EPISODE 173: I’m Attracted To Someone Else, What Do I Do?

Well, mommy and daddy love each other very much, but mommy also has the hots for her co worker. How would you say that?

Well, the reason I'm asking you is because I just had, like, a flashback.

Hello, and welcome to the Pillow Talks podcast. We're your hosts, Vanessa and Xander Marin. I'm a sex therapist with over 20 years of experience.

And I'm just a regular dude. We share the ups and downs in our relationship while giving you step by step techniques for improving yours.

Make sure you subscribe for your weekly double date full of totally doable sex tips, practical relationship advice, hilarious and honest stories of what really goes on behind closed bedroom doors, and so much more. It's the sex education you wish you'd had. Have you ever been in a committed, monogamous relationship and found yourself being attracted to someone else?

Uh oh. Or is it?

Well, first of all, you're definitely not alone. We asked our community on Instagram if they had ever been attracted to someone else. And here's what we found. 21% said yes in a major way. 37% said a little crush. Another 37% said only noticing physical attractiveness. So you're just, like, appreciating that person. But it's not that, like, ooh, I want to be with them. Or like, I'm intrigued by them.

Ooh, I want a bone.

Or that too.

Or that. But that. I mean, that's maybe in a major way.

And 4%. Only 4% said no attraction ever. And you know what?

I think they're lying.

I think they're lying, too. There's no way that you never even notice that there is a physically attractive person around you. I mean, unless you are living out in the middle of nowhere where you never leave your house or you never see other human beings. Like, you are noticing that there are physically attractive people out and about in the world.

Well, I mean, the question wasn't even physical attractiveness, because there are plenty of people out there who say that physical attraction doesn't really do it for them. It's more about emotional connection or emotional attraction. But yeah, that's 4% of people saying that I have not ever felt a physical or emotional attraction to anybody else. So you're kind of saying, like, my. My brain and body don't quite work. Like, somehow I was able to be attracted enough to the person I'm with to be in a relationship with them. But now I've never felt that way again, even temporarily.

I do think maybe, you know, I. I'm. We're just joking here. I don't actually want to accuse anybody of lying, but I do think part of what might be at play here is that it feels so taboo to admit that you're attracted to someone else when you're in a relationship. Especially like a long term, committed, monogamous relationship.

Oh, yeah, in the monogamy world, absolutely. It's taboo. This is not taboo at all outside of the monogamy community.

But, yeah, I mean, I think people feel like something's wrong with them. They feel like they're not allowed to acknowledge it, you know, so we. We just want to, like, hide it. So that's why we felt like we have to do an episode about this because it's so common to be attracted to other people even though you are in a relationship. And I'll say, like, when we put these research questions up and we said we're doing an episode about this topic, we had so many of you reach out and say, like, oh, my God, I'm so glad you're doing this. I need your advice. I'm really struggling myself right now. I'm in a tricky situation. Like, please talk about this. So that is what we're talking about today. We're going to be sharing with you some really fascinating stories of people who went through these kinds of situations in the past, people currently struggling with these situations. And of course, we've got tons of advice for you on what to do if you find yourself feeling attracted. So first, let's talk about who do we get crushes on?

You know what? Vanessa, we have been talking on Instagram recently about who versus whom.

Oh, shit.

This should actually say whom do we get crushes on?

And also, that was not on Instagram. That was here on the podcast.

Oh, shit. That was here on the podcast. Yeah, we had a lot of people write in and say that my way made zero sense and Vanessa's way made a lot of sense. That's great. The problem is Vanessa's way didn't catch this one.

I did not catch this one.

I mean, you should just be able to get it. Speaking, babe.

Okay, to be fair, the behind the scenes of this episode is that we actually were supposed to be recording being interviewed by somebody else right now. They had to cancel very last minute. And so we decided, like, okay, let's just hop on recording our podcast. So I had to scramble to, like, get our notes together and make sure we were all prepared.

And, you know, grammar just went out the window.

Went out the window. Whom do we get crushes on with? Whom do we crush on? Whom do we crush within? Whom do we crush?

Now we're getting sexy.

Okay, so, Xander, don't look at the notes. By far and away. By far and away. There was one category of person that people said they get crushes on the most. Who do you think it was?

I'm gonna say the most common category would be co workers, because you're spending the most amount of time with them. In fact, you may be spending more time with your co workers or, you know, your work wife, work husband than you are your real wife or real husband or partner or even f, like, full family.

I mean, I have a crush on my coworker.

Yeah. And I don't. I don't know what you're talking about. I'm just kidding. I have a mega crush on my co worker. And you know what? I just have sex with them sometimes.

Oh, so many comments.

You know what? In the middle of the day, it's pretty shameless. It's. It's a real problem Sometimes that's more than a crush. You know, she's just, like, walking around and I'm like, man, I gotta get some of that.

Oh, thanks. Yeah.

And it's my wife. Thank you.

Thank God this is not the place for us to be divulging, like, serious HR issues.

Yeah, I mean, sometimes I also have a real close, like, emotional connection with Maggie, my other coworker. Yeah, she's my coworker.

What does she do for the business?

She provides. She provides moral support. She's a mascot.

She is on the website. Okay. Yeah. Co workers was by far and away the most common.

Can I look at the notes again?

Sure.

Okay.

The second most common one was people at the gym. Oh, people at the gym be flirting with each other. I mean, it makes sense. You're, like, getting hot and sweaty. You're making noises. You're getting all pumped up.

You got your best.

Physically, you're wearing, like, your little tiny gym outfit, and it's a sexy place. A lot of people said, like, they're personal trainers, too.

Oh, yeah.

Do you have a crush on our personal trainer?

No, I don't. Sorry, Shane.

We also had a fair number of My best friend's husband. Oh. A lot of, like, friendship group dynamics. Like, my husband's friend or, like, you know, a good friend of mine. A lot of friendship stuff.

I have a question about this one. So I can totally understand the, like, best friend, husband, best friend's husband thing. What I wonder is, and obviously there's no way for us to cut the data this way, but What I wonder is, is this influenced by the type of detail that your best friend shares with you about their husband or partner? Like, are you more likely to be attracted to them if you're kind of getting like the rosy, like, like, you know, the, the rose colored glasses version of their husband? Or is it even like, you know, if your best friend is kind of like, you know, oh, I'm really struggling with my husband. We got in this fight about this or that. Like, you know, is it, is it one way or the other? I'm kind of curious because I think, you know, some best friends are really honest with each other about their struggles in their relationship. And some people are not very honest with anybody outside of their relationship or outside of, like a therapist about what's really going on inside the relationship.

We also had a lot of people saying, like, doctor or physical therapist, like somebody who's, you know, working on you, working on you.

Minor power dynamic.

Hmm.

Yeah, I can't say I have had that experience. I do have a female doctor, but I have not had that experience.

Let's first talk about, like, our overall approach to this topic, our philosophy. So Xander and I both love to cook. It's one of our favorite ways to unwind after a long day. But let's be real. Going food shopping, getting all the ingredients, deciding what you're gonna have. Like, it can just be very time consuming, even for people who love to cook.

Yeah, we need a little help.

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Well, actually, I have a question for you. Do you. Did you have any examples growing up of how this should or should not operate? Like, between your parents? Did you ever hear your parents talking about any kind of attraction to other people or anything like that?

No, but, like, my. My parents would never talk. That would be a really weird thing to talk to your child about. Well, mommy and daddy love each other very much, but mommy also has the hots for her co worker.

Like.

Well, how would you say that?

Well, the reason I'm asking you is because I just had, like, a flashback to. I mean, actually, I think my parents actually gave me a very healthy kind of example of.

Oh, so you had a story you wanted to share, so you asked me for a story so I would ask you in return?

Well, no, I. You set me up. So. So. Well, I was not expecting. I was not expecting that. I was just going to share this with you.

Okay.

But, you know, I wanted to work it into the podcast, like, in a seamless way, you know, because I'm a pro podcaster and everything. But no, I think I didn't notice this. It just wasn't until, like, high school and probably, like, later, probably like sophomore year and beyond, I would hear my parents occasionally just talking about, like, like, how other people were attractive or like, they. But it was in a very Healthy way of just like, oh, like what? You know, oh, like, she's so cute. Or like, oh, the person who, you know, our, like, guide on this trip was. Was so cute. And they kind of like, joke. Just sort of joke about that together. So it was like a flirtatious banter between the two of them. Also, I had a. This is actually kind of weird. I'm sure I've talked about this. My mom's eight years older than my dad. She was actually his English teacher his junior year of high school. They did not get together until many, many years later. However, when I was a. Yeah, my sophomore and junior year of high school, I had a math teacher in high school that was very young and I guess attractive because after, like, the parent teacher conferences, my parents would always be like, oh, that math teacher you have is really cute. So anyway, I have memories of this. I feel like I developed a kind of healthy, like, oh, okay, this is a healthy thing that two adults, like, in a serious, committed relationship can talk about and can. Can have fun with. It's not like a threat. What I saw was my parents talked about this openly and in a kind of joking way. And it was healthy, stable there, you know, it wasn't creating jealousy or anything.

Interesting. Yeah. I don't know if I've ever heard anybody with a similar type of story to that.

Let us know, Let us know. Did you experience this growing up? I'm curious.

So, yeah, I mean, going back to, like, our general philosophy, look, I think being attracted to somebody, it's just a primal human instinct.

I mean, it's how you got into the relationship you are in now.

Yeah. And it's not like you get into a relationship and all of a sudden, like, you can't see people anymore. Like, you. They are just pixelated or you have blinders on. Like, you're still seeing people that you're, you know, as you're going about your day. And it's just this, like, instinct to notice. Like, I'm attracted to that person. I'm not attracted to that person.

Yeah, I mean, we talk about this all the time when it comes to sex and very often with people who are overcoming religious trauma or purity culture of, you know, where when you're given the message your whole life that, like, sex is bad, sex is bad, sex is bad. And then you get married and it's like, oh, no, now sex is good. It's like, boom, flip the switch, and all of a sudden it's going to be good. And we talk about how well you can't you can't be conditioned your whole life to think one way. Even if you know that the moment you get married, it's supposed to be good. When you internalize that for years and years and years and operate a certain way, you just cannot flip a switch overnight and be like, okay, cool. Now all these negative associations I have with sex now all these negative feelings I have about sex, now, they can just go away. Now you can be super excited and feel good about doing this thing. So why would the same thing be true in a relationship where it's like, yeah, you're supposed to be attracted to people. That's how you find, like, people that you want to be with and then you're attracted to someone and you get into a relationship and then, oh, yeah, now that you're in a relationship, you got to turn that attraction off. Like, it just goes off. Like, no, it doesn't. It doesn't work like that. Yeah. Otherwise you just, you wouldn't have people who are like, struggling to enjoy sex after they get married when they've been told their whole lives that they can't enjoy sex. Like, those two things go hand in hand. We just, we can't flip a switch in our thinking.

Yeah. And I want to take this one step farther and say it's also very normal to get crushes on other people too. Like, I think, I think more people are on board with the idea of, like, yeah, of course I'm going to continue noticing an attractive person. I think people struggle more with the, like, having feelings for somebody else too. But I do look at them in kind of the same way of like, you know, we're moving about our day, we're interacting with people, and I don't think you have control over your feelings. Like, we just, you know, feel connections to people. That's how we make friendships. That's how we decide. Like, oh, I want this person in my life, I want to hang out with this person. Like, we feel that connection or we don't feel that connection with another person. And I think that, again, it's just, it's a normal thing and it's something that's out of our control.

Well, at least like in the very short term, like with a crush. The whole thing of a crush is sort of like, you quickly get a bit of attraction to someone, but usually with crushes usually tend to fade.

Right? Yeah.

A crush is a short term thing. I think that it's like, as time goes by, if you're noticing, huh, I have a crush on this person. Huh? It's not going away. Huh. I'm still really attracted to them. Like, at a certain point, I think that rationally you can start to take some actions if you want to change the situation that you are in. But, yeah, in the short term, it's like, yeah, you can't control that at all. It just happens.

Yeah. I mean, the point that I'm trying to make is we don't have control over our feelings and our impulses. Like, we cannot control our feelings. What we do have control over is what we choose to do or not do with those feelings.

Yeah.

So you can get into a situation of, you know, saying, okay, yeah, I have a crush on this person. You know what? I think I need to set some boundaries and stop communicating with them. Or you might get into a situation where you're like, I have a crush on this person. And I actually think that this person, I'm, like, meant to be with them. And maybe it means kind of ripping my life apart with my current partner because I feel so strong, you know? So we, obviously, those are two different extreme ends of the spectrum. But the bottom line is we don't have control over the feelings. We do have control over our actions. But I do actually even want to go even a step further and say, I think it's very normal to have strong feelings for another person. So this is where I think the whole idea of the one that we have really bites us in the ass. So I think so many of us have this belief that there's one and only one person out there in the world.

For us, statistics be damned. Because statistically, this is a very challenging thing. Like, how would this work for every person in the world, given all the people that are in the world? But we can set that aside.

But, yeah, so if you think that there's one and only one person out there for you, you're with that person. But then you meet another person and you have feelings for them, that is going to freak you out because you're going to start thinking, like, well, maybe I'm wrong. Maybe this person is my one. Maybe this is the person I'm supposed to be with. Why would I be having these strong feelings if they weren't my person? So that's why I think it's so important for us to normalize. Like, it is normal and common to have feelings for multiple people that actually, in a funny way, takes the pressure down when we do experience those crushes. So I think the more we can normalize having feelings for other people, just the easier this will be for everyone. So, actually, I want to give an example of something that happened to me just a couple of months ago. Like, we were traveling. We were in Australia for my birthday, and we took a cooking class with, like, a group of, I don't know, like 12 or 15 of us. And there was this guy in the class that I just. I. I vibed with him. There's like, no other way of putting it. I wasn't funny enough. I wasn't super physically attracted to him, like, at all, really. But there was just, like, some sort of connection that we had energetically. And there was nothing, like, inappropriate that happened. Like, he was there with his mom, I'm there with Xander. Like, we're with a group of other people. We're just cooking together. Like, there was nothing inappropriate, no boundaries crossed. But I just felt that feeling of, like, this man and I have a connection. And if the world were completely different, if circumstances were completely different, like, I feel like there's something there that we could pursue. Like, I could see us being in a relationship and being very happy. But because I have this perspective of, like, yeah, that's normal. That's something that's just going to happen. Like, it really was not a big deal for me. I didn't freak out. I ended up sharing. Sharing it with Xander, like, later. Xander didn't freak out. And we'll talk a little bit more about our perspective on, like, talking to your partner about this stuff in a minute. But it just, like, it was just such a. Not a thing at all. Because we were both just like, yeah, okay, whatever.

Yeah. I mean, it was so not a thing for me that right before we started recording, you mentioned this to me as, like, hey, would you mind if I shared about this? And I was like, wait, what are you talking about? I don't remember. Like, I had forgotten about this entire situation. And then, you know, now. Now I remember a little bit more about who this guy was. But, yeah, I mean, it was just like, yeah, it didn't really feel threatening to me. It was just. I don't know, it's sort of like one of those, like, sliding doors type of moments where it's like, okay, yeah, well, like, yeah, maybe in some alternate reality, but we're not in that alternate reality. We're perfectly happy.

And there's some sim world where I'm in a relationship with him.

Yeah.

Or maybe we were in a relationship in a previous life.

Yeah. I mean, the problem is, if I am recall now, I think that he also was in a relationship yeah. So, you know, it would have been. It would have been tough. But.

But I. Yeah, I like this guy aside, I also think, like, I love you. I think what we have is incredibly special. I'm very, very happy and fulfilled in our life.

Oh.

And I also think that there are probably a thousand other people in the world that I could have a happy and fulfilled life with.

Oh, I'm sure it's more than a thousand.

A million. Like, there's a lot.

A lot.

Yeah. And like, that's not to take away the specialness of what we have, because what we have is. It's one of a kind, because it's you and me, and we're both one of a kind. But I think, like, people get themselves so worked up about, like, again, the one, like that one and only person. And that's why people get so unsatisfied with dating, because we have these sky high expectations and there's always that, like, grass is always greener. What if there's someone's better that comes along? Like, it paralyzes us when we think, when we have that pressure of, like, we've got to find the one and only person rather than just recognizing, like, you know, when Xander and I started dating, we got to a point in the relationship where I was like, I really love this person and I would be so happy spending my life with him. And I didn't get to a place of like, but is there someone better out there? But what if I. You know, it's just like, I. I chose you, and I'm happy with my choice, and I keep choosing you every single day. And I think just normalizing, like, I could be happy without you, too. You know, like, that just. It feels really healthy to me.

Yeah, I mean, it makes perfect sense to me. I mean, looking back at my own experience, I mean, I basically had, you know, I'm not going to count high school girlfriends because I think I was not really ever in a serious relationship in high school. I mean, I've been in basically four relationships with people that I've called my girlfriend, and I married one of them. So, you know, one in four people I ended up deciding to spend the rest of my life with. So, you know, based on my limited experience, I'm like, you know, 25% of people that I date, I get married to.

That's a weird way of putting it, but yeah, I mean, I just. I think if we could all normalize that a little bit more. Again, it doesn't take away from the specialness of what you have. Because you are two special, unique people in a relationship, but it's not the one and only person.

Well, yeah, because also the. The whole idea of the one implies that, like, you are meant for each other and that it almost takes away any agency you have of, like, oh, well, like, we don't. We shouldn't need to work on anything. We shouldn't need to try. Like, we just, you know, we, being who we are, are the right people for each other. And the reality is we. We change over life. Situations get in between us, get in, things get in the way. And it's like, we have to take daily action in order to continue choosing the other person to continue showing up for them, to continue connecting with them, all of those things. And so the idea of the one kind of removes any agency that either of you have in that and just feeling like, oh, well, it shouldn't matter what we do or don't do. We're just right for each other. And you're going to find out real quick that you're not right for each other if you're just, like, not taking any positive action to be in a good, healthy relationship.

Let's talk a little bit about flirting with other people, because this is something that came up a lot in the question boxes we posted for this episode. So my take on flirting is that I think that flirting can actually be a great way to get some, like, fun, zingy energy going when done in.

A healthy and boundaried way.

Healthy and boundaried and respectful and both.

Partners on the same page about what those boundaries are.

Yes, but, like, I think that when you flirt with somebody a little bit, like, it just gets you feeling more alive, like, you feel more confident. You're reminded, like, ooh, people are attracted to me. And you're reminded of, like, I am attracted to other people. I can have, like, fun energy with other people. Fun, flirty energy with other people. And then you bring that energy back into your relationship. So, yeah, like Xander said, of course we have to be respectful. I wouldn't do this with people that I have regular contact with. But what I'm talking about more is, like, you know, you're getting your coffee and the, like, the cashiers like, being a little bit flirty with you.

Like, you saw this happen to me a couple weeks ago and you were like, oh, that girl is looking at you.

Yeah, exactly. Like, it's super fun when it happens. Of course, everybody's different. You might not love this in your own relationship, but I do think there is a place For a little outside. Like, just. And I'm not even talking about, like, flirtation in the sense of trying to, you know, sleep with somebody, but, like, kind of more just friendly flirtation a little bit. Now, another thing that I think we really need to keep an eye out for when we feel attraction to people or get crushes on them or flirting with people. Yeah. Is grass is greener syndrome. So when you have a crush on somebody, it's often that we're not seeing the full person, like, the entirety of who that person is. Like, you're seeing all the fun, cute, hot, attractive, interesting things about that person that we see in the beginning of any relationship. Yeah.

Especially at the beginning. And also. Especially when you are not. You're necessarily not seeing all these things about sewing. You end up projecting a lot of your own shit onto that person. I think that's so often where crushes come from. It's like we see a little slice of who a person is. We know that there's more. You know, if you think about the whole pie, you know, there's like, a whole pie of this person, but you don't have enough insight to know what the rest of that is. And so your brain just makes up the difference and projects all this shit onto them of like, okay, well, like, what was the most generous interpretation of what this person might be like at home or in bed? Or, you know.

All these generous interpretation.

Yes, all these things. And so, of course, you're super attracted to them when you are projecting, you know, 90% of, like, stuff that you are super attracted to onto that person in terms of their personality or demeanor or whatever. And then very often, as you get to know someone better, that attraction starts to fade because you start to actually see, oh, okay, like, oh, yeah, this person is kind of annoying in these type of situations.

Those things that were so cute at the beginning are actually real annoying now.

Yeah. I feel like, for me, what always. What often happens happens is, like, you know, when you meet someone new that you happen to be attracted to, like, you know, for the first couple of times I see them, I'm, like, intrigued by them or maybe a little attracted. And then it's like the very first situation I get into where they do or say something annoying, it's just kind of like the whole thing crumbles. And it's like, okay, you're just like a regular old person, flawed, like everybody else. All right, we can move on.

And that's what makes crushes so dangerous, is you're comparing that fun, flirty everything's novel and exciting stage with your crush to the years or decades into it with your partner where you're already into all that. You know, I'm so annoyed by them. I'm not giving them the most generous interpretation anymore. We're fighting all the time. I've smelled their poop. Like, it's just. It's like a really tough comparison.

Yeah, the poop. The poop really does it.

Yeah. And that breaks. That really breaks all the initial intrigue and attractiveness.

I also just have to say on a side note, you're probably hearing maybe in the background if you're wearing headphones, Mackie is asleep and is woofing in her sleep. It's very. It's very cute. She's twitching and woofing. But maybe you can hear it, maybe you can't. But it's been going on for the last minute or so. I figured, you know, in case you're wondering what the hell is going on in the background, that's it.

Okay. So, yeah, I mean, going back to it like that, you know, the stage that you're in with your long term partner and your long term relationship, like that is just never gonna compare to the, like that fun, flirty, beginning honeymoon stage with somebody. So I think like, just reminding yourself of that and maybe even think back to like, how attracted were you to your partner in those beginning stages? Like, remind yourself how you thought every little thing they did was so cute, so exciting, so fun, so hot, so sexy. I mean, that can be just like a great way to kind of to bring the crush down too. Or going the other way. You could picture your crush doing some of the annoying, like, gross, weird things that you don't like your partner doing.

Picture I'm pooping.

Great way to end your crush. That's Xander's pro tip. Picture them pooping.

Or just picture yourself smelling the poop.

Oh, God.

Wow. Did I just ruin crushes for everyone?

I think you did. That's like a really visceral, visceral image.

Yeah, I've never tried that, but it sounds pretty awful. Wow. I'm kind of shook that I said that. Yeah. How do we get back on track after that? All right, forget that you saw them poop. It didn't smell at all. Crushes back. Oh, yeah. They're so hot. All right, let's keep going, babe. What else did you have to say?

Well, another thing that makes crushes feel so crushy and exciting is because it feels forbidden. Like whenever anything feels forbidden or taboo, that for most of us like, makes it feel so much sexier. So I think that's where people get themselves into trouble, especially with things like my best friend's husband or my husband's best friend. Like, there's nothing that feels more taboo than that. So it feels, like, so exciting. Like, oh, we couldn't possibly blow up our entire lives to be with each other. Like, that makes it feel really enticing and exciting. So I think, you know, normalizing that it's normal and common to have attraction to other people, that takes away a lot of the forbidden and the taboo aspect of it. And then another way to take that away is talking about it it openly. So, like, Xander and I, similar to how you just described your parents, like, we talk very openly about people that we find physically attractive. So if we're out and about, we see somebody like, oh, my God, that woman is so gorgeous. Oh, my God, she has such a great butt. Whoa, that guy is super hot. Of course, we're doing it in, like, in a respectful way. We're not, like, leering at people, not saying anything, like, loudly enough that they could hear, but, like, just between the two of us. And that does create that, like, fun, zingy energy between the two of us, like, ooh, yeah. You know, getting each other kind of, like, fired up. But because we openly admit it and talk about it, and we do this even in more, like, intense situations, like the one that I, you know, just shared in Australia, like, it just takes away that, like, forbidden appeal. It's like, okay, yeah, sure. Cool. I get it. No biggie.

I mean, yeah, I do want to say that, but that approach absolutely works if you have a history in your relationship of, you know, of, like, that working for you. I think that if you are in a relationship where you have had problems in the past with, like, one partner flirting, and it kind of, like, going in a bad direction or something. We're not saying, like, oh, regardless of your relationship history, you guys need to start, like, commenting on, like, how hot other people are to be more evolved or to, you know, to have a better relationship. I think that it's like, if you have a history of being able to do that in a respectful way where it feels like no boundaries are being crossed, then that's great. I mean, I say that because, like, I've been, despite having that good socialization for my parents from an early age, and despite being in a relationship with Vanessa now, where we are able to do this and it feels totally fine and healthy, you know, I have been in a relationship in the past where that didn't feel very healthy because, you know, it was a relationship where, you know, various boundaries did get crossed and it felt like, you know, a lot of that flirtation was more like validation seeking. And, you know, and after a lot of conversations, it didn't really feel healthy. So I think, you know, you got to kind of figure out where are you in your relationship and kind of like, assess what feels like appropriate or safe boundaries when it comes to that. We're not trying to say that, like, okay, yeah, like, you just got to start doing this, or, like, we're not trying to give you, per one of you permission to, like, start doing something if it feels like that person has been, like, doing that and kind of, like, bad faith in the past.

So let's say you have a crush that feels like a big one. It's not going away. Maybe it's even getting stronger. One thing to get curious about is whether your crush is illuminating something that you're needing, wanting, missing from your current relationship. And we're going to share some stories in a minute. Some of them had this dynamic in it, but often, like, other people feel attractive to us when we're getting something from them that we're not getting from our partner. In particular, like, one of the themes that kept popping up in these stories was people saying, like, I have, you know, this flirtation with this other person, like, and I really miss my partner flirting with me. And I think that's something that we really forget to do in long term relationships. We have this whole story around. Like, you have to win over your partner. And then once you've won them over, like, it's done, you're just like, you have them now and we stop flirting with each other, we stop pursuing each other, we stop dating each other. And so of course, if you're getting that feeling of somebody else, like, that's gonna feel so exciting and tempting. So we actually do have a podcast episode all about flirting in long term relationships. Definitely recommend checking that out. It's episode 164, why you need to flirt in your relationship and how to do it. Okay, so if that crush is still lingering, you might get to the point where you need to just stop contact. Like, I could not believe the number of stories that we got from people who are, you know, currently struggling with attraction to somebody else, where they're like, we're, you know, we're talking to each other all the time. We see each other every day. We're, you know, and obviously there's some situations like Co workers where you can't really control that. But, like, if you're texting with somebody.

Every day, continuing to put yourself in situations, torturing yourself.

Yeah, like, there's one person who wrote, I'm struggling with this big time right now. We text every single day. We've sexted, we're both married. It's like you're just torturing yourself. This is not gonna end well. Like, you just have to stop that contact. And they know that takes willpower. It's easier said than done. But, like, block their number on your phone. Tell them, like, we need to stop. I need your support in us stopping this. Like, tell your best friend and ask them to hold you accountable. Like, do whatever you need to do. But like, it. There were just so many people who are like, I'm. I'm really struggling with this right now. I'm talking to them every day and it's like, you just, you gotta stop. And I also think it's really important for us to like, play this out too. So I know it's very tempting. We get that, like, taboo, forbidden, you know, excitement of really, like, thinking, oh, what would this be like if we blew up our entire lives to, like, be together? And there's even a way that we romanticize that too. Like, we're so in love that we're willing to, like, destroy everything to be together. And I'm not saying there isn't, like, the rare example where that is true. Like, we did have people who are like, yeah, I totally fucked up my whole life, but, like, we're still together. It's been decades. Like, I know this person is my person. Like, that. You know, there are some rare examples of that, but in general, like, really trying to play out the game tape and like, what would it actually look like to end your current relationship? What are the specific steps you would have to go through and how would you make the transition into being with this new person? Like, I don't think you should go from one right into the other. Like, I think you should at least take some time to like, process, to heal, to honor the relationship that you were in and like, even play the game tape out into. What would it look like to be in a real long term, committed, boring relationship with this person where you're smelling their poop and you're hearing them poop and all the poopy related things. Right. And like, also having that knowledge hanging over your head of, like, this started with a crush that, that, you know, neither one of us could hold ourselves back from. I Feel like you'd always be worrying in the back of your head, like, well, isn't my partner, you know, aren't they? What if they find another person? What if they have another crush?

Yeah. How is it gonna feel to be kind of like having some healthy, talking about other people that you're attracted to in that new relationship, knowing that that is exactly how you each got into the relationship that you are in? Also, I think that what is so hard about transitioning that type of sort of like forbidden, flirtatious relationship into a real life one after you've blown up the current relationship that you're in is that is think about, okay, what does this new relationship actually look like on a day to day basis when the forbidden nature of things has been removed? When it's like, oh, now we're just like dating or together like normal people without this like thrill of sneaking around, without all that extra emotional charge of like, we shouldn't be doing this with each other. We're super limited in when we can see each other or how we can talk. I think that's why so many of those don't work in real life because it's like, it works in the confines of the relationship that you have where it's like, it's so fun and exciting because there's only half an hour a day where you can be in contact or like, you can only see each other once every two weeks or, you know, there's all these limitations put on you and there's all this extra excitement. But as soon as that excitement goes away, are you actually going to be very fulfilled?

And we do just have to mention, like, obviously we're couching this whole episode on like, you know, if you're in a monogamous relationship. But of course, like, like open relationships are a thing that is something that you can explore with your partner. We have other podcast episodes about that as well.

Yeah, and also just going back to what I was saying of like, once all that excitement kind of is stripped away by getting into just a normal relationship with someone, like, are you still going to be satisfied? I think this goes back to the point that you made of, like, is what you are doing revealing something that you are actually missing in your current relationship? If you find yourself doing this, I would venture a guess that there is not very much excitement happening in the relationship that you are in currently. So do you want to be kind of like emotionally cheating on your partner to get that excitement or do you want to find a way to actually get some real life excitement? Into your current relationship. Like it's, it's like a canary in the coal mine type of situation. Like you know, the canary is dying in the mine and. And you're like, oh yeah, maybe I just need to dig deeper instead of like oh no, maybe I need to actually change the situation. Like get out of this mine and do some exciting things.

Get out of the mine.

That was a weird metaphor.

Super weird. Okay, let's get into some stories. So first I, you know, just to balance things out, just to show all different sides, I did want to read the story from somebody that this worked out for in the end. I developed a small crush on someone who I worked for with after I found out that my partner had been cheating on me for an extended period of time. Despite the cheating, we stayed together for another year to try and make it work. But my small crush developed into deeper feelings. Fast forward a few years and the colleague and I now live together and have his nine year old son every other weekend. The feelings for him are deeper than anything I've previously experienced and he feels like home, I guess for me. Whilst I didn't act whilst. Who's is that British? Yeah, whilst whelst I didn't act on these feelings until the other relationship was over. I think they were able to grow because of how unhappy I was. I guess that's just food for thought. If the feelings run deep, maybe a closer analysis of the relationship you are in is needed.

Yeah, I mean this one makes a lot of sense to me in that like it sounds like this is a situation where the relationship was falling. The original relationship is already falling apart and you know, one could argue like, okay, they stuck in it for a year to try to make it work. Yeah, I think a lot of people do that when the writing is already on the wall that like, you know, I'm not saying that you should or shouldn't try to make it work. I think that's a very individual decision that is going to be up to you guys. But I think that often, you know, when there's a big betrayal of trust, you know, the relationship could be as good as over. Whether or not you're saying that you're going to be trying to make it work.

Here's a different story. I went through this in 2019 when my husband and I were having issues around my not wanting to have children. I felt ashamed and was definitely vulnerable to self sabotage. I've never felt attraction like this outside my marriage and it was horrible. What helped was I spoke to the person about It. And we agreed I would not blow up my marriage. And he shared things with me he knew would give me the ick.

Oh, smart guy.

Brilliant. How his.

My poop really stinks. Actually double, double smell.

I didn't think we'd ever be talking about poop so much in an episode that has nothing to do with poop. How his beard hair is all over the bathroom. How he doesn't know how to cook, how his feet smell. Imagining all the dirty details of his reality really helped me unplug from the fantasy and appreciate what I loved about my husband. As messy as things were between us at that time.

Yeah. I mean, it really so much.

Great advice.

So much of, you know, crushes really is fantasy. It's like, you know. Yeah. If you are married to someone and you're living with them, you're talking to someone else, you are very obviously not living with the person you have the crush on. You have no idea what their habits are like at home. And I would venture a guess that if you knew all the details you know about them, that you know about your current partner, you would probably not have that level of crush. And if you still do, then maybe that's a great sign that that person is better for you.

Okay, let's look at some stories of people who are currently struggling with this.

Okay.

One person said, I find myself fantasizing about my co worker when I'm being intimate with my partner. I'm just gonna come straight out and say, you gotta stop this. Like, they're.

Yeah, this isn't gonna end well.

Fantasizing about somebody. Okay, well, let me. Let me be clear. Every now and then, it's okay to fantasize about somebody else when you're with.

Your partner if it just kind of happens.

I never make any, like, hard and fast, just. Absolutely not, absolutely, yes kinds of rule. Well, not never, but even with my.

Where are we going here?

I'm getting too meta. My brain's broken. I'm like, even with my rules, sometimes I'm not black and white. Anyways. It's okay every once in a while to fantasize about somebody else. But if you're regularly fantasizing about the same person while you're with your partner, that's just bad news. Like, it. That's really a really tough situation to put yourself in. You're torturing yourself. Like, stop.

I mean, I feel like this is kind of like what we talk about with, like, I don't know, like, porn or masturbating a certain way or like, death Grip or something where it's like, okay, yeah, like, you know, occasionally doing something is fine, but then it's like if you find that the only way you can do something is a very specific way, I have to watch the same thing. I have to squeeze really hard. I have to use this specific vibrator in a certain way. Like you are locking yourself into only being able to have sex or orgasm or whatever in this very specific way. And if that specific way is not compatible with the rest of your life, then you're creating a problem for yourself.

I'm in a hetero relationship, but I'm attracted to someone of the same sex for the first time. This is a very interesting twist on the crush phenomenon. We have been talking about this a little bit in some past episodes about being in a, you know, male, female relationship, but feeling attraction to other people. There's a term called bi erasure for people in these sorts of situations where it's like everybody else assumes that you're heterosexual because you're in a seemingly heterosexual relationship. And so your identity of being bisexual or even your curiosity of like, maybe I am or even just, you know, I have an attraction to somebody of the same sex. Like there's a way that, that you're not being seen. And so for this person, like they're, you know, just recognizing for the first time, like, oh, I have the capacity to be attracted to somebody of my same sex. So it just, it takes on a different kind of vibe where I think what I would do if I was in this situation was just I would actually try to celebrate, like knowing more about myself and discovering something new about myself. Like, oh, I didn't realize I had that capacity. And like, that's really cool. And I would feel grateful to that person for illuminating that for me. Now, of course, it does bring up a really central, challenging question that comes up for people who are bi in straight seeming relationships. It's like, if you have never had the chance to explore a same sex relationship before, is that something that feels very important for you or not? So like, some people will get into that situation and think, okay, I'm just discovering this about myself. Like, this feels like a really, you know, this is a new part of my identity. This feels really important. I can't imagine going for the rest of my life and never exploring this. Like, never knowing, was it just a curiosity or was it genuinely like an attraction and, you know, something that I wanted to explore versus other people might get into this scenario and think, okay, this is really cool that I Know this about myself. I'm glad that I, like, have uncovered this deeper, richer layer of my personal identity. I am bummed that I'm not gonna get to explore this. There is a grief around knowing this whole part of my identity will not be expressed. But I'm in a relationship with somebody I love. I'm not interested in or willing to, like, blow up my whole life to explore this. So, like, I can feel that grief and choose not to do anything about it.

And I think that that, like, yeah, there's nothing wrong with you if that's the situation you're in. I mean, in reality, that is. You know, that type of thing happens to so many of us just on a smaller scale, like, throughout our lives. Of, like, yeah, you're gonna find out that you are attracted to somebody else, and that attraction is probably going to fade. And it's like, just because you are attracted to someone doesn't mean that you need to act on it. And. And, you know, just because you discover, oh, there's actually a different gender that I'm attracted to, there's actually a different person or type of person that I'm attracted to. Doesn't mean that you need to act on it, though. I mean, you do have to take responsibility for yourself and figure out, okay, what, you know, do I. Do I want to act on this or do I not want to act on this? If I want to act on it, then, okay, am I willing to make certain changes in my life so that I can reasonably act on it or responsibly act on it or not? Do I feel like, fine the way I am? And the reality is most of us do this constantly. Of, like, okay, I was attracted to this person, and I learned a little bit more about them, and that attraction kind of faded. Or I took action or steps to help that attraction fade, and I stuck with the person I'm with and I moved on and, you know, nobody got hurt. Great.

A guy at the gym always gives me compliments, and he is also so attractive. I wish my significant other would give me these kinds of compliments, but he doesn't.

Well, this is a great example of it, like, illuminating the things that are missing in your relationship. So it sounds like you have a great opportunity to have a discussion about compliments. I think we even have a free compliments guide on how to give a great compliment. You could download that.

Oh, yeah, we can stick the link.

Give it to your partner. Yeah, we'll put the link to that in the. In the show notes. Yeah, compliments are such a funny thing because, you know, we often don't talk about compliments and what types of compliments we like or how much we even like compliments at all. And some people just assume, oh, well, of course, everyone loves compliments and other people don't love them and assume, well, that doesn't. That's not so important. Like, I'd rather show my affection through action or whatever. And when we don't talk about, you know, kind of like our love languages, the way that we like to give and receive love, then it's so easy to just have these misunderstandings of, like, I would bet that your partner doesn't love compliments, and so he doesn't give them very often or very freely. But if he understood how important that was for you and he saw the impact it had on you when he gave you more, I bet you he probably would. So this is a huge opportunity for you.

I've been attracted to my husband's good friend for years now. He feels the same way. My husband and this other person have been friends for 20 plus years and have essentially lost contact in the last five to six years. But me and this other person will communicate here and there, and the connection is incredibly strong. We cannot deny it. But I'm terrified of what this means. I am. And what kind of lie this is. My husband and I have a great relationship, much in credit to your teachings and support with your book, podcast, and guide. But the guilt with the feelings for this other person can eat away at me. Oof.

This is. This is a tough one. It feels like. Honestly, it feels like you are at a point where you need to make a decision about what direct. I mean, this is a sliding doors moment for you.

Oh, I don't think so. I disagree.

Well, I mean, but I was gonna say, I mean, they're. They're. They obviously have talked to each other about the attraction. She knows that this person is attracted to her. So there's kind of been some amount of acknowledgement about what is going on between them. She's talking about it of like, you know, kind of like possibly being living in a lie and is really guilty. What I'm saying is it's a sliding doors moment where I think it's time to decide, okay, like, do I want to take action and change the course of my life, or do I want to take action in an opposite way and perhaps, perhaps cut off contact with this person and kind of lean into the, you know, the. The life that you are in now?

I kind of disagree to Me, Like, I think that this is the exact kind of person that needs to listen to this episode and recognize, like, what you are going through is very normal. It's very common. It's okay. Like, it doesn't mean that you need to blow up your whole life. And I don't think that. That she sounds like she wants to blow up her whole life anyways. I think if she would just hear, like. Like, yeah, it's normal to have this strong connection with somebody else. That's okay. Like, I feel like that would just make her think, like, oh, it is. Like, I don't. I don't. I feel like she's torturing herself unnecessarily. Like, I do. I do see that she's saying, like, our connection is incredibly strong, but I don't think it's to the point where she's like, I want to be with this man.

Yeah.

I don't know.

I might be reading between the lines here. Some of the things I read here made me suspect that perhaps there's a little more behind this one. Since you're talking about, like, you know, we both know that we are attracted to each other. I'm terrified about what this means.

And, like, yeah, I mean, that's why I think, like, she just needs to hear, like, this is. It's normal and it's okay. Obviously, having this communication with him behind your husband's back, that's not okay. Like, that is crossing some boundaries. That is being disrespectful. But, like, the. The essence of the feelings and the connection is normal and okay.

Yes.

So my recommendation to her would. To have a conversation with him and say, look, this connection that we have is undeniable. Like, it definitely is strong, but I love my husband. I have a really great relationship with him. I. I don't know. Maybe I'll fill in some blanks here. Like, I know you love your wife, and, you know, you guys have a great relationship. Like, I think it's best for us to just cut off communication here. I will always think of you, like, fondly and sweetly, and, you know, maybe in another lifetime we can be together, but, like, I think it's best for us to just cut contact here.

Yeah. Oh. So we are in agreement. I was saying that that is one. You know, it's like, she's got to decide to either do that, or.

I guess the, like, sliding doors moment felt, like, too strong for me. Like, maybe I'm just reading it in a totally different way. But to me, I just thought, like, if she Just heard that normalizing of like it's normal to have feelings for other people that that just might.

Yeah. I don't know. Oh yeah. But I mean I think that it this. Given the amount of time this has gone on and the intensity of it, I doubt that just learning that this is a normal thing will make it go away. Such that you can continue to be in contact with this person, continue to be friends, but not have this level of attraction and guilt that comes along with it. I don't think that that is going to happen at this point.

Okay, here's our last story. I've been in a committed relationship for 16 years. Never once thought about actually being with someone else. Sure, I found other people attractive, but that's it until now.

Oh, plot twist.

There's been a major attraction between myself and a work colleague. We've known each other on a professional level for over five years. We only occasionally run into each other and when we do, there's always been this vibe between us. Never intentionally flirty, we just connect on a different level. A couple months ago he contacted me to ask for some advice on a work project and we really got to chatting. It got a little flirtatious and we admitted that we felt this connection. P.S. i should mention he's also in a committed relationship. Our texting has gotten a bit out of hand and is not that innocent anymore. We have not met up in person at all as we don't think this would be a good idea based on these feelings. It's all very confusing and for the first time I'm questioning would I actually do something with this other person? I'll admit that this exchange has brought out a very different side to me. A side I like. I feel confident, sexy and powerful. I know I should be looking to find this in my own relationship. Long term relationships do lose that initial spark if you don't put in the effort. My partner and I have both fallen into a very comfortable place. I like the excitement and attention that feeling attracted to this other person brings me.

Uh huh. Well, this person is literally making the case that the like ethical non monogamy community makes for why, you know, open relationships are exciting of like bringing a zing back into your relationship. But it sounds like I'm assuming that you are not in an open type of relationship and that you know, you both you and this other person are in sort of committed monogamous relationships based on how you are talking about this. So yeah, I mean I really appreciate how circumspect this person is. I Mean, they're calling out, like, all the things that I would already say of, like, you know, that these are things that you are lacking in your current relationship. These are things that you need in your current relationship. Yeah, I mean, the thing that not bothers me, but I mean, the thing that is kind of the flag for me is that you guys have both talked about how, like, you've acknowledged sort of is these potential feelings for each other, and you've set some boundaries of, we're not going to meet up with each other.

That's smart.

Which is smart. But then the problem is you're like. Like, it's like you set. You set a boundary that is, like, already a kind of too far boundary because you're like, okay, well, we won't meet up with each other, so we won't do anything physical. But then we're just going to keep doing all this stuff up to that point, which is still, I'm guessing, in the.

In.

I'm guessing, like, based on the. The bounds of your current relationship, I'm guessing that your partner would probably feel kind of cheated on emotionally if they were to find out. I don't know.

You know, I just thought of we should do another episode called Is this Cheating? Ooh.

Like, oh, yeah.

Go over different scenarios and, yeah, seriously, I realize we obviously have not talked that much about cheating in this episode yet, but of course, like, in these, you know, in these more complex scenarios, like, there is an emotional infidelity that's going on here as well.

Yeah. I mean, this is a really extreme example, but it would kind of be like if you're like, like, okay, we're not gonna cheat, so no sex, but we're gonna do, like, hand jobs constantly.

Oh, God.

It's like, that's an extreme example, but that kind of sounds like what you're doing. It's like you set a boundary of, like, okay, let's make sure nothing physical happens, but then let's not make sure that nothing emotional happens. And in fact, that's just, you know, you kind of made the emotional infidelity, so to speak, almost feel more attractive in Taboo because you know that nothing physical is going to happen.

It's like, ooh, let's have as much fun with this texting thing as we can.

So, yeah, I mean, it sounds like if you're both being rational, that you need to have another conversation about, hey, you know, how we don't want to have anything physical happen. Well, it feels like a whole lot of emotional stuff is happening, and this is not fair to either of our partners. And it's time for us to stop. Unless you do want to. Both of you want to blow everything up, but then you got to go through the whole process that Vanessa talked about of like, really play the tape out. Are you going to like the way their poop smells? Probably not.

All right, well, let's wrap things up with our review of the week. So if you've never heard us talk about this. Reviews mean so much to the podcast. It is truly the only way that the podcast can grow, reach new people, help more people. I know it sounds like this silly little thing. Believe me, like, I had never written a review before. I had my own podcast. I didn't get it. I heard people ask asked for reviews and it was like, okay, whatever. But it now that I have one, I truly do understand how important they are. So we really appreciate you taking the time to leave a review. It can take you 60 seconds or less on Apple Podcasts. You just go to the main pillow talks page, scroll to the bottom, you'll see the review section there. At the very least, you can leave us a little star rating or star rating on Spotify as well. But if you leave a written review on Apple podcast, we will automatically enter you into a giveaway every week going forward. So if you hear your review read on an episod, you can email us@infomtherapy.com and we will give you a free prize. As our way of saying thank you, we'll give you one of our masterclasses. Absolutely. For free. Okay, so here's this week's review of the week. 10 out of 10 recommend this podcast has been so eye opening and hilarious. Honestly, Vanessa and Xander make sex not a taboo topic and they make it what it should be, fun. They answer the questions you don't want to google, they help you feel normal about things that society will probably make you feel not normal about. And their banter and relationship is seriously the best. Start listening. Your relationship will appreciate it. Thanks, guys.

Thank you. That's very sweet.

That's very sweet.

And we'd also love it if you want to stay up to date with us. We've been releasing a bunch of new and exciting products recently and we really do not want you to miss out. So the easiest way for you to stay in the loop with us is by signing up for our email list. You can join by going to vmtherapy.com subscribe and if you want to go the extra mile, then give us a follow on social media. Too. We are Vanessa and Xander on both Instagram and TikTok. We're also going to put the link to that compliments guide in the show notes as well.

All right, well, that's all for today's episode of Pillow Talks. Thanks so much for listening. And join us again next week when we answer all your burning questions about female orgasm. Sam.