EPISODE 95: Mental Load Part 2: Perfectionism, Gender Roles, And Finding Balance With Your Partner

The central question that comes up for me around this is, are we making the Mental load harder on ourselves than it needs to be? And creating more tension in our relationships, creating more resentment of our partners than needs to be there. Hello and welcome to the Pillow Talks podcast. We're your hosts, Vanessa and Zander Marin. I'm a sex Therapist with over 20.

Years of experience, and I'm just a regular dude. We share the ups and downs in our relationship while giving you step by step techniques for improving yours.

Make sure you subscribe for your weekly double date full of totally doable sex tips, practical relationship advice, hilarious and honest stories of what really goes on behind closed bedroom doors, and so much more. It's the sex education you wish you'd had. Hey, babe.

Yeah?

How big is your load?

This feels like a wildly inappropriate intro to this episode. Wow. I was. I was not expecting that. And no, ma', am, I will not answer that question.

You have a big one for me.

Wow.

I came up with that literally 10 seconds before you hit the record button. I was really proud of myself and I was trying to keep a straight face over here.

Is that what. Yeah, you were very quiet. You're like, okay, ready? Ready to start? Are we recording now?

I knew I'd catch you off guard. This is another episode that I'm so bummed that we are not recording on video yet. It's coming soon, but the look on your face is pretty good.

I am shocked and appalled.

So you really don't want to talk about your load today? I mean, we are going to talk about your load today.

Yeah. You know, I think this episode is not really about my load in that sense.

It's about a different kind of load. Fine. We are talking today about Mental Load. One of our very first episodes was about Mental Load. It was a very popular episode. We knew right away we were going to have to do a follow up because it's just an incredibly complex and nuanced dynamic. So that is episode four, if you never listened to it. Today we're going to be diving a little bit deeper and we're going to be talking about some nuanced things that come up with Mental Load. So if you've never heard of Mental Load before, then definitely go back and listen to that episode first. Today we're going to dive a little bit deeper. So to get us started, we turned to our Instagram audience and we asked, have you ever had a conversation about Mental Load with your partner? We just wanted to know, like, we did that one episode, but it was ages ago. How many people know about this? How many people have had this conversation, kind of, you know, get a little pulse, check on where everybody's at with this.

Yeah. I mean, and that's an important distinction because I think it's one thing to understand this concept, to see it talked about a lot on Instagram, because a lot of people, a lot of people talk about mental load over on social media. It's one thing to know about it and be like, oh, yeah, this is a big thing in my relationship. It's another thing to have opened up that conversation. And of course, what we want to talk about today are nuances that kind of have to do with, once you've had. Had that conversation, what can arise. So here's what people said. 36% of people said, we have talked about mental load and it went well. That's awesome. That's great. That's our biggest. That's our biggest number. 28% said, we have and it didn't go well. So still a relatively high number. Then 25%, a quarter of people said, we have not had a conversation about mental load, and 11% said, other, slash, it's complicated.

So honestly, our biggest group is that it has not gone well. Like, there was something complicated. It didn't go well. We haven't talked about it. So I would say the 36%, those are in the minority of dealing with it well in their relationship.

Yeah. So of people who have talked about it more, More of those conversations have gone well. But that's still only about positive spin.

To put on it.

But. But. Yeah, there's a but there. A big but. There's a big booty.

I know you like big, but there's.

A big booty there, and that's that.

Do you like big buts better than big loans?

I'm just going to continue. I'm just going to continue on with. With my part of this.

He's just rolling his eyes at me.

The. The big. The big but. The big booty here is that. Yeah, more people who've had the conversation have said it went well, but that's only about a third of the population, so that's still not very good.

Okay, next we asked, does mental load cause conflict in your relationship?

41% said, yes, often. 50% said, sometimes. So, okay, so if we add sometimes. Yes, often.

That right there, everyone.

Yeah, that's 91% of people. Only 8% of people said rarely or never. And then 1% fell into other. It's complicated.

So, yeah, I want to put you on the spot. Where would you put us? How would you respond to this one?

Now? I think I would say, hmm, that's tough. I mean, I think that it's like. There's part of me that wants to say rarely, but it's maybe like rarely plus.

Rarely plus. I mean, we every once in a while, perhaps.

Well, yes, I would say. Yeah. I mean, well, I would say sometimes it causes conflict. However, I think that you and I are very good at knowing how to. How to have that conflict. So it doesn't feel like. It doesn't feel like conflict per se. It feels more like we express some feelings and then we have space for each other to have those feelings.

No, I feel the same. I don't think we get. We used to. But since we have worked through this, which we will share with you how. But now we don't actively fight about it. There may be times where one of us is feeling overloaded or conversations we've had about renegotiating our agreements around mental load, but it doesn't feel like a source of conflict to me. To me, it feels like this is one of those things that's hard about life. I wish I didn't have to carry any mental load.

Yeah.

But it's not something that drives a big wedge.

Yeah, for sure. That, you know, that's that inner child in you that's like, I just want to go to my room and hang out and not have to clean it up, not have to make the bed, not have any responsibilities at all, and have my parents take care of me. Right.

Actually, that reminds me of a really important clarification. So let's define mental load. Mental load is the invisible mental energy that goes into keeping track of all of your responsibilities. So it's things like remembering, we're out of cereal. I've got to order it. The kids don't like. Like that doctor, so we have to find a new doctor, that kind of stuff. So in this episode, we are going to be blurring the lines a little bit between the mental load, the pure mental effort, and the actual doing of the thing, the chores and responsibilities. So I just want to be clear. They are two separate things. The mental energy that is the mental load, the actual physical doing of the thing is more like the responsibility, but it's a little blurry sometimes. So we're going to talk about both.

But before we get into that, we are going to quickly get into our review of the week. A genuine new lease on life.

Oh, wow.

What a headline.

Love it.

Damn. All right. Finding Vanessa And Xander has seriously changed mine and my husband's lives and empowered us with the tools and vocabulary to completely change our marriage. I've been following them on Instagram for a long time, but recently started listening to the podcast. And I love their advice, their honesty, their vulnerability, and their humor, which really helps when dealing with hard topics. I would agree with that.

It takes the load off, wouldn't you say?

It does. It does take a load off. A different kind of load.

He's just ignoring me now.

Not a mental load.

He won't make eye contact.

Not a sexual load, but just a load. I truly don't think I could ever put into words what this podcast has done for me as a person and as a wife. Thank you so much for doing this. Now, here's some emojis for Xander's enjoyment. Okay, well, cry. Laughing. Is that like biting the lip, or is that just sort of like. Sort of. Yeah, lip biting. Big old eggplant party face. Champagne poppin Pretzel Cherry Kiss face. That's not Pufferfish in love. Pufferfish. What?

That's a pufferfish. Oh, my God.

It sure is a pufferfish. Vanessa, she's wearing her glasses. Just let the record. Let the record show that Vanessa is wearing her glasses. Perhaps she needs to get her prescription checked.

Oh, I. So I kind of skipped ahead as you were reading this, because I was like, oh, yay. Somebody hasn't left emojis in the review for a while. That. That was one of our little shtick things at the beginning of the podcast, like sticks. I was like, see if you can overwhelm, Like Stump Xander overwhelm. But I was looking ahead at these, and I was like, ooh, that last one is a good one. He's not gonna be able to guess it, because I thought it was like. And I didn't know how I would describe it either. It looked like a sun behind some clouds.

Okay, well, you know what? I will. I'll throw you a bone here. And the bone is that the screenshot that has been dropped into our document here is very slightly blurry.

Okay. Yeah, it looks like a little slightly.

I think it got blown up. I think it got blown up and it's a little blurry or pixelated. Just very slightly. But it's still, to me, clearly a puffer fish.

Well, shoot. Well, we do love this review, and we love your new lease on life. Reviews go so far in helping the podcast succeed, helping us get in front of new people, new audiences. The podcast platforms will feature our podcast we have a lot of reviews, so we just appreciate you taking a few moments out of your day to leave us a little review. And we do this weekly giveaway. So if you ever hear your review read in the podcast, you can send us a message@infomtherapy.com let us know the username that you left the review with, and you will get your choice of one of four masterclasses absolutely free.

Hell yeah.

Just our little way of saying thank you for leaving reviews with the podcast and helping the podcast succeed. All right, so let's get into it. As I've been reflecting on Mental load, how this shows up for me, how it shows up in our relationship with, one of the topics that I keep coming back to is perfectionism. And I've shared before that I like to call myself a recovering perfectionist. I really struggled with perfectionism for a lot of my life, and I've put a lot of work into letting it go, overcoming it, understanding why I had it in the first place. And I think that perfectionism can show up a lot when it comes to mental load, and particularly when we get into that mushy area of the overlap between the mental load and the execution of the task, the doing of our responsibilities. So there's a difference between these are the things that need to get done. Like, we're adults, we lead full lives. These are the responsibilities that we have on our plate versus these are the things that need to be done in this way. And it is really tricky because there are certain things that have to be done in a certain way, but the in a certain way part can very easily turn into perfectionism. And I think this is especially true when it comes to women. So we have been socially to believe that a lot of our value is in running a good household. I mean, I think you and I have talked about this in the podcast before that we've had a lot of conversations about how we don't want to have traditional gender roles in our relationship. Like, we want things to be. We want to be equal partners. And yet I will speak for myself. Like, there are so many instances where I catch myself feeling like I'm the person who's in charge of the household and, like, how it feels to us and how it looks to other people. And I catch myself, like, yeah, caring really deeply about these things that then I take a step back and realize, like, do I really care about that? Like, what is it? What is the socialization versus what is who I authentically am? And I think because we are socialized to believe that our value lies in this. It's so easy for that to slip into perfectionism. Like, I have to do a really good job at this.

Yeah. Despite the fact that in your case, you have another job. You have a job of running this business together with me.

Yeah. So, like, a perfect example of this is when people come into our home. I feel like I'm the one responsible for, like, is it clean? Does it look nice? And even with the reality of Xander and I have some split up our responsibilities, we split up chores, we feel really good about the balance that we have. It's his house, He's a grown ass adult. It's his job to keep things clean too. But I, like, I feel that responsibility is mine.

Yeah, we. I mean, yeah, we definitely have different perspectives, I guess, of. Of how to host or what the role of the host is. And depending on who is coming over and how much attention you pay to people versus how much. Yeah. How presentable the house is and whatnot. And I mean, yeah, I guess it's just we each have two different approaches.

But yeah, I mean, again, it comes back to this question for me of like, is that my genuine, authentic desire or is this. I've been socialized that this is my role. This is what I need to be paying attention to. So the central question that comes up for me around this is, are we making the mental load harder on ourselves than it needs to be? And creating more tension in our relationships, creating more resentment of our partners then needs to be there? I mean, not that any conflict or resentment need to be there, but, like, is this added layer of perfectionism making an already hard thing a lot more hard and a lot worse? So we went over to our Instagram audience, we said, okay, we've been kind of noodling on this idea of, like, how perfectionism comes into the mental load. Is this something that you notice? And boy, oh boy did we get a lot of responses. So many people saying, I feel so seen right now. Like, this is a very big struggle with me. And a lot of people saying, like, I'm aware that I struggle with this perfectionism, but it's very hard to shake it.

Another person said, perfectionism shows up for me from making the bed a certain way to the order in which all the chores need to be done. And one more example was someone saying, my husband can get so much more done than me because he's less detail oriented.

See, this example is such a perfect example of how it gets really tricky. Like, is it that one partner is being Overly perfectionistic? Is it that the other partner is not doing a very good job at something?

Missing the details?

Is it both? You know, So a great example that comes up that's. It's more in the execution side of things. But the dishwasher. So I am really good at loading the dishwasher. I can play a game of Tetris in there. We can, like, Xander will say, okay, the dishwasher is full. It's ready to go. And I'm like, babe, give me 30 seconds. And I'm like, the dishwasher is half full. We can do a whole other, like, meal.

We have to wait a whole other day till we have clean dishes.

And. But sometimes I will open up the dishwasher and I'm like, xander, there is a freaking bowl, like, in the middle of the thing. This is obviously not a good place to put it. It is not optimized. So that's a great example. It's like, am I being overly perfectionistic, Thinking the dishwasher has to be loaded in the exact perfect way that maximizes all the spaces? Is it that Xander is not doing a great job? I mean, objectively, like, just putting a bowl in the middle of it, like, it's not great, is it? A little bit of both, yeah.

I mean, for me, I'm never trying to fuck with you when it comes to the dishwasher. Maybe I should start doing that, though, after this podcast. But, no, I mean, I have never had the experience of opening the dishwasher and being like, let me half ass this. Let me piss Vanessa off and put this somewhere. It's more like, you know, often when I'm putting something in the dishwasher, I'm doing it somewhat absentmindedly. Like, I'm more focused on, oh, like, the dishwasher is the means to an end. Like, oh, like, I need to. I need to clean up this kitchen a bit. So, like, you know, these. These dishes need to get in the dishwasher, and then I can move on to the pots in the sink. Because, you know, the way that we split things up, I. I do most of the pots and pans. And so very often I'm like, if I'm gonna do the pots and pans, to me, it. Well, I guess maybe here's some perfectionism that shows up for me. I actually. Yeah, I actually kind of have an issue with the kitchen where, like, I don't like. I don't like to just do one part of it that feels like knowing that, oh, there's still a bunch of Dirty dishes. I'm kind of like, if I'm gonna start doing the dishes, like, I'm gonna finish the dishes so often, I'm just like, oh, God, these plates that are sitting here. Because the dishwasher was running, like, now I gotta. I gotta empty the dishwasher so that I can put these dishes in so that I can move on to the pots, which are under the plates that are stacked, you know, inside the sink. That. So then I'm just kind of, like, throwing them in there. I'm not thinking, like, oh, let me get this dishwasher perfectly full. I'm like, I'm actually. I'm trying to execute on my responsibility, which is the pots and pans. And I see everything else is just in the way.

Okay. I'm really glad that you said this, number one, because I was starting to feel bad of, like, what it. Like, what is that thing? Why is it that I care about the dishwasher? And you're able to see it in this more objective, like, yeah, it's just, like, a means to an end. It's just a tool.

Well, one reason is I have. I grew up with a dishwasher my entire life. Vanessa. Vanessa's parents, the house where she grew up, doesn't have a dishwasher. Still doesn't have a dishwasher, May never have a dishwasher. So the dishwasher is a novel thing to her. I remember when you first. I think the first time you had a dishwasher was probably when we bought our first place together in San Francisco. And it means more to me. It was like a shiny toy for you. For me, it was. It's just been a tool my entire life.

Okay, maybe that's part of it. But no, I'm glad that you went through your thing with the dish, like, washing the pans, because that made me realize, ah, that's the way that he's nuts. I'm a little bit nuts about the dishwasher being effectively filled. You're a little bit nuts about doing the pans. And this might actually turn into a tip that we have for our listeners of. Can you talk about the standards that you have, the ways that you like to do things? So it gives you this opportunity to, like, bounce things off each other and say, like, is that really reasonable? Like, I hear you saying, you know, we gotta clean the kitchen all in one go? And I'm thinking, well, sometimes we don't always have that time. And, like, it's nice to just do a little bit here and then a Little bit there. So, you know, it's just like, we have a conversation about it rather than feeling so alone in our idiosyncrasies.

It's funny to hear you say that, because. Yeah. I mean, like, I'll be. I'll. I'll get bothered by the kitchen, like, in the middle of the work day, and I'll take, like, 15 minutes that I maybe don't always arguably have and be like, well, I had to do the pot. The pots were piling up. And then, well, I had to do all the dishes, too, because the dishes were on top of the pots. Because I. There's also maybe kind of a perfectionistic part of me, too, that sees that doesn't want to. I don't want to. Like, I know the pots are my responsibility. Mm. We don't have it split up where, like, dishes are for sure. Vanessa's responsibility. I think we kind of. Or maybe we do. No.

Loading the dishwasher.

Loading the dishwasher. Is it. Yeah, it's a joint responsibility, but the pots are mine. And so I don't want to be that guy that's. That's like. Like, in the room, like, in a roommate situation. You know, that roommate that. Like, there's a bunch of dishes in the sink, and then, like, you only do. You very specifically only do your dishes. Oh, yeah. Oh, I'm just doing mine. I don't know where that whole other mess came from. Like, I. Maybe I had that experience too many times living with roommates. Or I'm just like, I'm not going to be that guy. I'm not going to leave a stack of dishes in the sink and be like, oh, well, I did the pots and pans, so I'm good.

So I think mental load has a way of making us feel very alone, and especially when we're getting into perfectionistic parts of it. So having these conversations out loud with each other is a way of recognizing we're not alone in it. Yeah. I mean, I think that the perfectionism piece really can drive a wedge in between partners. Like, it makes it hard on you if you have that perfectionistic approach to it and makes it hard on your partner. Like, we asked people in our Instagram audience to give examples of, like, ways that this might show up for them. One person said, when I ask my hubby to do a chore I normally do, I anxiously watch him do it all wrong.

Another person said, I finally just told my husband to not do the laundry anymore.

Oh, the good old. I'll just do it myself.

That that'll show him and that'll show him and it will teach him. No, not. Just kidding.

Another person said, my partner never makes the coffee right.

And another person said, my partner will fold our couch throat super nice, but doesn't fold it in the way I do. So it's therefore wrong. I did tell him I appreciate it, but also now it slightly bothers me that it's not folded the way I like. This one is so interesting because this person identifies that their partner does do it super nice, but it's still wrong. I think a lot of people will be like, oh, what you're doing isn't nice enough, or it's bad and my way is right. This one, I think is. This one is definitely a strong perfectionistic tendency where you're like, it's really good, but it's not the way I want it.

Exactly. And that's. Yeah, it's so much mental energy for us to take up that things can't be good or even great or super nice. They have to be perfect. So I think it's really valuable for each of us to take a little bit of time to think about. And maybe let's start with the mental load and execution tasks that bother us the most and that feel the hardest. Maybe we argue about the most and kind of start with this idea of what are the specific things that need to go into accomplishing this task? And then taking a little bit of time to ask yourself, does that feel reasonable? Is this something that actually adds to my life, that does create something positive? Or might this be a way that I'm making this so much harder on myself? Like, we are all busy, right? We all have a lot of stuff that we're doing. I think most people feel like we don't have enough hours in the day to do all the things we need to do. So can we make it a little bit easier on ourselves by not adding these super specific layer of how things need to be done? So especially if we're examining it in this lens of my happiness is at stake, my sanity is at stake, my time is at stake, the health of my relationship is at stake.

Yeah, I mean, it's like, is it worth the extra time to do. Do it this way to get that little dopamine hit of satisfaction when you see it done that way relative to what else you could be doing with that time? Like, could. Would that mean that I might have more time to connect with my partner or, you know, 10 minutes alone to decompress or something like that? Like, I Think a lot of us, I think perfectionism can kind of box us in, you know, really tight, where we kind of like, you can't see the forest for the trees. It's like, oh, I have to do this task. And as soon as I finish this task, then I can focus on the other stuff. And when you do that, you forget, oh, what are the other things? Do I even have time to do all these other things? Like, what are the trade offs? And so, yeah, if it's like, well, huh, do I get to spend some more time with my kids or with my partner if I just, you know, do this a good enough way versus doing it the best way?

I will say I know with perfectionism, and I know this from a lot of personal experience. Like, we often know rationally like this perfectionism, it's not really helping me, it's actually hurting me. But it's hard to go from that just rational understanding into actual action. I mean, it took me a long time and a lot of therapy to overcome my perfectionism. So I don't want to make it seem like it's as easy as just snapping your fingers. But one way that it might feel a little bit easier is that there may be some aspects of your mental load and your chores that do feel worth it to you. So I'll give you an example. I'm the laundry person. I genuinely like. I. I wouldn't say I enjoy laundry, but it's like my least unpleasant chore that I have to do. I don't mind the mental load of it. I've come up with systems for myself. Like, it's just not that big of a deal. But I really love having a beautiful, organized linen closet. The sheets are nicely folded. I have the way that I like to fold them.

The towels, she folds a mean sheet.

I will say, oh yeah, I'm really good at the fitted sheets.

I hate to say I've never really noticed the towels.

You gotta go look, babe. As soon as you're done recording, you gotta go pop open that cabinet. But the towels are all facing the same direction. They're all folded in the same way.

And.

And when I open up that linen cabinet, I feel good. I feel that dopamine hit. I feel like an adult. I feel proud of my beautiful towels and my sheets. And for me, taking that extra, I don't know, couple of seconds to fold the towels in the right way, to put them in the right order, like, that does feel worth it to me. I know, it's bonkers. Nobody sees the linen closet Ever. Xander never even sees the linen closet. But I see it, and I like it. And I don't care if it doesn't make. Make the towels more efficient, more absorbent, more fluffy. Like, I like it, and it's worth it to me.

Question for you. Okay. Why don't you leave the. The cloth. The linen closet doors open so that more people could see the fruits of your labor? It's always closed.

I mean, well, it's right in the middle of our hallway, and you can't, like, leave those doors open.

I don't know.

No, I like it. It's like, my little. Tucked behind those.

We gotta get some, like. Like, clear plastic sliding doors or something.

No, I don't a dis. I honestly don't even care about other people seeing it. I'm not gonna, like, bring people over and, like, look at my linen closet. But it feels good for me, and that's okay. And I can take some time to think, like, okay, why do I care about the towels? Is there some, you know, interesting socialization I've received around this? Is this pressure to, like, have the perfect household? So I will examine it, but it's also something that I enjoy, and it doesn't take that much extra energy, so that's okay. So maybe finding some similar things for yourself instead of being like, oh, I can't have any standards, or I can't do anything in the way that I like to do it. Like, obviously that's not gonna work for you, but if you are able to kind of pick and choose. You know what? I don't care as much about the dishwasher. I don't care as much about having, you know, the perfect. Whatever it is. But this thing does feel good to me. That might help. All right, the next hot button mental load issue that we want to talk about is men and mental load, which I coined the mantle load. I cannot believe nobody has ever said this before. I was very proud of myself when I came up with it. It was on an Instagram story. It was from last month. I'm gonna trademark it the Mantle Load.

Why don't you just. Why don't you just have it be mental load, and you capitalize the M E N in mental load.

No, I like mantle load a little bit more.

Okay, but one man. One man in his load.

Yeah, one man's load, babe. He's still rolling his eyes at me. He really doesn't like it. Why don't you like my load jokes?

Maybe. Maybe our next podcast can be devoted to blowing your load. Jokes.

Okay, so we have talked a few times on our Instagram stories. By the way, if you don't follow us on Instagram, you should. Vanessa and Xander. Xander with an X. We've recently started saying that because I realized we, a lot of people think that Xander is spelled with a Z. It is not. Anyways, we have talked about men and mental load a few times in our stories. And I've noticed that each time we have, we've gotten a lot of upset DMs from women, from women saying, like, why are you talking about mental mental load?

Men and tol load?

Yeah, like, this is a woman's issue. You know, it's not fair to be talking about them. They don't carry any mental load. Women are carrying all the mental load. There's been just frustration and people have been, you know, polite about it, but it's just obvious that there are strong feelings about this. So this is something that I've been noodling around on for a long time. And I do think the initial conversations that started happening about mental load were focused on women. And that is incredibly important and it should have started that way. Women, undeniably, it has been shown in research, carry the majority of household and family mental load. We are socialized to believe that these are the things we are supposed to take care of. And not only that, as an entire society, we really undervalue these tasks. So it's this horrible position that we women get put in where we have to do all this work and it's incredibly undervalued work. So I want to be super clear, like, there's a lot of fucked up stuff when it comes to women and mental load. There are a lot of important conversations that we need to be having for most people. And like most couples, if you've never had a conversation about mental load, you probably do want to start with the gender imbalances. I also don't want to assume that everybody is in male female relationships, but.

Or that in a male female relationship that it's always the woman takes care of household stuff. Because that's not always true.

Yeah. But again, I just want to acknowledge, like, historically and overall this has been a gendered issue.

Yes.

And our favorite word. And men carry mental load too. It's very important for us to acknowledge that both partners carry mental load in a relationship.

And here's the key. It's acknowledging it. It's not turning it into a competition where it's like, okay, let's quantify your mental load now. Let's quantify your partner's mental load. Oh, this person has more. Therefore they win. They have it harder. I mean, that's, I feel like that's just like a common, a common human thing. Like when we talk about like how challenging things are, it's like we kind of want to do this woe is me type thing and like, oh, no, like I have it harder than that. Oh no, like I'm. It's harder for me. I think.

Yeah. A lot of us feel like there's not that a space for both people's experiences to be recognized. And so it, it does turn into this competition, this fight of like, no, no, no, no, I'm the one carrying more. And even if that is the case, like, even if you are the person carrying more mental load in your relationship, your partner is still carrying some.

And I think, yeah, because if they were carrying nothing, like zero. Like what kind of.

Really, there probably are some relationships that are like that.

But yeah, I mean, then that's a relationship where you basically have a mother and like a mother. Son dynamic.

Mother, Child dynamic.

Yeah, child.

Yeah, I know. So, you know, if we turn it into this black and white, only one person is carrying it, only one person is dealing with it. That is just a one way ticket to you guys feeling like adversaries. That is a fight between the two of you.

Yeah. And also if the conversation is only about one person carrying it and the other person not, then like, what the hell can we actually do about it? Because the answer is trying to balance the load. And if you're trying to balance the load, it necessarily means that the other person is taking on some mental load. So therefore they have some. Like the. The goal of this is it's not to make it even per se, but it's to balance the load. To have it be, you know, to feel equitable. And for it to feel equitable, it does mean that the partner is going to take on some mental load. And therefore you guys should both be able to talk about the mental load that you carry.

So both of these things can be true at the same time. Like you can feel like you're carrying the majority of the mental load. You can feel like you're drowning in the mental load and responsibilities and your partner can still be carrying some too. And acknowledging your partner's mental load does not invalidate yours. And I actually want to just lean into that for a moment because I think that the intensity of feelings that come up around mental load for so many people are. Because so many people feel like they're absolutely drowning in it. And of course, when you're feeling overwhelmed, when you feel like you don't have a real partner, a real teammate in your relationship, like, those are very heavy, scary, overwhelming feelings. And I completely sympathize with and can understand, like, the intensity that comes up. So I want to make sure we're being really careful and saying, like. Like, we're with you. If you feel like you are carrying way too much mental load, like, we create resources to help couples talk about it, to balance it out in ways that are gonna feel better. Like, we don't want you. We're not trying to send the message of, like, just suck it up, buttercup. Everybody's suffering. You know, like, it sucks. It's a real issue. It's a hard issue. It's an issue that needs to be resolved. So, you know, we'll just make sure that we're saying all of that. But. But one of the things that we hear a lot about from male, female couples is a lot of women will tell us. You know, I've tried to talk to him about mental load, and he just doesn't understand. He doesn't get it, and that's tough. Like, I wish that your partner could immediately understand it and empathize with it and recognize it's something that needs to change. And sometimes the easiest way to help somebody understand something that they're not understanding is to tie it to their own personal experience. So if you can acknowledge and talk about the mental load that he's carrying, even if it might drive you batshit at first, like, oh, my God, you think that's hard? I have so many more things that I'm dealing with. That was, like, a very Muppety voice that came out of me. I don't know what.

That was a little like Zooey Deschanel.

In a New Girl.

Yeah, yeah. She's a quirky girl. I don't know if anyone is gonna pick get that, but, yeah, tons of.

People watch New Girl. It's very popular.

She's a quirky girl. Where did that come from, though? Oh, no, that was like an SNL skit.

An SNL skit.

Making fun of her, or her making fun of her, perhaps.

Okay, so the point I was trying to make when I got too Muppety is that it might be a way to open the conversation if you acknowledge your partner's mental load, let them talk about it, and then use that to talk about yours. And again, it's tricky. We don't want to turn it into a competition. We don't want to compare. But if you start from this place of acknowledgment, that often lowers defensiveness and helps us listen to each other better.

Oh, yeah. I mean, because if you just come in hot as, like, I have all this and you don't have any of it, then it's kind of like how we say, like, don't use the words always and never. They just cue you into defense mode. It turns it into a logistical argument. That's the same thing with this. If you come in, if, you know, feeling competitive about it, you are literally turning it into a competition where then, you know, your partner's not set up to understand, they're, they're set up to defend. So they're going to either try to talk about, wait, no, but I'm actually doing all these tasks, or they're going to try to kind of disregard. Well, that's just your job. Look, I, I have my job, you have your job. Like, so, yeah, you're just not setting yourself up for success that way.

So we asked the men in our Instagram audience, like, tell us, what mental load do you carry in your relationship? We had one answer that was, by a long shot, the most common one, and that was money. So a lot of men feel like they are the partner in the relationship. And this is not every relationship, to be totally clear, but there were a lot of men who feel like they are the main person who holds the mental load around money, finances, financial security. A lot of men mentioned, you know, we're in a relationship where the other partner's a stay at home partner, I'm the sole breadwinner, and there's just an immense amount of pressure that can go along with that. I would love for you to share, Xander, because you and I have had conversations about this in our own relationship. You know, I've been talking a lot about the shitty socialization that I received as a woman around what my worth is. You've talked about some of the shitty socialization you've received as a man about what your role is when it comes to money and finances.

Yeah, I mean, I, I just, I don't even know where it came from. I just, you know, as I was finishing up college, I just had this very strong desire, like, I want to be financially independent. I don't want to be dependent on my parents at all for anything. I want to be self sufficient. So I went out and I got jobs that would allow me to be self sufficient. I kind of, you know, I just, as I got into A relationship with Vanessa, I just assume, you know, well, I made more money than you did at the time, and I just kind of assumed that that was my job. And on top of that, when Vanessa and I moved in together, it was right at the same time that Vanessa went back to grad school. And so I was. I was covering both of us. I was providing for both of us financially. And so I therefore thought, okay, well, all the other, you know, financial stuff that goes along with that, like budgeting and saving and all of that, you know, paying the credit card bills, paying all the bills, that must therefore be mine, because it's like my money. Even though it was our money. I mean, I was also going through a whole thing of, you know, of acclimating to the fact that we were sharing things. But, yeah, I just assumed, well, it had to be me because I was the one providing it.

I think money is such a great example, because if you're not carrying the majority of the mental load around money, it's very easy to see it as kind of a simple thing like, yeah, it just goes into our bank account. We pay the bills. Like, there's not much to it.

Yeah, we have it. We use it.

There is a lot of mental load that goes in around money and a lot of pressure, a lot of anxiety. I mean, I think money is one of the most. Most evocative topics for us. And so if you feel like you're the person who takes care of the majority of the household responsibilities, and that feels so huge and overwhelming to you, and you feel like, my partner doesn't even understand the depths of what I go through to, like, keep this household running. It might be interesting to consider if your partner's the one holding the financial mental load that they might be feeling the exact same way.

And I think the other thing with, like, financial mental load and some of the other more male mental loads that we were going to talk about, you know.

Yeah, the male in.

In this list that we have here, I think that, you know, there can be this vibe or this I. This feeling that goes along with many of them that. Where it's like, okay, so I may not be spending that many hours actually physically doing stuff about the. The finances on a given week, but the stakes feel really high. So it's always. It's always with high pressure. So it's like, you know, so, like, you know, I'm just going to kind of, like, try to. Try to feel into, like, what, you know, a guy might think who is not familiar with this at all. Like, you know, one someone might be like, okay, yeah, well, like, you're doing the household stuff, but, like, if you were to forget to do. If you were forget to do the laundry one day, like, everyone would still live. Whereas, like, if I forgot to make the mortgage payment or something, like, we might lose our house or something like that. And I know that's like a really extreme example. Like, actually, yeah, missing one mortgage payment isn't actually the end of the world. You're just going to have a little penalty. But, like, But I think that there can be this idea of, like, yeah, it's this really. It's this big task where the stakes are very high. We could lose everything. And one could make the argument, okay, well, yeah, if you, like, don't wash the dishes today, like, we might just get a little mold on a plate or something like that.

We're getting into comparison.

Yeah, I know, I know.

I think that if you flip it around, the partner who takes care of the majority of the household mental load could feel the exact same way. Like, you don't even understand what goes into this. And, like, it could have very dire consequences of us getting sick, not having food to eat, like, not having proper stuff that we need. Just, like, survive and be healthy and. Okay. So I think, yeah, we don't want to compare and say the financial mental load is harder than the household mental load, but I think we're trying to illustrate the ways that it might feel that way inside someone's head. If you haven't had these kinds of open conversations that we're advocating.

Yeah, yeah, I think we're just trying to describe this so that, you know, if you are to broach a conversation about it, you know, you might be able to empathize with, okay, the money thing. You're not spending 40 hours a week on the money stuff, but you're constantly thinking about it because it feels like the stakes are very high. And maybe I can relate that to some of my tasks where I feel like the stakes are really high or they're really important or, you know, the stuff about, you know, I don't know, something about your kids and their health or whatever, you know, like, that's just as important. So. So hopefully it just gives you the tools or the language to be able to draw some comparisons or build some empathy amongst each other.

Yeah, I mean, we're jumping the gun a little bit and getting ahead of ourselves. But it's so powerful for couples to have these conversations with each other and say, this is the mental load. I'm carrying and this is what it feels like for me to carry it and to not get into that place where you're comparing or trying to one up each other but, but genuinely trying to validate each other, trying to see each other, like wow, that sounds really hard. It's different. It's different. It's not worse than, easier than, whatever. It's different. But like I can see that and I can empathize with that. Let's go back to this list though, of other things that men said that they're carrying mental load around. I wanted to ask you about this one because this was the second most popular answer. It was safety. So we've never really talked about this. Like, do you feel like you're carrying any mental load around our safety?

I mean on a day to day basis like where we live now? No, not really.

Invaders.

Not, not really. But like, but like thinking back to, you know, we used to live in San Francisco, which is not the safest city. And yeah, I don't know, it's been a while. But I remember when we were there, like, you know, San Francisco is much less safe than, than New York City at the time. And you know, you definitely, when you live in San Francisco, it's a very block by block city. Like you'll be on one block, it's like super nice and fancy and you go one block over and all of a sudden you're like, oh my God, what just happened? So yeah, I mean that was always something that I was aware of, of like, oh, if we're walking, like, oh, like maybe let's jog around this block because this next block is sketchy or, or whatever or just kind of like, you know, I've always, always, I've always been aware in big cities. Like I need, I need to be aware. I'm not going to just have my phone out and like totally disengaged. Especially if it's just you and me or we're traveling or somewhere unfamiliar. I'm kind of aware of like I need to project, I need to project an energy of like this, this guy is aware he's looking around. He's not like an easy target. And especially when we're together, I don't think about that very much when I'm on my own because like I'm a, I'm not, I'm not a big guy, but I'm not a small, I'm not a small guy. Like I'm not, I don't think I'm like someone that is like an easy Target per se. But yeah, when we're together, I'm definitely aware.

Let me phrase it to you this way. As a man, do you think you're responsible for keeping me safe? As a woman?

Yes. But then there's the part I mean.

Well, like, just answer with your gut. Like, not with what.

Yeah, my gut. My gut is. Yes. Like, if we got into a situation, I mean, this is so extreme. But if we got into a situation on the street where, like, someone pulls up and they want to, like, kidnap you in front of me, I'm not going to be like. I'm like, I'm not going to be like, she should have fought back. Like, oh, can't do anything about it. She didn't fight back.

But do you think, like. Like, I feel invested in your safety, but do you feel like there's some added dynamic of, like, like, you as the man and me as the woman? There's a different kind of responsibility that you have. Answer from your gut.

Yeah, I mean, I feel like. I mean, this is like. Yeah, I. If we got into a really shitty, bad situation where, like, one of us had to defend the other one, like, I would feel like I would need. I would need to. I would need to defend you. I would go to what, anyone, you know, I would go to whatever extreme was necessary to keep you safe. And I, And I do, And I do think, like, I wouldn't hold it against you if, If. If the tables were turned and like, you were scared or you weren't, like, physically capable. Like, I wouldn't, I wouldn't hold that against you.

I want to cry. What does that feel like for you to feel that level of responsibility?

I mean, I guess it just kind of. Like I said, I don't carry that with me very much every day. That's kind of why I was like, I don't even really want to talk about this.

I know that it's like, it's not a, like, day to day thing that you. It's not like you're constantly, you know, on the alert, but, like, just. I don't know, when I hear you say that, that feels like there's a heaviness to it to me.

Yeah. I mean, but, yeah, I guess I just, you know, I feel like I'm. That's. I'm. I'm bigger and I'm stronger than you are, like, physically. And so that's, you know, that's my job.

Well, we're illustrating it right now. This is the power of having these kinds of conversations because I, I Mean, I saw this on the list, and I was like, safety. What the fuck are they talking about? But, like, hearing you describe what that feels like for you, the weight of it, like, that makes me feel empathy, and that makes me realize, like, yeah, I never would have described this as mental load. I never before would have. Yeah, I just wouldn't have recognized it before. But now that I hear you verbalize that, I'm like, that is a thing. That is a weight that you're carrying, that. I don't think about your safety in that way. Like, I'm like, obviously, I want you to be safe. I don't want anything to happen to you, but I don't. It doesn't feel like a responsibility to me in the way that it sounds like it feels like to you.

Yeah. Yeah, I guess so.

So have these conversations. Okay, let's keep going through the list.

All right, next is handyman tasks, like fixing things around the house.

The next one was garbage, which was interesting. There was a New York Times article about this, like, maybe two years ago that said garbage is one of the most gendered tasks. I believe it was that in 99% of male female relationships, the garbage is the man's task duty. And I was like, that's wild. Garbage man. Xander's the garbage man. I do not do the garbage.

The garbage man. From day one in our relationship, Vanessa made it very clear that she. I do cannot be bothered by the garbage. I feel like we've, like, we've. We've had friends even be like. Be like, yeah, like, my ex boyfriend, who I broke up with, like, comes over to my house to do. To do the garbage because I, like, I'm. So don't do the garbage. Shout out to the. If that person happens to be listening.

What? Why are you shouting out that random person?

No, it's a friend of ours. I don't know. A friend of ours said that. Oh, well, I know, I know.

Find out after we record. Okay, let's continue.

All right, Yard maintenance.

Shout out to our gardener. I just want to shout out all kinds of random people now, this episode.

Yeah. Because I. Because I suck at yard maintenance. We have.

First that one.

All right. We also have car maintenance.

We have sex.

Yeah. And I. I'm not surprised to see this here because men tend to be socialized still that, you know, they have a higher sex drive. They always want sex. Men are supposed to initiate sex. I think, you know, there's a. There's a stereotype that, you know, women don't want to initiate Sex or women don't need to initiate sex. And so, yeah, of course, I think men can feel like, oh, it's my responsibility to be making sure we're having, having sex or having an appropriate amount of sex.

As we were writing our book, Sex Talks, which if you have not picked up a copy, you can go to sextalksbook.com we have all the links to purchase it there.

It's out. You'll get it very quickly.

It's great. But that was one of the things that struck me the most is realizing, you know, because we had a lot of conversations about our own sex life in the process of writing, writing the book. And it was something that I'd understood as a sex therapist, but talking about it as a couple, hearing you talk about it, the stories that you have in the book, it helped me understand it on a deeper layer. Like all the ways that men feel pressured around sex, all these expectations of them, all the ways they're supposed to show up. Like, it's. Yeah, it's really something. So those are some of my favorite parts parts of the book. Next on the list we had figuring out a work life balance.

I'm guessing this one is sort of a particularly complicated. If you have a, you know, if, if you're in sort of like a salaried type of job where you're not, you're not working like a set schedule, where it's like, okay, I work, I work, you know, 40ish hours a week, but I also work over, you know, I could work more if there's more work and I don't get paid extra for it. Like, I think that there's, you know, I've definitely been in jobs like that before where, you know, there's not a, there's not a, you know, you're not scheduled for specific hours. You just do the work. And it, yeah, it does, it does fall on you to figure that out. How do you set boundaries? That's really hard. I had a lot of challenges with that for a long time. And especially, you know, if, you know, if you have a partner, that's hard making time for them. It's harder if you have a family trying to make time for that and just feeling like there's this constant balance of, you know, I think the trap that a lot of us fall into, myself included, was thinking that, you know, in work, in your career that more hours equals better. So that it's, so that it's this constant, like, okay, well, in order for me to get promoted, in order for me to get a big pay increase. Like, I got to put in more hours. Got to put in more hours. And that means I have to take hours away from the family or from the balance that I'm also supposed to have. Because most companies will also tell you, hey, you're supposed to have a balance. But we have all this work for you to do right now. So, yeah, I know personally, that is definitely a very challenging one, especially if you are also responsible for the financial load, because it's like, okay, well, how do I balance? I got to make the money and that means I got to put in the hours. So. So, yeah, that's a tough one.

Next on the list was technical support for the family, which is very true in our relationship. You are not only the technical support for both of us, but also for my entire family.

Yeah, you know, I actually.

You're the tech guy.

Yeah. Or I was the tech guy. I think I, I kind of, I kind of started to see the ways in which I started to take that role too seriously and it was adversely impacting my, my well being. And I, Yeah, I think I sort of set a couple boundaries there which were good and healthy. But yeah, I mean, this is a tough one because. Yeah, you think, okay, well, this is my job to make sure that like, all the tech is working or like you see someone or, you know, but this is where it gets insidious is like you start seeing someone doing something that's like, not really the best way or like they have an old device and they're, they're. And like whatever they're doing isn't working anymore. And so then you're trying to tell them, like, oh, you got to do it this way. And then like, you're telling people how to do things and then you just create this cycle then where people are more dependent on you because you've told them, oh, you need to get this device or this software or this service and oh, it turns into a whole mess real quick.

Yeah, okay. And the last item on our list was just being the rock. So one man wrote, it makes it really hard to ask for help. And I think this is another one that. God, the conversations that we could have about this, like, what it feels like to have to be the rock for your family, to feel like you have to be the one person where no matter what's going on, whatever chaos is coming up, like, you're supposed to be steady and not rattled and not swept up in it. Like. Like that sounds very heavy.

Yeah, I mean, I think that just I mean, it just comes from the shitty gender stereotype of, like, oh, well, women are emotional and men aren't, and therefore, men have to have it together.

So, interestingly, when we put up that question box, a lot of men said that they felt like their mental load and their doing of the task, their execution, goes unnoticed by their partner. And I know that that's also one of the main complaints that we hear from the partner. I feel like my guy does not see. He does not understand. So our main tip here, which we already blew our load with earlier.

Oh, God.

Badoom. Is it's so important for couples to talk openly about mental load, to share with each other the load that you're carrying. And most importantly, what is it feels like to carry that load. I mean, just in that little nugget of a conversation that Xander and I had about safety, like, I feel like I'm understanding something different about you that I didn't realize before. It opens up compassion. It opens up, you know, this spaciousness in me, and it helps me. You know, I will admit I've had times where I've felt like I'm carrying the whole load for this relationship. But when I hear Xander talk about his load and what it feels like for him, it's a very powerful reminder to me of, like, no, I'm not. I'm absolutely not. You're carrying a ton of mental load as well. So, again, the goal is for couples to see each other, to see the things that we're each doing, to appreciate each other, and of course, to have these conversations about how we split up the load and the execution in a way that's going to feel fair and balanced in our relationship. It's not going to be 50 50. It's going to look different for every relationship, but to have a specific plan. So that whole part of it we cover in our Mental Load workbook. We will link to that in the show notes. It's a really practical, simple guide for helping you have these conversations and come up with a specific game plan for the load in your relationship.

All right, now we're going to get into a couple listener questions. First one is, we felt like it was better for our family if I stayed home with our kids while they are young. Obviously, it makes sense that I'm responsible for more of the household children's things, but I do basically all of it, and it's exhausting. But how would I share some of this mental load when he's not home for most of it, he's home for one to Two hours before the kids go to bed. Then he wants to unwind and on the weekends he just wants to relax.

So this is the thing about mental load and the execution. It's is we all have a lot of it. There's a lot of stuff for us to do and I'm sure we would all love the opportunity to unwind and just relax. But unfortunately like we don't have the space to do that whenever we want to. So that's why it's so important for couples to have these conversations about the load and figure out how to share it.

Unless your partner is like an investment banker or something. And also working 93 hours a week. I think that the like, sorry buddy. Like the reality of the situation is you have a full time job during the week. Your partner also has a full time job during the week. So the, at the very least like the weekends, like you, you gotta, you know, you got a home and a family. Like you don't get to, you don't get to be like, oh, well, I did my hours during the week. I'm just gonna relax your partner on the weekend. So at the very least I think you gotta like, you gotta be. Find a way to separate the weekends from the week. Maybe during the week you guys are each doing your full time jobs, but on the weekend, like that's the weekend. Neither, like, neither of you are, or I mean, I guess you're at, you're at work, which is the house and like you both have to get to work. Yeah.

And this is also a prime example of what I mean, that we undervalue the household tasks. Like this was a woman who sent in this question and like, I think she is seeing herself in this way and her husband is seeing herself in this way that like, like, oh, she's just staying at home. Like staying at home is easy. I'm going off to work and working a real job. And that is bullshit. Like staying at home, taking care of the kids, taking care of all the household. That is a double full time job.

Yeah. If you don't.

Credibly hard.

Yeah. If you don't. Yeah. If you don't believe your partner, then take a week off work and you do the job at home for a week and just see for yourself.

Oh yeah, that would be a very interesting.

Yeah. Like if you want to get competitive with it, then I mean, show them, show them once and for all how much better you can do it. Because I can almost assure you that you can't.

Don't get competitive. That is not the advice that we're giving. But we do both get a little bit fired up about this topic because we see the ways that the stay at home parent role gets undervalued and the out in the workforce role gets. That's overly valued. Bottom line, you're both working your butts off. You both have a lot of stuff and you need to make a plan for sharing it. We don't get to have one partner who's just like, oh, well, I get to relax on the weekends because I want to unwind. The next question that we had, it was very similar. This person asked, how can you share everything you carry without overwhelming your partner? And I think there's the same vibe there. It's like, it's not your job to protect your partner from how much you guys have on your plate. Like your adult. You made the decision to create a life together and you're both responsible for that life. So very often mental load gets framed in these ways of like, oh, well, it's the woman's job to do all this stuff and if she wants any help, she just needs to ask for help. No, that's not it. It's not asking for help. It's both people being adults having responsibilities, needing to take care of them. So I would really encourage this person. Don't view this as like, oh, I need to protect my partner and take care of them. That's even more mental load that you're putting on your shoulders.

I also think with this one, I mean, we might be interpreting the word overwhelm differently, but what came to mind for me is that, you know, when you're sharing just stuff that you carry, it's a matter of like, how are you sharing it? Like, are you like, you can set up that conversation of, hey, like, I just want to be able to vent about some stuff stuff versus like, hey, I need to share all this with you because I need you to find a solution for me. And that that second way can feel very overwhelming if it's just like, hey, I'm just like unloading all this stuff and I don't know what to do and I need your help. Also, I want to call the fact that very often, you know, if this is a male female dynamic where like this is the woman talking about sharing a bunch of the load to her male partner. Men, men's brains very often are wired to be, to be very like, fix it oriented. So when we hear people describing what sounds like a problem, especially if it's someone we love and care about, we jump into fix it mode. So I can understand how if you are sharing something and I'm like, oh, my God, I have to fix this. But it's so much. And then now I'm totally overwhelmed. Like, yeah, that's not a great way to share it. But if it's just like, hey, I want to be able to talk about this because, like, like, I just need to be able to vent about some of these things that are going on right now. I'm not looking for us to figure out a solution immediately. Maybe over time, we could figure out ways to balance this a little bit. But this is not like we're having this conversation right now, and we have to come to a solution. I think that could help a lot. All right, and the last question is, whenever we try to talk about this, my partner always says, but you're so much better at this stuff.

Oh, boy. Okay, we want to direct you straight on over to episode 35. Fine, I'll just do it myself. The danger of weaponized incompetence. So that episode goes all into this type of dynamic. It talks about how we get better at this stuff because we are expected to do these things and have all of the experience of doing them over and over again. But just because that. That's the way it has been doesn't mean that's the right way or needs to continue going forward. It's a shitty excuse for your partner to give like, they're an adult. They can learn how to load the dishwasher correctly. They can learn how to make a little to do list on their notes app. These things are like, you know, they're learnable. You learned them. If you're the person who's carrying the majority of the mental load, you learned them. Your partner can learn them too.

Yeah. So, I mean, here's the thing, though, is, like, if your partner is saying this and you're like, oh, God, yeah, I am better at them. And then you're like, oh, my God, well, maybe I can't let them do it because they're going to suck at it. That's maybe a sign that you've got a lot of perfectionism creeping in. Because instead, what you could say is, yeah, right now, I am better at this stuff, and I still would love for you to do this. And, you know, it's okay. And it could be either it's okay that it doesn't get done as. As good as I do it, or it could be like, you will get better at it. This is, you know, this is the standard that this needs to be done up to. And I'm happy to help you, help train you on how I do that, to get it to that standard. But I think you gotta let this person struggle a bit with it. That's the only way that we learn.

And I will also mention there are things that we are each genuinely better at. And whether that's because we've had the experience, it's something we enjoy more, or just there's some natural talent for loading the dishwasher. But part of our mental load guide, which, again, we will link to that in the show. Notes. Notes for you. But part of that guide is like, yeah, it's fine if there are certain things that you want to continue doing because you are better at them, you don't mind doing them, you like them done in a certain way, and you're willing to take on that load. So it's not like everybody has to start from zero. And we've, you know, figured out how to divide it exactly evenly. But again, the idea is that this can't be used as an excuse. Your partner can't weasel their way out of mental load, out of responsibility, responsibilities, because they haven't been doing it up until this point.

All right, well, that's it for today's episode of Pillow Talks. Thank you so much for listening. Join us again next week when we talk about things that go bump or bang in the night.

Mysterious title.

Oh, well, the sea. I told you that next week would be a perfect episode for all those big loads. Those loads that go bang or bump. Do. Does a big load go bing or bump?

You tell me.

I guess it. I don't know. Guess it depends.

Now you're into the load jokes.

I mean, this is the worst. We're done with this episode, so, you know, bring that load on.

I don't have a load for you.

A load of laundry, maybe.

Oh, wow. Okay, we gotta go.

Bye. All right. See you next week. Bye, Sam.