EPISODE 70: How To Keep Stress Low And Pleasure High When You’re Trying To Conceive

There's going to be time where sex feels like work. It's going to start to feel a little bit routine. And at the same time, I think that it's still possible and important to focus on pleasure, joy, and fun. Hello and welcome to the Pillow Talks podcast. We're your hosts, Vanessa and Zander Marin. I'm a sex Therapist with over 20.

Years of experience, and I'm just a regular dude. We share the ups and downs in our relationships while giving you step by step techniques for improving yours.

Make sure you subscribe for your weekly double date full of totally doable sex tips, practical relationship advice, hilarious and honest stories of what really goes on behind closed bedroom doors, and so much more. It's the sex education you wish you'd had. So today's podcast is a topic that we have been getting a lot of requests for.

Oh yes.

For a very long time.

Oh, yes.

And it is all about how to keep your sex life alive when you are trying to conceive. So 67% of our audience said that trying to conceive was harder than they thought that it would be. And a lot of people said by a long shot. And of those who have struggled with infertility, 76% said that it negatively impacted their sex life.

Yeah. So this is pretty serious.

Yeah, it's something that affects a lot of people. I think this can stir up so many challenges, like the whole trying to conceive journey. There's the sadness of it not happening right away. There's the fear, the worrying that something is wrong with you because it's not happening right away. The stress of wondering every month like, is this going to be the time? Is this going to be the month? And the sadness every month that comes along that it's not the month. There's the financial burden of pursuing treatment, which can be overwhelming at times. There's the potential grief of losing pregnancies and the disconnection that it can create between you and your partner. So infertility can wreak havoc on just about every aspect of your life. But of course, what we're going to focus on today is the havoc that it can wreak on your sex life. But first, we want to thank our sponsor, Birch. Birch mattresses are stylish, comfortable, and most importantly, environmentally conscious. These non toxic mattresses are made right here in America and are crafted with natural and organic materials that have been sustainably sourced. Birch is giving 400 off all mattresses and two free Eco Rest pillows@birchliving.com.

So.

We have a reader story that we wanted to share. That, I think illustrates this really well.

It took us 10 months to conceive our first son. This time around, we've been trying for over a year and a half, and I've now had to move on to working with a doctor after having one miscarriage last year. When you want to have a baby so badly, there's so much pressure. When it doesn't come quickly, it feels like even more pressure. Because if you don't have sex when you're ovulating, you miss an entire month. Then there are plenty of months when you're not in the mood, but you have to have sex anyways. When it's so scheduled for so long, it can really suck the joy out of it. In addition, as a woman, there's a feeling like my body is not working properly, even though rationally I know that's not the case. Instead of sex being for pleasure, it is a means to an end. And when it's hard to get pregnant, it feels like a failure.

Yeah. I think that one story encapsulates so many of the different dynamics that we've heard people talk about. Somebody else told us, you know, more simply and to the point, like, my sex life feels damaged beyond repair. So in this episode, we are going to give you five tips for less stress and more pleasure as you try to conceive. And don't worry, we are not going to be telling you to just relax and let it happen, because we already know that advice is not helping anyone.

All right, so before we get into all of that great advice, it's time for review of the week. Love that there are both points of view. It got cut off.

Both points.

Oh, both points. Oh, orgasm. Great. I love it already. Not only do they cover purely sex stuff, but often relationship stuff that doesn't seem connected on the surface. Mental load episode is the best thing ever. I love that Xander shares his viewpoint and is so ready to be authentic and vulnerable with us. And Vanessa is willing to share what happened in their relationship that didn't work. Super thankful to have found them. Oh, yeah. Cool. Yeah, Xander is cool and authentic and Vanessa is the bad guy here. She. She gives all the dirt. No, I. I think I talk. I talk a little bit about what doesn't work, too.

Yes, you do.

All right. Oh, this person also wanted to make sure we knew. Sorry I couldn't hit you with emojis, Xander. I really wanted to. Wait, wait. Why couldn't you? I don't understand.

But they did leave. Xd XD I don't know what that's supposed to be. Well, thank you for this delightful review and this little bit of a mystery at the end here. It's very entertaining. Reviews really do go such a far way in helping the podcast grow and reach new people. So we really appreciate you taking the time to leave one. If you've never left a review before, what you do is you go to the main page of our podcast in Apple Podcasts. Scroll to the bottom and you'll see it there. You can leave a five star rating. You can just write a sentence or two. But really it helps. People, like when they're coming across the podcast and they say, see, oh, this has a lot of reviews. People are saying great things. It makes people want to stop and listen to it more than a podcast with no reviews or bad reviews. Yeah, please don't leave us bad reviews. You can also leave us a star rating on Spotify as well. That really helps. And we do this weekly giveaway to thank you for taking the time to write a review. So if you're picked as the review of the week, you can come over to us on Instagram anessamarintherapy, send us a question, and we will send you back a personalized coaching session with our best advice and tips straight to your inbox. All right, so let's get into it. We want to start this off by giving a little caveat. I think, you know, you and I are really respectful of the fact that everybody's different. Like, we really try to avoid saying, saying everybody likes this or never do that. And I think this is an area where it's particularly important to call attention to the fact that everybody's journey of trying to conceive is going to be wildly different. There's so many different things that can come up, so many different kinds of couples that this can come up for. So we may be giving certain tips in this episode that don't apply to your situation, that might not work for your situation. We just want to acknowledge that right off the bat. Our hope here is that you find, like, at least one little tidbit that's useful for you and that you don't feel alone anymore in going through what you're going through. But we just want to, yeah, call that attention to the fact that, like, everybody is different here and we have a lot of respect for that. So if you've listened to our podcast for a while, particularly episode 37, you may know that Xander and I don't want to have kids. We've made that decision that we Also.

We don't currently have kids, just to be super clear.

Yeah, we don't currently have them. We're not planning on having them in the future. But I've been going back and forth about whether or not to share, like, another personal piece of our story, and I guess I'm leaning towards sharing it right now.

It's happening. It's happening.

Even though it feels a little vulnerable. You know, infertility is not something that we have ever actually dealt with because we haven't actually tried to get pregnant. But I did have a really traumatic experience pretty early in my life that I just want to share a little bit about. So I was 20 years old at the time. I was in college, but I was doing an internship in LA working with a doctor that at the time, I really respected. She was. I'm not going to name names, but she was a kind of a pioneer in women's sexual health. I realized in the course of this internship that there were a lot of things that I didn't like about the work that she was doing, and she got really inappropriate in the course of the internship. Actually, I had mentioned that I had had a lot of struggles with having an irregular period, and I didn't know what was going on. Like, I'd seen doctors and no one had figured out, like, you know, what was up with me. And so she told me in. In the moment, like, oh, just get up on the exam table. I'll check you out. Which is. Wow, that's kind of wildly inappropriate.

Yeah. Kind of quick, like, oh, like, not even like, oh, can. Can I. Would you be open to me giving you an exam or, like, think about it for a day and then come back to me?

So, you know, I was, like, 20 years old, and this was somebody who was my superior, my boss, somebody that I had had a lot of respect for at the time.

So it's gotta be a hard thing to say no to in the moment. Like, you're not even thinking that. You're like, oh, I'm just doing my job. And now my boss is asking me.

To get up on exam.

Yeah. To give me an exam.

Yeah. So. So I did. She gave me an exam. She examined me with an ultrasound, which is something that they insert into your vagina. So it was a very, you know, invasive, intense experience.

As a former HR professional, there are a lot of problems.

A lot of problems. I know. And so, you know, she's showing me the ultrasound and she tells me. The very first thing that she says to me is, oh, well, you're never going to be able to have kids. I'm 20 years old again, not planning on having kids in that moment, but had always, you know, I share in episode 37, that I'd always thought that I was going to. And so I'm just, you know, I'm already in shock that this whole experience is happening. And even in more shock just hearing that, I'm like, what? Like, what are you talking about? And she says, well, you know, your ovaries are just covered in cysts. That's why you're not getting your period and you're just never gonna be able to have kids. Hope you didn't want any. And that was it. Like, she pulled the ultrasound out. She, like, left the room. There was no, how are you? Do you want to talk to anybody about this? Do you want any more information? It was so intense and abrupt and traumatizing for so many different reasons. And so that was something that I thought about myself for a very long time. And eventually I ended up seeing other doctors. We actually got to the root of what was going on. Turns out I have a thyroid condition. And with medication, I got my period back. Like, everything's fine.

And.

And I've had numerous doctors check me out since then and tell me, like, I don't know what the fuck that woman was on. Like, you, there's no reason that you wouldn't be able to have kids. And of course, nobody can know until you actually start trying. So, of course, I'm not 100% positive, but I've heard from enough medical practitioners that, like, they don't think that there's any particular reason why this would be harder for me than the average person. So, again, like we said, to start off with, everybody's story is unique and different, but just having had that experience of being told at age 20, you're never going to have children. Like, it's hard to even talk about it and talk about all the different feelings that. That stirs up, you know, again, being so young and, like, not having any plans to at that time, but thinking like. But I really want to really feeling unfeminine of, like, isn't this such a, you know, natural, primal thing of what we women are supposed to be able to do? Fear of, you know, I'm not with anybody right now, but what if I, you know, I'm with a partner in the future and then I have to tell him, like, I'm never going to be able to do this for you? Yeah. Disappointment and, like, confusion and disconnection from My own body, like just, that's just barely scratching the surface. I mean, there was just so much that came up. So I don't want to say that I know anybody else's experience, but I do know that feeling of what it's like to be told you're never going to be able to have children. And it's awful and I wouldn't wish it on anybody. I think the reason that I hesitated to share that in episode 37 is that I worry, you know, it was already still wildly vulnerable episode and I worried about people saying like, oh, well, that's the reason that you don't want to have kids because you feel like you can't have them. And that people would think like it was some self protective mechanism of like, oh, well, if you just tell yourself that you don't want them, then that might spare you the pain of having to like, get down the road and realizing that maybe you actually can't have them. Maybe that stupid, awful, terrible doctor was right and that really and truly is not the case. Like again, I've, I've heard from enough doctors and it's been enough time that I do feel like, you know, again, I don't know, but I do feel like there's a totally likely possibility that I could get pregnant and be fine. We have the financial resources to do infertility treatments, which is a huge privilege. Not a lot of couples have that. And also adoption, it was always an, an option that you and I talked about or totally open to. It was, we've never seen it as like a lesser than kind of thing. So it really and truly is not a, like a reason why we don't want to have kids. So please don't DM me saying that.

Yeah, please, please don't. Please don't. I'll come after you. I'll come after you if you do.

Yeah, we actually just got a DM the other day of somebody who said, I listened to that episode and I'm not convinced that you don't want to have kids. And I just ignored it. But like, I started typing out a response and I'm like, that was the most personal thing I've ever shared to such a large audience. And like, it's not my job to convince you whether or not we're trying to, like, I'm sharing my truth with you. So I'm here I am again sharing another piece of truth that is really vulnerable and scary and hard to share. So I just, I don't need to, you know, get any sort of Feedback from anybody, if it helps you to hear my story, and that's great, and I would love to hear that. But, yeah, I don't need to hear any sort of like, oh, well, that's why you don't want them.

Well, can I say that I'm really thankful that you shared that again, and maybe this is foreshadowing a bit for the rest of the episode, but I know when you shared that with me very early on in our relationship, because I think when you did share that with me, it was before you had gotten all of that additional medical advice, that it really is not a problem at all. And I do believe that you shared it with me in the context of, you know, this one thing has happened to me, and this might be the situation, and I don't think I was. I was not in an emotionally mature enough place to really hear that and respond in the way that I would. Now I believe I kind of jumped into problem solving mode or just trying to tell you that things would be okay, like, oh, well, my sister's adopted. And so, of course, like, I feel great about adoption. And that just must have been so hard. I wish I had just been able to lean into the emotional aspect of it and listen and just talk about what that was like, because, I mean, hearing that again now, it's just like, wow, holy shit, that sounds so traumatic. So horrifying. You know, combined with the fact that it was already a problematic internship that you had, like, all these things coming together, just, wow.

Yeah. Yeah, it was a pretty gnarly thing. And so, yeah, but we did, you know, you and I did still have a lot of conversations about, like, we wanted to have kids, and we weren't worried about making the specific plan for them at the time because we were so young when we met. It was only a couple of years after that. But, yeah, I mean, I guess part of me just wanted to share that. It kind of feeds right into our tip number one is just to know that you're not alone. One in eight couples struggles with infertility. And I think that's just such a shocking statistic that so few people know. Like, this is not just a, you know, one in a thousand kind of thing. Like, one in eight couples is going to struggle with infertility. So, again, like, my story is unique. It's different. It very well may not be your story, but I think the more that we can just share stories like this, the more it helps us realize that we're not alone. And I think in particular, this can be so challenging, because the dialogue around getting pregnant, we really focus on, like, oh, it's so joyous. It's so exciting. It's so magical. Oh, it's gonna be really sexy, all the sex that you're gonna have, you know? And so it could just be this huge shock for couples when it doesn't happen right away or when it doesn't feel fun and so exciting and easy and natural.

Yeah. I mean, I think that there's actually an interesting comparison here to draw with. With purity culture, or at least just with this idea of, like, oh, like, sex before marriage is bad. And then all of a sudden you get married, and then, like, sex is on the table, and this is. And it's this wonderful, beautiful, awesome thing, and it's like, we can't. We struggle to flip that switch in our minds. Like, you can't just go from, like, living your whole life thinking a certain thing, and then one, you know, 24 hours later, it's like, oh, cool. Sex is great. And I think it's the same with, you know, getting pregnant in many ways. Like, so many of us for so long are like, don't get pregnant. Don't get pregnant. Like, use protection. Use birth control. Use protection. Do you have a condom? Like, I can't get pregnant. I can't get pregnant. And then even when you want to, there's this idea of mind. Yeah. Like, that's. Yeah, that's crazy.

Yeah, I think that's a really good point just in and of itself. Like, most of us spend years, if not decades, trying not to get pregnant, and even that little mental switch. And now I'm trying to. Even if you don't wind up having any problems with it, like, it can still be such a mind fog. So I think it's important for us to talk about infertility more often, to share these stories and. And honestly, like, I think that all couples who are trying to get pregnant should go into conception anticipating some sort of challenge with it. And I don't mean that in a, like, negative Nancy kind of way. Like, it's gonna be terrible. Buckle up. This is gonna be awful. But I just think the conversation is so focused on, like, it's magical, and it's so beautiful, and you're gonna have so much sex, and it's gonna be so hot. You know, it's like, let's lower the expectations a little bit. Let's talk about this more openly, and let's just help couples realize, like. Like, it is pretty likely that you're. That this journey is just not going to look the way you think it will in at least one way or another.

Yeah. I mean, look at it this way. Like, it's way better to be pleasantly surprised by how well something goes than to have really high expectations and then be let down when you can't meet those expectations.

Yeah.

And also, I just think it's really unhelpful, the talking about it as, like, oh, it's just this joyous, magical thing. I think there's this interesting dynamic that comes up with. With challenging situations. Like, you hear about this a lot in marriage. You hear about it a lot when it comes to trying to conceive of, like, you know, I think that there's this natural human thing of, like, when we go through something hard, we don't really want to talk about it. We don't really want to admit that it was hard. And then when we are sharing with others, we. We sugarcoat it. We go, oh, yeah, it was. It's so wonderful. Because you feel like, well, that's what the expectation is. Everyone's expectation is that you say, oh, yeah, no, marriage is great. Oh, we have our struggles, but it's amazing. Or like, yeah, getting pregnant was the best thing ever. We had so much sex, and it was awesome. And you just gloss over any of the challenges because you don't want to admit that it was challenging for you. You don't feel comfortable sharing about the challenges or even the harm that it may have done to your relationship. And so it just perpetuates and perpetuates this idea that, oh, yeah, it's great. It's going so well for everybody else. And so if any goes wrong for you, it's an anomaly, and you better shut up and not talk about it.

Okay, so step number two is to be teammates. There's actually a little bit of overlap in what you're talking about right now with what our first tip is under this category.

I'm just trying to tee you up, baby.

I know you've got to tee up to tee off. Did we ever figure out if it was tee up? Somebody told us what the correct terminology is. I can't remember what that episode was, but. And I can't remember what the correct answer is. So T up and T off. All right.

Oh, yeah. I say they're good.

So you and your partner need to talk about what's going on. I think just like Xander was saying, so many of us don't want to even acknowledge that it's an issue. Like, that even happens within the relationship. But it's so important for you to be able to talk openly with each other and feel like you're on the same team. So acknowledge, like, what it is that you're going through. Acknowledge that it's a bummer or frustrating. It. It's sad, it's heartbreaking, whatever it is. Like, in particular, one dynamic that I think comes up is, like, it's something that you can't control. I think if we can talk a little bit stereotypically about gender roles and men, like, a lot of men are fix it type of people, they want to be able to come up with the solution. And this is something that is out of your control in a lot of ways. Plus, you're each going to be going through your own journeys while dealing with infertility in addition to your journey as a couple. So. So one of the other tricky pieces of all of this is that if you're seeing doctors for this, they're often trying to figure out what the cause is for your challenges with trying to conceive. And it can often feel like it's being pinned on one partner. Like, you're the one who has the low sperm count or your eggs aren't good. So that's just yet another way that it can make you guys feel like you're not on the same team.

Yeah, I think this is just another reason why it's so important to be able to acknowledge these types of things up front. It's not going to be a uniform or consistent experience for both of us throughout the process. Like, we each get to have our own struggles, our own challenges, our own feelings about it, but we have to be able to share with each other about what those are as we're going through it. And I think that's where that sort of like, societal message of like, oh, yeah, it's just the best time ever. Get really. It's like a double whammy because you're like, okay, well, I'm not having the best time ever. I feel like my partner is expecting me to have the best time ever. And for sure, everybody else in my life, life is expecting me to have the best time ever. So I'd better just shut up. I'd better bottle those feelings up. I'd better suppress them. And when you do that, of course, what happens is they leak out in other emotions. They come out in terms of resentment. You probably start resenting all the people that are telling you how wonderful it is. You probably start resenting your partner, like, oh, well, how come they're not having Any problem with this? How come they're not struggling like I am? And like. So, yeah, instead of that, just the simple fact of acknowledging, hey, we're gonna have a different experience and let's check in regularly about what that experience is and let's allow each other to share tough stuff just because we share that, hey, right now, in this moment, I'm feeling challenged. That doesn't mean that, like, we can't get pregnant. It doesn't mean that we can't keep trying. Like, you just need to be able to talk at the beginning and talk throughout.

Yeah. So whether that might be. Maybe you guys have a daily check in, a weekly check in, maybe you start doing therapy at this time, but like, some sort of structure for you guys to check in and talk regularly about what's going on. Another point within this category that we want to make is to share the mental load. I think it's really important for us to recognize that often, like the research, the appointment making, the tracking, scheduling lands on the birthing partner's shoulders. Right. And so we asked our Instagram audience who carried the majority of the mental load while trying to conceive, and 92% said the birthing partner did.

Wow.

I think the other options were the non birthing partner and, like, we shared it evenly. And I've never seen this before, but the non birthing partner got 0%. So 0% was the non birthing partner taking on the majority of the mental load.

Yeah. I mean, I guess in reality it might not be possible for the person who is not the birthing partner to be doing the vast majority of it, because at the end of the day, it's not their body. But I would really hope that there would be more people in the category of, like, we shared it in a, you know, a more equitable type of arrangement or something.

Yeah. I mean, even though, like, we shared it pretty equally, it was very, very low. I mean, 92% said it was just the birthing partner. So I think it's so important for couples to figure out a game plan, like, write out what is all the mental load, what are all the responsibilities, and figure out a way of sharing it that feels balanced lens to you both.

Yeah. Now, just to get super heteronormative for a second, I do want to call out to all the guys out there listening, like, hey, I understand how uncomfortable that might feel. You might be feeling like, well, one, it's not my body. Two, the body that it is is a different sex for me, so I'm totally unfamiliar with the parts. I'm unfamiliar with how it works. And as a guy, I'm kind of likely to have this like, fix it mentality. Unlikely to like, want to do stuff that I know I'm good at. And the idea of doing something that feels like I'm not an expert in it and like, maybe you can't even be an expert in it because like, you don't have those body parts and that might just feel like, oh my God. It feels way too uncomfortable to really take on any of this stuff. But I just want to encourage you. Just lean in. Like your partner doesn't really know either. Like if, especially if they're going through it for the first time, just lean into it, start making appointments, start doing some research. And like, yeah, it's gonna feel uncomfortable at first as you start learning new things, but like, you're gonna become an expert in no time. Like after you, you just gotta start doing a couple things. And each successive thing you do, you'll feel more capable, you'll feel more in control of the situation and, and your partner is gonna be so thankful for you jumping in.

Yeah. I mean, that's why it's important for couples to make a plan together. What's going to feel good and work for them. Obviously there are certain logistical things that like one partner can't do. That's totally understandable. But if you have everything out there and you're like, yeah, we've made the agreement to split it up this way, that really makes you feel like a team. Our final tip within this category. This is a lot of stuff under number two, but this is an important one, is to share with each other the best ways to support each other during this time. So I already mentioned, you know, a lot of men go into problem solving or fixing mode. You know, we've heard people tell us like, oh yeah, my partner was always saying things like, let's just relax and have fun with it. You know, and that can be really unhelpful to hear as a woman. So if you don't want your partner going into problem solving mode or giving you pep talks, like, let them know. And you can even try to set each other up for success in individual conversations. Like, like, you could go to your partner and say, hey, I just need you to listen right now. I just want to vent about this thing. I don't want to problem solve it. I don't want you to cheer me up. Just listen. That can be really helpful.

Pro tip to everyone out there who identifies as like a problem solver when it comes to emotional problems, the way that you solve them. I'm putting solve in air quotes right here. The way you solve emotional problems, it's by listening and asking questions. So if you are like, hey, I want to be able to solve problems like, look, here's the answer. The way that you solve like emotional problems, emotional struggles, just listen to your partner, ask them questions about what it's like for them and yeah, just, just do that. Sorry, I ran out of steam.

Just do that.

Just do that. No, I mean give that advice. Give, give, give that a try and you'll be an emotional problem solver in no time.

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Yeah, it's super comfortable. It is firm, but not too firm. Every time I get in bed I'm just like, ah, yes.

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So if you want to give it a shot, Birch is giving $400 off all mattresses and two free Eco Rest pillows at birchliving.com pillow. Again, that's $400 off. They throw in the two free Eco Rest pillows, too. Sleep better with birch@birchliving.com Pillow all right, let's go into tip number three, which is to be gentle on yourselves. So in this tip, we're going to be talking about some CIS male, female stuff here. Again, we want to acknowledge there are lots of different ways to make a baby, lots of different configurations of couples that have babies. But we just want to talk specifically about having intercourse in order to try to create a baby. Some specific dynamics that can come up around there. So we got to be real here. Like, there definitely are going to be times when sex feels like work and it feels like a chore when you're trying to conceive. But we really want to encourage you to be gracious with yourselves and with each other. So one thing to be gentle about is performance issues. So a lot of men experience performance issues, often for the very first time while trying to conceive. I saw so many couples in my practice who were going through this. This. It can be really stressful for a guy. Like, sex is on a schedule. He has to perform, which is. I mean, it's kind of interesting. It's like he has to get hard. He has to orgasm and ejaculate. Like, it's a pretty big imbalance there. He might be having some of those fears and concerns that we talked about earlier about, like, is this my fault? Is something wrong with my sperm? You know, is it this my responsibility? So I have again, worked out with so many men who really struggle with trying to conceive because the pressure that they felt was just overwhelming.

I think there's another element of this too, where I think we hear a lot of women ask, like, oh, my partner is struggling when we're trying to conceive. Does that mean that he secretly doesn't want to have a baby? Or he's not ready? And I mean, that's. That's a harmful dynamic as well, because it. That turns it into a very black and white right thing. Like, he can't come, he can't get hard. Oh, he must not want this baby. And I think the reality is that, yeah, a lot of men may struggle while trying to conceive because they're still processing some emotions when it comes to, like, what is it going to be like to be a father? Like, how is our relationship going to change? How is our life going to change? And I think what very often happens is men, you know, stereotypically don't do a great job processing their emotions, talking about these type of emotions. They hold them inside and so if you are holding those types of things inside while you're trying to conceive, like, yeah, they are for sure going to rear their head. And very often they're going to rear their head in terms of your performance in bed. So it's. It's not a cut or dry thing. It's like, yeah, he may be struggling with that. It's not that he doesn't want to. It's just that he hasn't had an outlet.

And that's why we go back to number two, is like being a teammate and talking about it. But I've also worked with tons of men who were. Were super gung ho and excited about becoming a father and still having performance issues. And I think, like, because what I just said earlier, like, the woman doesn't necessarily have to be into it. She doesn't have to be feeling pleasure. She doesn't have to have an orgasm in order to conceive. Like, a lot of men feel this pressure of, like, she's so not into it. She's disconnected. She's going through her own stuff in her own head. Like, we just have to do it. And. And a lot of guys don't like having sex in that circumstance.

No, it's not. It's not fun.

It makes you feel like a little bit of a circus monkey. Like, come on, you have to orgasm. It has to be today. It has to be right now.

And if you can't. I think another dynamic that very often comes up is, like, women think, oh, well, guys just always want it. So, like, what's wrong? This isn't that hard for you? Like, just get hard and come. And that's so, like, so hurtful. Like, as a guy, like, when you kind of get reduced to. To this stereotype of, oh, you're just supposed to want it all the time, it's like, God, I can't even do this simple thing that everyone thinks. Like, guys just want it all the time. And I don't even. I don't even want it. What's wrong with me?

Yeah, so you have to make it okay for him to be struggling to have performance issues. This is another thing that we have to talk about more openly so that couples go into this knowing that that's very common and maybe even something to expect a little bit. It so kind of going off of that. Another point that we want to make here in tip number three is to not force yourselves to have sex. So we asked our Instagram audience, you know, if you were struggling with infertility at Any point did you force yourself to have sex just because of ovulation timing? And 91% of people said yes. So we want to acknowledge, like, of course, trying to conceive and especially if you're dealing with infertility, there are a lot of issues. It's been a long time. Like, of course there's a whole schedule element of this of, like, ideal times. You want to go for the ideal. You want to try to maximize your chances. Like, we are not here to tell you, like, just have fun and, like, just do it when you feel like it. We get it. There is a schedule. And at the same time, we still do think it's really important to, like, like, give yourselves a little bit of spaciousness within that, like, you are not machines, you're not robots. There are going to be times where even if everything is right, like, this is the time you guys really should be doing it. Like, there are going to be times where you don't want to. And it can actually be more damaging to push yourselves to force yourselves to have sex in those kinds of circumstances. So we think it can be really valuable for couples to give each other veto power where you allow each other to say, like, look, I know that this is a really important day, that this is the time this month, this is our shot, this is our opportunity. But, like, I just can't today. So again, we want to acknowledge, like, I can't imagine how hard it must be to be in that moment of, like, this is the day, this is our shot for this month. But I am just not feeling it and, like, what an awful decision that must be and how you must feel your heart and your head and everything just pulled in so many different directions. But it is really important to acknowledge that, like, forcing yourselves to have sex can be very damaging. So we wanted to read this story from one woman who wrote in. She said, I already had a history of past abusive relationships and sexual abuse. And then one of my fertility doctors made me feel like I had to have sex every single time I was ovulating. I hated getting the call that my lab showed I should have sexual, but I wanted a baby so badly, so I should be willing to do anything, right? I now have been diagnosed with PTSD from infertility treatments. I went from someone who enjoyed sex, even though it wasn't always with the best partners, to having zero interest in sex, being touched, kissed, hugged, etc. I've been too frightened to ask you guys if this was something others experienced. I'm working intensely with a therapist to process everything. But forcing myself or feeling forced to have sex by medical professionals has changed my life.

I can assure you that you are absolutely not alone in this. I know that this is something that many, many people struggle with. So look, at the end of the day, I know it feels like, hey, we gotta do this. Feels like if, you know, we're struggling already, if we want to get pregnant, this is what we have to do. I would try to think of it going easy on yourself as like a long term investment in your relationship and in your sex life and in your.

Sense of personal, you know, like your mental health.

Like, yeah, of course, if you disregard our advice here and you just say, hey, we gotta have sex every single time we're ovulating, like, yeah, you're maximizing that short term gain of like getting pregnant. But you have the potential to be sacrificing so many other things down the road, like your own well being for the rest of your life, for the rest of your relationship. So, yeah, try to take a long term view of, like, is it worth getting pregnant right now if, you know, it causes all kinds of mental and emotional and relational problems for us?

And again, like, let's just acknowledge, like, I'm sure there are so many people who are so desperate to get pregnant that it does feel like, yes, I will risk everything, I will sacrifice everything just to get pregnant. And I can empathize with that. That desperation, that longing that's just so intense. And like, if there's just any way for you to think bigger picture and to like, open up some of that space and some of that kindness for yourself, like, I just think that it's going to be so beneficial to be able to do that. Let's move into tip number four, which is to focus on pleasure and fun. So like we said with number three, like, yes, there's going to be time. Sex feels like work. It's gonna start to feel a little bit routine. And at the same time, I think that it's still possible and important to focus on pleasure, joy and fun. So we have talked about this a bit before and like, some people have kind of fought us on this idea on Instagram. You know, even when we put up polls for this episode, we got DMs from people saying, like, it's just not realistic to like, think about keeping your sex life spicy while you're trying to conceive. Like, trying to conceive is so big, it can be so overwhelming. There's no space for anything else. Like, no space for keeping it Spicy.

Yeah. I feel like this is just a prime example of very extreme, like, polarized or black and white. Thinking of, like, you know, you hear us giving the advice of focus on pleasure and joy and, like, try to keep it spicy. And you hear that and you go, oh, okay. So they're telling me I have to. To try all these different positions. I have to. Every single time it's going to be different. We got to do all this kinky.

Stuff and it's like threesome for the first time.

Yeah. I would not recommend having a threesome while you're trying to conceive, you know, assuming you want the. I guess it depends on the configuration, perhaps, but. Okay. You know, reigning that back in there.

That wild card at you.

Yeah, you did.

I got you a little flustered right there. Yeah, you did.

I kind of forgot where I was, but. Wow. Yeah. I mean. But yeah, we're not saying, you know, you have to be super kinky. You have to, you know, never do the same thing. It's always something new. Like, there is, you know, a whole spectrum of ways to keep it spicy. We are not telling you to go from one extreme to the other. We're telling you to just move a tiny bit in one direction.

Yeah, I mean, exactly like what you're saying. Like, this may not be the time where you have the most adventurous sex of your life and you're trying all these brand new things and it's totally wild and fun. Like, yeah, there's gonna be where it feels boring and it's mundane and it's kind of routine.

And honestly, keeping it spicy can be like 9 out of 10 times you do the exact same thing, and 1 out of 10 times you do something a little different. Like, that is spicy.

Yeah. Yeah. Oh, I thought you were saying the nine out of ten times are spicy. And I'm like, oh, that's a pretty high bar to set.

Oh, you can do it that way too, if you want.

Okay. But again, it's like, it's kind of examining the alternative here. And this is similar to the step that we just talked about. But, like, you know, let's look at the alternative of you're forcing yourself to have terrible, boring, routine sex. Like, just like we said a few minutes ago, like, that can be traumatizing. That can leave lasting scars. So focusing on keeping things as fun as they possibly can while respecting that this is a challenging season. It's not the, you know, not going to be the easiest season. Like, that can just save a lot of heartache. So, like, Xander saying, it's not a black or white either. Or it's like, can you let a little bit of spice in?

Let a little spice in. That sounds like a song.

It does. Do you want to sing it?

Let a little spice in.

Let a little spice in.

Well, I kind of surprised myself at the beginning. That was pretty good. But. Yeah, that's all. That's all you got for now.

That's all. You don't have any other lyrics?

Yeah. You know, I'm going to have to work on. Work on the. This one over the next couple weeks. Maybe we'll circle back to it a lot.

A Little Spice or Not by Xander and Vanessa Marin. Yeah, just let a little spice in.

Just a baby spice. A little slice of jalapeno.

It's like a little slice of your peach pie.

Yeah.

Little weird tangent here.

Did we even ever say that on a podcast? I think we've only. This is only like an internal team inside joke.

It is. Should we not spoil it then?

I mean, I'm not even sure if I can replicate.

It's not even that funny. We should have talked about it in the butt stuff.

It's not funny. Sorry, guys. You just got a really bad joke from us.

No, we were just doing a butt stuff planning meeting and we were talking about different, like butt puns that we could do to like make it cheeky. And Xander busted out this weird Southern accent and was like, got you a little slice of my pooch pie.

Yeah, break off a slice.

And we just all thought it was very funny. Anyways, wow. How do we get to the slice of peach pie? Oh, let's. Okay, so let's back up. Let's talk about letting in a little bit of spice.

Or peach.

Or peach. Peachy spice. Sure. Do some. Do some butt stuff. You're trying to conceive journey. That could spice it up for sure. Okay, so ways to focus on pleasure and fun. Foreplay is a great way, I think, especially male female couples that are trying to get pregnant through intercourse. Of course there becomes a large focus on intercourse, but that is not the only way to connect with each other. Nor is it the most pleasurable activity for the vast majority of women. So we do have our best selling foreplay guides that help you learn how to give your partner maximum pleasure with your hands and your mouth. This is a great thing to explore with each other, like bringing more pleasure, learning some new tricks with each other, making sure that the sex you're having isn't just this routine like PNV trying to get it over with as quickly as possible. Like, let's bring more pleasure into it, of course, doing new things, you know, and even if they're small changes or Even if it's one every 10 times that you're trying something a little bit different, and we're talking small things, like maybe. Maybe it's putting a pillow underneath you to change a sex position a little bit. Maybe it's having sex at a slightly different time of day than you usually do on the other side of the bed than you usually do. Like, just little changes can help bring some excitement and aliveness back into it. So we will link a few things for you in the show notes. We have our sex position playbook that has 42 different positions that can be a lot of fun. You could also try out some dirty talk we can link to our Dirty talk guide.

I just want to say. I just want to say that is a really excellent suggestion and the dirty talk, because to the people who are like, oh, no, you can't spice it up. It's gotta be this very certain way. Sure. You could keep having sex in exactly the same way, and you could incorporate a little bit of dirty talk on top of that, and then you're still having the same sex. If it's just like, hey, look, gotta get him hard, gotta get it in, gotta get him off.

Then that's Xander's infertility.

Get them hard, get them in, get him off. You know, you. You could translate. Get him hard, get him in, get him off. Into. Into, you know, the dirty talk of your choice, which our guide will help you with. You know, find your authentic dirty talk voice, all of that. And then, you know, yeah.

I did not think I'd be laughing so much, and I started this telling, like, one of the worst stories of my entire life. And now I'm, like, crying, laughing from. Get it hard, get it in, get him hard, get him in, get him off.

You're.

You're really something, babe. You're a great podcasting partner. You take it to places that I never thought we would get to.

You're welcome. I love. I love taking you places you never knew we'd go.

I set you up for that one real well right there.

You know, like, laughter helps, laughter helps, helps. Pleasure helps. Those are. Those are two ways to reduce a lot of anxiety about. About a challenging situation. So, you know, if you can find a way to bring a little bit of that into your sex life, hell, yeah, do it.

Yeah. You know, we should have put that in. In tip number two. About being a team. Like, listen to this episode together. I'm glad that we're making, you know, making each other laugh. Hopefully we're making you, the listener laugh and like bringing a little bit of lightness to this and, and helping you recognize like, all things can be true at the same time. Something can be really hard and heartbreaking and awful and there can still be joy and pleasure and fun and love. Both of those things. All of those things can coexist at the same time. So. Okay, so we'll link all those things for you in the show notes. And I think one other thing to think about is like doing your favorite thing with sex. So like, it doesn't even have to be that you're doing anything new or unusual or wildly different. But again, I think because we can get so focused on like intercourse, on getting him hard, getting him in and getting him off that we can lose sight of the other things that we already know that we enjoy. So it doesn't even necessarily have to be doing anything new. But just like, okay, let me remember. I love making out. I love when we give each other massages. I love when we cuddle afterwards. Like, do those things too. Don't forget about your favorites.

Well, yeah, you really just teed yourself up for our final tip.

Tip number five, Reserve a little time for non goal oriented sex or a lot of time.

Why not sure if you want however much time you have, but at least a little bit.

So it's really easy for a trying to conceive journey to take over every part of your sex life and honestly every part of your relationship, every part of your life. Like, especially if this is something you're struggling with for a long time, like you're doing all sorts of invasive treatments, like it's, it can become consuming and overwhelming. So it's really important for couples to be able to find a balance between goal oriented sex and sex that is for fun, pleasure, intimacy and connection. So in the previous tip we talked about like, you know, the sex that you're having already, like for the purposes of conception. Try to focus on making it fun and light hearted and, and, you know, pleasurable. But this is like a slightly different tip. Carve out a tiny little slice of your sex life. A slice of your peach pie. That's the worst accent. Like, how is that a southern accent? I don't slice a girl peach pie. We need somebody from the south to send us a. Please send us a voice message on Instagram so we can get a better example of a southern accent accent. Sayings. Give me a slice of your piece.

You know what? You know where this accent is coming from? It's actually. It's like the creepy old guy in Family Guy. Like, I can't.

Oh, no, I hate that. Ew. Erase. I'm gonna rewind and pretend that didn't happen because I don't want to think about that at all. I just want to think of you and your weird, not Southern accent. Okay, going back to it. Carve out a little slice of your sex life where you're having some sort of physical intimacy with each other that is not about conception. And again, like, I will say this until I'm blue in the face. Like, we're giving these tips, and we want to acknowledge that, like, it is not as easy. Wait, what is the phrase easier said?

It's easier said than done.

It's easier said than done. It is challenging. These decisions are not easy. Of course, there are going to be months where you're like. Like, I can barely muster up the energy to have the, you know, conception sex. I don't even want to have any other sex. That's okay. We understand. But if you have the energy, if you can, it doesn't have to be intercourse. Nobody even has to orgasm. But just having some times where you are having sex that's not just about conception, where you're cuddling, where you're using those foreplay guides and giving each other their hand jobs and blow jobs and oral sex and all kinds of stuff, even if it's just making out, we're just gonna make out, you know, and have that little bit of space. It's just. It's really about the energetics of it of, like, our entire sex life isn't just going into conceiving this child. We are also keeping something for ourselves, too.

Yeah. Because, you know, if all you are doing is just, you know, sex around ovulation, just this, you know, a more. I don't know, a more sterile form of sex that neither party is really enjoying. And then that doesn't feel very good. And so then, therefore, in the, you know, the middle of the month, you're like, okay, well, we're definitely not doing that. Then, of course, once it's all over, you're. You're gonna have started to associate sex, like, with this negative thing, with this challenging time that you had in your life, with these challenging emotions that were coming up. And so, of course, it's gonna be a struggle. Struggle to get back into your sex life afterward. And so, yeah, it may feel really hard in the moment. But it's like it's taking that more long term view, that bigger picture view of like, oh, okay, like if I can understand like the harmful dynamic that we might be setting up by just being like, okay, we're just doing it during ovulation, that's it. You know, it's gonna make it challenging down the road. And so, you know, they're like, we've given a lot of tips for how to make it less challenging down the road and in the moment.

Yeah. So of course, these last couple of tips that we've given have been focused on couples who are, you know, having intercourse for the purpose of conception. Again, we know that this is not everybody's journey. That's not the only way to make a baby. But I think there are still bits of those tips that can work for couples in any situation of really just trying to focus on keeping intimacy feeling intimate, like feeling pleasurable and fun and something special between the two of you. And yes, it might be different than it will be or has been in other seasons of your life, but that, that intimacy between the two of you is important and it is something to focus on, to preserve, to protect. Okay, so we wanted to share a few other thoughts. We put out a call to our community and we said, you know, if this is something that you've struggled with, you've been through, like, what other tips do you have for our community? Or what other words of wisdom or compassion can you share? So we have a couple things that we wanted to share with you, with you. First story is we dealt with infertility for years before conceiving our first baby. Sex was not fun at that point. It was timed and not spontaneous. And it basically became a chore and not a way for us to get closer. Fast forward seven years and we found you guys and your page once again. We were going through fertility treatments, but this time we used it as an opportunity to use your tips to really listen to each other, try new things, and make sure both of us enjoyed other each.

It.

It didn't feel like a chore. It was something we looked forward to because we both decided that us enjoying it was the number one goal. It only took three cycles after we took on that mindset before we were pregnant. I wholeheartedly think that finding you guys helped make that happen and happen so quickly.

My husband and I have been dealing with infertility for over a year. Our sex life was not in the best place to begin with. When we started trying to conceive for the last Few months, it became a hundred percent medical. There was zero fun. It was strictly sex to get pregnant. We went through fertility treatment and two fertility procedures without success. Then we decided we had to stop looking at all the bad and turn our mindsets around. We started really focusing on each other and our sex life. And now it is, wow, one with a lot of zeros.

What's that number?

1, 2, 3. And now it's a million times better.

Better.

I think it's a million.

No, that's 10 million.

Oh, what? I gotta. I gotta add the commas here in.

Order to 10 million times better.

Yeah, 10 million times better than it was even before we started trying to conceive. I honestly believe that the level our relationship got to emotionally with dealing with infertility enabled us to really open up such a deeper connection sexually. So overall, it has helped us so much. We are still trying to conceive, but we are having, having fun doing it now. I just gotta say, I really like that one. Like, I like, you know, this is sort of like a making lemonade with lemons type of situation. Like, yeah, this is going to be challenging, but let's use it as an opportunity to actually get closer and to improve our sex life.

Yeah, I mean, I think that's a wildly powerful mindset shift to make. And I know a lot of people will not be able to make that mindset shift. Like me sometimes, like, I cannot go from, like, let me turn the lemons into lemonade. But, you know, if you can switch your mindset like that, or even if it's like, I'm not doing a total 180 mindset switch, I'm gonna like, try to change my mindset 5%. That's good enough for now. Okay, here was just a super quick tip that I thought was really interesting. Someone said we planned trips and staycations around ovulation time. So sex was always somewhere new.

Hotel sex.

I mean, that's fun. Obviously, like, logistics might be different for other couples, but, like, that's a really fun thing to do.

Oh. I mean, and that's like a good way to take the pressure off too, is it's not like, okay, I'm like going 100 miles an hour, like with work, with the kids, and now we have like five minutes before bed. And get them hard, get them in, get him off. You know, it's like, hey, that's a great way to like actually force yourself to have some spaciousness. Like, oh, we're going somewhere, we're taking some time off. If you're able to.

Yeah. And it doesn't have to be every month. Maybe it's like a couple times a year if you can. Whatever it is that you can manage.

Yeah. And then, you know, if you do get pregnant during, then you have a great conception story to embarrass your kid with, you know, 15 years later.

Do you know where you were conceived?

I do know where I was conceived. I think I actually know the house I was conceived in. I was conceived in a beach house in Santa Cruz. I think that my parents were actually taking that advice. Yeah, they were. You know, I think it was actually like a friend's house. I don't know if the friend was there or like if they were just staying with a friend or like, you know, staying there for a weekend. But yeah. House on the beach in Santa Cruz. Hell yeah. What about you?

Mine might have been taking this advice too because I was conceived in Cancun.

Oh yeah. Party baby.

My parents are having a friggin party vacation in Cancun and along came me.

But it's, it's just funny because your parents are. Party is not a word that I would associate with either of your parents.

They're in freaking Cancun though. Like they were party. I mean they, my mom was young, they were definitely partying.

Yeah. Your mom hates the beach though. I don't think that, I don't think she ever loved the beach. Why they were in Cancun, we'll never.

Know that one time she loved being on the beach. All right, and our final tip.

Go to therapy. Not because something is wrong with you, but therapy is just an incredible, an outlet, an opportunity to share your feelings in a safe space. Share them with someone who's really well trained in like listening and asking you like good probing questions. Go to therapy on your own. Go to therapy as a couple. Like it. Speaking of, you know, long term investments, like therapy is probably one of the best long term investments. Investments you can make in terms of the emotional return, the life return, all of that. I could not recommend it highly enough. Just proactively set up some therapy appointments throughout your trying to conceive journey just so that you guys have a. The space to talk about it and you know, it'll just, it'll feel like, hey, we're, we love each other so much. We're so invested in our relationship. We're. We're willing to do this step proactive.

All right, well those are our tips. We will link some fun stuff for you in the show notes. Our four play guides. The sex position playbook, our dirty talk guide as well. So we hope that these tips have been helpful to you in your journey.

All right, well, that's it for today's episode of Pillow Talks. Thank you again so much for listening. And join us next week when we answer your spiciest questions yet in an ask us anything at all.

I forgot that that one's next. I. Yeah, I guess we're just going peak vulnerability in these two. Yeah.

Or maybe I should say your spiciest or your peachiest question.

Let in a little spice. Yeah, we are going to put a question box up for that one in a bit. But we are going to be asking people like, put, like push us with a question. Like, give us a question that you don't think we're going to answer. And we're going to challenge ourselves, like, how vulnerable can we get? So.

And after you are already so vulnerable today.

Oh, boy.

We're just pouring our hearts out.

I got. I guess I've got a week to recuperate from my vulnerability hangover.

All right, well, thanks for listening again. Bye.