EPISODE 169: Is This Your Shit Or Mine? Part 2

Yeah, he's convinced that you will like it one day. Now you're thinking of going to counseling. Like, it does feel like he is pressuring you.

And also earlier on, I mean, she's like, I accepted it and welcomed it. But then you're like, actually, I hate it.

Hello and welcome to the Pillow Talks podcast. We're your hosts, Vanessa and Xander Marin. I'm a sex Therapist with over 20.

Years of experience, and I'm just a regular dude. We share the ups and downs, downs in our relationship while giving you step by step techniques for improving yours.

Make sure you subscribe for your weekly double date full of totally doable sex tips, practical relationship advice, hilarious and honest stories of what really goes on behind closed bedroom doors, and so much more. It's the sex education you wish you'd had.

Babe, I am so excited about today's episode.

I am, too.

I couldn't stop thinking about it.

Why does that sound really sexy?

I'm just kidding. I mean, I have been thinking about it. I tried to make it sound sexy and see if I get a rise out of you, and I did.

That was your plan.

No, it wasn't. No, no. I just wanted to start and say I've been really looking forward to this episode. I'm really excited about it. This is going to be a really good one.

So this week's episode, as you have probably already seen since you press play on it, it's called is this your shit or mine? And we did a part one of this way back in the day. I think it was episode 57. And we had so much fun with it. But basically what we did is we asked our Instagram community tell us about an unresolvable issue that you and your partner are dealing with. You just have not been able to come to agreement on it. And you really can't help but wonder, like, is this my problem? Like, I'm the one who needs to get over it or fix it or change something? Or is this your problem? Like, you're the one who needs to change something, deal with it, get over it, whatever it is.

But first, I actually have. We have, like, I have an example for ourselves that I want to share, which is that. Oh, no. Which is that you can't see this. Vanessa's already taken care of it. I need you to, like, clean off your laptop here. I don't know.

I don't know how this happened, to be honest with you.

It's disgusting.

It is covered with a truly ungrounded.

Like just an absolute pile of black and white dog hair from our two dogs.

I don't know how it came on there.

I can't record this episode looking over at you and just seeing so much dog hair on top of your laptop.

That one's simple. That's. That's my shit to do, actually. It's the dog shit to deal with. Stop shedding, you two.

Oh, okay. Cop out, Cop out. Dog's fault. Dog ate my homework.

So we've got a brand new batch of scenarios for you today, and we have not discussed them.

We haven't. I wanted to.

There's some whoppers.

It's been hard not to talk about these.

Yeah, Xander's been thinking about it since so much. Honestly, I just read these over to get my initial impressions of, like, would this be interesting enough for us to discuss in the podcast? I didn't really spend a ton of time thinking about my personal opinion about each one. So this will be a little bit of a, like. Yeah, it'll be kind of a hot take episode. Like, what are. What are our instinctual reactions here?

Oh, yeah.

Okay, let's get into the first one. My partner is super particular with things when it comes to sexual. He wants us both to have just showered, which I totally get for oral. But sometimes I feel like it takes the spontaneity out of things. Doesn't like to do it at bedtime because he's always tired. But we have a toddler, so this is the only time that we are free. If he has eaten anything in the last two hours, he doesn't like to have sex. I get frustrated because I feel like I have to check all of these boxes to be intimate. And in previous relationships, no one was ever like that. Granted, I was younger and without kids, but even at the beginning of hours, it was way more spontaneous. Do I just need to be more understanding, or is he being too particular? And this was a really interesting one, too, because we have heard this scenario all the time, but always with the woman who is the one who's more particular. So this one I thought was so fascinating that in this circumstance, it's actually the guy who is more particular in a male female relationship.

Yeah, I mean, it can be anyone.

Okay, so, Xander. Hot take. Whose shit is this to deal with?

All right, I'm just gonna say this is like 99.9% hid shit.

That's a high percentage.

I mean, yeah, maybe 99.5. How about that? We'll leave half a half a percentage point in there.

I disagree, but I think I agree that it's the majority is his shit.

Okay, 95%. How about that?

Sure.

Okay, great. So I'm not, I feel like it's not my job to be like, you can't be particular, but I think that you have to be able to recognize if like you are a particularly particular person.

Oh boy.

I know, it's a mouthful. Like, you have to be able to recognize. Okay, I have some over the top preferences and as a result, like, I need to take on a little bit more of the burden or the responsibility to make sure that our sex life is, is healthy and happening. Because it sounds to me like he is a very particular person and he's kind of like almost like shifting the burden back to her. Of like, oh, yeah, this is totally normal. All these things, all these particularities that I have, like, these are totally normal. And it's your job to like, figure out, like when is an appropriate time to have sex versus him being like, okay, you know what? Like, I have all these, like, I have all these extra needs when it comes to sex. So I should probably take it upon myself to make sure I find ways to prioritize sex. Or I, you know, I take the lead in like, okay, yeah, like, I would love to have sex with you. So I'm going to plan for when the shower is going to be.

Yeah.

And you know, I'm, you know, let's talk in advance about, you know, the timing with the kids and when we're going to have time and you know, what support I might need in order to have more energy. Because I feel like he's using these particularities as an excuse to avoid, to avoid being intimate.

Yeah. It feels like there's no action being taken of like, yeah, I, this is what I prefer. So how do we work around this? Because something like, I prefer not to have sex at night. That's a really common thing that parents tell us. Like, the day is wild, we're exhausted, you're crawling into bed at the end of the night and it's like, this is the time that we're supposed to muster up even more energy and excitement for having sex. So like, we totally get that. But you can't just say, I don't want to have sex at night and leave it there. It has to be a conversation and a problem solving with your partner of like, okay, this is not the ideal time for me. I know our lives are really busy and full, but intimacy is important to me. You are important to me. How do we find the time? Or how do we find a different Kind of time for us to be intimate. So if he were to say, what if we set our alarms 15 minutes earlier in the morning and try to have morning sex? Or what if we arrange to get a babysitter once a week on the weekends so we can have some afternoon delight? You know, that would be a really different kind of thing. But. And we're not getting the full story, to be fair. And we do have to give. We always try to give our little disclaimer whenever we get audience submissions here that we are getting a tiny little snapshot of the full story. Like, we don't know all the details, all the history. So of course, it's easier for us to just, like, jump on things and give our opinions. But I do like to try to. You know, we both like to try to be really respectful and recognizing, like, these are two complex human beings. We don't know the full story of everything. But I do think there are two different kinds of particulars here. So there's. I don't want to go. I don't want to have sex at night because I'm tired, and I don't want to have sex after I've eaten because I. I don't know. Presumably there's some stomach discomfort. I also like a little bit of time to digest. So, like, I think these are very reasonable ones that it's just like, okay, let's see some effort around. What can we do to change things? I do think, like, two hours is excessive.

Yeah. If you're having.

You can have 30 minutes to digest, not two hours.

Yeah. Because, I mean, let's think about, like. Let's actually lay this out. Like, if. If your requirement is no sex within two hours of eating, and you eat three meals a day, like, that's basically six hours of the day plus eating time. So if you're eating for, like, I mean, be generous, like, 30 minutes, you know, there's like another hour and a half of eating, plus then two hours after that, like, you've just cut out, like, half of your half of your waking day. Yeah, right. Like, if you subtract out sleep. Yeah. That is. That's literally half the day. You're just like, oh, no, no. Fly zone.

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Yeah, I'm really curious. Is like, are these real, Are these real issues or are these excuses? Because there's something you have some internalized shame around sex, something that you're not feeling comfortable about. I think that so often these end up these excuses kind of like come out of the woodwork and then start to sort of expand a bit where like, oh yeah, no, like I feel a little uncomfortable for a little while after dinner. And then all of a sudden it's like, oh, it's an hour, it's two hours. And it's like, is there something deeper going on here?

But then to go back to the first thing, he wants us both to have just showered. That to me is a sign of internalized sexual shame and embarrassment. Like, you do not need to have showered to have sex. Sex is not a dirty act. Our bodies are not dirty.

I mean, humans have been having, let's say dirty sex, you know, well, before showers were invented, the only way you could have sex.

Yeah.

Was not having showered. And we've done just fine as a species.

Yeah. So that's like, that is something that I would not. And it sounds like she's kind of going along with it. She's like, I totally get it. For oral, like, even for oral. Yes. We do need to talk about like basic hygiene. Like we want to keep ourselves, you know, we want to make sure that we're having basic hygiene, but we don't need to be like vigorously showering ourselves. And we definitely don't need to be soaping up our vulvas before oral. Like even something very simple and easy, like a little organic unscented baby wipe, a little swipe with that, or even just taking a washcloth, putting some water on it and wiping yourself down. That's totally fine. But you don't need to do that. So it makes me a little bit bummed that she's like, oh, yeah, I totally get that. But yeah, for, you know, for both of them. I just want them to know, like, this should not be a prerequisite to sex.

Yeah, prerequisite.

I'm imitating you.

Is that nagging talking?

Yeah, I guess like the one exception is sometimes we hear back from people who are like, well, I or my partner has like a really physical job where you are like sweaty or covered in dirt or you've got, you know, trash collector, you know, that kind of stuff. We totally get that. Again, that goes more into the basic hygiene category rather than like, oh yeah, yeah.

And I mean, yeah, we're. And you know, if you've just had a vigorous workout or you know, been on a long run or something. Like we're not saying like you have to like have sex right in those moments. Like obviously take this with a grain of salt and like, you know, if you are feeling like you are pretty stinky or something because you've just worked up a lot of a sweat. Like, sure, take a shower if you feel more comfortable doing that. But it's not like a requirement. Like you're going to get each other sick or something. Like it's just not, not really going to happen. All right, so 95 plus percent his shit on that one. Our next one. Okay. Whoa, how do I start this? Okay, this next one starts with. Oh my gosh. I want to make sure that you knew it was the person saying this, not me. Oh my God. Okay. My sister in law is like obsessed with my kids. She has their initials and permanent jewelry on her wrist. She posts about them on Facebook and gives updates as if they're her kids. She buys them things when I specifically ask her not to. I'm convinced that if I died, she would try to move into my house with my husband, who is her brother, and make my kids call her mom. I don't know how to tell her to back off. And I feel like my husband should, but he won't. She's 34 years old. She lives at home still. She irks me to no end. And my husband says he doesn't know what he would say. He says I should say something if it bothers me so much. My problem or his girl.

This is. We'll go Back to the 95. This is 95% you. I read this one and I was like, wait, am I reading this wrong? Like, your sister in law loves your children too much. Like, that is. That is not a problem. The one thing I will say, the 5%, she buys some things when I specifically ask her not to. That is not cool on the sister in law's part. That definitely warrants a conversation. She's crossing some boundaries there. So I would, you know, I would definitely talk to her about that and say, you know, hey, this is really important to me. This is why I don't want these things bought for my children. I would really appreciate you honoring my boundaries. If she continues to do it. Having some sort of conversation about, like, you know, if my boundaries are not being respected, I will start doing xyz. But other than that, Come on. Like, she loves your kids. She's a proud aunt.

Yeah. And I assume she doesn't have kids of her own.

It sounds like. Not, you know, she doesn't.

I would assume not because she has your kids names in permanent jewelry on her wrist.

I just think that's really special for kids to have somebody other than their parents in their life who really loves them and is proud of them and wants to like brag about them and show off.

Like, we hope to be uncles and aunts. Like that.

Yeah. I was just about to say, like, maybe my bias is a little bit skewed because I am. We are hopeful that we were gonna become aunt and uncle, aunt and uncle very soon. And we're super excited about that. And that's just. That's a role that I take so seriously. Like, I wanna be a great aunt. I wanna be in my nieces and nephews lives. Of course I want to honor and respect the boundaries that their parents set. I would never do something that they're, you know, One of my siblings specifically told me not to do so. I, you know, I get that. But like I wanna love those kids. So. And they're not my kids, you know, I'm not, they're gonna be my nieces and nephews, not my children. But like I want to love on those kids. And I think that this woman, I think that you are getting way too worked up about this. And like the, like she would move into my house with my, like, I don't. That just feels really over the top. Granted. Like maybe there is some weird energy that we, you know, we don't know that maybe the aunt, the sister in law or whatever is kind of being a little bit weird about it. But like I think she just is loving the kids. Let her love the kids.

Yeah. And yeah, I agree. I would say that this is her shit. And some of it is like, I think your shit to maybe come to some acceptance with. Like, like what's the problem?

You have a sister in law that she loves your kids.

Yeah, like you have a sister in law that loves your kids in a way that maybe you don't understand. But can you accept that she may have a different type of love for your kids and you're able to understand.

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Yeah, but that's not in here.

There's no comment about that. Like if your kids are happy and they're like, oh, Aunt Rhonda's the coolest. Like, yeah, she has our initials on her.

Like she buys us presents that we know you don't want us to have. Of course they love her.

But I would, that might be a nice way for this person to like kind of come to terms with it a bit. It's like look at the impact it's having on your kids.

Yeah, I mean I, there's a couple of things. So I want to say I think it is her shit. Now I think that if you really want to be like to talk to your sister in law about this, there are a couple. I think one, it's your responsibility to have that conversation with her regardless of what the conversation is. Because it kind of sounds like your husband doesn't quite agree with you that his sister is over the top with it. I think that there's a couple things that you could talk to her about if you really wanted to. I'm going to be generous here. So the, you know, the posting about them on Facebook, you know, I do know like different parents have different philosophies about like their kids and social media boundaries with social media. You know, I know some of my friends who are parents, like they are very insistent on like not posting. Well, I mean it's not about not posting pictures of their kids, but it's about not tagging their kids in photos. They because they don't want there to be like, a history of, like, oh, here's 500 photos of this person that are already on Facebook. Once they get a Facebook account and start interacting with friends, like, they want their kids to be able to, like, start from scratch with social media just like we did. Some people say, you know what? I don't want to post photos of my kids on social media at all. So I'm curious what your own philosophy with social is. If it conflicts with.

Say anything about it.

I doubt that's it. But.

But that is a valid boundary.

I mean, you know, if you want to rethink your own thought, if you want to rethink your own philosophy, rethink your thoughts on social media and make a change, that's an avenue to talk to her about, hey, I'd like to tone this down or stop doing this, because I'm, you know, I'm stopping doing this too. You know, I, you know, for whatever reason. So I think that's one area. And then the second area that Vanessa already mentioned is the buying gifts that you've told her not to do. Like, that's really important because it undermines your authority as a parent and your ability to teach your kids whatever boundaries or lessons around money and gifts that you want to be able to do. So that's a definite valid conversation to be had. But I think it's got to be a conversation that's kind of based on logic and boundaries of, hey, these are the limits of what I want to be able to do. It's not going to be very effective if you're just like, yo, stop buying presents for my kids. You are not allowed to buy presents for my kids. Like, that's probably not going to be successful.

Okay. The one thing that I do disagree with you on, though, and then we'll move on from this one. But the. You said that it's her shit to deal with, not her husband's. I do think that when in laws are at play, the person who's like, family that is should be involved. Okay, so it's like, it's. It's his sister. I do think, you know, we're all adults. We have our individual relationships. Like, I do think we should get comfortable communicating with people directly. And I do think when it's like, your family that's involved, part of, like, being a good teammate to your partner is being willing to be a part of that with them. So I think the two of them need to have a conversation first, and she needs to express to her husband, like, why she's upset about the, you know, this, the gifts, and if he, you know, get him on the same team about that, and then he potentially could have that first conversation with the sister about, like, hey, yeah, you know, if we specifically tell you not to buy xyz, please don't buy it.

Yeah, yeah, I totally agree. Once you pointed that out to me. Yeah, I think everything I said about the avenues for how you could talk to her, I think ideally you want to get on the same page with your husband about that. Okay. What is our approach to social media and our kids? What are our boundaries or rules around gifts? And then, you know, hey, so I'm noticing that your sister is a bit out of line with these things. Let's. I would like us to have a conversation together. I don't think it's fair to just be like, hey, your sister bugs me. Deal with it.

Oh, yeah, no, not at all.

So. But yeah, it's more of a, hey, let's get on the same page about this. And I think also at this point, you're going to have to acknowledge to your husband, you know, her brother, hey, you know, I know that I've been complaining a lot about her, or, you know, we've kind of had disagreements about, like, you know, what I would like for you to say to her, and you haven't done it. I want to set that stuff aside. I've been thinking about it some more, and, like, I really appreciate that she loves our kids and wants to be in their lives. There are a couple things that I am taking some issue with, and I think that it would be helpful for us, not you, us, to have a conversation with her about. And these are the specific things. Outside of that, I'm, like, really glad that she loves our kids and whatnot, because if you don't acknowledge that, your husband is going to filter it through the past experience, which is, oh, you know, my wife just, like, really hates my sister and is, like, you know, just kind of, like, unreasonably mad at her about things. So you got to acknowledge, you know, hey, I've been a little over the top in the past, but these are some real things that I want to talk about.

Okay, next up. So my husband has a foot fetish. Not the extreme type, but likes to physically touch and interact with them sexually. He confided this in me maybe nine months into dating, and I didn't judge him for it. I accepted it and welcomed him to explore it, and I didn't want him to have to suppress it any longer. I was never a big fan of it, though. I cringe whenever he wants to touch or interact with them. In all truth, I hate it. I don't enjoy it, and he wants me to so badly. I have gotten so close to just telling him to never touch them again. But then he always expresses to me how much this is a part of him and his sexuality. He's never pressured me to continue to let him engage, but I almost feel like I have to. What kind of person would I be to not allow him to express his fairly harmless fetish? But also, I cannot stand it, and it does nothing for me sexually. And he wants me to keep trying because he's convinced that it will one day. We've fought countless times and have come to no resolve. We're even thinking about seeking counseling. If I truly won't allow him to engage in what he feels he needs sexually, what am I supposed to do? Just suck it up and do it. Ooh, this one, like, it starts to take a turn for me. The more I read it, the more it was like. She says, oh, he doesn't pressure me so kind about it. But then it's like, wait, but you've thought countless times about it, and he's convinced. Telling you that. Yeah, he's convinced that you will like it one day. Now you're thinking of going to counseling. Like, it does feel like he is pressuring you.

And also earlier on, I mean, she's like, I accepted it and welcomed it. But they're like, actually, I. I hate it, and I cringe. And like, well, that doesn't quite sound like acceptance to me. So I think it sounds like both of these people have an idea in their head about how this should be or how they want to be, and then they're bumping up against the realities of, like, what they actually really or don't want.

Deep down, I think she's saying, I accept it. Like, I'm not judgmental of it. Which, to be totally clear, you and I are not judgmental of it either. Like, fetishes are very normal. They're very common. You know, there's nothing wrong with them. But I think that she's saying, like, there's a difference between, you know, my logical, rational acceptance of it and then my actual experience in the moment of, like, I just don't enjoy having my feet touched in a sexual way.

Yeah.

Okay. So, Xander, whose shit is. Is this?

Oh, this is hard. I mean, I'm gonna say it's kind of a. There's on Both sides. I'm gonna say there's on both sides. Okay.

I think it's his to deal with.

Huh. Okay. I was actually. My original thing. I was gonna say, I think this is more her shit to deal with because, look, I mean. Okay, let's start from the beginning. It sounds like he confided in her actually, though, I don't know. Nine months. I don't. I don't know. There's no, like, right number, like, oh, after X number of months, you need to disclose something. Nine months is a while. I'm not sure if they were sexually active for nine months or they were, you know, maybe together for a while and not sexually active. But, like, it's. I mean, it's a long time to be in a relationship for nine months before you drop something on your partner like that about, like, your sexual preferences. So that is a little tricky that, you know, hey, that might have been something that would have been valuable or important to disclose earlier on. I think that, you know, some people can feel hesitant to want to share something early on because they're convinced that they're going to get dumped as a result. And so thinking, oh, well, the longer I wait. The longer I wait, the better my chances are that they will. But I mean, well, really, what's going on is a kind of, you know, can be a manipulative way of. Well, once I, you know, we really get so close that they feel like they can't leave.

It's tough sometimes, people, I mean, we just. It's okay to take time. I know things to people, too.

No, no, absolutely. So it's a gray area. I would say nine months is okay. It's tricky.

But tell me why you think this is her shit, though.

Well, so, I don't know. She said he confided this nine months in. I'm curious how long it's been now. Past that. I think it's been a while because she's talking about countless fights and they're.

They're married.

Yeah, they're married. So I think what's her shit is like. I mean, it sounds like fairly. From fairly close to the beginning, she knew that she was not into this and that it was. She was cringing and she really hated it. She doesn't want to interact sexually in that way. So, you know, I think in some regards, like, that is something, you know, that that's an. A key element of their relationship that she didn't take action on earlier.

Oh, God, I. I disagree with you so hard on this one.

I mean, you have to like, I mean relationships are, are hard. You can't just like bury your head in the sand of like, oh, there's this thing that I really don't like. But. And especially like a sex thing, like a kink where a fetish where like it's not gonna go away. Like where she, like what, what was she thinking? Oh, maybe this just will turn into a non issue. Maybe this will go away.

I, I think that she was trying her fucking best to be a good partner and say like, okay, I get this, it's not my thing, but I'm not judging you for it. I want you to explore it. I'm willing to give it a shot. Like she really gave it a shot and she, she gave it too much of a shot. Like way earlier she should have had a conversation with him and told him like, I'm so sorry. You know, I really, I respect this about you. I really gave it my best. But like, it's just not something that I'm into and I don't, you know, I don't feel comfortable continuing to do it anymore.

Yeah.

But I like, I think that she, she was a great partner, like trying so hard to make it work. And I think that he needs to accept now that like, look, she gave it a fair shot. She's not into it. Not only is she not, because there's a difference. Sometimes we can be like, hey, this isn't my jam. But you know, if it brings you pleasure, that brings me pleasure, I'm fine with it. Versus somebody saying like, I'm trying this for you and I'm so uncomfortable and I really dislike it and it doesn't feel safe to me. It doesn't feel good to me. It gives, it makes me cringe. Like that's a big difference. Like she acts dislikes this and so for him to say like it. Yes, it is true that for a lot of, you know, for people who have fetishes, a lot of people who have fetishes, not necessarily all of them. For a lot of people who do like, it can feel like this is a central part of my identity and my expression and the thought of not being able to do it with my life partner is really scary and hard. That is absolutely true. But he can't use that. As I really do think that he is pressuring her and like to say, you'll, I'm convinced you will like it one day. No, she's not going to like it one day. So I think they, I. He needs to stop. He needs to accept like She's. What's happening here is she's saying no. And he. You want to take it back, don't you?

No, I don't. I actually don't. I want to point something out.

No. Okay. So I think she's saying no. And he's like, yes, yes, let's keep doing it. You will like it one day. Like, that's gross to me. That's not okay. So I do think, like, they are in a very difficult position here, and I have a lot of compassion for both of them, because this is not a resolvable problem. She should not continue doing this. He is allowed to want it, to desire it, to feel like that's a central part of his identity. And I think that he needs to make the decision now of, okay, I respect my partner's no, just the same way she has respected my fetish. And I have to decide what do I want? Do I want to be able to explore this aspect of my sexuality and continue expressing it, or do I want to be with my partner and not get to express it? And that's a horrible decision to have to make. It's really hard. And again, I have a lot of sympathy for him, but I think it's on him to make that decision. She. This is not zero to do with her, in my opinion. We have a special treat for you today. We're joined by our friend Liz Moody, host of the Liz Moody Podcast. Liz is a longtime journalist who shares real science, real stories, and realistic tools that actually level up every part of your life. Liz has already shared three amazing tips with us, so make sure to check out our last three episodes if you missed any of those. And today she's back with tip number four. So, Liz, what is lucky number four?

Lucky number four is to fight. Right? So I think we think a lot about what we want to do in our relationships. When things are going really well, how can we feel even closer to our partner? How can we level up our sex lives, things like that? But what do we do when we're actually in these moments where we have some conflict, when things are a little bit trickier? I had doctors John and Julie Gottman on the podcast. They're some of the world's leading minds in couples therapy. They've done incredible research in the subject. You guys know them. They. They blurbed your book, didn't they?

They did. That was such a huge honor. It was incredible.

Yeah, I. I remember when I saw that on your book cover, and I.

Was like, vanessa, that's wild.

They're Just they're absolutely iconic and it was such an honor to get down with them. And they shared all of the science behind how you can have fights that actually improve your relationship. So one of the facts that they shared is that you have 180 seconds to kick off a fight successfully. You want to start a fight with, here's how I feel, here's what I need versus what many of us go to, which is a criticism or a put down. They actually demonstrate in the episode what a good version of a fight looks like and what a less successful version of a fight looks like. But really paying attention to that first fight. 180 seconds is key to having a fight that's going to actually enhance your relationship.

Yeah, that is a great episode. They, what they do so well is making really practical, like relationship wisdom and tidbits. Like they call that the soft startup too. But stuff like that, it just is so simple and easy to do.

All right, so next time we got into a conflict, I'm going to start a three minute timer and say, all right, we're on the clock, babe.

I love it too, because they're about very similar things to what we're about, which is we're distilling all of this research, all of this science, and we're saying, what do I actually do with this in the moment to make my life feel the way that I want it to feel every single day. And so I love taking all of this research and turning it into action steps for people, which is what we do on every single podcast. So that's one of my favorite tips. They share a lot of other tools and techniques for fighting. The episode is called fighting can make your relationship better if you do it this way.

That is such a good episode. We will put the link to it in our show notes. You can find it really easily and check it out and make sure to come back next week to hear the fifth and final tip from Liz.

I agree with everything you said, but I think what is, what I keep coming back to is when I read this, I don't think that she has had that clear conversation with him yet. And I think that that's where if she has had that clear conversation with him. You know what, dude, I tried really long and really hard. I, you know, I've tried in all these different ways. And the, the bottom line is, no matter how we slice it, I can't get my head around enjoying this in the way that it seems like you want me to be able to enjoy it. And I'm Just not open to it. I don't think she's had that conversation with him. So it's like, that's, I don't.

But what, what would they be fighting about then?

Well, I don't know, but she's saying, oh, I've gotten so close to telling him to never touch them again. I think that they're talking around the issue.

I don't know if she's saying, we've had countless fights. Like, the fight would not be him being like, you're gonna enjoy it, and her being like, maybe, like, well, I.

Guess I don't, I guess I don't. I guess I don't know. So, I mean, I guess my, my advice is I think that into this person, I think, you know, yeah, if you, we can litigate the past and it looks like it seems like there's all kinds. If we keep looking back, there's all kinds of places where he could have, he could have, should have done something. You could have, should have done something, like, could have had these conversations earlier. You know, he could have told you about this earlier so it didn't feel like, oh, my God, like nine months in and, like, I'm super into this person and like, now I'm finding this out. There's all kinds of things that could have, could have, would have happened earlier. But the reality is right now, I think that you got to ask yourself, have you had this really clear, bottom line conversation with him about this? Of like, I've done everything I can and more and still don't get why.

That makes us her shit, though?

I, I think it's both of their.

Okay.

Like, I mean, I think that it sounds to me like when he told her this nine months into their relationship, that she was kind of like, okay, yeah, like, I, I, I'm open to this. I accept this. Like, let's give it a try. And I. What I don't know is, like, she's, she's obviously given it a lot of tries, but has she now been really clear? You know what? But I'm just, I've tried so much, and I'm not into this. And I think that if you say you're gonna give something a try, then you have to be able to communicate to the person after you're done trying that, you know what? Hey, this isn't working.

He knows that she doesn't like it because it says he is convinced that I will like it one day.

Oh, yeah, no, and that's fucked up. That's the quote. She doesn't like, oh, that's fucked up. I'm gonna say that is his shit. Like, that's unacceptable to be like, oh, you're gonna like this. You're gonna like this. You just gotta.

Creepy.

You just gotta do it more. Yeah, that is not cool. So I think both of their shit, I mean, they've worked themselves into quite a mess here. Both of them, man.

Okay, well, I want you, the listener, to come let us know because I feel like we've done a lot of advice types of things, and we are almost always on the same page. I feel like I have not disagreed with you more than I have on this one. So I want to hear what you guys think. Like, come over to Instagram, we're at Vanessa and Xander, and let us know whose shit you. Whose shit you think this foot fetish situation is.

I mean, I feel like the, the real bottom line here with, with this kind of thing where it's like, if this is central to his sexual identity, for him to feel satisfied, she is a hard pass on engaging in this activity. One or both of them has to decide, like, if this is a deal breaker and walk away.

I think he has to decide it.

And, and, yeah, and I, yes, I.

Think it's his decision. She's saying, I don't want to do it.

Okay, if, yeah, if she's. If she's really clearly said that to him, then yeah, it's 100%. It's 100% his shit. He's got to decide, you know, he's got to, you know, shit or get off the pot, so to speak.

Yeah, I just always get really sensitive in situations where I hear a woman feeling like she doesn't have agency or feeling like she doesn't have choice when it comes to sex. Like reading these little things, selling, you know, of her saying, like, I feel like I can't not do it. I feel like I just need to suck it up and do it. Like, you know, it just makes me feel really sensitive. And I want. I want everybody, people of all genders to know that we are always allowed to make our own decisions and have our own boundaries when it comes to sex. And I get that she loves him deeply. I really, I respect that she respects his fetish and doesn't judge him for it and, like, wants him to be able to express it. But I don't want her sacrificing her. Her boundaries, her sense of safety, her pleasure in order to fulfill him. And again, it's a really hard situation to be in because I respect that if this feels like it's a really central part of his expression, but I think this is completely on him at this point to decide what he wants to do here.

Well, I mean, or on her to, like, decide if, you know, I mean, she could decide today to, like, walk away from that.

Oh, yeah, yeah, she could.

But I think she could have made that decision along. I'm not saying it's her fault for not making that decision decision. I'm just, it's so tricky, the verbiage of, like, your shit or mine? I mean, your shit. When I'm saying you've had the ability to make this decision for a long.

Time, like, but her decision is not stay or go. Her decision is, do I want to participate in this or not? She wants to be with him. She loves him. This is her husband. He's the one saying, well, but this thing is so important to me. I can't imagine living my life not expressing this. So I don't think she has a decision to make here other than, like, I don't want to engage in the fetish anymore.

All right. Yeah, well, I, I just want to make sure. If she said that super clearly to him, then it's 100% his shit.

I cannot wait to hear what our Instagram is.

I just don't know. I mean, honestly, I'm just curious. When you, you know, to the listener, if you listen through, when you listen to what she wrote in, does it feel to you like she's really clearly laid it out in the kind of, like, bottom line way or not? I, I didn't read it that way. I read that it feels. I, I, I worry that they've both been tiptoeing around it because they both know what's at stake. They both know that likely they are going to have to divorce and walk away from each other because it's just not going to work. And I worry that they're both tiptoeing around it, and that's how I read it. And that, that's what I was, that's where I was responding from.

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Right, well let's leave the foot fetish and move on.

All right, our next one. I grew up with a dad who had a lot of unchecked anger that has had lasting effects on me and my sisters. I married a man who is so patient and slow to anger except as we have had kids. Stress and overwhelm shows up as anchor in his parenting. It used to be worse where I needed to intervene, never physical or emotional abuse but made me uncomfortable and now is much better. However, he still goes to anger much more than I want. I. E. This morning our 6 year old had an accident sleeping in our bed and he yelled at her. Should part of me just accept that he is forging his own relationship with our kids and I'm forging my own and let them be different. My stuff or his? Also, I want to add that we have already discussed this in general and he thinks we just have different parenting styles.

Oh this is another easy one for me. I think this is his shit to deal with.

Yeah, I. I agree. I agree.

Yeah. So I think okay, when you grow up in an environment where there is a lot of a certain emotion being expressed like anger. She grew up with a lot of anger in the house. You naturally develop a higher tolerance for anger. It's because you're just around it all the time. So something like a t, you know, child who grew up where anger was not expressed in a household and a child where anger was expressed. Like the one where there was a lot of anger, like, you're not going to get as uncomfortable in other situations, whereas somebody who didn't grow up with that is going to be like, whoa, what is going on? And I also, before I get any further, I want to say anger itself is not a bad emotion. I don't believe that there are such things as bad emotions. Like, there's information behind anger and there are a lot of other emotions underneath anger. Anger is often like it present. It's the loudest, showiest emotion, but it's tends to not actually be what the real feeling is.

Especially for men.

Yes. Oh, yeah. Oh, my God. We did a whole episode on that.

That's the red herring for me in this one.

Yeah. I mean, men are taught that anger is one of the few emotions that they're allowed to express. So most men go to anger when they're actually feeling sadness, fear, anxiety. It just is so much easier to, like, go on that angry path. So all to say, I think, you know, because this is so interesting. Listen to what she says. He is so patient and slow to anger. Except as we have had kids, stress and overwhelm show up as anger in his parenting. Like, that doesn't. He's not a patient, slow to anger person. If she's saying this is coming up all the time and she's saying to the point where I needed to intervene, it made me uncomfortable.

Yeah.

But she's leading with, he's so patient and slow to anger. Somebody who is patient and slow to anger does not scare you, does not make you uncomfortable, does not make you need to intervene. So I want her to kind of check herself and recognize, ooh, my barometer about what anger, like, levels of anger might be a little bit off because I was raised in a traumatic environment that had a lot of anger. This is an angry man, you know. Well, I don't want to put a label on him like that. This is a man who is struggling with his anger and he needs some help with this. This is not a circumstance around, like, oh, this is him forging his own relationship with his children. This is somebody who is struggling with his own emotions and needs help. He needs therapy.

Oh, yeah, absolutely. And I mean, because we know he is a man and we know that men are typically socialize to not show emotion. And so like Vanessa said, when Anger is one of the few acceptable or even, or sometimes even celebrated emotions.

Oh, yeah.

In men, what will happen is, you know, the. You're kind of like brain goes, oh, my God, I'm feeling an emotion. I don't know what it is. I don't know how to process this. Okay, we'll do anger. I know anger. And so it will come out as anger. And so what this is telling me is, okay, so you may have thought that this was a really patient and slow to anger person. Now you have kids and, you know, you're, you know, kind of like your world has been turned upside down. And what is, what this is telling you is your partner is having a lot of feelings about, about being a parent. Doesn't know what those feelings are. You don't know what those feelings are. If you're partner's only, you know, showing anger. So your partner has some work to do to try to figure out, okay, how can I identify what is actually coming up for me in these situations so that I can identify, okay, what is really sadness, what is really fear, what is really shame, and what is actually anger? Because anger is a valid and useful emotion in the right situation. The problem is, you know, it's sort of like Boy who Cried Wolf, where it's like, you know, if all you do is this one thing, then eventually when you actually need that thing, no one is going to know if it's real or not.

Yeah. I mean, ultimately it's like he's taking his anger out on the children and that's not fair. It's not safe. It's traumatizing the kids. It's gonna have lasting impacts on them and their lives. Like, he needs to learn better emotional regulation.

Yeah. And I don't think it's really like, it doesn't make sense to me to be like, oh, okay, well, mom and dad are just gonna have completely different parenting styles. Like, I think that when you are co parenting and especially married in the same household, like, you need to come to some agreement on what the parenting style is. What's the point of having a parenting style if you both have opposite parenting styles? All you're going to do is like, teach your kids, okay, well, I go to mom in this situation because it's more beneficial to me. I go to dad in that situation because it's more beneficial to. It's confusing. And then ultimately it probably ends up just driving a wedge between everybody and kind of undermining you each undermine your own individual parenting approaches. So I don't think it's really fair to be like, okay, yeah, we're just gonna do totally different things.

All right, let's move on to the next one I like for each of these. I could talk for the whole episode, but we had so many great submissions. I want to keep going. Okay. I'm in a new relationship, and my partner is uncomfortable that I still communicate with my ex, whom I was in a relationship with for 15 years. Great use of whom.

I was about to say that. Great use. Great whom usage.

I mean, it's. It's appropriate. It's grammatically correct, but you never see whom anymore. And it. And I. I love a good.

I feel like one of the only ones. I feel really hoity toity sometimes. There's some situations where it looks so ridiculously. It sticks out like a sore thumb, and I'm like, tech. I know it's grammatically correct here, but it's gonna look so ridiculous.

Here's the trick, though, is in order to decide if it's who or whom, you reread the sentence and you try to see would I answer it with him or he? So I was in a relationship. Would you say, I was in a relationship with him for 15 years or I was in a relationship with he for 15 years?

That's such a convoluted way to think. I have such a simpler way to.

Oh, really? No, you say him. So whom. You. You add because of that M. You add the M for the whom.

Yeah, well, it's so. I mean, the way I do it is you say, I still. You know, my partner's uncomfortable that I still communicate with my ex, whom I was in a relationship with for 15 years. So. So what is right before the whom. It's my axe. So key. That's. That's your ex. And then the next word, I was in the relationship. So the subject of that next clause, like I was in a relationship with. If the X and I are different, then it's whom. And if it's the same person, my trick is easier. I don't know. I think my trick.

Come over to Instagram and let us know what grammar trick you think is better. Whom. Him. He.

Who.

Also, I've been noticing this happening so much lately. My other grammar trick for when to know. If you say Xander and I versus Xander and me.

Me.

Everybody says Xander and I or like, him and I because we think, like, that's the correct usage. It's not true.

No, it's sometimes Xander and me.

So you have to do the sentences separately.

I know. I do that one the same.

That's a good one.

I do.

That one the same. I need an example sentence. This podcast is hosted by Xander and I. Would you say this podcast is hosted by I. No, that doesn't sound. This podcast is hosted by me, so it's. This podcast is hosted by Xander and me.

However, Vanessa and I host this podcast. Yes. And just like. Just like in this example, if it is, I still communicate with my ex, whom I was in a relationship with 15 years. That's whom. But if you said that I still communicate with my ex, who was in a relationship with me for 15 years, that would be correct.

Who knew that you'd be learning grammar in a sex and relationship?

Did you know that we were so good at grammar. I'm actually better. I'm better than Vanessa. You.

I have better. Like, I have just instinctually really good grammar. You can describe all the. No, I just. I just know how to do it. I just write it. But you will have, like the. The proper explanation.

Oh.

Like, oh, that's the subject and the object. And I'm like, I barely even know what's the subject and the object, but I can write it properly. But we bond a lot over our grammar. Nerd cells. Okay, let's continue.

Okay, so this person started over at the top.

Okay. Okay.

This person. We don't know their gender here. This person is in a new relationship. Their partner is uncomfortable that they still talk to their ex. We mainly talk about my dog, but my new partner is upset that I haven't cut him out of my life completely. Haven't cut the ex. I can completely understand where he's coming from, but I also don't think I should have to cut my ex out of my life just because my new partner wants me to. So it's kind of that the classic question, like, am I allowed to keep talking to my ex when I'm in a new relationship?

Hot take is 100. Your partner's. Yeah, they gotta suck this up. Assuming there's nothing more going on than what you've described here.

Yeah, I mean, if you're having an affair with them, then like. Yeah, Yeah.

I mean, like, if you're sending dog pics and dick pics, like, that's a different dog with a side of dick.

It's like a dick in the back background. Yeah, it's like a close up on that dog's face and they're just like a little dick looming in the background.

Oh, my God. Like, like Where's Waldo?

Or it's like you holding the dog. But you're.

Yeah. But you're naked. Yeah. If you're sending nudes with your dogs, you know, that's not okay. However, if you're clothed, no dicks, no other genitalia involved. Like, if you're communicating about a dog, and that's the majority for communication, you were together for 15 years. I'm guessing that you probably shared custody of those dogs when you were together. Like, I mean, if you swap out dogs for, like, kids, like, had you had kids with that ex or something, like, your partner's gonna be like, no, you can never talk to the. To the father of your children. Like, that's absurd. So, no, I think that this person needs to figure out how to deal with whatever feelings of jealousy are coming up for them. There's a reason that you're not in a relationship anymore. There's a reason why you are with this person. Like, if you had wanted to be with your ex, you would have never broken up.

Yeah.

So this person has got to find a way to get through some of those feelings. I mean, if, heaven forbid, something happened with us and we were no longer in a relationship together, like, I would. It would be very important for me and you to be in communication about our dogs, because we love them so much.

I know. And also that this person is just, like, all that we're really talking about is the dog. It's like, there's not. Of course, if there was a situation where they were worried about some emotional infidelity or emotional affair going on, like, we're, you know, reminiscing about the past or sharing pictures of our, you know, memories together.

Like, of our dicks.

Of our dicks. Yeah, that would be. That would be a problem. But if. If all you're doing is, like, sending cute dog pics and, like, hey, hope you're well. Especially with somebody that you were with for 15 years. This was not a. Like, six months together kind of thing. Like, this person was a significant part of your life. Like, you're allowed to continue having them in your life.

Yeah.

You crazy. That your partner wants.

Yeah. They didn't say anything about this. I'm going to assume the way this is written, it sounds like probably a relatively amicable breakup. No. Like, strife. Now, if it was like, we were in a relationship for 15 years and he was abusing the shit out of me all 15 years, and I finally got out of that relationship, but I still sent him dog pictures. Cause, like, you know, they were his dogs, too. Maybe your new partner has a bit of A point of like, hey, this doesn't feel very healthy that you're still in communication with this person. There is none of that. I'm not seeing any of that in here. So, yeah, of course, like, if there's something really messed up going on or some messed up reason why you guys broke up or he, you know, did something to you, sure. But if it's really just amicable, like. Yeah, yeah. I mean, just be adults here. All right. Our next one, one major one for us, is surrounded in the idea that my partner is a fitness coach, and I am the one who struggles with consistency in the gym or with health goals. Intuitively eating and listening to my body is something I strive to do, but that in some seasons, has led me to resorting to lots of rest, overeating, and leads to me not feeling good about myself. My partner walks a fine line of being supportive, but then also, I feel like I'm being coached. We always struggle with the balance of having someone to hold me accountable but not to feel like I'm being watched or criticized. Is it my job to let him hold me accountable and to get over my insecurities of feeling criticized, or is it his job to let go of being a coach and watch me be unhappy with my habits?

Oh, this is a really good one. Okay. On the surface, it seems like a simple one, but I think there actually are. There are a lot of layers here. So I do think. I think that the problem. I think that this is kind of equally your.

Oh, interesting. I disagree with you.

Okay.

So I think that the main problem here is that they haven't really had a clear discussion on roles. So it's like, do you want your partner to be your fitness coach or not? Like, if you want them to be your coach and to. Like, I. So, first of all, I would recommend not. I think that's a. Especially if it's caused issues for you in your relationship in the past. Like, that's just a really difficult role for your partner to play. Like, I get that they probably have some skill in this area because they do that for their job, but it's really different when you're coaching somebody. It's just like, I would never be Xander's therapist. That would be insane. There are rules against that, I think. I don't think there are any rules about being your partner's fitness coach. But, like, it is. It's just complicated to have to train your partner. So I feel like these two got into this situation without very clearly saying, like, hey, I need some help. In this area, I would like you to be my coach. If they are going to insist on him being the coach, then I think they need to get really clear about the type of coaching that. I don't think we know this person's gender, the type of coaching that they want to have. Like, do they like somebody to hold them accountable? Do they like some tough love? Because it sounds like, no, it sounds like the, the partners, like his way of being a fitness coach doesn't really work for this person. So I just feel like, why then why are you having him show up as that role? But then what makes this more complicated for me is the, Is it his job to watch me be unhappy with my habits like I do get? Because this person is causing themselves some issues. Like they're saying, I'm overeating, I don't feel good about myself. Like, they're not in a great place with their own wellness and well being. So I think it is really tricky to watch your partner struggle and not take good care of themselves and be unhappy in their own skin. So I get that that feels challenging. But, but I don't know, I think it's equally. What's your thought?

I mean, I think the Xander's like.

Chomping at the bit over here. Like, let me say, let me say.

Just to address what you were just saying at the end. I think the problem there is there, but at least the person writing in, I don't know about the husband or partner, the guy who's the coach, but it sounds like they are falling into the trap of thinking there are only two extreme possibilities of, oh, you just got to sit back and watch me suffer and like be miserable or I'm your coach and I'm gonna like, get you through this and it's my way or the highway. And there are a whole range of options in the middle there. Like, you know, you don't need to coach your partner, but you can absolutely be like, hey, I'm seeing that you're really struggling right now and you know, and I feel sad. I want to be able to support you or, you know, support you in whatever you need. Whether it's me helping or getting somebody else who can help or whatever, you know, what can I do? Can we think about eating healthier and I can cook more, whatever. Like, there's such a range of options. I feel like you're both falling into this trap of like, it's all, it's all or nothing. Like, it's either he's the coach 100% of the time or like, he just sits back and kind of, you know, like, wipes his hands clean of any responsibility. And. No, like, it's. I think the answer is somewhere. Somewhere in the middle. But going back, like, to me, yeah, I agree that, yeah, it's important that they have a conversation about what kind of role the person writing in wants, you know, how much they want to be coached, what type of role the partner should be playing in coaching. That's a valid conversation, but at the end of the day, I think it should be kind of like, you shouldn't come into a relationship being like, this is my profession, and the very first thing I'm going to do in our relationship is start, like, being your coach or being your doctor or being whatever your profession is. I think the general assumption should not be, like, let's go into a relationship hard in me, I don't know, having a romantic and a professional relationship with my partner. So I think that I would say this is more his shit than the person writing in, because I don't think it's. I don't think it's a great assumption to be like, okay, cool. Yeah, I'm just gonna start coaching the shit out of my partner, who doesn't necessarily seem to love it. So I would say it's more his shit. But you, yeah, you gotta have that conversation of just like, this is the. You know, these are the boundaries of what I'm okay with.

All right, let's move on to our final one of the day. My wife had multiple affairs years ago. We are still together. She likes to go out partying with my sister, who introduced her to all of the affairs. Most of the time, she ends up staying the night at men's houses. Who are my sister's quote unquote friends. I told her I'm uncomfortable with her going out and staying, staying the night at men's houses, but she says I'm being controlling, that I just want her to go to work, come home, and not have a social life. Am I wrong? Am I controlling? Is it me? Am I the problem?

You know what? I'm just gonna give you some tough love here. Yes, you are the problem. Oh, because you need to leave. Like, this is. This is not a healthy relationship for you. You're the problem. I mean, you probably should have left, you know, years ago when your wife had multiple affairs. You probably should have left when she's spending the night at random men's houses. Like, I mean, I think that this has crossed a line.

Probably a long time ago.

Yeah. I mean, I think that, yes, at the end of the day, you are totally in the right. I think it is very reasonable to ask your wife, hey, when you're going out partying with your sister, I don't feel comfortable with you spending the night at men's houses. I don't even know that. Presumably you just met. I think that that is totally fair. Now your partner has a very different perspective that. No, I, you know, that, that, you know, despite all these things that happened in the past, I'm going to continue operating in this way. Like, so if you had said, oh, well, we've never actually talked about it before, I just am scared, I would say, yeah, you got to talk about it. But it sounds like you've talked about this a lot. And your partner just has a very different viewpoint than you do around, like, what are the limits or boundaries in. In a committed relationship. And I think that those boundaries have been repeatedly broken and it's probably time to leave.

Yeah. This one is. I was like, I read this one multiple times. I was like, am I reading this incorrectly? Like, like, she's spending the night at other people's houses after being up partying after, you know, she had affairs with. In like, very similar situations with your sister's friend. Like, this was wild.

Yeah. Now, unless you're in a different relationship, you're not in a monogamous, committed situation. There are other, you know, you are operating under a different relationship configuration that you didn't write here. Maybe. I don't know, but I don't think so because you said multiple affairs. So, you know, if you were in more of a. An open thing, you wouldn't necessarily call it that. So I, I'm trying to be generous here.

Yeah. And I also want to be clear. Like, I think we both think that it's totally okay to have friends of the gender that you're attracted to. Like, this is not a, like, oh, she shouldn't even be, like, talking to other people. Like, it's fine if they genuinely are friends, but the, like, spending the night at random men's houses, like, after they've been partying, like, that's just. That's not cool. And yeah, for her, to the way that she's like, like lashing out and saying, like, you're being controlling, that you just want her to go to work, come home and not have a social. Like, it's just too much. Yeah. This poor person like, you, you deserve better. You deserve better than this.

You deserve different.

It is. It's time to walk away. Oh man. Well, we have to stop here. We have so many other ones that we didn't have time to get to.

Today, but we just do more.

We have to stop. So we would love to know if you like this episode, if you like this format. So please come on over to Instagram, we're at Vanessa and Xander and let us know what you think.

And if you did love this episode, please give us a five star review. If you're on Apple Podcasts, go to our main Pillow Talks podcast page, give us a five star review all the way down at the bottom and leave a little written review. Because those written reviews help us reach new people so much. And in fact, we're so appreciative of anyone who leaves a written review that we do a review of the week and giveaway every week where if you hear your review read out loud, send us a little DM on Instagram and we will give you a little masterclass as a prize. So this week's review of the week. So if you hear this and this is you come DM us. Road trip. I recently discovered your podcast and added a few episodes to a playlist for a 14 hour road trip.

14 hours. Oh my God.

Halfway through the first episode, my friend pressed pause and said, I already have so many nuggets I've tucked away to talk about with my partner. We listened almost exclusively to you guys for the entire drive and loved every second. Thank you so much for having a podcast that is so relatable and easy to listen to. We both can't wait to catch up and listen to every episode. Wow.

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Smash that follow button. Smash those stars. Do it all.

All right, well, that's it for today's episode of Pillow Talks. Thank you so much for listening. Join us again next week when we have another part two for you. Two part twos in a row. What do women really think about?

Insert the blank, Sam.