EPISODE 185: How To Navigate Porn In Your Relationship

It's normal and healthy in a long term relationship to still feel attraction to other people. Like, getting in a relationship doesn't mean that we lose the function of our eyes. Like, our eyes still work, we still feel attraction to other people. And that doesn't say anything bad about the relationship. Hello and welcome to the Pillow Talks podcast. We're your hosts, Vanessa and Zander Marin. I'm a sex Therapist with over 20.

Years of experience and I'm just a regular dude. We share the ups and downs in our relationship while giving you step by step techniques for improving yours.

Make sure you subscribe for your weekly double date full of totally doable sex tips, practical relationship advice, hilarious and honest stories of what really goes on behind closed bedroom doors, and so much more. It's the sex education you wish you'd had. So today's episode is about one of the most challenging, controversial and requested topics. And that is porn. But first I have to let you know, today is a solo episode. It is the very first solo episode that has ever been done in Pillow Talks history. What is this 185 episodes in? So let me just give you a little quick explanation. Xander had a procedure yesterday in his mouth. If you've been following us on Instagram, we're at Vanessa and Zander, you you know that he has been on an entire journey for the last about six months or so of expanding his palette, doing all these different procedures. So yesterday he had a tongue tie release, a lip tie release, and two buccal tie releases. Those are in your cheeks. The procedure ended up being really hard on him and he is not feeling well. But we also needed to get an episode recorded today. So I decided to just go ahead and tackle this one by myself. But this is something that we've had a lot of conversations about. So I know that I can express his opinions in this episode as well. But man, it is weird. It's weird not to have him here. I'm looking over at where he usually sits and there's nothing there. And that is strange. So I don't think we will be making a habit out of having solo episodes. I like having my buddy doing these with me, but just wanted to give him some space today to not be feeling so hot and to take the time that he needs to rest and recover. And he will be back next week. Okay, so porn. We are talking about the impact of porn in relationships. So as always, we turned to our Instagram audience cause we wanted to get a feel of what's going on in our community. So First I asked, do you feel comfortable with your partner watching porn? The response options were not at all. Only if we watch together. Yes, I feel comfortable. And then I had to throw in a like, neutral, undecided. It's complicated because this is a topic that a lot of people are undecided about or have very complicated feelings about. So here are the results. The two most common responses, tied at 30% each, were not at all comfortable. And yes, I feel comfortable. So I was pretty shocked by that. An even split of people being uncomfortable and comfortable, only 10% said, only if we watch together. And then 29% said neutral, undecided. It's complicated, which I'm just now realizing doesn't feel fully add up to 100. There must be some little stray percentages in there. But that's how our community is currently feeling about porn. So let me share a little bit about our perspective around porn before we get into the episode itself, because this is such a complex topic. And I think it's really important to be transparent about the particular way that we look at this issue, the lens that we view it through. So let's talk a little bit about porn usage. And I just want to say this is something that is difficult to study because a lot of people don't want to be fully honest about their porn habits. Of course, it's something that most of us feel some amount of shame and embarrassment around. But there are some studies of this. One study found that about 90% of men and 60% of women in the US said that they have ever watched porn. And then when we look at, like, more regular consumption, about 69% of men and about 40% of women view porn about once a year at least. Another study found that about 60% of U.S. adults reported watching pornography on a pretty regular basis. A different study found that one in three men and one in six women watch porn at least once a week. So this is something that most of us, the vast majority of us, have at least seen once. And a lot of us are watching pretty regularly. So before we get into the impacts that it has on relationships, I want to talk a little bit about the impact that porn can have on us as individuals. And this is like, right away where we get into really tricky and complex territory. So the first thing that I want to say is I don't think there's anything wrong with watching sex and being turned on by it. Like, pornography has been a part of human culture basically since the dawn of time, has existed in one form or another. And the reality is Sex is sexy. Watching people have sex is sexy. It is a turn on. And I think that most basic fact is something that we should not be ashamed or embarrassed about. Obviously there's so much shame and embarrassment and taboo around sex, but the basic reality of seeing other people having sex and thinking that's hot like that is so, so, so normal. Now, of course, porn has become much more complex and much more complicated over the years. And I think we're only going to see even more complex and more complicated at an increasing rate in the next few years. But there are a lot of challenges with how we consume pornography these days. So porn is so much more readily available now than it was like growing up. Porn was so difficult to find. Like, maybe you could steal a Playboy magazine, but that is, you know, mostly like pictures of boobs and butts. Like it wasn't super, super graphic. I know Xander has stories of trying to download porn from like limew and stuff like that where it would, you know, it'd take hours or sometimes days. You're trying to hide it from your parents and then you spend all that time and it's like, you know, a corrupted file. So you only see one grainy little thing and then the whole thing dies. But now you can find porn in a second. And you can find really intense porn too. Like there's porn for every single kink or interest or curiosity that you can think of. Porn is so much more graphic. It's so much more intense. And because it's so much more readily accessible, a lot of us are watching it a lot more than we used to. So the like rates of porn consumption have really dramatically gone up. And so there are a number of issues that that can cause. So a big one is escalation and desensitization. So tomorrow we are going on a very special trip. We are celebrating our anniversary, which actually happened in October, but we had something different going on, so we switched it over to December. And while we are flying, we are going to be wearing our brand new unbound Marino gear.

I am so excited for this because traveling is honestly, it's a pain in the ass.

Like, it's uncomfortable especially.

Yeah, we're, we're going to be on a long flight, like, like an overnight flight, like probably over 10 hours long. And the reality is when you're on a long flight, like you can go to the bathroom and change, but that sucks. That experience sucks. Like it's, you know, it's not like.

You'Re always like getting your clothes like on the ground.

And I'M so, so bad. So it's like I love being able to show up at the airport in something where I feel good being at the airport in it. And I also feel good wearing it on the plane and knowing that I'm going to be in it for a long time. Because that really just simplifies things. Like I've, I've tried, I've had bad changing in the bathroom experiences on the plane. Too often I try to minimize the amount that I do that. And I'm so excited about these Unbound Merino travel the pants and shirts.

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I've been wearing my shirts just like around the house, but I'm really excited to wear them on the plane too. So Unbound merino helps travelers pack lighter, save on baggage fees, and takes the decision fatigue out of packing with their versatile and timeless pieces. Head on over to their website. Unbound marino.com and new customers can use our code pillow for 15% off your order. That's unbound marino.com use the code pillow for 15% off. So if you're watching a lot of porn for some people, not for everybody, but for some people, you may start to find that you get a little bit bored by the same things over and over again. So you start to seeking out different kinds of porn and sometimes that can be more extreme, more graphic, more novel, like different kinds of sexual acts that are being depicted to get that like same level of arousal. And it can, yeah, it can get to the point where you're really having to like seek out more and different kinds of porn to get that Same sort of effect. And that kind of leads us straight into the whole addiction issue. Porn and addiction is an incredibly thorny issue. And I want to be totally transparent with you. I'm not completely sure where I land on it. I've seen really convincing studies and arguments for saying that porn absolutely can be addictive. I've seen really convincing research and studies and opinions saying that porn is not addictive in the same sort of way that you can get addicted to drugs and alcohol. Ultimately, I don't think it really matters if we use that, like if we use that word or not is an addiction, is it not an addiction? I think the bottom line is that it is absolutely possible, and it's pretty like scarily common these days to have an unhealthy relationship with porn where it feels like you're seeking it out all the time. Like I just mentioned, you're seeking more and more intense porn. And it feels like, you know, in certain ways it's getting in the way of day to day life. You know, I've heard stories of people watching porn at work putting themselves in like dangerous situations where they could get caught and could get into trouble with it. People who feel like they're turning down times to go hang out with friends or you know, do things that would be meaningful and fulfilling in life because they just want to stay home and watch porn. And there is, you know, there is that kind of feeling of you're looking for the perfect thing to get you off, where you just kind of want to keep going through movies and like find the exact right clip and the exact right thing. Like it just can have that really compulsive type of feeling to it. So of course not everybody develops this. There are tons of people who have totally healthy relationships with porn. They watch it from time to time. It feels exciting and fun. It never feels like it gets into compulsive behavior or dangerous behavior. They always feel like they have control over it. So I'm not trying to fear monger here, but I also want to be realistic like that there definitely are people who develop really unhealthy relationships with it. Another impact that porn can have is on self esteem. And the research that I've seen here tends to be more focused on women. Men can have self esteem issues with porn too. A big one that comes up is penis size. Obviously in porn, like porn actors are very well endowed. There's like a reason why they end up becoming a porn actor. And so it can lead to these unrealistic expectations of the size of your penis of how long you're supposed to last. And there are also a lot of studies on women and self esteem showing that women feel like, you know, they're these unrealistic beauty standards, body standards, even standards around like what our genitals are supposed to look like, even what our freaking buttholes are supposed to look like. Like in porn, buttholes are always waxed and bleached and they look really nice and cute. And so it's just, you know, a lot of us women, when we see porn, and I want to be clear, like it's not just a porn thing, obviously any sort of media. When you see actresses on TV and in movies, of course, when you see the same body type over and over and over again, of course that works its way into brains and we start thinking that's the way our body is supposed to look like. But with porn, since it's, you know, fully naked bodies, there's nothing left to the imagination like that comparison effect that body image issues like that can come up even stronger than with other kinds of media as well. So I've been going through our Christmas list making sure I'm buying gifts for all of our favorite people. And there are two names on the list that I want to make sure we don't forget.

But they're not people.

No, it's Chauncey and Maggie.

They're doggos.

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Chauncey and Maggie really love using Chewy though.

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Through a lot of bully sticks.

They can get a bully stick and they are occupied for over an hour or more. Don't forget to get gifts for your pets this holiday season. Take advantage of amazing deals@chewy.com pillows that's chewy.com pillows chewy.com pillows Another big issue that I used to see a lot when I was working with clients, one on one, is porn being used as a coping mechanism or as emotional regulation. So a lot of times people will turn to porn because they don't have other ways of processing their emotions. And I saw this for people of all genders, but especially for men. And, you know, Xander and I have talked so much in so many different episodes about all the bullshit socialization that men get around their emotions, how are not allowed to be emotional. They're not supposed to feel emotions or express emotions. And so a lot of men feel deeply confused when they do feel an emotion. They don't know what to do. They don't feel like they have any healthy outlets. They're not even supposed to feel that thing in the first place. So I had a lot of male clients who would feel like any emotion, you know, angry, sad, happy, confused, anxious. And they would turn to porn to help them regulate that, to like, help them kind of numb out in a way. And porn absolutely can be a really numbing out kind of experience where you're just getting lost in what you're seeing on the screen. So a lot of men, yeah, just never learned how to process those emotions and turn to porn to, you know, to try to cope with it. But of course, then you never learn how to deal with your emotions anyways. And it can create this really unhealthy relationship where you're. You're turning to this thing to help you navigate your emotions rather than just being like a fun, sexy thing that you're playing around with. With. I also saw a lot of male clients who developed performance issues because of porn. So here's the thing. Like, when you're watching porn and masturbating, I mean, because that's what the majority of us are doing, we're not just like watching it, we're watching it and masturbating. But when you're watching it, most of your attention is on the screen, on what you're seeing. So you're not tuned into your body. And actually, ironically, watching porn masturbating a lot of times doesn't even feel like. Like sexually and physically that's satisfying because you're not tuned into your body. You're paying attention to what's on the screen. And like I mentioned a minute ago, there's also this. Like, I would have so many clients tell me, like, I'm searching for the perfect clip to finally have my orgasm to. So it's like, not only are you watching the screen, but it's like you're cycling through. Like, what about this one? What about this one? If I skip to this scene now, let me rewind to this scene. Like, you're just so engaged in the film itself. You're not paying attention to your body. So a lot of men would find it difficult to get hard without watching porn. They'd really struggle with their orgasmic timing. A lot of men would learn how to use the death grip when they masturbate. Like, they'd have to use a really tight grip and have to masturbate so intensely to like, create enough stimulation in their body to lead to orgasm. And this can be really problematic when you're then with a partner having intercourse or oral sex where like a body, a body part, an orifice can't create that same level of pressure that you can with your hand. So they would struggle to orgasm at all. A lot of men would have to like stop having sex with their partner and pull up porn and get themselves off with their hand or they would orgasm too quickly because they just never really learned how to pay attention to their body and the signals going on in their body of like, this means you're getting close to orgasm, so you need to slow down a little bit or ease up a little bit. So porn caused massive, massive perfection performance issues in my clients. That was definitely one of the biggest impacts that I would see on individual people. I'm going to talk about this more in a second. But porn also skews our expectations of sex itself. I think one of the things that we really forget is that porn is meant to be entertainment. It's not meant to be an accurate depiction of what sex looks like for the average person. Just like TV and the movies are meant to be entertainment. We see like a extreme things happening. We don't see movies about like, here's a totally mundane day in an average person's life, right? So we see porn and like, it's these extreme acts. It's really over the top. It's Way harder or way faster, just way more intense. And when you're watching it so often, it's just very easy to get into your head that, like, that's what sex is supposed to look like in real life. So it can, you know, a lot of people think that the average person is way kinkier or like sex that's like, way rougher or way more intense than in reality the average person does. So, yeah, it just really can skew expectations of what sex is supposed to look like. And this coupled with the fact that so many of us feel deeply uncomfortable talking about sex and talking about, like, what we want from our partner, what we like, what we don't like, like, this just leads to a lot of people having sex that they don't actually want to be having. So a perfect example here is, is choking. If you watch porn, it looks like everybody does choking. Like, that's just a normal part of a sexual experience. Like a little making out, a little choking, like it's. It's become a very mainstream thing to see. So I hear from so many people who say, you know, I had sex with somebody for the first time and they went to choke me. And I, you know, was not comfortable with that. I never consented to that. Like, why do people seem to think everybody's into choking these days? Like, it's just the perfect example where we think, okay, this is a normal, to be expected thing. We don't want to talk about it, we don't want to ask about it, we just go ahead and do it. And that can lead to really uncomfortable situations for a lot of people. Like with the example of choking, that actually is a pretty extreme thing that is extremely dangerous when not done properly. There actually is proper choking technique that you need to use if you want to incorporate choking into your sex life. But again, it's like porn is not teaching us that exact, you know, specific technique. It's just showing it to us in this really over the top, meant to be entertaining way. Did you know that your nighttime bedroom temperature has a huge impact on your sleep quality? If you wake up too hot or too cold, we recommend checking out Miracle Maids bed sheets. 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Like so much mainstream porn shows a lot of violence and degradation against women. And it's very easy to get it into your head that that's just women, what sex is supposed to look like. The way that porn is made is also highly problematic. Like there are definitely actors who enjoy making porn who are doing this of their own free will. And there are a lot of people who are being manipulated and pressured into the creation of porn. Of course there's sex trafficking, of course there's child porn. Like there's some horrific stuff that's being created. But even actors that are willingly agreeing to do porn, there are lots of experiences on set where maybe they don't consent to doing a specific act or they feel uncomfortable with an actor that they've been paired up to do a scene with. Like just the, you know, the day to day nuts and bolts of like filming porn. There are so many ways where it can go wrong, where someone can feel uncomfortable or violated. There's also a lot of lack of transparency in the porn issue, like actors not being paid fair rates or being pushed or manipulated into contracts, facts that don't serve them. So I can go on and on and on here, but I think I've made my point. Like my perspective is there's nothing wrong with porn, but the porn industry these days is extremely problematic and it's creating a lot of issues and it's creating a lot of pain and a lot of hurt. And that makes this topic just so much more complicated. Okay, so let's talk about porn specifically when it comes to in relationships. And I want to start with talking about some of the benefits to using porn in your relationship because again, I don't think that this is a totally black and white issue. I don't think that porn is, you know, everything's wrong with it, nobody should use it. There are for sure some benefits to it. So I really want this episode to help you navigate what role you want porn to play in your relationship. So let's talk about some of the potential benefits. It one is it's just straight up sexy. Like it can be very hot to watch porn with your partner. If you've never done it before, it can be a new novel, exciting thing. You've heard us talk before about trying new things in the bedroom is one of the great ways to keep it spicy, to keep that excitement up, to feel like there's still a spark between the two of you. So it absolutely can be fun to watch it together. Porn can also give you some good ideas of things to try out. So again, a lot of the sex that you see in porn is unrealistic and not to be emulated. But there are certain things, like maybe you see a certain sex position that you get curious about, like, oh, let's try that one out, let's see if it works for us. Maybe you see a certain sex toy or an accessory being used and it piques your curiosity. So it can give you, you know, some ideas. It can also be an interesting way to play around with fantasies too. So if you have a fantasy, maybe that your partner's not into doing, you know, personally, you could watch some porn related to that fantasy together. Porn can also help open up conversations about fantasies. So if you have something that you're wanting to talk about with your partner, but you've been too ashamed or embarrassed to just come out and say, hey, I'm kind of curious about this thing. Porn can be a way to open up a conversation. Like you watch a, oh, you just happened to watch this clip together, and it just happened to have this thing in it, and it made you think for the first time, you know, tell your partner, like, hey, I didn't think that I would be into that, but it was pretty sexy watching it. Now I'm kind of curious. So it can be a conversation opener for sure. Porn can be a great way to get in the mood, especially if you have responsive desire where you know, your body needs something to respond to before you're going to start feeling mentally interested in sex. So porn is very arousing to watch. And if you are, you know, wanting to quickly get in the mood, or maybe you struggle to get in the mood without some, you know, other stimulation, like, like, porn can be a great way to get you feeling excited and ready to go. And porn can also be a great way to balance mismatched sex drives in relationships. So whether that's like helping one partner get in the mood or it's, you know, one partner isn't open to having sex a particular night, the other partner can go watch some porn, go masturbate, take care of themselves, still feel sexually satisfied, even though their partner wasn't open to being physically intimate. So. So it can work in that way as well. Is your skin feeling drier than normal? Turns out there is a scientific reason for that, something today's sponsor, Oneskin, the first company to target skin aging at the cellular level, knows all about. 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So I'm really excited about Oneskin's products. Products, the story behind their company, their mission. Like everything about this company is just so cool. It was founded and led by an all woman team of skin longevity scientists. They are redefining the aging process with their proprietary OS1 peptide, the first ingredient proven to help skin look, feel and behave like its younger self. Get 15 off with Code Pillow at One Skin. That's 15 off OneSkin Co with Code Pillow. After you purchase, they're going to ask where you heard about them. Please support Pillow talks and tell them that we sent you. Invest in the health and longevity of your skin with One Skin. Your future self will thank you. Now let's talk about some of the potential problems and risks of using porn in your relationship. I think the biggest one is when it starts to feel like your partner is choosing porn over you. So they're choosing to go watch, go masturbate, spend time on their own instead of being intimate with you. And that can be a really problematic issue in a relationship. It's one of the most common ones that we hear about from the people in our community. People say, you know, like, yeah, I just don't understand it. It makes me feel really rejected. It makes me feel like my partner cares more about this than me. And oftentimes these are situations where the partner, you know, has developed some sort of unhealthy relationship with porn where they're compulsively seeking it out, maybe not feeling like fully in control of it, but they're choosing to like be in that virtual world rather than in the real world with their partner. Yeah, of course you can have one partner develop a problematic relationship with porn and then the other partners, you know, struggling to figure out how to support them. And that can be a tricky one too, where you're trying to navigate. I don't want to shame my partner for being turned on by people having sex. Like, that's a, you know, that's a normal thing. But I also am starting to get worried about how much they're watching it or the context in which they're watching it. I already talked about this a little bit before, but like trying to get your sex life to emulate what you see in porn. So if you're, you know, one person keeps seeing certain acts in porn and then they try to bring it into the bedroom and you're not talking about it. You know, it's just kind of can get so thorny and complicated. And then there's also the big issue of insecurity. So I put up a question box and I asked people, you know, what questions do you have about porn? How can we help? What issues is it causing in your relationship? And one of the most common ones that we got in response was it makes me feel insecure when my partner watches porn. There are a lot of layers to this issue. So, so one is the idea of your partner, like choosing porn over you. And I'm gonna get to that in a little bit later when I'll give you some specific suggestions about healthy ways to have porn in your relationship. But I wanna talk about like just the simple reality of your partner being turned on by other people. So my perspective here is that it's normal and healthy in a long term relationship to still feel attraction to other people. Like, getting in a relationship doesn't mean that we lose the function of our eyes. Like, our eyes still work, we still feel attraction to other people. And that doesn't say anything bad about the relationship. I think so many of us women, we take this really personally. Like, if my partner's attracted to someone else, we can go to this place in our heads of thinking, I'm not good enough, I'm not pretty enough, I'm not, I'm not sexy enough. My partner's more turned on by other people. We go to this like, comparison place. But I truly believe that your partner being attracted to other people doesn't say anything about you or your relationship. I can walk down the street and see somebody that I'm attracted to. That doesn't mean I'm, you know, viewing Xander in comparison to them. That doesn't mean that I don't love Xander, that I'm not attracted to Xander. It doesn't mean I'm about to. To blow up our whole relationship and chase this person down. Like, it just means I'm a human being. And being attracted to other human beings is deeply hardwired into the core of who we are. So when it comes to porn specifically, I don't think it says anything bad about you or the relationship that your partner is looking at other people feeling turned on by other people. It can get a bit thornier if you notice that your partner is looking at the same types of people in porn. So, like, a classic example that I hear about from this is a woman will say, like, my partner's always watching porn with women with huge boobs, and I have tiny boobs. And, like, I do get that in that case where there's a little bit of a fear of, well, am I not the person that my partner really wanted? Am I not their type? Are they not really attracted to me? They're kind of, like, settling for my small boobs, even though the reality is they'd rather have someone with big boobs. So I do get that. And I. I totally understand, like, feeling insecure in those kinds of moments. And at the same time, I also think, isn't that kind of a compliment in an interesting way? Like, I'm. I'll put myself in this. In this scenario, because I have smaller boobs, too. Like, let's say that Xander is just, like, a huge boob guy, and he really wishes that I had huge boobs, but he still chose to be with me, and he still loves me and is attracted to me and wants to have sex with me and my small boobs, and he appreciates my small boobs. Like, I actually think in a. In an interesting way, it's kind of a compliment. It doesn't mean anything, you know, like, that he's looking at me, and every day he's wishing, like, God damn. I just wish they were bigger. But it's kind of like, yeah, his preference might have been for me to have bigger boobs, but. But he's looking at the entirety of me as a human being. Like, what I look like and the person that I am and all of my other attributes, you know, physical and emotional and psychological, like, those mean more to him than just the big boobs. I don't know. I come over to Instagram and let me know what you Think about this. We're at Vanessa and Xander. Maybe you think I'm totally nuts and you're like, no, girl. Like, I'd be so offended if my partner was only looking at the big boob pornography, but I just think our partners see us as full human beings, not as body parts. So personally, I wouldn't get super offended if Xander was, like, only ever watching big boob porn. I gotta stop saying big boobs now. It's just sounding so funny. But that's just me personally. I don't mean that to say that you're not allowed to feel that way. Like I said a few minutes ago, I totally understand how that would bring up some insecurity of. Of like, hey, what's, you know, what's going on here? Or if, like, the people that your partner's looking at, yeah. They look wildly, wildly different from you. Of course that's going to bring up a little bit of insecurity. But one last point that I want to make on the insecurity piece of it is I don't think it's your partner's responsibility to make you feel completely secure and confident in your look looks. I think our confidence is a personal process. It's a personal thing that we each have to go through on our own. And as women, this is an incredibly difficult journey. Like, we get so many horrible messages about what we are supposed to look like, what we're allowed to look like. So many of us have really challenging relationships with our bodies, with our looks. I've been there myself. Like, I don't have a perfect relationship with my body, so I totally get it. It. And of course, it's validating to hear your partner give you compliments and talk about how attracted to you they are. And I just think that it. It can't be a hundred percent on your partner to make you feel confident. That's a you journey. So in that question box that I mentioned where we asked people like, hey, what are your questions about porn? What do you struggle with? Like, so many women were saying, I don't want my partner to watch it because it makes me feel insecure about my body. Hey, you get to have whatever rules and boundaries in your own relationship. You get to decide what things look like for yourself. But my personal opinion is I don't think that that's a great reason to give your partner. Like, I don't want you to watch porn because it makes me insecure. I think that this, the journey of us feeling secure in ourselves, like, that's such a personal journey that we all need to embark on and constantly be working on on our own. Now, I just realized when I was talking earlier about the problems with the modern porn industry, there was another point that I wanted to make that I forgot to go down. So let's kind of loop back around to that now. I wanted to talk about how porn is continuing to evolve and will likely evolve over the next few years. Nowadays, you know, I mean, for years now, we've had porn that's a lot more interactive. So it used to be that porn was this, like, kind of passive experience. You're just watching these characters on the screen. But now there are lots of other types of porn, so there are much more interactive things, like only fans, like having live chats with people. We're starting to have virtual reality porn, and AI is starting to come into porn too. Like, just a couple weeks ago, I think we had a question from somebody on Instagram about their partner sexting with AI chatbots. So there are so many more complexities with porn now. So I definitely think that couples need to talk specifically about the interactive aspect of it. So now's where I kind of get back to, like, the next point that I wanted to talk about is some specific tools for navigating porn in your relationship. You have to talk about porn in your relationship. That was another common thing in the question box that kept coming up like. Like, we've never talked about it. I don't really. I think my partner's watching porn. I don't really know. I'm not sure. How do I bring it up? Like, you guys have to talk about porn in your relationship because you have to come up with the guidelines, the boundaries, the rules in your relationship, and there's no way that you can do that without talking about it openly. So use this podcast as a conversation starter to open up conversation about what feels good for the two of you. And I do think that, like, the interactive aspect is a really important thing to talk about. So, number one, like, are you comfortable just with your partner watching porn at all? But then are you comfortable with your partner having any sort of interactive experience with porn, whether it's following an only fans account or paying for some sort of live chat or, you know, anything like that? I think that can be a really big distinction that is super important to discuss in your relationship. Next, I'm going to give you my golden rule for porn and relationships. I think one of the best things you can do is make an agreement with your partner that you will initiate with each other first before you turn to porn. This is one of the most frequent issues we hear about from people. Like, my partner just goes to watch porn. They didn't even try to initiate with me, and I would have had sex with them. I wanted to be intimate with them. Them, I want to have sex with my partner more often, but they are going, you know, into the den and watching porn and masturbating instead of being intimate with me. So I. It doesn't have to be a hundred percent of the time. There may be certain times where it's just like, you're just in the mood for masturbating. You're not in the mood for being intimate with your partner. There is a. Like, this is such a weird comparison. But you know how people always make that joke of, like, I always have room for dessert. Like, you have. You feel like you have, like, different. Different stomachs for, like a full meal versus a dessert. Like, masturbation can feel like a different type of desire. Like, where you might not feel open to, like, that intimacy of being together with a partner, but you just want to, like, quickly get yourself off. Like, I just want to have an orgasm so I can get to sleep faster, or so I can help my menstrual pain, cramps, you know, go away. So it doesn't have to be a hundred percent of the time, but like, the vast majority of the time. I do think it's a great rule to initiate with your partner first. If your partner is not into being intimate with you in that moment, then sure, go ahead and use porn. Go masturbate. You know, then it just can feel so much cleaner and simpler if you've made that request to connect with your partner first. Another good rule is to say no secrecy. So maybe, you know, each feel comfortable with each other watching porn, but just be open about it. Be open about when you're watching it, what you're watching. It just can get into problematic territory if you're hiding it, if you're keeping it a secret. It can just get so complicated, both in your own individual relationship with porn and the ways you're consuming it, and also in your relationship. So no secrecy. It can be a great little rule of thumb. Now, what do you do if you cannot agree on boundaries? So let's say one partner really doesn't want. Want the other partner to watch porn, but the other partner's like, hey, I want to have a relationship with my own sexuality. I want to be able to masturbate to have this time for myself. Like, there are a lot of couples who just can't agree on it. And in those cases, of course, therapy is just going to be the best option for you. I think it's really important to have a container, to have an objective third person there to help you navigate, like having that conversation, to understand why does one partner want to watch porn or why does one partner want to have the certain rules that they want to have. Like, if the two of you can really hear each other out, it can feel a bit easier to come to a compromise and come to an understanding between the two of you. But you definitely have to make sure that you're working with a therapist who's sex positive and who isn't going to have, you know, their own moralistic views about porn. You want somebody who's really open minded and is there to help the two of you make the rules and guidelines that feel best in your own relationship. And finally, I just want to put in a plug for consuming porn ethically. Like I said, there are so many problems with the porn industry, with the way that porn is being made. And so I really want to encourage you to be thoughtful about your porn consumption and only seek out porn that is ethically made. So there is a branch of the porn industry of people who are trying to make better porn that treats actors fairly, that creates safe workplaces, that shows diversity, different body types, different skin colors, different ability levels. Like, there are some really cool people who are trying to change the porn industry. And I highly recommend that you support ethical porn. A general, like rule of thumb is, is you got to pay for your porn. If you're getting porn for free off the Internet, it's likely that there's just been some crappy stuff that went on in the making of that. So finding a porn producer that you are going to like, support by paying for that porn and supporting them, trying to make it ethically. Now I know what you're going to ask, okay, can we get some recommendations for ethical porn producers? And I got to be honest with you, I'm not going to give any. I have had. This is where it gets so fucking tricky for me personally. Like, I have had other recommendations that I've made in the past of producers who were, you know, saying all the right things, like, so committed to this, you know, the production of ethical porn. And then it would come out later, you know, an actor was bringing a lawsuit because they felt manipulated, or they had their boundaries violated or they've been sexually abused. So that's what makes it so challenging for me as a sex therapist is I want to give people recommendations, but I also just, I personally feel let down by the industry, by even people who are saying that they are, you know, trying to make it better. So that's not to say that there aren't people out there making truly ethical porn. I believe that there are. I really, truly do. But I just don't feel comfortable recommending any particular one in, you know, in specific, which is just so freaking tough. So I just recommend, do your own research, look for ethical porn and keep checking back in on those producers, like, just Google their names every couple months and make sure there's not some sort of, you know, lawsuit or complaint coming out. It's just. It's tricky. It's a really, really tricky thing to navigate. All right, well, that wraps up this solo episode all about porn. I really miss Xander, you guys. This is hard to do. This is really hard to do a solo episode. I miss my buddy to like, bounce things off, to make me laugh, to bring some, some color commentary to the episode. So he'll be back next week. I'm sure he's going to be very, very pleased when I, I leave the room and tell him how much his presence was missed. But he'll be back. He will be back next week. But in the meantime, I wanna share with you a few ways that we would love to connect with you. So first, answer our poll on Spotify. So for every episode of Pillow Talks, we just started doing this the last couple of months, but for every episode, we create a poll that goes along with the episode. We can only do it on Spotify, so if you're not listening there, you can just pop over to Spotify and like, find the poll. But we do a specific poll for each episode. We'd love to hear your opinions. We create all of our content to meet your needs, so let us know what you think. We really take that feedback super seriously. You can also join our VIP email list. We have behind the scenes info, our best sex and relationship tips. Our funniest and most heartfelt moments happened in our email. So you can join the list by going to vmtherapy.com subscribe and we will put that in the show notes as well so you can get that link quickly. But it's vmtherapy.com subscribe and follow us on Instagram. We love connecting with you over on Instagram. We're at Vanessa and Xander, so come say hi. Let me know what you thought of this episode. Tell me how much you miss Xander. I will read him some messages. I'M sure he'll be through. I okay. And then finally I am going to read the review of the week. So we really appreciate if you take the time to leave us reviews. It's the best way to help Pillow Talks grow to reach new audiences. Of course, like, when you're looking for a new podcast, you're looking at those reviews. And so if you leave us a great review, it helps new couples think, oh, hey, this one's got great reviews. Maybe I'll check it out. So here is our review of the week. Practical, funny, helpful, five stars. I'm so glad I found this podcast. Thank you for doing what you do, Vanessa and Zander, and taking the time and energy to do it and be so vulnerable and open with your audience as well. I feel seen and that I'm not alone or weird with my issues or questions. I've listened to so many of your podcasts, have your book, and I appreciate the additional resources and guides you offer through your business. Keep up your great work. Work. Okay, so if you've never left a review before, here's what you do. You have to do it on Apple Podcasts. This is so annoying. Right? I just mentioned the Spotify thing. Now this one's only on Apple Podcasts, but reviews are only on Apple Podcasts. You go to the main Pillow Talks page, scroll to the bottom, you'll see the review section there. Just leave us a quick little review and we will automatically enter you into our Review of the Week giveaway. So every week we pick a review of the week if you hear yours read. So if you're the person who just read who had wrote the one that I just read, you can email us@infomtherapy.com and we give you a free masterclass as our way of saying thank you for taking the time to leave a review. All right, well, thank you so much for listening. Join us again next week. Xander will be back and we are going to do a very special grab Bag episode. We have a couple of different topics that you've asked us to talk about, but they weren't like big enough for a full episode, so we're going to talk about them a little grab bag episode. We're going to talk about period sex, being an internal versus an external processor and what to do if you are bisexual in a heterosexual relationship.