EPISODE 63: Does Your Partner Care Enough About YOUR Pleasure?

Let's be honest, we might unload on.

We might unload on a couple things.

We got a little fired up prepping for this one. Collecting some of these stories, reading some of these stories.

Hello and welcome to the Pillow Talks podcast. We're your hosts, Vanessa and Xander Marin. I'm a sex Therapist with over 20.

Years of experience, and I'm just a regular dude. We share the ups and downs in our relationship while giving you step by step techniques for improving yours.

Make sure you subscribe for your weekly double date full of totally doable sex tips, practical relationship advice, hilarious and honest stories of what really goes on behind closed bedroom doors, and so much more. It's the sex education you wish you'd had. One of our mottos is, everyone who wants an orgasm gets an orgasm. And it sounds pretty straightforward, pretty fair, right? Like, everyone should get to have a good time.

We.

But the reality is this is just not happening in so many bedrooms all across the world, including ours, for a.

Long period of time. And earlier on in our relationship, it.

Was not happening for us.

It was surprisingly difficult. Like, it's an easy concept to understand, but a very surprisingly complicated one to actually live out to practice in real life.

Yeah, we get DMs every single day from couples multiple times a day, talking about how hard it is to balance out both partners experiences. And let's be real, the vast majority of these messages are from couples in male, female relationships. And the vast majority of the time it's the woman reaching out to us saying, I'm not getting very much pleasure, I'm not having orgasms, I'm not having a great experience. Like, what do I do?

Like, is something missing? Is something wrong, wrong with me? Is something wrong with my partner? Is something wrong with all the messages I've gotten from the world about how it's supposed to be? It's just not feeling that way to me.

So a lot of these messages, you know, we can see, like, the nuances, we can see the gray area. We can get a little hint of what we think is going on. But let's be real. We also get a lot of messages where it's just straight up, this partner sounds like an asshole.

Yeah.

Like, he's making fun of her, he's making her feel bad. He's refusing to do anything for her. Like, sometimes the messages that we get really blow us away. So this podcast episode is a little bit long overdue. This is something that we talk about, like, pretty frequently on Instagram and with our community, but we just had to Work up to making a podcast episode about it, try to gather our thoughts, figure out how do we tackle this issue without just going on a complete, long, angry, frustrated rant.

I mean, let's be honest. We might unload on.

We might unload on a couple things.

We got a little fired up prepping for this one. Collecting some of these stories, reading some of these stories. And honestly, I think it's helpful to just, like, get some of these bad stories out into the world so people understand, like, one. Like, I'm not alone if something similar is happening to. To me, because I think that's so easy for people to be. Like, I'm the only person that's dealing with this. I'm just going to try to forget about it. But also so people can understand, like, how often this kind of stuff is happening and realize, like, I need to make some changes in order to distance myself from this type of behavior, especially for the guys out there. Because I think there's a lot of gray area where for a guy, if you're kind of engaging in some of these activities or attitudes that are a little questionable and you hear the more extreme example and you're like, like, oh, my God, I do not want to be like that. I can see how some of my actions might be venturing a little into that territory. Let me correct myself back in. Back into the. The good zone.

So we try to make the vast majority of our podcast episodes as inclusive as possible, but with this one, we did really want to dig into the specific dynamics that come up in male female relationships and talk specifically, specifically to women who are just getting this sense, whether it's really direct and overt or it's kind of, like, confusing and complicated. But if you're getting the sense of, like, huh? I don't know if my partner really cares that much about my pleasure, my experience, my orgasm. This episode is going to be for you. So, yes, we are going to share, like, lots of stories. So even if this isn't your situation, this is going to be a pretty fascinating peek into what's going on in so many bedrooms. But we also really want to make sure that we give you practical advice, advice for what to do. Like, how do we help you get your partner on board with prioritizing your pleasure, taking care of you, learning what your body needs, and giving it to you happily and excitedly.

All right, but before we get into this scintillating content, is scintillating appropriate for this?

Sure, sure.

I mean, I guess, you know, sort of, like, get your popcorn out so you can hear some of these, like, crappy stories and us, you know, maybe, maybe, maybe not tee off on them. We're going to get into this.

Tee off.

Tee off. What? I guess that's actually a golf thing.

Going off, popping off, but not teeing off.

No, I think you can say you're going to tee off on something. You're about to, like, smash a golf club.

And I don't know about that.

Or you're playing. Or you're playing tea ball or you're playing T ball. You're going to smash.

No, you can tee something up. Like, I'm going to tee this up for you, but you don't tee off on someone.

All right, listeners, Pillow Talks Crew, please help me out. Is it fair for me to say we're going to. We're going to tell some bad stories and we're going to tee off on them?

Also, we need a name for the Pillow Talks Crew. We have not thought about this.

Pillow Talkers.

Pillowers. Like, what is the name of. Of a. Of an avid listener of the podcast?

Pillow Crew. Pillow.

Pillow. We got Pillow Fighters.

Fighters. That sounds weird. Problematic. Yeah. I don't know. This. This is a tough one. I feel like it needs to have more of, like, a double entendre.

Pillow Potters.

Pillow poppers. Sorry. That's bad, too. Yeah. If you can think of a good sexual joke on Pillow Talk, something let us know because I feel like there should be a sexual undertone to it. Speaking of sexual undertones, actually, I don't know if it's speaking of sexual undertones, but here's the review of the week. Great episode. This is the first episode I've heard so far. Sorry, everyone. I don't know what episode this person is talking about, but we'll see if we can figure it out. And I love it. I know not a lot of guys listen, but ladies, tell them to give it a try. I think it's great to learn about how to be a better partner. And I love that Xander is there to give a man's perspective on things. I am definitely a new fan. I will be listening from now on.

Oh, yeah.

Ladies, tell your mansion thank you so.

Much for this review. Reviews are such a big deal for the podcast. It really helps us grow and reach new people. So we really, really appreciate you taking the time to write us a quick review in Apple Podcasts. And we do this weekly giveaway. Once you write a review, you are entered into it every week going forward. And if you are picked as a review of the week you can DM us on Instagram anessamarintherapy. Ask us a question and we will shoot you back with, we'll tee you up to you off.

Well, we'll.

We'll tee off on you with our best personalized.

We're not, we're not going to tee off on you. I don't think you know what tee off means.

I don't think you do. All right, so let's get into it. So, as always, we turn to our Instagram community to get a sense of the numbers of this. Like, we get so many messages, of course, but we wanted to, like, get percentages of how often this comes up.

We had a pretty good idea and I think it got confirmed, right?

Yeah. Okay. So first we asked women, tell us, have you ever been with a male partner who seemed to not care that much about your pleasure? And 65% of women said yes. Honestly, I thought that would be higher because we framed it as ever. I know we have a lot of people in our community who have only ever had their, like, one current partner, but I feel like I honestly, I feel like every woman has had at least one experience of feeling like the guy just didn't care about.

Yeah. You know what I think is a bit of a challenge with this is like, how do you, you know, if you've had some one night stands or something? Like, maybe you just don't really have a basis to, to judge or you're like, oh, well, I'm not really gonna count that because, like, it was super casual and we were drunk and who, you know. Yeah, we never did it again. Like, I'm not really sure how I would categorize certain experiences that I've had in the past.

Yeah. So we also asked, like, does this happen with your current partner? And we put a bunch of different options that they could choose from. So one of the options was, like, at an earlier period in our relationship, I felt like he didn't care, but now, you know, now it's different. So that was 21% of people with their current partner. And then we also said, like, currently it doesn't feel like he cares. And 11% said that was their situation. So we've got about in like a third, third of couples in their current relationship have had some period of their relationship where they felt like their partner didn't really care.

Honestly, I feel like these numbers are a little deflated. I think it's likely after you listen to this episode, you might listen and be like, you know what? Some of these dynamics Maybe do exist in my relationship a little bit. I think we are just, all of us men and women are socialized to minimize a lot of this stuff, and we'll get into how that works. But, you know, I think go into listening to this with an open mind and, you know, if you hear anything that resonates with you, like, it doesn't mean that something is wrong with your relationship. It just means that there's work that we could do to have an even better relationship and to enjoy things even more. I mean, I think one of the most rewarding things in this business for me is when we hear from people who listen to our content, purchase our products, who are like, you know what? I thought things, we're really good. And we tried this to spice things up a little bit or learn this or learn that. And I realized there was so much more available to me. I didn't even know how good things can be. And thank you. And so, like, I love that. And so, you know, that could be true for your relationship too. It could be true for our relationship. We could be missing things. We could still have next levels to get to, babe.

Oh, we do, for sure. There's always the next level to get to. Okay, so we gathered up all of these stories and we divided them into three general scenarios. So, of course, like, human beings are complex. We don't fit neatly into only three buckets. But we had to organize the episode in some way. So we broke it down into three different buckets. And we're going to walk you through each of those and share with you, like, what happens, some stories of this happening, and our best advice for getting out of this scenario. So the first one is he makes zero effort. So we're talking situations where, like, he's never gone down on me, he's never touched me. He's never, like, really tried to make sure that my orgasm happened. So I think on the surface, these kinds of examples sound pretty intense, right? Like, what is going on with this guy that he has, like, never even tried to help this woman orgasm?

Yeah, that's messed up.

And there definitely are scenarios where the guy just is a straight up asshole and, like, really and truly, genuinely does not care. But I think a lot of the examples in this bucket actually fall into the innocent misunderstanding category. Yeah, I'm throwing out a lot of things. We've got the scenarios, categories. Buckets, umbrellas, got a lot of stuff going on.

It's like the innocent misunderstanding or like, innocent slash, not so innocent, like, poor socialization, like, bad messages from Society, Yes.

I think the truth is that like a lot of men just don't know what women need. We all get taught BS about female pleasure, how vulvas work, what they need to experience pleasure. And so there are so many of us out there who are just walking around with a really unrealistic and inaccurate expectation of what women's bodies need to experience pleasure and orgasm.

I think a lot of men also like just don't know what sex really is or what sexual can be like. We get these images of what sex is from movies, basically. Like movies and tv where it's like this. Yeah. Like this very linear thing where you go from like kissing to touching to close off to penetration. And as soon as he comes, it's over. And I think a lot of these problems just stem from this idea that like, once he comes, it's over, totally over.

And the intercourse is like the main sexual act.

It's the crescendo, it's the end.

The crescendo.

For him. For him it probably is a crescendo, but not for everyone.

Yeah, I mean, I think that, that the idea of intercourse being the main thing, you know, and so many of us believe that intercourse should be enough for women to orgasm. Like intercourse works for men, it should work for women. That's the main sexual act. Like shouldn't it just happen? But the reality is that only about 15% of women can cons consistently orgasm from penetration alone. Like the vast majority of women. Intercourse can be fun, it can be romantic, very connecting. But from a pure physical sensation perspective, it's just not enough to lead to orgasm for the vast majority of women.

And for the guys out there who hear that and go, oh, it's just because they haven't found their G spot yet. That is not true. The only, the reason is because in about 15% of women, the way that their vaginal canal and clitoris are configured is that the internal part of the clitoris happens to be close enough to the vagina for penetration to stimulate it. It is not about finding some spot that everybody has because there is no special spot in there. Sorry, I hate to break it to you. Yeah. That's the only reason. It is not because, like there's something great about your dick or yours or, or whatever. Like, I'm sorry, there's a. There's physical reasons for this. And unfortunately a lot of guys and a lot of women just think that there's like something that they haven't tried yet. Some toy they haven't tried, some position they haven't tried some spot they need to find. And I'm sorry, it's just. That's. That's just not true.

So let me read a story that's a perfect example of this, like, innocent misunderstanding type of dynamic. So this is what this woman wrote. I actually didn't orgasm the first two years with my husband. He never said anything, and I was increasingly getting bitter that he didn't seem to care. Never asked about my experience, et cetera. And I just finished the job on my own. I started following you guys, and I got the balls to start a conversation about it. I explained that I'm not satisfied and we are going to introduce a vibrator into the bedroom to help me get there. And he was shook. He had no idea. Poor guy. He said he didn't know female anatomy and that our clit is where most women feel pleasure. I used your analogy about touching their balls. Feels nice, but it's not it. Side note here, if you have no idea what she's talking about, you have to come over to Instagram and watch our orgasm highlight. Okay, back to her story. He said, of course we can use a vibrator. So I felt bad that I had assumed the worst. I wish I didn't wait so long to say anything. Maybe some men just need that conversation. We can't assume they all even know how our bodies work. He said he thought I was finishing the whole time. Poor, sweet boy. Anyway, wasted two years not saying anything for fear of offending him or just scared to hear the truth that he did. Didn't really care. So, yeah, with that story, like, she was kind of going off about it being two years, but, like, we've had so many stories of women who took way longer to ever, you know, speak up and say something.

20 years, even more.

Yeah. So again, here's this great example of, like, she's sitting there stewing, starting to get more and more resentful about, like, why doesn't he care? And, like, yes, of course he absolutely could have and should have checked in with her.

And she could have and should have said something earlier. Like, she acknowledges.

Yeah, they both have. But I think, you know, at the end of the day, the story is like, he was happy to do whatever she wanted and was totally shocked and didn't even realize, you know, that he wasn't giving her what she needed. So I think that it. That's just such a great example of why it's so important to be able to talk about these things out loud.

Now, unfortunately, the conversation does not Always go like this. And we have some stories later where, you know, where the partner doesn't respond so well. But like she said, you just don't know how your partner is going to respond. And I think it's best to give the benefit of the doubt as much as possible. Unless our partner's given us a reason not to give them the benefit of the doubt. Like, I mean, just have the conversation and see what.

Well, here's the thing. It's like, of course, with any conversation about anything, like, there of course is the possibility that the outcome could not go well. And I totally understand that people can feel scared or anxious or nervous of, like, I don't want to hear the worst case scenario, or I didn't want to hear this, you know, this possible response that I'm so worried my partner is going to give. So I understand that. But at the same time, like, we cannot let that fear block us from having open and honest conversations. And at the end of the day, like, ultimately, isn't it better to know the truth of what's actually going on than to keep that fear just keeping you silent the whole time?

Yeah, I hope so.

Okay, so another reason that this might be falling into potential misunderstanding territory is like, maybe he's been with women in the past that have always faked orgasm or maybe have given him misinformation about orgasm. So again, it's just like another reason why he has unrealistic or incorrect expectations or is thinking that everything is fine. There are also other reasons why you might be finding yourself in this misunderstanding type of territory. So a big one is that maybe he's been with women in the past that have always faked.

This is far more common than most guys out there realize. Most women are not surprised by this because most women have faked themselves. And. Yeah, and like, I'm not saying that like, as a judgmental thing. Like, we've talked about this before. There's so many reasons to fake.

Yeah, so it could also be like that he just has his own stuff coming up around this. This could be like religious shame or guilt. Maybe he's specifically been taught that, like, it's not okay to do some of these sort of actions. Maybe it's bad social conditioning. Another big one is like, him being insecure about his technique. So maybe you can speak to this one a little bit of like, why do guys sometimes hyper fixate on intercourse?

So there's a lot of different things that can be going on here. But one big reason why a lot of men can tend to Speed towards intercourse is if they have ever experienced performance issues such as keeping an erection. Like, if they're worried that they might lose an erection in the midst of some foreplay or something like that, there can be this tendency to think, like, okay, once my penis is hard, we gotta get to the intercourse, because I cannot lose this erection. If I lose the erection, like, she's gonna judge me. I'm gonna be less of a man.

Or if it's his, like, orgasmic timing too. He's like, so nervous about coming too quickly. You kind of like to get to it and see if it's going to happen or not.

Yeah, it's like, okay, I got to get to this so that I can get things going, get into a rhythm. Like, oh, like, I don't want to let her go down on me for too long. I'm going to get too excited or something like that. You know, like, there can be all kinds of things going on.

Yeah. And then if he's embarrassed about his performance, like, he's going to want to wrap things up quickly afterwards rather than, like, staying to focus on you and make sure you've had a good experience.

Yeah, like, like to call attention to his lack of skill. It's kind of this. This messed up thing that our brains do. Like, we don't want to admit that we don't have the right skill. We have this idea that we're supposed to be good at this thing. We don't want to acknowledge that maybe we are not very good at it. So we just do all kinds of things that just kind of glaze over or speed over anything that might show us some contrary evidence to this idea that, oh, no, I know exactly what I'm doing and if I just through the end of this and then get my clothes on real quick and get out of there, like, I can still maintain this illusion that I'm an expert at sex.

Okay, so what do you do if you're in this situation where your partner has just never really had that much of a focus on you? The main thing here is education. So we want you to get your partner to follow our Instagram account so that the two of you can learn more accurate, realistic, and genuinely useful information about sex together. In particular, check out that orgasm highlight that I mentioned a minute ago. From there, you really need to talk to him openly and share with him about what you like and what you want. Ultimately, we all have to advocate for ourself and for our own experience and our own pleasure. Like, of course, being a good partner Means checking in with your partner and, like, being willing to ask them, like, how was that? What can I do for you? What would you like better? So, like, I don't want to, you know, I don't want to say it's not the guy's responsibility at all. But if your partner hasn't done that yet, like, don't shoot yourself in the foot by continuing to not bring it up. You know what I'm saying? Like, don't get so resentful at them of, like, you should be the one bringing it up that you don't bring it up.

And I'm gonna wait and see how long it takes.

Yeah, it's like, you're the one who's suffering by not still not getting any sort of attention to you. So, like, yes, he should be saying something. It's not fair that you have to bring it up. But just bring it up. Just talk to him about it. In general, we recommend focusing on the positive first. So, of course, if you, like, open up the conversation for the first time and you just go hard on him, like, you never focus on me. You're such a jerk. You don't know anything about females, pleasure and bodies. Of course it's not going to go over well.

Right? And that's a huge reason why it's better not to wait. Because the longer you wait, the more likely you are to have that conversation because you're already pissed about it. You've been waiting so long that you know after you wait that long, you are at that point where you're like, enough of this already. So don't get to that point, like, talk about this soon after. It's maybe been an issue only a couple of times.

Well, even if it's been an issue for years or even decades, like, still just start the conversation. You have to start talking about it. So talk about, like, what it is that you want in a positive and exciting way. So rather than, like, like, you never do this to me, you could say something like, it sounds so hot to have you do X, Y and Z to me. Like, I would be so turned on by that. I've been thinking about that. I had a dream about that. I heard about this on a podcast. You know, like, introduce it in a way that feels sexy and exciting and makes him want to do it. Of course, sometimes this can bring up the question of, like, but what if I don't know what to tell him? Like, maybe I've never had an orgasm or I can on my own, but I don't know how to describe to him what I want.

I.

So we'll put in a quick little plug for our foreplay guides. We walk you through exactly how to pleasure your partner with your hands and your mouth. And they're so great for couples to read together because not only does it give you the words for describing things that you already know that you like, but it also gives you tons of new techniques to explore. So even if you've never had an orgasm or never experienced a lot of pleasure before, you're going to get really practical, step by step, illustrated, like, great techniques so you can buy them and just share it with your partner and say, like, let's explore this together. Like, I got this. It sounds super sexy and really hot. I'll do you. You'll do me?

Like, yeah, there's, there's a lot of different techniques. You could probably. You could probably do like, 10 different oral sex sessions or maybe more like going through all these various techniques. It would be super fun, super hot. Honestly, I, I, this thought just came to me as you were describing them. These foreplay guides are for sure responsible for hundreds of thousands of orgasms at this point. Maybe even, maybe even millions.

I wish we could get a little orgasm tally going on.

Oh. I mean, I'm thinking about, like, how many. Just, like, how many we have sold. And if it's like, each one ends up being responsible for just like 10 orgasms, like, we're getting into hundreds of.

Thousands or millions territory, like, these are legit little counters of, like, customers served or whatever.

The McDonald's thing.

Yeah, like orgasms created. So actually, if you have our foreplay guides, come over to Instagram anessamarintherapy and shoot us a DM and let us know, like, roughly how many orgasms do you think these guides are responsible for? We gotta get a tally going. Okay, so let's move on to the second scenario. And this one is that he makes minimal effort, so he does a little bit of something, but it's pretty minimal.

Yeah, you know, minimal maybe isn't even a great word because that kind of brings to mind, like, oh, he does the bare minimum. And the reality is this isn't the bare. Like, no, it's not like, oh, like, this is the bare minimum that I need. It's like, he doesn't do enough. He doesn't really make enough. He makes effort, but it's not enough.

So we went over to Instagram, we put some polls up about this, and 40% of women said that their partner doesn't consistently make an effort to Focus on her and make sure she's having a good time. 42% said, he'll go down on me or, like, touch me, but it's only for a minute or two and then he moves on.

Yeah. So this is why a little earlier I said, I thought that 11% of people who said their partner doesn't prioritize their pleasure was a little underblown. Because then right here, 40% of people are saying he doesn't consistently make an effort. I mean, I think this is illustrative of the issue of the issue here. It's scintillating and illustrative.

No, but.

But honestly, what this tells me is that most guys don't know what they need to do. They don't really know what is expected of them or what is required of them. And most women don't really know their worth or value in terms of, like, what they deserve and. And know that they should be asking for it. You know, like, 40% of people are saying he doesn't really consistently make an effort, but only 11% of them are like, oh, like, it's a problem. Like, most. Most people are like, yeah, he doesn't really make an effort, but it's no big deal. And we heard it say. Well, it's not. We're not saying, like, this is a deal breaker, but we're saying it's a big deal. It is a big deal.

So what might be going on in this situation where he's just doing this very. Not even the bare minimum?

Not the bare minimum.

Sub.

Bare minimum.

Sub. Bare minimum.

SBM.

Oh, okay. So first possibility is that it may actually be the same sort of issue that we mentioned in scenario one, like, a lack of proper information about what women really need. So our story actually falls into this very bucket. So early in our relationship, when we first started being sexual with each other, I started to notice very quickly that, yeah, Xander was one of those. Like, he'd spend a minute or two on me and then very quickly move on. And it started to bother me, like, very quickly if, like. Like, what the heck? Like, he's just barely going through it kind of feels like it felt like you were going through the motions a little bit and, like, didn't really care. And, you know, it's like, I would start to get excited and start feeling good, and then it's like, on to intercourse. And I was like, what the hell? Like, why even bother going down on me for, like, 30 seconds? And then moving on, like, it just felt like such a throwaway kind of thing.

Well, I mean, and in addition to that, I think more of the issue was that like during intercourse it would end once I orgasm. And like there wasn't really much follow up of like, hey, did you get an orgasm? What can we do to help you get there? Or in the middle of sex, like, what can we be doing to get you more stimulated? Like, it was just kind of like.

Like you were doing your thing.

I was focused on me. And then once I got mine, then it was like, okay, coy. I hope she's good.

Yeah. And so I remember thinking at the time, like, God, this guy like seems so amazing in every other way, but he's kind of, of selfish and like kind of a jerk in the bedroom. And fortunately I had the wherewithal to like bring up a conversation with you about it. It was not very skillful at the time because I just didn't really like have that communication toolkit yet.

And I am sure I, I know I didn't respond very skillfully either because I also was lacking that. We muddled our way through.

We did, we mucked our way through. And what ended up happening was that Xander shared with me that like the last girlfriend that he'd been with before me had told him that it's really hard for women to orgasm. They usually don't. And like the best thing for you to do is like, just focus on yourself. So rather than focusing on the woman and like putting pressure on her and like making her feel so bad, it was better to like just do your own thing.

Yeah, she, she did me dirty.

She, she was basically in a number of ways.

Yeah, she, she was basically like, look, it's like sex is really pleasurable whether I have an orgasm or not. And like sometimes I do have an orgasm and it's really awesome. And when I don't have an orgasm, like I still feel like I get the same level of satisfaction out of, out of sex. So like you might as well not be focusing on like making sure it happens. And she's like. And that's how it is. She's like, I'm gonna like let you in on a secret. Like that's how it is for all women. And I was 19, I think at the time, and little 19 year old me was like, oh my God, I got the secret. And like. And unfortunately, you know, I started operating that way and it felt to me like I sure did have the secret because, you know, up. And it wasn't until I caught to Vanessa that she actually said something about it to me.

Nobody else not the cheat code.

No. Nobody else said anything to me. And I know for sure that there was a lot of faked orgasms. There were a lot of white lies around, like, what was or wasn't enjoyable. And thank God Vanessa said something because otherwise I would probably still be operating that way and. And I would think that I was being a good guy.

Yeah. So another example of like, the kind of actual innocent misunderstanding type of territory that a lot of these scenarios can fall into.

Yeah. And I mean, the other part of it for me was that it wasn't that I. I didn't enjoy focusing on her. It was that sex felt like a kind of like, awkward and high stakes thing. Right. Like, as a guy, I felt like I needed to know what I was doing. I needed to be really competent and skillful. And it felt scary to talk about it. It was like, you just do this thing and you gotta wow your partner and whatnot. And so, like, I did enjoy, like, stimulating her with my hands, with my mouth, but the reality was that, like, it felt like, awkward to like, insist on doing something and like, I didn't really know if she was enjoying it or whatever. I think early on, like, you maybe encouraged me not to give you too much oral sex because, like, you were kind of conditioned as well to like, oh, like, women aren't supposed to, like, want that too much. And so then it was like, okay, well, I guess, like, intercourse is like the safe thing to do, so that's what we'll do. And if we don't get there, then I fall back on the piece of information my ex gave me, which is, I don't need to worry about it. It worked out really well for me, just not for Vanessa.

So again, yeah, ours was kind of a more innocent misunderstanding. Fortunately, we were able to have that conversation and move past it. But there are definitely people falling into this category where it is not quite so innocent. And I think it's important to. To just speak to the fact that, like, I think the really unfortunate and frustrating and shitty reality is that men are really socialized to like, put themselves first and put their own pleasure and their experience first. And there are a lot of men who do go into sex just sort of feeling like their experience is the more important one. So I'm going to share this story that somebody sent in and I honestly, I was teetering between putting it in this category of like, the minimal effort versus our next category, which we'll share in a minute. But let me read this one. If I get an orgasm during sex, it's almost always after the real sex, intercourse and his orgasm and inevitably feels like an afterthought. It often feels like masturbation since it's just me touching myself. There have been times where it seems clear from his body language, facial expressions, or even an audible sigh that he is doing this out of a sense of obligation. I get little engagement from him during this, and it feels like something we are just checking off of a list so we both get a turn. So if I think things are taking too long or I get in my head, I often just abandon ship altogether. Okay, so here's the reason I was going back and forth. Because when I hear things like, you know, his body language or facial expressions, I wonder if there is a miscommunication there where maybe what's going on for him is, like, he's feeling embarrassed that he came so quickly. Or maybe he's just kind of tired after his orgasm. Because a lot of men do get tired.

Yeah, that is a very real thing. I just, I want to acknowledge that, like, when a guy has an orgasm, the way that guys tend to feel after orgasms and the way that many women feel after orgasms are a bit different. Many women feel energized. Most men, I mean, like, hormones get released that actually make you feel tired, make you feel not up for sex or, like, not up for you having intercourse anymore. And there's evolutionary reasons for that. But I think it's important to acknowledge that because I'm not trying to minimize that. But I think the important thing for guys to hear is that just because that happens doesn't mean that you have to go to sleep. It doesn't mean that, like, you have.

You got a power dog, dude.

Like, yeah, like, you gotta power through. We do things for each other that aren't always the most pleasant. Like, when it comes to sex, like, I don't know, like, I, I, I, I'm just gonna be honest here. Like, I know, like, I know that you enjoy giving me oral sex, but I think, you know, the reality is, like, if you were giving me oral sex for a very long time, like, it can't be the most pleasant thing in the world. Like, your neck, your mouth. Like, that's just the reality of this thing that we do. I mean, honestly, like, sometimes having, like, just intercourse, if you're going for a long time, like, you get into a position, like, your arms are getting tired, you're sweating and stuff, like, there's definitely times where it's like, all right, really.

Exerting myself here you're working up for that payoff.

But I mean, like, this. When we love each other and we care about each other's pleasure, like, this is. This is what we do.

Yeah, no, that is a good point, because I think, yeah, we do talk a lot about trying to, you know, focusing on your partner and enjoying the experience and not making them feel bad about it. And I do think it's important to be honest and realistic, that sometimes it is an effort, and that's okay. Like, we don't want to make our partner feel guilty or bad or, like, there's something wrong with them. But, like, I do think it's okay to acknowledge, like, sometimes it is a little bit of an effort.

And also, to the guys out there, if you know that after you have an orgasm, you are just, like, totally out and incapable, there's a very. Yeah, then she comes first. There is a very simple solution. Like, if, you know, hey, after I come, I cannot do anything for 10 minutes. I mean, in general, I would just challenge you on that a little bit. But if you really feel like, man, I just can't do it. I don't want to do anything. Super easy. You don't get to come until she does. That's it.

Going back to this story, though, the. Where it teetered for me was the, like, the audible sigh. Like, audible size could be. You know, we could miscommunicate about what. Maybe it's actually a pleasurable sigh for him, but versus what's in. What's a bad side?

Actually, that. That one could have been good.

That was a good one. It could have gone either way.

I'm curious how these get picked up in these mics. I should have put my. I should have put my mouth closer.

You don't want to do them all again?

I don't know. I'm gonna be honest here. I've been known to make some funny orgasm noises.

Oh, yeah.

Sometimes it may be like, if you heard it in a vacuum, you might think something was wrong. Only. Only sometimes, though, people. Yeah.

So, I mean, she's also saying that she gets this, like. Yeah. It feels like she's not getting very much engagement out of him. So this is a tricky one, but ultimately, we decided to put it into this category. So let's talk about, like, what to do if you're in this. This scenario where your partner's just, like, making such a minimal effort and you want more from them. So first thing that we recommend is giving your partner more frequent reminders in the moment. So if your partner is One of those people where like, maybe you ask for, for more foreplay. You're like, I just want more foreplay. And they do it for like one or two times and then they're back to no foreplay again. This is a good tip for you is like, you just have to give more frequent reminders. It would be great if you could tell your partner any request and just once you would make that request and they would always listen to it. But we often need frequent reminders. Like, it just doesn't work that we get a request one time and we can nail it going forward. Except for me and the toothbrush request, because I'm still killing it at that one.

You are killing it in the toothbrush department. Thank you. I gotta say.

You are.

Absolutely. I never in my wildest dreams thought that this would be going so well.

Me neither.

And actually, the funny thing is, to all of you listening, if you know that, if you don't know what it is, then, sorry, it's just an inside joke. You gotta listen to all the podcast episodes.

Tell them which podcast episode it's in.

I don't remember offhand. You tell me.

It's the. Oh, I. Oh, no, my partner isn't into self improvement. There we go.

All right. I mean, so like, here's the thing. It's a tiny ask and it actually shouldn't. It shouldn't bring me so much pleasure just to see the toothbrush ready, but it does. Or not even ready for me. It's not ready for me. That would be her putting my toothbrush head on, but just she takes hers off. It's in the charger. It's ready to go for me to do mine. It's like, brings me an absurd amount of pleasure. So that's a good argument for just asking for what you want. It's even more. It's not just the pleasure of whatever they give you. It's also the pleasure of like, hey, they didn't used to do this. I asked for it, and now I'm getting it.

Also, I have to give one quick little follow up before we get off this tangent, but we did get a DM from a dentist who said it is okay to share a toothbrush. So boom.

Hell yeah. We're fluid bonded, baby.

Okay, maybe we should go back to sharing one now.

Yeah, no, we don't anymore. And I'm not going back because I my like, I like my bigger toothbrush head. My gum care toothbrush head.

All right, so going back to this example of like, giving more frequent reminders so it's like when you are being intimate with your partner, like, tell them something like, you know what sounds really hot right now? Like, I want you to go down on me. I want you to touch me. I want you to use this toy on me. Or, like, how about you go down on me first, then I'll go down on you next. If your partner is still trying to, like, move ahead, do not let them. Like, don't let your partner move on to intercourse until he has pleasured you. So you can be a little bit more direct here. Like, you can say to your partner, like, hey, not so fast, buddy. Like, let's have you take care of me first. Or you can say something maybe a little more playful, like, oh, I'm not done yet. Or you're not done yet. Get back down there.

Yeah. When it comes to this, like, the thing that comes up for me as a guy just hearing this, that I. I think a lot of guys will relate with is that there is this. There's this fear about erections and losing them in the, you know, stage of, like, I'm getting excited, we're starting to touch each other, but before we have sex. And I think that a lot of guys are like, oh, but if I spend too much time focusing on her, I'm going to lose. I'm going to lose this erection that I have, and then it's going to be like, then I'm not going to be ready to go, or I'm not going to be able to get it back up. And so I think this is somewhere where you, as the partner, can help assuage your partner's fears. Well, I'm using a lot of big words.

Yeah. Did you do some SAT prep?

Yeah, I did.

Over the weekend.

I'm going back to school, guys. No, but I think you can. You can allay their fears. I'm like, I know there's a simple word.

I can't think of it.

I can't think of it. But you can soothe them a bit by being like, you know, you focus on me, then. Like, I'm gonna focus on you. Like, the expectation is not that you get, you know, we start making out, you get hard, and you're hard the whole way through. Like, I'm not expecting you to have a raging boner if you're gonna spend five minutes or ten minutes on me. But I think this is a great opportunity to be like, hey, like, we both get to focus on each other. And, like, you know, hey, if you focus on me, you get me an Orgasm or you get me really excited, then, like, like, I'm gonna go focus on you. I'm gonna get you rock hard, and then we can have intercourse.

All right, so bottom line here, make those repeated requests. Give him a bit of time to, like, get used to this, realize that this is, you know, the new normal.

Here, and figure out if he needs anything from you in order to make this kind of a synergistic exchange.

Oh, synergistic. Okay. And, you know, if he still is not doing it consistently even after these repeated reminders, then it's time to have a conversation outside of the bedroom and let him know, like, look, this is what I really want from sex. Like, foreplay is sex. It's not something that we just do before we move on to intercourse. It's not something that we do sometimes when we're in the mood rather than, like, when we're just having a quickie. It's just, you know, straight to the intercourse.

And actually, you said, this is what I want. I would even go with stuff further and say, this is what I. I need.

Oh, yeah, this is what I need.

Because I think. I mean, we'll hear. Hear about this in the next category, but when it's like, this is what I want, then it opens it up for, like, him. Like, some guys are gonna try to convince you that, like, no, like, that's not what you want. But if you are really clear, this is my need. This is what I need. Like, you can't tell me otherwise. Like, this is just what I need for this to be a good relationship for us.

Yeah. I mean, one thing that we share in the foreplay guides, like, on the first page, is that we actually hate the word foreplay because it implies that these are the things that you do before you have sex, but they're not. Like, foreplay is sex. Foreplay is core play. So you might need to have that conversation, like, outside of the bedroom to really help your partner understand this is the need. Every single time. All right, let's bring this home with scenario number three. This is my favorite titled one. This is just straight up, like, he is being a jerk.

Yeah. Let's tee off.

Tee off on these guys.

Tea time, baby.

So this category includes, like, he just refuses to touch me, to go down on me. He makes me feel bad about needing this. And when we pulled our Instagram audience, 4% of women said that this is what's happening with their current partner. Like, he's just refusing or making her feel bad.

So I am sorry to every Single one of you ladies in this scenario.

Oh, and you're about to feel a whole lot more sorry when you hear these stories. Let's actually trade off reading these.

All right.

Okay, here's. We're gonna go through four of them. Here's the first one. My husband never makes an effort to ensure I've been pleasured. He usually attempts to get me going for about two minutes. Then he goes for his own pleasure. He always finishes and I finish one fifth of the time. I've brought it up to him multiple times, so this is not. Not in the innocent misunderstanding category. I've brought it up to him multiple times and it never goes anywhere. I get the response that I'm not focused enough to get mine or that he is too tired.

Oh, man. I mean, it's. It's like, why are you guys even having sex if the idea is, like, about getting mine and getting yours? Like, is there nothing?

Just masturbate. If that's all you care about, getting yours, just masturbate.

Just masturbate. You can do it as much as you want. Like. Like, you can get yours as much as you want. You don't even need to worry about her. Like, why is he even wasting his time?

All right. It's about to get so much worse.

My hubby of nine years has only given me oral once. That is all I want. I think about it all the time. When I've talked to him about it, he says that he just doesn't like it and that any guy who says he enjoys it is not telling the truth.

He's calling you a liar.

How does that make me feel? Dirty? Undesirable? Awkward? Well, I can say this guy's got no idea what he's talking about because I love it. I know thousands and thousands of other men who like it. Listen. I mean, I'm just saying, like, listen to this podcast.

Oh, yeah.

I mean, but yes, there are millions. Hey, there are billions of men in this world who like it. The vast majority of men like it. And most men, women who think they don't like it. It's. It's like a social or religious conditioning, like, just to be really honest. So I would invite this guy to think why. Okay, if you don't like it, like, what are you doing sleeping with women first? Like, honestly, like, what are you. Like, what are you doing? This. This is like the. Oh, I want to have sex so bad, but that vulva is disgusting. So gross like that. It just doesn't make any sense.

Alright, let's get even Worse, my husband does not care, makes jokes at my expense, tells me how gross my vagina is, and blames me for my experiences or lack of sex in my current relationship has always been just sex with penetration, no foreplay, and is done when my husband has finished. He told me it's my fault sex doesn't last as long as that. There's something wrong with me because he hasn't had this issue with other women. I am going to barf, bro.

The reason why you haven't had this issue with other women is because they have been faking orgasm.

Even if they have, Even if he has made magically, even if this jerk has made every single other woman that he's ever been with orgasm, who cares? You married this woman. So who cares what anybody else liked or didn't like? All that matters is the woman that you are choosing to spend the rest of your life with.

With. Yeah. Yeah. I'm so sorry to say this, but I hope that the, the person who wrote in about this, like, I hope you can find a husband in the future who does care.

Honestly, like, I cut out another part of this one because it was just so hard to read. Like the things that he was saying. I got really upset. And I mean, I, you know, we always try to come from a place of compassion and understanding. Like, we don't ever know the full story behind this. Like, we don't know the story behind this husband. Maybe he's been really awful things of his own. Maybe he just has a complete and utter lack of information about sex. Maybe he's had partners who have said terrible things like this to him in the past. So we don't know what his story is. And I do want to try to like, hold on to some thread of compassion because ultimately I think that people, I think we want to be good partners to each other. It's just that we don't know how. Yeah, we don't know how. We have so much crap. But what we are seeing in this story is completely and utterly unacceptable. Like, like making jokes, telling her how gross her vagina and her vulva are. Like, that is unacceptable. It's not okay. It's absolutely not okay.

Yeah. And I mean, I think the, the reality here is that, yeah, like, even if this person has had some really horrible experiences, some horrible trauma that is causing them to behave this way, like, like you, that person is going to need a major wake up call. Like, is literally going to need to be shaken into realizing they need to do the work to start changing. And it sounds like this person is absolutely no willingness or open mindedness to start doing that work like in this relationship. And so I think unfortunately the only opportunity to get that type of wake up call to work on themselves, to get some therapy to figure out what is actually going on with them that is causing them to behave this way. Like I think the only thing in this case is, is gonna be a breakup.

Yeah. Or a lot of therapy.

Oh yeah. But I'm saying the person doesn't seem willing.

Well, you don't at all. We don't know about that. But yeah, I mean, so. And I want to speak like directly to the woman who sent this in too. Like again, we don't know the full story. Like there may be so many other aspects of this that we don't know, but the pieces that we have are unacceptable. And I really and truly hope that you know, or you can come to internal, like to come to understand that this is unacceptable and you deserve more. You deserv more. You should not stand for this. And we will talk a little bit more about like you know, what to do if you're in this situation in a moment. But I really hope that, you know, you don't deserve this. And this is complete and utter and he needs to stop immediately. Okay, we've got one more to go. This one's pretty bad too. And I just want to give a little bit of a heads up to people. Like this one veers a bit into assault. Assault territory, to be completely honest. So if you're just not in a place right now where you want to hear that, I'd say skip ahead maybe like 2 minutes, 3 minutes right now. Just so you don't have to hear it. It's. Yeah, it's just a tough one. So just that little heads up.

My husband doesn't spend a lot of time, if any, on foreplay and would jump right into doggy. It would hurt because of how hard and deep he would go. And I would find myself subconsciously scooting away from him. I'd say it hurt and he would say I would just need to get used to it and we'd continue on, on. Eventually I cut him off totally from sex because it wasn't fair that he'd get off every time and it would consistently hurt me. It's hard to want to have sex with somebody when they don't care. And it's hard to be vulnerable and communicative when you express what feels good or doesn't feel good and end up being ignored.

Yeah, that one was so rough to read. Like, we shared this with our team and we kind of had this internal discussion, you know, with our team about it. And I think I said something like, like, I just cannot imagine having so little regard for my partner.

For someone that you supposedly love, that.

You supposedly love, that you've decided to spend the rest of your life with. Like, to have so little regard for them that you would have sex with them. Like, cause them pain and just keep on going.

Oh, you just need to get used to it.

Not just shit. Like not care at all that your partner is in physical pain. Like, this is not even, hey, I'm not enjoying this. It's not feeling great. I'm not having an orgasm. This is like, I am in pain. And to continue on and tell your and fucking gaslight your partner and say, you just need to get used to it.

Yeah, well, spoiler alert. You're not going to get used to it.

No, no, nobody's ever going to get used to or should have to get used to being in pain. And like, what kind of sicko are you that like, could you imagine continuing to be hard and have an orgasm with me? Like crying or in pain? Like, that's sick. To be able to continue and have an orgasm. Yeah, like, people play with pain in a very consensual manner. So I'm talking about something completely different.

Yeah, this isn't acceptable.

You can absolutely play with pain in the bedroom. As long as everybody's consenting, they're enthusiastic about it. But this is non consensual pain. Like, and this is fucked up and completely unacceptable. And I'm so glad to hear that she wrote like, I cut him off totally from sex. Hallelujah. Like, this man does not deserve access to your body.

Yeah. But you might consider cutting him off.

From other, from your life, from your whole life. You did a great job cutting him off from your vulva and your vagina. Now let's get this man out of your whole life. Because again, maybe there's some bigger story we don't know. We're only seeing these sentences that were sent to us. But this is fucked up beyond belief. And I, I, this is really like a breakupable relationship ending kind of thing.

I mean, I think all the examples in this category are the, the one.

At the beginning, I think like, I.

Mean it's, it's, it's kind, it's worse.

Like a, you gotta get your ass to therapy.

Like, you gotta figure this out or.

Else get the ship shape. You just shape up.

Yeah, you need to Shape up. I mean, but I mean, I think all of these are, are sort of like, you got one strike left where it's like, like, hey, this changes now or else immediately. Or like, I can't be, I can't be in a relationship, I can't be in a marriage long term with someone that doesn't value this. And you got, if you want to give them one more chance, you got one chance left.

Yeah. So, okay. If you have a partner who is refused to focus on you, just completely unwilling to. I think I kind of want to break this one down into, into two pieces. If you have a partner who refuses to go down on you or says, like, I won't do that, I do want to be really careful and say, like, we are all allowed to have our own boundaries around the specific sexual acts that feel safe and healthy and okay for us to do. And there are definitely, like, lots of men who have experienced physical trauma, sexual trauma, abuse, you know, and, and so there are men out there who don't feel safe performing certain acts. And that's okay.

Okay.

If that's the case, like, your partner definitely needs to go to therapy. Anybody who has experienced any sort of sexual abuse or boundary violation, like, you really deserve the support of, like, going to some form of therapy and being able to, like, reclaim your relationship with your sexuality. And again, you get to draw your own boundaries. So I want to be really clear about saying that, but I think unfortunately the vast majority of the cases in this category, like, like, that's not the case. Yeah. You know, so, yeah, unless there is this, you know, specific circumstance in play, like, it's really not okay for your partner to just straight up say, like, no, I'm not going to go down on you. And especially if your partner wants oral sex in return.

Like, oh, yeah, because that, that is a very common situation. I'm pretty sure every single one of these guys in here probably is like, oh, know I don't love more blowjobs. Yeah.

So. So. And yeah. And your partner also can't, like, just definitively say, like, I'm gonna do nothing for you. Like, that's not okay. That's not acceptable. So if you're in. Okay, so that's kind of one piece of it. The other piece of, like, if your partner is actively saying things that make you feel bad, like making fun of you, making jokes about you, saying derogatory things about your body, that's just an immediate, like, do not pass. Go straight to therapy.

Do not collect 200 BJ's, do not collect. Do not collect $200.

Not collect $200. Go straight to therapy. Do not collect any BJ's. You deserve. No BJ's. You need to go immediately to therapy. I will also say like in it. This did come up in a couple of the examples, which is great, but like, if you're the woman in this situation, you have to set boundaries. Do not allow your partner to like to do this kind of stuff to you. If your partner's making a joke at your expense, tell them in the moment. I am not going to tolerate you making fun of me in this way. I am leaving the room right now or I'm not going to tolerate this. I'm going to move out until we go to therapy or, you know, whatever it is. Set a boundary. If your partner is causing you pain and doesn't give a shit about it, cut them off from having sex with you. Like, I'm not willing to let you touch or access my body if you have repeatedly shown me that you have no consideration for it. Set and enforce your boundaries and get yourselves into therapy.

Yes, preach.

That's the most robotic. Yes, preach.

Well, you just, you stop very abruptly and I mean, yeah, mic drop. Oh, okay, tee off complete.

Clearly we are worked up about these and these, you know, I will say, like, these are extreme examples, of course, but I think that, that far more people are struggling with these kinds of situations than most of us think. And it's just, it's so unacceptable. I mean, I think that I said this sentence a minute ago. I think it applies for like, everybody. Like, if your partner is not showing a regard for your pleasure, for your experience, like, they just don't deserve access to your body, period. So we hope this episode has gotten you fired up to stick up for yourself, to have those conversations with your partner to start sharing what you want. And like, I hope the majority of you are more in like, you know, scenario one, scenario two. I really hope that the vast majority of situations are just these innocent misunderstandings that we have been through ourselves. But the bottom line is that everybody deserves pleasure. Everybody deserves to have a pleasurable, pain free, enjoyable experience.

Everybody who wants an orgasm, gets an orgasm.

And if you want some new and exciting and very clearly laid out tips and techniques for bringing each other more pleasure, definitely make sure to check out our foreplay guides. We will put the link to them in the show notes for this episode. They're seriously so much fun. Our bestseller, our best reviewed item. Like, even if you feel pretty good about your skills, there's some next level stuff in these, so definitely check them out.

Hell, yeah. All right, well, that's it for today's episode of Pillow Talks. Thank you so much for listening. Join us again next week when we talk about falling into the dreaded roommates phase of a relationship and why no one is talking about it.

Got out my. Oh, yeah.

That was awkward. God, if you're gonna say it, say it louder.

Oh, yeah.

All right, we're out.