EPISODE 158: Maybe It’s Not Low Libido…

In male female relationships, almost half of the time, the woman is the one who has a higher sex drive. But because we never talk about it, all of these couples feel like something is horribly wrong with them or they're broken. Hello and welcome to the Pillow Talks podcast. We're your hosts, Vanessa and Zander Marin. I'm a sex Therapist with over 20 years of experience, and I'm just a regular.

We share the ups and downs in our relationship while giving you step by step techniques for improving yours.

Make sure you subscribe for your weekly double date full of totally doable sex tips, practical relationship advice, hilarious and honest stories of what really goes on behind closed bedroom doors, and so much more. It's the sex education you wish you'd had. Today's episode is inspired by a couple of reels that we posted on Instagram that immediately went viral.

Viral.

And the theme of those reels was the theme of this episode. Maybe it's not low libido. Maybe it's fill in the blank. As a sex therapist, low libido has always been one of the biggest complaints that I've heard about from my clients. And our Instagram community is no different. We put a few polls up there and we discovered that 74% of our community say that their libido is. Is currently low.

Wow.

It feels low. And 88% said that they have had a season of low libido at some point in their relationship. But it poses an interesting question. Is libido really the issue?

Well, while you think about what the answer to that question is, let me give you the review of the week. We're going to leave you on a little cliffhanger here this week.

A very short four minute cliffhanger, actually. Before you read your review, can you talk a little bit about why we do this? Why reviews matter?

Why reviews matter? Well, they make me feel good. They also make Vanessa feel good.

Okay, but the real reason.

Well, the real answer is that reviews are one of the best ways, if not the very best way, for a podcast to grow the reviews. Having more reviews and having more better reviews, obviously, I think that goes without saying.

Terrible reviews.

Yeah. I mean, please, please don't leave us a one star review. Like just go listen to another podcast. But no, if you enjoy the podcast, leave us an excellent review. Because the more reviews that we have, and the more better reviews that we have, the more that signals to those podcast providers like Spotify, Apple, et cetera, it signals to them, hey, we are, we must be a pretty legit podcast because people are Saying they like what we have to say. Also, if you're looking for a brand new podcast or maybe if a friend sends you a podcast episode, you might go and look at that podcast page and be like, you do I do I trust these people? Do I wanna listen to these people? And you probably your eye would go straight to what, like, how many stars does it have? Does it have like 5 reviews or does it have 500 reviews? So the more reviews we get, the more we can, you know, have our podcast featured on those podcast providers, the more legit we think we're pretty legit, but, you know, the more legit we look to, you know, to other just random people like that. That's how you find good stuff. So it really, really helps. And also, this is a tricky topic. You know, sex is a trip tricky topic that people can feel a little hesitant to talk about. And so I think just seeing other people, like, being willing to say, like, hey, I love talk. Like, I love hearing these guys talk about this, I think really goes a long way in helping people realize, oh, yeah, like this is okay to listen to. Like, it kind of helps change people's mindset. Like, oh, wow, like they must be talking about something really, they must have something really great to say because other people, they're inspiring other people to talk openly about it too. So with that, here's this week's review of the week. Good for the whole family. Oh. My husband and I have been together for over 30 years and v and X have definitely improved both our sex lives and communication. We have two daughters, 21 and 23, and have shared your podcast with them and given them your book. They were tentative at first, thinking there is no way they could possibly listen to something that we recommend, especially about sexual. However, after one rough patch our daughter had with her boyfriend, I sent her several of your episodes to help. She reported back that she loved the podcast and thought it was funny and very helpful. Now they are sharing with their friends, keep the podcasts coming. We love them all. And then there's a whole string of sexy emojis.

Oh, this is an OG listener because we used to have a, like stump Xander with emojis part of our reviews. Oh my God, this makes like my heart is just bursting right now.

This is like really exactly why we do what we do. This is seeing it happen.

Generational impact, generation healing. So fucking cool. So congrats to you guys for listening to this. We're so glad that we affected your relationship, but a really big congrats for sharing it. With your kiddos. Like, that's so cool. Oh my God, I love that. I just. I'm gonna have to stop because this is too meaningful for me.

You can cry. It's okay.

Sweet. So one other part of our review of the week is that it's actually a little giveaway. So if you hear your review read on an episode, you can come on over and email us@infovm therapy.com and we will give you a little prize as a thank you.

Yeah, so I mean, if this person reaches out, I feel like maybe we should give prizes to them, but also to their kids.

Oh, to the whole family.

Yeah, you know, like, like the, like the subject. Good for the whole family. We can be good for the whole family.

And the place to leave reviews is on Apple Podcasts. Unfortunately, at the time, that is the only place where you can leave a review. But you can also like star us on Spotify.

Follow us. Yes, follow Smash those five stars. Follow subscribe all the words.

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All right, so let's get into the episode. Before we start, Xander, I would love to hear you say maybe it's not low libido. Like in the. In the theme of the maybe It's Maybelline song.

You know, you. This is sad. You were singing that song earlier and I. I don't know the song. Maybe it's not low libido. Maybe it's Maybelline.

We're never gonna get Maybelline to be a podcast sponsor with that.

Sorry.

Maybe it's Maybelline.

Maybe it's not low libido.

It's a few too many syllables. Okay, so here's the thing, though. When the spark dies off in a relationship, it is very easy to blame it on libido. I think most of us are very quick to feel like, oh, it's my issue. We're not because my libido is too low. Or it could be the other way. Like, we're not having sex because my partner's libido is too low. Like, we just are so fast to go to the sex drive aspect of it. Like, everything's wrong because of sex drive.

You know, I think part of that even is that blaming it on the libido is almost a way of depersonalizing it a little bit because we feel so disc. Like, I feel like most people feel already disconnected from, like, what your libido actually is. And it's like, well, it's not really me, it's my libido.

That's an interesting point because I was going to say the exact opposite, that we, like, overly personalize it and blame ourselves, but in a funny sort of way, maybe it's both. It's like we both. We blame ourselves, but also we feel so disconnected from our sex drive, that it feels impersonal, and it feels like this other. This third thing. Like, oh, it's you, it's me, and, like, libido. But the main point that we want to make in this episode is that there are so many other factors at play and other than just libido. So we made two different reels here. We made one from a woman's perspective, and we made one from a man's perspective. And we're going to go through each of them, like, the specific points that we called out in those reels and talk about them in more detail. Because, of course, like, in an Instagram reel, you have, you know, 15 seconds. So we just, like, listed all of these things, but didn't share any sort of explanation or background behind them. So we thought this would be a perfect podcast episode so we can dive into them in more detail. But before we really go into that, I think it's important, name a couple of things. Like, first, anything in the woman category can apply to a man or someone of any gender, you know, and vice versa. Like, so these aren't exclusively. Like, only women experience this type of thing. We really went with, like, you know, overall, we tend to see these patterns in genders, but, you know, anybody can. Can fall into it. Okay, so let's get into the female perspective. Libido. So we said, maybe it's not low libido. Maybe it's that the sex you're having isn't really worth craving. And that is, like, one of the most important points that we make. We sometimes. We have a couple of names for this. We sometimes call it the white toast problem, and we sometimes call it the mushy broccoli problem. We have a different reel that we did about the mushy broccoli, but the way that we, like, played that one out is we were like, do you ever find yourself absolutely craving a bowl of overly steamed mushy broccoli? No. Most people don't enjoy it, so we don't crave that. And we don't beat ourselves up for not craving it. It makes sense to us. Like, yeah, why would I be craving that? I don't enjoy it. The exact same thing is true when it comes to sex. But, I mean, the overly steamed, mushy broccoli. I do love broccoli. Yeah, broccoli does.

Broccoli is good.

I like some good broccoli.

But we don't.

We often don't make that connection when it comes to sex. Like, if we're not having Good sex. It feels pleasurable and satisfying and connecting and orgasmic. Like, why would we find ourselves craving that?

Yeah, it doesn't make any sense.

And unfortunately that's something that so many women, especially women in male, female relationships are struggling with. Like a lot of women do not actually enjoy the sex that they're having and then on top of that they're beating themselves up for not wanting it more. But it's like, well, why would you want it if you're not enjoying it? Okay, I'm going to move us along because I already know, like with each of these little points that we talk about, these are entire episodes in and of themselves. So I'm just going to move us along before I start going on even more of a rant about the enjoyment, Desire, connection. So maybe it's not low libido, maybe it's that your partner only ever touches you when they want sex.

This is such a common dynamic that happens especially in male female relationships and especially as the years go on. I think this is something that nearly every long term couple falls into at some point and very often doesn't realize that they fall into this dynamic until it started to do some damage.

We actually have an entirely separate episode all about something that we call the bristle reaction, which is when you have so little touch in your relationship where you're really only ever touching each other when you want sex, that you start bristling when your partner touches you. It's just like, oh, I know what you want. Like it feels like that touch has a motive or it's for you, it's not for me. So that's definitely a great episode to check out if you find yourself doing that. It is episode 130. But yeah, if you're not having any physical contact with your partner, it's also going to have an impact on your libido. Like you're gonna find yourself just struggling to get turned on if you feel like your partner's only really ever touching you for their sake, not for your.

I think the flip side of this too is like it could be that, that you just described. It could also be if you, if sex is not ever being initiated verbally in your relationship, if sex is only being initiated via touch, then you know, then that starts to become a problem because then you're like, oh, well, okay, touch equals they want sex. Rather than, you know, a clear verbal initiation where you know, like where you know, oh, okay, they are saying they would like to have sex. Would I like to have sex too? Rather than this Unclear. This touch where it's like, it could mean all kinds of things, but we've just started to assume it must, must be a sexual initiation.

So if you're listening to this and realizing, like, ooh, yeah, the sex that I'm having, it makes perfect sense why I'm not craving it. Do not fear. This is our sweet spot. We love making learning how to have incredible, extraordinary sex feel so fun, playful, and unintimidating. So we are going to link two of our most popular guides in the show notes for you, our ultimate foreplay guides and Next level, Intercourse. They both have just absolutely amazing techniques to use. They're so much fun. We show you how to go through them with your partner in a way that is not at all intimidating. It's not going to make your partner feel bad. They're just super sexy to go through together. So we will link both of those.

And if you just heard that and you're like, oh, shit, verbal initiation. What's that? I don't feel comfortable with that. My partner doesn't know how to do that. We got something for you as well. You should check out the Art of Initiation, where we walk you through exactly how to initiate sex in exciting, enticing ways. Whether that's verbal, whether that's a combination of verbal and other things. But the whole point of that is just figuring out what type of initiation each of you really like and identifying the ones that you don't like. So this really help you get out of that rut of like, oh, it's only touch. And so you can figure out what types of initiation you like, what types your partner likes, get you both feeling super confident so that you know, oh, yeah, I'm initiating in the way that my partner really likes so that I am increasing my chances of getting a yes. You're going to want to check out that course. That is one of our free favorite. We had so much fun creating that one and coming up with all these tips, so you're definitely going to want to check that out too.

Maybe it's not low libido. Maybe it's that you can't remember the last time you had a date night or even a moderately meaningful conversation.

Ooh, going in on this one.

There are two types of people in the world. There are people who like to feel connected before having sex, and there are people who like to have sex as a way of feeling emotionally connected. And of course, in one of life's cruel twists of fate, those people usually find each other and start a relationship together. And we have found that the vast majority of women want to experience emotional connection before the physical connection. So if you fall into that category, if you're feeling disconnected from your partner, it makes perfect sense why you don't have very much of a desire for them either. It's like you're feeling like a stranger. I don't really want to have sex with with a stranger. Like, I want to have sex with somebody that I feel very connected to and intimate with. So we have an entirely separate podcast episode about this topic as well. That's episode 38. You want connection. Your partner wants sex. Who comes first? And we will spoil it for you. We think that the emotional connection should come first. Not because it's better than or more valid than physical intimacy. Like, physical intimacy is just as important as emotional intimacy. But in that episode 38, we outlined for you why we think that emotional connection should come first. But again, like, the point we want to make here is it makes a lot of sense, and it's okay if you find yourself feeling like, you know. Yeah, my partner and I, we don't spend very much quality time together. Our conversations are mostly about, like, how was your day? And, oh, the weather is interesting again, Isn't it interesting? Weather's never interesting, but we all end up talking about weather, like, way more than we need to.

The weather is weird.

But, yeah, the bottom line is, like, if you're feeling disconnected, it makes a lot of sense to not want be intimate with your partner.

And you might be surprised that once you do start feeling connected, how much that libido could come back. I mean, I think a lot of us always look back super fondly at the beginning of relationships and thinking about, like, oh, it was so easy. Like, we wanted to have sex so often. And I think a big part of that is that you're feeling super connected. Like, you guys are having all kinds of conversations where you're learning things about each other, right? Like, you feel super excited to get to know each other better, and somehow we get to a point where we're like, oh, I already know everything there is to know about my partner, despite the fact that we are, like, growing, changing human beings that have, like, new experiences every day. So there's no actual way to ever know everything there is to know about one person. But, yeah, we forget that it is possible to continue to get to know our partner and to, you know, I would argue that it is totally possible to continue feeling maybe not that extreme, like, because there's a. There's a neurological, like, a neurotransmitter component that can't be replicated from the very beginning. But, like, you can still be excited to get to know someone and feel so connected. And, you know, it is possible to feel that same amount of excitement about having sex with your partner as you did at the beginning. It's just about getting that connection back.

Maybe it's not low libido. Maybe it's that you're carrying all of the mental load in your relationship, or at least. At least a lot of it. So this is another connection that most people don't make. You may not even have heard of mental load, but it's basically the invisible labor that goes into running a household. So it's not just having to do chores, but it's also remembering things like, oh, we have to get paper towels, and the kids need to have a dentist appointment next month. And little Timmy. I always use Timmy for some reason. I don't know why that name comes to mind so much when I'm doing that. So, like, little Timmy doesn't like that brand of toothpaste. Have to get him the other type of toothpaste. It's like all that. That running list in our head, but a lot of us don't make that connection that. That can actually really get in the way of libido. It can actually get in the way both of desire and enjoyment. Like a lot of women tell us in the moment during sex, I'm trying to enjoy it, but my mind is racing, like, going through my to do list, going over all those mental load items, and I find it really hard to be present and actually enjoy sex.

And.

And of course, can definitely get in the way of your desire too. Like, it can feel like your to do list takes up so much space in your head that there's not the space for desire. And of course, if you feel like there's an imbalance in your relationship, that is very likely to lead to resentment in your relationship. And it can even make it feel frustrating when your partner wants sex. It can stir up this reaction of, like, like, I am doing so much for you, so much for this household. And sex is like yet another thing that you need from me.

Yeah, I mean, like, you become so task oriented because that's. Because you're taking on all the tasks that then sex starts to feel like just another task on the list that has nothing to do with you and everything to do with your partner. And. And. And, you know, that can make the resentment even. It's like, not only is your partner not Doing, you know, not taking responsibility for more things around the house to help balance that load. But they are also adding to the list with their own thing. And it's. Then it becomes like, oh, you know, like, it's for them, it's not for me. And of course you feel disconnected from sex. Of course you don't want sex.

Maybe it's not low libido. Maybe it's the fact that you're experiencing pain during sex. Pain is actually one of the top three causes of low libido. And this is another thing that it makes so much sense when you hear it out loud. But a lot of people don't put together that connection. Like, if you are experiencing pain, you are not going to feel desire. Our bodies are hardwired to avoid pain. So you're not going to be super high sex drive if the experience of sex itself is causing you pain.

Yeah, I mean, this is a more extreme version of the first one that, like, maybe the sex you're having isn't really worth craving. It's like, not only is the sex you're having met, like it is actively causing you.

Yeah.

Actually causing you pain.

We have a whole episode about this, too. It's episode 72, the lowdown on painful sex. Maybe it's not low libido. Maybe it's that you're so touched out that it feels overwhelming to have yet another human needing something from your body. So if you haven't heard the phrase touched out, it's the feeling that primary caregivers get when they're being touched all day long. So it happens like with your kids. You know, they're literally clinging to you. Babies are literally relying on a woman's body for survival. And you get touched out. Like, your body is just like, I cannot be touched anymore. This is too much physical contact. And so sex can feel like yet another thing that somebody needs from your body. It can feel depersonalized in a way, too. It's just like, oh, my body's just here to, like, take care of you, to sustain you, to bring you pleasure. And it just doesn't feel like you're getting any from it yourself. So we hear about this a lot from moms, especially new moms, and a lot of women don't. Again, it's like, this is the common pattern that we're seeing. Like, oh, I didn't realize that that was playing into my libido.

And this one probably pairs really well with the, like, if. If you're already having sex that wasn't particularly worth craving. And you're also touched out. And maybe the mental load is also imbalanced. Like, these things start to really compound where it's like, oh, God, like, yeah, like, my body is not open for that. Especially because, like, I not even enjoying it if my body was open to it.

Maybe it's not low libido. Maybe it's the fact that your partner's idea of initiation is honking your boobs while you are doing the dishes.

Busted.

We talked a bit about initiation already with that bristle reaction one, but we wanted to make it, like, even more clear with this one that initiation plays such a huge role in desire. Like, if your partner is initiating in ways that you don't like, not only is it not going to contribute to desire, it's like, actively turning you off. Like, we have pulled this before, the boob honk thing. 99% of women say that they do not like the boob honk. And especially not as initiation. We always get, like, two women who are like, actually, I kind of like it.

It's a very, very loud minority. If you happen to be with one of these people.

Two women.

If you happen to be with one of these people, you probably already know it because they seem to be very, very proud of the fact that they love the boob honk. More power to you. Hell yeah. Honk those boobs.

So initiation is something that we all need to improve. We need to recognize how important it is. And I think that tying it to desire can actually be the motivation that a lot of us need to make initiation better. Like, if you can recognize. Oh, yeah. The way that my partner initiates, like, that actually does play a very large role in my desire. Like, whether or not I want to say yes to it, then that can feel very motivating to say. Okay, you know what? Let's sign up for that Art of Initiation course that Xander mentioned. Let's check it out. But, yeah, I think, you know, it also affects enjoyment, too. Like, if you're starting sex by initiating in a bad way where you feel a little icky. Yeah. Let's say even I'm turned on. I'm horny. I want to have sex. Xander gives me the boob honk even if I hate it. And I. But I'm like, okay, but I'm, like, really horny. So fine. Like, let's do this.

Or I was really horny.

Yeah, I'm still starting on a bad foot. Like, I did not like that. Like, myself. Stomach just as a, like, is roiling. That was gross. And I Didn't like it.

Yeah. I mean, imagine, like, you're super hungry for a meal, and you, like, take the first bite and your stomach kind of turns. Like, you're not. Like, you probably are still hungry. You probably still remember that you have that. That feeling of extreme hunger. But then you're like, ooh, I'm a little hesitant now.

All right, so those were our main categories for women. Let's switch over to the men.

Yeah, let's. Let's do the guys. Let's get started. Maybe it's not low libido. Maybe it's that you lost your erection during sex and now you're freaked out. It's gonna happen again. This is such a common one. So many of us just don't ever want to have a performance issue and want to live our lives thinking, like, oh, yeah, no, like, if I'm good at sex, like, I'm never gonna have a performance issue. But the reality is, is that all. All penis owners are going to experience some kind of performance issue at some point in time. The problem is we don't want to acknowledge that this is something that just happens and doesn't, Usually doesn't, always, almost never has a real reason. I know for me, I've experienced this, and it just so quickly goes into this downward spiral where you're like, okay, that was really embarrassing. God, I really don't want that to happen again. So then the next time sex is starting to happen, at first you're like, oh, yeah, like, I'm gonna not have a performance problem this time. I'm gonna show them. I'm gonna show myself. And then you start thinking, wait, what if it happens again? God, I was so confident last time. And then, like, something happened and things went off the rails. And then it just sneaks into your head and kind of, like, mental load where, like, you're thinking about your to do list. All of a sudden you're thinking about what's going to happen. Oh, God, what am I going to say if it happens again? And before you know it, it's happening again because your head is. You're not actually focused on sex and you're not focused on enjoying sex. And. And I think that this is just such a common thing for guys. And the key is just like, we gotta be able to talk openly about these performance issues.

Well, and I think it makes perfect sense that if you're feeling anxiety about your performance, of course there's gonna be a part of you that doesn't wanna have sex. Like, even if there is a Part of you that does. There's another part of you that's like, oh, I don't wanna put myself in this situation where I could embarrass myself again. So there is a very important and powerful connection between those two things. Now, if you are the partner of somebody who's experienced performance issues, then check out episode 149. We go into like, what to do and what not to do to be a supportive partner.

There are a lot of things not to do. So that's a great episode to listen to. All right, maybe it's not low libido. Maybe it's that she has a relatively higher libido and neither of you realize just how normal that is.

This is something that does not get talked about enough in male female relationships. Almost half of the time, the woman is the one who has a higher sex drive. But because we never talk about it, all of these couples feel like something is horribly wrong with them or they're broken. And I think both partners in that relationship can beat themselves up feeling like something's wrong with them. But it's not. It's just that sex drive is relative. Like, you can be in a relationship with one person and be the higher drive person and with another person and be the lower drive person. You can also have seasons of your life where you have. The roles are reversed. But we just really wanted to call attention to the fact that it's normal for a guy to want sex less than his partner does. That doesn't mean he's low libido. It doesn't mean anything's wrong with him. It just means that's how libido works.

Yeah, guys are so conditioned to, like, you're supposed to always want it. Your sex drive is going to be higher than your partner's. Like, your job is to want sex and your partner's job is to like, kind of be coy about it and then like, maybe accept sometimes. Right. I think another part of it, like, I know I experienced this with you. I really experienced this with you for the first time in our relationship. Because you were the first, like, you were the first person that I ever like, actually moved in with and lived with. And I think that, you know, one of the things that can kind of mess, you know, with. With guys, heads especially, is that. But, you know, at first, you know, my sexual experiences were mostly in college and it was like I wasn't living with any of my girlfriends. And so, like, the times that we would get together were times where it was like, oh, I have Free time. I'm like, maybe already thinking about wanting to have sex. And so it's like I'm already, like, I'm already kind of primed to be wanting to have sex at the times when we are together. And then all of a sudden, it was like, we are living together. And, you know, you suggested having sex sometimes in times where I didn't want it. And I was like, I've never had this experience before. And that was a. That's like a challenging kind of confronting thing. And nobody had ever talked about that to me up to that point in my life. Maybe it's not lo libido. Maybe it's that sometimes she wants it in moments that you don't.

So obviously this one is really similar to what we just talked about, but we wanted to include it separately, too, because sometimes it's not even that one person has the higher or lower libido, but it's just like, in the moment, it happened to be, like, one singular moment that she wanted it and he didn't. And even though that's a very normal thing, because we are all so sensitive to this whole dynamic of, like, what does it mean if the woman has the higher drive? Like, individual moments can get really tense and fraught as well. So it doesn't even necessarily mean that there's a bigger overall pattern here, but it's just the individual moments.

And here's a kind of similar one. Maybe it's not lobido. Maybe it's that she needs you to prove that you're attracted to her by being ready to go at all times.

Yeah. Because we don't talk about how normal it is for the woman to want sex more. A lot of us women, we go to these pretty dark places in our heads where we feel like it means something's wrong with us if our partner doesn't want us all the time. Like, oh, I see all these dumb real of the husband, like, can't keep his hands off of her, and she's always having to bat him away. And so we turn it into this weird game in our heads of, like, I need you to prove to me that I'm desirable and sexy. And, like, you have to be ready to go at all times.

Yeah. Be a man.

Yeah. It's also just part of, like, the social script for men, too. Like, you're supposed to want it wherever, whenever kind of thing. And, like, I. I can say I've played this game before. Like, I know how easy it is to go to those places, but it's. You Know, in the end, like, it's really unhelpful to both partners because your partner like, shouldn't have to prove anything to you with his desire.

Or maybe it's not low libido. Maybe it's that your partner has rejected you so many times that you're afraid to initiate again. And honestly, this is one that we hear about kind of regardless of the gender. But you know, I definitely hear about this from men all the time who say, you know, okay, like I, I, I initiate sex most of the time and you know, my partner's rejected me like so many times in a row that now I'm just, I'm over it. Like, I, I don't, it doesn't feel good to be rejected. We also hear about this from women too. Or like, you know, oh, I, I don't know how to handle rejection. My partner rejected me a couple of times and now like, I'm just not open to doing it anymore. And the problem is when only one person is initiating sexual in a relationship, if one, if that partner decides, hey, I'm not initiating sex anymore, then guess what? No one is initiating sex, right? And then it's like you kind of both are like playing this weird game of chicken. You're like waiting to see if the other partner flinches or like you're testing the partner like, oh, if I don't initiate, like, how long is going to go by before you say something? Or how long is going to go by before you initiate? And I mean the answer to this one is that, but in any long term relationship, in really any relationship, doesn't matter the term or the length. Like it's so important for both partners to initiate because the reality is in a relationship it's important for both partners to feel wanted. And one of the best ways to feel wanted is to see your partner being vulnerable and saying, hey, I want you, I want to have sex with you. So we just think it is so important that, that both partners initiate. And we also recognize that it's so likely that both partners don't feel equally comfortable or maybe both partners, neither partner feels very comfortable or at least one partner feels quite uncomfortable with initiating sex. And that's just one more reason to check out the art of initiation. The, the link will be in the show notes. We, we just, we will reckon we will recommend that course until the cows come home. We think it is so undervalued and so like such an important skill for everybody, for everybody to get comfortable with and everybody to master. Maybe it's not Low libido. Maybe it's that you don't feel emotionally connected to your partner. So I know we just talked about how. The importance of emotional connection, but I think that the. The thing that I want to call out here is that while what. You know, while we find that. That more men tend to be, you know, prefer sex in order to feel connected, there are still plenty of men that like to feel emotional connection before they feel open to sex. And I am certainly one of those people. And that was something that took me a long time to really figure out and come to accept about myself because it almost. As I started to realize that, it almost felt like I was. I was less of a man because of that. Because we have this idea of, like, men always wanting to have sex, right? And I found myself, like, not wanting to have sex unless I was feeling really close with Vanessa or, like, things were in a good place. So I think that this is just an important one for the guys to recognize. If. If you relate with this idea of, like, sometimes the idea of sex feels great, and sometimes, like, if things feel tense or. Or disconnected between you, you're just not open to it. Like, it is. You are just as much of a man. Like, it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter like, if you want sex first or if you want emotional connection first. It's just that, hey, it's great that you know what you need and now you know what you need to do in order to get what you want. Okay, maybe it's not low libido. Maybe it's that you work 60 hours a week and you are exhausted.

So this one's one of the more straightforward ones. But a lot of us don't recognize how big of a role stress plays in sex drive. And this is a classic example of one that applies to people of any gender here. But if you are just feeling exhausted, run down, it feels like there's not even the time for sex. Like, it makes a lot of sense to not feel a super high libido.

I've definitely been in this one before, and that's. It's a hard one to recognize, especially as a man who's also conditioned to, like, want to provide and kind of, you know, it's easy to place his value on. Oh, like, my work and my success at work is sort of like a measure of how successful I am as a man, as a partner, as a provider. It can be really challenging to kind of reconcile, like, okay, well, I'm, like, putting in all these hours, but then, like, I may not actually be up to or able to, to provide emotional intimacy or physical intimacy in the way that I want. And so, you know, that could, that can be a tough thing to come to terms with of like, how do I balance all these competing things that I actually want to be able to do or want to be able to provide to my partner. And finally, maybe it's not low libido, maybe it's that your partner just lies there and makes you do all the work.

Ooh, Santa, tell us about this, because I think a lot of, a lot of women might be like, oh, yeah.

So what this one is getting at is when you are having sex and your partner kind of is not as involved or just not very involved in the sex, like maybe they don't really know what it is that they want or what it is that they like. Or you just don't really have a history of having like two sided sex, like sex that is for both partners.

And that's also part of the social script for women too. Like we're taught that we're just supposed to like, like the man's supposed to be in control and supposed to be in the lead. So a lot of us, it's not like we're doing anything nefarious, like I'm gonna force him to do all the work, but it's just like, I'm just gonna lie here. Like just what I'm supposed to do is just lie here. And I think a lot of women don't recognize that that puts a lot of pressure on men and it' enjoyable experience for them.

Now that being said, like, we're not saying that like one partner is not allowed to just kind of sit and receive or, or sit and enjoy because in different positions, like different partners can have, you know, different amounts of activity. But the key here is like, if you are more often than not kind of just not being an active participant in the experience, it is likely that over time, like, your partner is probably not going to enjoy that that much and definitely not going to be craving it and maybe even looking at it more of like, you know, looking at wanting to have sex just for a physical release rather than a shared experience, because they're not having much of a shared experience if you're not a part of it.

Now, before we end this episode, we wanted to ask a provocative question here, have a little debate. Is libido even that important? So obviously we've talked about like a lot of other things that it could be other than libido, but even like just the central idea of libido itself. Is it as important as most of us think it is? And for us, the answer is no. We've been playing around a lot lately with this comparison to eating. If you followed the podcast for a while, you know, eating comparisons, food comparisons are some of our favorite. But I was thinking about eating and I started asking myself the question, like, do I wait until I'm starving to eat? No. Like, sometimes I am hungry and that's why I eat. But there are also plenty of other reasons why we eat. Like, we eat because we're curious about how something tastes. We eat because we're bored. We eat because we want to have a shared experience with loved ones. We eat because food is fun, satisfying, interesting, and exciting.

And we definitely don't sit around waiting until we feel so starving that our only option is to eat. And the funny thing is, we actually even have a negative term for people who wait too long to eat. Like, you get hangry. Right? Like, we talk about that all the time. And in general, it's like, it is not desirable to be hangry. Like, you start. You start saying things you don't mean. You get cranky, you know, and actually, when you're super hangry, wouldn't you say, like, the. When you end up eating, it actually ends up feeling not even that satisfying? Right, True.

I don't know if that comparison stretches to sex. Well, I guess sometimes it can.

I know. I mean, or maybe it's that, like, you. You. You might build up such high expectations of what you are looking for out of sex. Like, oh, God, I've been waiting so long. Or I want it so bad. I mean, I think we hear about this sometimes with, you know, couples in, like, long distance relationships who haven't seen each other for a while, or getting out of a dry spell when you haven't had sex for a while. We can put these really high expectations on the sex. Oh, my God, it's been so long. It has to be perfect, right? And it can be. When we create high expectations, often we end up disappointed. It can be really hard to meet those expectations. So the question here is, why can't we view sex the same way? Like, you don't have to wait until you're starving. You don't have to wait until you're horngri.

Oh, my God.

What do you think about that, babe?

I don't know about that. Okay, I do want to back up for a second here and say, like, of course consent is important. It is of the utmost importance. So we are not saying, like, force yourself to have sex that you don't want to have.

I mean, just like, if you are sitting down to a meal with family or friends or your partner and you are, like, legitimately not hungry at all, food looks disgusting. Like, yeah, you wouldn't. You would be like, you know what this is? You know, usually I'm hungry at this time of the day, but I am, like, really not hungry. Or, like, my stomach is hurting. Like, you know, it would be fine to not eat.

And you also wouldn't accept somebody pressuring you to eat either. Like, that would not feel good. So we're not saying force yourself to, but what we are trying to say is that we put this unfair pressure on desire in the bedroom in a way that we don't outside of the bedroom. So, like, we want to feel desire, be super horny, be really turned on. Like, we feel this pressure to have this level of excitement that we don't have for things that we do outside of the bedroom. So I just think, like, what would your sex life look like if you approached physical intimacy with the same openness and curiosity as you do with food?

So the key here then is to start thinking about, okay, what are my other reasons to have sex other than being wildly horny? And there's all kinds of. Here are a couple ideas. Like, well, one, sex can feel really good. And you know that. Okay, it's probably, you know, if I do X, Y and Z, it's going to start feeling really good. And I'm going to enjoy that experience because also, like, you know how much more connected you're going to feel to your partner afterwards. So think about, hey, what does it feel like after we have sex? That feels really nice, right? Is that a feeling that I would like to be having sometime in the near future? Also, because it can be a huge stress relief. It can feel so relaxing and nice after you've had sex. After you've had an orgasm, it can help you sleep better. I think both of us have had that experience of, like, oh, I feel so good, and then I'm ready to fall asleep. And finally it can feel really playful. And I think that, like, play is a really underrated thing. When we are adults, we tend to think, oh, I'm an adult. I do adult things. But, like, even adults need to play. And sex is one of the few ways that are left for adults to really play with each other. And especially in a relationship, I think that is so important, at least for us in our relationship. That is super important. And the more that we've leaned into the playfulness, the happier we are. The more sex we have, the more satisfied we are with the sex that we do have.

Bottom line, we're putting way too much pressure on being turned on when it really does not need to matter as much as most of us feel like it does. All right, well, we hope this has been an interesting and validating episode for you. We mentioned a couple of guides that we're going to link in the show notes for you, our ultimate foreplay guides and next level intercourse, which will help you have the kind of sex that is worth craving and also the art of initiation to get you more excited to say yes to your partner.

All right, well, that's all for today's episode of Pillow Talks. Thank you so much for listening. Join us again next week when we're back with why Do Guys do this? Part two? Sam.