EPISODE 178: Tie-Breakers: We Solve Your Relationship Standoffs

Who is responsible for house chores if we both work? One, two, three.

Both of you. Why would. Why would anybody be thinking that it would be only one or only the other?

Hello, and welcome to the Pillow Talks podcast. We're your hosts, Vanessa and Xander Marin. I'm a sex therapist with over 20 years of experience.

And I'm just a regular dude. We share the ups and downs in our relationship while giving you step by step techniques for improving yours.

Make sure you subscribe for your weekly double date full of totally doable sex tips, practical relationship advice, hilarious and honest stories of what really goes on behind closed bedroom doors, and so much more. It's the sex education you wish you'd had. On today's episode, we are playing one of our favorite, favorite games that we've ever come up with, which is there's probably only one or two games that we've ever come up with, but this one, so low bar, it's called tiebreakers. So here's how tiebreakers works. You tell us something that you and your partner just cannot agree on. You have tried.

In fact, you disagree vehemently.

Oh, look at you pulling out the sat vocab words. But I think it's vehemently.

It could be either way.

All right, whatever. Anyways, you tell us what the debate is, and we, in all of our wisdom and glory, all of our knowledge.

All of our sage knowledge, we break.

The tie for you and definitively, once and for all, end your relationship standoff.

It has been decided with the power vested in us. With the power vested in us.

You can no longer fight about this.

Not allowed.

Here is your answer.

Here is your judgment.

Okay, so here's the setup. We turned to our Instagram community. If you're not following us on Instagram already, we're at Vanessa and Xander. And we asked, what is something funny or serious? And we have a whole wide range. But what is something that you and your partner just cannot agree on and.

You need our assistance.

Yes. You want us to break this tie for you. So. So we have a long list of them in front of us that our team member put together, but we have not discussed these. So this is the high stakes nature of tiebreakers.

Yeah, Snap judgments, baby.

Hopefully, we will agree on our takes on these, but we'll see.

Or not. Why hope? Why? Why do we need to agree?

Because we have to break the tie. There's no point in. In us having different opinions because then we are at a standstill again.

Well, but then we need a higher. We need a level above us to Tie break for. We need, like, you know, lair, a master tiebreaker to tiebreak our tie.

But there's nobody here to do that.

Chauncey and Maggie can do it.

Okay.

That was okay. Just kidding. We're gonna make sure that we agree.

We'll fight to the death between ourselves to get consensus. How about that?

All right. So there will be a winner.

There will.

Okay.

Deal.

Deal.

What is that answer?

Well, I'm trying to do my right hand, but I can't bump. I don't want to bump the mic. Okay.

I don't know why I went in for a handshake, but Xander just gave me the Lim Tempest fish Hands shake like he just clutched my hand in between three fingers.

We have this on video. I am very clearly.

Please, I need a video of.

I'm very clear. Come on, help me out here. Help me out here. There we go. Help me out here. I am trying desperately to not bump the microphone, knock the cord out.

Actually, you know what? I was listening to our podcast the other day, and you bumped the microphone a lot. I could. I kept hearing little thunk.

Yeah. Thanks for, you know, making me reach my arm out and bump the mic.

Okay, let's get into it.

And who says it wasn't you?

Because you were talking.

Could have still been you.

I'm just. I do hit the mic sometimes, too. I get it. We both get animated. It's hard not to.

I know.

All right. He won't shower with me. Says there is no room. I love being skin to skin with him. It's my love language. And we haven't showered together in 14 years. It's a daily struggle.

Daily.

Yeah.

Wow. Dramatic. A daily struggle.

Well, we can't. We can't be judging people who want us to break their ties.

I mean, are you begging every single day?

I don't know.

That's a lot. Okay, I need to know, how large is this shower?

Well, he says there's no room.

You know?

No. What? I mean, who do you side with? Him, him or the person who wrote this?

And the only options here are shower together or don't shower together or don't shower together. There's no middle ground.

Like, no, there could be a middle ground. We can break the tie with a completely different option that nobody's thought of.

I mean, in general, I want to side with this guy if he feels like there's no room, because, look, I relate with this. I am larger than Vanessa, and as such, in the shower, she is at a unfortunate.

You're taller. That's the real problem, she's at an.

Unfortunate height where it is very likely that my limbs hit her in the face. Unbeknownst to me, when I'm.

So we can't have the temperature I.

Want when I'm just living my life. Yeah. So the other thing is I'm taller than Vanessa, like by a foot. And so I don't know if you've noticed this, but as a shower falls, the water loses a lot of its heat. As it falls can be pretty shocking. So Vanessa likes it at a much hotter temperature because it's hitting her a foot lower than me. I don't know if you ever noticed this. I remember when I was a kid, like taking a shower with my parents or something. Like, probably like 3, 4 years old. I have this vague memory. 13, 14, of like. No. Of being picked up in the shower, like by my dad and being like, oh my God, the water is so much hotter up here. And that's like our situation. So Vanessa wants it. What to me feels like scalding hot. We probably like the same temperature, probably. So that's a problem. It's really hard for me to wash. We even have a large shower, but it's hard for me to wash my body and for both of us to have any amount of water on us without being at extreme risk for smacking her in the face, like with my elbows. So I feel for this guy if he. I want to side with him if he feels like there's not enough space. Because what's also behind that is he probably doesn't want to hurt you and then get in trouble for smacking you accidentally, then, you know, I want to side with him. That being said, I would say that if, if she really wants to have the experience of being close with him in the shower. Yo, dude, just take a shower with her every now and then. That's like just a for fun shower. Like, don't wash your hair, don't wash your body. Like, just get in there and be close with her and think of it like something nice that you're doing for her rather than like, I need to take a shower for me. I think that he should just take a shower with her occasionally once a month maybe.

Okay. I have some other ideas too, so I. I agree with you. I think if he's like, physically uncomfortable and just like can't do it, then I think we're allowed to decide that we want to shower by ourselves.

Also.

Showering is like, it's a personal hygiene thing. It's a self care thing. I think we get to, like, make our own boundaries around this.

Yeah.

And I. I think her saying, like, that's my love language. That's so specific. Like, you can say, I want more touch throughout the day, but I don't think we can use love language in, like, okay, you're doing something that I don't want you to be doing. Well, no, don't do that, because it's my love language.

It's like weaponized love language. Like, I took physical touch, and then I was like, well, my love language isn't actually physical touch. It is just close ass showers. That's it.

So I say this person cannot force him to take a shower together. But yes, he could throw this person a bone every once in a while and take a shower. Also, when you go on vacation or you're staying at somebody else's house, if there's a bigger shower, maybe try it there. And also he could throw this person a bone by just doing more skin to skin contact outside of the shower as well.

Yeah. Also strong suggestion for the person writing in to prioritize, you know, in a house, like getting a house or building a house or redoing a bathroom so that you can have a large enough shower for two shower heads with enough space for two of you. Okay.

That's a very privileged thing that most people wouldn't be able to experience.

Well, okay, true. But then again, if this is your love language and it's like, hey, this is like, I don't care how large the bedrooms are. I don't care how many, you know, big rooms. I just. I mean, if that's truly, like, your love language, then I feel like, you know, you.

You're being sassy. You came out the gates hot on this person.

Okay, well, tiebreakers, baby. Okay, Trying to break some ties.

All right, let's move on.

Okay.

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Next one. Ooh, this one is near and dear to my heart. Oh, you really put this in order for me to stay spicy, it sounds like. Should we hyphenate our last names when we get married? He thinks he's doing me female a favor. I say no.

Okay, let's say on the count of three what they should do. Should they hyphenate? Yes or no? 1, 2, 3.

No.

That's not a surprise. Okay. We are not fans of the hyphenate.

Sorry, mom and dad.

Yeah. So you were raised a hyphenate? I was not. I had a single name.

I was raised a hyphenate. I live that hyphenate life.

You did. Why is that weird to say?

Hyphae, hyphen, hyphenate, life.

Why is that weird to say? You were raised a hyphenate. You are a hyphenate.

I know, it just sounds. It sounds real funny. I've never heard anybody say that. Yo, you hyphenate.

That's really normal. You're being weird. Okay, so you were and you hated it because you had an extremely long name. I know. There's like, a lot of, like, technical challenges that come up too.

Like, yes, never fits in the boxes.

Never fits in the boxes. Sometimes, like, the hyphen isn't accepted. It just gets really weird. And I. Yeah, like, so then when we got married, I was like, well, I don't like, okay, so here's my beef with getting married. I think it's bullshit that in male female relationships, the woman just automatically has to change her name. Why? We're not living in the 1600s anymore. Like, my father didn't arrange for me to get married to you so that he could, like, get more land or cattle.

No. No dowries were paid.

No dowries are paid. Why do I automatically have to lose my identity, my name, just because I married to you?

Because you're becoming my possession. Obviously, that is sarcasm to anyone that did not pick that up through the microphone. I'm saying that right there so there's no missing context.

Okay, so I think this whole changing name thing is bullshit anyways.

And I agree with that.

Yeah. But then it, you know, in our circumstance, it was like, okay, well, what are we going to do? Like, become a 3 hyphenate? That's insane. I don't want to do that. So what we ended up doing, which is a perfect example of we're not going to side with either person. We have a different option for you. Pick one of your last names that you both change to.

Well, the funny thing about that is that actually we were going to do something else first.

Yes.

Which was we were going to create a Frankenstein last name, which you could do that too. Yes. So we were going to create a brand new last name that borrowed parts from all three of our last names.

And it was very ugly.

Well, I don't. Don't say ugly, because I'm sure that there's someone that listens to this podcast with that.

Don't say it.

I was gonna say it. Okay. I'm not gonna say it. You might be able to guess what it was because.

No, nobody knows what your hyphen was originally.

Okay, I guess I won't say it. Wow.

I never share my maiden name.

Okay, all right.

Well, just like a privacy thing for me.

Okay, great. Well, then in that case, I won't say it, and then no one will get thrown under the bus. But we were going to create a brand new last name out of all three of our last names. And, like, if no one said anything, Vanessa and I 100% would have done that. We would not be.

Marin thought it was a really good idea.

We were. Yeah, we were like. We were going full steam ahead with that. And, like, we were already thinking of ourselves that way. And so we told our parents, all of them, about that decision. And one by one, every single one of our parents, I think, independently, reached out to us to express Their extreme preference for us to do anything but that.

And it wasn't like, preference. It was just like. Have you guys thought about, like, the main point that all of them brought up was, like, this name that you're creating, there's no history tied to it. Like, you have three different names that all have these very unique histories. Or, you know, four. Like, we, you know, could look at my mom's maiden name, too. Like, you have four different names that all have histories tied to them. Like, why don't you just pick one of those instead? And we were like, oh, yeah, that's way more interesting. So we looked at these four names. We picked on a couple of factors, honestly. The main one was just like, what was the nicest sounding? And Marin, by far and away, like, had such a nice ring to it for both of us. Like, both of our first names. And we also really liked that it's Xander's mom's maiden name, which I thought was cool. It's like, yeah, fuck this. Like, let's take a maiden name. And it also is a Latino name. And both of us have Latino backgrounds.

Yeah, both of us have Latino backgrounds. And also can some, you know, can be very white, passing to the eye. And so it feels nice to. To have that Latino heritage in our name that, you know, sort of makes it a little bit more obvious of. Of. Of what we are, even though many people don't always see that, you know, just superficially.

So I would say pick your own name or don't change your names. But hyphenating. Yeah, hyphenating is not him doing her a favor. Like, yeah, not. Not in these days and times anymore.

Yeah, now, in this day and age.

In this. In these days and times.

In these days and times of our lives.

Days that. What is that?

In this day and age.

No, but what's that show? Days of our.

Days of our lives.

Of our lives.

That's why I said these days of our lives.

Okay, let's move on.

Oh, my God. No, no, no. I'm about to hit. No, I'm about to hit the guy with the real truth bomb of how he thinks he's doing her a favor. I guess maybe you're doing her a favor, but let me tell you, you are not doing your future children a favor. Because here's Vanessa shared, like, you know, a lot of it. For me, though, is one more element about the hyphenated name that felt particularly challenging to me. It was that, you know, my parents decided to hyphenate because they. I don't know, couldn't decide or, you know, whatever it was, you know, I'm sure there was more than just one thing behind that, you know, but they. They got to make that decision. But to me, it felt like. Well, by them making that decision, I felt like that put me in a tough position of, well, I am not really capable of making that same decision that they made, because, like, Vanessa said, yeah, it starts to get really unwieldy or when we're doing, like, three names. And especially if you continue that forward and assuming, okay, well, they made that decision, and then I make that decision. And then, you know, at that point, we thought we were going to have kids, so it was like, our kids make that decision, and then all of a sudden, you got like, you know, if everybody does this, like, we have, like, impossible to remember the long last names. Right. And so, to me, it felt like that, you know, making that decision actually takes some agency away from your own children and your children's children in creating a kind of, like, unfair burden for them. So that was my perspective on it. So to this guy who thinks that he's doing his wife a favor here or his future wife a favor, maybe you're doing her a favor. If she wants that, she doesn't want it. So you're not doing her a favor. But even if you were, you're not doing your kids a favor, in my opinion. I'm totally open to other opinions here. I know in some other cultures, like in. In Mexican culture, it's very common to have a lot of last names. Then again, you know, in American culture, in the country that we live in, it is not common, and, in fact, it is quite a burden, even for me, with these two last names. Each of my two last names were not particularly long, but together. And with the hyphen, it was more than 10 characters, I believe, which, like, a lot of standardized tests and, like, official documents only have boxes for 10. And so I would always. That the N in Marin would always get cut off. And it's just, like, sad when you're like, I can't, like, you know, this official governmental organization or whatever, like, doesn't even know what my actual name is. It almost feels like. Yeah, it feels pretty crappy. So that's my essay on the topic.

Wow. I didn't think we'd get so fired up. We were only two in. We have a long list.

Well, maybe there's gonna be two episodes.

All right, let's see. All right, here's our next one. I want hand jobs. She Thinks we're too old to be doing that. Xander, do hand jobs have an age limit?

Hand jobs do not have an expiration date. Don't have an age limit? Hell, no. As someone who, you know, I will take ownership of the fact that I probably used to think along these lines. I definitely, straight out of college in the first bachelor pad I lived in with a bunch of my college guy friends in San Francisco. Definitely made fun of one of our friends who was notorious for receiving hand jobs. Sorry, John, if you're ever listening to this, I won't say your last name. I'm sorry, John. That was unfair. Because the reality is hand jobs are fucking awesome. There is nothing better than. Honestly, like, there's a time and a place for an incredible hand job. It can be way better than a blow job, in my opinion, especially if you're using some of the techniques that we have in our foreplay guides. And it is so underrated. And it's just, like. It's so nice. Unlike a blow job where you can watch, but, like, you can't really see all the action because a lot of the blow job is happening inside of the mouth. Right? The hand job is, like, you just get to sit back. It's just like, all the attention is being paid to you. It. You could sit back, watch. It's really fucking hot. With the right technique, it's pretty next level. And, yeah, I don't think that anyone should knock hand jobs. And especially they shouldn't think, like, oh, now that we're old enough to be doing blow jobs or doing intercourse, like, screw the hand jobs, all right?

I want. I actually want you to, like, look to the camera and give an impassioned sales pitch for hand jobs.

Hand jobs, baby.

Do that. The whole. What was that?

I don't know.

He's slapping his. It's like slapping his hand with, like, a hand job.

I'm just trying to make some noise, you know? Okay, time to move on.

You got yourself all hot and bothered over here.

Yeah, I gotta let Vanessa get in on some of these, huh? All right. We are a busy family of four, and my husband and I share an E calendar to manage it all. Well, first of all, I just gotta ask what an E calendar is relative to a regular calendar. This kind of sounds. I'm just gonna throw my mom under the bus here.

That's why I'm laughing.

You might be listening. Mom and I. I hate to break it to you, but Vanessa and I laugh about this every now and then. There was this one time. What was It. What was it that you said? Vanessa. Vanessa was talking about writing, like, writing some articles, I think, for either, like, for our blog or for other publications. When Vanessa used to write a lot of articles for other, like, news publications, my mom was like, oh, like. Like an ezine.

It's not funny.

I've never heard anyone say.

Really not that funny.

I've never heard anyone say. Well, also because the word there is no word zine. It's just magazine. And I say magazine because I feel like 50 of people are going to hear that story and be like, what the is a zine? And how does that relate to anything? It's magazine. It should be ezine, not ezine, because there's no word zine. And it's magazine.

It's so. It's just one of those things. It's like, you know, it's not funny, but it just has such a history between the two of us.

Every now and then we just look at each other and go, oh, do you write that in your E sign? Sorry, Mom. We really love you. And it's.

I hope she stopped listening. She was listening for a while, but maybe she's. Maybe she's petered off.

I don't know. This is the test. Let me know if you're listening, Mom. I love you.

I love you, too. I'm sorry. It was very cute and endearing.

I know. I hope. It feels good to know that. We got such a kick. I think. Also. Wait. God, you just learned the word. Someone on our team sent it. This isn't quite the same thing, but I feel like this is, like, a type of humor that you especially love. What?

No, that was for Dan time. It's a. Wait, hold on. Malefor.

Malefor.

Malefor is what I do. There actually is a word that describes what I do. Malefor is when you mix up your metaphors. Like I said, a day and time instead of whatever it was.

Yeah, but, like, Vanessa gets a huge kick out of that. You get a huge kick out of mispronunciation types, spellings.

Yeah, I don't know. I'm really. That's. It's so dorky. But anyways, an E calendar.

I'm so sorry. To the person that wrote this in because he wrote in a long question. And we're gonna read it. We're gonna read it. But, you know, maybe that's the problem, is that you should just share a real calendar, not an E calendar. I don't even have to read the rest. I mean, we might have solved this without.

What I Tried to say is like this is a very normal thing that like families. It's an online calendar. I think she's trying to differentiate. It's not like a big like paper.

A physical calendar. I know, but does anybody use physical calendars anymore?

My mom.

Besides your mom, Anyone our age?

So an E. I don't know why that's so funny now. I don't often hear people call it an E calendar, but yes, online calendars are life savings.

They have a shared shared calendar. My husband and I have a shared calendar. We are a busy family of four and my husband and I and all of us have a shared calendar to manage it all. It's also an E calendar by the way. Just need you to know that we get an alert every time one of us adds to it and we each have to accept the ad before it goes into our respective phone calendars. So just to be clear. No, no, no, no, no, no. I, I changed, I changed it slightly to say they all have a shared calendar. I'm pretty sure it's just between her and her husband. I don't think all but the kids activities. Two of her kids. I don't think her two kids also have to accept activities because that would be mayhem. So this person and their husband, they have to each accept the ad before it goes into their respective phone calendars.

Different from an E calendar.

Yes. Oh, oh. Into the physical phone calendar.

Okay, keep going. We have to.

Okay. He just accepts the invites willy nilly without reading them through and making sure everything meshes and expects me to give a verbal of everything I add. I think the process of getting and accepting the event should be plenty of info for him. We don't need to discuss it unless one of us has a conflict.

Help. Okay. The original writer, you are 1000% right in this one. Your husband is making you do so much more work. That's the whole point of having an E calendar is that you have all the information there. You guys are able to look at how do these events line up on your individual calendars. You can get reminders like it's all there. It's so convenient. All you need to do is use the frickin system. And your husband is being a crazy person and refusing to use the system that is so nicely set up for him. So he needs to. And it's so simple too. Like just read over the invite, look at the info, make sure it works or send so that way you can send something back like oh, actually I can't pick up. Why can I never Think of a child's name. Except for Timmy. In the moment.

I was about to say, just say Timmy, babe. Just go Timmy.

I always say Timmy. It's a weird name.

You know, it's a. It's. It's a shout out. It's a shout out to our Canadian friends north of the border because we love Timmy Hortons.

We don't, though.

We've never been to Timmy Hortons in our life. But we love talking about Timmy Hortons because it's so quintessentially Canadian.

That time on Instagram, in fact.

Yeah, we love it. We love it so much that we made up a fake order for Timmy's.

And somebody was like, what's your. What's your Timmy's order? And we're like, extra large Timmy's to go.

It was like an extra large, like, number two Timmy's.

We just had an extra large Timmy's to go. And the Canadians got so mad at us. And you guys are such sweet, kind people, but we've never gotten more angry messages from Canadians.

That's not a real order at Timmy. You don't know Tim Hortons. Yeah. Is it that obvious?

Okay. Wow. We're really going off the rails. We've been going off the rails lately a lot.

That's good. I. I enjoy. I. I think our podcasts are way better.

Tim Hortons. Timmy.

Timmy. Okay. You know, it's little Timmy.

Okay. So, yes, your husband, like, would be able to say, no, I can't pick up Timmy for, like, after soccer practice today because I have a work meeting or I'm already getting Sally at her basketball practice. Right. So, like, you just need to read the information. So I think you're totally in the right. Your husband needs to change. And also, it really sounds like your husband needs to learn what mental load is.

Oh, yeah. I was about to say this is a. This is such a good example for all the people out there that struggle with mental load.

Your husband is putting so much more mental load on you by just accepting the invites willy nilly and saying, like, even though you put together the invite with all of the information that he needs, he and presumably wants you.

And presumably, I'm just going to guess the person who wrote this in created this entire system. Yeah.

Oh, yeah.

As well. So not only did you engineer, you're not only the architect of this whole calendar system that is meant to share the mental load between you, and you are following the rules that you guys both agreed to. Sorry, so I know I interrupted you, so I'm saying Not only all that, but I forgot my train of thought.

But he's just accepting the invites willy nilly. And he, and then he's asking. Oh, and he's also asking you to verbally tell him recap everything. That's insane.

Yeah, because then what's the fucking point of the whole system of you spending because you're spending time? Because let's be real, when you're making an E calendar invite, you can, you can half ass it and you can just be like, block this time or like the event, right, and send it off with a time. Or you can actually fill the whole thing out and be like, you know, oh yeah, the, you know, basketball practice at Sally's school. That is super important because Sally and.

Timmy are such a basic name because.

There'S gonna be, there's gonna be scouts from, you know, the like university there. And it's really important, you know, whatever, that kind of thing. And it's, you know, and you fill out the location and all this stuff. So you created this system. You're spending all this time like giving him all the information that he needs and then he's not looking at it and then saying, well, why don't you just tell me? So that's like maddening. So you're like, well, why did I even do any of this shit in the first place? If we were doing it that way where like I'm your mom, then like, we. I wouldn't have spent all this time creating all this, like I just tell you. But yeah, so anyway, that's messed up. The only things I want to say here are the only two possible points that this guy has is if for some reason you are not actually putting enough information in the calendar invite where it's like unclear to him what it is, like there's not a clear description, then it would be fair of him to say, hey, I'm not sure I understand what this means. But he still needs to initiate. Hey, I saw the invite you sent me titled xyz. I'm not sure I'm understanding what this is. Could you give me a little more detail rather than just being like, accept and then he's like blissfully unaware until you say, hey, why didn't you go to this thing? And then the second thing is, the only other thing that I would maybe say is like, that could potentially he could take issue with is like, because you know, when you are using an E calendar, you can usually click like find a time and see the availabilities of both people. It's like if you're sending invites willy nilly without looking at his calendar and seeing like, oh, could it, could he even attend this thing given what else is on his calendar? I could see an issue where it's like, hey, you know, like, I was expecting that you would check the calendar before sending me an invite to go to dinner with friends when you already knew that I'm like doing something else with the kids or something. Those are the only situations where I would be like, yeah, you have a point. You have a valid point. To be like, hey, I'd like you to like use the calendar differently or like be more considerate of what I already have on the calendar. Sounds like that's not happening here. So I side entirely with the person writing in the other husband's got to step it up with his e calendaring.

Okay, the next one. Actually there's a similar theme here with mental load. Okay, let's answer on the count of three. Who is responsible for house chores if we both work? One, two, three.

Both of you. Why would, why would anybody be thinking that it would be only one or only the other?

Yeah, that's crazy.

Who's responsible for household chores even if you both don't. Wait. Even if only one of you works?

Both of you.

Both of you. It's not like, yeah, it's not like. Because we, we all know there's plenty of research now that shows that the work of keeping up a household, especially when you have kids, but even when you don't have kids, like, is more than a full time job. So it is. No, it is no longer acceptable to be like, okay, I am somehow, I am somehow exempt from any household labor if I have a full time job. Because the reality is, is that, you know, I think research tends to show that, what, keeping up a household and family is about 90 hours of work a week.

Oh, I think it's more than that.

And, and most, you know, most full time jobs people are working 40 hours. Okay.

Insane. It's a, like, are there even 126.

Hours in a week? It's a seven day a week job. And I think that's the thing that a lot of us get wonky. It's like, oh, Well, I worked 9 to 5 Monday through Friday and that somehow exempt gives me like two days off.

Yeah, no, you're still an adult. Like, chores are just part of being an adult and every family has to navigate this differently for themselves. Like, it totally makes sense to say, okay, every family is unique and different. It doesn't need to be a 50, 50 mix.

Like, especially if one person is working outside the house a lot and it would be reasonable that they could accomplish like half of them. Exactly.

Yeah. Like, I'm not even home at the time that certain tasks need to be done, whatever it is. So everybody's got to split it up.

Yeah, within reason.

But the bottom line is that working outside of the home doesn't exempt you from being an adult and needing to do chores and pick up after yourself and just be an adult human being.

Yeah, if you want to be exempted from that, then I'd say don't get into a relationship. Definitely don't buy a home.

Don't have kids.

Yeah, don't have kids. Like definitely move into like a well managed apartment building and be ready to hire all the help that you need to get your house cleaned and do your laundry and all that stuff. Kind of just sounds like a very stereotypical bachelor Peter Pan situation. So if that's what you want, like, then fucking own it. Lean in and do that. But yeah, don't like, create a family and expect that somehow you get to live that type of life.

Okay, we are gonna link something for you in the show notes, our mental load guide. So if you and your partner have never had a clear discussion about mental load and how you're sharing responsibilities and mental load, which by the way, we pulled this very recently and I believe it was 50% of couples said that they have never had that conversation. And another, I don't know, maybe 20 to 30% of people said, like, we've talked about it, we're trying, but like, we don't have a clear plan only. Yeah, something like, only like 19% of people said, we have talked about this. We have a clear and specific plan. So the vast majority of you. Yeah, the vast majority of you need this guide. It describes what mental load is. So especially if you have a partner who's like, I don't get it, I don't know what that means.

Why is this such a big deal?

Yeah, it describes what it is, why it's important, and how the two of you need to, to balance mental load and responsibilities. And it gives you this like, really comprehensive guide for coming up with a specific plan that again, is tailored to your unique situation, your unique family. But that's getting really clear on who's doing what. So we'll link that for you. Our mental load guide in the show notes. It's very, very important. Actually, another little quick aside on that. We also recently conducted some really, really thorough research on you guys. We did interviews.

Sounds creepy. We've been conducting research.

No, we did a poll and thousands of you, like not a poll, a survey. Like a comprehensive survey. Thousands of you responded. We actually even had a research team, like talk one on one with 20, 25 different people. Yeah, a lot of interviews, depth, long interviews. And one of the top three things that people said they needed more help with or that they'd really benefited, you know, from our work mental load was one of the top three things. So I guess we need to be talking about a lot more. But we will link that guide for you in the show notes. All right, let's move on. Xander.

All right. Should we charge rent to in laws who are living in our home? Mother in law and 24 year old brother in law? I say yes, partner says no.

This is one where I'm like, I really want more of this story. I wish that they sent us like a long dm. Like what is the situation? How long are they living there? Why are they living there?

Yeah, do you rent? Do you, do you rent or own? I kind of want to know, like what is the financial situation?

What's the vibe? Like do they help out with household chores and responsibilities or like helping take care of your kids?

Is it like roommates or are they in like an adu or like an in law?

Oh yeah, Privacy. Are they moochers? Not moochers.

Well, what we do know though, I mean there's definitely possibly some sort of amount of bias here in that the person asking it is their in laws, whereas the partner, it is their mother and brother. Which is a tricky situation.

I'm torn on this one. The details really matter.

Yeah. Like is there a move out date.

Or is it, is there an issue of hardship too? Like did they have to move in because your dad died and he was the primary breadwinner or your brother got ill or injured and mom is caretaking him but they can't afford their own. Like it matters so much versus well, I guess there's not going to be any situation with mother in law and brother in law. Like we're just going to move in for fun even though we can't afford our own place. So I'm, I'm assuming there's some sort of hardship.

Yeah. You know what I would say I would be, I'm hesitant to make a firm judgment on like financial, of financially paying rent. But I do think that if they are, I'm going to make a couple assumptions. You said living in our home. I think that means an Open ended, indefinite type of thing. It's not, they're not staying temporarily, they're not visiting for a couple of weeks. Like they are there living on an ongoing basis. So I would say that if that is the case, family or not, that there should be some expectation that somebody living in your house that you are paying for, they should be contributing.

They should be contributing some more.

They should be contributing in a way that feels fair and reasonable to that household. So that could be done in a number of ways.

Okay, that's the answer.

That could be taking on household responsibilities, taking on some of that mental load. Nanny, cooking, you know, and then it could be a sort of a light financial help where it's like, okay, maybe you're not paying rent to, you know, like the full amount the rent would cost, but like you're buying groceries or you're buying the cleaning supplies or you know, we're taking, they're taking you out for dinner sometimes or whatever, you know, so you're contributing some money financially, but like lesser than rent money, like you said with babysitting, that can be a. Providing a service that has a financial value because you would otherwise pay someone to do that. Or it could be just talking about, hey look, let's get real about, this is our house. Like, this is what our mortgage is, this is what our expenses are. And how can we make this work in a way that feels equitable to all of us? It could be a whole range of things, but I feel like there has.

To be some sort of contribution. If they're living in your house for an extended period of time, there has to be some sort of contribution. And that contribution can vary wildly depending on the circumstances and what's possible. But like, there's got to be something that they could do.

Yeah.

Unless they're like completely like.

Well, yeah, I mean, unless, like. Yeah, unless like you're there, they're there because you're, you've decided to take care of them. Yeah, yeah.

Which I don't think it is.

It doesn't sound like that.

So contribution. It doesn't need to necessarily be rent. Yeah, but I think it should be a conversation of like, yeah, you gotta also hear, you know, what can, what can we contribute? And I hate that. Like, I'm just really wondering the story because I'm like, they're obviously the mother in law and brother in law obviously did not come into the home clearly, like doing things, because I don't think this person ever would have reached out to me.

This just reminds me of like, I Don't know. When I came back home, you know, there were a couple summers in college where I lived at home for summer, part of the summer. And, you know, I was expected to do certain chores and stuff. And, yeah, it's like, yeah, I didn't do those chores year round because I didn't live there anymore. But I came back and it was like, you know. Yeah, you. It's not like you just have a free hotel room.

Yeah.

You know, it's like, oh, you're back in this house, so let's split up the chores.

Yeah.

So, you know, at a minimum, I think there should be some. Yeah, you're coming into our household, which before you came in here, we were taking care of everything because we had to take care of everything because it was just us. Now it's not just us. So how do we all make sure that we are taking care of things and that. Yeah. And I think that, you know, you just have to be asking them for what is reasonable. If they don't have money to pay rent, then it's not reasonable to be like, okay, you have to pay rent, but, you know, then definitely ask for something else.

Yeah, okay. This is an interesting one. Can we listen to Christmas music before November? I say yes. My scrooge partner says no.

Do you want to know what I think?

Sure.

I think you might be surprised. I think that you can listen to Christmas music any time of the year. I wouldn't put a date limit on it. What I will say, though, is that if you want to listen to Christmas music excessively all throughout the year, it should be fairly reasonable for you to expect that your partner might be like, you know, hey, I'm not open to Christmas music every single day, like, throughout Christmas time. Like, you're gonna burn your partner out on Christmas music. Because I think most people like to just almost only listen to Christmas music, like, right through December. It's like, if that's what you're wanting, then I would, you know, read the room. Like, don't listen to Christmas music non stop in. In July, but if you enjoy Christmas music, then listen to it throughout the year. Just understand that you might burn through your kind of Christmas music goodwill.

All right, well, you. You missed my hearken back to a previous episode, and we had that long conversation about earphones. If earphones is a thing or if it's headphones.

Oh, headphones, earphones, yeah. Ear plugs, earbuds, earbuds, earplugs. Those are different.

Anyways, Yes, I agree. You can listen. You personally can Listen to Christmas music anytime you want using headphones. If your partner doesn't want to listen to Christmas music, then they don't have to be subjected to that. But also, like, Christmas music is fun, and we. We don't need to limit it just to Christmas.

Okay. What I want to know is how wide is your range of Christmas music? Like, how many songs or albums are we talking about? Because if. When I. If this question were asked to me, like, in real life, basically, there's, like, two Christmas albums that are on rotation. Really just one in. In our, slash, Vanessa's family's household. To me, if the answer is, well, there are two albums. There's.

And you can't even remember it. How many times have you listened to it for 17 years?

No, no, no. It's the. It's the. The murderer. What is his. What's his fucking name?

Murderer.

Oh, my God. Tell me. Tell me the guy's name.

No, I don't know it.

I'm blanking on it. I want to say, like, Philip Glass. It's not Philip Glass. He is not a murderer, as far as I know.

We're gonna get sued.

Isn't it. Isn't it Phil? Isn't it Phil something?

Yes. Philip's Glass does not do Christmas music and is definitely not a murderer. Please do not send your attorneys to get us.

Oh, my God. But what is it, please?

Spector.

Oh, Phil Spector. Phil Spector's Christmas album. Man, that is a. That is a jam of a record. That man is a murderer, though. I don't know why we listened to it.

I mean, it's really good music. He didn't sing on it. He just produced it.

He didn't sing. He does. He does talk on it.

Talks creepily.

There are some Phil Spector interludes, some murder interludes on. There's that album. And then, I mean, that's it. And then there's, like, All I want for Christmas is you. That song.

Yeah.

And so maybe there's less than two albums that we listen to.

It's just the one.

So for me, I'm like, well, no, we're not listening to one album on repeat, like, all year long. But if you have, like, a whole variety, if you have a wide array of Christmas albums that you like, then, yeah, I'm swearing a lot in this episode. I hope you don't.

I really hope Art, our podcast editor, puts a little pitch thing on me, because that was horrible. But that song's a jam, and you really have to belt it.

Okay, let us know what is, what is your go to Christmas or holiday?

I'm not, I'm not switching it up from Phil though.

The wall of sound.

Okay, do the next one.

Okay, on that note, next one, eliminating toxins. I want to try to use clean products. He thinks it's woo woo.

You're the winner here. By far and away. Like, unfortunately, this one feels like such a bummer. We've been having so much fun. We were just talking about Christmas and now we're on to toxins. But toxins are real, man. And our cleaning products are full of crap and they're affecting our hormone levels and our bodies and all sorts of horrible, awful, terrible things. There's like the thing that really boggles my mind is I think there are 30,000 chemicals and ingredients that the EU bans and the US bans like five. I don't remember the exact number, but.

It'S like it might not be 30,000, but.

No, it's 30,000.

There's a massive discrepancy in what. Yeah. What our government versus the European Union's government thinks are like, are safe for us health wise. And we barely ban any of them.

Yeah. So you're right. It's a really good idea for everybody to use clean cleaning products, which sounds like such a funny thing, but you really should. And we don't. There's no podcast sponsor here or anything like that.

Yeah, we got nothing.

Because I do have some favorite brands that I really like to use, but I think it's such a great change for people to make. But I also have a nice compromise for you here. You can clean pretty much anything with a vinegar and baking soda and those are ridiculously cheap. They're not like, I don't think your husband will think they're woo woo. But they're very effective cleaners. So do that.

Yeah. I mean, another thing that I've, that I we've learned in this is that. But there are most of these cleaners, you know, like, like countertop cleaner, window cleaner, all purpose cleaner. They're mostly all the same product, just with different amounts of water in them.

Yeah.

So like you can get, you know, you can basically get one product and just water it down to different levels because it's just. Yeah. Like the windows don't need nearly as much of the actual cleaning solution, whereas like the all purpose cleaner needs more or, you know, whatever. So.

What a strange episode this is.

Yeah. This is weird information from us, but what were you gonna say?

I was gonna say like the thing that about this for me is like, even if, like, I'm guessing, I'm probably not gonna convince your partner that toxins are not woo woo. I'm not an expert in this. Like, there's really no reason to listen to me in this regard. But I will say, like, one thing that I really think about is this is a decision that affects both of you. So if this was, like, if he lives in, I don't know if he lives in his own apartment, he can use whatever cleaning products he wants. But if the two of you have a shared space, you're being affected by the fumes and the fragrances that you're smelling and they're on your clothes and like, literally every surface in your home, like, then I think that, like, he should defer to you and say, okay, I wouldn't buy these myself. I don't think it's that important. But if for you, this feels like a real health thing and there's no way for you to, like, not do it in a share space, then, like, just defer to the person who has a safety concern.

Yeah, I mean, this is an extreme example. But, like, if, if he smokes cigarettes and you don't smoke cigarettes, it would be very reasonable to be like, please do not smoke in the house. I don't want to have any secondhand smoke. So it's for the same reason that you, you know, we don't smoke in the house. When one person smokes and the other person doesn't. You know, you can have different opinions on how bad secondhand smoke is, though. There's a lot of research on that. And I don't think that is. I don't think that there's much doubt on that one. But yeah, it's like, well, yeah, smoking impacts one person. It wouldn't be, it's not reasonable to be like, oh, well, the smoking only impacts me, so I'm going to smoke as much as I want in the house, it's like, well, no, it impacts me, but it also impacts this other person. So I will smoke outside. So, yeah, you can use your toxic chemicals at your own house, no big deal, or outside or whatever. But even setting all of that aside, I would simplify this and be like, all right, why don't you just say, like, why don't you sidestep this whole woo thing and be like, this is a mental load thing. And whoever's responsible for buying the household products and using them and using them.

They get to decide, hey, future Vanessa here, popping back in time to let you know that at this point in the recording, our frickin mics went out and we were not able to record high quality audio of the rest of the episode. So once we discovered it, we were going to go back and rerecord the episode. But what we realized is that we were really in the moment and we were feeling ourselves and having fun.

Yeah. When you're unhinged, it's not really possible to get unhinged again in the same sort of way.

Yeah. So we made the tough decision to just leave the audio as is. We were recording backup audio that is much, much lower quality.

Yeah. From our phones, recording video far away.

We decided to prioritize humor and entertainment over perfect audio just in this one scenario. So you're going to hear some rough audio, but we hope it'll be worth it in the end.

Yeah. I mean, if he's like, I do all the shopping and I take care of a finance, you know, and I'm like responsible for the budgeting and I'm responsible for the cleaning and you're telling me that I need to spend like three. I'm just making up numbers.

If he's just using vinegar.

Yeah. You don't have to. But if he's feeling like, well, you're making me spend more money on it and I'm not able to like hit the budget that I'm responsible for and it's like somehow harder for me to clean with these, which it isn't. But even if. Then maybe there's a point. So I just be like, all right, let's arrange the responsibilities so that I'm in full control of that element of things and you get to make all the choices you want because it's your job.

Okay, Xander, this is a hot topic. Is listening to an audiobook, reading 1, 2, 3. Yes.

Yeah.

Okay.

The thing though is that I. Well, I don't know, a part of me was about to say if I listened to a book, just an audiobook, I would be a little hesitant to be like, oh, yeah, I read that. I'd be like, oh, I listened to that one because I feel like for like, for like business books or like self help non fiction type of books, I feel like I really don't take in as much of the store of like all the stuff in a book like that if I listen to it versus reading it, like sitting down to read it because it's like, it's more like on the go or I'm in the car here and there getting distracted by things when I, like if I'm listening to Like, a fiction book. I feel like I'm almost more immersed when I'm listening to it. I don't. I don't feel like I've, like, missed any plot points or anything. So. Yeah, no, I just say it's reading. It's just a different way of consuming it.

There's a weird snobbery that comes up around this. And, like, I will say, I am such a bookworm. I love reading. I'm always reading, like, three or four books at the same time. I love a physical book. I like, barely even like to use my Kindle. I'm not a big audiobook person. But all that being said, I think there's a weird snobbery around, like, audiobooks don't count as reading. It's like, yeah, okay, technically you're listening instead of reading, but, like, you're still consuming a book, and that's ultimately, like, what matters the most. Who cares if somebody, like, likes listening to it versus reading it? As long as you're have, like, who cares period? But. And especially, like, now that I'm an author, I don't give a fuck if somebody reads my book versus listens to my book. Like, I just want you to. To consume it in one way or another.

I mean, from a selfish perspective, actually. I mean, it's better for us if people buy the audiobook than buy the physical book.

We want more money.

Yeah. We get more royalties for that. I mean, it's kind of akin to, like, what's really writing? Like, do you have to have, like, pen to paper to be properly writing? Or, like, typing on a keyboard? Is that writing? Okay, what about dictation? You know, what about actually, like, using an AI prompt to help you outline something and then you fill it out via dictation or typing? Is that not really writing? It's like, you know, we just have. As technology develops, we get new ways to consume content and to do tasks. I don't think it takes away. Yeah, it's not like, oh, we can't call it writing anymore. We can't call it reading anymore. It's all the same thing.

All right? We did a terrible job at getting through our list. We are gonna do 10 of these, and we have 12 more to go.

So we definitely have another episode.

Please let us know if you like this, because we've got another episode and then some. But, Xander, why don't we take it home with us?

Well, I think we definitely. We are definitely gonna do another episode.

People might not like this. This was a really weird episode.

I don't know. I gauge this just on, like, how fun it is to record.

I had a lot of fun recording this, but it's definitely a weird episode.

Let us know. I think this is more entertaining when we get unhinged. Yeah, I mean, it's more. It's more exciting to listen and, like.

Then you can get more us. This.

Yes.

It's more like what being our actual friends is like, getting a lot of unhinged opinions and weird laughter. Okay, read our last one. All right.

My husband cannot. My husband. My husband can't understand why women wear tights when exercising, especially when doing squats. He believes that women have been suckered into an industry that has preyed on women's naivete. That. My mom also. My mom also says that that's what my mom think I dropped that. My mom. I remember for so long being like, is that because my mom was the only person that I ever heard say that word until I got into high school and started reading, you know, books with that kind of caliber of SAT words. Naivety.

Okay.

Also naivete. My mom says naivete.

Also, I love that. That this person misspelled prayed. So instead of like, P, R E, Y, like you're praying on someone, it's prayed P, R A Y. So your husband thinks that women have been sucked into an industry that are. That. That's preying over there. Naivete.

Wow. That's a. That's a.

Interesting.

Okay. An industry that is preyed on women's naivete. I don't even know. It's a hard word to say. He also thinks women are indecently exposing themselves when they wear the scrunch bum type tights.

Do you know what? Scrunch bum.

I need a picture. Can you. Oh, wait, let me finish reading this before you take it that way. I believe they just feel comfortable and I'm not wearing them for attention.

Okay, this is scrunch butt.

Oh, my God. I've never seen one of those in the wild. That is hilarious. What is the point of. It's just to call attention to your butt crack. Right? I mean, obviously, there's no comfort reason to have a scrunchie thing.

No.

Wow. Wait, can I see another?

Huh? I mean, it's just, like, a cute design detail.

Yeah. Yes.

It's definitely bum highlighting.

Yes. Okay.

Okay. So back to the original question. Your husband is a being a bozo.

He thinks he's doing women a solid, though. I think he really does.

We wear leggings because they're comfortable, and we want to be comfortable. While we are exercising. And also, they look cute. And I want to look cute while I'm working out. I want to see my body. I want to feel proud of my body. And even if I want other people to see and appreciate my body, that does not mean I have been suckered into an industry that's preying on my naivete. I don't need to be protected. I know what I'm doing. When I'm putting on a pair of tight ass leggings, I'm being comfortable so I can go work out.

But what I want to know is, what does this man think that women should be wearing when they exercise? What is the alternative?

Yeah, what is the alternative of loose, loose, flowy pants? Those are very uncomfortable to work out in.

I mean, most men wear tight. Like men wear these days. Like, yeah, workout. Workout clothes for men. Like long. I mean, many men will wear like actual tights with shorts over them or like if. Or like. Yeah, workout shorts tend to be fairly tight. I mean, I. My workout chores have like a built in like a liners that are tight.

Yeah.

There's a reason that we work out in tight things.

I also like wearing tight clothing because I can see my form better too. Like, I need to see how your.

Legs are bent and stuff. Baggy ass pants.

Are my ribs flaring out? Are my shoulders back? Are my knees over my ankle? Like, there's so many things that you want to see, but ultimately, yeah, like they're the most comfortable things to wear too. Like, I wear short shorts. I actually don't even like to wear pants to work out. I wear little short shorts to work out. And they are tight and they show off my bum.

Yeah, well, I mean, that. That was my next bum, Bum, bum.

That's your butt.

Well, that was. That was like my next question here was, he's like, tight. So like. Well, yeah, like what is he saying? That they just wear shorts, but then like, shorts are still tight and show off your butt?

No, I think he's like, yeah, wear some like baggy ass sweatpants.

So then women can only wear long pants. Like, there's no option. I mean, women don't usually wear. I haven't seen many baggy shorts that women wear.

Well, if you're wearing baggy shorts and when you're doing stuff with your legs that like, then you can see right up your shorts, you know? Yeah, you gotta go tight. But yeah, this idea, like the indecently exposing themselves. Well, get over it.

There is a dip. So no, to be clear with that one Though, whenever you get workout pants, you do the bend over test, which is, can you see through them? Because not all workout. Yeah, pants are meant to be worn, like without underwear, without exposing yourself.

Who cares if you see like the little tiniest outline of my butt crack? Like, who cares?

I mean, we all know what a butt crack looks like.

We all know. And like, yeah, the fat, it's. There's really no secrets there. But yeah, this idea that, like, I think that ultimately what he's talking about is like this idea that we women are supposed to keep ourselves covered because you men can't control yourselves and we need to be safe and not tempt you. And it's just like a whole bunch of really backward ass outdated thinking. Like, if you feel uncomfortable by what other people are wearing to the gym, go find a different gym or work out at home. It's not my responsibility as a woman who's just trying to get a fucking workout in to make you feel comfortable.

Or, you know, even better. It sounds like you have a lot of ideas about the women's fitness industry that you should put to the test. Why don't you start your own female fitness company and start designing and marketing.

Call it preyed on naivete.

Yeah. Start designing and marketing the type of workout clothes that you think women should be wearing and put some marketing dollars behind it.

Call them Loose Bum workout pants.

Great. Loose bun. That's a brand name.

Loose Bum Bum. There was some other gross word. Moist. Loose, moist.

Or, or you could call your brand Decent Exposure. But I mean, yeah, see, See how it goes. I mean, if you're right about this, that could be a massive industry. You could really show your. You could really show your wife if you make it big in the loose bum industry.

Okay, well, that wraps up our tiebreakers. Let us know if you like this unhinged episode and you want another because we've got some other whoppers in this list that we just do not have time to get to.

I'm gonna have to unwind after this.

I know. Seriously. We will link a couple of things in the show notes for you that we mentioned in the episode. Our ultimate foreplay guides.

Get the hand job you deserve if.

You want to get. If you want to give your partner the hand job that will convince them that hand jobs are not age restricted. Then get the ultimate foreplay guides. But they also cover blowjobs going down on a woman, fingering a woman. They're our best sellers, best reviewed guides. They're so much fun. We will also link that mental Load guide for you and our book Sex Talks, which you can read or read on audiobook.

All right, well, we've mentioned that this was quite an unhinged episode. I suspect that people like that better. Vanessa's unsure. If you love this episode, let us know by going and giving us a five star rating in Spotify in Apple Podcasts. But if you are listening in Apple Podcasts, we would love it even more. After you hit those five stars, give us a review. What you do is you click Pillow Talks up. Like at the top of listening to this episode, go to the main Pillow Talks page where all of our podcast episodes are listed. Scroll all the way down to the bottom. That's where you'll see the review section. Leave us just a couple sentences saying what you like about this podcast that helps other people who are looking for a new unhinged relationship podcast to listen to know that this is the unhinged amazing podcast for them to check out and that really helps us grow, helps us reach new people and get featured by the likes of Spotify and Apple. So we appreciate you so much for doing that that we read one review allowed every week. And if you hear yours read, you're a winner and we will give you a free masterclass. All you have to do is DM us on Instagram or email us@infomtherapy.com so Vanessa, why don't you take it away with this week's review of the week winner.

Okay. Thank you for fighting for the ladies. I love this podcast and how it normalizes women getting pleasure too. How did our society get like this? I'm so sad. It took too many years years to learn my body and what I like. I first started following Vanessa on Instagram pre Vanessa and Xander. Wow. You're an og.

Dang.

But recently I've been binging Pillow Talks episodes. I've been learning so much from this podcast and especially love the phrase, everyone who wants an orgasm gets one. My husband was recently on a men only camping trip and they all mentioned that their wives never want sex and he said, strange, my wife wants sex all the time. I think that's because of you, Vanessa and Xander.

Aw.

It's been helping our relationship a lot. We've been thriving even in the season of Raising Young Kids. Hell yeah. I'm gonna mention this podcast next time I see those wives for sure. Thanks guys, for normalizing pleasure. I won't end this review with emojis because I know how Xander feels about them. And then there's one. Okay, just one a little winky face for you.

Winky face. I know what that is.

All right, well, that's all for today's episode of Pillow Talks. Thank you so much for listening. Join us again next week when we answer all your questions about orgasms.