating factor here is is she saying this stuff about the, you know, your sister in law and your brother in law and how wonderful they are together. Is she just saying that to you when they're not around or is it when they're around she's making, she's giving them all these compliments and she never gives you guys compliments.

Yeah. There could be a ton of different scenarios here, but I'm saying, like, ultimately, just on the surface, I don't think this is inherently a terrible thing to say to somebody. Like it's actually a really sweet thing. Like, oh yeah, look at the two of them. They each other. I love them. You know, there's nothing like mean about it. Of course the tone could change things. And of course, like, yeah, if she's never saying anything nice to the person who wrote this in, that could be different. But on the surface, I don't think it's terrible. Then we have the second thing. I wasn't the version of a daughter in law she had chosen for my husband, but she's glad she has me. I don't think that's necessarily a horrible thing to say either. I think it's a little bit foot and mouthy. Like she probably doesn't recognize that it sounds like a backhanded compliment.

Yeah.

But I could also see a universe where it's shared like, where it's said in a really sweet way of like, man, you are not what I was expecting. Like, you've been a real surprise. What a delight you are. Like, what a unique individual you are. I never thought I would have someone like you in my life. But ultimately, like she's saying, I'm glad I have you.

Yeah.

And of course, again, the tone here matters and it could have been like, it really could have been like a. Yeah, you weren't what I was picturing, but I'm glad I have you. Like, of course there could be a mean tone, but there could also be a really sweet tone.

Yeah, yeah, that's, that's what I thought the first time. You read that to me, I was like, yeah, it is a foot and mouth thing, but it's also kind of vulnerable and sweet.

Yeah, I don't, I can see it either way. And then we've got the third thing. Like she's telling them things that they shouldn't buy, basically because she knows how much they get paid. That is definitely like meddlesome. It's not her place to be telling her child and their partner, like, what to buy or not buy. And at the same time I can see like with a family business, you know, your finances are entwined with each other in a way that, you know, other people's aren't. And I think sometimes people, people think of giving advice as showing love. So I don't think it's necessarily like the rudest, cruelest thing to say or do to another person. Ultimately, I can see a lot of gray area in all three of these things. And my advice is the same as Xander's. Like, have you talked to your mother in law about this? Because I don't think that these are like cut offable offenses. Like, I'm never talking to you again because of this. Like, can you talk to her and say, and give her the benefit of the doubt and then maybe say something like, hey, I know that you love me and I don't think that you ever are trying to hurt me, but I wanted to talk to you about a couple of statements that you made or a couple situations that we had that they did wind up hurting my feelings a little bit. And I just want to air them out with you so that we can move on and you know, have a good relationship. Something like that. Like, I think it's worth, I really think it's worth having at least one conversation.

Oh yeah, absolutely. And that conversation will be very telling for you as to how, how your mother in law really feels. Like if she is super dismissive of this or Gaslighty, then great, you're making the right decision in staying away. That's not super healthy healthy. But if she is like, oh my God, that was so not my intention and wow, I had no idea that you felt that way. And now that I'm hearing that, I can see how you could interpret that that way. And gosh, I feel awful. That's a very different, that's a very different outcome.

I always think that these kinds of things are worth having a conversation because that's one of the things that consistently surprises me about humans and that I've had plenty of experience with in our own relationship. It Is amazing how two people can be in the same moment having the same experience. Like having one single conversation and one person hears it one way and the other person hears it an entirely different way. And like, you know, you and I have had conversations where we've gone back and processed it afterwards. Like even this morning we had to say that, where I was like, I cannot fathom a universe in which your experience is the correct experience. Like, I feel so strongly about what I experienced, what I heard, what I remember. But the reality is like the, that is just human nature. We have really different experiences and the intentions that we have are so often not picked up upon by the person that we're communicating with. And it's painful sometimes and it's really frustrating and it's really challenging, but it's just a part of being a human. So I think that if you have that conversation with your mother in law, let's say that she does, she's just a jerk about it. She did mean it in all these, you know, asshole y kinds of ways. And then I think it's very fair to draw a boundary around your own behavior and say, you know, for my mental health, for my well being, I am not going to have interactions with your family. And so in that sort of case, I do think it's perfectly fair to make a decision for yourself, but not make a decision about your husband, about the kids or other people. So I don't think you're an asshole for telling your husband, you're welcome to go by yourself, you're welcome to take the kids, but I'm gonna stay at home. That is a perfectly reasonable thing to request.

Yeah. I do think though that the best way to do this and this might be challenging now given that you've already sort of drawn a bit of a boundary or at least an unspoken boundary. So for you to do what I'm about to suggest may feel like you're walking things backwards, but I think the ideal way to do this, like Vanessa and I were saying, have that conversation with her, see how she responds or how she reacts. And if it is, she is, you know, responding poorly or in a way that feels like, okay, yeah, she, she really kind of has it out for me or just doesn't really care about me at all. I think then, then what you can say is you can set a boundary with her and say, please, I don't like, I don't want to talk about money with you. I don't want you making comments about what we can and can't afford. That doesn't feel good for me. You know, we are allowed to have different approaches to finances and make different decisions. Like, we're adults and like, I would like to be. We would like to be able to make. Or I would like to be able to make the decisions that, that I want to make for our family without judgment from you. Please don't make comments like that around me. If you do, I'm like, I'm going to remove myself from the situation because that doesn't feel good. And you know, if there are other things, other things in there too, about, like, you know, it doesn't feel fair to be constantly hearing these, like, really glowing things about, you know, half of your family, but none about ours. Like something, you know, something like that there are clear boundaries of, hey, if I, if we get onto these topics, then I'm going to remove myself from the situation. Then when it happens, then you remove yourself from the situation so that, so that they can see that there are consequences to the boundaries being crossed as opposed to it being like, yeah, well, you actually really hurt my feelings like over the last year and I've been stewing about it and I just kind of decided unilaterally, I'm going to cut you guys out.

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Oh boy.

But because the extended family who I hold in very high regard, saw what she posted. Basically she was in a dress much too short and she shook her ass for the camera and posted it on her IG stories and added it to her highlights. Anyways, they got married and I kind of stopped talking to him them unless required. I just had nothing nice to say, to be honest. My brother brought it up one night when he came over to talk and I laid all my cards out and broke down and cried and said I was disappointed and hurt, but that it was a me issue. I also let him know that despite it seeming like everyone approved and supported him, that wasn't the case and it sucked because I was the only one being honest about all of this. I told him in a few years I might be interested in having a relationship with his wife, but at the moment she's just not the type of person I would be friends with. I just truly, honestly and with my whole heart believe that who you have around you is a reflection of who you are. And that's why I have people out of my life, blood or not. Now shit is not the same and I'm grieving. What was. We were very close and now we feel like distant relatives. Honestly, this whole ordeal is making me consider going back to therapy because it has that much of an effect on me. And I cry at least once a day about this. My mom told me that her parents know I don't like her and kind of hate me now. I didn't go looking to make enemies of people I might end up having to see at a Christmas party, but I did tell my mom if they ever want to have a sit down, I will gladly have one since I have the receipts of it all and will happily back up everything I've said.

Oh, wait, What? Wait, you want to sit down with your sister in law's parents to show them how much of a skank she is?

Yeah.

Oh, so you want to turn her parents against her too? Wow. Okay.

All right, well, what's your gut check here? Who's the asshole?

I. I think it's great that you're considering going back to therapy. I think that would be very helpful.

Because you're the asshole.

And, and I think that's great that you. You did rightly say to your brother, it's a me problem. I think the thing though is that it feels like you said that, but you didn't really believe that you said that because you thought that was the right thing to say. In fact, it very much is a you problem. But. But you, I think inside are really struggling with whether it is a you problem or a. If everybody else lived their life the way I wanted them to, then everything would be so much better.

Yeah, I think there is a lot of judgment in your question here. Like to say that's not how a woman who is serious about marriage acts. Like, I've worn some skanky little short dresses. I've shaked my. Shaken my ass. What is the path of shaked? I've shaked my ass. I have shook my ass and I'm very serious about my marriage. You get to decide, like, if you don't want to, you know, have raucous parties, if you don't want to post scandalous or scantily clad things on your Instagram, that's totally your choice. You get to do that. That's totally Fine. But you don't get to judge other people for making very innocuous decisions like this. Like, there's nothing. She kept using the word red flag. There's nothing red flaggy about this. Like they're on a bachelor bachelorette party together in Vegas. They're together. Like, she's not doing anything that shows she can't be trusted. She doesn't love your brother. Like, she's just having fun in Vegas.

Yeah. Now, now if your brother is texting you on the side at the bachelor bachelorette party, being like, oh God, I'm feeling really uncomfortable about the direction this party is going and God, I don't know what's going on, that's a different story. Doesn't sound like that's what happened. So, yeah, I mean, and yeah, you're right, you do get to decide who you surround yourself with and what relationships you do and you don't have. But you have to live with those consequences or those realities. You don't get to say, I only surround myself with good people. I'm putting good in quotes. I only surround myself with good people. And therefore it's your fault, brother, that we're not close anymore.

Yeah.

Like, you don't get to say, these are the preconditions to being in my life. And, and now when you, someone else doesn't meet those preconditions that like, that that's their fault.

Yeah. Ultimately, the situation that you're in here is you have to decide how high of a price are you willing to pay for not really loving some pretty innocuous behavior. Like, you get to decide if, if she's just, you know, even for other reasons. She's not your cup of tea. She's not someone you super connect with. That's totally fine. Like, your sister in law does not have to be your best friend. She does not have to be your favorite person in the world, but she's your brother's wife. And if you're gonna cut her out of your life, you're cutting your brother out of your life too. So are a couple of ass shaking videos in Vegas really worth the price of your relationship with your brother? Which sounds like it was a really beautiful, special, close relationship. Like, is that really worth the price for you?

Yeah, I mean, it just, it just sounds like, it sounds like you are expecting everybody else to have the same standards, the same beliefs, the same perspectives as you. Exactly.

Yeah.

And the reality is we all have different, like we all think differently, we all behave differently, we all make different choices in life. And life is about, you know, is understanding that we're all different and that, you know, we can still relate with each other even if we're different. And so I think that you have to take responsibility for your own feelings, your own choices, your own judgments, your own perspectives or standards, but you can't expect everybody else to have the same ones as you.

Yeah. I also just feel like this specific scenario is not showing that much about the sister in law's character in the way this person thinks it does. Like, again, this is not a, hey, my, you know, my sister in law was flirting with other people in Vegas or she made out with somebody, or I found out, you know, she cheated on my brother, she stole somebody's money.

Also, who knows what arrangement she and your brother have? Who knows, like, what kind of relationship arrangement they have.

Like doing this right in front of your brother. So it's like your brother clearly doesn't have an issue with it.

Yeah. It also, it seems like you're, it seems like you're judging your brother and his and his wife by two very different standards.

Oh, yeah.

Which is, which is also very interesting. Like, you're like, you're like, oh God, like, oh, my brother's a great person, but my, but his partner isn't. Despite the fact that they are doing the same thing together, they are, they're co signing on each other's behavior. So it's, I think you need to judge them by the same standard. Your, your brother is happy, it sounds like, sounds like he's quite happy in the situation that he's in with the partner.

He's having a fucking blast.

Yeah, it sounds like, it sounds like he's having fun. So I do think it is, it's a bit unfair that you aren't seeming to apply the same standard to your brother.

Yeah. But again, like, it's just a different level of privacy that she has. Like, yeah, I feel comfortable posting this on Instagram. So again, it's just like, I don't think that this is some horrible red flag type of behavior. The other thing that I take issue with here is this person wrote that when they had that conversation with their brother, they told him, like, I'm not the only person who doesn't like her.

That was next up for me too.

And that is fucked up to say, like, you are allowed to share your own opinions and thoughts and feelings, but bringing in these, like, mysterious other people is an incredibly cruel and unsafe thing to do in conversation.

It's very high school or even junior high.

Yeah. And Even if you know 100% for a fact that other people feel that way, you do not get to speak for them. And it's just a very unkind thing to do to another person to say, like, other people think this way too. Because now it's like you're doubling down on, you're creating more hurt for them and you're giving them this paranoia of like, oh, well, who else feels this way? And I, I feel like I've asked other people and they said this and are people lying to me? Are they hiding things from me? Who is it? Who have they talked to? Like, it's a really scary thing to feel like people are talking behind your back and you don't know who's saying those things and who's lying to your face. And so ultimately it's just like, it doesn't, it's not your place to speak for other people. Even if you know, you know that they feel the same way as you do. So don't do that. That's like a really just good overall communication tip. Don't bring in this mysterious unknown army to back up your point. Like, just speak your own point. Don't bring other people into it.

It's your experience. Like your experience is going to be different from everybody else's experience. And I think people say that when they seem to think like, oh, everybody experiences it the exact same way I do. It's a very egocentric way of looking at things. Oh, yeah, no, I know what they think and I know what they think and I know what they think. And so I'm just gonna go. I'm gonna take it upon myself to tell you what all these other people think, but I'm not actually gonna bring them into it. I'm just gonna say a bunch of other people think that.

All right, let's move on to the next one. This one starts Thanksgiving 2002.

All right, set the scene. The scene is set.

I had a poor relationship with my mother in law, but tolerated her for the sake of my husband. For the three or four times a year I had to see her. My past tense language is deliberate. The writing on some of these cracked me up. Okay, the conversation is going on around the dinner table, including my nine year old niece. My brother in law says something about a former teacher. My mother in law says, oh, she married a offensive term for an indigenous person. I snapped, whoa, that's extremely rude. We don't say that. She got up from the table and stormed away. We made quiet, shocked. Further conversation and she came storming back a few minutes later, yelling about how she was in her 70s and couldn't be expected to change her wording and continuing to justify why it was okay to say what she did. All the while my brother in law and husband tried to talk her down and get her to understand why what she said was inappropriate and racist. This is all in front of my niece. She stormed off again, yelling, and my husband and I packed our things and left. My sister in law and mother in law have not spoken to me since, but will talk to my husband without a problem. Was I the asshole? I could have handled it better and not snapped, especially in front of my niece. But I also feel that calling out her racist behavior was necessary. This is a good one.

This is, I mean I, I want to say, I want to say that you're like, regardless of how you said it, like it sounds like you're in, you're not the asshole here. Like, I feel like of course there's probably always better ways to have said something. I can imagine that we don't. Using the word we, we don't say. That could have been a little bit, I don't know, triggering isn't the right word, but like overly judgmental, I guess because it's like, like we were just saying let's not bring in all these like random third people that, you know. Like, oh yeah, well I, all these other people also feel the same way. Like, you know, it could have, you could have shared that just based on how you yourself feel and hoped hope because hopefully other people in that room would have backed you up. Like, yeah, I don't like, I don't like that word either. I, I think that word is offensive and racist and whatever it is versus, you know, you made a judgment of, oh, nobody else here agrees with this. Even though I'm assuming that that was a fair assumption that nobody else agrees with that. But I think that maybe that could have been challenging for her to hear. Like, oh, this person that is, you know, only more recently in my family is telling me how my family feels about something. I'm not saying that she's right about that. I'm just trying to see, I'm just trying to point out how that could have really kind of thrown things for a loop to start with. It made it a very defensive conversation from the get go rather than opening the door for, you know, a more understanding conversation that still could have gone off the rails later, but you could have started with the possibility of it being a more civil conversation.

Yeah, I feel really torn on this one because I do think it's very important to speak up for any sort of injustice, racism, bigotry, anything like that. And I think, especially if you are not a part of that marginalized community, that that's a way to be an ally. It's like being willing to have those tough conversations and call things out and not just like sit there quietly and let that behavior continue.

Oh, yeah, absolutely.

So I do think you were in the right for saying something. Something. But I think that the way that you said it, we could have tweaked the way that you said it.

Yeah, I mean, I'm thinking you could have just been as simple of a tweak as. Ooh, I don't think it is okay to say that.

That's exactly what I was thinking. I was actually what popped or I'm, I'm not okay.

I'm not okay with hearing. I'm not okay with using that and I'm not okay with hearing that.

Yeah, like we had dinner a while ago. I'm just going to keep this very vague. Like with some family and somebody said a similar type of word. It's not like a wildly offensive word, but a word that like doesn't really get used anymore. That's like not appropriate to use. And so what we did is like turn that into a teaching moment of like, oh, hey, actually that's like not a word that people are using anymore. And the person who said it was like very confused. They were an older person as well and was like, oh, I didn't know that. Like, why is that? What's offensive about it? And so it turned into like a really great conversation where we were able to educate.

Yeah, a teaching model.

Yeah, a teaching moment rather than a.

Like a defending myself moment.

Yeah. So I think like, and especially if your mother in law has never, you know, said similar things before or been a hateful person, like, I think kind of giving somebody the benefit of the doubt and saying, you know, kind of phrasing it more like that rather than, that's extremely rude. The other thing that I'm a little bit caught in, caught up around is like the fact that the, the niece was there. So one part of me was thinking initially, like, would it have been better because it sounds like, you know, you're around a whole table. It probably felt very embarrassing in the moment to be called out in front of a ton of people. So part of me was thinking, would it be better to have pulled the mother law aside at some other point and said, hey, just I Just wanted to share with you. This isn't a word that's appropriate to use. Blah, blah, blah, or. But then it's like, but then the child who is there, you know, they've never had that experience of, of hearing that that word is not appropriate. Maybe they could have. It wasn't their child, right? Yeah. It was the niece. So maybe they could have also talked to the, you know, you could have.

Talked to the mom, to the parents.

Kids and said like, maybe do you want to talk to her about. But then it's like, it's not your kid. So you don't really get to decide. I'm just torn. I'm like, should they have said something in front of the whole group? So that child gets the experience of hearing like, oh, that word is not okay. Or is it like, it's not your kids. So you've really got to let their parents decide what to teach them about language.

Yeah. I mean, that's why I was advocating for the phrasing that I suggested of like. I don't think that is an appropriate thing to say. I don't feel comfortable with that term. I think that that's a, you know, a demeaning and offensive term. Whereas you're sticking to your experience and being very clear and very boundaried. You're not making like a judgment or saying something offensive to, you know, this niece's. Wait. Grandmother. Oh, God, I'm bad with family terms. I'd probably. Yeah, Grandmother. Yeah. Like you're not calling them out, but you are calling out the fact that you yourself are not okay with this. That opens the door for the niece to ask, you know, the niece's mom and dad later, hey, like, what, what happened there? Or it cues them up to have a conversation, but you're not dictating exactly what that conversation is. I think that kind of leaves all the options on the table rather than kind of taking all the options away where you're like, no, like, I'm. I'm telling you how it is. I'm telling this, you know, this eight year old niece, how it is and it's going exact. Well, nine year old. Like, it's going exactly the way that I want it to.

Yeah. I'm curious to hear from people who are parents, like, what would you do in a situation like that where it wasn't your child? So DM us on Instagram. We're at Vanessa and Xander. It is a very tricky one.

It's really tricky.

Yeah. So ultimately though, like, it makes me very sad to hear that since then there has been zero communication between you and your mother in law and sister in law. Like, because this does feel like, yes, your mother in law should absolutely not have said that word. But to have one word like totally fractured the relationship between the two of you, like, feels really sad. I mean, the mother in law did dig in a little bit and I, I do not love that she said, like, I'm in my 70s, I can't be expected to change my wording. My hope there is that that was just like her feeling really defensive and ashamed and trying to like, I don't know. So I, I hope that that's not actually how she feels. But anyways, I do think that this is worth looping back around to and trying to salvage the relationship. So I would, if I was in this situation, I would just try to be the bigger person here and apologize to the sister in law and mother in law and maybe just shoot them a joint message or separately and just say, hey, look, I know it's been a while since this incident. I'm finding myself like feeling really sad that we haven't talked since then. I apologize for the way that I brought it up. You know, upon reflecting, I realized that I could have said it in a different way or used a different tone. And I'm sorry for the way that I brought it up. I really hope that we can have a conversation about this and move on because I love you, I care about you. I want us to have a relationship. All right, let's wrap this up with our last one. My mother in law is a kleptomaniac. Oh, and on top of this, constantly leeches off my wife. Most days she will ask for small amounts of money ranging from tenner to 50 pounds. Got a little a Brit here.

A Brit?

Yeah, a tenner. And my wife will always send it to her because she's my mum and I can't say no. We can't let her mom in the house when we are not around because she will take things such as money or small belongings and deny it if we ever accuse her. It causes a big amount of pressure in our relationship and I'm always left wondering if I'm being the asshole here. Every time I get upset with my wife for giving her the money, it gets turned around on me and I'm told I'm just making the situation worse. It's worth mentioning her mom almost never gives her the money back. And I almost feel like we will never have the chance to save because she's always having to Support her mom. Another complex one.

Wow, this is, this is a tough one. This sounds.

I mean, so the mother in law is definitely the asshole for stealing your stuff. Like, I just, like, that's, that's pretty wild to imagine, like, not feeling like you can't leave your mother in law in your house because she will steal your things.

Yeah. I mean, it sounds like your mother in law has a. Is a easily diagnosable mental. Mental illness.

Kleptomania. I don't mean to, like, laugh about it. It's not a funny thing. Like, this is a mental illness. This is something that your mother in law needs help with. So we need to have some empathy for her. But yeah, it's ultimately, even though this is a mental health issue, like, she should not be stealing things from you. Yes, that part of it is very clear.

Yes.

But the money aspect of it, yeah, that's tough.

No, I don't think that you are an asshole for having some feelings about this and just feeling conflicted or just having the desire for. Hey, having the desire of like, it would be great to not have to be giving her money all the time. I don't think that you are an asshole for feeling that way. I think that this is. On the other hand, though, this is a very tricky situation. I think that. I think that you and your. And your wife would. It would be a great idea to get into some couples therapy to talk through this. Because there's obviously a lot of things tied up in this dynamic for your wife. Because like she says it's. It is true, it is her mom. This is obviously a dynamic that has been around far longer than you've been in your wife's life.

Oh, yeah.

And so I think that it's important to have some respect for those family dynamics. I'm not saying that you need to like, be like, oh, well, this is just the way it is. I'll never understand it. But I think that it's really easy to kind of parachute in and observe someone else's family dynamics and be like, oh, that's up. Like, you just need to stop. And I think that we all need to have some respect that it is very challenging to break out of hurtful and harmful family dynamics. Many people spend a lifetime trying to work through these things, even if they're in therapy and have the most support. This is really, really hard to do.

So here's the thing. Like, I think that the reason that this is becoming such a big issue is because it's broken down into these small moments. Like she's just asking for a tenner here and there where it doesn't feel, oh, it's just like 10 bucks. Like, okay, it doesn't feel like that big of a deal. But I think that what you and your wife need to do is to sit down together and come up with a specific plan for how much money you can give to your mother in law.

Yes.

And I would, I would view this as giving it, not loaning it to her.

It's a budget. Yeah, you have to budget. It's a line item in your budget.

So I would tell your why. I would start with like empathizing with her and I would, you know, say something like, yeah, this is your mom. Of course you want to take care of her. Of course you want to make sure she's okay. I am happy for us to support your mom, but I want us to come up with a specific plan for how we are going to do that. So I would look at your budget and say, okay, we've got an extra 50 bucks a month or an extra 100 bucks a month or whatever it is. And in that conversation, I would also talk about the thing savings, because they mentioned at the very end, like, I feel like we'll never have a chance to save. So that should be a part of the budget conversation too. How much do we want to set aside for savings every month? Okay, if we want to set aside 200 for savings, and that means we can only give 50 to your mom or, you know, whatever the specific numbers are. I'm obviously just making things up here. So come up with a specific budget of how much money you can give to the mom and then communicate that to the mom too. Hey, mom, we love you. We want to take care of you. We have this much money per month that we're just gonna give you as a gift. You can spend it however you want, but that is the limit of what we can give to you. So you're giving it to her on a monthly basis rather than her coming to you guys whenever she wants money.

Yeah. Alternatively, you don't have to tell her, oh, I'm gonna give you up to 200 or I'm gonna give you 200 this month, or whatever the number is. Alternatively, you could say like, okay, well, what is our budget for this month? Or what is our budget for the year? And you keep track of how much you're giving her. And once you hit that, you go, you know, I'm really sorry. Like, this isn't in our budget anymore. You know something interesting, I Kind of.

Lean more towards just like making it clear to the mom, like, straight up, you know, right in front. Because I think the mother in law probably thinks she's being a little bit sneaky by like, oh, I'm just, you know, just a little tenor here and there kind of thing. But if they kind of tell her, like, we know the game you're playing, okay, we can give you some money. We do want to take care of you. And also, I want to be clear in saying you don't have to give her any money. Like, I do get that this is complicated with parents, you know, especially when they get older. We feel like, you know, like you do. There is. I mean, this is a whole other episode, like the obligation for taking care of parents. But I just want to say, like, you never have to do anything. Like, you guys could decide, like, we can't give mom money anymore, or like, maybe you feel like you're enabling her by giving her money in certain ways. Like, so I just want to make that clear. But I kind of lean more towards making it more clear and upfront to your mom and saying, because then it gives you the control and the authority back. So rather than her like, oh, I want money. Oh, I want money. Oh, I want money. Oh, no, sorry, mom. You, like, hit the limit that you didn't know about. Like, just coming straight to her and saying, we are giving this to you. This is your allowance for the month. There is no more after that. But, you know, do what, do with this what you want.

Yeah, no, I totally agree. And I, I was going to make that same suggestion about budgeting it all out. I would venture a guess that, that you and your wife don't have a super clear, well defined budget yet. Because, because you don't have a clear, like, oh, yeah, well, this is our savings goal. This is what we want to set aside each month, or this is what we want to set aside each year. And, you know, hearing that your wife is just saying, oh, well, it's just a little money here or there implies to me that you guys don't have a clear thing laid out. And I think that this can be a stumbling block for a lot of couples. When an issue like this comes up, it can be really hard to key in on how to handle this issue because you haven't done this broader budgeting exercise yet. And it can feel like, oh, well, I don't want to do that budgeting thing. So then, so then we kind of dance around the issue of, you know, okay, well, how much is Enough to give to the mom. Whereas if you were to get both partners totally enrolled in, hey, like, this is how much we want to be setting aside, or this is how much we need to be setting aside in order to retire, in order to go on the vacation that we want to go on, in order to buy the house that we want to buy. It's so much easier when you both get on board with, all right, what is it? What are our goals? What do we want to be able to do? How much money do we need to do that? Okay, how much do we need to be setting aside? All right, now that we know how much we need to be setting aside, let's look at what is left and apply that to the expenses that we have, and you can pretty quickly get to a general sense of, all right, so this is how much is left in there, or there isn't anything left in there. And, you know, the numbers really don't lie as much as our minds do when we're trying to kind of do this all in our head. So I think that is such an easier way. I know it'll take some more work, and it's a whole other project that you have to do. But if you can get on the same page about what it is that you are trying to achieve, then it becomes a lot clearer of, like, oh, okay, yeah, right now, God, we're giving her triple what we have available to give her to be able to hit these savings goals that we need to be able to retire or to even to be able to support the mother later on in life. And so it's just gonna make it so much more clear around, like, okay, yeah, this is what we can do. This is what we can't do, rather. Cause right now, you're in a bit of a dynamic where it probably feels to your wife like you're judging her for her choice to give to the mother. And it's gonna be really hard to get out of that dynamic until you guys get on the same page about what your goals are.

All right, well, that wraps up our episode. We have so many more questions and scenarios you guys sent in. So let us know if you like this format. Let us know if you have a different angle for Am I the Asshole? We can keep doing all sorts of, like, additions. So come on over to Instagram. We're at Vanessa and Xander, Xander's with an X. And let us know what our next edition should be. And please make sure to follow pillow talks so you can stay up to date on all of our new episodes to follow, you just need to head to the main podcast page where it lists all of the Pillow Talks episodes. You'll see the word follow under the logo on Spotify, and on Apple Podcasts you'll see the follow with a plus sign button in the top right. Following our podcast means you will never miss out on a new episode because it will show up right in your feed. And it also really helps helps us as well, and especially if you listen on Apple podcasts. They implemented a new change in the last couple of months where they are automatically unsubscribing you, like unfollowing you from podcasts that you listen to. I actually went into my Apple podcast and went over to the main Pillow Talks page and I was unfollowed from our own podcast, Rude. So even if you feel like you have done this before, please just take one quick second to double check that on Apple Podcasts it really makes a big difference.

All right, well that's all for today's episode of Pillow Talks. Thank you so much for listening. Join us again next week when we talk about what to do when it's been a while since you last had sex in your long term relationship.