EPISODE 64: Are You Roommates or Romantic Partners?

Man, I really miss. We used to go on like little daily walks around the block with each other. Or we used to leave each other cute little notes in our bedside table. Or we used to always kiss hello and goodbye. Hello and welcome to the Pillow Talks podcast. We're your hosts, Vanessa and Xander Marin. I'm a sex therapist with over 20 years of experience.

And I'm just a regular dude. We share the ups and downs in our relationship while giving you step by step techniques for improving yours.

Make sure you subscribe for your weekly double date full of totally doable sex tips, practical relationship advice, hilarious and honest stories of what really goes on behind closed bedroom doors, and so much more. It's the sex education you wish you'd had. Hey, roomie.

Hi. What's up?

You're late on the rent this month.

Oh, shit.

What are you gonna do to pay it off?

Oh, my God. I'm gonna. I'm gonna have it soon. But I have one idea for how I can make it up to you. Yeah, but this is not what this episode is about, unfortunately. It kind of sounds like a little fantasy episode. Just kidding.

Please don't bring back the milkman. Just the roommates. You caught onto that a lot faster than I thought you were going to. Trying to catch you off guard a little bit, but you just went straight into the roleplay.

All you want to do is make me pay.

So today we are talking all about the roommates phase in a relationship. So we actually got the idea for this episode because we found this TikTok that said something like, you know, why does no one ever talk about the roommates phase of a relationship? And there were just thousands and thousands of comments on this. Like, it was such a simple TikTok, but it was a great example of one of those ones that just kind of catches people's attention and they're like, oh, my God, yeah, why are we not talking about this?

Yeah, like I'm going through this, but like, you never hear about it otherwise. Like, no one actually admits to to it until you hear someone else talking about. You're like, oh, my God, I'm there too.

Before we go any further, we just want to say thanks to Dipsy for supporting Pillow talks. Dipsy is an audio app full of short, sexy stories. If you're looking to light a spark or heat things up, there is a story waiting for you. You can get an extended 30 day free trial when you go to dipseastories.com pillow. So the roommates phase. If you've never heard this phrase before. And you're like, what is this podcast episode? What did I just start listening to?

Why am I listening?

So this is when romantic partners, like people in a relationship, stop seeing themselves as romantic partners and more like people just living in the same space.

Well, not necessarily. Not necessarily seeing themselves. I think that implies, like, a level of volition. Like, I don't.

Volition. Hitting us again with the sat words.

Oh, yeah, I'm. I'm on it.

All right. What does volition mean?

Actively wanting something. Like. Like, actively wanting to be roommates. I think we'll. As we'll discuss later, no one wants to. To be in this place. It's more like you come to realize, oh, shit, we are kind of more like roommates right now than we are partners.

Yeah. So it's this sense of, like, you've lost the spark. You've lost that romantic connection. You're not flirting with each other. You're probably not having sex unless you have a lot of sex with your roommates. Sure. Go for it.

But I actually just had the very strong desire to just break out in this song. You lost that love and feeling Whoa, that love and feel. Oh, God, this is. This is getting bad. You've lost that love and feeling now it's gone, gone, gone Whoa. This just. That actually just reminds me of, like, Top Gun.

Well, that, I have to say, I'm really impressed because that's the most lyrics in a song that I think you've ever remembered. Usually you have, like, one line, and then you're like, I don't know what kind comes next, you know?

I do.

Wow. That was, like, a whole chorus.

Yeah. I mean, yeah, I guess that is the chorus of the song. I do know it. I have seen Top Gun a number of times. It's kind of seared into my brain. But I will say, once I started, I kind of had a moment of panic because I was like, the only way to sing this song is to really go all it. You have to go for it. Like, I was gonna kind of casually sing it, and I was like, I don't think this song can be casually sung.

When we started recording this podcast, did you ever in your wildest dreams think that you would be singing in approximately 50% of our episodes?

Nope.

Did you ever think that I would force you to dance before every single podcast episode?

Nope. And actually, I forced you to dance before this one.

We had a good dance party, right? Party. Before we got started recording.

We did. You know what's funny? This is a total tangent, but I think I used to always scoff internally when I heard advice where it's like, oh, have a dance party. Like, have a dance party by yourself, or have a dance party with your partner or, like, with your roommate or your friends. I was like, who the hell is just, like, gonna dance to know me? Or just, like, put on music in. Like, dance for like, a minute or two. Like, in my mind, it was like, oh, the only time you ever do that is, like, when you, like, go out to a club or something like that. And even then, it's still awkward. But, you know, I've come to realize that there are some very therapeutic benefits to dancing in silence. I mean, it's just.

I mean, we.

It's the laugh, you know, the laughs that come afterwards.

Yeah. That we should do an episode about that. The power of the dance party. It's not always silent. There's sometimes a little bit of. Actually, today I wish we had put.

Some music on, but, you know, I was just like, we gotta get this. We gotta get this dance in and done.

Okay. Tangent in a tangent. I think that's one of our specialties. But anyways, going back to the roommates phase, we asked our Instagram audience if they have ever experienced this phase. Like, ever experience feeling more like roommates, and 91% said yes. Dang, that's a lot, right? So today we're going to be talking about why we get into the roommates phase in the first place. And probably the most important question that you want answered if you're listening to this episode, how we get out of it.

All right, but before we get into all that good stuff, we gotta get into the very best part of the episode. Our review of the week. And seeing how much of a fool I can make of myself when I read this.

It's just really best to catch you off guard. Like, Xander doesn't get to see these reviews of the week beforehand.

I don't. They're kept under lock and key, actually. No. Just kidding. One of these weeks, I'll, like. I'll sneak a peek in advance and have something, like, really, really, really great prepared.

The whole fun is like you seeing it for the first time.

All right, all right, well, here we go. First time reading this. Sexual Freedom and Empowerment.

All right.

Is the title. I'm actually writing this with tears in my eyes. Oh, wow. I'm so sorry that I started that way. Wow. Now I feel like an asshole.

You messed up the vibe on that one.

Sexual Freedom and Empowerment. I'm actually writing this with tears in my eyes. And then there's a tearful emoji. Vanessa and Xander are the heroes that I didn't even know I needed. I could write a novel on why I love this couple so much. Please do. And how their content has changed my life. But I'll try to keep this short and sweet. After just a few short months of following Vanessa and Xander, I've started the process of understanding and healing from past sexual assault and from the toxic side of purity culture. I've claimed newfound freedom over my body, mind, and sexuality. Vanessa and Xander have also helped me find my voice. They've given me the tools and language that I needed to have healthy, positive, and productive conversations with my husband that were long overdue. It feels as though up until this point, my husband and I were signed up for the limited free trial of sex. Double thumbs down. Now, thanks to Vanessa and Xander, we're enrolled in the Ultra Platinum Super Deluxe lifetime membership, complete with bonus features. Wow. Maybe we gotta. We have to put this package together and start selling it.

Oh, my God. Who wouldn't want to buy the Ultra Platinum Super Deluxe Lifetime membership?

Yeah, mate. Or like throw Magnum in there and then. And then you got everything.

This person's a great writer.

I know. All right. Quadruple fire emoji. Vanessa and Xander, thank you for all you do. Much love to you both. Hearts.

Wow.

Wow.

That was a really incredible review. Well, it's gonna make me tears in my eyes.

Misty eyed.

Thank you so much. This beautiful review and it's reminding me. I don't know if we've ever mentioned this on the podcast. We mentioned it a lot on Instagram, but since this person discussed, like, overcoming past sexual assault, I just want to mention that we have a free course that we offer to survivors of sexual abuse. And it's definitely not meant to replace psychotherapy, but it is a really comprehensive course that gives you practical strategies for making sex feel not only safe again, but pleasurable too. So we have it linked on our Instagram. If you go to our Instagram bio, it's Vanessa Marin Therapy and click the link in our bio, it'll take you to a page. We're down at the bottom of the page you'll see that free course. So if you want to get to a place of reclaiming your own sex life after going through something so horrific that nobody should ever have to go through, then definitely make sure to go check that out again. Thank you so much for this really great review.

It's.

It's super touching and so creative too. And it's Just really wonderful to. I will never get tired of knowing that we've made this kind of impact on people's lives. It's really like, I just feel so honored and so touched.

No, I mean, this is why we do it.

It really is. So thank you for the review. And we do a weekly giveaway for our review of the week. So if you leave us a review on Apple Podcasts, we enter you into this giveaway every week going forward. And if you are picked as the winner, you can DM us on Instagram. Vanessa Marin Therapy. Send us a question and we will shoot you back a free mini personalized coaching session with our best advice and tips. Just straight into your DM inbox.

Hell yeah. Just the good stuff.

So thank you for making us feel good, but also really thank you for helping the podcast grow, because reviews and ratings are the best way for this podcast to reach more people. Okay, so let's get into it. So we just kind of want to hammer this home one more time. The most important thing to know about the roommates phase is that it's so, so normal and common. Like, pretty much everyone is gonna go through it at one time or another. I mean, again, 91% of people said that they've experienced this. We actually just this morning had the idea to put up a follow up poll and ask people, like, are you in this phase right now? Because we just asked, like, have you ever experienced it? And I was pretty shocked to see this number. 46% of people said that they're in it right now.

All right, well, this is a timely episode.

That's bonkers. Half of our audience says that they are currently in a roommates phase kind of stage with their partner.

That's why you see that type of viral response on TikTok or wherever when somebody comes out and says, hey, I'm in this right now. I don't know what to do about it. No one's talking about it. And then you just see this outpouring. Like, I'm even less surprised now that I see 46% of our audience is. Is feeling like they're in that right now.

Yeah. So this happens in relationships of all kinds. But one thing that I have noticed in my career as a sex therapist is that this is even more prevalent in female. Female relationships. So there's even a term for this, like, in the lesbian community, which is lesbian bed death. This sense of like, yeah, the relationship is just all that sexual energy has gone right out of it. So this is a super common thing that happens for so many coup. That being said, of course, that doesn't mean, you know, just because it's common doesn't mean that it's not painful. Like, it is so painful to be in the middle of a roommate stage. Like, it feels sad, it feels awkward. You don't know, like, how to get out of it. It's a very stuck kind of feeling. And I think it's interesting to note that, like, we call it roommates. It's like the roommates phase. Not even the friends phase.

Yeah. Because, yeah, there's.

I've had a lot of roommates that were not friends. And let me tell you, like, it can be really awkward, like, sharing your space with somebody that you don't even get along with that well. You don't even really, like, sometimes, like.

Yeah, but at the same time, I think that. I think there's a reason why this is so prevalent, is probably because humans, by nature, we're pretty good at, like, living with each other. Like, we are, like, you know, we are not solitary creatures, like, at a basic instinctual level. And I think that fortunately or unfortunately, we are kind of hardwired to put up with a lot of shit when it comes to, you know, living together. And so, you know, it's not a surprise then that we end up at this place and we look at it, we're like, God, how did we even get here? You know, it doesn't make sense how I got here. But then you think about, like, yeah, you know, when you live with roommates that aren't, you know, that have no romantic connection to you at all. Like, if you've had that experience before, you've probably put up with a lot. You know, it's just one of those things where it's like, sometimes it's easier having that roommate. Sharing the cost of an apartment, sharing responsibilities. It's like, well, okay, at the end of the day, it's. Guess it's more worth it to. To have this and deal with these issues than not.

Well, let's talk a little bit more about why people get into this sort of stage. I think the thing with this is that it can feel so bewildering in the moment. You're like, how the hell did we get here? What happened? Like, we used to have such an incredible spark. The chemistry was amazing. Like, how did we get here? But there are actually so many reasons why this can happen. So we actually turned to Instagram and we asked people, like, what's your best guess about how you got here? What happened? And so here were the most common answers that came up. Kids was one of the most popular one and kind of all stages of it, like infertility, pregnancy, babies, kids at different ages, kids in general. A lot of people said being busy. I mean, I don't. That would be an interesting poll to house people. Like, would you describe yourself as busy? What percentage do you think would say yes?

Oh, God, I. I'm. I'm the poll master. I'm really good at guessing numbers. I mean, I don't know if it's quite fair of me to guess in advance because then, you know, we ask people later and, you know, they've already heard me saying what the answer is, but I bet you 70 to 75% of people would say that.

Really? That seems very low to me. Okay, okay, we'll have to pull it before this episode. Maybe 80. 80, I'm going to say in the 90s.

Okay.

All right. Another common answer was being in survival mode. So this is obviously, like, closely related to being busy, but a lot of people talked specifically about, like, being in such a stage of overwhelm and chaos that all you can do is focus on survival.

People also talked about having different schedules from their partner. I think very often this comes up with, like, shift work or just, like, random jobs. You are just not overlapping at all in terms of when you can be home with each other. Laziness, or just not wanting to initiate being romantic or. Or dating your partner, so to speak, like initiating dates, activities, sex, whatever.

I was kind of impressed, honestly, that a lot of people just called themselves out and they're like, I'm lazy. Yeah, I mean, I think a lot of us hide behind, like, I'm too busy. I've got too much going on. And I don't mean to downplay because I know, you know, the vast majority of us have a lot of stuff on our plates, but I just kind of respected that brutal honesty of somebody being like, yeah, I'm just lazy. Like, I could do it, but I don't. I don't really want to, or I don't have the energy, or I choose to do other things.

Honestly, I think it's a good first step to getting out of it, actually, is being able to take responsibility for what's going on with you, rather rather than just being like, oh, it's, it's. It's all these external things and I have. I have no part in it. And this one is like, yep, it's me. It. Me, I'm lazy.

Me, I'm lazy. Next piece of merch oh, no, no, we don't want to. We don't want to promote that.

All right, moving on. Being on phones too much. I mean, maybe we broaden that one and just say kind of like technology in general, a lack of communication. And a lot of people also just said life. I mean, I think that fits in with a lot of these being busy. People talk about life happening when, you know, like, life happened when had kids, we changed jobs, we moved, we, you know, whatever it is. So, yeah, I mean, life. Life. Life is to blame for a lot of things, but we are also to blame for a lot of our own things, too.

Okay, so those were the answers that people gave to us on Instagram. We wanted to share a few more that we've thought about that maybe might surprise you a little bit or maybe it's something that you haven't thought about before. So one very important thing to point out is that a lot of this. This is chemical. Like, there's been really interesting research done on our brains and what happens when we're falling in love and in those early stages of a relationship versus later on in relationships. I'm just gonna really, really shorten and probably bastardize this a little bit. But, like, basically, at the beginning of a relationship, like, our neurotransmitters in our brain are just going wild. We have all of these different hormones surging in our body, but those can only last for a certain period of time, like, usually one to three years max.

So, yeah, your brain is literally reacting as if it is on drugs.

Yeah, it's like that intense.

Yeah. In the early stages of a relationship, and just like a drug, eventually it tolerates to those levels of neurotransmitters. You don't feel the same thing anymore. And so it's not. I think the challenge is that when a lot of people look at. In order to have the spark or in order for things to feel good between us, they have to feel like the way that they did and the way that I remember them at the beginning of our relationship.

It's not physically possible.

Realistic. It's not possible.

Not only is it not realistic, it's not physically possible. Like, your brain cannot get back into that same place. It can get into a different place that can be really still, like, exciting and fun and fulfilling. But I just think it's so important for people to recognize you're not physically capable of getting back into that stage because so many people get so scared. Exactly what you're saying of. No, it's not like what it was at the beginning, and, like, we have to get back to that place. You can't. You just can't get back to that place. Okay. The next thing that we want to talk about is bad sex. So this one is another one that.

Might be going hard.

Yeah, it might surprise a lot of people, but the reality is that none of us are taught how to have great sex. And so a lot of relationships, once we get past that, like, initial excitement of the early stage, and some people don't even have, like. Like, that really great, amazing, incredible sex and chemistry at the beginning of a.

Relationship, or we kind of convince ourselves that, oh, yeah, it's really good because we're just. We're caught up in the moment and we're really excited, or we think, actually, it's not that great right now. But I'm sure that once we get used to each other a little bit more, it's gonna get better. So we still have this idea in our mind of like, oh, yeah, it's great, it's great, it's great. And then we settle into life, and then we're like, huh, Actually, it's not that great, and I don't really know what to do.

Yeah. So pretty much every relationship will hit a where the sex that you're having is just not that great, maybe for one partner or for both partners. And most people don't make the connection between your enjoyment of sex and your desire for it. We very straightforwardly call this the enjoyment desire connection. But if you're not enjoying the sex that you're having, you're going to start craving it less and less to the point where you're just not really having it. And that's one of those hallmark experiences of the roommates phase. You're not having any sex. Kind of related to that is also rejection. So rejection. We have a whole podcast episode on this. I can't remember the number of it off the top of my head, but go back and take a listen to that. We talk a lot in that episode about how rejection is a normal and healthy part of every relationship, but we are not prepared for that. None of us likes rejection. And so once rejection starts becoming a more regular part of our sex life, a lot of us find ourselves withdrawing. It's like, well, I don't want to put myself out there and risk being turned down, so I'm just not going to put myself out there. But if nobody in a relationship is initiating, what do you think is going to happen to your sex life? All right, so now that we've gone over some of the many, many reasons why this might happen. Let's switch to switch tack. Switch track, change track. Change the tack. There's something with a tack.

Changing tracks.

What's the tack thing though? Let's switch our tack. No, you don't know it either. Get out of here. Let's do something with a tack and let's talk about how to get out of the roommates phase. But before we go any further, we just want to tell you a little bit more about Dipsea. So I actually found out about Dipsea through a client of mine a while back. We were discovering different ways for her to increase her sex drive and just like get that spark back. And she told me that a friend of hers had recommended Dipsea and she was so surprised by what a big difference it made for her. And it was great realization for me of realizing like, some people like visuals, some people are more tactile, and some people are really into audio. So Dipsea is an app full of hundreds of short, sexy audio stories and they are specifically designed by women for women. So of course we had to check this out before we accepted them as a sponsor. So we went around, we were poking around, listening to the stories and I gotta tell you, it was surprisingly hot. We were both listening like, oh, oh. So it's definitely something worth checking out. And for listeners of the show, Dipsea is offering an extended 30 day free trial. When you go to dipseastories.com pillow, that's, that's 30 days of full access for free. So you can just get in there, poke around, see if you like this audio experience and go to D I P s e a stories.com pillow. That's dipseastories.com pillow. So we have four steps for you for getting out of the roommates phase. So the very first one that we want you to start with is just to take a little bit of time to think about this, this on your own because spoiler alert. Step number two is to talk to your partner. But whenever we suggest having a conversation with your partner, like, we always want you to feel like you can go into that conversation prepared. Everybody's heard the advice, like, you just have to communicate. Just talk to your partner. And I think so like all the time it gets left out about like, well, but what am I telling my partner? Like, how do you come into that conversation prepared to have that conversation? So we always like starting with yourself first. What do you want to be different? Like, it's one thing to just tell your partner, like, we're in the roommates phase. We're stuck. And then, like, what is your partner supposed to say? Like, okay, like, what do. What do we do then? What do you want?

Yeah, that's. That's tough. Cause it's like. It's like, okay, are you coming to me looking for me to find a solution? Like, are you saying it's my fault? Like, you're calling me out for it? So I think, yeah, that's. That can be the challenge with just, like, jumping into the conversation too quickly, not having had any time to reflect on, like, what's my part in all this? What do I want? How do we address this? Like, are we taking joint responsibility for this, et cetera?

Yeah. So we want you to get specific here, and we've got a couple of questions that I think can be really, really useful for you. So the first one, this actually could be a really interesting writing exercise, but for you to, like, write down, like. Like, what is it that roommates do and what is it that romantic partners do? So we're really looking for the specifics here. And, like, you can think about, like, what are the specific things that the two of you did to become romantic partners initially? Like, what were those specific things that made you feel attracted and connected and intimate with each other? Also, you can kind of look at it through the lens of, like, what are the specific things that you really miss doing? So there may have been something from earlier stages of your relationship where you're like, oh, yeah, I don't want to do that anymore. But there may be other things where you're like, man, I really miss. We used to go on, like, little daily walks around the block with each other, or we used to leave each other cute little notes in our bedside table, or we used to always kiss hello and goodbye. So I just. Again, it's like identifying those specific daily things that the two of you could do.

Yeah. I think that this is helpful for two reasons. The first one is that this should really drive home to you. Like, there is a difference between what we used to do and what we are doing now. And, like, the things that we are doing now kind of look like things that you would expect from if you just had a random roommate sharing your house, like, sharing chores and responsibilities, maybe watching some TV together sometimes, unless you have two TVs and you watch your TV separately, you know, or, like, having a meal together. So it can help confirm to you, like, oh, yeah, this is really going on. And there are really some key differences in terms of what we used to do. Very often it can be like, oh, God, I kind of feel like we are in the roommates phase. But then you just get stuck being like, I don't even know what to. I don't know what we could possibly be doing different. So this helps highlight that. And then the second thing, like Vanessa was kind of starting to say is that, yeah, there's going to be some big things that may feel really hard. Like, we. We went on a lot of trips together or weekly date nights or something like that. But you may find just, like, things.

That don't feel possible. Yeah.

Things that may not feel possible because you don't have time, you're too busy, you don't have the money, whatever it is. But you'll probably find a number of things that are. Some easy wins.

Yeah, absolutely.

Like, Vanessa was like, oh, you know, like, oh, we used to go on a walk around the block at sunset together. And that felt really good. And that's like, oh, huh. That's something that doesn't take any money. We might be able to do that in 10 minutes. Like, that might be an easy thing to start with.

Yeah. Okay, so you're leading us into step number two, which is surprise, surprise, to talk about it. So I think one of the things that makes the roommate stage so painful is, like, nobody wants to acknowledge it. We don't want to have to have this conversation with our partner. Like, we're in the roommates phase.

Yeah. Or like, admit it. Like, admit any fault culpability.

Absolutely. So that makes it really hard to get out of if you can't even acknowledge that you're in it. So for a lot of couples, like, it almost just feels easier to keep going down that path, going more and more and more and more into roommates because you just don't want to talk about what's going on. But if you don't want that fate for your relationship, you have to talk about it.

The other thing I just thought of when it comes to this is like, a big concept in psychology, this thing called the fundamental attribution error, where, like, when good things happen to us, we tend to attribute them to internal things, like, oh, I'm smart, so I got this job promotion, or, like, I'm a good person and so blah, blah, blah, happened, or, like, I'm successful, and therefore these good things happen. However, when bad things or negative things, painful things happen to us, we are way more likely, really, like, as a psychological defense mechanism, to attribute them to external factors like, that cop was hiding in a speed trap. And that's why I got the speeding ticket. I was late, and so that's why I was going fast, or, you know, oh, my stupid boss turned me down for the promotion rather than taking any kind of responsibility. And so you can't ever change. This is the way our brains are hardwired. But I think being aware of that can really help. You know, it's sort of in between step one and this step of talking about it, of just understanding. It's really easy for me to blame all these external factors for what's going on. It's a lot harder to look at the internal reason, think, okay, what are some things that I can actually take some responsibility for that I can do myself? And so it can be really helpful to just be aware of that sort of instinct or that bias inside of us that will really want to just blame external things. But if you're going to be talking about it, you're going to get way more out of it if you are open to looking internally and think, what are some things that I can take responsibility for? What are some things that I have control that I can do?

Yeah. And again, I think that's why step one is so important for us to do. But, I mean, yeah, the bottom line is that you're going to be stuck in a gridlock until someone breaks the ice. And let's be clear, like, these conversations are not easy, but they are very natural, necessary if you want to rekindle that spark in your relationship. And we're going to give you something practical to do here. We're not just going to leave you hanging with the, like, yeah, just talk about it. So here's how we want you to bring up the conversation at first. Start small. Like, I think the big mistake that so many people make is they wait until things are feeling really bad, and then they have this huge, like, we need to talk, we're in the roommates phase. We haven't had sex in months. Like, I'm so mad at you for never going on a date night with me. Like, it turns into this enormous conversation, and we've. We've been there.

Like. Like, it's either, like, it's either an angry thing, like it comes out of a fight, or it comes out of a really sad place. Like, oh, my God, we're both so miserable. Oh, my God, like, we haven't been having sex in forever. We're more like roommates. And then it turns into this big grand thing of, like, oh, my God, wait, Like, we both want the same thing. All Right. We're gonna fix this problem, and it's gonna be just like it was before. And the problem with having these big, grand, epic conversations about it is that they feel really good in the moment, because in the moment you're like, oh, we're on the same team. We both want the same thing. And you have all this hope and you're like, oh, yeah, it's gonna be different this time. But the problem is you gloss over all the key nitty gritty details when you have the big, huge conversation about it. And literally you're having, like, neurochemicals release in your brain to feel good, and you're like, oh, yeah, it's gonna be different this time. You wake up the next day and you're like. Like, I don't know. I don't know how to start. Like, we didn't. We didn't talk about that. So you have that kind of do.

Start, but you, like, lose momentum after.

Like, oh, yeah, I am so guilty of that. I mean, I can. I'm really, like, brought back to the. Even the feeling of that. I. I get, like, flashes in my mind of, like, where we were, like, you know, physically, like the house that we were living in, what it was like, I can just remember that feeling of that. That motivation slipping away. Like, you know, for a week maybe. Things were really good. And it was like, oh, yeah, we're doing this. And then, like, it just was like, felt like life catches up again. You're like, I don't know how I can't keep this up.

Yeah, absolutely. Okay, so in this first conversation, bring in one specific activity that you identified in step one. And so you're gonna suggest that you and your partner make some space for this one thing. Again, we're just trying to make it really small and specific so it doesn't spiral into this overwhelming conversation. So here's a simple script that you can use with your partner. I miss you. So I love starting with, like, just sharing that, like, who's going to hear I miss you and immediately get, like, defensive or angry, like, how dare you miss me?

Right?

It just, like, sets your partner at ease right away.

Well, you actually, you said I miss you twice. And the first time you said it, you. You had a bit of a more aggressive tone. The second time, it sounded really. It was like, I miss you.

I miss you.

It sounded like a little bit fraught or you sounded a little wound up. The second time, you sounded great and really, really emotional. So I was gonna say. Don't say it like, Vanessa did the first time say it like she said the second time.

Okay, I'll have to rewind the tape later and see if I said it weird. Okay, so start with I miss you.

I'm giving her the thumbs up performance things. Hey, let's, you know, give the people a couple takes.

I miss you. No, I gotta keep going. Okay, so that's you. Something like that. Something where you're telling your partner, like, I love you. I, you know, I want to reconnect with you. I miss you. Something like that. So the next part could be something like, I know that we have a lot on our plates. So you're acknowledging there's a lot going on. We're both really busy. We're stressed. We're dealing with X, Y and Z. So you're just putting that out there. I know we got a lot on our plates, but you are important to me and I want us to make more space for each other. So obviously edit these words and you know in a way that it's going to feel more natural to you. But you're telling your partner, like, I want us to make that space and then end it with, let's make some time for XYZ this week.

And this is your small, easy to accomplish activity together.

Yeah, exactly. So that's just a simple way to get the conversation going and to focus on something practical that you guys could do right away.

Yeah, I mean, and this gets back. We've talked about developing habits in like a lot of different episodes. I think this gets back to that. Like, it's not about being like, okay, we are going to solve this problem overnight. Because this is a. It's a very complicated issue. There's a lot of reasons why, like, you can't all of a sudden get yourself back an extra 20 hours per week and reignite the spark and start going on date nights and planning trips and having sex all the time. Like, it's not going to happen overnight. And maybe you can fool yourself for a couple of days of like, of a Herculean effort to make it happen, but like, you can't sustain that in the long term. And so the idea here is just starting to develop a slow habit of doing a little bit more. And so like, you do this and then after that become, oh, yeah, you know what? Like we're doing that walk almost every day.

You keep leading me straight into our next step. So hold on.

Oh, my God.

Hold that thought. Number three is to come up with a new routine. So after you've had a few successes of Doing these like, kind of one off activities with each other. It's time to have a bigger conversation about specific ways to work quality time with each other into your schedules on a regular and ongoing basis.

And this can be a really good time to reset or just set reasonable expectations. Part of this conversation can be like, what can our relationship really actually look like during this season of life that we're in and, and try to be really honest. That's why we're trying to tell you to set some small, reasonable goals at first. Because, like, the idea here is that if it's like, okay, you know what? We got three kids, they each have crazy schedules, they're doing all kinds of things. We're both working jobs. It's not going to be reasonable to be like, we're going to do date night twice a week. We're going to spend like an hour every night watching TV together. Those things might be great, you might really want to do them, but they might not really be practical. On the flip side, like, I can speak from my experience here. On the flip side, like, when Vanessa and I were starting to have issues like this earlier on in my relationship, having this conversation forced me to get really honest with myself about what I really could or couldn't do. And when I got honest with myself, I was like, okay, I'm spending a ton of time at work. I keep saying yes to things. I've never actually tried saying no to something at work. I haven't really gotten myself very organized. I actually could be spending a lot more time with Vanessa. It requires me to do something else that feels tough for me, which is setting better work boundaries and getting myself more organized. But if it comes to okay, like, I can either continue being miserable at work and not seeing much of Vanessa, or I can have more time with Vanessa and tackle this other thing that's actually going to help me in my work life. Like, it was like, okay, yeah, I can reasonably commit to doing this work.

Yeah, this step is important for any couple, but I think it's also especially important for people with kids. And here's a really interesting kind of reframe to take on this. Like, you've already had your whole world rocked at least once, maybe several times with the arrival of a new child. Like, you've already created new routines at least once so you can do it again. Of really taking a look at your schedule, making adjustments and figuring out how to prioritize your relationship with your partner.

Yeah, I think where, where people tend to really go wrong here is that they immediately default to thinking, oh well, it has to look like exactly the way it did right when we first started dating. Like the last time that I can remember us really having that spark, we have to do those exact same things. And that may just not be possible anymore. So the key here, and this is, gets back to like implementing the small things is not about doing what you used to do before because very likely that's just straight up not possible. Just like it's straight up not possible to feel exactly like you used to feel at the beginning of your relationship. It's time to try new things that are going to feel different ways.

And also I'll mention that we have our course, MILFs, DILFs and rediscovering intimacy for Parents that has a lot of of super practical tips about how you can find the space and, you know, prioritize that reconnection in your relationship. And that leads us into step number four, which is to break the dry spell. So if you want to start having sex again, it's really important to know that it is going to be awkward the first time. And that is okay. We actually have a whole episode about dry spells. It's episode 48 and we talk in that episode about what we call the first first pancake rule, which is just that like, you know, when you're making pancakes, the first one just always turns out a little weird. It's the same with sex. Like when you're getting back in the saddle again, it's gonna feel strange and a little awkward and very new. So in that episode we really walk you through some other steps for making it feel more comfortable and just getting back into that saddle. But in particular we also want to call out like prioritizing having better sex so you don't get into that enjoyment desire trap again. So in the show notes we will l foreplay guides and our sex position playbook, which both are incredible for helping you have amazing sex. It's going to feel so good for both of you. Did I say amazing? Amazing? It's not just amazing, it's amazing.

Imagine how amazing it will be.

It'll be great sex. Okay, so we also turned over to our Instagram audience and we asked like what did you do to get out of the room mates phase? And there were a couple of really great ideas that we wanted to share with you. So one was time apart to miss each other, finding consistent childcare, flirting more. We actually have another podcast, episode 51 about the art of flirting in a long time relationship, prioritizing your own needs before Your relationship, that's a very important one.

Oh, yeah. Putting on that oxygen mask first before helping others. All right. Also doing activities focused on each other. Making an effort for romance and intimacy. Small things like making a commitment to hold hands, getting away on a vacation or a staycation, non negotiable date nights. And putting our pride aside to listen to each other and show each other respect. I think that's such a huge one. This is, this is such a topic where pride can come in so much. Because, look, look, nobody wants to be here. Nobody ever wants to be in this situation. So it's really easy. Like I was saying before, it's really easy to just find a bunch of external reasons to blame it on because then it's like, hey, it's not my fault. Like, yeah, I'm, I'm working double shifts. There's not enough time with the kids schedules. But like, there's always some choice that we can make not to get us back to where we were, but just something that we could do to have a little more time with our partner to set a couple boundaries at work so that we can get home on time or adjust the kids schedule a little bit so that you literally can put on that oxygen mask for yourself as well.

And of course, we're always going to put a plug in for couples therapy. Like in some situations. This truly is going to be the best course of action for moving forward.

Yeah. Especially if it feels difficult to be able to share your feelings about it or it's feeling like one partner is ready to take some responsibility for what's going on, but the other partner is not like that. This can just be the best way to really move through those feelings or just continue to check in about how things are going and navigating the, you know, the inherent ups and downs of getting back into the swing of things. All right, so let's do a couple listener questions first.

We have something fun to share with you. So if you are a fan of pillow talks, you're clearly down for aunt honest conversation that goes there. So that's why I'm really excited to share with you one of my favorite podcasts. Seriously, this is like top three for me. Has been for years. You might have seen me share it on Instagram a bunch of times. It is Liz Moody's Healthier Together. So Liz is a best selling author and longtime journalist who somehow manages to combine vetted science based wellness information with interesting chatty conversations that's actually really fun to listen to. She defines wellness as anything that helps you live your healthiest, happiest life. So we're talking topics like the secrets of longevity, how to make getting your finances under control fun and empowering. Not scary at all. That was one of my favorite episodes. Actually, it was her interview with Ramit, how to overcome imposter syndrome, Gut health hacks, hormone balancing tips. So much more. There's even an episode with yours truly. I was so excited to be a guest on her podcast where I shared real talk about how to not let body shame get in the way of being great sex. An excellent sex position that not enough people are trying, communication tips for the best time ever in the bedroom, and more. That episode went live last fall, so if you want to start there, just go back and find that episode. Otherwise, I recommend just starting with any topic that you're interested in. Or you can even start with the most recent episode. I think that she just recently had one with a dermatologist. Debunking skincare myths. Another one of my favorite topics. I promise you, Liz somehow manages to always share actionable tips that are going to change your life. Life today, it's never overwhelming or confusing or filled with pseudoscience like so many other wellness podcasts out there. Not to name names, but to start living your healthiest, happiest life today, just search for Healthier Together on your favorite podcast app and hit that follow button again. That's Healthier Together. I hope you love it as much as I do. I'm so excited to share it with you and let me know what you think of it after you've listened to a few episodes.

First one is how do you know you're starting to veer into this phase?

Oh, what a great question. So this is really individual. Like, it really depends on from couple to couple. There are going to be different signs and signals that you're starting to head into this direction. But I think this could be a really interesting thing for couples to identify, like, together, of what are the signs for us? And that way you start keeping an eye on them. Like trying to be proactive about, hey babe, we're starting to like, veer into that territory again. So. So again, it is individual. But I would say, like some common signs are the amount of time between sex starts to stretch on longer and longer your feelings about your partner. Like if you find yourself getting irritated at them more often or just feeling disconnected from them, maybe like you guys just aren't really having good conversations anymore. You're talking like your conversations are much more about logistics and schedules than anything like meaningful between the two of you.

Or that you are. Or finding yourself avoiding conversations. I think that's a huge one. Like, I really want to talk about this or that, or like, oh, this is bothering me, or it's feeling like we're not, you know, having that connection. I would really like to do this. And then because I've done this before, you're like, okay, let me. Let me keep processing that. Let me sit on that a little while. And then you kind of come up with a rationalization or justification for why you don't need to bring it up. I think that's a huge indicator of, like, when you go, nah, it's okay. Things are okay the way they are, right? Yeah, it's okay. It's okay.

It's cool. It's cool.

Yeah, that. That's a huge warning sign that you are just. Yeah. Like, you're not saying what you need, and your partner's probably not either. It's very likely they're thinking very similar things. And that's. That's when the slide starts to happen.

The slide. I also think, like, here's an interesting subtle one of, like, what is it feel like when your partner walks into the room?

Like, are you excited to see them?

Yeah. And not like, every single time your partner's gonna walk in the room, you're like, be doing jumping jacks or anything like that. But like. Yeah. Is there this sense of, like, ugh, God, you again kind of thing? Oof. You know? Yeah. I mean, that's how I always felt about roommates. Like, oh, God, here you are again.

Yeah. Like, can I just have my space?

Yeah. You know, what is a good one for you? And I specifically, I think when we stop laughing, when there's not much as much laughter, that's like a big signal for us that we're not in a great place.

True. Very true.

Yeah, I just thought of that right now, and I was like, ooh, that's a good one. So, yeah, once you identify a couple of things for yourself, it can be just a great thing to be on the lookout for. So you're kind of being proactive about it.

All right, another question. Seems like we go through this every year or two. How do we get out of that cycle?

Oh, that's another good question, too. I mean, I guess the first place that I want to go is normalizing that you are just gonna go in and out of this stage. It's not like you figure out how to get out of it once, and then for the rest of your relationship, you're never in it again.

Yeah, I mean, I feel like I do. I'm curious, you know, for the person asking this, if they were here, I would ask them, like, if you are going into it every year or two, like, are you going into it for a year or two? Or. Or is it like we kind of go into it for a couple of weeks and then we get out of it? Because I think if it's something that's happening quite frequently, I'm assuming you're also getting out of it quite frequently. And so it may be that you're just like, you're a little hyper vigilant about this, and it's not really that big of a deal because, look, the reality is, yeah, as much as Vanessa and I like to have a regular amount of sex, there are times that we don't. But we get out of it pretty quick, usually. But I think that it can be easy to go the other direction and be overly vigilant for signs of this and kind of blow it out of proportion a little bit. So that could be happening here.

Yeah. So I think a good piece of advice would be to make that list of the warning signs that you're starting to veer into that territory and get used to having conversations with each other as quickly as you can and going back to. And then again having your own list of specific activities that make you feel like partners again. So it's like, it's not a problem if you keep winding back in that territory. It's just learning to catch it sooner and sooner.

Yeah. So then, yeah, instead of having to have a conversation of, hey, it's feeling like we are falling into that roommates thing again. The conversation you're having is, hey, I miss our walks together, or hey, it's feeling like we haven't had as much time for each other as we usually do. What can we do to have a little more time together or to start doing this again? And I think that's kind of the way to really nip it in the bud, so to speak. Like, you identify the symptoms and so, like, instead of, like, treating the disease, you're just like, oh, huh, I have a. You know, I have. I'm noticing this one symptom. Let's just treat that one symptom rather than waiting for it to turn into the full blown. Say, illness. But that doesn't sound. That doesn't sound good.

The roommate's illness.

Yeah. All right, here's a good one. How to remove shame and finger pointing when bringing up or broaching the subject of the roommate face, because I think this is super, super common. It's so hard to bring this up without one partner feeling like. Like, they're just inherently at fault. I feel like it's probably the receiving partner. Like, the partner who's receiving the conversation is like, wait, you're putting this on me? Ooh.

Okay, so I actually want to go back and do an amendment to step one. Like, we had. You start by getting clear yourself on. On, like, specifics. But I think one question that I would add to that list is, what have I stopped doing?

Yeah. Like, what's my part in this?

What's my part in this? Because you taking ownership of your side of the street, that's the best way to prevent your partner from getting into a defensive place. Like, of course, if you go to your partner and you're like, we're in the roommate space. It's all your fault. You never take me on date nights. You never kiss me. You never look excited to see me. Like, of course your partner is going to get defensive. But if you go into that conversation taking some ownership of it, of, like, I know I have been working just bonkers hours and I have not made the space for you, or I know that I haven't done X, Y, Z. Like, that's just going to set your partner at ease and help them realize, like, look, we're on the same team together.

So, like, it sets the expectation that it is safe to take responsibility. Yeah. It is safe to acknowledge our parts in where we are at.

So you taking ownership of your part of it. And the second piece of this is that's why we were so focused on specificity. If you go to your partner and you're like, you never do anything romantic for me anymore again, of course they're.

Gonna get defensive or they just go, that's not true. I did this last week. So therefore, you're wrong and I'm right. Because it's not never. It's just barely ever.

So the key here is giving your partner something specific to do, like making a specific request to them. I would love it if you did this. Or even better, like, I would love it if we did this. So you're making it feel like a team.

All right, last question. How do you get daily affection back without it feeling like it's a task to check off?

Ooh, such good questions with this episode. So I actually don't think it's a problem for it to feel like a task to check off at first. Like, when you're Easing your way back into more romantic mode. Like, it's gonna feel awkward. It's like the first pan cake rule that we mentioned. Like, first time getting back in the saddle is gonna be awkward. Prepare yourself for it. Expect that.

Yeah. I mean, I guess it is a. It is a task if you're not naturally doing it.

Yeah. I mean, it's. It's exactly the same with any sort of physical affection is it's gonna. If you haven't been kissing your partner, slipping them the tongue, like, it's gonna feel awkward when you do it. And so just giving yourself that space and, like, taking the performance pressure off of it of, like, hey, it's okay if it's awkward or it's okay if I need this set calendar reminders to remind myself to give my partner a hug. Like, you're just not in the habit of it and you need to give yourself some support and structure to create that habit. So I don't think there's any sort of problem with it feeling like. Yeah, like, kind of structured at first.

Yeah. What I will say, though, is that if you are finding yourself continuing to feel that way or feeling like, oh, well, like this, this task is falling to me and me alone, and like, now I'm responsible for this. I do think that can be indicative of perhaps the tasks or responsibilities or mental load in your relationship not feeling balanced. And I don't mean even. But what I do mean is that if to you it's feeling, oh, this is just another task for me to check off, that's probably indicative that you have too many tasks to check off. I think if you and your partner each had a shit ton of tasks, Tasks to check off, then it wouldn't be so much like, oh, God, this is just one more task. Like, it's more like, I have so many tasks to check off and they don't. So for me, it's just another task. And that sucks. So I think that's indicative of, like, a bigger conversation that needs to be had about balancing that load a bit more so that you're sharing in those tasks.

Yeah. And we actually have a workbook for that, our mental load workbook. So we're going to link a bunch of stuff. Stuff for you in the show notes. We'll do that Mental load workbook. We have our Mil Stilson Pills guide for parents, the Sex position playbook, and the foreplay guide. So.

Wow.

That will all be in the show notes for you to help you get out of the roommates phase and back into the partners. In love phase, man.

We have to, like. We have to make a like, like super mega magnum get out of the roommates phase pack.

The ultra platinum super deluxe lifetime membership to getting out of the roommate space.

Yeah. Hell yeah.

That was the perfect review for this episode.

Seriously, man. Wow. Full circle.

I know. I feel so proud of us.

I know. That's incredible. Well, maybe by the time you hear this, we will or won't have that pack of things. Probably not. But who knows? It's not out of the realm of possibility.

I really want to do it. Who wouldn't want to buy an ultra platinum suit? Super deluxe lifetime membership.

True. Lifetime membership out of the roommate's phase.

Sure.

Great. All right, well, that's it for today's episode of Pillow Talks. Thank you so much for listening. Join us again next week when we talk about sex and shame.

Sam.