EPISODE 58: The Sex Act You Should Be Doing - But Probably Aren’t

So we have some specific ideas for you of sexy ways to initiate it.

Okay, so what you're saying is that it's not like, hey, you want to do some mutual masturbation? Wait, I don't know. I had my.

Is that one? I don't know.

We're good. Sorry, that was no good.

Hello, and welcome to the Pillow Talks podcast. We're your hosts, Vanessa and Xander Marin. I'm a sex Therapist with over 20.

Years of experience, and I'm just a regular dude. We share the ups and downs in our relationship while giving you step by step techniques for improving yours.

Make sure you subscribe for your weekly double date full of totally doable sex tips, practical relationship advice, hilarious and honest stories of what really goes on behind closed bedroom doors, and so much more. It's the sex education you wish you'd had today. We're talking about one of the sexiest things that you can do in the bedroom that you're probably not doing, and that is mutual masturbation. So if you don't know what we are talking about. Actually, a lot of people don't. Mutual masturbation is when you and your partner masturbate in front of each other. So you're masturbating, your partner's masturbating, you're doing it in front of each other. Personally, we think that this is one of the most underrated sexual acts. We actually asked our Instagram audience, who's heard of this, who does this regularly? And only 36% of our audience says that they have ever done it, like, even just once. Only 36%. So when we were prepping for this episode, when we put those questions up on Instagram, we got a lot of questions about this. I think it was one of the strongest reactions to a topic that we've gotten in a while. Like, a lot of people were saying, why in the world would you want to do this? Like, I don't even understand the appeal. It doesn't sound sexy. A lot of male, female couples saying, like, isn't intercourse better? Like, wouldn't you just want to do that?

Yeah, I can totally understand this because there's this idea that, oh, well, I masturbate when I don't have someone to have sex with. Right. Like, it's a lesser than already. And then I can just kind of remember back to, like, when I was first becoming sexually active. I think I had heard this term before. I can't remember. Like, I read about it somewhere or something, and it just sort of seemed like, okay, but, like, why Would you. Why would you do this? This just seems. It just seems dumb. Like, I want a hand job, I want a blow job. I want to have sex. I don't want mutual masturbation.

Yeah. I think we tend to of masturbation as something that we just do alone or we only do when we're single or we're not hooking up with somebody, and we'll get into that in the episode. But, yeah, I think most of us don't even think about it as a possibility of something we could do with a partner.

Yeah. Or like, we're embarrassed. Or we're like, oh, this is kind of just this dirty thing that I do that I wish I didn't have to do, but now I have someone to have sex with, so why would I even do it with them, much less with myself?

You know, I'm like. I'm like, anthropomorphizing masturbation right now.

I'm thinking about, like, let's go.

Poor little masturbation. Nobody likes.

Nobody likes it. Is it a he or is she?

Things are always a he whenever I anthropomorphize them. I don't know why, but, yeah, masturbation's a he to me. Poor guy. Everybody thinks that he's just something that only sad single people do. Oh, I know. But we're going to change your mind about that in this episode. We're going to talk about the many benefits of mutual masturbation. Why it's something you should consider. How to do it. I think by the end of this episode, we're going to have a lot of people convinced to give this a shot.

But before we convince you of that, I am going to read you this week's review of the week, which is.

And are you going to convince people to leave a review?

I'm going to. I'm going to convince you to leave a review. I'm going to convince you to love our podcast. I'm going to convince you why we are the coolest people around. Oh, maybe, maybe not. I don't know. Not sure where I'm going with that one. I don't know.

The coolest people around.

We're not. We're not that close.

Around where?

Around these parts.

I want to get that made into a sweatshirt.

Around where?

Into like, no, into like a. You know, like, when couples wear couples sweatshirts, we'll be like, the coolest couple around these parts, and we'll both wear it at the same time.

Done.

Okay.

Done. All right, let's do this. Rekindling after 30 years together, my husband and I will celebrate 30 years of marriage this coming November. We married. Yeah. Congrats. We married young, had kids early, and are now enjoying this new season. With two children married, and our youngest well into her twenties, our love life has grown stagnant the last few years. But no more. Your podcast has been super helpful for me, especially overcoming my shame and low self confidence. Now it is very normal for me to initiate sex. Woo hoo. Thanks for being so transparent and real. And then there are a man and a woman in love. Emoji. Kiss heart. Oh boy.

I don't think you've had to do this one before.

This is. This is like. This kind of looks like a bad emoji. It's like too hot and sweaty. Like, it's like a red. It's like a red sad face, tongue out, sweating. Because there's a. I think it's panting. Yeah, panting. Hot and panting. Because right next to it is a big eggplant and a peach.

Hot and panting. How about that would be like your cologne if you made your own cologne.

Try Xander's Hot panting.

If you could have those commercials like the. What is that body spray like bod. They're like hot bod. I want your bod.

I want you hot and panting.

I love it. That's perfect. More merch ideas. All right, well, thank you so much for this delightful review. So glad to hear that you are rekindling handling things after 30 years together.

I wonder if you're doing any mutual masturbation maybe? Unfortunately, they did not say.

We really appreciate your reviews. They go so far in helping the podcast grow. So we greatly, greatly appreciate. If you would just take 30 to 60 seconds to leave us a quick review on Apple Podcasts. And as our little way of saying thank you, we will enter you into a giveaway. We do a review of the week every single week. And if you're the winner, you can DM us on Instagram Vanessa Marin Therapy, and ask us a question and we will shoot you back a free mini personalized coaching session. We'll give you our best advice and feedback specifically for your situation. So thank you in advance for the reviews. All right, so let's get into it. So if you're anything like our Instagram audience, you definitely have a lot of questions about, like, what's so great about mutual masturbation? Why would I want to do this? I don't know. It sounds really awkward. That was actually the number one response that we got back from our Instagram Community feeling like, it just seems awkward. Right. So I think that that really has to do with our feelings about masturbation in general. So most of us have pretty negative relationships with masturbation. Like, some of us have been masturbating, you know, for most of our lives. Some of us have never done it and feel this shame of, like, I don't know how to bring my body pleasure. I don't know what I need. Or we feel this shame of, like, ooh, masturbation is a bad or sinful thing. I mean, how many, you know, weird beliefs do we have about masturbation? Like, oh, you'll grow ha. Hair on your palms. Or, you know, like, that's a really old one, but, you know, or you're just.

Or you've just been doing it alone for your whole life, and so you're like, okay, like, why would I. Why would I show somebody else this thing that I do on my own?

Yeah, it feels like a shameful act that you only are supposed to do on your own. Nobody else is supposed to know about it. Nobody's supposed to see it, even though you know that other people are doing it too. There's still just a lot of taboo around masturbation. So we heard about that a lot from our Instagram community. A lot of people in particular mentioned that purity culture taught them that masturbation is this very sinful thing. They still associate it with those feelings. I just want to call out. We do have a podcast episode specifically about how to overcome purity culture. So if you're resonating with that last comment, definitely make sure to go back through the archives and check it out.

But, I mean, one little idea here is that you. If it feels maybe you're just, like, unsure, you're like, oh, this feels maybe a little bad, maybe a little awkward. Sometimes that little bit of awkwardness or that feeling of like, oh, maybe we're not supposed to do this, can actually make it really sexy. When you do do it and you kind of are doing it together and you look at each other and it's like, oh, we're not really supposed to be doing this, but we are. You can use that. That, you know, a little bit of shame or awkwardness and actually to your advantage, especially as you're getting used to doing this, it can be really exciting. Now it's a different story. If you feel like, oh, my God, I cannot do this at all. I've been taught that this is horribly wrong my whole life. But, you know, if it's just kind of like, oh, awkward. Like, actually, I would challenge you. Push through that awkwardness because that can actually kind of be some of those sexiest moments.

Absolutely. And we'll get into like the benefits of mutual masturbation and how to kind of change your attitudes around it. But I think another thing that I wanted to call attention to is a lot of people said that they just like, don't feel confident enough to masturbate in front of their partner. Like, it feels too vulnerable. They're embarrassed about the technique that they use. They're worried what their partner might think. So it brings up a lot of this, like, self consciousness around doing it. So before we get into all the benefits and trying to convince you, we want to normalize and just validate these feelings of shame, these fears and concerns that come up. Masturbation definitely is still a taboo topic in our society. So we totally understand if you're feeling this hesitation or this resistance to it.

Yeah, I think pretty much all of us listening have received at least one negative message somewhere down the line. Whether that was from a parent, from tv, from a movie, from a book, from religion, from friends. You know, some of us have received a lot more of those messages than others. But I think it's a pretty universal experience to have at least, least had some experience of being like, oh, maybe I shouldn't be doing this.

Yeah, I don't think this will surprise anybody. But we want to be absolutely clear in saying that masturbation is healthy, common and totally normal. Like, it's a really powerful experience to get in touch with your own body and figure out what you like. And like, just bringing your own body pleasure is honestly like a very sacred experience. So yes, masturbation can, it has all of these negative perceptions and it, you know, people can have complex relationships with it. But the basic idea of learning about your body and making it feel good is a really wonderful thing. So let's talk about the specific benefits of mutual masturbation. Why is this something that we should do with our partners? First, I want to say when we asked our audience about mutual masturbation, again, we had a very small percentage of people who did it regularly in their sex lives. But those people were very vocal about how much they love it. They're like, why aren't more people doing this? It's so sexy. I love it. It's really hot. So just a little affirmation there that if you try it, you are likely to become a convert.

You might like it, you're going to like the way you look. Doesn't quite fit.

You're going to like the way you feel.

Yeah, you're going to like the way you feel in the creepy men's warehouse voice. You know, the guy that got fired as CEO of his own company, right? Oh, no.

Was it some. I don't even know. Why? Was it something creepy?

No. I don't know. Not sure. Well, scratch that.

Okay, let's talk.

Yeah, we are. They are not sponsoring this episode, by the way.

That would be an interesting ad. I'm not sure how we would work that one into the podcast, but let's talk about mutual masturbation. Okay, so first benefit that we want to discuss is that it can be just a fun way to shake up your usual routine. Like, we get this question every day. Like, how do I spice the things up? How do we bust out of our rut and try something new? Like, this is something new to try. And it can feel, you know, unexpected. It can feel very novel if it's something that you never even realized was a possibility before. Like, that can feel very exciting to suggest it, to bring it into the bedroom. So basic reason here, it's just something new to experiment. That can be a lot of fun with.

It can also just be incredibly arousing. There's nothing really like watching your partner touch their own body and pleasure themselves, and then not only are you watching, but you're doing it at the same time, and you're feeling good, too. You know, you got to watch them moan, sigh. Watching your partner get hard or wet. Like, that sounds exciting, right? Like, why would you not want to participate in that?

And piggybacking off of that. It's also really useful, too. Like, it helps you learn what your partner likes. I mean, I think that's something that we all wish we knew more about, right? Like, I want to know what brings my partner pleasure. How do I give the them the best sex they've ever had? What do they really like? And so there's so much information that you can pick up on when you watch your partner masturbate. Like, how are they touching themselves? What kind of stroke or technique are they using? Where are they touching? What kind of speed or pressure? Like, you can really learn so much by watching your partner touch themselves. Okay, this next benefit, I think some people will really resonate with it. Some people might not. But for some people, the element of, like, being on display can be very sexy. So, yes, again, this can feel like a really vulnerable, vulnerable act. It might feel a little bit hard to, like, work up the courage to do this for the first time. But you really may discover that, like, having an audience who is your trusted partner.

An audience of one.

An audience of one. Can actually really heighten your experience overall.

And if this is feeling really tough because there's some feelings of shame coming up, then just getting into the habit of doing this occasionally in front of your partner and seeing them enjoy what they're seeing, seeing give, you know, receiving value, validation from them as they watch you masturbate. That can be one of the best ways to overcome your own shame around masturbation. Because, you know, it can be kind of challenging if you have a lot of shame. Like, if you're just doing it on your own, maybe it's hard to overcome that because, like, you're not receiving validation from anybody else. It's sort of like, well, this is this thing I'm doing alone. And, like, it's kind of just this dirty little thing. But when you're doing it in front of someone else and you see that they're enjoying it, like, that can be a really healthy and healing experience, perhaps.

Yeah, absolutely. It kind of helps bring masturbation out of the shadows and realize, like, literally into the light.

I mean, I guess you can have the room as dark as.

Well, we'll talk about that in a minute. But, yeah, you can. You know, it brings it out of the light. It's, like, becomes out of the shadow.

It brings it out. Let's not bring things out of the light, babe.

It brings it out of the shadows into the light. It helps you realize that this can be, like, an intimate activity. It can be something that you share with your partner. So. Yeah, exactly. Like Xander was saying, like, it really chips away from that sense of shame or this being this hidden, secretive thing that we do and helps you realize, like, this can be a way to build intimacy with your partner. It's. It is a very vulnerable act, and that's what intimacy is. It's like when we allow ourselves to be vulnerable in front of our partner and really show ourselves. And you're not really showing much more of yourself than you are when you masturbate in front of them. So it really is a great way to build intimacy. And finally, one other benefit that we want to call out is that mutual masturbation can also ensure that you have an orgasm with your partner. Partner. So a lot of people struggle to reach orgasm with their partner.

And sometimes when they're having intercourse, especially.

Yeah, especially if you're having intercourse. Especially if you're a woman, because as we've Talked about before, vaginas aren't very sensitive, and intercourse doesn't tend to be the most pleasurable activity for the vast majority of women. So adding a little mutual masturbation at some point during the act like that can be a great way to ensure that you have an orgasm. And even if you're like, well, I don't want to have all my orgasms, like, just on my own. Like, I want my partner to learn how to make me orgasm. Like, this can still be a great stepping stone to that, where it's like, you get to make sure that you have orgasms. You're teaching your partner more about what you like, you're discovering more of what you like. That's, I guess, another benefit. Even, like, you might try new techniques with each other, kind of explore something a little bit different, discover a certain technique that you like. But anyways, yeah, they can be a great stepping stone for you taking the responsibility of having your own orgasms with your partner and then eventually transition. Transitioning into them learning how to help you reach orgasm.

Yeah, I think when we're a little nervous about trying something, we tend to engage in this sort of all or nothing thinking where we're like, oh, well, I couldn't possibly do that, because if I did that and then I do have an orgasm, then that's like the only way I'm ever going to have orgasms again. And it's like, whoa, whoa, whoa, hold on a second. Nobody ever said you got to do this every single time. Like, this can be something you do do occasionally. It could be something you do like once a month. It can be something that you do a couple times as you're showing your partner more of what you like and working on getting your partner to be better at helping give you an orgasm while you guys are having intercourse. So don't not try this because you're worried about, like, the pattern that it will set up, what it's going to be like 10 years from now. I think that's such a way that we get in our heads and not try things. So just try it once. Think about just this once, worry about what happens the next time or the time after or the time ten years after.

Wow, that was another tongue twister.

Ten years after.

Yeah. Yeah. So hopefully these reasons, these benefits, you know, give you a little bit of curiosity, encourage you to explore this. Xander and I are never going to tell you you have to do something. Like, if you listen to this whole episode and you're like, you know what? Just, I'm not interested. That's totally fine. It's your prerogative.

I don't know. I do think that you do have to talk about stuff. Sex.

Oh, okay.

I'm gonna put my foot down and say that talking about sex is something that is 100% necessary in a long term relationship.

Okay, I'm. I'm down with that.

But when it comes to actual sexual acts, we're never gonna tell you. You have to do something.

Exactly. It's your body. You get to decide. But I would encourage you to see. You know, if you have even the littlest bit of curiosity, you're a little bit intrigued. Kind of like what Xander was saying, like, just try it once. You're not having to make this lifelong commitment to doing it for the rest of your. Try it once and see how it goes. Okay, so now that we've talked all about how great mutual masturbation could be, why you might want to try it.

How the hell do you do it?

How do we initiate it? I think that's a really big source of embarrassment and kind of confusion for a lot of people. So we have some specific ideas for you of sexy ways to initiate it.

Wait, so what you're saying is that it's not like, hey, you want to do some mutual masturbation? Wait, I don't know.

I don't know.

We're gonna. Sorry, that was no good. We're gonna.

Have to leave it. Leave it.

That did not come out.

Try it again.

That didn't come out.

I don't know what that.

So you wanna mutually masturbate?

What? What is that voice?

I don't know. I feel like I did a funny voice earlier on in the podcast and I was just like expecting it to come out the same way, but I don remember what that voice was now, so.

Wow.

I said it and I was like, oh, wow, this is a dud. This is a dud. I really wanted to cut that, but Vanessa is really seems to be sure that that needs to make it into the podcast.

I think so.

I hope. I hope you enjoyed that.

Please don't ever try that voice on me in the bedroom.

Well, don't worry, I will never say those words in that voice because it did not land.

Okay, so how about you give us a sexier way to introduce the idea of mutual masturbation?

Well, one way you could do it is you could just send your partner a link to this very episode with a little note that just says, I'm intrigued. Are you? That's really why we do episodes like this so that it's super easy to like, you listen to something, you get interested about trying something. All you need to do is send it to your partner. Listen with your partner and you know, we're doing most of the work for you. All you have to do is, is express something like that. Like, huh, I never thought about that. I'm a little interested. Are you?

I like your little koi body positioning right here. Xander's like has his arms crossed in front of him and he's got like one little shoulder shimmy out like, oh, I've never thought about this before.

Coy and bashful.

You know, you're going to the opposite end of the spectrum from your creepy voice.

Yeah, I know. I'm over correcting.

Another option is this is one of our favorite overall techniques, which is called the dream scheme. So you tell your part partner like, I had this sex dream last night and I dreamed about something that I've never thought about before, but it was really sexy in the dream. So you're, you know, it is a little lie. But there, if you want to get technical about it, there's not that much of a difference between dreaming and like daydreaming or fantasizing. So, you know, it is sort of a bit of a dream. But you give your partner the opportunity to respond to it and you can kind of ease your way into it by saying, like, yeah, it's not something I've thought about before. I didn't even know this was a thing before, but I, I was surprised by how sexy it was. In the dream, if you're feeling a bit more confident, you couldn't just also come straight out and say like, you know, what would be really sexy? Like, I'd love to watch you touch yourself. Or you could turn it around and ask your partner, like, do you want to watch me when I touch myself? I want to show you what I like to do when I'm thinking about you. Like, that would be such a hot text message to send to your partner. Like, do you want to watch me while I touch my myself tonight? Like, you know I'm thinking about you. I want to show you what I do, all that kind of stuff. Like, I think most partners would be very excited to get that.

Yeah, I think that would be a winner.

Another thing that you can do is you can try initiating it as the two of you are already starting to get intimate. So sometimes people feel a bit more self conscious suggesting something or bringing it up when you're outside of the bedroom in general, like, we Think that that's a great suggestion, but people tend to be, like, one way or the other. So if you feel more comfortable bringing things up, like, when you're already starting to get intimate with each other, here's a way that you could ease into it. So you could start touching your partner's penis or their clitoris with your hands, and then you sort of pull away for a second and say, like, why don't you take over for a minute? Oh, yeah. So it's not even that you're directly, like, asking your partner, let's try mutual masturbation. That's my weird voice for today.

I mean, yeah, I think. I mean, so. I think so many people just get, as you would say, squeaked out about that term. Like, I don't even want to say that word. The reality is you don't have to say that word. And it doesn't have to be like, okay, we're committing to doing this for 10 minutes or 20 minutes for the entire session. This can just be, like, a short detour that you take on your way to something else. Like, you can do it for 10 seconds, 30 seconds, you know, a minute or two, you can do it in between positions, anything like that. And, like, that all counts. I think that a lot of people get in their heads just because they're like, oh, God, now I have to do this thing that we've never done before, and it's gonna. Who knows how long it's gonna take? And, like, this can just be a little tiny thing that you incorporate slowly into your sex life.

Yeah, absolutely. You know, I think mutual masturbation has a branding issue.

Oh, yeah.

It's not a sexy phrase. Like, mutual feels very formal and stiff. I think of, like, mutual funds or something like that. And then masturbation, it's just. It's not a sexy word, per se. It's kind of just like, I don't.

Know, let's rebrand it.

So what would you. What would it be called?

I don't know. Co. Co jacking. I mean, think. What else do you call masturbation? Like, Because. Because we've said, like, masturbation as a term is off the table. So it's joint jacking. That sounds kind of maybe painful or.

All right, well, come over to Instagram. Tell us when we're in therapy. We need help. Let's rebrand mutual masturbation together. Help us think of a sexy phrase for it that would make people want to do it, feel excited about it. Yeah. Something about, like, teamwork or you're doing it together.

Team touching.

That sounds awful.

Team touch.

I said teamwork, and I was like, no, it doesn't sound sexy either, but team touching is terrible. We're also, with the time that we're recording this, we are going on a retreat with our team next week.

Thank God this episode won't have come out yet. God.

To freak them out and, like, we're gonna do a team touching session. Somebody call HR on us right away. Nope, we are not doing that. There is no touching involved in our workplace. Don't worry. But yes, we need to rebrand mutual masturbation. We need to come up with a better phrase. So come over to Instagram anessamarintherapy and let us know your best suggestions for a new name for it that will get people excited.

Another great way to introduce mutual masturbation.

Team touching.

Now I just. Now I'm like, got it. I need another. Another great way to introduce Kojak is toys.

Huh?

Like, you know, just whip one out and ask your. Whip it. Whip out that joint jacker machine and ask your partner, you want to watch me use this on myself? Really sexy, right?

Join jacker machine.

Whip your joint jacking device and jack away.

Jacker machine. That's like the least sexy name that you could come up with. A sex toy.

Your mutual masturbation machine. There's a nice elaboration.

That's.

No. I mean, just like, no. So, you know, just. Just pull out a sex toy and offer to your partner, hey, you want to see me use this?

That could be a great way to introduce.

And then, you know, and then, like, if they say yes and. And you can invite them to touch themselves too, so that it is properly mutual or joint.

Okay, let's talk about the biggest concern that came up for people when we asked them about mutual masturbation on Instagram. Like, how do we do it without feeling so awkward about it? First thing that we want to say is that everything is awkward the first time that you try it. You know, we get so many questions from people saying, like, well, how do I do this without being awkward? And how do I take the awkwardness out? That. And we're very pro awkward. Like, we just think awkwardness is part of the price of admission for having a great sex life.

I mean, well, really, the real answer is how you take the awkward out is you do it and you do it more and more, and then it becomes less awkward. It be. You become more skilled at it. You become more confident at it. There's no way to remove the awkwardness without actually doing something.

Yeah. And in case you're feeling like, oh, God, guys, come on. This really is the case with anything new that you try in life. Like outside the bedroom, completely non sexual acts. Like, every time we try something new, we feel awkward. And so rather than trying to come up with some magical way that you're going to feel fully confident and know exactly what's going to happen and it's going to be perfect the first time you try it, that is never going to happen. Instead, embrace the awkwardness and take away any sort of pressure to, like, get it right on the first time. So we actually like to call this the first pancake rule. If you've heard us talk about this on Instagram. It's like, whenever you make pancakes, pancakes, the first one always turns out kind of weird and you don't know why. You're like, the pan's the same, it's hot. The other ones turn out fine. Why is the first one always so weird? But it just is. So let yourselves be awkward. And this can even be like a great conversation to have before you try anything new with your partner. It's like, okay, this is our first time trying it. First pancake rule. Like, we're not judging it. We're not putting expectations on ourselves or each other for it to be perfect. Like, let's just try this out and see how it goes.

Yeah, be. Be the first pancake in your joint flapjacking session. Enjoy your flapjacking. Sorry, I had to do it.

I saw you, like, getting so excited to say something over there. I was like, what if he wanted to jump in?

And Vanessa was just, like, continuing on talking and I was like. I was like, shit, we're gonna. We're gonna lose it. Like, we're gonna lose the connection to my. But I stuck it in there. I shoved it in.

Wow, your. Your dad jokes have really.

Well, this is just dirty, sexy dad. Not really. They're highly inappropriate dad jokes to the dads out there. Do not use these jokes in front of your kids.

You've really, like. Yeah, you've really come alive in this year of doing the podcast together. That was truly something. Great job up, babe. Okay, let's go back to some. Some ways to, like, kind of ease into this too, to like, make it feel a little bit more comfortable to get started with. So easy thing to do. Turn the lights off. Like, if you can't see each other, then you take.

It's not happening. If you can't see it, it's not there.

If someone masturbates in the dark. Is it really masturbating?

Ooh. These are the deep questions.

So keep the lights off. You can't see each other. You know what you're doing. So it can feel sexy and exciting, but there's not that element of, like, being fully on display. Actually, I worked with a couple once that really wanted to try this, but it was a male, female couple. The woman is really shy about it, and we actually had them start off masturbating in different rooms, and they were texting each other about it, so it was like they were feeling connected. It was really sexy. But they were in different rooms. Nobody was watching each other. So if you. If you're feeling super shy, like, that's a great little tiny step that you could take to, like, get more, you know, more comfortable with this and try it out. You could also close your eyes, too, if you're like, I don't know. I turn all the lights up, but I can still see what's happening. Close your eyes. A little blindfold.

That's what I do during scary movies or the latest season of Stranger Things.

It is terrifying.

It is terrifying. I close my. I could not watch a lot of the, like. Yeah. When people were getting messed up.

Getting messed up.

I mean, there. You know, there's, like, an evil thing that is killing people. I don't know. I didn't want to give a spoiler, but, like, obviously, I think people die in every single season of Stranger Things. The way that people die is pretty brutal. And I have just not watched it. I put my hand up, close my eyes.

You use your technique of looking at the side of the frame instead of in the center.

Peripheral vision for the win.

Okay. Another option could be, like, lighting one candle. You know, there's a little bit of light, but you won't be able to see everything. Like, not every detail. So ease and do it that way. If you have a dimmer switch, you know, just a little tiny bit of light on.

And then one final suggestion. I kind of touched on this earlier, which is, you know, that mutual masturbation, and it does not have to be the main event for your entire session. So, you know, just do it for a minute or less and then move on to a different activity. And an especially great time to do it is in between sex positions, because this is kind of a kill two birds with one stone. Or as Vanessa likes to say, feed two birds with one scone.

Yeah, I don't want to kill any.

Birds because a lot of times, especially for men, the Prospect of changing positions, especially if it's like, it requires some moving around or rolling over, it can feel like I don't have a lot of stimulation. I'm scared that I might get a little soft or something like that. Just sort of like the thinking of, okay, we gotta move. I gotta maybe stand up or turn around or blah, blah, blah. And this can be a way we get in our heads with changing positions of the awkwardness of moving around. So a great way to decrease that awkwardness and prolong your own stimulation is to touch yourself while you are moving. And maybe it's okay we're not moving, like, all the way from doggy to cowgirl or something like that, but it's like, pull myself out and then I start touching myself and kind of lie down for a minute, take a breath. And then it's like, oh, hey, what position you want to try next? So that can be a great way to just break things up. So decrease the. The awkwardness. I'm putting awkwardness in quotes because I think we get in our heads and convince ourselves that changing positions is somehow awkward, even though it's just. That's how we change positions.

Sex is awkward.

Ain't no other way to do it. But, you know, it decreases that awkwardness and it also decreases the. The quote, awkwardness of mutual masturbation as well. Because then it's not like something you are initiating, per se, it's just like something you're doing. Hey, let's take a little break. I need to catch my breath after that last position or whatever.

And also, that just gave me another idea for one other tip. It might help in the moment to just give yourself a little reminder of this is okay. There's nothing wrong with masturbation. This is me being vulnerable in front of my partner or sharing intimacy with them. So just kind of giving yourself that little reminder in the moment might feel really beneficial too. And you might also want to remind yourself that your partner is being vulnerable in that moment too. Like, that's why we really like mutual masturbation, because you're both doing it at the same time. You're both having that level of vulnerability and, like, putting yourselves out there and showing this part of yourself to your partner. So I think that really can take away from the, you know, any intense feelings in the moment because you're like, I'm not alone. I'm not the only person doing it. My partner is right right here next to me. So that can be another great way to just ease some anxiety in the moment. We actually have a lot of other tips for taking mutual masturbation to the next level, making it, like, even sexier, more exciting, different ways to play around with it. So we're very curious to know, like, we're already kind of at capacity for this episode, but if you want a part two of, like, taking mutual masturbation to the next level, by that time, we'll have our rebranded title for it.

Oh, yeah, I'm sure it'll be real, snap, happy, real sexy. You just won't be able to not do it.

So come on over to Instagram vanessamarin Therapy and let us know if you want a part two to this. So our final tip here is once you and your partner have tried this out, thank each other for being willing to try something new. And we always give this advice. Whenever you try anything new in the bedroom, it is vulnerable. It is challenging. You have put yourselves out, out on the line. So just take that moment to thank your partner. And it doesn't matter if you didn't like it. If you're like, I wouldn't ever do that again. That wasn't for me. Like, it still can just be really great and help the two of you feel connected to each other. To say, like, hey, I'm really glad that you were open to trying that out with me.

All right, let's do a couple listener questions.

All right?

All right. So the first one is, okay, I want to try it, but I lay on my stomach when I masturbate, and I'm worried that that isn't sexy. Well, let me just first jump.

Yeah. I want to turn it around to you.

Okay. I'm. I'm assume. I'm just going to assume that this is a woman asking this question. It sounds like she is maybe uses the grinding technique. What I just want to say to the women out there who are worried that they're. The way that they masturbate is somehow not sexy. It's not about how you do it. It is about just that you are doing it. Like, that you masturbating is sexy. It has nothing to do with the technique or how you do it or where you do it, what position you are in. Your partner wants to see you doing it the way that you do it in real life, not some fake way that other people do or you think that other people do or that you're supposed to do.

I think that there are probably going to be an awful lot of women out there who are very relieved to hear you say that. And, yeah, I just kind of want to piggyback on that really quickly, that masturbating on your stomach, doing any sort of like grinding technique. That's actually one of the top three ways that women masturbate. So that's not unusual or bizarre or something, you know, nobody else does, just you. So I just want to validate that as well. One other thing that I'll say about masturbation is, you know, if you feel self conscious about your technique, whatever your technique is another little baby step that you could take to get more comfortable with it. Think about it as like just touching your body rather than masturbating. So you could just do something very simple, like maybe really slow, sensual strokes over your genitals. So it's not that like, you know, I'm only doing that one technique that always gets me there right away. Or like the one thing that feels the most pleasurable to me. It's like you're just getting comfortable with you touching your genitals in front of your partner.

Do something that feels good. It doesn't have to be the thing that feels the most good or is going to get you to orgasm quickest. Just do something. Start with something.

Yeah. And again, just want to be clear, there is no hierarchy with masturbation techniques. There, there is no like, oh, this way is sexy and this way is not sexy. And there's no right way to be masturbating. But if it makes you feel more comfortable to just do like a very simple touch of your own body, like, that can be a nice little in between step.

All right, next question is, does it always end with sex or what is the flow supposed to be like?

Like it can be whatever you want it to be.

So, yeah, we kind of, we kind of mentioned this a bit like, yeah, there's no right or wrong way to do this. It's not like this has to be the only activity. It's not like this has to be in a specific order.

Yeah. So when you're first getting comfortable with it, you may want to just do it for a very brief period of time and then you move on to whatever else you guys usually do in the bedroom together. But as you get more comfortable, like, you can definitely mix it up in whatever way you want. And you may even want to have sessions where all you're doing is masturbating together. Like that can actually be really great for times where maybe you don't have a lot of time, you don't have a lot of energy, but you're both like wanting to just rub one out. Real quick.

Yeah, because the reality. Yeah, co rubbing. Yeah. I mean, because, yeah, the reality is often we are a bit more adept at getting us ourselves there the quickest because we just have that, that initial immediate feedback that is the right pressure or that's the right stroke. You don't have to describe that to anyone. You know, that feels good. Oh, I want more pressure. And then you just do it with your hand. It's not like there. There's no communication required.

Yeah, absolutely.

Someone else wants to know, does phone sex or FaceTime sex count?

Absolutely. I mean, but I want to say, like, anything that you want to count as sex counts. Like, we're not here to be the sexual oversight board and like approve what counts and what doesn't count when it comes to sex.

Yeah, that sounds like a great way to make sex feel kind of routine and boring. Become an oversight board.

Remember we talked about, like the Marin Research Institute? That's like part of. We have the oversight board as a wing of the Marin Research Institute.

Oh, yeah, Great.

Now, but whatever counts as sex for you, like, that gets to count. Don't get in your head about like putting a hierarchy on things or certain things matter and other things don't. Like, it all counts. When it comes to mutual masturbation, phone sex can be a great way to do it. I mentioned that couple earlier who were like, you know, they were texting with each other. So that absolutely can count. And that can help you get more comfortable. FaceTime. If you want to do it like you're literally in different rooms or different sides of the room and you're doing it over video, that can be super sexy. You, if, if you have a long distance partner and that's one of the only ways that you can be intimate with each other. Like, that's amazing too. So absolutely masturbating over the phone over FaceTime. Those count.

All right, final question. Are you supposed to coordinate simultaneous orgasms?

This one also feels like a very formal question, like, coordinate them.

Well, I think what is probably behind this question is this, is this assumption that, that, okay, we are mutually masturbating. That means that that's all we're doing for this whole session. So, yeah, if you are intending to just be doing mutual masturbation all the way through to orgasm, then I do think that, you know, this is an important question to ask. Like, are you supposed to tee up each other's orgasms and get there at the same time? I mean, going back a second, if you are doing this just in between other acts, then you don't really need to worry about this element of it. Right. Because it's just like, oh, we're just doing this for a couple seconds or for a minute while we kind of take a break and then move on to something else. But, yeah. Vanessa, what do you do if you are intending to both get to orgasm?

So, in general, we're not huge fans of simultaneous orgasm. Of course, this is always how you see sex on TV and in the movies, but in reality, when you're trying to have an orgasm at the exact, exact same moment, it means, like, someone's always trying to speed up and feeling bad that they're taking too long, and somebody else is always trying to slow down and feeling bad that they're taking too fast.

Going too fast.

Going too fast. Yeah. Taking too. Taking not enough time. You can't say that that way. Going too fast. We're not fans of it. In general, I think it can be sexier to just, like, let people orgasm at the times that they orgasm.

Of course. Of course.

Then there may be times where, like, one person goes, and then they're, like, just hanging out, waiting for the other person. So I can understand how that might feel, like, a little bit of pressure for the person who's taking longer. So you could do this in a lot of different ways. Like, you could try to get your orgasms in the same general vicinity of each other. So this is going to involve communicating and letting your partner know, I'm getting close.

Are you close?

Yeah. Or you could tell your partner, like, take a little break and let me catch up to you. You can have sexy conversation about. About this.

I would say that probably simultaneous orgasm, we really highly recommend against aiming for this during intercourse unless you're, like, very, very advanced or very comfortable with what you need and knowing how to get there yourself. I would say with mutual masturbation, there's probably a. You might have a bit more control. You have a lot more control than you would during intercourse, where it's sort of like, in order to stimulate my partner, I also have to stimulate myself. Myself.

Yeah. So having that communication can help of, like, take a little bit of a break. And so your partner could stop touching themselves, and maybe they. They come kiss you or they touch a different part of your body, so it can be really sexy in that way. But, yeah, don't pressure yourselves that it, like, has to be in the exact same moment. All right, well, that wraps up our episode on mutual masturbation. Let us know if you want to hear a part two to this and we are also going to link to our foreplay guides in the show notes for this episode. If you want to learn how to get better at touching your own body, get better at touching your partner's body. The foreplay guides are a really great way to learn step by step techniques for doing that. We like really lay out the techniques for you. They're illustrations. They're very detailed directions. So they're a lot of fun to play with in the bedroom together.

Yeah. So instead of so I mean, obviously, obviously you can take those techniques and do them to your partner. You can also read those techniques and do it to yourself. Maybe not the oral techniques, but you can try. You can try.

We're not talking about oral in this episode, just, just manual stimulation.

All right, well, that's all for today's episode of Pillow Talks. Thank you so much for listening. Join us again next week when we talk about how to role play.

Sam.