EPISODE 174: Ask Us Anything: Addressing All Of Your Assumptions

You know, like we're still having like a team meeting and talking about, you know, oh, what are the projections and what are this, this table and this data?

Like, oh, you know what? We are actually really horny right now. We'll be back. Give us, give us three minutes.

Oh, three minutes. Hello and welcome to the Pillow Talks podcast. We're your hosts, Vanessa and Xander Marin. I'm a sex Therapist with over 20.

Years of experience, and I'm just regular dude. We share the ups and downs in our relationship while giving you step by step techniques for improving yours.

Make sure you subscribe for your weekly double date full of totally doable sex tips, practical relationship advice, hilarious and honest stories of what really goes on behind closed bedroom doors, and so much more. It's the sex education you wish you'd had. It is time for another round of Ask us Anything.

Oh, shit.

And we decided this time, let's make an ass out of everyone.

Out of you, out of me, out.

Of all of us. We went over to Instagram and we said, tell us your assumptions about us.

Show us your ass. What?

No, don't show us your ass on Instagram. Please don't. No. We asked, what do you assume about us individually, together as a couple, our business. And I even said, like, we give you permission to be nosy, be a little bit spicy, come in hot. Nobody was like, outright mean, fortunately.

Wow.

But yeah, so we've got a lot of interesting questions and we are going to go through them and give you our completely honest answers on whether your assumption is correct or not.

Yeah, let's make an ass out of you guys.

I mean, now that sounds mean. I mean, we asked them to do this.

We asked them to do this. But before we get into any kind of ass making, we got to give you this week's review of the week. Because reviews are so, so important to us. If you've never left us a review, please do it right now. Leave us a five star review. Go to the main Pillow Talks page on Apple Podcasts. Scroll all the way to the bottom. Leave that five star review and then write a couple kind words or mean words if you really don't like our podcast.

Don't tell people to write mean words.

No, you just write, please, please say nice things to us. Because honestly, those reviews go such a long way to helping other people who may not know us so well, know that we are a legit podcast and that we are worth listening to, that we are not asses ourselves. Please leave us that review as a thank you for leaving A review. We will enter you for life into our review of the week giveaway. Which means if you hear your review read like the one I am about to read, that means that you've won. And you've won a free masterclass. And you can DM us on Instagram or email us at infovm Therapy to claim your prize. Spice up your life with Pillow Talks. Pillow Talks is my go to for all things sex ed. Hosted by the fabulous Vanessa and Xander, every episode dives into juicy topics and serves up something new to learn. The hosts are a blast. Fun, smart, and super relatable. They even make the trickiest subjects feel like a breeze. And whether you're a newbie or just looking to spice things up, this podcast is a must. Listen. Five stars, no question. If you're not listening to Pillow Talks, you're seriously missing out.

That's such a nice review. Thank you so much for leaving that. Okay, let's get into your assumptions. I thought we'd start off Hot and Heavy with Xander likes to be pegged.

Oh, we're going.

There we are. So tell the people. Do you like to be pegged?

Okay, we are coming in Hot and Heavy. You were not kidding. Well, the answer to that is no. I don't. I don't. Well, we haven't really tried.

Have you ever been pegged?

I have not ever been pegged.

Do you have an interest, an excitement about being pegged?

No, I don't. We've definitely played around with some amount of anal play, and I definitely, like a kind of, like, minor amount of that. But, yeah, the idea of the kind of, like, full, unpegging, it just doesn't really. It doesn't, like, pique my. My interest. Okay. All right, Vanessa, now we're coming in on you. Vanessa can't stand being wrong.

This is false as well. I. Maybe at different stages in my life, I would have been, like, a little more worked up about it, but I really don't mind being wrong. Sometimes I actually like being wrong. Like, if I, you know, there's something that I've learned, I. I don't mind apologizing at all. I'll be totally honest. Of course, there are certain times where it's like, I really want Xander to see my perspective and understand, and I want to convince him about something. Of course. But in general, I would not describe myself as somebody who can't stand being wrong. I think. Yeah, there are always so many interesting learning and growth opportunities when you're wrong. Next one. You're lonely. Either of us yeah, that was all that was put in the question box, that you're lonely. Are you lonely?

No, I'm not lonely. We definitely, like, I am. I am working on, like, building my new group of friends here in Santa Barbara. We moved here about two and a half years ago, so there's definitely, like, more work to do there. But we actually are. I mean, we have, like, a pretty solid group of friends. We have a lot of family here. Yeah, I mean, actually, honestly, I feel like I have more friends here now than I did in la. In la, I had a couple very close friends. But, you know, like, friends who are kind of like, LA is big, and we lived all over the place and it's like, kind of challenging to, like, see people that don't live in your neighborhood in la. And so, like, I feel like I actually am hanging out with people and friends on a way, like, way more often than back when we lived in Los Angeles.

I'm definitely not lonely. Yeah, I feel like I have really strong friendships, really strong family. You and I are together all the time. Like, yeah, I don't really relate to feeling lonely at all. I wonder where that came from. Like, why did somebody assume that? I feel like all these assumptions, like. Well, here, actually, this is a good question. Do you think people are just making, like, wild guesses, or do you think this is, like, something that they genuinely have thought? Like, those people seem like they're lonely?

I don't know is a good question. You could go back to. Go back through the question box on Instagram, find that person and DM them.

But why do you think we're lonely?

Well, no, no, here's. Here's what I will say is I could imagine somebody watching our social media, like, you know, kind of from the outside looking in. Like, the way that we do our social is like, we're not. We don't.

Oh, yeah, we don't ever post our friends.

We don't post, like, social content of, like, what we're really doing. Every now and then, like, maybe with your family will post some funny things, but that's more like when we use, like, travel or something.

We just have no friends. It's just only ever us.

Yeah, it might look like we don't do very much because, like, we don't really see ourselves as, like, influencers, you.

Know, I'm not like, trying to post, like, you know, oh, here's my dinner, and, like, my big group of friends. Also, like, because our account is so big, I feel like I would have to ask permission to Everybody, like, hey, are you cool with like me posting this?

Yeah, it's a weird.

Don't really care.

Yeah, it's a weird dynamic. Yeah. When you, you know, have, you know, none of our friends are, you know, like have like massive social media accounts, so it's like. Yeah, it's not like. And even when you're hanging out with like, like business friends that have big accounts, like, we, we don't get off on like doing Instagram. Like, there's definitely some people where it's like, okay, like we're getting together and everything's going on Instagram and that's just content. Yeah. Like making content, but that's just not really what our life looks like.

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Vanessa, we pause work for middle of the day sex.

Okay. This is the first correct assumption.

Sometimes, sometimes not. Like every day.

No, not every day, but like, yeah, we definitely do.

Yeah, 100%.

One of the big things we hear from people a lot is they think that we get like really turned on by working. Like we get really turned on recording this podcast and we just have to like stop and go have sex.

We don't.

That does not happen. We've never stopped recording the podcast to go fuck. And we've never like, it's never been like in a meeting. You know, like the thing that yes, we work with sex and relationships are super fascinating topics. But, but it's also still work. We're still having a team meeting and talking about, oh, what are the projections and what are this table and this data?

Oh, you know what we are Actually really horny right now. We'll be back. Give us three minutes.

Oh, three minutes. Why'd you just drag yourself like that?

I'm just kidding.

Three minutes. No. So, yeah, I mean, we, like, we don't get. I actually would say we don't really often get like turned on by our work. It's more like we work from home.

We get turned on by each other.

We get turned on by each other. We like the freedom of a little afternoon delight. That tends to be like the best time for us to have sex anyways. So we do that, but it's not like, oh, my God, this podcast has me so horny, I just have to go do it.

Yeah. We have never paused work in a way that has impacted anybody else.

Yeah.

Or anybody else has known about. So, you know, it's just. And honestly, if you work from home with your partner or spouse or whomever, if you work from home together, like, I would highly encourage a little taking a quick break.

Who's the whomever?

Well, I don't know.

Like if you work with from home, with whomever.

Your roommate with benefits. I don't know.

All right, Xander, next assumption. You don't cook.

Oh, you could not be more wrong. I do cook. If this were. Vanessa doesn't cook. Vanessa cooks a little.

I bake, I make dessert.

You have a limited repertoire of cooking.

I cook breakfast. I can cook dessert. I'm not a great.

She's not a meat. A meat cooker.

I'm not a meat cooker. I'm a good vegetable and like sides cooker. I can follow a recipe.

Yeah, you're great at like cooking out of a cookbook.

I'm a good cook.

Ideally if it doesn't include meat meal.

Lanner and prepper kind of thing, but. Yeah, but we do a lot of cooking.

We do. Here's the next one. You'll never truly understand parents experiences with sex because you're child free.

That's correct. Absolutely. We've always been like, really open and honest about that, but that actually extends far beyond just parents. I think we approach life and our advice with a lot of humility about what we do and don't know. Like, we will never presume that, that we know what anybody else's relationship looks like, what anybody else's life looks like. So whenever we're giving any sort of advice, like, we never are going to say, like, everybody has to do this, or you're bad if you don't do this, or this should be so easy for you to do this. Everybody has unique circumstances. We are so respectful of that. So, yeah, we never make assumptions that we understand someone's experience and we definitely never make assumptions that we understand what it's like to be parents because we are child free. If you've never heard us talk about that before, we have episode 37 of the podcast. It's a super vulnerable, intimate episode that tells our whole story of deciding to become child free. It was not an easy decision for us at all. It was not what we thought our lives were going to look like when we got married. But definitely check that out if you're interested in more. But you know, I think we have continued to share throughout the years, like, yeah, we're not going to ever understand that experience because we're not going to have that. But even still, if we did have kids, I would still say I don't understand what it's like for you to be a parent. Oh, yeah, I don't have your kids. I'm not living your life. I'm not in your situation. And I think that's actually one of the biggest problems with parenting focused content these days is there are so many people out there saying, like, oh, all parents should do this. You're a bad parent if you don't do that.

Speaking from my, like, my observation of like, n equals 1. My observation of, I have my own experience of my child or my children, and therefore I can tell you how to raise your kids based on your situation that I don't actually understand.

Yeah, I mean, I actually think I would be infuriated by that if I was a parent. And like, hearing somebody say, like, you have to do this or you're bad if you're doing this.

Yeah, it works for me. So why wouldn't it work for you?

Yeah, it's like, you're not living my life. You don't have my kids. You don't know. You don't know me. So, yeah, even if we did have our own kids, I still think we would be very careful and respectful of not saying, like, this is what it's like, this is what you have to do. Obviously there is like, there are certain common experiences that you can have and maybe there is like a shared language in having a same experience with somebody, like, you know a little bit of what it's like. But again, like, I feel like it's more dangerous than helpful to assume you know what it's like for somebody else, because we don't. We never ever will know what it's like to be in somebody else's Shoes. Okay. I'm curious to see where you're gonna take this next one. Xander, you're both a bit bougie.

Yeah, I think we are.

You would describe yourself as being bougie? Boogie. I can't even say it.

Boogie.

Boogie.

I mean, what exactly do we mean by bougie?

Well, let's look it up. Okay. According to Google, bougie is someone who's middle class but wants to live a wealthier, more lavish lifestyle. It can also be used to describe high end tastes. As a noun, bougie can refer to someone who supports traditional customs and values, prioritizes money, education and social class, enjoys expensive and unusual things, aspires to the upper middle class, flaunts newly acquired wealth. According to that definition.

According to that definition, I'd say no. I mean the one thing is, yeah, I do enjoy certain finer things.

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I mean, we enjoy like, nice hotels, a nice hotel.

You like surfboards?

I like surfboards, though. I. You know what, you don't know this, but there are, there's like next level surfboard manufacturers that make like, boards that are like one and a half, like one and a half times more than kind of what like the typical surfboard costs. That one I showed you that my, that my friend was talking about, that's like the next echelon of surfboards. But I don't have a. I don't have an interest in that yet.

I mean, yeah, there are like a couple of things, a couple of nice things that I do enjoy, but I don't think any more than the average. Like, I think everybody has a couple nice things that they enjoy. And there are also a ton of things that I do not give a shit about and will not spend money on. Like, I don't have like super fancy expensive purses. I don't have designer shoes or anything like that. Like, I don't, I don't know, get manicures and pedicures. Like, those are obviously not super expensive, but I just, yeah, there's a lot of stuff that I don't particularly care about. I like a good hotel. I like good skin care, but I kind of consider skincare more as like health and wellness type of stuff.

Yeah, we're bougie when it comes to health and wellness.

Yes. For sure. We invest a lot in our health and wellness because we both want to like, be living happy and healthy lives way into our 80s 90s hundreds.

Yeah. And we like the way that that makes us feel now too.

But of the, of the description that I read off of Google, like, I definitely value education, but I don't know, I think in general, like, money is not that important to us. Like, it's not something that.

We're not social climbers.

No, obviously everybody, like, we all need money. And of course money makes life easier.

We'll talk.

We have some more money questions that we'll get to too. But you and I are not like, wildly money motivated.

Yeah.

So I would not describe us as bougie.

Okay, well, what about this one? Vanessa? Vanessa, low key, looks down on Xander.

This one was like, was the closest to mean that anybody got. I was like, oh, okay. This one is false. I don't look down on you, babe.

Is this, is this from like the Looks that you give me sometimes, like, on Instagram stories or.

I love. I love laughing at you, but it's like a. Laughing with you. Like, you are very willing to be ridiculous, to be entertaining. Like, you do very funny stuff on Instagram, and it cracks me up, and it makes life with you very fun and exciting and enjoyable.

Yeah.

So it's always a. You know, I laugh together with you, but it's never a. Like, oh, this guy sucks.

Sometimes I try silly or goofy things, like, on Instagram, stories that don't work.

Yeah.

And, you know, this is. Guys, this is like. This is the reality of creating content together. Especially with where Vanessa is sort of the expert and I am like, you know, the guy just trying to. Kind of trying to, like, mix things up a bit and inject a little bit of humor or everyday reality into it. So, like, you know, she, as the expert, may sort of have a vision of, okay, here's how I want this story to sound or this thing that I'm talking about. Like, here's kind of the message that I want to send, and then. And then I kind of jump in and I might try something a little different or whatever. And so you kind of may have a little bit of a clash where it's like, okay, she had a vision for what this is going to look like, and then I had it. I can't call it a vision. I had an idea for maybe something that could have been funny, and then sometimes it doesn't quite work. So you might sometimes see Vanessa being like, oh, buddy, what are you doing?

I never post that if I don't think it landed. I mean, there are things that I do that don't really land either.

Yeah, I know, but.

Yeah, no, I'm never looking down on you. I love you. I admire you, I respect you, and I think you're amazing.

Aw, thank you.

All right, Xander, here's the next one. Because you overshare your relationship online, it's a hot mess behind the scenes. And then we actually had a different one on the other end of the spectrum that said you never fight.

Both of those are straight up wrong. I would say it is very far from a hot mess behind the scenes. It's pretty damn functional and healthy. We do fight, though.

Yeah, we absolutely do.

We, I think, are pretty good at fighting, though. So we fight pretty effectively. It's kind of. It's short and sweet.

I wouldn't say sweet, but it's short.

It's short. We both, you know, get our. We get our jabs in and Then we. Then we try to take accountability for.

Jab at each other for what happened.

So little. Little minor little pokes.

Yeah, we do little, little pokes at each other.

I cannot say we are. Yeah, I can't say that we are ever really trying to hurt the other person. But, you know, we. We both. We've been together a long time.

We. Yeah, we.

You know, we know how to poke at each other.

We know the buttons to pres. I mean, I hope that, like, it actually bums me out to see there were a bunch of people saying, you never fight. And it sort of bums me out to see that, because it's definitely not our goal to present ourselves as having a perfect relationship. Mostly because we don't believe that actually exists. Like, nobody has a perfect relationship.

Also, whoever wrote this in hasn't really been watching our Instagram stories that closely, because we talk about the disagreements that we get into very often after the fact.

Yeah, well, this is.

Or maybe they don't feel like serious disagreements.

Yeah, this is one of the challenges of showing, like, the realness of your relationship. Like, just think about the logistics of how this would work on stories. Let's say Xander and I are in a big fight. We've just had, like, you know, just had this huge conflict. We're not speaking to each other. What am I gonna do? Or am I gonna, like, interrupt the fight and be like, hold on, babe, let me hit record on stories. Let's have everybody watch us fight?

Yeah, I'm not. I'm not. Okay. No, I mean. I mean, I'll just say I'm not okay being in a relationship like that.

Oh, no, I'm not gonna put that.

I'd be out. I'd be out if we were doing that.

Yeah, I'm not interested in that either. I'm also not interested in, like. Yeah, let's say we. We put a pause in the fight. We're like, separate, you know, on separate sides of the house or whatever. Like, I'm not gonna go onto Instagram when something's unresolved and be like, you guys, this motherfucker. Listen to what he just did to me. I'm so pissed.

And then. And then I jump on and be like, I can't believe you just said that. So not what happened now, babe, that would be some. That would be some good content.

People would be insane.

People would be watching that shit.

But, I mean, honestly, I actually kind of wish someone would be brave enough to show that, because it would be great to see. See people actually fighting but, like, for us, we're not going to do that. We do really try to talk about conflict after the fact. So we make it, like, normalized. Like, we're very in love with each other, we have a very happy relationship, and we fight, we disagree, we hurt each other's feelings. Like, that's just a part of being in a relationship. And we try to, like, teach some of the skills that we use to, like, overcome the conflict, to move on, to not have resentment build. But we try to be really honest and realistic about, like, this is a healthy, normal part of being in a relationship. But I just think because, because of the logistics, you're only ever seeing it after the fact. When we're feeling good, we've resolved it, we processed it. We processed it. So it, like, doesn't really even feel like a conflict. It's just like, oh, yeah, you know, So I get that. I know that. I have definitely. I've looked at other accounts that I follow and they'll share something about, like, oh, we had an argument about da, da da. And I have totally caught myself being like, whoa, I thought those guys never argue. You know, it's just this. It's just this weird way that social media gets into our head and makes us think. Like, because I'm not seeing it, it's not happening, but it absolutely is happening between the two of us. We fight. We've had some gnarly fights. Like, we've been through some shit. We've been through some shit.

We have been through it.

We do not have the perfect relationship. We do not aspire to have the perfect relationship. We do our best to share the realities of that with you guys. But there's also. Yeah, there's just limitations on how much we can share.

Not, not can. We always can. There's limitations on how much we want to share.

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All right, moving on to something a little lighter. You're both okay with your partner coming into the bathroom while you're in there?

Absolutely not.

I'm okay with it. If I'm peeing, I will pee in front of Vanessa. I will not poop in front of her.

Even if I wanted to be in there.

No, no, I. I could not.

I would not want to be in there. I don't really even care to like, I don't really like to be in there while you're peeing either. I'm like, ugh, let me get out of here. I so. Okay, first, let's just say zero judgment to people who do do this. Everybody has really different approaches to this. We've heard from people who are like, it actually makes me feel closer to my partner. It feels like intimacy that, like, I don't have to hide myself from them. That we can just like let our bodies be bodies in front of each other.

Oh, yeah, you do. You.

Yeah, I totally get that. I respect that. And it's just not how I feel personally.

Yeah. I show my vulnerability in other ways.

Yeah.

Like verbal. Verbal Ways, not pooping. No, no shade to you. Like, if it feels things are not mutually exclusive. Vulnerability in a physical way. I mean, we show vulnerability in a physical way, in other ways. But. But yeah, it's just like. Yeah, I feel like, you know, my, my vulnerability needs are met for me.

Yeah, it's like there's zero shame about pooping, peeing, bodily functions, like, bodies are just bodies. We do this stuff. It is so healthy. It's so normal. Like, there's nothing to be ashamed of. So it's not coming from a place of shame. Like, oh, my God, you should never do that in front of another person. And I think especially as a woman, we do get a lot of crappy, you know, socialization where like, oh, I never poop, I never fart. You know, like, we're say that kind of crap. So it's. For me, it's not coming from that. It's just that, I don't know, being in the bathroom is kind of like my personal space. It's my little moment to just be by myself. I don't really like.

Yeah, I want my little poop vacation. I don't want you interrupting that. I want to be on my phone in my, like 49ers YouTube content doing my thing.

Yeah, it's my little break, you know.

It'S like, it's the new cigarette break, you know, Basically, barely anyone smokes cigarettes anymore. Yeah, it's my cigarette break, yo. Give me my 10, 15 minutes, my content.

All right, Xander, here's the next one. You've tried swinging slash open marriage.

I haven't.

How about us? I don't know why that would be different.

I don't know. You got to answer. Heavy.

But we have together. No, no, this is false.

Yeah. Before meeting Vanessa, there were very short, minor periods of time in my life where I was like, available to date. And that wasn't something that I did very much just because that's kind of how the timing of everything worked out. And. Yeah, no, multiple. Multiple people at the same time was just stressful to me. And so the idea of being in a full ass relationship and dating or having sex with multiple people sounds stressful and just not what I'm looking for.

Yeah, this is another one where we have zero judgment about people choosing different options. Like, we have always been very outspoken about the fact that we think people should consciously choose monogamy, not just default to it, because that's what everybody else does. So we think that swinging, having some sort of open marriage, any kind of ethical, non monogamy is a great option for a lot of people. Um, it's just for us personally, not what we choose to have in our own relationship and yet what either of us have had in previous relationships. But totally support people doing that if that's what feels right for them. Aside from sex and relationships, one of my other great loves in life is skincare. I am such a skincare junkie and it is really important to me to find products that actually work. Which is why I am so excited to tell you about One Skin. OneSkin's topical supplements are powered by their proprietary peptide OS1, scientifically proven to target the dysfunctional senescent cells that start to accumulate around age 30. These are the cells that make skin dull, dry and more prone to lines and wrinkles. Plus, all of One Skin's products for the face and body, including their new mineral sunscreens, are backed by lab and clinical studies and more than 8,000 five star reviews. For a limited time, you can try one skin for 15% off using the Code Pillow when you check out at OneSkin co. Start your new scientifically proven skincare routine today. With Oneskin I have both the eye and the face topical. They're super easy to use. They layer really nicely with other products and I like that. Oneskin focuses on making products that are really effective. So it's not like 15 step skin care routine. They just really focus on getting you those core products that are going to make a big difference. Leveraging their in house cutting edge R and D platform, they were able to measure the efficacy of age reversal molecules in their lab by staining skin samples in the lab for senescent cells and analyzing changes to the skin's genetic data before and after exposure to their proprietary OS1 peptide. One skin scientist found that OS1 reverses skin's biological age by reducing the number of senescent cells by up to 50%. One skin is the world's first skin longevity company. By focusing on the cellular aspects of aging, One Skin keeps your skin looking and acting younger for longer. Get started today with 15% off using Code Pillow at OneSkin co. That's 15% off OneSkin co with Code Pillow. After you purchase, they'll ask you where you heard about them. Please support Pillow talks and tell them that we sent you.

All right, our next one is that one of you took more convincing than the other for the no kids thing. Interesting.

Shockingly no. And that was really, really lucky for us. You know I know I already mentioned that child free episode. Definitely go back and check it Out. But one of the things we talked about is that we both thought that we were going to have kids. Like, we went into this marriage having a lot of conversations about, okay, we're on the same page about this, right? We do want to have kids.

Well, it was assuming that we wanted. I wouldn't say that we wanted to. We assumed that we would want to at a certain point.

Yes, we assumed that we would want to. But, like, that was the intention going in. It's like, we don't feel the active desire to have kids in this very moment. But we were young when we got married. We figured, we'll have a few years and then we'll feel the desire to. And both of us ended up changing our minds. And neither one of us required more convincing than the other. There was zero convincing involved. That was actually really important to us that we each made the space for the other to say, like, no, you know, like, having kids is really important to me. My life would not feel complete. I would not feel fulfilled if I did not have kids. So we definitely made the space for that. Neither one of us were interested in trying to convince the other one to change their mind. And amazingly, we both changed our minds, like, at the same time in the same way. It's actually pretty shocking looking back, because I think in another universe, I think both of us would have been willing to end the relationship if our partner said, like, I really need to have kids. Like, I can't see my life being fulfilled without that. But I will say, like, I remember way back in the day when we posted that original podcast episode. Cause that was, you know, within our first year of the podcast. I think we had some sort of reel up where we talked about it and people left comments. So I think this one is directed towards you. They think that you needed more convincing. Because I remember people leaving comments being like, you can see it in his eyes. He wants kids and he's gonna resent her for not having kids. Like, I remember that. I'm like, damn, that's fucked up. To post on people that, oh, yeah.

Every man wants to, like, sow his seed.

Exactly. It was like, he's not gonna feel like a real man unless he's sowed his seed and he's gonna resent her for the rest of his life.

Yeah. Nah, dawg. Yeah. I mean, I would say, let me see your eyes.

Convince me with your eyes that you don't want kids.

My eyes are darkening. That's from a silly reel that we did recently. But no, if anything, I think that both of us were a little worried. Like, we both started having these thoughts about, yeah, maybe, maybe not. Like, I'm not really feeling this kid thing. And both of us probably were a little worried. Like, oh, God, I'm kind of scared to say this to my partner, because what are they going to think? You know, we've talked about wanting to have kids and how is this going to work? And so it was kind of a, you know, it was almost like, like a coming out type of moment for both of us of like, oh, I got to come out with this information that is kind of contradictory to the assumption that we had been making going in. So it was a huge relief when we did finally talk about it. It was like, okay, yeah, wow. We actually are totally on the same page about this.

Okay, Xander, this one's a little bit similar to something we already talked about, but someone said, it's a lot harder than you make it look to work together and run a business as a couple.

I would say yes. It hasn't always been this easy. First of all, I went through a number of years of kind of back and forth, slash, figuring out, out whether I wanted to be full time working with you in what, at that point was your company. I was also doing some of my own HR consulting on the side, and I had a couple of clients and, you know, was like, being very successful at doing that. And I was trying to decide for myself, like, do I want to keep kind of splitting my time between these two things? Do I want to go all in on just my own consulting business? Do I want to go all in working with Vanessa? And I struggled with that decision for a while. I was kind of battling some of my own demons at the time with that. And it took me a long time and a lot of personal work to kind of really figure out what it was that I wanted. And ultimately, the choice that I made to stop doing that work on my own and go all in with Vanessa was, like, one of the best decisions I made. I kind of had an unhealthy relationship with some of the work that I was doing for myself. And when I finally cut that cord, it was like the biggest relief. But I also had to really work on how I showed up in working with Vanessa and what our roles were and whatnot, because for me, the challenge was before that I had come through the kind of, like, consulting and the corporate tech world, where, like, the way you show up at work, you show up a certain way, and you have certain expectations of how you communicate, you know, with teammates, with managers, and things that, like, you know, your manager would never say to you, and things that, you know, ways that your manager would say certain things to you and whatnot. And it's like, once you start working with your spouse, it's like, you're so much closer. You're not, like, beating around the bush with certain things when it comes to, like, you know, how your working relationship is. And that was hard for me.

Although that makes it sound like I'm saying horrible things to you. Like, your manager would never say that to you.

Well, no, I mean, I think that we just. We kind of cut right to the chase when we're communicating with each other about it. It's not like just you to me. I mean, it was just both of us talking to each other about things where it was like, I was, you know, I was operating from this beating around the bush kind of way, and you were like, no, like, I'm not having that with, you know, you're like, my spouse. Like, it's ridiculous. Like, why. Why do we need to beat around the bush about stuff? Like, let's just talk about, you know, the real shit. And that was hard for me at first because I had no experience with that in the workplace, and it took me a little while, and I'm very glad that I stuck that out. So, yes, we've done a lot of work on it. It is much easier now that we have spent years and years and years doing it. But for a couple years, it was definitely a challenge.

I mean, I would say it's still a challenge.

Oh, yeah. We have to still work at it every.

You know, every week, there's something coming up where it's just. Yeah, it's just totally different when you work with your partner. Like, things feel more personal. You do cut corners in communication. Sometimes. You. Like, in the same way that you annoy each other and get snippy with each other in your relationship, like, that happens in your work relationship, too. So it's. Yeah, it's definitely. I would not. I'll put it this way. I would not recommend that most people work with their partner. I think you and I do it really well because we have really worked on our communication style. We've gotten really clear on, like, how it is that we work together and how we run this business together. But it's definitely a challenge. It is definitely a challenge. And we. This is another one where it's like, we don't. We don't want to make it look easy on Instagram, but also, like, we're not really. We're not a business account, so we're not, like, sharing, you know, what it's really like to run a business. So we're not showing the. The ins and outs of, like, what that actually looks like.

Yeah. What I would say for you, if you are considering doing this with your partner, if one or both of you is opposed to going to couples therapy or really getting super honest about, like, your dynamics and your communication, do not try to work together. It is not going to work. You have to be very open and very curious about, you know, really tackling the tough stuff between you. Otherwise, it is not going to work. Okay, we're just going to continue going in on this. Vanessa wears the pants.

Yeah. I put these two together. Vanessa wears the pants. And the next one is, Xander is a feminine man.

Oh.

Because I, like, I honestly want to go on a little bit of a rant about gender dynamics.

Let's go, girl. Hit them.

So I'll say, like, I absolutely do not wear the pants in our relationship. I think you and I have a really balanced and fair relationship.

We've figured we both wear pants at times.

We both wear pants at times.

Sometimes we go pants less.

I actually really dislike pants, but I think we have really figured out what are our skills, what are our, you know, the areas where we enjoy taking the lead a little bit more, and we've carved out roles for ourselves in the business and in our personal lives where, like, we each take the lead in different areas. I think we're a really good team in that way.

Oh, yeah. I mean, well, for example, we are about to leave on vacation for two weeks tomorrow, and I challenge any of you to come see us at the airport and tell me that Vanessa's wearing the pants.

That's very true.

I challenge you. In the midst of. Of traveling halfway around the world, I wear all the pants.

I am pantsless at the airport.

Yep. I'm calling the shots, and Vanessa's listening to me.

So, yeah, I mean, we each wear the pants in different areas, but I get really frustrated sometimes when I see stuff like this, because we as a society still have so far to go when it comes to women and women having any sort of confidence, power, agency. Like, we just go to this place, like, oh, well, she must wear the pants in the relationship.

Well, it's like, a flawed question because it's hard. The pants. As if there are only one pair of pants that only one person can ever wear at a time.

We got two pairs of pants.

That's not how life works. We both have tons of pairs of pants. We just don't like wearing them very much.

Yeah. So I think it's. There's a real judgment and stereotype of, like, oh, if a woman is confident or if she expresses herself, then she must be, you know, bossy and domineering. There were a bunch of other comments that were actually, like, much harsher than this. Like, Vanessa's domineering, and she's very, very, like, strict. Yeah, there was one strict.

Strict.

I was like, am I, like, a teacher?

I could get into this fantasy bad boy. You know what? We might actually have to, for the first time, pause the podcast and play this out a little more. Just kidding. Well, I mean, I think, though, like, one thing to say, like, if we're talking about if there is, like, in this theoretical example where there's, like, one pair of pants to wear, I think, you know, when it comes to our business, like, Vanessa obviously is the trained and educated one in the, you know, in the kind of content area that we focus on. So from that perspective, I do defer a lot to Vanessa's expertise in, you know, kind of, like the therapy and the sex therapy world. I definitely have a lot of knowledge from being on this ride with her for the past number of years, but I'm never going to pretend to be, like, the level of expert that she is. And so, you know, what you might perceive in someone following us and our work and our business is that, you know, in that regard, you might. You might pick up on that as, oh, it looks like Vanessa wears the pants. Because I am deferential to her in many of the sort of, like, content areas because she is the expert. I want to make sure that, like, I'm saying, you know, I'm saying something that actually makes sense from a like. Like, psychological or therapeutic perspective. Right, babe? So, yeah, that gets at. There are multiple pairs of pants to wear. There are different areas of life where each of us takes a little more of the lead or a little less of the lead. And I think we both feel really comfortable with that. And that's one of the reasons why probably our relationship looks so good, because we do that pretty seamlessly, but it's taken us a long time to be able to do that seamlessly.

I will say also, there are certain areas of life where I really enjoy Xander wearing the pants, and I do. I really enjoy being submissive and letting someone else take over. So I'm not a. Yeah, it's not like I'm, like, I'm gonna Share the pants with Xander. God damn it. Like, I actually really enjoy.

Let me in those pants.

Not having my pants sometimes. Okay. But let's go to the other end of this. Xander is a feminine man.

I don't really know what that means. I mean, I am the man that I identify as a man. I'm the man that I am. I'm happy with who I am and the person that I am. I don't know. What do you.

I think. I think that sometimes people are a little rude about this question and they assume, like, because you're a man who is in touch with his emotions, who can express himself, that, like, you're more. I think they're saying feminine as an insult.

Oh, yeah, Yeah, I think so, too.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, there were other ones that were like, you know, Xander's a simp kind of thing. So I think it's meant to be an insult. And I think there's. This is another shitty gender dynamic thing that comes up to, like, oh, any man who is able to speak about his emotions must be feminine.

Yeah, I mean, I guess, like, I'll take that as a compliment, though, because I, you know. Yeah. I am in touch with, I think, both the masculine and the feminine. And that works for me.

I'd say the same for me. Like, I feel like I have a very healthy relationship with my masculine side, very healthy relationship with my feminine side. And I think that that is difficult for people to see sometimes. Like, they just want to see a pure masculine man or a purely feminine woman. And I think that actually a lot of our ideas and stereotypes of, like, what masculinity is and what femininity is, are actually incredibly feminine. Flawed and toxic and dangerous.

Yeah, I mean, I guess, yeah, when you put it that way of, like, oh, just a purely masculine man. Like, I. I don't have a desire to be like that. That sounds. That sounds exhausting and, like, not very fulfilling to me. Okay, our next one is you come from well off families and have never struggled with money or you're rich.

That was one of the most frequent responses in the question box. So this. The idea of, like, where we came from, our backgrounds, our struggles, like, this is absolutely false. So I come from a family of dirt poor immigrants who really had to struggle to make it work and have, you know, actually created beautiful, beautiful lives for themselves.

But, yeah, and like, in each generation, each successive generation of your family has bettered themselves.

But, like, my grandma was a strawberry picker in the fields. Like, we were not, you know, she was not A wealthy family. My mom did not grow up wealthy. And my immediate family, like, we grew up in. In Santa Barbara, which is definitely, you know, California in general is a pretty well off state overall. But my family, you know, was just very solidly middle class. We definitely had financial strain. Both of my parents, like, owned their own small businesses. There were definitely lean years. They, you know, we grew up, like, clipping coupons and learning, you know, the importance of, like, saving money. And yeah, it was definitely, like, not. We never wanted for anything. Like, there was never a struggle to, like, put food on the table or anything like that. But we also didn't have, like, super nice things. And I mean, one of the most. Actually, one of the most traumatizing experiences of my childhood in relation to money was when I got into Brown, my dream school. This was like. I'd been working on this for years, having this dream. Like, my mom completely broke down, cried for that was only the second time I'd ever seen her cry in my life.

When she saw, like, kind of like.

The bill, what the bill is gonna be, and she said, we can't afford this. Like, you're gonna have to go to community college and, like, maybe see if you can transfer. And I lost it. Like, that was so scary and hard for me.

Well, I mean, that's gotta be just, like, a crazy experience because that's after you've already got.

I did all the work.

Yeah. And it's like, wait. Like, wait, if I had known this up front, that would have changed where I would have applied to. Like, at that point, you were probably too late to, like, get into, like, a UC or something.

Yeah. And then, you know, Xander and I together, like, we definitely have had money struggles. There was another one that was like, you guys never fight about money. That's not true at all. Like. Like, when I went back to grad school to get my degree in counseling psychology, you know, we. That was really difficult for us to go from. You know, both of us had been making incomes to now just relying on Xander's income. And not only that, but we're racking up grad school debt from me. So that was, like, very stressful. We had a lot of, like, disagreements about money and stresses around it. So that's been a part of our story, too. But I do think, like. Like, there's so much interesting stuff that comes up around money. Like, there's so much judgment that comes up around it as well. And so, you know, now we are at the point where, you know, we've spent God when did we start this? I basically started this business in like, 2014. It wasn't really until 2016 that, like, this iteration of it or even 2020, but, like, I've been, you know, some form of this business for a decade and we have built up to the point where we are comfortable now, where.

We have a really great life, a very successful business.

And I think that's really fucking cool that, like, for me, for my side of it, you know, that I can be this generation that's like. Like you were saying, each generation has done better and better and to be this like kind of American dream story. I think that's really fucking cool. I think it's really cool that we have made money by helping people and by really focusing on having a business with integrity, with value, with heart. Like, we have never gone into this with like. Like, let's see how much money we can make. How badly can we rip people off? Like, we've actually. We've lowered prices on things. We've had, you know, way lower prices than other people doing similar kinds of things have. We have also been able to use our, like, the money that we've made to hire a team to, like, support other families and pay them incredibly well and, you know, make their livelihoods, like, make jobs. And we've donated a shit ton of money to charity, which I'm super, super proud of, that we take, like a certain portion of our revenue and give that straight to charity. So, like, we've done really incredible things with money. Like, obviously there are a lot of shitty people in the world doing really shitty things with money, but money in and of itself is not evil. Like, when good people have money, they can do incredible things with it. And I think we. I'm really proud of what we've done with our money and the relationship that we have with money.

Yeah, me too. Me too. And yeah, similar. Similar to Vanessa or maybe sort of similar to Vanessa. I would say now that, you know, in hindsight, looking back, my family was probably upper middle class. Like, I never was aware of any, like, struggle with money. We definitely did not have unlimited money. Like, I was limited in the things that I was allowed to have and get. And I definitely had friends that. But we were very much like, you know, obviously.

I mean, you didn't grow up fancy.

No, I didn't grow up fancy.

You grew up in the woods? In a cabin in the woods.

I did grow up in a house. A house in the woods. But no, I mean, I. Looking back, I have a lot of gratitude. I Feel, like, really lucky to have, you know, had the. Had the life that I had. And, you know, and I don't take that lightly. Like, I, you know, like Vanessa said, I think, you know, for us, we have a successful business, and it's really important to both of us to, you know, do good things with the. With the good money that. That we make. That's, you know, that's kind of like. That's the deal when. When you do. When you make good money, you got to do good things with it. And I think that's kind of the way that we like to live our lives.

All right, and our last assumption. Sometimes you pause the podcast to argue.

Ha ha. We. We have paused the podcast before.

We have also not paused the podcast to argue. Yeah, I mean, some, like, weird. Yeah, some weird, snippy moments on the podcast with each other that only our podcast editor will ever hear.

I mean, that's. That's the reality of, like, you know, two people with two ideas for how they're doing things like coming together, trying to merge those visions or those ideas, and sometimes it's not perfect.

Yeah. I mean, we've had, like. I mean, we've had random arguments where, like, one person will say something the other didn't like, and then it just, like. But then they'll say, like, oh, I don't like the way you do that. And then the other person will be like, their feelings will get hurt. So just kind of, like dumb little snippy things like that. We've also had times where someone has said something personal that, like, the other person was like, I don't want that in there. And we've had. Maybe we've had a couple, like, solid fights where we had to, like, turn off the podcast completely. We didn't even let our podcast editor hear that. We, like, completely restarted. I think there was, like, one time that we didn't even do it that day because we were just.

Yeah, I think so. I think I maybe remember which one that was, but. Yeah, that. That's exactly what I was gonna say. They're very few and far between, but, yeah, there have been one or two situations where, you know, someone inadvertently opened a can of worms.

All right, well, you have made a lot of assumptions about us, and now we are going to turn it back on you.

Oh, okay.

We assume that you're ready to start connecting more deeply with your partner and learning to love them more fiercely, because.

Who wouldn't want that?

So we wanted to share with you something that we recently created and released it's called you best week ever. Because we have so many people reaching out to us who say, like, we really love your approach to relationships. We looked at your website. Everything looks great. Like, we just don't know where to start or feeling intimidated too. Like, I want to have deeper intimacy, I want to feel closer to my partner, but I just don't know how to actually get there. So we created something that is the perfect starting point that'll ease you into having epic intimacy in your relationship, but in a way that feels approachable, that feels simple, feels easy. And the best part is it only takes like five to ten minutes a day. Well, actually, the best part might be that it is only $29. This is actually what we were talking about with the whole money thing. Like, we really aim to make our resources as accessible as possible. We have a variety of different price points, but for this we thought, you know what? We want to have something where everybody who listens to our podcast comes to our Instagram, comes to our website that, like, just about anybody could afford having this great, like, relationship reset, a jump start. Help you and your partner get the tools you need to have incredible intimacy inside and outside of the bedroom. So head on over to vmtherapy.com best to check that out and we will also put a link in the show notes for you.

Well, that's all for today's episode of Pillow Talks. Thank you so much for listening. Join us again next week when we answer the big question, should you put up with this? In the bedroom.

There's an airplane outside. Dogs don't lose their shit. It's another song for art. Don't get to the airplane song. Airplane song. Distract the dog with the airplane song. Do go back to it. So.