EPISODE 160: These 4 Communication Mistakes Cause Breakups

So it's not a. I don't want to communicate with you. I don't care about you. I don't give a fuck.

It's.

I cannot have this conversation. I have definitely experienced that myself. Like, I've had moments of much more intense stonewalling where, like, I'm so overwhelmed by emotion or triggered by something that, like, everything in me wants to respond, but I'm so shut down, I just can't. Hello and welcome. Welcome to the Pillow Talks podcast. We're your hosts, Vanessa and Zander Marin. I'm a sex Therapist with over 20.

Years of experience, and I'm just a regular dude. We share the ups and downs in our relationship while giving you step by step techniques for improving yours.

Make sure you subscribe for your weekly double date full of totally doable sex tips, practical relationship advice, hilarious and honest stories of what really goes on behind closed bedroom doors, and so much more. It's the sex education you wish you'd had. Today we are talking about the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse. Why did you just wee in front of that in the middle of that?

Okay. I was about to ask if we could read you that. You think it's funny now?

This is, like, a really serious topic. You're like, whee.

So my plan was for you to.

Go, we have to keep that.

The four horse meant. And then I was gonna go, nay.

That's still bad. It's such a serious topic.

I know, but then I'm going with it. I was like, I thought I saw you pausing. And so then I was like, oh, I'm just gonna drop a little nay in. And then you kept going. And so I tried to cut it off, but I'd already.

That was, like, the tiniest little noise.

And I was like, oh, God, we're.

Very excited to hear that.

We'll have to redo it.

No, we're committed to it.

We're committed. Now you got the nay and everything.

So today we are talking about the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse, which are four of the worst behaviors during communication and conflict that may be ruining your relationship. So the Four Horsemen are the creation of John Gottman. He is a legendary relationship researcher. He's been doing this work for decades, and he is able to Predict with over 90% accuracy whether or not a marriage will end in divorce. That's like, one of his famous taglines. And I think he can. I think he says he can even do it in, like, the first 15 or 30 minutes of a conflict. Like, it's wild how accurate these specific Behaviors are at predicting whether or not a couple is actually going to be able to stay together. So of course, like communication is this huge topic. There are so many rules about communication and so many tips and ways to do it and not do it. But we wanted to do an episode breaking down these four specific Horsemen because they are so freaking powerful. So in today's episode, we are going to tell you what those four Horsemen are, how to know if you're doing them, and what to do to have better communication and save your frickin relationship.

But first we got to do our review of the week. Answers questions I didn't know I had. So happy I started following after stumbling across this podcast. Very thoughtful topics and Vanessa and Xander really break things down. I appreciate how direct and down to earth they are. And every episode has something super interesting. Plus it usually answers questions I didn't even know I had.

Thank you for this delightful review. We picked this one because we loved that this person stumbled across the podcast. And, and this is exactly why these reviews are so valuable. Like when you are looking for a new podcast, you're looking at those reviews. Cause you're like, I don't know these people. Is this podcast any good?

Why do they nay in front of their episodes?

If there's like a 3.5 star, 2.5 star, like, you're probably not gonna wanna waste your time listening.

Yeah. Who wants a mediocre podcast?

So we really rely on you guys to support Pillow Talks. Help us continue to grow, reach new couples. And that's why we are so appreciative of you taking 60 seconds to leave. So here's how it works. If you've never done it before, go to the main Pillow Talks page on Apple Podcasts. Scroll to the bottom and you'll see the review section there. So take just a few seconds to leave a review. This one was just a couple sentences. I'm sure it didn't take that long to write. And every week going forward, you will automatically be entered into our weekly giveaway. So if you hear your review read on an episode, you can email us@infomtherapy.com and we will give you a prize is our little way of saying thank you for taking the time. All right, let's get into the Four Horsemen. So first we want to say you have definitely done at least one of the Horsemen. You may currently be doing one of the Horsemen. So the point of this episode is not to scare the crap out of you or make you think like, I can never ever do any of These four things, because as you're going to see in the moment, they are a little complex. Right? So don't panic. This does not mean your relationship is doomed. But instead, we just want you to be aware of these four Horsemen so you can try as hard as you can to avoid them. And we want to teach you different communication tools and coping strategies to replace them.

And perhaps most importantly, to be able to have the language, to be able to call out when you are. You know, when you realize you're engaging in one of these behaviors. The ability to call out with your partner. Like, oh, shit, you know what? I just. I was just doing one of those. That's one of the Four Horsemen. Let me take a deep breath and try again. I think it's so important to be able to understand what something is so that we can call it out when we do it ourselves. And that's such a great way to be able to, like, acknowledge, okay, yeah, I'm engaging in a behavior that I don't really want to be engaging in. So it's a way of sort of taking responsibility and apologizing and seeing your partner gets to see, like, oh, yeah, they are aware of this. Like, that. That is doing the work right there is being able to call this stuff out in yourself and then take action.

Okay, the first of the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse.

What do you think of this? Should we stop?

By the way? I know, it's like a really dramatic name.

Yeah.

I feel like we should work the Apocalypse.

At the very least, we should stop saying the apocalypse. We've already said it. We don't need to keep saying the.

First of the horses. How about I say. How would I say the first of the horses? And you can do your nay after each one.

Okay.

It'll lighten the tone. Okay. The first of the horses is criticism. So criticism is getting upset with your partner for something they did. And right off the bat, here, we need to make the distinction between criticizing and complaining. Because we have to be honest. Like, we all have complaints in relationships. Like, relationships are not perfect. We all do things to let each other down, to disappoint each other. We make mistakes. Like, there are lots of complaints in relationships, right?

Yep. There's lots of complaints in life.

But the difference between complaining and criticism is that complaining is when you're focused on one specific issue. The laundry didn't get done, or it didn't get put away, or the bathroom is a mess, like, that specific kind of thing. Whereas a criticism is when you're making a more Global complaint about your partner's personality, their character, their values. So the complaining is like, about the action itself. The criticism is like this deeper cutting to the core of somebody type of thing.

Okay, so let's give an example, because I think this really comes to life when we bring it to life. With exam.

It does come to life when we bring it to life. You are correct.

Yeah.

We're not stopping. We're not cutting out any of these little outtakes here. We're just going to keep going.

Are you complaining about my language?

No, I am delighted by your language.

Great. Great. All right. We're just gonna roll through. Okay, Give me an example. Okay, so the example.

Bring it to life for us.

I'm gonna bring it to life. Just you wait. Let's say that it is our anniversary, and I forget about our anniversary. Right?

Have you ever forgotten about our anniversary?

No, I haven't.

Thank God. You'd be in big trouble. Big trouble.

Oh, is that like the threat of a complaint or a criticism?

Horseman is the threat. You're in big trouble.

Great. Okay. But. Okay, so I forgot about the anniversary, right? Now Vanessa has a couple of options with how she shares with me how she feels about that. Right. So a complaint could be. Vanessa goes, you know what? It hurt my feelings that you forgot about our anniversary this year.

And that's some really specific language right there that we will loop back around to in just a second.

Yeah, I mean, she could have. She could have done it worse and just been like, hey, you forgot about our anniversary. She instead, she takes responsibility for her feelings. Hey, it hurts my feelings that you're forgetting about this. But, you know, so that's a complaint. It's also a complaint if it's just like, hey, you forgot about our anniversary. Now she could also take it up a notch, and she could be like, you forgot about our anniversary. You never remember anything important. Or, like, do you even care about our relationship? Like, you don't care about our relationship. You're always forgetting stuff. And that. That would be criticism, because she's taking this one issue and. And she is turning it into a referendum on my character. She's telling me who I am. You're someone who doesn't remember things. You're somebody who doesn't care about our relationship.

So sometimes criticism can happen when you start kitchen sinking. So if you haven't heard that term, it's like when you start arguing about one thing and then you throw in everything but the kitchen sink.

Right? That's the thing.

Everything but the kitchen.

Absolutely. Everything but everything.

And the kitchen sink.

No, it's everything but the kitchen sink.

But the kitchen sink.

I like everything and the kitchen sink. That's.

That's a really sink on in there.

That's really taking it to the extreme.

So when you throw in everything but the kitchen sink, it's like, you know, you start off talking about the one thing, and now it's like, and you do this, and you do this, and you also do this. So it's not just like, oh, you forgot to grab the milk at the store. It's like, just like you also forgot about the kids baseball practice last week and the dentist appointment the week before that. You're, like, looping all these other things into it, too.

Yeah. Like, you're turning it into a. Into a story or a pattern. Like, you're. You're creating this pattern and then making a judgment like, oh, you did this, this, this, and this. Oh, you must just not care at all.

Yeah, you're a forgetful person. You don't care. You know, all that kind of stuff. So you're talking more about their personality rather than these individual, specific actions. So criticism is probably the mildest of the Four Horsemen. And like we said just a few minutes ago, like this. We all do these things from time to time. I don't think there's a single person who's ever been in a relationship and not criticized their partner. Like, I have absolutely criticized Xander plenty of times. He has criticized me plenty of times. So, again, this is not a. Like, if you ever do this one single time, the relationship is doomed. But it is something that we really need to keep an eye out for, because it can worsen, and it can lead to some of the other Horsemen, which tend to be worse. The other thing about criticism is it tends to be the first of the Four Horsemen to emerge. And like I was just saying, like, it emerges first, and then the other ones tend to follow out of that. It kind of creates a bit of a snowball effect that we'll get to when we talk about the other three. So let's talk about how do we stop criticism? And I think it's really important to acknowledge, like, it's very easy to go to a critical place. Like, most of us are just overwhelmed. We're stressed, we're tired, and it's really easy to get irritable and frustrated with your partner. And also, we're all human, and we all forget things often and, you know, aren't necessarily, like, at our. On our best behavior all the time. So all that to be said, all that being said, all that being said, all that being said, it's very easy to go to a critical place with each other.

Also, as humans, one of the, you know, ways that we have evolved, that is a survival mechanism, is we are really, really good at identifying patterns. So when we start to see something happening, like disparate things, our brain is wired to identify the similarities in things that happen. And so you could say in some ways, we are hardwired to maybe not to be critical per se, but to start to be critical to the first half of it, which is creating the pattern, like seeing what the narrative or the pattern or the trend is. And so once that feels like it's right in front of our face. Watch. I said feels like, because, you know, just because we are perceiving something doesn't mean that that is actually how it is.

Yeah.

You know, like, us being able to identify patterns has been really great for us surviving out in the wild. But sometimes when we are sort of in captivity, so to speak.

In captivity.

Wow. In the captivity of our houses.

Okay, so how do we stop it? So first thing is you want to make sure you are calm before approaching your partner. If your partner has just done something that has made you frustrated, upset, triggered you, it is so likely that you are going to go straight into that critical mode. So most of us really need to learn how to give ourselves a little bit of an adult timeout and, like, calm ourselves down, figure out what's coming up for ourselves. Figure out, like, okay, I want to approach my partner in the best possible way. And that might be like, a little self talk that you can give to yourself in the moment using this language of the horseman. Like, okay, my partner just did something. I don't want to go into criticism mode. Let me give myself a second to, like, breathe, to figure out how to say it and to make sure I can say it in a gentle and kind way. So I avoid that criticism. You also want to make sure that you are focusing on one specific instance at a time. So no kitchen sinking here. And I think for a lot of us, the lesson that we need to learn is how to speak up sooner and more frequently.

Yeah, because I just thought of this as you were describing that it really feels like we are so much more likely to jump to criticism when we haven't complained correctly. Yeah. Like, it's better to complain early than to criticize later. Because so many of these criticisms come from basically unresolved complaints, unvalidated complaints, like unshared Uncommunicated complaints. And so when we are. When we are just sort of like trying to be cool, when stuff is happening that isn't feeling good and we're not sharing that we're not feeling good, we're holding it in, then those things build and build and our brain goes, oh, this doesn't feel good. And I'm identifying patterns, like, I'm a detective and I'm putting all the pieces together and all that.

Your detective. All of a sudden, what is that accent?

All of a sudden, they do one more thing and I just snap. I just snap and I criticize like.

A down south, quick criticism trigger. My God.

You know what? Chauncey really perked up just then. Our dog, who absolutely speaks with a Southern accent.

Apologies to all of our listeners in the South. I know that's a terrible Southern accent. All right, continue though. You were making a really good point. Yeah. That we need to. If we're not bringing these things up. Yeah. We need to complain more so that we criticize less.

Yeah. Be a better complainer. Be a better complainer. I mean. Yeah. I would say criticism is born from unresolved complaints.

Interesting way of putting it.

It's the Xander methodology.

Yeah. I mean, I do think that there are a lot of people who have the tendency to bottle up their feelings because let's be real, like, we don't get any sort of education on how to deal with our feelings. Most of us are like, I don't know what to do with that. And we're so freaking overwhelmed and busy. It's like, I don't have the time to figure out, like, how to say this nicely. Like, I'm just. You know, it just feels easier sometimes to bottle things up. But that never, ever works. You do have to learn how to share things in a more effective way. And that brings us to our last tip about how to avoid criticism. So our tip here is to focus on your experience and your feelings instead of your partner. So this language of, like, complaint versus criticism, that is Gottman's. And I actually. I don't love the word complaint.

Yeah. Because I think that has a negative. Negative implication. Like, no one wants to be a complainer.

Yeah.

It's almost like we gotta, like, take, like, re. Own that word. Like, take ownership for it. Like. Yeah. No, screw it. Yeah. I want to be an effective complainer.

Yeah. So I think instead of complaining, maybe I'd lean more towards something like sharing. Like sharing what your experience or your feelings or your needs are with your partner. Because the vast majority I would say, like, 99%, 99.9% of the time when you're complaining to your partner, there's some sort of unspoken need behind it. So it's not that we're arguing about, you know, the laundry or the dishes themselves. There's also something behind there. If, like, maybe it's, I feel like I'm doing all the work, or I feel like you don't see the things that need to be done, or you don't care about, like, helping make life easier for me, or I feel like we don't have an equal partnership. Like, there's so many different things that could be under that. So it's each of our responsibilities when we feel frustrated or upset with our partner, to take a moment to step back and ask ourselves, like, what is it that I'm feeling right now and what is it that I'm needing right now? And I do think this is another thing that a lot of us may not be very good at. We haven't had that experience of figuring out, like, what. Yeah, what do I need? Oh, my God. Like, it's not just the laundry. It's something deeper. So that can be a really beautiful lesson for you of learning how to take that time to sink into, like, what's coming up for me here and what do I need to express to my partner?

It might even be that you don't need very much other than being able to share that something hurt or something, you know, you felt sad or you felt let down or whatever it is. Like, often it's just being able to share whatever is coming up for you. Have that feeling heard, understood, and validated by your partner, and that might be all you need to move on. I think so many of us think, like, you know, when we get emotional, we have this, oh, my God, this is. I'm too much. I'm too much. I can't. Too much for my partner. I'm too much for the world, whatever. Like, I can't share it. But that's like. But by not sharing it, that's how these things turn into bigger things. And then, you know, and then. And then we start to get critical. We start to get contemptuous. We start to, you know, have all these other behaviors.

Spoiler alert.

That are really problematic. I mean, you guys knew that one was coming, right? I think everyone can see the writing on the wall here. But. But yeah, it's like, if you are like, God, I'm, like, feeling some sort of way. I don't know what I need. That could be A sign that. Well, the first thing you do need is to be able to just share. To be able to get the. Get the words of those emotions out of your mouth. Like, get it from inside your heart and, like, out into. Into the air, into the light. Into where? Like, into the real world. Like, out of. Yeah, like out of your. Out of your head and, like, into real life.

Yeah. So going back to the example that we shared earlier of that, like, forgetting the anniversary, in that example, we wrote it as it hurt my feelings that you forgot about our anniversary. So you're sharing, like, your experience. Obviously, we could have gotten a lot more detail with this experience, you know, this specific example. But it. You know, maybe just all that you want to do in that example is you just want to share with your partner. Get, like, that hurt. It made me sad. I felt lonely. I felt disappointed. You also might have a need there where you might say to your partner something like, I want to make sure that you plan something specific for us next year, or that we work together to make sure we do something. Or we put a reminder on the calendar, like, two weeks before next year. So we make a plan. So identifying your specific need rather than just the, like, you forgot, you forgot you didn't do this type of thing. Okay, let's move on to the second horseman, which is contempt. Xander spoiled it just a moment ago. So contempt is just being outright cruel to your partner. So that could be something like calling them names, ridiculing, or making fun of them. It could also be in the delivery, like being disrespectful. Maybe you have a mocking tone. You're rolling your eyes, like, sighing really loudly, even making fun of, like, their body language. So contempt tends to follow criticism. Xander, like, looped them together for a reason. Like, if you're in a place where you're criticizing your partner a lot, maybe they're criticizing you back. Like, you're going to snowball into contempt.

Yeah, so kind of like. Yeah, that complaints. Once complaints start to become super widespread, that often turns to criticism. And once the criticism becomes widespread, it turns to contempt.

And contempt is often accompanied by a sense of moral superiority. Like you're being contemptuous towards your partner. Because it's like, I would never do that. I would never forget that.

Yeah, I know better than you.

Yeah, exactly. So one of the classic examples of contempt that we hear about from our community is from stay at home moms who feel like their partner is contemptuous about her role as a stay at home mom. The genders could be all Mixed up too. Like a stay at home parent who's feeling like the partner who works outside of the home is contemptuous about the role of being the stay at home parent. So we've heard things like, oh, you had a hard day. Yeah. Being in your comfortable home with the kids sounds so hard. You have no idea what it's like to have an actual job with actual responsibilities. Right.

I hope, I hope no one is saying that.

Oh, no, lots of people are saying.

To, this is saying that to their partner. And I hope no one is saying that to you. And if they are, I hope you. I, I'm not even sure what to say, but that, that makes me hear.

That I feel sad all the time. Yeah. So you, you hear all of this in that, right? It's like the mocking tone, the superiority, like, oh, you don't even know what it's like. And really belittling and downplaying that person's role. Like, obviously the perspective that we take is that a parent working inside the home, that's a fucking huge job with tons of responsibilities. It's not just like sitting on your ass having fun all day. Like, it's something that needs to be seen and respected as hard work. So contempt is arguably the worst out of the four horsemen. And actually Gottman found that contempt itself is the single greatest predictor of divorce. And it makes sense, right?

Like, I mean, who wants to be long term?

Like, yeah, if you've gotten to a place where you're feeling contemptuous of your partner, where you're belittling them, looking down at them, making fun of them, it's like, well, who's going to want to stay with a partner like that? And oftentimes, like partners both become contemptuous. It, you know, just gets really nasty between the two of them. So, like, of course that's not going to be the secret for a lasting relationship. Right? Like, it makes a lot of sense that this is the single greatest predictor of divorce. So let's talk a little bit about how do we fix contempt? And this is one that I think the preventative measures are most important. So criticism is going to be your signal that you canary in the cold mine. Yes, that's exactly what I was trying to think of.

I got you, girl.

Criticism is going to be that canary in the cold mine of like, hey, if you don't nip this in the bud now, if you don't learn how to communicate better now, it's going to lead to contempt.

Quick question, did you say coal mine or cold mine?

Coal mine.

Okay. I thought you might have said cold mine. I was like, I'm just curious because I could. I could see how you're like, it must be cold down there. It's a cold bird deep down in those mines.

No, I know that it's the coal mine.

All right. How do you, how do you spell mine? Is it M I, N D or.

I know. A canary in a cold mind. No, the canary in the coal min. So we want to catch it as soon as possible. I think it's also really important for couples to focus on creating a culture of appreciation and gratitude. Like, the more that we focus on the things that we love, we appreciate, we see, the more insurance we build up against contempt and criticism. So actually, a different one of Gottman's rules for relationships is what he calls, like the 5 to 1 ratio. They found that success, successful couples had a ratio of five positive comments for every one negative comment. So we want to create that culture of us speaking positively and kindly to each other. And I'll also say that if contempt is showing up very intensely in your relationship, like serious name calling aggression, you know, it's just feeling really nasty between the two of you. Or if it's a recurring part of your relationship, like, again, we all, you know, we all do the little eye roll from time to time, that kind of stuff. But if it's like frequently coming up, then definitely seek out couples therapy. Like we said, this is the worst one. It can be the hardest pattern to break. So therapy can be really beneficial in helping support the two of you. Let's move on to our third horseman, which is defensiveness. So defensiveness happens when your partner brings something to you, a complaint perhaps, or just an airing out of their feelings. And you respond by defensive by making excuses, maybe trying to flip the roles or play the victim. So, for example, one of my frequent in the past complaints of Xander is that he would forget to take the trash out. He's actually been really good about it for the last couple years. So maybe we're out of this phase of trash forgetting. But let's imagine I said to him something like, you didn't take the trash out again.

So a defensive response would be if I was like, well, the trash trucks had already come, so it was too late to take it out anyway. Or it could even be like, so what? I forgot. It's not like you're perfect, like, you forgot to get the groceries last week.

So you can see, like, defensiveness and contempt can actually occur often in the same time in Examples like that. Like, you know, oh, you're a super forgetful person.

No, you are.

Yeah. And. And you could get, you know, kind of nasty about it as well. So defensiveness leaves your partner feeling like their concerns don't matter to you. Like, they can't be heard or seen because you're always flipping it around on them. Like, you're never acknowledge it.

Yeah, yeah. You're never taking responsibility for anything.

Yeah. And it can also make them feel like they don't have a true partner in life. Now, defensiveness is another one of the milder horsemen. Oh, I just realized we forgot to do our whole little setup thing. You haven't been neighing.

Oh, neigh.

Sounds like the next one is defensiveness.

We can have art edited in.

That's okay. So we. Yeah, again, this is another one of the milder ones. We all get defensive. There is not a single person alive who has not gotten defensive at least once in their life. It is so hard not to. And I think this loops back around to what we were talking about with criticism, is that when somebody is bringing something to us, it is so hard not to want to defend yourself, especially if they're bringing it as a criticism. Like, you're a forgetful person. You're not a thoughtful person. You do this all the time. Like, of course you want to jump to your own defense and say, like, no, that's not me. That's not what I'm. Like, it was just this one time. Or it happened for this specific reason. So how do we not act defensively, not respond defensively. So let's go back to that example of, like, Xander forgetting to take out the trash. So I come to him, I say, you forgot to take it out yet again. So first thing you need to do, take a deep breath with all of these. I think, like, just taking a moment to pause, to reflect. Think about this episode. Think about what your friends Xander and Vanessa told you to do. It can be very helpful. It may also be helpful in that moment to remind yourself that we are talking about one action. This is not an indictment on your entire personality, on your values, on who you are as a person. So remind yourself, like, I am a good person. This is one mistake that I made. And it might not even be a mistake. Like, maybe, you know, obviously, the trash one is a very black and white type of thing. But it might be something like your partner saying, you hurt their feelings, and you're like, well, that wasn't what I thought I said, or, that wasn't my intention. Like, it might feel a little bit blurrier. So telling yourself, like, I'm a good person, I made one mistake here, or I'm a good person, and my partner had their own experience of this event. I had my own experience. But like I'm saying, still a good person. You may want to ask your partner to rephrase if necessary. So if they come at you with a straight up criticism, like, you're so forgetful, you never remember to do this stuff. Like, you can ask them, hey, can you rephrase that? So it's not a criticism? Because if you are hearing a criticism, you're. There's no way you're not going to get defensive. If you're hearing somebody say you are this kind of person, you always do this, like, no way in hell. You're just rolling over and saying, like, you're right, I am a horrible, forgetful, terrible person.

Yeah. I mean, because the problem with that, when someone tells you who you are, they're giving you two options. You can either say yes or no. Right. So it's either you kind of like roll over and take it, or you have to be defensive about it. Right. There's no middle ground, which is why criticism and contempt can be so problematic. They force defensiveness.

Yeah. So the next step is to try to validate your partner's perspective. This is a challenging one for sure. It can be a little bit more straightforward when you recognize, like, yes, I did make a mistake. I forgot to take out the trash. It's a lot harder to do when it's a more gray area kind of example. Let's say Xander planned to go out with his friends on Saturday night, and I was like, oh, man, that really hurts my feelings. Like, you and I haven't had very much time together, and I wish that you'd wanted to, like, have a date night with me instead. So an example like, that Xander hasn't necessarily done anything wrong. He didn't make a mistake. He didn't do something terrible. But his actions did have an impact on me. So we've talked in other podcast episodes about the difference between intent and impact. I always fuck up the. The, like, the.

I like that impact. The enunciation.

Enunciation. Jesus. That's the word I'm looking for. Intent versus impact. They've got, like, the alliteration going with the eyes, but it always makes me want to put the emphasis, you know, the intent and the impact.

Impact. I like impact.

Intent, impact. The intent and the impact. Intent, intent.

Okay.

So despite your best intentions, sometimes the things that we do hurt other people's feelings. So, again, in that example, Xander didn't do anything wrong, but it did have a negative impact on me.

Yeah. And I mean, you know, and also, like, I could even be thinking, like, huh. Like, it feels like she's putting all this responsibility on me. Like, oh, it was my responsibility to plan a date. She's disappointed I didn't plan a date, but she also didn't plan it. You know, she's just as capable of asking a couple, you know, oh, it could have been like, well, I made this plan yesterday, and, like, you could have asked me to go on a date, like, a couple days ago or something like that. And so I could absolutely get super defensive. Oh, well, I only made this yesterday. You could have done this, like, a week ago. But in saying, you know, I can just. I can kind of sit there and be like, yeah, I can. I can see how that could feel hurtful. That doesn't mean I'm a horrible person. You know, that she could have participated in planning a date night, just as I could have. You know, I. I decided to see my friends, which is also, like, my right to see my friends. And I can see it's kind of just. It's a bad situation. I didn't do anything wrong. She didn't do anything wrong. She feels hurt. She's allowed to feel hurt. Like, it's okay. It's.

So this is one of the hardest skills to learn in relationships, to validate our partner's experience when it is not the same as our own. And especially in these extra tricky situations where there was good intent in. Oh, my God, I can't say it.

Intent, intent.

Good intent. Right. But it's such an important skill to learn. So in the. That example, Xander could have said something like, I'm so sorry that hurt your feelings. I can totally understand that you wanted to spend some quality date night time with me and that it felt hurtful that I made plans with friends instead.

Yeah. And see, I think the really interesting thing about the way that you worded that, it's. I'm not taking responsibility for, like, oh, my God. Yeah, it's 100% my job to plan date night. I didn't plan a date night. God, that I'm so horrible for that. Like, I'm still leaving space for the, you know, the reality. I may very well be feeling a little defensive or starting to feel a little defensive inside of, like, oh, well, you're hurt that we didn't go on a date. Well, like, why didn't you plan a date, like, a week ago. I only made these plans yesterday. And. But the key is, like, I could act on that and I could say that, and then we kind of just are at an impasse because, like, then we're both upset at each other. Or I could say something like that. Yeah, I can totally understand how that could feel hurtful. I'm not making any promises of, like, oh, well, next time I want to hang out with my friends, I'll, like, check in to see if you would rather go on a date first. Like, I'm not saying any of those things. I'm not saying I'm a bad person. I'm not committing to acting an entirely different way. I'm just validating. Yeah, I could see how that would feel hurtful.

Let us know if you want a separate episode about validating your partner. Xander actually did a story about it, I think, last week, and people were like, oh, my God, talk more about this. How to validate your partner. So let us know. Come on over to Instagram at Xander and Vanessa and let us know if this is something you want to know more about, because we. We understand it is tricky to do, especially in those gray areas. Now, let's imagine that it's a situation where you did make a mistake or you did, you know, specifically do or not do something. In that case, you need to accept responsibility or admit fault, so you don't need to flagellate yourself. You know, in most cases, situations, like if it's the trash example, just something as simple as, like, you're right, I forgot to take out the trash. I'm really sorry. Something like that goes a very long way. And you may also want to include a plan for trying to do better next time.

You could say something like, I'm going to set a reminder to myself to make sure that I remember next week, or that I remember every other day, or, you know, whatever it is, I'm going to set a reminder for when the trash trucks come. I'm going to set a reminder so that I make sure I'm doing it at least every day. Every other day, whatever it is. Like, there's no shame in creating some reminders and accountability for yourself.

Now, if your partner did something in that instance that frustrated or upset you, our tip is to address it at a different time. It's just so easy to go into that defensive mode and to want to point out something that your partner did to take the heat off of you, but that's just going to lead to a fight. So There are, of course, lots of situations where it's like, both partners played a role in that. So even the. The example of the whole date night thing, it's like Xander was saying, like, well, you could have planned a date night, too, or you could have, like, given me a heads up about this or whatever it is. So address that separately. In some circumstances, this might be, like, you want to come back to it at a totally different conversation of, like, hey, I want to talk to you about something. Da, da, da, da. Or if it just feels like it is part of that same conversation, what you can do is just make a clear break in the conversation. Like, okay, do you feel validated? Does this feel complete? Are we okay to move on? Because I have something I want to share with you.

Yeah. What you do not want to do, because I think this is what most people do, is that, yeah, I didn't take out the trash. I'm sorry, but you also didn't remind me. Or, like, but I took it out yesterday. And then you had all those Amazon orders, and you put all this stuff in it that should have gone in the recycling. And so it's like, a lot of us go, oh, well, I apologized, and then I moved on. And it's like, the problem is when you apologize and then immediately call out something else that your partner did, whether you're intending it or not, it comes across as defensive, and it feels like you are making an apology and then you're immediately taking it back. So, like, do not put a. But after an apology. That never works. This is. I mean, I like you. You love watching reality tv. And I feel like I always, you know, I'll, like, I'll listen for, like, five minutes. And on all the. It's like always on all the reunion shows where it's like, okay, oh, yeah, I'm sorry I did that, but blah, blah, blah. And it's like, I 95 of apologies on reality TV are not real apologies. There's always a button. And it's so interesting, once you start identifying this, you're going to start hearing this everywhere. And I think that's such a good way to start to. To internalize it is like seeing. Oh, yeah. Like, they're basically just negating their apology all the time. And I also want to say, if you are circling back after the conversation has ended so you're not doing the thing Vanessa just said where it's like, okay, cool. Are we ready to move on? Like, I want to cover something different. If you've taken an hour or a day or whatever, and you want to come back to the conversation. I think the really important thing to do is to say, hey, I want to, like, I want to talk about something that I've been thinking about following the, you know, the conversation we had yesterday about, you know, about you feeling disappointed that I hadn't, you know, I went out with my friends instead of us having some time. And I just want to be really clear. I still completely understand how you're feeling. I want to make sure that you, like, you still feel validated in that. I just want to share some things that I've been thinking about following that conversation. And, you know, I'm kind of wondering, like, hey, like, should we both do a better job maybe, of planning date nights or, like, you know, you know, I. I noticed afterwards that it felt a bit like maybe you're putting some of the onus on me for being solely responsible for date night, when I wonder if that's something that we could both do. So I think the key is that you're not circling back to the conversation and trying to take away your apology. I think the first thing you want to do is acknowledge, hey, everything I said in that last conversation still stands. I still stand by all of that. And, you know, I've been thinking about it, and there's some additional things that I want to cover.

Now. Defensiveness in particular, is a really great one to call out in the moment, because I think this is the one that's going to happen the most often. So now that you have this language and you can say in the moment, like, oh, man, I just got so defensive there. Hold on, let me try that over again.

Because the reality is, is you can never fully cut defensiveness out of your relationship, even if you are totally aware of all these things. And you can. You. The goal can be, yeah, I want to. I want to not act offensive. I want to take a breath. I want to validate my partner's perspective. I want to accept responsibility. You. You can't always do that. So it's going to come up. And I say that because I will absolutely call myself out here. Of all the four horsemen, defensiveness is definitely the one that comes up for me the most. And I want to be really clear. Like, I do everything I can to try to not be defensive. And I think that very often I succeed in that. And the reality is, is that, you know, I'm not 100% with it, but the key is being able to identify it as quickly as possible. It's not like, oh, my God, I'm a horrible person because I got defensive. It's like, hey, I'm feeling that defensiveness coming up, and I know that I just responded to Vanessa in a way that was defensive, and I can identify that. So I get to call that out. Like, I have the opportunity to do better now. So I'll be like, hey, you know what? I'm so sorry that what I just said right there was super defensive. I was feeling really defensive, and I didn't like the way that sounded, and I didn't like the way that felt. Let me try again. I'm going to take a breath and try again, and then you have the opportunity to do it again. Then, of course, I would prefer to, like, never respond defensively. But the reality is, is, you know, I. I have patience with myself. I know that it's gonna happen sometimes, despite my best intentions and my best efforts. And so I just do the next best thing, the next right action, which is to acknowledge it and. And to try again.

All right, and let's wrap things up with our fourth horseman, which is stonewalling. So stonewalling is when you shut down or you stop responding. So you're emotionally withdrawing, and sometimes you might even physically withdraw, like, if you've ever had a partner just walk out in the middle of a fight. Now, Xander just confessed the horseman that he is guilty of most often. Stonewalling is the horseman that I am guilty of the most often. And I do the horsewoman. I do a little variation, a stonewalling light, which.

Or are you just getting defensive here?

I often. Like, when we are getting into a difficult conversation, I will often start, like, doing things. So that's another way of stonewalling, like acting busy or engaging in obsessive or distracting behaviors. And I struggle with this a little bit because I. Sometimes it feels like being able to do something or have movement actually contributes to me being able to process a conversation and respond better. Like, when Xander and I are walking, I'm a fucking communication pro. Like, I feel like just having that movement makes it so much easier for me to be a good communicator. And so sometimes, like, sometimes it genuinely feels very beneficial. Other times I notice, like, I'll just, like, get up and start, like, wandering around the house or, like, putting things away. And I'm like, maybe I'm, like, not fully participating in this conversation. And, you know, sometimes it sends a message to Xander of like, hey, like, are we having this conversation? Or are you, like, fucking tidying up the house?

Yeah, it's like, how important am I to you? How important is our relationship when, like, I'm like, I'm like ready to be here and really engage. And then it's like, wait, you're like, oh, you're focused on this work task? Like, what's up with that?

Yeah. So I think for me, the task that I'm doing matters. Like, sometimes, sometimes it is a beneficial way of helping my communication. Other times it is a form of stonewalling. So like Xander was saying, stonewalling sends your partner the signal that you're just not there with them and you don't care. It's something that tends to develop over time and often in response to contempt. Stonewalling has been shown to happen most often with men, but as is the case with me, like, it of course is possible with women and people of all genders. So here's the interesting thing about stonewalling. It might seem very cold, like, wow, I'm pouring my heart out to you, or I'm crying in front of you and you're like stone faced or not responding or clamming up, giving me the cold shoulder. But what is actually going on for a person who is stonewalling is that they are emotionally flooded. They are so filled with emotion that they are not capable of communication. So it's not a, I don't want to communicate with you, I don't care about you, I don't give a fuck. It's, I cannot have this conversation. I have definitely experienced that myself. Like, I've had moments of much more intense stonewalling where, like, I'm so overwhelmed by emotion or triggered by something that, like, everything in me wants to respond, but I'm so shut down, I just can't. And it can feel like this really, like a hole you get stuck in that you just can't dig yourself out of. And I'm very conscious in those moments. Like, I can hear a different voice in my head saying, like, say something. Respond to this. Don't clam up. But the feeling in the moment is just so intense that I can't overcome it. So for a lot of men who stonewall, a lot of what's behind this is that they don't feel comfortable with emotions. Like, men get taught so much BS about emotion, about, you know, don't be a pussy, don't cry like a little baby, you know? So most men just don't have the tools to be able to communicate when they're feeling some sort of emotion. But again, like, even with me, I got all the fucking tools for being able to deal with emotion. I know what to do, but sometimes, like, those feelings just come up so strongly. So there was a really interesting experiment that Gottman and his team did around stonewalling. So they had couples start fighting with each other, and then about 15 minutes into the argument.

Wait, wait, hold on. How did they have them start arguing?

No, they have a really cool. Like, they have a very cool lab that they bring couples into to observe. And they will tell couples, like, okay, like. Like, tell us about the most recent fight you had. Like, have that fight over again in front of us.

Okay.

So in this, it's very interesting, they record everything. That's how they're able to come up with all this great research because they're observing actual couples and actual conflicts.

Oh, my God. The argument lab.

I thought that maybe this is legit.

I thought it was. I thought it was kind. I was a little incredulous at, like, all right, here you are. All right, start fighting. I was wondering if they set up fights or, you know, they. They like, assign you, like. Like an impossible task or project where you have to work together to, like, elicit an argument.

No, no. So they tell you start fighting. So then 15 minutes into the argument, some sort of researcher comes into the room and they're like, guys, we're so sorry. We need to adjust the equipment. Can we put a pause on the fight while we get everything fixed? So don't. Don't talk about the fight. Don't talk about anything else. We just need you guys to sit here and read some magazines for half an hour.

Oh, my God, this feels. That feels so hard.

Yeah. So the couples, like, could not talk. They just sat there reading their little magazines for half an hour. When the researchers came back in, they're like, oh, the equipment's fixed. We're ready to get started.

Wow. Magic.

Yeah. Start your fight again. They found that all of the couples, their heart rates were significantly lower and their interactions were more positive and more productive. So during that half hour break, the participants were able to, like, physiologically soothe themselves by reading and by not having the argument with each other. So then once they were calm, once they had soothed themselves, they were able to have that conversation much more productively. So this just goes to show you, breaks are really, really beneficial in conflict.

So I think the key here, though, because one might argue, or a stonewaller, a chronic stonewaller might be like, well, obviously, that's what I'm trying to do by stonewalling. I'm trying to Create a break. So I think the key differentiation here is if you want a break, you have to ask for it explicitly. You have to communicate that, and it has to be something that you're both agreeing to explicitly for it to be effective, for it to not feel like stonewalling to the other person.

Exactly. So you can say that in the moment. Again, now that you have the language from this episode, you can tell your partner, you know what? I'm feeling flooded right now. Can we take a break and come back to this in 20 minutes? And I would include something like, this conversation is important to me, or, you are important to me, and I want to be calm to have this conversation with you.

And it also could be really helpful because, like, you know, I know this happens with us sometimes. And, you know, it is hard for me because in that moment, I'm like, oh. Like, I'm like, I feel like I'm ready to have this conversation. I want to have. It feels like we're about to make some progress. And so I think another line, if, you know, if your partner is typically, like, you know, kind of more ready and willing to go in this conversations, is even adding something like, hey, I know that this might feel hard for you. I know that you're really wanting to have this conversation right now, and I get that it can feel tough that I'm asking for a break. I think that can go a really long way, because if you don't add that, then you're just opening it up for your partner to immediately respond with, well, no, I don't want to take a break. I'm ready to go right now. And so you kind of preempt that by being like, hey, I bet that this feels tough.

Exactly.

And I'm hoping that you're open to that, because that's really what I need.

And you also need to make it clear that you're asking for a break, not just a, like, I'm done. We're not having this conversation anymore. It's like, I'm coming back now. During that time, it's very important to do something soothing for yourself. So this is not 20 minutes for you to step away and, like, seethe and go over the fight and plan out what you're gonna say to your partner. Like, you need to do something that feels soothing and relaxing. Like, taking a walk is a great example.

Or, you know, I wonder what magazines they use for the Bachman studies, because those sound like some real good magazines. I wonder if we can find out what they are.

So in general, like, Just taking breaks in conflict is a really great practice that we can all adopt.

And with that, we'll take a break from this podcast because we're done.

We are done with our four Horsemen of the Apocalypse.

Yeah. We'll leave you to just to think about this and then come back a better person aware of the four horsemen or four horsewomen. And if you find yourself exhibiting any one or many of these four horsemen behavior and you want some help improving in that area, definitely make sure you're following us. On Instagram, we talk so much about communication stuff, how to improve your communication, how to identify things that you might not be aware of, blind spots that you might be having. So if you're not already following us, follow us on Instagram. Vanessa and Xander. That's. That's Xander with an X. And yeah, we would love to have you in our Instagram community. Our stories is where we are just always talking about new stuff every day. So make sure you watch those stories. And with that, that's really it for today's episode of Pillow Talks. Thank you so much for listening. Join us again next week when we are back with you asking us anything about our experience in couples therapy. Sam.