EPISODE 37: The Truth About Why We’re Child Free

Still, like, there's just a heaviness that weighs on me sometimes about like, oh man, what are people gonna think about us? And like, how much do I have to explain? And what kind of judgments are gonna come up? Like, it's just. It's hard. It feels heavy sometimes. Hello and welcome to the Pillow Talks podcast. We're your hosts, Vanessa and Xander Marin. I'm a sex Therapist with over 20.

Years of experience and I'm just a regular dude. We share the ups and downs in our while giving you step by step techniques for improving yours.

Make sure you subscribe for your weekly double date full of totally doable sex tips, practical relationship advice, hilarious and honest stories of what really goes on behind closed bedroom doors, and so much more. It's the sex education you wish you'd had. You're not married. Y o U r not is on all caps here. You're not married. You don't burden children. I get it. Get married for tax benefits. But don't say you're married when you don't burden children. That's the def and point of being married. Huh? Y' all sound stupeed. S T U P I E D Interesting. So this is the kind of comment that we get when we talk about the fact that we are in a child free marriage. I just have to laugh at this person calling us stupid when they could not even spell stupid correctly.

Also burden children. I mean, we are child free, so we are definitely not burdening any of our children that we don't have. I assume they mean birth children, bear.

Children, I think bear, but burden. Very different.

Also, they did it twice.

So yeah, the capitalization is wild here. Random words. Capitalized random words in all caps. I also like, that's the deaf period. They didn't want to write definition out. They just wrote that's the deaf. There's no apostrophes anywhere. Yeah, we're the stupid ones.

Also, what is the definition of marriage? I am nearly certain that children are not in that definition.

That's the only definition. You look up married in the dictionary and it just says children.

Just in case anyone is wondering, I did have to look up the definition of marriage.

The death of marriage.

The death. The death period of marriage. From Merriam Webster's dictionary, there are three definitions. One, the relationship that exists between two people who are united as spouses. The state of being married.

I think we hit that death.

We did. Number two, a ceremony in which two people are married to each other.

Hit that one too.

Number three, a close union of or between Two things. So that's like a marriage of sweet and spicy flavors, but no matter how you slice it, there are no children in that definition.

So I say huh to you, sir, and your stupid comment. Today we are talking all about our child free marriage. So we're laughing about this incredibly dumb comment that we got. But the reality is like, this is an incredibly vulnerable topic. We have talked about the fact that we don't want to have kids several times before, and we definitely have gotten a lot of really wonderful comments of people just supporting us, thanking us for being vulnerable, people who say they're in the same position. And it feels really good to hear other people talking about it openly. And we also just get a whole lot of hate. A lot of people calling us selfish, immature, how dare we? We're threatening the sanctity of marriage. It's hard. It's really hard to talk about this. And I will admit I'm feeling a little bit of trepidation about doing a whole podcast episode about it, talking about it more openly. Yeah, there's a lot of stigma around people who don't want to have kids. You know, you hear a lot of stuff about you're self centered, you're selfish, you're immature, what's wrong with you, you know, all sorts of stuff.

What are you gonna do, get older?

Oh, yeah, you're gonna regret it, aren't you? You're gonna be old in a retirement home and nobody's gonna care. Oh, yeah, we're gonna get into it today. We're gonna tell you a little bit about our journey. We're gonna talk about what we've heard from other people and other couples who are in the same place. And we're just gonna give some advice for anybody who already knows that they want to be child free or maybe people who are feeling uncertain about whether or not they wanna have kids. Before we really get into it, we just wanna be super clear. The point of this episode is really to tell our story and to be open and raw and vulnerable. The way that we try to be about every other topic that we talk about. It is definitely not to convince anybody that you should not have kids. No, we're not over on our soapbox here being like, nobody else have kids. And we're also not saying deciding to not have kids is better than deciding to have them. To us, there is no hierarchy here. We don't think we're better than other couples. We don't think other couples are better than us. We don't think there's one right decision that every couple should be making. We're just sharing our story and kind of letting you into what this journey has been like for us. Because there have been some ups and downs to it.

Oh, yeah.

But yeah, just to be super clear, this is not meant to convince anybody to feel the way that we feel, right?

Oh, yeah. No. We have never talked about being child free with anyone in terms of trying to convince them as to why they should do it. I think it's really easy to fall into that trap of being like, the way that I live is the best way to live in every. Everybody else needs to live the exact same way. The reality is, if we all lived in the exact same way, that would probably create some problems in the world.

Absolutely.

Before we get into talking about ourselves, why we are doing what we are doing, we want to give you the review of the week. This week. Was I living under a rock? And there is a rock emoji. I think this is actually a symbol. I can't remember what they're called, but the little rock faces from Easter Island.

Stonehenge.

No, sorry, Vanessa. They're from Easter Island. Do you know where Easter island is? Do you know where Stonehenge is?

Somewhere in Europe.

Can't give me a country.

England.

There you go.

Okay. We were just making so much fun of people on Instagram for thinking that Alaska is an island, but I gotta admit, I knew Alaska was not an island, but my geography is not good.

Yeah.

Okay, so where's Easter Island?

Easter island is a very small island off the coast. Isn't really the right terminology because it's quite far, but it's sort of off the coast of South America, like Chile. It's. It says like a South Pacific. Yeah. When you hear South Pacific you think like tropical. It's not super tropical. It's a kind of desolate island. Oh my God.

We are going on a tangent here from this one freaking emoji.

Yeah, well, you know, the reason why I know a lot about it is because there is good surf there. And there was like a whole write up when, when I was a kid in one of the surf magazines I used to subscribe to, there was a whole long form article written about the waves on this island. So there are some very distinctive, very large stone head there. A lot of them. It's worth looking up if you're curious.

So what is stone? Is it stone hedge or henge?

Henge.

Henge. It's just the big rocks, like in a circle, right? Yeah, but I thought they were the ones that had the faces on them.

No, no, that's on Easter Island.

Easter Island. Okay. You know what else it is? It's like Legends of the Hidden Temple. Nickelodeon.

See, I wasn't allowed to watch TV when I was a kid. I have no idea. I have no idea what you're talking about.

I managed to see great.

You managed more than I did. Thanks, Mom. If you're listening. All right, so the rest of the review is how you know she's listening. Yep.

Hi, Mom.

Hi, Mom. Thanks for not letting me watch tv. It really kind of put me behind with a lot of friends. I missed a lot of social opportunities freshman year in college especially. I had nothing to relate with my new friends about.

Oh, he didn't know what Legends of the Hidden Temple was.

All right, how have I just found this podcast? First episode I heard is the New Year's episode, and I'm hooked and listening to every episode from the beginning. Now, then, there's, like, a shell emoji. Maybe this is, like, one of those big conch shells or whatever that you can, like, blow the heart.

That's definitely. That's a little shell. That's a little baby shell.

Hard to tell in emoji form. It could be big, could be small as an emoji. It's just small. I got my boyfriend to listen, and now I'm excited for all our future sex talks. Then there. It's a cucumber that has been halfway chopped up. I hope your sex talks don't involve cutting up a penis and then a half a coconut. I'm not sure if there's something sexual about this coconut or not. Did I stump Xander enough that they literally wrote that? No, you didn't. I got this.

The confidence. Wow. If you have not heard us talk about this yet, we do a review of the week. Every single week. We pick a review to be our winner. If you are the winner, you can DM us on Instagram at Vanessa Marin Therapy, and we will give you a free mini personalized coaching session so you can ask us a question, tell us about your situation, and we will respond to you privately. We have this fun little added element of the competition, which is try to stump Xander with some obscure emojis. And I think the Easter island head emoji was. That was a good one.

Yeah, that was good. I did not know that existed. I'm curious what it's called as an emoji, but I won't go down that rabbit hole right now.

I think we spent enough time talking about rocks, and my bad Geography. So let's get back into it. So, as always, we asked our Instagram audience a couple of questions about our topic of the week. First, we just wanted to get a general sense of does our audience have children? Already 70% of our audience has kids. Of those 30% who don't want kids, we asked, which one describes you the best? Do you want kids? You're undecided, or you don't want kids?

And don't want kids is like, we have decided.

Yeah, already decided that we don't want to have them. And we really wanted to focus on the desire here. So we heard from some couples who are struggling with infertility, and they're like, where do I fit in here? We said, we're just talking about what your desire is. The logistics of it is for another episode, but just what's the desire that you have? So 62% of people who do not currently have kids, 62% of them want them, 23% are undecided, and only 15% already know that they do not want to have kids. Then we asked people to explain a little bit of their thought process behind why they were deciding not to have kids. We were really careful not to say reasons because we didn't want anybody to feel like they had to justify themselves. Have to explain myself, how dare you? So we just ask, what are your thought processes about this? By far and away, the most common one was, I just don't have the desire.

Or like, I thought that I would want kids. And then the desire never hit me. Also, people mentioned, I enjoy my freedom, I enjoy my blank. Whether that's like being financially independent, living by myself, I enjoy being able to have a career that's uninterrupted, whatever it was.

We also heard a fair number of people describe themselves as being selfish. This one was interesting to us because it made me think, do these people genuinely feel that they are selfish? If that's the case, I think that's some good insight. Yeah. Great. Not to bring a kid into the world if you feel like you genuinely are a selfish person. But it did also make me wonder, like, have we heard this story that people who choose to be child free are selfish? Have we heard this so many times that some people have just internalized that? Yeah, man, I guess if I don't want kids, I must be a horrible, selfish person. We also heard people mention global issues, world issues, things like climate change, overpopulation, rising costs of, you know, living. In particular, this seems to be more of a concern to people who are younger there's sort of this sense from young people of like, I already was born into such a shit show of the world, a world, like, why would I even want to bring another generation into this world?

In a similar vein, people talked about struggling with mental health issues or having a genetic health condition, like an autoimmune disorder, where they just said, you know, I've really struggled in my life and I would not want to bring someone else into this world who might struggle with a similar thing.

And finally, we heard from a fair number of people who said that they're still really struggling with having a bad relationship with their family or still working through some childhood trauma. And there was just a sense of, like, there's too much going on. I don't want to bring another life into this. Or sometimes it was even, you know, I feel doubtful of whether or not I would be able to create a healthy family environment because I never had a great example of it.

It's like, I'm still working on myself. I'm still getting myself to a point where I am good with me. Like RuPaul says, if you can't love yourself, how the hell are you going to love somebody else?

Good old Ru. So let's talk a little bit about our story.

Yes.

You and I individually grew up our entire lives thinking that we were absolutely going to have kids.

Probably like most people in this world growing up, you came into this world because your parents had kids. You were raised in a way where you're probably told you're gonna do this too.

Yeah. We both had siblings. I had two siblings. I loved being a little pack of three. I loved having siblings. I loved the idea of, like, having multiple kids and just having that kind of, like, built in best friend kind of dynamic. I loved kids in general, too. Every summer I was a camp counselor or babysitting or a math tutor, piano teacher, all that kind of stuff. Like, I just loved working with kids. You know, I would. I would always daydream about, like, my eventual family and what are my kids gonna look like and how fun is it gonna be and having grandkids. So it was always something that I assumed would be a part of my life, and I was genuinely excited about it. I mean, I'm sure there was also this sense of like, yeah, that's like what you're supposed to do.

You.

You grow up and you get married and you have kids. But there also was, like, a genuine excitement that I felt about having a family.

So that's interesting hearing you talking about that genuine excitement, because it made me kind of think back. I'm actually not sure that I ever had a genuine excitement about it. It was just an assumption that this is what was gonna happen. This is what you do.

Did you ever, like, visualize your future family or think about how many kids would you want or what would be fun things that you would do with them?

Well, you and I kind of talked about how I had a preference for having two kids because that's how I grew up.

Yeah.

And so I guess I always just assume that, but I don't think I ever visualized it too much. I'm not sure that I really did visualize, like, stuff that I would do with my kids.

Okay. Yeah, I definitely did. And, yeah, I had these really great visions of a family and of my siblings having kids and just getting our kids together and going on family trips. Like, it was a very. Yeah. Very involved, detailed imagining that I would do. So Xander and I, like, we talked about this very openly when we were dating, as we were getting serious. Not like, first date. How many kids do you want to have? But as we started getting serious, you know, we talked about kids. We made sure we were on the same page about it.

But it was always very far off because Vanessa and I met when, what, 23 and 24 or 22. 22. I was 22 years old. I was not. I was. I never. Never envisioned that I would have kids at that age. I guess maybe I had this idea that, like, 28, 30, 32 would kind of be the range where it might happen. No reason to, like, rush into it in your 20s.

Yeah. I think that we talked about it in, like, around 30.

Yeah.

You know.

Yeah. My mom was fairly old at the time when she had me. I think she was 36 and back in the mid-80s. That was sort of the upper end of what was safe.

Mm. My mom was young. She was, like, 26. Well, I think probably that was kind of around the.

But you were. You were the first. You were the first.

Yeah, I was the first. So, yeah, I mean, we talked about it, and it was even in our vows when we got married, too. Like, both of us talked about that. We. You know, I said something about, I'll be the mother to your children.

And mine was kind of a joke because Vanessa was very firm on, like, yeah, I really want three kids. And I. We kind of. It was a bit of a back and forth because I was like, oh, three sounds like too much. Like two. One to two. Like, two, I think, is the magic number. But, you know, of course, we're just coming from our own experiences. You know, what did we really know in my vow as I was talking about how much I love Vanessa and how much I'm committed to her and how open I would be to even having three children? And it was funny at the time, it felt really good to say that because we had just kind of been jokingly arguing about it for a while. Not arguing. I mean, just like, bantering. Yeah, bantering about it. There we go. I was like, what's the word for, like, a fun, playful argument. Yeah. It felt really nice being like, I am so happy with you. I'm so committed to you. I will have three kids with you.

We dated young. We got married young, too. We were 26 and 27 when we got married. And so it was this idea of, yeah, we've got a couple of years. And I think we really liked that, too. We wanted to have the experience of being married and not, like, immediately rush into being parents. And so it just felt like, oh, yeah, we're going to have a couple of years to, like, just be married and, you know, be this married couple, and then we'll have kids in, like, four or five years. Yeah.

We really felt no rush because I think amongst our friends, we were some of the first to get married.

Yeah. So there wasn't that sense of, like, oh, my God, everybody's already having kids. It felt like there was just tons of time. You know, we sort of said, okay, let's just keep checking in about it and let's see when the time feels right. But again, it was absolutely this assumption that this was going to happen, but.

After a number of years. Yeah, neither of us wanted to worry about it very much. It was like, let's continue on with our careers, travel to grad school. Yeah, let's live our life, and then the desire will hit us, Right?

Yeah. I mean, that's what we. We had always heard. You know, people had always told us, when you're ready, you're going to know that you're ready. And I remember, I have always loved kids. I freaking love kids. But I have never been a fan of babies. Babies are just like, I never thought that they were super cute. I never wanted to, like, have a baby. I never wanted to be pregnant. I'm so short that I was always like, when I'm pregnant, I'm just going to fall over. Like, I'm not going to be able to keep myself upright.

Oh, yeah. I remember you also being like, I'm going to be such a Handful for you.

I'm going to be.

I'm going to hate you.

I was never. Yeah, I was never even, like, as a little girl, you know, I never had fantasies about being pregnant. It was always kids, once they hit three or four years old, like, I love Game On. Yeah, Game On. But I never dreamed about being pregnant, and I never felt, like, excited about being pregnant. I think I always felt the sense of, like, ugh, I'm not going to like it, but it'll be worth it to have the kids later.

Does it kind of sound like Michael Scott? Who wants, like, what was it like? I want 50 kids. So I have, like, 50 best friends, and no one can ever tell me they don't want to be my friends.

You know, I remember telling that to friends, and people would tell me, like, oh, when you're ready, like, babies are going to become irresistible. Like, you're just going to want to hold them and, like, smell them, and, like, you're just going to have baby fever. Like, you will feel it kick in.

I definitely heard that a lot as well. At the time. I think I was working at Google. I worked in hr, which I guess corporate HR is relatively female heavy. So there were a lot of. I worked with a lot of women in their late 30s, early 40s who had just had kids or had kids who were growing up. And I heard that a lot. Baby fever. Like, whenever someone had a new baby, it was like, oh, my God, I want to hold your baby. I want to smell your baby. And like, I.

Something about smelling. I feel like people always talk about that. Like, the smell of babies.

Yeah, yeah. My. My manager was always telling me, she's like, man, when someone brings a new baby in here, it just does something to me. It was like, whoa, whoa. It's in the air.

So. So we were waiting, you know, we were really waiting for that sense of, like, okay, when we're ready, we're gonna know, and we'll start having those conversations. I do remember hitting 30 and thinking, like, okay, here we go into my 30s now. Like, it's gonna happen soon. And I remember waiting and waiting and waiting and waiting, and that desire just never kicked in, you know, that babies never started to seem irresistible to me. I probably only sniffed a couple of babies.

Yeah.

But we did.

We did have a couple of friends at that point that had just had a child, I think. And so part of it was like, okay, well, we're gonna see, like, them have a baby, and we're gonna go meet their baby. It's gonna, like, Activate something in us.

Yeah.

And then it didn't.

It didn't. Yeah, it really didn't. We didn't get that sense of, like, yeah, we really want to do it. Let's do it. Let's make a baby together. Let's have kids. Like, it just never kicked in. And I think also one other thing I didn't mention is, like, as a woman, you know, you hear so much about the biological clock once you get to a certain age. Like, your clock starts ticking. And I think I just had this expectation that it was gonna feel, like, this primal urge inside of me of, like, I have to do it kind of thing. And I just never felt that kick in either. So it was like the primal, biological aspect of it never kicked in, but also, like, the mental aspect of, like, I want to get pregnant, and I want to have a family, and I want to have little kids running around. Like, that just. Just never kicked in. What do you remember from that period of time? When do you remember any early inkling stages of starting to think, like, maybe this is not gonna be our path?

Well, it was after maybe the first or second, going to see the baby of our friends who just had had a baby, like, just feeling really awkward, like, holding.

Oh, my God. Holding the baby, being.

And kind of just like, coming away from that interaction, being like, huh, maybe I don't want to do this.

I remember watching you hold the baby, and that was another thing that people always talked about is, like, when you see your partner holding a baby, it's irresistible. And I remember looking at you holding that baby, and I was like, this is so awkward. I could tell you didn't want to be holding the baby. You didn't know how to hold it. I think you felt worried that you were going to drop it. But it was also just this. Like, it wasn't. I think sometimes people like, oh, my God, I'm so scared. I'm so nervous to drop it. But, like, I'm so excited to be holding it. At the same time, like, there was a complete discomfort and, like, all over your face, all over your body, like, it was just like. It was like, I don't want to offend my friends and be like, can you take this back now? But it was a very. Like, I am. This doesn't feel right.

And I think I kind of witnessed the same thing with you. Like, we both came out of a couple of those interactions being like, like, whoa, that was weird.

Yeah.

That didn't go the way that we thought it would.

Yeah. And I just Want to be perfectly clear again, we are not saying that being child free is the decision for every couple. We never were judgmental of our friends. Like, oh, my God, I can't believe they had babies. Like, we were so thrilled for them. We've had now we've had a lot of friends who have had babies. And, like, we're just so happy for every friend that we have. And we see how happy they are. We see how hard it is, too. And we see, like, how absolutely thrilled they are to, like, be parents. So no judgment there whatsoever.

Yeah. If anything, early on, if we felt any judgment, it was towards ourselves. Like, I guess we're not ready yet. I guess we're gonna wait a couple years. I guess something might be wrong with us.

Yeah. One other thing that I remember is when we got Winston.

Yes.

Our puppy.

Oh, yes.

Yeah. And that was actually. That was before we got married. The year before we got married, we adopted Winston, our little pug Pupp. I remember, like, you know, I was so excited to get him. I was not allowed to have a dog growing up. So, like, having a dog with your.

Dad and his fake dog. Allergy.

Allergy that disappeared once the kids moved out of the house.

Oh, yeah. He happily has a dog who lies all over him now. No problems.

Yeah. So I was so excited to get a dog. I've definitely daydreamed about a puppy my entire life, much more than I daydreamed about having a baby. But I remember, like, when we got him, I was so excited and loved him so much, and he's just the perfect little boy. But I also remember thinking, like, this is so fucking hard. This is so much harder than I thought it would be. And this is just a dog. This is not a child. I can leave him home alone. I didn't have to birth him. I didn't have to be pregnant with him for nine months. It's just a dog. But this is so hard, you know, when we got him, I was in grad school, and so I assumed dog rearing responsibilities because Xander was working corporate job like, 9 to 5. And I was like, well, you know, I'm only in school. I'm only going for a few hours and then I'm home. So I will, you know, I'll watch him, I'll train him and raise him. And I remember being shocked by how quickly resentment started creeping in of, like, I'm doing everything for this fucking dog.

Yeah.

And I remember thinking about, like, man, would this be the same with a kid? That I would start feeling Resentful of Xander, of, like, I'm doing. Doing more and start score keeping. And, like, again, you know, not trying to compare a dog to a child. I know people can get very offended by that sometimes. So I want to be really clear that I'm not. But, like, there was this recognization. Recognition, Recognition, My God, there was this recognition of this is just a dog, not a child. But, like, this is so hard. I don't know if I. I'm cut out for this, honestly.

At least not yet. And, you know, we kind of were like, okay, well, this dog is enough for right now. Let's lean into being dog parents. And, you know, the urge will probably hit us. But as we were saying before, the years were going by and not much was happening, I think another big part of it, we had some really, really honest conversations with some friends of ours who had gotten pregnant, were having kids. We're really lucky because of what we do now at that point in time, it was because of what Vanessa did as a sex therapist. Friends have always felt really comfortable just, like, being honest, being honest, talking about, like, what they're struggling with personally, what they're struggling with sexually, what they're struggling with, you know, in terms of having kids or just at work. You know, Vanessa being a psychotherapist, she's disarming. People are like, oh, I can. I can. I can tell her anything. And at that point in time, and I wasn't part of the business, but it was just like, oh, and, you know, Xander's a good listener. He can just. Just sit there and hear all this. And we were really lucky to be privy to some super honest conversations with people about what their experience was. And I think that not a lot of people get exposed to those conversations about how truly challenging it can be.

And I think that's so harmful, you know, And I think it's really rare for people to have those kinds of open conversations. I think there's so much judgment around parents, you know, so much pressure to be perfect and do everything right, that I think a lot of people don't feel permission or the safety to be honest about the fact that parenting is really fucking hard. And, like, even parents who love their children a thousand percent, if they could make the decision over again whether or not to have kids, they would absolutely still decide to have kids. And it's still really fucking hard. And I think that there's just. Yeah, we haven't created enough containers for people to be able to talk about that openly. So I think a lot of conversations with friends. You know, people will say, like, oh, it's amazing. It's incredible. It's the best thing you'll ever do. You have to do it. It's wonderful. And, like, that is absolutely true. And it's really fucking hard. And I'm just so grateful to now pretty much all of our friends who have had kids who have been really honest with us and saying, like, yes, I love my child. I would make this decision. I'm so happy with it. And I'm really struggling in this way. Our relationship has been affected in this way. My mental health, my body, like, you know, they've been really open and honest with us, and I think their willingness to be so vulnerable and to share so much with us has given us a fuller picture of, like, this is the decision in front of us. Is it something that we want to make or a decision that we don't want to make? So I'm just really grateful to that, and I wish that we could have more open conversations like that. That.

Yeah. Now that we're a little bit older, the conversations that we have don't go quite like this, but back then, when we were kind of in our, I think, our late 20s or so, a lot of what we heard from a number of people was like, I'm not saying if I could go back and do it again, that I would decide to not have kids, But a lot of people are like, if I knew what I know now, I would have waited a couple more years.

Yeah.

Or I would have. We would have done this. I would have wanted to go on these four trips. I would have wanted to get that other job or something like that. Of just, like, I could have waited a couple more years and done a couple more things, and I might not be able to ever do those things again.

Yeah, yeah, we were having those kinds of conversations. We were also feeling, like, just very satisfied with our lives at that point. And that has been the case for all of these years. It's just this feeling of our lives feel happy and full and rich and satisfying and adventurous now. Like, there's not this sense of. Of we're missing something. I think that's something I hear a lot of people is like, you know, I'm missing the puzzle piece. There's. There's one piece of my life, Miss. And it's not even necessarily like, something is missing. My life is so terrible. It could be like, my life is full and great, and there's something missing, you know, but we never got that sense. It just felt like, we're happy with what our lives look like right now. We're deeply satisfied, so why change anything?

Yeah. And it kind of always felt like there was more ahead of us. It wasn't. You know, I think that many people sort of reach this point where it's like, okay, what next? Okay, kids. And I guess for us, it. It just felt like there was always something else. You know, you were getting licensed to be a psychotherapist, that you were growing your business. I was looking to make some career moves. We would like to live in Europe for a couple of years. And there was stuff that we were looking forward to. And then, you know, each thing we did and there were more things that we were looking forward to, it never felt like we got a point of we're stuck in a routine, and, like, what can we do to, like, add to this?

Yeah, absolutely. So I think as. As the years went by, you know, we started thinking of lots of other, smaller reasons why just didn't feel like the greatest fit for us. But, you know, it was more of this general sense of, like, we just love our lives now. We love our relationship. It doesn't feel like we need anything else right now. And I think to me, like, the most important thing that I just kept coming back to was this idea that I believe every child deserves to be wanted, truly and deeply wanted. Like, I really think it's such a tremendous thing to bring a new life into the world. And my hope for, like, every child out there is to have parents who deeply, deeply wanted them. I just think that that's. That's a gift that you have to be able to give to your kid, like, your child deserves that they deserve to feel wanted. And there were a lot of ups and downs for us. There were a lot of points along the road where I thought, are we making the wrong decision? Should we be doing this? I don't know. I just kept coming back and rooting myself in. That idea of, do I actively want a child? That was my cornerstone question that I just kept asking myself, and the answer was just always no.

And I think it could very well have been different if one of us started feeling like we actively did want to have a child. Like, I think that both of us were possibly somewhat on the fence or willing to be influenced by the other. And the reality was, each time we checked in, it would be like, huh, okay, yeah, I'm not really feeling it right now. And then, like, you'd say the same thing. So it'll be like, okay, well, then let's just. Just keep going with this. You know, I think that if you had come to me and said, you know what? I really want to have a kid, I could have gotten myself on board with that. And I. I imagine that maybe you would have been able to, too. But in our case, it was like, okay, neither of us is having an active desire. Neither of us is definitely not having a strong desire. So why would we want to do something that neither of us are actively wanting to, that we're actively excited about?

Yeah. And I think we're incredibly lucky in that regard that, like, you know, we were both so clear about wanting to have kids when getting married. And, like, I'm so glad that we both changed our mind about that, because that could have been absolutely gut wrenching if I decided I really wanted to. And you were still like, no, I. I don't think so.

That's funny, because I was just like, you know, I think I would have gotten on board with you, and you could have gotten on board with me. And you're like, yeah, we could have broken up, too.

Yeah. No, I mean, I can see an alternate universe where one of us, you know, swayed the other one into doing it. And I could also see a universe of one of us saying, like, you know what? This is really a deal breaker for me. Like, I want to have kids. And I know that that's what happens for a lot of couples, that they get to this kind of crisis point where they realize, like, we can't continue with this relationship. So I'm really, really fortunate that we both changed our minds, you know, and feel the same way about it. You know, we sort of had this, like, coming out process to each other of having to, like, tiptoe around. At first it was like, you're not. You're not ready. Right? Now's not the time. Right. Yeah.

But it's like, we're punting. We're punting, you know, okay, yeah, we'll come back in a year and talk about it again. But I have a feeling that both of us may have had more of an idea earlier on. It felt vulnerable and scary to just immediately come out and be like, ooh, I think I don't want to have kids. Because the assumption is that in a relationship, like, one or both partners pretty soon are gonna want to. And it's like, oh, it's a red flag if someone doesn't want to have kids, or, like, that's gonna drive a wedge in your relationship. It's gonna cause you to break up or to Divorce. And so I'm thinking, like. Like, I gotta be careful with this, you know? Okay. Thank God we're both still not feeling ready, so we can put it off a year. Put it off a year?

Yeah.

But it felt really good when we both were able to just get really honest and be like, you know what? I think I'd be okay just not ever having kids.

Yeah. Okay, so let's talk a little bit about how we've managed this with our family.

Oh, yeah.

Because we, you know, we also talked to our families about the fact that we wanted to have kids. And that was sort of the plan when. In the early, early stages of our relationship and when we were getting married and all of that.

And I think that's always the assumption with family. You're gonna have kids, Right. You got married. What comes after marriage? Kids.

Yeah. That's the societal expectation. That's the story that we have of how our lives are supposed to unfold. And so we, like, we were good. You know, I'm putting that in little air quotes. Like, we got married and we did it young. And, like, you know, okay, we're on board. Both sets of parents were definitely excited about having grandkids and, like, vocalized that not ever in a pressuring, like, when are you guys gonna get to it? But, like, in a. Like, I'm excited to have grandkids. Right.

And we are both the oldest children. And so the funny thing is that kind of ended up being both a blessing and a curse because we're the oldest children. So there's probably the assumption that we would have kids quickest.

Yeah.

Then again, we ultimately used that to our advantage a bit as well.

Yeah. Yeah. We had to have kind of a coming out process with our families that was slow at first. I think we were just sort of started talking about, like, yeah, we're not sure we're ready. We're thinking about maybe we wouldn't. Maybe we would. We're not sure. And then eventually it probably took us a couple of years to like, finally just come out and say, you know what? We're not gonna have kids.

Yeah, it definitely did. I think when we. We wanted to be. Be really sure when we said that to our parents.

Yeah. It's a hard conversation to have with your parents. I mean, all of the parents have taken it well, and they've never made us feel like terrible people or like, you're depriving me of grandkids. Like, I know a lot of other couples have had it so much harder than we have.

Us Being the first children made it a bit easier because I think for both of our parents, it was kind of like, maybe they won't, but who's next in line?

Yeah, but I know, like, you know, I'll speak to my parents. I know that my parents definitely. There's a sadness around it of, like, oh, you know, we're not gonna have grandkids from them, and as of now, they. They don't have any grandkids. You know, all three of us are married and kind of in different stages of our own journeys. But I think that there's, you know, my parents are starting to get older, and I definitely think, you know, I feel a sadness around, like, is it gonna happen? It's gonna happen, right? But I've got. Yeah, I've got two other siblings who are. Are likely going to have kids.

I think it's gonna happen pretty soon. For one of them.

For one of them. But, yeah, it was. It was a sad thing to share with them. There was definitely a sadness that came up for me.

It was more challenging than I expected with my parents. I don't think I'd really ever heard my parents express too much how much they wanted to be grandparents. And it was as soon as we actually did share that more final decision, you know, we had a couple conversations where they expressed a lot of sadness and grief, and I really appreciate them for that. We're about to talk about grieving in a little bit, and I'm really glad, you know, I actually. I really appreciate the way they modeled that discussion for me in a way, like, where they just were able to be like, hey, some sadness is coming up. I'm feeling sad about the grandparent I will not get to be for your kids that you're not gonna have.

Well, and I think your situation is a little more challenging than mine because your one and only sibling is pretty clear that she's not gonna have kids either. So I've got two other siblings who are probably gonna step up to the plate and take that on, but, like, there's a extremely high probability that your parents are never gonna be grandparents. Yeah, that's. It's such a tough. Yeah, it's a tough space to hold where I think I agree with you that they did a really great job of, like, it's expressing their sadness and having their feelings without making us feel like we needed to change our lives for them. Like, there was no sense of guilt or, like, are you sure? But no, you really should. You know, that's one of the hardest aspects of the human experience. Right. To like make space for sets of conflicting feelings, you and me, you know, because there's a weird dynamic of it too, of like being the daughter in law. Like, I, I don't know, there's like a very old, like, you know, isn't that my job supposed to be. And there's that bearer of children for them.

Yeah. And there's the stereotype that like the woman is going to want to have the kids sooner.

What was my dow?

Than the man. And you know, it's like, well, isn't it your job to get baby fever and then like convince my son that he's going to impregnate you?

Yeah. And so I feel, you know, again, not from any pressure or guilting of your parents, but like I do feel a little bit like I've like let them down in a very. I know, I'm just like laughing because I'm sure your parents will listen to this and I know your parents will be like, we don't want you thinking about it in these old fashioned, paying a dowry to create the air kind of terms. But there is a little bit of that feeling to it. But yeah, I mean, I think they are allowed to have their feelings and those feelings make perfect sense and I understand those feelings completely. To make the space for those and for us to hold the space for. And that's not what we want and we're not going to do it. To just like sit in that space of like all those feelings. It's hard, it's a lot. But I think we're all doing it.

Yeah. Well, should we talk just for a moment about sort of the coming out to everybody else? Not each other, not family. You know, I think that was possibly a little bit easier.

Oh really?

Maybe, maybe not. I mean, I think, yeah, I definitely get some pressure from some of my friends who are having babies now. Hey, like, wouldn't it be nice for us to be able to get our kids together? And it would, it would, it would be so nice. It would be a really great way to bolster that friendship, you know, as two dads and who doesn't want to see like their kids, you know, their kids be friends and like we're best friends from college and our kids are friends and we get to hang out while the kids are playing.

Yeah. We have two sets of friends who, the guys are like best friends and they had kids, kids within like three weeks of each other, you know, so it's like those, those are built in best friends, those babies, like those families are going to be connected for life. And, like, to be going through all those milestones together, Like, I totally felt this twinge of, oh, I want to be a part of that party. Like, I feel left out.

Yeah, definitely. Definitely. I mean, that's. I. I struggle with that type of sort of FOMO or sometimes even, like, social anxiety that's going to make them closer. And what about you like me? Like, how. What am I gonna do? And I think this is. It's a healthy thing for me to deal with, to see that and be like, okay, I have some feelings coming up. It's okay for me to feel uncomfortable. I'm gonna let myself feel that rather than being like, oh, my God, this is so uncomfortable. What am I gonna do to change this? Yeah, oh, I'm gonna have a kid.

Well, I will say our friends have all been incredible. Like, we've never gotten shamed or guilted or anything by all of our friends. They have been so respectful of our decision. They haven't felt like we're judging them for their decision. It's just been totally chill. But what has been more complicated is making new friends, acquaintances, stuff like that. People will always ask, oh, you're married, Great. You guys have kids. And especially as we've gotten older, just saying, no. It's like, you definitely get looks. Oh, and you can. You can see people trying to figure out in their heads, like, oh, maybe they're. They're probably, like, infertile, and they're like, you know, can't have kids. There's probably some horrible, sad story behind it. Or like. Or were they one of those freaks who doesn't want to have kids? Like, you can see people's wheels turning for sure.

What I have come to start saying to people is, no, we don't have any kids now, and we don't have any plans to. And I have found that that tends to, you know, phrasing it that way, it preempts a lot of those questions. Because I'm saying actively, we do not plan to have kids. It's not that I can't. It's not that she won't let me or whatever. It's just like, we are not planning to.

You know, we were just in a group of people over the holidays where we were meeting some new people, and there were some old friends that we hadn't seen in a really long time. And I remember you saying that line, and I felt really different vibes from the women and the men. It was a. It was all heterosexual couples. The guys, like, it just seemed like, okay, cool. And I could just feel the women in particular. There was, like, a woman that I had never met before. I could, like, feel her tense up, you know, with this sort of like. Like, no plans to. What's that all about? Kind of thing.

How dare she?

You know, we've been talking about this since the beginning. Like, there's a lot of judgment around couples who decide not to have kids. And it's sometimes it's really painful and hard to navigate that even on, you know, we do ask us anything. Sundays on Instagram. And every single week, without fail, there are at least hundreds. There's probably hundreds. Yeah. But questions like, when are you gonna have kids? Why don't you have kids? Do you want to have kids? Kids? Even when people, like, phrase it really nicely. Like, I think people have gotten more sophisticated about this now, and they're like, don't answer this if this is too personal. I'm just curious. Do you want to have kids or do you not want to have kids? So people are framing it more as, like, do you want to? Rather than like, when are you going to? But still, like, it. There's just a heaviness that weighs on me sometimes about, like, oh, man, what are people gonna think about us? And, like, how much do I have to. To explain? And what kind of judgments are going to come up? Like, it's just. It's hard. It feels heavy sometimes.

And I can definitely acknowledge that there is a gender aspect to this as well, where it is so much easier for me as a man to just say, no kids, no plans, too. And people are just like, cool, that's awesome. That's awesome for you. And I. I. I am. I can see how that is not the experience that you get to have.

Have. Yeah. People, like, what's wrong with her? Like, where's her maternal instinct? You know, that's what her purpose is.

Yeah. Or like, yeah, like, what's wrong with her body? When in reality, it could be just as much a problem with my body.

I know that comes up a lot with infertility that people make the assumption that it's the woman's fault.

Should I just be like, I shoot blanks?

Yes, yes, please.

No shame. I'd be like, you know, I had the. I had the snip snap a couple too many times pulling a Michael Scott.

Snip snap, snip snap.

Do you know the emotional toll it.

Takes on a man? Okay, so let's go really heavy now. Let's talk about the grief that comes up around deciding not to have kids because I think this is something that we really don't hear talked about. I think, you know, a lot of couples who decide to be child free feel so defensive of their decision and so on guard because of all the judgments that we get. A lot of couples feel like they just have to like root into like I don't want them. And I'm 100% sure. And I think what often gets left out of the conversation is that there is a huge grief that goes along with deciding to be child free.

Oh yeah, 100%.

You and I have done a really good job of allowing ourselves to feel that grief, which I'm really, really grateful for because I don't know what life would look like if we didn't acknowledge that there's absolutely a grief that comes up with knowing that we are not going to have kids. Like there are again, like I was saying earlier, like, I never felt the desire for babies, but I fucking love kids. I think about all those milestones that I'm not gonna get to experience with a kid. You know, we do these stories on Instagram sometimes of like funny shit your kids say. And like those are some of my favorite stories. Like it just brings me back to my camp counselor days of like these fucking little seven year old absolute weirdos. Like the stuff that comes out of kids mouths is so funny. And I just think about like all these funny little moments that I'm gonna miss out on. I know that our kids, we would have great kids and I know we would be amazing parents. Parents. We would be amazing parents and we would raise wonderful little human beings. Like our kids would be so cool. I'm sad that I don't, I won't get to meet them.

Yeah, same here. I mean, I think that it maybe took me, maybe I had some delayed grief. I think those a while where it still just felt like not real. Like the decision to not have kids versus and part of it I think was that I still was like young enough where it was like, oh well, it could change. Recently I've definitely had a couple more experiences than I usually do of really feeling that grief. Seeing an interaction between like a dad and a kid and being like, oh yeah, I am not going to get to have that in that way. There's a way that I can have, have experiences like that. I can still have connections with kids. I can, you know, hang, you know, I can, you know I can.

The creepy dude hanging out at the. Don't go to any parks by yourself. Don't Try to go to Legoland by yourself.

No, that's illegal. But I can be that, you know, cool, cool uncle for our friends, kids. But actually, the funny thing it came up with, we were just on a. On a vacation and I went surfing a couple of times on this vacation and there were two. Two different days that you. From where we were staying to take a boat, to go surfing. And like, there were two different dads and different kids, two different days. And just kind of like, seeing their interactions and, like, part of me will be like, yeah, it would be. It would be so awesome to get to teach my kid to surf and, like, to surf with them and to see them excited about that and. And, yeah, I'm not going to get to do that. That with one of my kids.

Yeah. I mean, I. I think about, like, what it would be like to see you as a dad. Oh. And I know that would be, like. It would be, you know, really beautiful. And I know it would just, like, make me feel like, you know, my heart was gonna explode. Like, just seeing. Getting to see you in a different light. Like.

In case you're wondering, we're both crying a little bit.

Yeah. I mean, I, you know, I think it's. It's important to, like. Yeah. To acknowledge that grief. I also think about, like, telling my parents that we were pregnant. You know, like, my dad especially would fucking lose it. Even, like, telling you, you know, if I. Taking a little pregnancy test in the bathroom and, like, running out with.

I don't get to be there when you're doing it.

What the fuck?

Secret pregnancy test.

I mean, you've never seen me pee before, so I don't think peeing on a stick is gonna be the first time you've seen me pee. But, yeah, there, you know, there's just so many, you know, incredible milestone moments that I know we won't experience. And it's important to me too acknowledge that and to feel that and to also know at the same time, like, I'm still making the right decision. And I know that there are gonna be people listening to this right now, thinking, like, oh, my God, they're both, like, crying over, like, all these potential memories that they could have, like, they should fucking have kids. And I just wanna be super clear, like, I don't think we should, and I don't want to. And I can't feel all of these feelings. I can feel this grief. I can feel, like, what my life could look like. And I can even feel the joy of, like, oh, God, all these, like, amazing, wonderful Moments that we could have and still know a hundred percent in the depths of my being, that that's not the right path for me.

Yeah. I mean, and here's the thing is we are having these feelings right now, and we can continue to check in tomorrow and the next day and the next day, day and the next, and see, hey, how does that feel now? Am I still having this type of feeling or has that subsided? I mean, the wonderful thing with feelings is if you truly let yourself feel the feelings, they pass over you pretty quickly, and you can evaluate pretty soon, like, oh, am I still feeling this? Am I still stuck on this idea or this desire or whatever. And, you know, I feel confident that you and I can and continue to check in. And if tomorrow we both wake up and we're like, oh, man, I'm still feeling really raw from that experience last night, what's up with that? Like, we could talk about that and we could evaluate what we want to do, but we've had conversations like this a number of times, and I feel pretty confident, you know, we're going to finish recording this podcast. We're going to go about our day, and, you know, I'm not going to wake up tomorrow or the next day coming back to this and being like, I can't stop thinking about that moment.

Yeah. I mean, I know that the feelings will pass, and I also know that I'm always gonna carry some grief with me.

Yeah.

You know, I'm always going to have that, like, alternate vision of what my life could look like, you know, in my heart. And that's okay. That's totally okay. It doesn't mean I'm making the wrong decision. But I. Yeah, that's. That's really something that I want to give to anybody who is unsure if they want to have kids or already knows that they don't want to have kids. Like, feel your grief. It's okay. That doesn't mean you're making the wrong decision. And it's really, like, a gift to be able to give to yourself, to create the space for yourself to feel those feelings. It's okay to have those feelings. It doesn't mean you're doing anything wrong. So. Okay, let's move on.

All right. Pull it together.

Out of the grief. There's just one last thing that we want to speak to before we get into some questions, and that's this, like, weird vibes between couples who decide to have kids and couples who decide not to. Like, it just feels like there's this opposition between these two groups. Of couples. We really think that that's completely unnecessary. And I think it does boil down to there's just a lot of judgment on either side. There definitely are child free couples who are judgmental of couples who do decide to have kids. There are couples with kids who are judgmental of couples who decide not to.

Have them, as evidenced by that quote we read you at the very beginning.

Oh, yeah, the kids burden that we're not burdening kids.

The burden of the child burden. The stupid child burden.

That should just be the name of this episode. Stupid. We're not having no stupid children. But we do. We really just don't think it's useful for couples to like, have this tension with each other. Like, we've been trying to be really clear this entire episode that we are so supportive of couples who want to have kids. We think having a family is a beautiful thing. Kids are incredible. We're so happy for those of you who have kids in your lives. Like, there doesn't need to be this judgment from one group to the other. We don't have to be in opposition to each other. Like, the bottom line when it comes down to kids is that deciding whether or not to have kids is an incredibly personal decision. And what we really hope to have left you with is this belief that you get to make the decision that feels right for you. We have all of this societal pressure telling us, like, the ways that our lives are supposed to unfold, what timelines, what milestones. And the reality is it's all bullshit. It's your fucking life. You only get one of them. So you decide what you want, you decide what feels right for you. And we hope that by us being vulnerable and sharing with you, like, we've made this decision not to have kids, we're gonna talk about this openly and we're gonna risk people calling us stupid and selfish and immature because we want you to know, like, it's okay to make this decision. And at the same time, it is also totally okay to make the decision to have kids. We love you for that. We support you. We think that's wonderful. We're jealous of a lot of the things that you get do to. To experience. So, like, let's get rid of this bullshit tension between couples with kids and couples without them. Like, we're all just human beings doing the best we can, making the decisions that feels right for us. So just make the decision that feels good for you and let other people make the decisions that feel good for them.

And also, if you want to get really meta about it. We could say we are not having kids. Kids physically. But, you know, we are showing up. We're showing up as the mother and father that you never had in terms of teaching you out of a really great relationship and sex life. So we are serving you that maternal, paternal energy.

We're serving. Are you thinking about RuPaul right now? Again, serving looks. We're serving our maternal and paternal.

Yeah, we are serving. I'm serving my paternal look right now. All right, so Daddy is gonna answer some listener questions now.

No.

So the first one is, what do you guys do for birth control?

People are always curious about this, so I use the non hormonal iud. I love it. I was on hormonal birth control before and wanted to not have any more hormones in my birth. In my birthday, in my birthday. In my body.

That's a good goal.

In my birthday suit. In my body. And I'm extremely happy with my decision. Talk to your doctor about your options. Make your own decision. But I love the non hormonal iud. And we also have decided that at some point, Xander's gonna get a vasectomy. We haven't, like, a thousand percent closed the door on having kids.

Yeah, we could change our minds tomorrow.

I mean, last time we talked about it, I think we both were like, what's your percentage? Like, 10%?

I might up mine to 15.

Oh, no.

After the events of this last week. But it's okay. I'm still solid.

But, yeah, I mean, you know, that's like, an interesting other piece of the conversation that we should have had. Like, I feel like we are still punting the decision down the road, and there's gonna have to be. I guess it'll be the day that you get your vasectomy.

Oh, I'm gonna have to. I'm gonna sack up. Sack up and tie that sack up. Tie that sack up and sling it over my shoulder.

Oh, God.

Just kidding.

That is a horrible visual.

No, but how many years you have left on your IUD because you got a new put in recently?

I think I have, like, years.

Oh, it's. Oh, it's not a five year thing?

10 to 12.

Oh, God. Okay.

Yeah. I got time, baby.

But, yeah, I mean, if we got that taken out of you, it would improve your period experience significantly.

It would.

So, you know, I might get a vasectomy soon.

All right.

Snip, snap.

Snip, snap.

All right, next question. Do you think you'll regret it? What will you do if you do regret it?

This is the number One question that we get asked and, like, it's understandable. Yes, of course we think about the future of, like, what are different state. You know, what are. What are things going to look like when we're 45, 55, 65? Like, will we regret it at some point? But I think, like, it's such a big decision, and I don't think you can make decisions like this based on the future. Like, I think that you have to make them based on the present and what you're wanting now, like, to make a decision to avoid the possibility of feeling regret at some point in the future. Like, that's just not a great basis to make a decision. And again, like, I keep coming back to, like, my grounding touchstone question for myself is, do I feel the active desire to have a child? And that answer is no. And if I go down to that belief of, like, every child deserves to be wanted, would I want to look my child in the eye and think, like, I only had you because I was afraid that I would regret it if I didn't?

Yeah, that doesn't feel good to me. That doesn't feel good at all. I think the other piece of it, too, is getting back to what you're talking about, the grieving process. If we were to have not allowed ourselves to have any grief around this, to acknowledge the, oh, yeah, this could be something that we regret, then if we do change our minds in five years, then, yeah, absolutely, I would really regret it. But I think that, you know, grieving is almost a way of, like, proactively feeling the possible feelings of regret later on. Like, I'm going through that grieving process, acknowledging, yeah, these are. These are the downsides. These are the things that I am going to miss. You know, I think it would be tough in 10 years, I changed my mind, that all of a sudden I'm, like, hitting myself over the head about it. Because the reality is I have let myself feel all this stuff that I'm gonna miss on an ongoing basis. I'm not compartmentalizing it. I'm not saying I'm just gonna keep betting on the fact that I'm for sure never gonna want kids. So I don't need to worry about these feelings that I'm having. I mean, I think that regret is kind of like a bubbling up of feelings that you. You've suppressed.

Absolutely. No, that's a really good point. As human beings, like, the best we can do is make the decisions that we can with the information that we have. And that's the Decision that I'm making now, there is a real possibility that we could absolutely get to a later point in our lives and say, damn it, we really wish that we had done this. But, like, with the information that I have now, I can't make that decision and feel good about it.

We might regret it when we get old. Because the next question is, what the hell are you gonna do when you get old?

No, like, we could have kids and absolutely regret it.

Oh, yeah, 100%. I feel like we're probably more likely to have that happen.

There have definitely been times where, like, you've gotten a little more tender and been, like, I don't know, like, hanging out with our friends today. Like, it was really nice to see our friend with his little son. And it made me think. And, like, I felt this. Like, oh, God, Oh, God, oh, God. Like, is he gonna try to convince me and then what's life gonna look like? Like, you know? And, yeah, there is a very real possibility that we could have kids to avoid it. Try to avoid feeling regret later, but then regret it. And I know that, like, if we were to have kids, I a thousand percent know that we would love our kids and we would be happy and we would make a nice life with them. Like, I'm not saying we would. I don't know. I don't even want to get dark or anything like that. Like, I. But still, like, I think there's still the possibility that we would feel like, I wish that we hadn't done this. Like, I love my child. I'm not gonna, like, give them back, but, like, I kind of wish that we hadn't done this. And we have had parents in our community who have been so vulnerable and shared that with us of, like, I love my child, but, like, yeah, if I could go back in time, I don't think I would choose to be a parent. That's an incredibly vulnerable thing to say, and I appreciate people being willing to be that honest. But, yeah, let's get back to the question of what will we do when we get old? This is another one that comes up a lot, definitely in the vein of the regret thing. And, yeah, again, I absolutely will acknowledge, like, there's a grief that comes along with that as well. Like, it would be super fun to have grandkids. It would be super fun to have this, like, big family and feel like, we made this. We're the matriarch and the patriarch of this, like, big, beautiful family. Like, that would be wonderful. And it does, you know. Yeah, there is a Sadness that comes along with thinking, especially being, like, much older in life when we are needing to be in nursing homes, like, not having anybody to come visit us or to help take care of us. There, of course, is some fear that comes up of, like, what are our lives going to look like? And at the same time, like, we've talked about this a little bit on Instagram and we've heard from. Oh, God, we've heard from a lot of, like, nursing home workers that are like. Like, having kids is not a guarantee that you're gonna have a fulfilling and beautiful end of your life. They're like, you know, all the senior citizens that are here, like, nobody ever comes to visit them. Nobody ever comes. So it's like, I mean, man, PSA for, like, reaching out to some senior citizens, going to see your grandparents, giving them a call, going to volunteer. You know, like, old people are really fucking lonely and. And we don't treat the elderly with an awful lot of respect in this country, so we all gotta sack up and do a better job at that. But, like, yeah, I don't think that having kids is a guarantee that we're not gonna be lonely at a certain point in our lives.

Yeah, it's definitely not. It's definitely not. And I mean, it comes back to what you said a little while ago about we're making the best decision we can with what, the data that we have right now. And I don't want to be. Be trying to make a different decision because of this thing in the future that I'm worried about. I mean, I don't know how old we're gonna be when we, you know, cease to be able to take care of ourselves effectively. I don't know what's coming down the pike with medicine. And, you know, maybe we'll all be able to live. Yeah. A lot longer. Who knows? Who knows? I'm, you know, I'm trying to live in the present right now.

Yeah. All right, well, we've been talking a lot about our Instagram audience today, so we just wanted to leave you with an invitation to come join us over there, if you're not already following us. At Vanessa Marin Therapy, we do a lot of polls for these episodes and other topics. We do stories every single day. You'll kind of see a little bit more behind the scenes. Look into our lives. We get pretty intimate and raw and vulnerable the way that we have been on this podcast, but also a lot of funny stories as well about weird shit that your kids say and creepy things you do in your sleep. All kinds of fun stuff. So make sure you're following us there and watch our stories every day. We would love to have you join us there.

Well, that's all for today's episode of Pillow Talks. Thank you so much for listening to us talk and cry. Join us again next week when we talk about what comes first, sex or connection?

Sam.