EPISODE 176: Is This Cheating?

Yeah. Okay. You know, I think you have convinced me. But I wouldn't call it. It's not like cheating. Like, it's cheating if you go to lunch with this person and then you go hook up with them. But I think that it's like, it's just like, it's a questionable situation. Why would you want to put yourself in that situation in the first place?

Hello and welcome to the Pillow Talks podcast. We're your hosts, Vanessa and Xander Marin. I'm a sex therapist with over 20.

Years of and I'm just a regular dude. We share the ups and downs in our relationship while giving you step by step techniques for improving yours.

Make sure you subscribe for your weekly double date full of totally doable sex tips, practical relationship advice, hilarious and honest stories of what really goes on behind closed bedroom doors, and so much more. It's the sex education you wish you'd had. Is it cheating to stay in touch with an ex?

Ooh.

Is it cheating to have a co worker that you call your work wife or your work husband and you act like it too? Is it cheating to follow hot girls on Instagram?

You know who we're talking about?

We are going there in today's episode. We're talking about a big, big question. Cheating. We're not talking about, like, the obvious stuff like, is it cheating to put my penis into another person who's not my partner? Obvious.

But what we're talking about today, assuming that's your arrangement. Yeah, your arrangement, or that's not your arrangement.

What we're talking about today is some gray areas where it's not totally clear.

Usually gray areas are where we don't talk about them very openly. So we all end up having different ideas of what really is okay and not okay.

So we turned to our Instagram community, we put up a question box and we said, we're doing an episode called is this cheating? Let us know. Are you in a scenario? Has your partner done something or have you done something that feels like a gray area? You're wondering, like, does this count as cheating or not? And I gotta say, we were flooded with responses. I really hope you guys like this episode because we had so many submissions, so many different scenarios we could go over. It was really tough to pick just a handful to share today. So if you like this, we can make a whole lot more are of these episodes. So before we get into the actual scenarios, first we need to say there really isn't any, like, hard and fast rule about cheating. Like, cheating is something that every couple needs to talk about. And they need to create their own boundaries and talk openly about, like, this is okay with us. This is not okay with us. Like, there are no just universal rights and wrongs here. And for some couples, not only are certain things like they don't feel like cheating, but they actually might feel exciting to each other. So in this episode, like, we're giving you our hot takes, but we always like to say, you know, we respect everybody's right to make their own rules and their own relationships. We think that this is something that couples should talk openly about. And we really hope that this episode can be a great conversation opener between you and your partner. Like, listen to the episode together. After we read over the scenario, pause the episode, and have a conversation with each other and say, like, yeah, do you think that counts as cheating? How would you feel in that situation? I think this can be a great way to, like, start talking more openly about that. Then there was also this comment that we got that I wanted to read because I thought it was really interesting someone sent to us about cheating and gray areas. I'm really curious and nervous about the difference in emotional closeness between friendships with men and with women. It seems like the baseline level of emotional vulnerability and warmth between female friends is wildly different to what usually exists between men. I used to work with a lot of women, and lots of them became good friends. I miss that dynamic. I'm also terrified of developing a close, warm friendship with a woman and being accused of emotional cheating if a kind of friendship is available to my partner without the risk of it looking suspicious. But not to me. It feels like a big cultural double standard, I guess. I don't even know what the term emotional infidelity means. I'd love it if you could dive into some of that in the episode. And this was from a man. So he's saying, like, I. You know, I see my female partner having these, like, really close, intimate, emotional relationships with other women. I want to have those kinds of relationships as well. But, like.

And he's had them in the past.

Yeah, but, like, I'm worried that that reads as, like, emotional cheating. So, Xander, what do you think emotional infidelity means?

Oh, this is such. Well, God, before we even get to that question. I mean, God, like, this has me thinking about. This has me thinking about my own relationships with people. Because, I mean, in a way, I relate with this. I relate with this guy in terms of, like, when I have been single in the past, I've definitely had more closer friendships with women and definitely had a You know, a number of friendships where it felt like, yeah, like I. I have a. Yeah, like a closer friendship, I guess, than maybe with other men, but definitely, you know, not like in any kind of like, romantic relationship. And. Yeah, and I guess, like, my reality has been that as, you know, when I have gotten into relationships and, you know, as I've been married and stuff like that, you know, those type of much closer emotional relationships with women kind of tend to fade away. And I guess part of it may be that it feels like, oh, well, like my. My needs for female emotional closeness are being met by my partner, by my wife.

Do you think that happened in our relationship? Did you have close female friends that you drifted away from when we started dating?

No, not. I mean, I think, like, I probably had like one. I probably had like one kind of like, like a work. A work friend. Um, but I think the reality was around the time we started dating, like, she also started dating somebody else. And then it was just sort of.

This, like, you both kind of drifted.

Yeah, we both kind of drifted away.

I mean, this also brings up a really just interesting point about gender and socialization in general. Like, women are given so much more permission to be like, emotional creatures and to have these very, like, vulnerable, intimate relationships with each other, whereas men, like, you're not allowed to, like, it's. It's gay. You know, I'm putting that in quotes because we don't think that that's an.

Insult or a problem or it's just like, feminine.

Yeah, it's not. Yeah, it's not masculine. Like, you're not supposed to like, cry in front of your dude friends. Even things like physical touch. Like I touch my girlfriends so much. Like hugs and like snuggles and stuff like that. And like, guy friends don't touch each other. Right. So it's like there's this level of emotional intimacy that so many men are missing in their lives in general. And it makes sense that they end up creating that more often with women than with men. And so, of course, in straight relationships, then that can feel really tricky to navigate where your partner's like, wait, hold on, who's this work wife that you have? Like, work wife? That even, you know, that even sounds weird.

Yeah, we're like, yeah, why do you seem so much closer to her than you do to anybody else?

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Haha. Yeah. That's a good one.

So if you, like, let's, you know, let's imagine you have Jessica. You're like close female friend Jessica.

Oh, hi, Jessica.

If the three of us are hanging out and you are, you know, opening up to her and talking to her and giving her a hug and, you know, whatever it is, and I'm there, versus, like, if the two of you are alone and you're acting in a different way, or you're alone and you're thinking, if Vanessa was here, like, she would probably be uncomfortable with me doing that or I wouldn't do this in front of her. Like, I think that's the, that's the litmus test for me.

Yeah. I mean, I'd also add to that. And this is tricky. I don't know if I can make this a hard and fast rule, because there's always going to be, like, moments of exception. But I think in general, if you are in a serious romantic relationship with someone, then there's an expectation that you have a certain level of, like, emotional vulnerability with them, that you are in that because you are looking for physical and emotional needs to be met by that person. Right. That's not to say that you can't have other emotional relationships with people where those people also meet similar emotional needs. Right. But I think that if you are neglecting certain emotional needs or certain, like, emotional, I don't know, topics or something with your romantic partner, but then you are indulging those or getting those from somebody else, I think that that is. You're probably on the path towards emotional infidelity. Like, you're like, oh, I'm avoiding these types of emotional topics. Or I'm. I'm. I'm trying, you know, I'm, like, kind of putting up walls with my romantic partner and like, oh, I don't want to talk about this stuff. But then you're going to somebody else to do that. That's not to say that you can't go to a friend and talk about something tough, but I think in general, you know, it's like, if you are. I mean, a really simplistic example would be physical things. Like, if you were like, oh, yeah, well, I don't want to be physical with my romantic partner, so I will go get my physical needs met somewhere else. That is very obviously cheating. I'm trying to kind of transpose that into emotional terms. If it's like, you know, yeah, I, like, don't want to have any deep conversations with my wife because I don't. I don't like deep conversations. But then I'm going and going, going to my best friend who's a girl and having all these deep emotional conversations. Like, what. What's going on there? Like, there's a disconnect. There's. There's some type of. Of you are not being faithful to the idea that, like, hey, I'm in a romantic relationship where there's an assumption that we are having a certain level of emotional exchange.

Yeah. I mean, there's. We could do a whole episode just about this topic, but I want to move on to the scenarios. But if you have any thoughts about this whole dynamic around male and female friendship or any great definitions of what emotional infidelity or emotional cheating means, come on over to Instagram. We're at Vanessa and Xander. And so let's get into the scenarios. Xander, what is your hot take on this one? Is it cheating to keep nudes from past relationships?

Is it Che. Oh, God.

I'll give you another out, too. We can say, is it cheating? And you could also say, like, is it okay or not okay?

I mean, look, my hot take in general is, why do you need to keep nudes from somebody in the past when you are in a new relationship? Like, why do you really need to do that? I mean, I have very little to go on. From experience. I think that I. There was one partner in the past that I did have some nude photos from, and when I broke up with her, like, I didn't want that. Like, there was. It wasn't. It wasn't sexy to look at those. In fact, it felt kind of gross. Like, not that she was gross, but just like, yeah, like, I'm not in a relationship with this person. I don't want to be in a relationship with this person. Why do I want to be looking at naked pictures?

But some people end relationships amicably.

Yes.

And there's, like, you know, some fond.

Memories of that person, fond memories of their naked body. I mean, I don't know. Keep it to your. Keep it to your imagination. I would say, like, look, this is a conversation that I think is a good thing. A good conversation to have around the, like, kind of defining the relationship or when you are talking about getting serious. Like, okay, what does this mean? Are we getting off dating apps? Are we, you know, deleting old nudes from past partners? Because, I mean, God, the reality is nudes are such more of a thing now than they were when I don't.

Have any past partners. And I feel like I really am missing out. So if you're my ex boyfriend and you're listening to this, please send me nudes.

Please send nudes. We'll both look at them.

I really don't. Like, it wasn't a thing when I was dating.

Yeah, it was challenge the one person where we sent a couple back and forth. You know, it was like a study abroad situation. And it took a little work to make those pictures happen and the bandwidth to send them back and forth around the world. But, yeah, I mean, I.

So I say, like, I don't think you need to completely erase all the evidence of another person. Like, I want people to end relationships on amicable terms. I want people to, like, have fond memories looking back on each other, and I don't feel the need to. Like. Like, it doesn't threaten me that you've dated people in the past and I don't need to like, I don't need to like put blinders on and pretend like nobody else ever existed before me.

But you don't need a very sexual visual reminder of that.

Yeah, that's what I was going to say is like, I don't think you need to throw out like every single photo or letter or, you know, shirt that they bought you or anything like.

That, but like every picture of you on social media.

Yeah, I do think nudes feel a bit too far for me and but I do think it depends on relationship. Like we're married, we've been together forever. I'm like, yeah, you're with me for life, buddy. Like, throw away those photos versus like if we were, you know, six months into dating, I'm like, yeah, well, you know, we still might break up. So like you could hang on to those if you wanted. There are some things in life that are okay to be a total crapshoot, like a cheap Instagram ad, impulse buy or rolling the dice on a new workout class. But finding the right doctor should not be a total crapshoot. And with ZocDoc, it's not. Because you've got more options than you know. ZocDoc is a free app and website where you can search and compare high quality in network doctors. Choose the right one for your needs and click to instantly book an appointment. We're talking about in network appointments with more than 100,000 healthcare providers across every specialty from mental health to dental health, eye care to skin care, and much more. You can filter for doctors who take your insurance, are located nearby, who are a good fit for any medical need you may have, and who are highly rated by verified patients. You can also see their actual appointment openings. Choose a time that works for you and click to instantly book a visit. Plus, Zocdoc appointments happen fast, typically within just 24 to 72 hours of booking. You can even score same day appointments. The next time we need a doctor. We are definitely turning to Zocdoc. So stop putting off those doctor's appointments and go to zocdoc.compillow to find and instantly book a top rated doctor today. That's Z O c d o c.com pillow zocdoc.com/pillow I mean have some nice memories.

This, this has gotten my question about nudes is like when you're sending nudes to someone nowadays and I mean help me out people listening because I just haven't been in this situation. Like when you're sending nudes to someone, What. How are you thinking about them in the future? Are you thinking, like, hell, yeah. To who? The person who I'm sending these to, like, hold onto these forever and always? Or are you thinking, like, okay, this is, like, fun and sexy now, but, like, I sure hope that, like, when we stop hooking up or they get married to somebody else, that, like, they get rid of these or something. I don't know. I'm just curious. Like, what? Or like, if you were in a relationship with someone and you guys sent a bunch of nudes back and forth, how would you feel knowing that they got into another relationship and, like, they're holding onto those or they're looking at them actively, like, how would you feel about that? I mean, I feel like this is. I mean, there's some responsibility, like, these days when you break up with someone. Of like, okay, should we delete?

Respectful.

Yeah, like, to, like, I'd like you.

To delete broken up. Let's delete.

Yeah, like, I'd like to delete the. I'd like you to delete the photos I sent you. Please do not. Like, I don't want you sending those to anyone. I don't want you showing those to anyone. Or, you know, maybe even the decision together of, like, you know, hey, I. I'm going to delete all our stuff on social media because is, like, too painful for me to look at or something like that. I mean, that would be great. But then, yeah, it's also, once you get into that serious, committed relationship with someone, I think it's time to talk about, hey, I've got some stuff from the past. Like, how do you feel about that?

I also think there's a big difference with how actively you're keeping what how actively the word keeping means. So, like, if you're looking at the photos, I would say that's definitely cheating. But if. If, for example, like, Xander looks at my phone and he's, like, scrolling back years to, like, find some old photos, there's another squirrel. They're, like, really interested. They're literally right outside of our window. If he was looking at my phone and found an old photo of a boyfriend, and I was like, oh, fuck. I, like, had no idea that was there.

I didn't know that Icloud history went all the way back.

Yeah. I don't think that he could accuse me of cheating. Then it could just be like, oh, shit, I didn't know I had that. Let me delete.

Yeah. Now, if I found, like, a thousand of them, that might be different. A different story.

Okay, let's move on to our next scenario. This is over a year ago now, but I found out my partner was using a sex toy that has an interactive app allowing you to talk with and control or be controlled by other users. My partner swears he never used the interactive feature, but would it be considered cheating if he did? To me, it feels way too intimate to let someone else into our sex life that way. Xander, Hot take. Is letting a stranger control your interactive sex toy app cheating?

What are we talking about? Like, basically, like, is letting a stranger jack you off? Is that what we're talking about here?

Yeah, basically.

Yeah, I think so.

I think so too. For sure.

Yeah. I mean, unless somehow both of you are like, yeah, no, we're totally into this. It feels like enough layers of separation. We don't know who the person is. We think that's super hot, and we like knowing that we're doing that. Then, hell yeah.

I think this is the perfect example of something that to some couples could be like, absolutely cheating. Feel so violating, and to other couples be like, oh, that's actually really sexy. But probably to most stranger on the Internet.

But, yeah, that's probably to most couples, it's. It's. Yeah, I mean, like, you wouldn't. I mean, it's just like, change it to real life. Like, okay, yeah, it's through a toy, but, like, the intention is that somebody is, like, jacking you off, basically. And, like, would you be okay with somebody doing that in real life, like, using their hand? If you're not okay with that, then it's like, okay, well, like, I don't know. What if they're like, using a glove? It's not actually their hand. And like, that's still probably not okay. And it's like, okay, so then what if they're doing that, like, effectively with a digital glove, like, through the Internet? Like, yeah, that's also probably not okay.

Yeah. Okay, Next one old high school best friend. We are both married now and have seen each other maybe two times in the past 15 years. We communicate sporadically through text as adults. He expressed in a text conversation that he used to be in love with me and still has feelings of love for me. I didn't reciprocate, by the way. He's in town visiting next month and asked if we could meet up for lunch. My husband is very against it and thinks it's inappropriate.

Oh, boy. Like this. This I think is really starting to get into gray area.

I don't know if I Agree with that. Why do you say that?

Well, I mean, it's getting into gray area in that, like, no, I would say, no, it's definitely not cheating if you go to lunch with this person. I do think. What?

I disagree. I'll hear you out.

It's like, not cheating, but it doesn't feel, like, awesome where it's like, you know, this person is in love with you. If they're in love with you, why are they wanting to have lunch with you? Other than in some hopes that, like, perhaps they can help you fall back in love with them too. Unless this person is like, has told you that in the past and now they're like, you know what? Like, I'd like, I'd love to, like, have lunch with you maybe to, like, get some closure. I want to, like, move on from this whole thing. I guess as I'm talking about it, it feels a little. It feels a little icky. Yeah. Okay. You know, I think you have convinced me that. But I wouldn't call it. It's not like, cheating. Like, it's cheating if you go to lunch with this person and then you go hook up with them. But I think that it's like, it's just like, it's a questionable situation. Why would you want to put yourself in that situation in the first place?

Yeah, I wouldn't necessarily say that going to lunch is cheating.

You will have cheated on me if you do that.

I just think it's not an okay thing to do. Like, your ex is still in love with you. Like, I don't think this is meant to be just a friendly lunch. Like, even if I'm not saying the ex is like this totally malicious person going into it. Like, I'm going to try to break them up, but there's at least some part of them that is wishing and hoping. Like, it sure would be nice if their relationship ended and they were still in love with me. So it's just like, there's nothing good that can come of this. And it sounds like, oh, wait, shit, hold on. I just realized I read this wrong. They're old best friends. They're not exes.

Yeah, but. But in a way, it doesn't matter because the person has expressed, I was in love with you, and I still am. Yeah, but I mean, the other question that just came up to me is the person writing in is saying it's their former best friend. They've seen each other two times in the last 15 years. They don't even communicate that much. You're not that Close to them. So why do you want to. Like, why do you want to see them? It's like, like. And why do you want to see them knowing that how you feel about each other is wildly mismatched?

What you could do, if you really want to see this person is you could say super clearly to them, like, hey, I would like to see you to catch up, but I want to be super clear. Like, I'm happily married. I, you know, appreciate your vulnerability and sharing your feelings with me, but I don't reciprocate that. I, you know, I don't, like, if you're trying to go to lunch with me to, like, try to win me over, then I don't want to go. Or you could also say, like, sure, why don't you bring your partner and I'll bring my partner, and all four of us can get together that way. It's like, again, super clear. Like, this isn't going anywhere.

But I think, oh, yeah, that's a. That's a good suggestion.

Yeah.

I forgot that it says they're both married. Yeah, it. Yeah, it should be like, look like we could get together. But also things like, why would you want to get together as couples knowing that they're in love with you? It's just a bad idea. It's a bad idea in general. Nothing. I don't see anything positive now. If. If this were, like, hey, we were best friends. We talk all the time. We still, you know, like. Like, I'm getting something out of this relationship, even though this person feels differently for me than I feel for them, or, you know, like, we miss each other so much. But that's not what this sounds like. So.

Yeah. Okay. Xander, is it cheating to accept a drink from someone at the bar?

Since. Since I love drinking at bars so much.

Okay, you can. You can ask me instead.

Vanessa, what about accepting a drink from someone at a bar?

I. I say this is not cheating. I think that's fine to accept a drink. Like, I think it's okay sending somebody a drink and offering to pay for it and then expecting that they're gonna make out with you or fuck you in return. Like, that's fucked up. That's gross and weird. So I think, like, just accepting a drink and you don't know. Like, sometimes people are just being, you know, friendly. Hey, you know, send one to the. My friend down here. That's fine.

Send one to my friend down here.

I don't know.

Vanessa's clearly not.

Saloon or something.

Vanessa's clearly not spending very much time at bars either.

I don't know, like people, people sometimes will pay for drinks for each other without it being like a sexual thing. But yeah, most of the time if you're accepting the drink and like winking and like, come over here and chat with me, like, that's not okay. But just like, if, okay, if this is a scenario, you're sitting at the bar, the bartender comes up and said, here's this drink, the gentleman at the end sent it to you, that's fine to just like grab it.

But if it's like, I'm disagree, I'm finding myself disagreeing. That one is super weird. Honestly. I think that is super weird when it's like the bartender is like that person down there. Because then what that, like what that is beneath the surface is if you accept, then they're going to come over and talk to you.

Well, that's okay if they want to talk to you. But then you're just like. That's when you say, I'm in a relationship or I'm married or whatever.

Yeah, yeah. I mean, I guess so. I feel like there's shades of this though, where it's like, okay, but like, okay, I just kind of get yourself a free drink. I have questions, though. I have questions. In this case, okay, you're. You're in a committed, serious relationship. You're married. Okay. One, what are you doing, like alone in a bar, sitting there, hanging out.

You're on a work trip.

Okay. And like, okay, okay, you're alone, you're at the bar. Oh, okay. All right. I mean, I don't know, man. I feel like, okay. I feel like there's some, there's some major, there's some gray areas here or shades of gray.

It's a little gray.

But if you're with friends and your friends meet another group of friends and you meet another group. Okay. Yeah, you're okay. A couple girls are together and they meet a couple guys who are together and like, you know, that group of guys is like, oh, like, we'll get a round of drinks for you or something like that. I feel like at that. Then it's like, okay, if you guys are hanging out together, you don't need to be like, oh, I'm married. I have to say, no, you cannot buy that drink. Take, you know, subtract one from the order, because I can't. If I touch that, it's cheating. Like, that starts to feel a little weird. But then if it's like a one on one situation, I'm not saying it's cheating. I don't think it's cheating. I do think it's kind of like the last one, though, where it's like, okay, but, like, why are you going to lunch with this person?

I just think, like, yeah, if somebody, you know, brings you the drink and they're like, oh, can I get to know you? Or whatever, then. Yeah. And if you're, like, talking to them, yeah, that's weird. But I think if you say, hey, thank you for the drink. I'm in a committed relationship, but, like, happy to, you know, chat as. Get to know each other as friends. Why am I. Why are all my scenarios so social?

I'm happy, happy to talk about our hobbies. What hobbies do you do?

Clearly, I'm not sitting at a lot of bars myself.

Other than sitting alone at bars drinking, what do you like to do outside of drinking alone? Wow. Honestly, you're making me sound a lot more sane right now.

I'm just saying the actual. I think people can offer to buy each other drinks in a fucking friendly manner, and I think it's okay to accept a drink, but be very clear about the fact that you are not entertaining any sexual advances. There we go. Okay, fair enough.

Sure.

So I'm happy to accept this drink, but I just want to be clear that I'm in a committed relationship.

Yeah, tell me. His friends tell me, Tell me that. That both of us don't drink. Without telling. Telling me that both of us don't drink.

Okay, let's move on to the next one.

Secretly masturbating.

I do not think this is cheating. I think that everybody is entitled to their own relationship with their own body. In general, I advocate for people talking openly about masturbation. Like, I. You're allowed to be in a committed relationship and still have a relationship with your own body and masturbate. And I think masturbating is a great way to, like, balance out mismatched sex drives for you to continue exploring your sexuality and like, what you like, what your body responds to. So I'm pro masturbation in relationships. I would prefer that people talk about it openly, but I also don't think there's anything wrong with doing it and not telling you. Like, you don't have to announce it every single. I am going to masturbate right now. Of course, this can become problematic if you're prioritizing masturbating over connecting with your partner. So, like, you're always turning your partner down, or you're never initiating with your partner, but you're spending a lot of time, like secret, secretly masturbating. That absolutely can be an issue.

But I think secretly could convey a variety of things here. Or like, if you're like, oh, no, I'm not, I'm not mad.

I secretly masturbate. I don't tell you every time. I do.

Yeah, but you also don't tell me. I don't like, I promise you I'm not masturbating. And then you do.

Yeah, but I'm secretly masturbating sometimes I'm secret masturbator.

Okay. Secrets. I like it.

So I know I. I don't think there's anything wrong with. Like again, it can totally. If I was doing every day or somebody was doing it every day and prioritizing it over their partner.

But like, but like hiding, like secret, like hiding. I feel like the word secretly kind of is a broad word. Like that could be like, I'm actively hiding it, I'm trying to deceive you, or I'm just doing it without your knowledge and you're not asking me about it.

Yeah, I mean, yeah, if there's some sort of like deception behind it, like you're consciously trying to, you know, of course that's weird. But I'm just. What I'm talking about more is like, you don't need to announce it every single time.

Okay, fair enough. I'm with you.

Okay.

All right. Vanessa, what about paying for only fans?

Okay. This was one of the most common responses that we got and we get asked about this like all the frickin time. And this again is a perfect example of something that is really going to vary from couple to couple. There are going to be plenty of couples that are not okay with this and there are going to be some couples that are totally fine or think it's maybe even hot. So for me personally, I do think there's a difference when you start paying for porn. And I think particularly with OnlyFans, there's a more personal relationship that you're having with the person that has the account. Like, you're more invested in that particular person versus, like, you know, you're just googling like porn on Google and like finding whatever random thing.

Is that how we're doing these things? I don't know, Google, find me porn chat, GPT. Where is the best porn?

So I do, like, again, everybody's gonna be different. But I think that this is something that, yeah, once you start paying for it and once you're having like a personal relationship with the person who's creating it for me. That does feel like cheating. Similarly, another one of the most common ones that we got was following or liking half naked women on Instagram. We all know the accounts that are like, you know, thirst traps. They're kind of verging on porn. Sometimes they just straight up are porn. I don't understand why these accounts are allowed to exist. And our educational account for couples in long term committed relationships is always freaking getting flagged on Instagram. It's very annoying. But yeah, this was probably the, like, the second most common response was, like, following these accounts or. Yeah, like, liking photos. Like the obvious thirst trapped photos. We only got asked about women. There apparently aren't very many men thirst trap accounts.

Oh, I'm sure there are. I am sure that there are.

We didn't get asked about it. The only one.

I. We see plenty of male cooking.

I was just about to say that there's that guy who's like a baker who makes a super over the top, like, he's spanking the dough and, like, fingering the fruit that goes into.

It's really, really, actually grosses me out.

Yeah, it grosses me out too, to be honest. Okay, so again, this is another one. You gotta talk about it in your individual relationship. There is no objective, like, right or wrong here.

Yeah. But unless. Unless, like, both of you are deriving a lot of, like, zing for each other out of this, my question is just like, why, like, why are you especially liking, like, the liking is so.

Why sad to me.

Yeah. What. What are you getting out of. What are you getting out of it?

Exactly?

Other than hoping to get validation from the person and then. And that. That is some emotional infidelity. Like, trying to get validation.

Yeah.

From, like, what are you hoping for?

That she's gonna, like, message you back and be like, thanks, daddy, for the. Like. You're making me so hot. I don't know if I've ever been this awkward in an episode. What is going on?

That was so good.

Making me so hot.

That's what. That's what every man is secretly. You crack the code. You crack the code. That is exactly, literally, word for word what every man is looking for when he likes a thirst strap. Thank you, daddy.

Start my own thirst trap account. It'll not have my face on it, but I'll just. Yeah. Anyways, let me stop being awkward. For me personally, this would feel like emotional cheating to me. Like, I would not be thrilled. No. And again, it's like, it's about the specificity of the person. Like, Knowing that there's this specific person that you're like, yes, I want to follow her. I want to see all of her half naked photos. Yes, I want to like, all of her photos. Like, that just doesn't feel very great to me. So I, yeah, I would not be comfortable with you. Not like, you, you. I. We haven't had to have a conversation about Instagram, but yeah, I would not feel comfortable with you following specific accounts and engaging with them as well. This feels like a lot of time. I think what often happens is like, a dude has been following a bunch of accounts and then he gets into a relationship and like, just doesn't bother to go through and unfollow them. I think that is the case sometimes. But it's just like, just get in your account.

Yeah. But then also, like, then they're in your feed. It's not like you can be like, oh, I didn't realize I was following these people. It's like, no, like, that influences your feed and all the content that you get and everything. So, yeah, I mean, I'd ask your ask yourself, what am I trying to get out of this? And. And like, get curious. Like, is there something that I feel like is missing sexually, romantically? Is there some zing that I'm looking for that I'm not getting in my relationship? How might I try to get that in my own relationship rather than getting it somewhere else? Because the reality is you might not be bringing your full self sexually into your relationship because you're having this other, more like exotic zing. Met elsewhere, so to speak.

I mean, for me, it is really specific about, like, a specific person. So if you follow, like, I don't know, Maxim or something like the Maxim Instagram account, where it's like they're posting a bunch of different pictures of women, you know, it's still like, okay, whatever. Really?

I feel kind of the same. Like, why, like, why would you. I just love Maxim, favorite magazine.

I don't know. Like, I objectively don't have an issue with you, like, watching porn. Like, I think that's fine. You're allowed to have your own relationship with your own sexuality. You're allowed to, like, get turned on by other things and other visuals. Like, that's okay. But to me, there is something about, like, when there's a specific person that you're really engaging with and you're developing that, like, parasocial relationship with. I mean, it would be the same thing if you're like, oh, here's my favorite porn star. And I Like, want to watch every video she makes or, like, you know, only follow her? Like, it's just this. Yeah. This connection that starts to feel uncomfortable versus, like, oh, Maxim has, like, hot photos. Or, you know, it's just like. Okay.

Yeah. I guess for me, it just keeps coming back to, though, like. But, like, why do you want to. It's like, I. Yeah, Like, I. I don't. Like, I. Yeah, I don't find myself wanting to do that because, like, I, like, I want to have that energy with you and, like, not. Not with somebody else. So even if you can, like, why should you? Is kind of like what I feel like.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Okay. Going to a strip club, is that in and of itself cheating? Okay, so again, another one here where it's like, obviously you have to have a conversation about it in your own relationship. We had somebody who said, like, getting a lap dance in a private room. I was clear that I was not okay with it before. That is absolutely cheating. You're like, I don't feel comfortable. And your partner does that anyways. 100%. That's cheating. But the. Just the act in and of itself of going to a strip club. Do you think that is cheating?

No, I wouldn't say it is cheating in and of itself. It's. If you take further actions, perhaps, then it starts to get into that cheating category.

I agree. I don't think a strip club is cheating, but again, it is the specificity with a. If there's like, one stripper that you're like, every Friday night going to see Dallas.

Hey, daddy, thanks for coming.

Get ready for your lap dance, then I think that starts to get weird. But I don't think strip club in and of itself, and I don't think a lap dance in and of itself is cheating.

Okay, but now there's some, like, gradations of this. Like, if you're like, if we're married, and I'm just like, hey, babe, I'm gonna just. Just go to the strip club by myself tonight.

That's weird.

Yeah. Like, my question is, why are you. Why. Why are you at the strip club? Are you at the strip club because. Yeah. You're with a bunch of friends and they dragged you there, or are you there, like. Yeah. To support your bachelor bro? Were you there, like, yeah. Or are you there because you were alone on a work trip and, like, yeah. Wanted to go to the strip club? Like, that's like, I'm not gonna be like, oh, it's a for sure cheating if you went by yourself. But, like, I'd be like, you got to get real honest with yourself, like, why. Why are you. Why are you making these decisions? Why are you doing this? So if you have a. If you're like, yeah, I know exactly why I'm doing this, then, like, I mean, the answer has to be, well, I, like, am not very happy, maybe with stuff that's going on in my relationship. I don't know. It just seems like there's no good answer to that where you're like, oh, yeah, I have five really great reasons for why I'm here alone paying for lap dances, and my wife is at home and has no idea about it.

It's true. Yeah.

I can't think of any real good reasons personally, but if you can send them my way, I'd love to know who they are.

The solution is go to the strip club together, because that can be very sexy.

Yeah. If you're both into that, then hell yeah.

Okay, now we have a whole category of things. The category is called co workers. This was, again, another one of the most popular responses. So we have. Here are three different examples that we got sent. Going to lunch with a co worker of the opposite sex. Kissing a co worker of the opposite sex on the forehead. And at a work retreat. The husband didn't stay in an assigned hotel room with a male co worker, but instead stayed in the room of a female co worker. He says, nothing happened. I feel icky.

Hmm.

Okay, so going to lunch with a co worker of the opposite sex, is that cheating? No, I agree.

If that is, I've done a lot of cheating in the past.

Kissing a co worker of the opposite sex on the forehead.

How did the co worker feel about this? I. I need. I feel like I gotta know a little weird. I feel like I gotta know the context.

Grown adults on the forehead when it's like, not your grandchild or something.

Yeah. I mean, this feels like something you do to a child.

Yeah.

To a friend, even. But, I mean, probably not cheating, but what type of kiss was it and how did it happen?

French kiss on the forehead.

That's weird.

What do you mean, what type of kiss? It's just a peck.

I don't know. Yeah, like, I mean, I wouldn't be.

Like, what if they're European? You know, all those Europeans in there?

Oh, and then you miss the cheek.

What about a cheek kiss? A European cheek kiss, Double cheek kiss.

I mean, I feel like that's like a cultural thing that you do. I feel like I've done that to multiple people. We lived in Europe. And they're certain, there's certain people that you kiss them on the cheek and you kiss them either once or twice, depending on where they're from.

I think a kiss on the cheek is fine and a kiss on the forehead is a little weird, but it's fine.

Yeah. That's why I'm saying like, what was the context? Was it like you went in for a kiss on the lips and they turned their head down and you landed on the forehead? Or is this just like, like, hey, I really care about you. Bye.

I feel like we need to do maybe a whole episode about like work spouses, but. Okay, here's the last one. The work retreat. He was supposed to stay with a male coworker, but instead he stayed in the fe. Female co workers room.

That is kind of icky. Just like weird. Yeah. Like you, you had a plan to stay with somebody else. Now I think it's a different story if, because I used to, when I used to work at Google, when we went on work retreats, it was two people to a room. And God, I can't even remember now, if you were allowed to have an.

Office, I would not feel comfortable with that.

What I'm saying is if it was like pre planned, like, hey, this is my, you know, oh, I'm gonna go, I'm gonna room with so and so because they're my friend and everyone is on board with that. It's all above board. Then. Yeah, I'm saying that's fine. But I think the thing with this one is that it's like you made a plan to stay with your male co worker and then you didn't. Like, what happened?

That's weird.

What, what happened and why.

But I, Yeah, I just don't think I would feel comfortable with you staying with a woman in your room. Like it just. And I realize that this gets like more complicated too with same sex couples as well. And it's not that like, you know, inherently any person of the opposite sex, like, you're just gonna be attracted to like reality or the likelihood is that you're not. But it. Sharing a room with somebody is just really intimate.

I mean, I like to sleep naked. At the very least I would be like, yeah, at the very least, like, I'd be in my underwear, but. And then it's like, yeah, I don't, it's just, I mean, maybe. Do we sound really prude right now?

Maybe? For sure, for sure we do.

I mean, I'm assuming they're separate beds.

Oh, if it's the Same bed? Hell, no. You're not sharing a bed with a co worker. My God, no.

On one of my Google retreats, I. I was sharing a room with, like, a male colleague, a friend, and we. It was so. It was like we had. We ended up in, like. I think it was. It was like Google, it was a huge retreat, and they, like, rented out the entire hotel or something like that, and we ended up. So that means that there were many configurations of rooms. We ended up in, like, a suite, but it was like a suite with just a king bed. And then I ended up. I ended up sleeping, like, on the. I got a cot or something like that. And it was just like. It's like. Yeah. Like, if it was one of my, like, best friends, I probably would. Like my college friends or something, I would have shared the bed with them. But it was like. It's like a work thing. I was like, I don't know. I'll just sleep on the couch.

I don't know. I'm kind of. I'm going back and forth on this one because it's like, if it was a female friend of yours that I knew.

Yeah. But that's. We're talking about if there was a plan for it.

Yeah.

If we talked about it in advance and.

Yeah, I think maybe I would be okay with that, but I don't know. No, it does feel. It's just. It's a very intimate thing to share a room with somebody. It just feels like a little. I wouldn't say it's cheating to do that, but it just feels a little uncomfortable.

Yeah, I'm. Well, I would totally validate this person. They say they feel icky. Yeah, you. Absolutely. It makes sense that you feel icky about that. This is super weird. Your husband said he was going to stay with someone else, and then he stayed with a different person.

Yeah. Okay, next one. This one was interesting, sending pictures of yourself to someone else. But the pictures are not nudes and they're not scantily clad. It's just like a photo of yourself.

Like a selfie.

Yeah.

Hey, what's up? You like me sending surf pics of myself to other people? If that's the case, I have definitely cheated.

I don't think this is cheating.

No, I don't think so either.

It's kind of funny that somebody like.

Yeah. Like, there's nothing suggestive, no concern.

What. What are your concerns if there's nothing. Yeah, they're not scantily clad. They're not nudes.

What's.

It's Just a selfie. Okay. Talking about our relationship issues with a friend of the opposite sex without me knowing. I'm assuming here that these are straight people. So it's like, yes, opposite sex. Talking about relationship issues.

I feel like what's tricky here is there's context missing. Like, what. How close of a friend is this? Is this, like, your longtime best friend? Or is it just, like, a random, like, you know, an okay friend of the opposite sex you've opened up to?

No, I think this is a perfect example for me of, like, switch the genders. Like, if you're not gonna get upset about. Let's, you know, let's say it's Xander. If I'm not gonna get upset about him talking to his dude friend about, you know, trying to get advice about our relationship issues. Like, I can't get upset about him talking to a female friend. I don't know. That just seems a little silly to me. And I think, again, this kind of goes back to that earlier question that we had about, like, you know, just a lot of men feel like they can have more intimate relationships with female friends than they can with male friends. So I think a lot of men are like, yeah, if I'm having some sort of relationship issue, I feel more comfortable taking it to a female friend. Like, if I take it to my dude friend, he's gonna be like, oh, yeah, whatever, bro.

Yo, that's tough, bro. Sometimes it goes like that.

Sometimes it's. It's sad. It's not men's faults. It's the socialization that you guys get. We're here to teach you more emotional intelligence. But, yeah, I don't think that's cheating.

Yeah. Now where it starts to become more of a personal judgment call, because, like, yeah, the reality is, you know, like, the person writing in wouldn't know about this, per se, but, like, okay, if I was having relationship issues with you, and I went and talked to one of my female friends about it, and, like, you know, maybe those issues keep going on, and I keep talking to her about it, and she starts saying to me, like, oh, like, I. I would never do that to you if we were together. Oh. Like, you know, if she starts giving you, like, personal, like, validation or, like, oh, God.

You start saying, like, I'm thinking about leaving her. What do you think I should do?

Yeah. Or she's like, oh, that's. That's messed up. She shouldn't do that. I. I never do that to people. Or, I would never say that if we were together. You know, when's If. If it starts to cross this line into, like, a comparative thing.

Yeah.

Then. Then I think that's on you to be like, hey, you don't feel like the right friend to be bringing this stuff to. You don't feel like an objective.

Yeah.

Friend. Like, it sounds like you are kind of positioning to make a move here, and that doesn't feel good.

Ex. This. This one cracked me up a little bit. Exchanging handwritten letters, platonic, that neither of our partners know we write.

Sounds like this person's a little worried. A little worried about this? Maybe it's been going on for a while.

Okay. I think.

Why don't your partners know?

Exactly. So just exchanging handwritten letters. So quaint. You guys are just as nerdy as I am. Exchanging handwritten letters, like, that's not cheating, but it is a little like, well, why don't your partners know that you write that?

Yeah. And why are you. And. And you're finding yourself a bit worried.

Yeah.

Huh. What might. What might this look like?

You gotta be honest with yourself. Are you veering into. This is not so great territory here?

Because. Yeah. You have to start considering what might this look like from the other side? What might this look like if my partner found my treasure trove of letters?

Your partner reading the letters. If you imagine your partner reading the letters and you're like, I don't like that, then that's probably veering into emotional cheating territory. But if you're like, yeah, no, my friend and I are just kind of dorky, and we like to write. Use our little quills and write by candlelight. Our platonic, handwritten letters, then there's. There's nothing wrong with that. All right, Xander. Reaching out to an ex via Instagram and rehashing past sexual experiences.

Cheating.

You're cheating. Don't do that. That's not good. That's not. Okay. No. Rehashing past sexual experiences.

Yeah, that's just a.

No.

No.

Okay. Our last one is a real doozy. And I actually read it incorrectly at first. I read it as him sending nudes to people I don't know. And at first I was like, yeah, I mean, him sending nudes to somebody who's not his partner, like, that's definitely cheating. But then I went back and I reread it, and it's actually him sending my nudes to people I don't know.

That is not only cheating. I think that that is probably illegal. Yeah. And, like, you could probably get him arrested for that and put in jail.

That is so not okay. On so many different levels. Like your nudes belong to you. You get to decide who does and doesn't see them. Him sending them without your clear explanation, explicit, enthusiastic consent is completely not okay. I was like, I. My mind was a little bit blown when I read that one.

Like, yeah, it's completely not okay. And also illegal. Yeah.

Is it cheating though?

Yes. Well, yeah, yeah, they're not his nudes. They are. It's true. It's. They're not. They're not his.

No, but he's. Yeah, he's trying to have some. A sexualized interaction with another person. He's not using his own material, he's using somebody else's. But it's still cheating. Yeah, it's cheating. It's illegal, it's wrong, it's bad, it's all the things it is.

Wow.

Great one to wrap up on.

Wow. Wow.

Okay, so like we said at the top, we have so many more scenarios. So please come on over to Instagram and let us know if you want a part two to. Is this cheating? We are at Vanessa and Xander. We'd love to hear from you. And if you're not following us already, definitely make sure to follow over there. We share all sorts of amazing content, a lot of fun polls and question boxes to help us build out these episodes. So we would love to connect with you on another platform too.

And if you love this episode, please do us a huge favor right now. Go to Apple Podcasts. Leave us a five star rating and a short review. Reviews help us so far in getting new people to listen to our podcast. They, they, sorry, they don't help us. So far they go. So I don't go so far. They go so far in getting our podcast, in fact, front of other people, showing that we are legit helping other people discover us, listen to us, get help from listening to our episodes. And we are so appreciative in advance of you leaving that review. We do a review of the week giveaway every week where we read one random review from the podcast. If you hear your review read, then you have won a free masterclass. All you need to do is DM us on Instagram, let us know that that was your review review and we'll get you hooked up. So this week's review of the week.

Without further ado, life changing material. Vanessa and Xander have seriously changed my life. No exaggeration. Between therapy, this podcast and the hard work that both have supported me doing, my level of happiness and quality of life is better than ever. I come from a Background of an abusive childhood. Mental, emotional, religious, sexual, you name it. Oh, man. The material you guys cover helps me feel so understood and like there's so much hope. I've gone from having zero sex drive and feeling like I could live without sex for the rest of my life to initiating almost daily, trying so many new things, talking openly in a healthy way about sex with my husband and kids, asking for what I need, and sincerely loving myself more. Oh, my God. Jesus is really good. I still have a lot of work left to do, but your thoughtful and intentional material has helped tremendously and will continue to be a part of my work. Keep it coming. It's the highlight of my week. Appreciate y' all so much. P.S. invest in the guides. They're worth it. Oh, my God.

Wow. This might be the best review we've ever gotten.

We don't read these before they go into the podcast. Like, our team member Emma picks them and plops them in. So they're little surprises for us every time we read them. And this is a really amazing one. I'm so freaking proud of you and all the work that you're doing that is seriously incredible, and I'm so honored to have been a part of your journey. So thank you so much for sharing that with us. Really appreciate it. And if you do want to check out our guides, you can go over to vmtherapy.com we'll put a link in the show notes straight to the courses page for you if you also want to do that. But yeah, thank you again for this amazing review.

All right, well, that's it for today's episode of Pillow Talks. Thank you so much for listening. Join us again next week when we talk about mutual masturbation without sending nudes or pictures or any of it with anybody else, Mutual only with your partner.