EPISODE 159: “Why Do Guys Do This?” - Xander Explains Male Behavior Part 2

Look, this is a sex therapist and her husband who have been doing this work for years and they are struggling to have a conversation about non sexual touch. I mean, this is, this conversation that we have just had I think is a great conversation starter. Hello and welcome to the Pillow Talks podcast. We're your hosts, Vanessa and Xander Marin. I'm a sex Therapist with over 20.

Years of experience and I'm just a regular dude. We share the ups and downs in our relationship while keeping giving you step by step techniques for improving yours.

Make sure you subscribe for your weekly double date full of totally doable sex tips, practical relationship advice, hilarious and honest stories of what really goes on behind closed bedroom doors, and so much more. It's the sex education you wish you'd had today. We're back with part two of why Do Guys do this?

Starring Xander. Oh, or me.

Wow. You're the star of this episode. Are you excited about that?

I mean, the series. I'm kind of the star of the show in that it's not starring me, it's like starring me speaking for all men. I have a lot of power in these episodes and it's exciting.

Wow. I'm glad that you're so into this.

It just feels good to be powerful.

We originally recorded part one almost a year ago. It was episode 120 and and we got such a great response to it. People said they really enjoyed it. So we decided we had to do a part two. So we are back today with even more questions, mostly from women very curious to understand the male brain a little bit better. So Xander is going to speak for all men this week and tell us why the hell guys do some of the most perplexing things they do.

But first, I want to ask you for a little bit of help. This is only going to take a second, but it is so meaningful for the success of our podcast. So whatever podcast app you are listening to this in smash that follow button, maybe it says follow, maybe it says subscribe. That means that you will never miss another episode from us. We love it when you do that. And secondly, if you find yourself intrigued by some of these answers I'm about to give as to why men do the things that they do. If you. It would be so helpful to us if you would just share this podcast episode with a couple of your friends. Anyone that you think would benefit or just be interested in hearing what another man says that another man might be thinking when they're doing inconceivably weird things. Maybe we're even a little bit Funny. Or I am sometimes. Maybe, Maybe not.

Are you asking for people to leave reviews saying that you're funny? Sure, you're on one today. We haven't even started the episode.

Really. We haven't. We haven't. And then finally, we would love you forever if you do that.

Yeah. Thank you so much for taking those steps to support the podcast. It really does help out so much to help us reach new audiences, grow, and continue being able to bring this to you every single week. So thank you for supporting Pillow Talks. Okay, let's get into the episode. So like I mentioned a minute ago, we did part one of this episode that was episode 120. So after you listen to this one, go back and listen to that one to hear answers to questions like, why do guys sit on the toilet for hours? Why do they like to come in your face? And why do guys act like they're in labor when they have a simple head cold?

Hard hitters right there. Hard hitters.

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Sorry. He's gonna give you sorry guys and girls and everybody out there. I just can't. As as powerful as I would like to be, I can't.

So he's gonna give you his best insights and you know, maybe things that he's heard from friends, things he's been through himself, things he's heard from our community. But obviously answers may vary. All right, so Xander, first question. Why do guys mansplain? And this is also a hilariously ironic question to be asking in an Episode where you're explaining your. Your mansplaining. It's a different kind of mansplaining, explaining men.

Yeah, let me mensplain.

Mensplain.

Let me explain. Yes, this is a really good question. So on the one hand, I think that men have this proclivity for jumping in to explain things because, you know, I can speak for myself. The way that I was raised. What I saw as, like, being a good man is, like, knowing a lot about a lot of stuff and being able to explain things and describe things. And I mean, even looking back at, like, you know, my. Amongst my male friends in college, I feel. I feel like, honestly, we mansplained to each other a lot. I feel like there was a lot of, like, talking about stuff and why things are. And it was almost like, you know, you were perceived as, like, a smarter person the more you had to say about a certain topic. And even, like, going through school, it was like, you know, boys, men were praised for having a lot to add to conversations in school and, like, jumping in and explaining stuff and even, honestly, like, even being on the verge of, like, interrupting, like, if you had something good to say and you kind of, like, jumped in and made a point in, like, classes that had discussion, like, that was. That was praised. And. And, you know, so I think that, you know, there's sort of this, like, implicit, like, sexist things that really creep into our upbringing where it's like, yeah, like, men interrupting and having something good to say is not really a problem. Whereas, you know, I imagine you didn't have that same experience.

No, no, definitely not. Women are, I think, given the exact opp. Type of feedback. So I think the central question with mansplaining is do you think guys, like the vibe of. It often feels rude and condescending. But it sounds to me like you're saying that that's not necessarily the intention. Maybe not every time.

I think that for most men, the intention is not to be rude or demeaning or like, oh, you don't know anything. Let me tell you, like, what's really going on. Let me really explain how this works. We'll get to, you know, maybe what it is in, you know, a minority of circumstances in a minute. But I think that most guys, we're not aware that we're doing it. I know, for example, we were out at dinner the other night, and you. You pointed out to me that I said something kind of mansplaining, Mansplain to the waiter, to our waitress, and that was that. That wasn't super cool. And I felt really bad about it afterward. Yeah. So, I mean, I just wasn't aware. I thought that I was adding value. And I think it gets back to the way that we have been conditioned, the way we have had so many lived experiences of being praised for jumping in and ah, I have the answer. Or I can add more context. I know a little more about this. It's like, you know, I thought I was doing us a favor. As messed up as it sounds like I thought I was doing a favor explaining something. And so this stuff is in really deep. So I'm curious if in, you know, 10 or 20 years, this is far less common amongst men now that people are growing up with, you know, this term mansplaining, which is a fairly new term, if that is more, you know, commonly in the lexicon, like if men are going to grow up doing that. I'm, I'm really curious of it.

You mean?

Yeah, I think that there will be a lot less of this. But you know, for now, a man that grew up and went through, you know, kind of those formative years before this was a concept that we talked about. I think it's just in there really deep. So it's like most guys think that they are jumping in and being helpful. And I know that for me it's like just that quickly kind of like calling it out in a non judgmental way is really helpful. It helps me become more aware of it and it just takes a number of repetitions for me to get better at it. I, I do think that there are some dicks out there that, that do explain things in a, in a demeaning way or you know, sort of like this dynamic of my partner doesn't understand like how the world works and I'm going to come in here and explain and like. But I think that that is much, much rare. I think that most men are, have really positive intentions and you know, we're trying to unlearn a behavior.

All right, let's go in a completely different direction. Xander. Why do men obsess over the volume of their cum? And I will ask this as a woman who not once has ever been turned on or turned off or even really noticed the volume of cum. Like, I just don't think it's something that women care about or notice at all. So why are men so obsessed with it?

This is a good question. I mean, I think first I gotta say I don't think that all guys truly obsess over this. I think maybe it's like a Vocal minority of men. Honestly, I've never. I don't know, I don't think I've ever heard any of my friends talk.

I mean, that's a weird thing to talk to your guy friends about. Like, how much volume did you come?

I got my c. Volume up.

I think a lot of men are into the volume of their cum.

Yeah, I mean, let's just get really rational about it. I guess it is. There's two really like quantifiable or visual things when it comes to men and sex. Size of your penis and the amount of cum that comes out. Right.

Like two things that women do not care about nearly as much as men care about.

Yeah. So I mean, yes, men absolutely obsess over the size of their penis.

But what. Okay, so what feels exciting? Like, why does more feel exciting? If anything, I would actually say that most women would prefer less cum. Especially if you're not using any sort of like barrier method protection. Because it gets into us and then makes a mess and, you know, dripping out days later.

Absolutely. Well, okay. Okay. A couple things. I think first of all, we got to acknowledge porn mensi. A lot of this happening in porn. And unfortunately men learn a lot of like, things that they think that they should be doing or aspire to. A lot of things that they see, like, over portrayed over and over and over, you know, now the reality is like the way that most men are orgasming or cumming in, you know, in real life, sex doesn't really match up with what you see in porn. Like, you can't usually see the volume of your cum most of the time.

Yeah, exactly.

That's what I'm saying.

So why, why be so obsessed with it if you're not even seeing how much is coming out?

That's you. You got me there. You got me there. All right. And I think the second part of it is that, you know, it is associated probably with male virility, how fertile you are. I mean, I think the reality is the percentage of your ejaculate that the sperm makes up is. Is fairly low. So the volume of your come is not really actually indicative of how much sperm you have and definitely not how. How like successful that sperm is going to be. But I still, I think that there's just like a lot of value placed on like, oh, yeah, like, oh, I must have really strong swimmers. I mean, we hear that, like joked about in movies and stuff, right? Like guys with strong swimmers and, you know, and then it's like guys are the butt of jokes if they like are struggling to get their partner pregnant. Right. So. So I think that there's this connection there, too, that. Okay, yeah, well, if I allow to come, I must be, like, super fertile.

All right, we're going to have to just let that one go, because that is a mystery to me still. Xander, why do men struggle to be vulnerable? So, obviously, this could make an entire podcast episode. Just this one question, but can you give us just, like, a quick answer about why is this so difficult for men?

Yeah, I mean, this is like, really the. The heart of the issue of the male experience. I think that men. We just don't have enough examples of what male vulnerability looks like. So on the one hand, we don't see it. We don't see a lot of it growing up. We don't typically have a lot of great examples of it in our own fathers, and we don't see it portrayed on tv, in the movies, in books. Like, all the examples of good men that are held up are often that, like, the strong, silent type, right? The guy that has it all together, the guy that has his emotions under control, or in fact, has no emotions, even though that's not possible, figures. Has the answers to all of his own problems, or at least figures out the answers and just kind of pushes through. And there's no room for vulnerability in that kind of male archetype there. Right. Like, you know, any moment in which you would be vulnerable would. You would not be strong. Right. You would be showing weakness. You would be asking for help. And so I think that we just. We just don't have a lot of examples of this. We don't see that, you know, we don't see other men, you know, being vulnerable in our friend groups, and so we don't know how to do it ourselves. Whereas on the other side, women have been vulnerable with their friends and in their families, like, almost their entire lives. Right. How comfortable are you being vulnerable with, like, any number of your friends?

Really comfortable.

Yeah. And, you know, I think that for men, if you had a really tough issue and you needed to talk about it today and your partner wasn't available, who would you call? I think that most men would, you know, maybe not have 5 to 10 people on speed dial that. That they would be ready to call at any given moment. And I think that that's. That's challenging. It's like, we just don't know how to do it. We're so much quicker to be like, okay, yeah, this is really hard. I'm really struggling with this. But let me just hold onto this for a little while. Let me try to figure it out. Rather than asking for help, because we worry that we're going to be, like, less of a man by doing that.

We do have a different podcast episode all about men and emotions. I think it's called be a man and feel your feelings. Definitely check that out if you're interested. And also let us know if you want us to go more into the topic of vulnerability, particularly come on over to Instagram. We're at Vanessa and Xander, and let us know. Maybe you're a guy listening to this who wants help being vulnerable or a partner of a guy who wants him to be more vulnerable. So let us know if you want more vulnerability content. Okay, here's our next question. Why do men struggle to focus on more than one thing at a time?

Oh, man, I am so this person.

You are horrible at it. Like, you can't even. You can't, like, wash a dish and have a conversation at the same time. Like, very. It's really interesting to watch your brain work.

Yeah. So, I mean, I would say I think that my brain and I think that, you know, talking to a lot of other men, I feel like the way that our brains are more inclined to work is we are much better at immersing ourselves very deeply in one task at a time and being very, like, kind of laser focused on whatever it is we're working on, whatever it is we're thinking about. And it's easy to kind of. It's very easy for us to kind of put those, like, mental shutters down, so to speak, and just be, like, focused on one thing. For me, it's like, I feel like if I'm trying to juggle a lot of things, then it's hard for me to, like, really do one thing right or one thing successfully. Yeah. And maybe this also is a combination of that plus socialization of, like, oh, well, like, I need to, like, be good at getting things done. So I've learned quickly. Okay. Well, my way of doing that is I focus, you know, on one thing and do it really well.

It's interesting because research has shown that we're actually not very good at multitasking. I think a lot of us women pride ourselves on being excellent multitaskers. I for sure think of myself as a great multitasker. But science has shown. Shown that our brains actually are not very good at splitting themselves amongst tasks. And we're really, like, half assing each of the tasks that we're doing, rather than, as Ron Swanson would Say whole assing one thing.

Oh, so men are ahead of the curve on this May.

Men might be actually ahead of the curve on this one.

Or, you know, it could be. I know for me, like, there have been, you know, times in my, you know, in my career, in my school life where, like, I did really try to multitask on a lot of stuff, and I feel like I just kind of kept over and over realizing, huh, yeah, that that's really hard. I don't do very well in anything when I'm trying to juggle all these things. It's a lot easier if I, you know, go really heads down in something. So now, you know, obviously, I do have to multitask in real life. I really lean on getting help. And by help, I mean using the reminders function on my phone a lot. Like, I've really accepted, okay, if I'm working on something and another idea comes to mind or Vanessa asks me to do something, it's gonna be really hard for me to remember that even, like, five minutes from now, if I am deep in something and this is taking me years to figure out. But it's like, there's no shame in just pulling my phone out and being like, hey, Siri, remind me to, you know, take out the trash in an hour or remind me to check up on that appointment later or whatever it is. And that took me an embarrassingly long time to learn and to really accept. But I think that. That. I think that for men out there, like, that is the best way to get around this is like, you just have to be able to be like, yeah, you know what? It is hard to focus on more than one thing at once. And so if, you know, something comes up that is, like, competing for my attention, I need to set a reminder or I need to write a note or I need to do something to cue me to come back to that thing. So once I finish this one thing I'm doing real well, then I can move on to that next thing.

Why do men initiate when we're in the middle of something like doing the dishes? I will say we have gotten this specific piece of feedback and questions so many times. Like, a lot of women really do not like being interrupted when they're in the middle of a task for initiation. So why are men not picking up on this or another way of saying it? Why do men struggle to read the room?

Yeah, I. So you know what? I think that this is, like. This is, like, an interesting one in terms of intentions. I do not think that men have bad Intentions of like, oh, let me things up by initiating right now. Honestly.

Well, you want to get what you want. Like, you're not trying. Nobody's trying to initiate in a bad way because, you know, like, if I'm doing it in a bad way, my partner's gonna say no to it.

Yeah, that's true. I mean, I think that what probably goes on in. In men's heads, there's sort of the split second, like, oh, like, she's really attractive right now. Or, like, I'm thinking about her, I want to have sex. And it's. You're initiating almost like thinking that you're doing something really hot and sexy. Or, like, showing her how much you want her where it's like, I need you so bad right now. I see that you're in the middle of doing something, and, like, I want to do it anyway. Wouldn't it be hot if we just dropped everything and had sex right now? And. And, like. And so I feel like this is where men and women, you know, stereotypically, can really miss each other because it's like, you know, she can get so upset. Like, how come you didn't read the room? Can't you see what I'm doing right now? And he feels horrible, and at the same time is feeling like, oh, well, like, God, like, I wanted you so bad. Like, I thought that I was, you know, like, by initiating, by showing you that it's. It should be this, like, extreme validation that I'm giving you. And, you know, it feels like, you know, you feel like you're really showing up for your partner. Like, oh, my God, like, let's screw it all. Screw the dishes. Let's go fuck.

And sadly, I think a lot of women want to feel wanted. Like, we miss those early days where we felt, like, so desirable to our partner. And so it is a funny way that we wind up missing each other, because in the moment, that can feel so frustrating sometimes. Like, ugh, can't you see what I'm doing? And it even sometimes feels disrespectful, like, wow, why would you initiate when I'm clearly in the middle of doing something? Obviously, it can bring up all sorts of other issues about, like, how you guys share responsibilities and mental load and all sorts of stuff. But it is very. Yeah. Just interesting to say, see the ways that we're missing each other.

And I would venture a guess that what most men are thinking when that happens after, you know. You know, you just said the woman goes, can't you see what I'm doing in his head. He's probably also thinking, can't you see what I'm doing?

Ooh, interesting.

I think the thing, though, is that this gets back to the vulnerability is like, we don't have the words to feel comfortable expressing that or to feel confident. And how would we express that to you without hurting you or without, like, putting our foot in our mouth? Like, I know for me that that's like, you know, often I'll have a feeling of like, oh, God, Like, I. I felt like I was doing something so good and right and positive, and she's just not understanding it, but I don't know how to that.

If you want to have better initiation in your relationship, definitely check out our course, the Art of Initiation. We will put the link to that in the show notes, but we have a section of that course that is some called something like the game changing initiation questions that everyone needs to answer. It's like your ideal conditions for initiation, and this is actually one of them. Do you like being interrupted in the middle of a task because it gives you that feeling of like, I cannot wait another second. I need to have you right now. Or are you somebody who's like, no, like, let me finish my task. Approach me when I have a moment, when things feel calm. So that's such a great question for couples to discuss ahead of time. So you make sure you're on the same page. Okay. Xander. Why do men get defensive when we suggest something we want them to improve?

All right, I think there's two, like, two parts to this, and we've kind of covered them. Similar to why guys mansplain. We place so much value on being competent, on having the answers, knowing how the world works. Right? So when you suggest something that you want them to improve, it kind of is like a dagger to that identity of like, oh, I'm supposed to know what I'm doing. I'm supposed to be confident. Like, it's confronting. Okay, obvious. You know, obviously you are not perfect at this thing. You're receiving a suggestion for how to improve. You know, on the flip side of the second part is, like, that struggle to be vulnerable. So it's like, okay, so, like, my. My competence has been hurt a little bit, but I don't know how to express that emotionally. Like, you know, I think that most men struggle to even be like, oh, that's hard to hear. And here's what I can do to maybe try to do this a little better. Like, it can be so simple to acknowledge just the emotion that is coming up you know, when, you know, when your competence is being questioned or hurt or whatever it is.

This is a really interesting topic because on the one hand I totally hear what you're saying and I can see how suggestions for improvement can really cut right to the heart of a man and like, feel painful in a way that as a woman, like, I can't really fathom. And at the same time, I think this is an area where a lot of us women struggle to have compassion. We hear from a lot of women who are like, you know, it feels like there's just this fragile male ego and I'm having to do all this work to like dance around it and not be too direct and not make too many requests and not, you know, it's just like, yeah. So we struggle to bring that sensitivity that I think these types of situations really do deserve. So how do we bring up a suggestion or make a request of our partner in a way that's not going to trigger that defensiveness, but also not going to take so much freaking work and mental labor on our parts?

Well, that's the million dollar question right there.

You don't have the 10 second answer for me.

I don't have a 10 second answer to this one. But just because the def, like the defensiveness comes up, that's not a reason to shy away from giving feedback. Like, I think that, you know, when we talk about the fragile male ego, so much of the talk around that is, okay, how can I do this so that I don't hurt his ego? And the answer is not like, oh, you have to tiptoe all around. It's like, well, no, like the reality is your ego is going to be hurt. Your, you know, your competence is going to be questioned. Like, that is part of life. And I think that men, we need to, we need to learn that. We need to accept that. We need to learn how to deal with that. Yeah, like you want to try to bring a suggestion to anybody, whether it's a man or a woman, anybody in the world, like, with as much compassion as possible and in as nice of a way as possible, but we can't be so worried about the outcome.

So you're saying men need to toughen up a little bit and learn to learn to sit with that discomfort.

Yeah, I mean, toughen up is one way to say it.

That, see, that's the opposite. On the other hand, I'm like, oh, but men get so many like, toughen up messages that I like, don't actually want to say that.

Yeah, I mean, I Would say it's not. It's not tough. It's not toughen up. Because what. Because toughen up would be like, you need to just hear this feedback and do something about it without having any feelings about it. And I think that's what.

That's what we want to avoid.

Yeah, that's what we want to avoid.

You're allowed to have feelings.

Yeah, I think the thing. But I think that that's where men really struggle. So it's like, as a man, the work is, okay, I have to hear this. I have to listen. I'm feeling something. It's bringing up some feelings in me. I need to learn how to feel those feelings, express those feelings, because expressing them is how you work through them. So I need to acknowledge what's coming up for me. I need to be able to express it, because that's how I'm going to move through the feeling. And once I move through that feeling, which, you know, if you don't move through it, instead, the defensiveness comes up.

I think. Yeah, I think what I've heard you say in the past before is something like, ooh, that's, like, hard for me to hear. I need to sit with that for a little moment. But you're being very clear about, like, that's my work to do. It's not like, Vanessa, you've done something wrong by making me feel bad or, like, triggering defensiveness. So I've appreciated that. And yeah, I think that. That. That sitting with it for a little bit is really important. I'll also say on the other end of it, like, we do need to be thoughtful about the ways that we make requests. Again, I do understand that the emotional labor that can often go into this, and at the same time, it's like, this is just a common best practice whenever we're asking for something that we want. But I think giving praise rather than criticism works way better for all humans. Like, giving praise, asking for more of something you like rather than criticizing or asking for less of something that you don't like. Like, that is a really good framework for making a suggestion. And I think, like, really getting your partner's buy in by showing them the impact that it has on them. Like, when you do this, it makes me feel xyz. So your partner really gets like, oh, this is a positive thing. I'm not just being criticized. And you can even phrase it like I've done in the past. I've phrased things to you in terms of, like, I'm surprised by how big of an impact this makes on me, or like, this is something I've just learned about myself, that I love this. So it doesn't leave you with this feeling of like, dude, we've been together for 16 years. How have you not done this before? It's sort of a. Like, this is a new thing for me, and so I'm requesting a new thing from you. Okay, let's move on. Why do men keep a pile of clean clothes by the bedside versus putting them away in the closet or dresser or asked in a different way? We got a lot of versions of this. Why do men leave their dirty clothes by the hamper?

All right, the second one. Leave your dirty clothes by the hamper. That one. That one I can't understand. Like, the hamper's right there. Just put the clothes in the hamper.

Are you kidding me?

I'm not. So what I think you might be referring to is, yes, sometimes there are dirty clothes on the floor, and I guess maybe sometimes they even are by the hamper. However, it is because the dirty clothes were piled up on the floor because the hampers were in the laundry room currently.

No, the hampers were in the closet filled with clean, folded clothes that you did not put away for a week.

Yeah. Yeah. So that. That's the first part of the question. And yes, I am extremely guilty of this one. And hey, you know what? It gets back to the. Can't seem to focus on one more than one thing at a time. Here's what happens. I'm like, ah, Vanessa put the clean clothes in the hamper and brought it back into the closet for me. I need to put those clothes away. It's gonna take me a couple minutes to put the clothes away and shit. I'm in the middle of something right now. I gotta focus on the thing that I'm focused on. So you know what? I need to do a better job. I need to practice what I preach and set some reminders on my phone when I start see it and be like, oh, remind me in 10 minutes to put my clothes away. But, yeah, no, this is. This is a serious. This is a serious issue for me, guys. This is a really serious issue.

I didn't submit this question.

I swear. I'm super embarrassed about this. I'm sure a lot of other men are too. But, yeah, it's just like, I'm like, oh, God, that is like, I'm in the middle of my day. I'm like, you know, okay, I'm going to do this, and then I'm going to do that and I'm like, oh shit, the clothes are here. It's going to throw the whole schedule off. So I'm just like, okay, I'll wait, I'll do it later. And then later there's other things happening, happening. So I think this kind of gets back to the like male single mindedness where it's just like, oh yeah, well I can't possibly do the thing that I'm supposed to be doing right now if I do that. So we'll do it later.

Why do men struggle to give regular non sexual touch? So I'll give a little bit more context for this one. A lot of women in particular said, you know, every time that my guy touches me it's because he wants sex. And it's this feeling of he's touching me more for his sake than he is for my sake. And a lot of women tell us like, I want more non sexual touch. I want to be able to hug my partner or cuddle my partner without him like pushing for it to turn into sex. So why is this something that seems to be difficult for a lot of men to do?

I mean, I think that this is something that just evolves kind of naturally in a lot of male, female relationships. Like if we were to rewind the tape to the first couple of months of any new relationship, there's probably a lot more non sexual, regular, non sexual touch going on. I bet you. There's also just a lot more sex in general happening. So it's like, you know, you start, you start dating, you start having sex, you start having a lot of sex, everybody's happy, all those like love hormones are flowing, you're touching each other a lot and everything is good. And then life just kind of starts to catch up. I know that's what it was like for you and me. That was the experience that we had where all of a sudden all this stuff that just seemed like it had been happening naturally, there wasn't time, there wasn't space for it. All of a sudden it was like we had to prioritize intimacy, we had to prioritize sex. And so I think what happens is that, you know, when you start to be having less sex, then you know, you might be starting to touch each other. And then he starts to get kind of horny and want to have sex. And if you know the other, you know, if the other partner doesn't want to have sex in that moment, there immediately kind of creates this dynamic of like, oh, okay, well when we start touching either I'm going to Want sex or either it's going to lead to sex that maybe one of us doesn't want to have. And then we kind of start avoiding that touch because it feels dangerous. Like, it feels like, you know, one partner is not going to want something, the other partner is going to want something, is going to be disappointed or unhappy. And so it almost is like, okay, well then we'd better start avoiding that touch. And that's when we kind of start going down the path of the bristle reaction and all these, all these bad things that, that can happen.

And if you've never heard of the bristle reaction before, definitely go check out episode 99. That's where we break down when you, if you feel yourself bristling or recoiling when your partner touches you, that is must listen to episode.

I think, you know, the, the problem here is that I like the male experience is probably like, if you were to ask a guy like, how come you don't do this? He'd probably be like, oh, well, like I used to do that. But then like she started saying no to sex all the time or like, you know, if I touch her, I'm going to get too horny. And the, the issue, I think is that it's just like most men tend to get horny pretty fast and, and like, forget about the touching part where it's like, oh yeah, I was going to touch you because it's like nice to touch you. And then like 30 seconds later they're like, oh, sex sounds good right now. And it's like in reality, if they were able to just slow down a little while and maybe like, okay, let me just like, let's just touch for five minutes. I bet you there's a much higher likelihood that she is going to be turned on after five minutes and that sex might actually happen in a successful way.

But you're still talking about touch as a lead up to sex. And what a lot of us women are saying is we want more touch. That's completely divorced from the idea of sex.

True, you got me.

But this is interesting because I know that you are somebody who actually really enjoys touch just for the sake of touch.

I do.

So what is the, what is the struggle of just being able to be in the moment with that physical contact rather than always like pushing for something more?

Well, I mean, this is something that we've worked on a lot. When I was just describing that, I was describing more like what I think it is like for most men. For me, we both just kind of needed to retrain ourselves of, like, okay, like, let's kiss or let's touch without any expectation of sex and just. Just get to enjoy what that feels like. Because, like, I think for me, what used to come up was it would be, like, it would be one of two things. Like, oh, God, well, what's going to happen if I. What. What happens if I get horny and then I want it and she doesn't want it and I'm going to feel bad? Or what happens if, like, she gets horny and wants to have sex, but, like, it's not happening for me and then I feel emasculated? And I think it can just kind of bring up these feelings of, like, we just. It's kind of hardwired, like, oh, well, sex. Touch is supposed to lead to sex. And either what if I'm too ready? Or what if I'm not ready enough?

I wonder if some of this comes from, like, men are socialized, that they're supposed to be, like, the initiators of sex and, like, in the driver's seat pushing things along. And so there is this pressure on you of, like, you know, making sure the sex is happening. And, like, I'm supposed to be a man and do these kinds of things.

It's.

It's just, I'm very fascinated listening to you talk right now that, like, knowing that you are somebody who really enjoys touch, it feels like it's. It sounds really difficult for you to talk about just touch for the sake of touch without thinking about sex.

Yeah, I guess that's a really good point that you just brought up because yeah, it did kind of remind me of. Yeah. For my whole life, you know, for my entire, like, sexually active life. Yeah. Like, once you start touching, once you start kissing, it's like, what's. Constantly your mind is like, okay, am I. Am I seamlessly moving this process along? And I think that men are just so hardwired to that, that it's like, that even you get into a relationship, you get into a marriage where it's like, okay, it's not my job to seamlessly move things along. Like, one, we can talk about it, we can initiate verbally. Like, we don't. It doesn't have to be this, like, unspoken, like, okay, am I bringing this thing along so that no one has to say anything? Like. And also, like, we're in a marriage where we both like to initiate sex. Like, we both like sex and we both want to talk about it and we both want to initiate it. It's not my job to do that. And yet it's still just hardwired in, like that's what a man is supposed to do.

Okay, now I'm thinking this needs to be its own episode because it's really like, you and I have talked so much about the importance of non sexual touch. We've made a lot of content about how couples, especially in long term relationships, like, we need to bring more non sexual touch back into a relationship. There needs to be touch and kissing. That's just for the sake of touch and kissing. That's not like, there's no motive. We're not pushing it further. So like, I know that you know rationally that we're supposed to have more non sexual touch, but again, it's just really interesting to listen to you talk about it in this way where it, it feels very difficult to separate touch from sex. And yeah, my guess is that a lot of men struggle with that as well. So the men out there who are in relationships with women, we really want you to touch us for us, not to touch us for you or to touch us for this motive or this. Like, we've got to move things along. I think so many of us women are like, just be in the moment with me. Like, give, just stay here in this moment. Why are we always pushing to go further and further and move ahead? Like, just be here with my body.

Yeah, I mean, I guess that's a great conversation to bring up. How would, how would you suggest that maybe a woman brings this up with, with a male partner?

I mean, listen to this freaking podcast and be like, look, this is a sex therapist and her husband who have been doing this work for years and they are struggling to have a conversation about non sexual touch. I mean, this is, this conversation that we have just had, I think is a great conversation starter. But to be a little bit more practical, like one specific exercise that I love is to have each of you think about what are your, like three to five favorite ways and places to be touched? So specific parts on your body that you like to be touched. And this is non sexual touch, not for the point of moving ahead to sex. Like, what are your favorite places and how do you like to be touched in those specific places? Because we've found that most couples really don't know that in information about each other. One last little piece of this that I'll say too is like, I don't think there's anything wrong with getting turned on when you're having touch. Like, touch is stimulating, touch is exciting. Like, of course you're Gonna notice, like, this touch feels good. And maybe I'm thinking about feeling even more good. So it's like getting turned on isn't a problem, but it's the pushing for more that's a problem. So I think the work in male, female relationships, the work for men to do is to just be in the moment with your partner, with their body, and not push for anything more. And the work for us women to do is making space for him to get turned on. Like, it's okay if he's turned on. That's not a bad thing. It doesn't mean he's being disrespectful. And it doesn't. Him being turned on doesn't inherently mean he's creating more pressure on you. But, like, can we tolerate? Okay, he's turned on, but I'm still just wanting to enjoy this touch in the moment. Okay, I'm gonna force us to move on because I could talk about this one for so much longer. But, Xander, I wanna know, why are men so bad at finding things that are right in front of their faces?

This does happen to me sometimes, however.

Oh, my God.

I think this happens.

Are you gonna drag me?

This happens to you a lot. Perhaps.

Wait, okay, so just yesterday, we were going on a hike with some friends, and I was standing in our, like, little entry area where we have all of our shoes there, and I was like, xander, where are my hiking boots? Because he had gone. Gotten them out of the garage for us. Like, where are my hiking boots? And he's like, are you fucking kidding me? And I was like, no, where are they? And he's like, look down.

They were between her legs.

I was straddling them, like, my legs far apart. To, like, navigate around these hiking.

You're probably touching them.

Where are they?

But you know what?

But in general, you are way worse at this than I am.

Well, okay.

Way worse. Okay, sure.

Let's set that aside for a moment. But I think that the example you just gave is actually a really great example that we can tease apart a little bit. Because I'm gonna venture a guess that the reason you asked, so obviously, you know, you could have looked down and you could have seen that they were right there. You probably did see them because you obviously stepped there and, like, you knew that something was there physically blocking your feet from being together. And instead they had to spread out. So setting that aside, though, I'm guessing that what might have been going on in your brain was you were like, okay, I know that our hiking boots are kept in the garage. And I know that because I had said, like, 30 seconds before. I was like, I'll go get our boots out of the garage. So you knew that, like, I had the boots somewhere outside of the house and I was gonna go get them. Right. So in your mind, you were like, oh, well, Xander is responsible for where the boots are, so I'm gonna ask him where they are. And I think. I'm not trying to say that. I'm not trying to say that this is right or wrong, but I think that a lot of men, if it's like, something around the head.