EPISODE 98: Dead Bedrooms: We Coach One Couple Through Resuscitating Their Sex Life

There is literally nothing worse than being in a relationship, but feeling lonely. Like I feel lonelier in a relationship than I would if I was actually on my own. Hello and welcome to the Pillow Talks podcast. We're your hosts, Vanessa and Xander Marin. I'm a sex Therapist with over 20.

Years of experience and I'm just a regular dude. We share the ups and downs in our relationship while giving you step by step techniques for improving your make sure.

You subscribe for your weekly double date full of totally doable sex tips, practical relationship advice, hilarious and honest stories of what really goes on behind closed bedroom doors, and so much more. It's the sex education you wish you'd had. Thanks to zocdoc for supporting Pillow Talks. Zocdoc is the only free app that lets you find and book doctors who are patient reviewed, take your insurance, are available when you need them, and treat almost every condition under the sun. Go to to Zocdoc.com pillow and download the Zocdoc app to sign up for free and book a top rated doctor. We are just gonna jump into it today. No funny intros for this topic because we're talking about something really serious today. Dead bedrooms. If you've never heard of this term, it's an interesting concept because there's no clear definition of it. But basically the idea behind a dead bedroom is that you have not had sex for a very long and there's this sense that you're not going to be having sex anytime soon either. Like you can't really see a way out of it.

It's an extreme, it's complicated situation.

Absolutely. And again, there is no clear definition. So there's nothing that says, you know, okay, if it's been six months or a year or longer, that's a dead bedroom. It's kind of this amorphous term that people self identify with. And to be clear, it's not a diagnosis either. Like this isn't a sex therapy term or a psychotherapy term. And actually a lot of therapists, myself included, don't really love the term because it's pretty dark. Right. Like dead bedroom. Nobody wants to admit to having a dead bedroom.

Well, and also, you're not dead. No one is actually dead.

No one's actually dead. And I think one of the reasons why I don't like the term dead bedroom is because it does imply a sense of permanence. Like.

Yeah. Or like finality.

Yeah. And it's never coming back to life.

Yeah. I mean, yeah, things that die don't come back.

And we were just having a conversation, Xander and I. Like, off camera, off the record, off mic. I don't know. Before we started recording. I don't know how to say that. Before we started recording, we were talking a little bit about the connection between dead bedrooms and dry spells. Like, these are two different terms that get used in different situations and there is a lot of overlap. Like, in both of them, you're not having sex for a long time. Xander was thinking, like, maybe dry spell feels like a shorter or a smaller thing, whereas dead bedroom might feel like a little bit heavier or longer.

Well, yeah, What I was thinking now is that maybe what it is, is, you know, early on you might identify what's going on as a dry spell. You know, oh, it's been a couple weeks. Oh, it's been a month or two. Like, this is the dry spell. And then as things continue, it's like, huh, maybe this is more than that.

Yeah. I think dry spell for most people feels less intense. It feels more temporary. Maybe there's a bit more hope of like, yeah, we just gotta get out of this dry spell.

Yeah. I mean, most people talk about dry spells, you know, as a common occurrence. Like, most people be like, oh, yeah, I've been in a dry spell before. You don't hear a lot of people being like, oh, yeah, I had a dead bedroom for a while. Like, it's a less commonly heard term. However, it is a very well known term amongst, you know, a lot of people who identify as being in that situation.

There's not a lot of research that's done on dead bedrooms, again, because it's not really a standardized definition. But we polled our Instagram audience and 93% of people said that they have had a dry spell at some point or another. And we also asked, how long did the dry spell last? 15% of people said 6 to 11 months. And 18% of people said over a year.

So I assume everyone else was. Was less than that.

Yeah, less than that. These were like our two longest time frames. So again, it's, you know, people are going to self identify. Does it feel more like a dry spell? Does it feel more like a dead bedroom? But, you know, that's. What is that? 33% of people having, like, a pretty significant period of time where they weren't having sex.

I see you doing that mental math.

I know, I did that really fast. We were just talking.

I was just thinking about this.

Over the weekend, we did a Spill It Saturdays about what's the funniest thing that has turned you on. And someone said, when my partner does math in his head, oh, baby turned on.

We're getting into inappropriate territory for this episode. But, no, I mean, I think it's. It's good to bring a little bit of laughter. Laughter always help.

I agree. So in this episode, we decided to do something really different from what we normally do. We put out a call to our Instagram audience, and we said, if you are experiencing what you feel like is a dead bedroom, tell us your story. And we wanted to pick one story to dive really deep into. So obviously not a therapy session, but kind of those same sort of vibes that we could really take a look at all of the different dynamics that are coming up, share some thoughts, some ideas, some resources. So we hope that it feels interesting to you to hear this story. And this is a really heartbreaking story, but the woman also describes it in a really. I don't know, there's a lot of poeticism to the way that she writes this. I think a lot of people are going to resonate. Even if it doesn't feel like exactly your situation. There are probably pieces of this that you can relate with. So I think it'll be interesting to have this whole episode dedicated to this one story. And also that our advice, the tips that we're going to give as we share the story will be able to apply to a lot of couples.

So this episode, the format is going to be a little different, but first, we're going to do something that is not different at all. And that's our review of the week. How do you like that transition, Vanessa?

Great.

Great, y'.

All.

This MF in podcast. Well, this review already doesn't fit the vibe of the rest of the podcast, and that's okay, because this is basically a commercial break for ourselves. Obsessed in a very healthy way. Wink. Tongue out wink. I have learned so much.

That's what you're gonna call that emoji?

What do you call that?

Tongue out wink.

No, I mean, I'm sorry, I was saying wink, but then I meant tongue out wing. So it's just tongue out wing.

Oh, tongue out wing.

Tongue out wink out.

Like cute, flirty crazy.

Cute, flirty crazy in a healthy way. Cute, flirty crazy. I have learned so much about myself and how to be the healthiest version of my through tuning in each week and every week to listen to Vanessa and Xander, forever grateful for their vulnerability and leading by example. Although I must say, my favorite part is witnessing the love they share for each other, hearing the way Xander makes Vanessa full Body laugh. Every episode brings so much joy to my days. Oh, God. What is this? This it like this emoji, It's a little blurry and it's small, but what is it? Is it like doe eyes or something?

Oh, wow. This is really bringing me back to the early days of the podcast.

Or is that like long eyelashes?

I can't quite see it.

I gotta hear. I'm trying to zoom in. Oh, God. I keep. I zoom in, but then it resizes.

We used to do this emoji game, like try to stump Xander with emojis. These are two very common emojis that. Have you stumped?

No, I got the first one. But what is that? What would you say this is?

This is like eyes tearing up. Emoji.

Eyes tearing up. Okay.

Yeah, like, it's something that. It's positive, it's cute, but it's also like, oh, my God.

Okay, I see it now. I see it now.

That's what it is. It's. Oh, my God, oh, my God emoji.

In my defense, it's a little blurry. And also my microphone is like kind of in the way of the screenshot of this review of the week. So this.

This emoji is a very accurate description of how I feel hearing this review. That makes me feel so nice. And you do make me full body laugh every episode. It's one of my favorite things about you.

Oh, you're welcome. Will I. This episode, we. I don't know, we talked about trying not to, so we'll see.

Well, thank you so much for this review. It really goes such a long way in helping Pillow Talks More couples Help more couples. And as our little way of saying thank you, what we do is once you leave a review for the podcast in Apple Podcasts, and if you're on our page, like the Pillow Talks page in Apple Podcasts, you just have to scroll to the bottom and that's where you find the place to leave reviews. So if you leave that review, you will be entered into a giveaway every week going forward. And if you hear your review read, you can reach out to us@infovm therapy.com let us know the username that you submitted the review, and you will win your choice of four or five different masterclasses. So that's just our little way of saying thank you for helping the podcast grow. Okay, so let's get into it. Like I mentioned before, we put out this call on Instagram, we set up an anonymous form where people could submit.

Their stories because they definitely couldn't fit in a question box on Instagram.

And we said, specifically, you know, please share the most details that you can, because the more details we have, the better we're able to answer. And, you know, go into your sit situation. We got hundreds of submissions. Like, we were totally blown away by how many people wanted to. And we thought, honestly, like, we thought by us saying, like, we're only going to be considering ones that are very detailed, like, long, descriptive, exactly what's going on, what you've tried to do to fix it, what your partner has said. Like, we thought that this would really weed people out because that's a lot of effort to share that much detail about your story. Right. So I was thinking we'd get like, like 20 maybe. And it was literally hundreds.

Wow.

Like, we stopped counting after 200.

Well, to everyone who submitted, then, thank you so much. I know it takes so much vulnerability to share that with us. And. And, you know, I'm so sorry that we are not able to cover every single one of those. You know, what I will say is, hopefully there was some value for you in writing it out. You know, I think, you know, it's why. It's why journaling works. Like, I think that there. There's a power in just writing it out. Often when we write something out that that's been going on for a long time, we're able to see it in a different way. We're able to kind of examine the issue with a different lens. And often writing it out can be a great first step in taking some action or having some aha. Moments that will help spur some change.

I love that. I think that's actually a really great tip. Before we even get into the story that we picked. Yeah, I think exactly what you're saying is so right. So if you are experiencing this, maybe taking the time to write out a timeline of, you know, what has happened, what do you think has contributed to this? What were the major milestones along the way? And then some of the other questions that we asked were, you know, what does this feel like for you to be experiencing this? What have you tried to do to fix it? What has your partner said? What is their perspective about it? So also, that piece of putting yourself in your partner's shoes and seeing, like, what might that. Obviously you're not going to know because you're not your partner, but what might this be like for your partner can be really helpful too. But, you know, so many people, when they submitted the stories, they said at the end, like, even if I Don't get picked. This actually has been really therapeutic for me to write it all out and to confront it, too, because a lot of us are just carrying this pain and this heaviness around and not wanting to fully address it. But when we do bring our stories out to the light of day and even just acknowledge them for ourselves, it's healing. So get the journal out. Start typing. Start writing. Like, writing.

You can't send it to anyone.

Yeah. Oh, no, just for yourself. Tell yourself, I'm not going to send it to anybody. This is just for myself. This is my opportunity to examine what's going on and how I got here and what I might be able to do to get out of this position. So we did comb through all the stories, and there were a lot of common themes that came up that people gave or, you know, why they're experiencing dead bedrooms. So we wanted to run through some of those in the hopes that you might see your own story in this and recognize, like, oh, I'm not the only one going through that. I'm not alone. So one of the most common responses was kids. So many couples said after having kids that they really, really struggled to get their sex life back on track. So people mentioned postpartum issues. There were a lot of discussions about breastfeeding and the way that it, you know, I think childbirth and breastfeeding and pregnancy in and of itself can really disconnect you from your own body and make you feel like it doesn't belong to you anymore.

And it can be something, I think, that can come as a very unexpected surprise to yourself as you're experiencing. That is like, oh, you know, just the assumption or the expectation that, oh, yeah, things will just get back to normal soon. And then it's like, oh, shit, like, nobody really told me that my body wasn't going to feel like my own. Nobody prepared me for the fact that, you know, breastfeeding was going to, you know, know, take this. This body part that, you know, I used to love. Like, offline, basically.

Yeah.

Anything beyond feeding.

Yeah. There were also logistical things people said. You know, just pure exhaustion, lack of time, lack of privacy. And another huge topic within the realm of kids was trying to conceive, like, feeling like your journey of trying to conceive sucked all of the joy and the fun and the connection out of sex. So here was a classic example of this. Someone wrote, sex became very clinical and not at all enjoyable. It was simply to get the job done. So I just wanted to point out we do have an episode specifically about this, how to keep stress low and pleasure high when you're trying to conceive. That's episode 70, so make sure to check that out if that's something that you may have been dealing with. And also we have a course for all of this. It's called milfs, dilfs and Rediscovering intimacy for parents. And it goes into exactly what we just talked about and specific practical ways to reconnect, to reignite the spark to feel like partners again and not just parents. So we'll put a link to that in the show notes too.

Other common themes in Dead Bedroom stories were infidelity, insecurity about your body. And we have a podcast episode specifically about that, which you can definitely check out now. Episode 12, how to Let your partner love your body, even if you don't. Being afraid to talk about sex. And you know, that's, that's such a common one. I think that is sort of a, a baseline theme amongst all these Dead Bedroom stories is, you know, to some degree one or both partners having some, some fear or hang ups or whatever it is when it comes to talking about sex or just acknowledging the situation that we're in. And, and that's why we wrote our book, book Sex Talks, because talking about sex is just one of those basic but very necessary things that most of us feel really awkward about, understandably. And definitely check out Sex Talks if you haven't, because, yeah, I think that should just be required reading for everyone, if I can say so myself about my own book. And then also constant rejection from one partner. I know rejection can take a toll on anybody. And we have a podcast episode about that as well, which is episode 13, how to handle reject when your partner says no to sex.

People also mentioned mismatched sex drives, feeling more like roommates. And again, another episode we have 64, are you roommates or romantic partners? Illness like mental illness or physical illness or even injuries as well, libido changes due to taking medications and no emotional intimacy. Emotional intimacy was a really, really big one that came up. And so we also have an episode 38, you want connection, your partner wants. Want sex. Who comes first?

And then finally we just wanted to share this, this little quote which felt like a very common theme that came up amongst so many of these stories, which was just, I think we just got used to not having sex and now we have a hard time reconnecting.

So let's get into this story. Okay, first we have a little bit of the setup here. She writes, it's been three Years, four, five. I'm not even sure, to be honest. Honest, in those years, we've only had sex a handful of times. And when I say handful, I mean I can count them on my hands. 12 years together. Female, male. I'm the female. Met in our early 20s.

So I'm just doing the math here. Quickly in my head. They've been together 12 years. So it sounds like then they had some number of years in the beginning of their relationship where they wouldn't consider it a dead bedroom. They. They must have been having some amount of sex with some amount of regularity, it sounds like. And then over the past, somewhere, three to five years, they've. They've been in the state that they're in now.

Yeah.

What I do know is how damn lonely it is. How you know, it, causes it. Stress, family issues, work schedule, health. A sex accident slash embarrassing encounter with each other that I can just never move beyond without said embarrassment, but don't know how to fix it. How isolating it is to want to talk about it, but neither of you have the willpower and knowledge to fix it. How much anger there is when you realize that it's not normal, even though you've been taught your entire life that not talking about sex is in fact normal. The shame of how much you miss sex but can't admit it. Our story is probably like many others.

This is exactly what I mean about, like, how poetic the writing is. I mean, it's just. Yeah, it's heartbreaking to read it. And I think so many people will resonate with that. All that tension that she talks about. So one of the first things that jumps right out at me is this description of how lonely it feels, how isolating it feels. And, you know, the, like, just the reality of not having sex, that can be painful and difficult in and of itself. But I think this is the real killer is that sense that you are alone in dealing with it. Like you both know what's going on. You're not hiding it from each other. There are no secrets, but you're not openly talking about it. And I think this is a theme that we will keep coming back to as we read more and more of the story of. You know, the main piece of advice we have is like, you have to talk about it and we'll talk about how to talk about it, because she already knows that they should be talking about it, but they need to address that feeling of loneliness. Like there is literally nothing worse than being in a relationship. But feeling lonely, like I feel lonelier in a relationship than I would if I was actually on my own.

Yeah. I mean, it's like. Yeah, like, you feel lonely even though there's literally somebody next to you, and. And, yeah, that's so hard because, I mean, kind of at a basic level, it's why we get into relationships is specifically to not be lonely.

Yeah.

Like, I think that's one of the core reasons that we generally like to partner up. I know that's. I know that's what it's like for me. Absolutely. I mean, and on top of that, you know, there's also, you know, the part that she mentions about, you know, the shame of how much. Of how much she misses sex, but then can't admit it. And, you know, I think that's sort of. That's. That's the other part of, like, the loneliness. And, you know, struggling to really acknowledge or verbalize the loneliness is. Is. You know, it sounds like there is really a part of her that really is missing the sex. You know, I do wonder just what was it like for her writing this down? Because she's saying. She's saying that she can't admit that she misses sex, and she's also writing here that she does miss sex. So I wonder what that, you know, just that act of writing it down. Like, you did say you miss sex, so you are admitting it on some level there. And, you know, I wonder if you can kind of continue with that. That momentum a bit. Because just being able. Being able to just say, even if it's just to yourself verbally, I miss sex. I mean, that. I think that's a great way to at least to spur a little bit of action that helps you go, oh, yes, I miss sex. I want sex. That gives me permission to then take some steps towards maybe making some changes in my relationship.

That's why I think writing this out can be so powerful, is that it makes you get in touch with what are the actual feelings that are coming up for you. Because working on your sex life, bringing your dead bedroom back to life, it takes work. It takes vulnerability. It takes effort. It's hard. Like, we are not here to sugarcoat it and be like, here are the three simple steps to take to start having sex. Sex again. But I think when we really get in touch with our emotions, like, what does it really feel like to be in the place that you're at now? That can be very painful and also very motivating. Like, there's some quote about how, you know, a lot of us don't take action until the pain of inaction outweighs the fear of taking action. So I think if you. I got that. Right, Right.

I think. I mean, that sounds right to me. We're not actually quoting anyone because that was. Was definitely not a proper. A proper quote that you did. But so. But yeah, that's.

I mean, that's what I think this is all about is there's, you know, she's realizing what the pain of the inaction is. She is afraid to take action. She's scared. She doesn't know what to do or how to do it. But I think she's also realizing, like, the pain of just staying in this place and not doing anything. It's too much.

Oh, yeah, definitely. And I, you know, I think that, you know, the way that she wrote this out, it's like, you know, once you've written this out, you're like, oh, okay, I'm. I'm feeling a ton of loneliness. I'm feeling a ton of embarrassment. I'm feeling a ton of anger. You know, I'm feeling all of these things. And once you're able to tease those out, then you can start really realizing, oh, like, this is the pain of inaction. I know, for me, on the flip side, if I am feeling all of those very heavy, intense emotions at once, it's very hard to tease them out. Like, if. If I'm not talking about it, if I'm not verbalizing it, if I'm not writing it down, if I'm not in therapy or whatever. If you have, like four or five really intense emotions going on, at least for me, I just feel. I just feel overwhelmed. I feel incapacitated. You know, I don't feel like, oh, yeah, I can just rattle off. Here are the five emotions that are going on. Like, I literally feel like I'm being dragged down. And I think that's what probably most people in these situations feel like. And it's like, you can't really put your finger on what exactly is going on because you're feeling so many things at once. So, you know, in this case, being able to identify a lot of those core emotions that are going on is going to help you, because then you're like, okay, this what I'm feeling right now, this is the anger. Okay, that. That's the loneliness. And then you can really start to be like, do I actually want to continue living with all of these things regularly in my life versus being like, oh, I feel like I am, like, literally being dragged underwater by this weight. But I don't know what the weight is, and, like, I can't do anything about it. So, yeah, definitely, Definitely. I'm very happy this person was able to write that all down. I hope just that exercise was powerful enough.

Yeah. Okay, two quick things, and then we're going to move on to the next paragraph because there's still so much of this story to share with you. I do think there is something very powerful about identifying the reasons why you got to this place. And she lists them out. Stress, family issue, work schedule, all this stuff. Like, it's just very easy when you're in a dead bedroom to feel this sense of hopelessness and to feel scared about how you got there. But the reality is, like, there are always identifiable reasons. And yes, it is scary when you don't know how to go about fixing those. But I do think there is a healing power in acknowledging, like, it makes sense why we got here. If we plucked two random people, like a random couple off the street and plopped them into our life circumstance, they would probably end up with a dead bedroom, too. So, you know, if you can take that step in your own situation of identifying, like, these are some of the causes that probably led to that, I think there's something powerful in that.

But what I do want to say about that, though, is that it's powerful to identify them. So at least you can. You can have the comfort of being like, okay, you know, this is what's going on. It's not. It's not that I'm a horrible person or my partner's a horrible person, or we're not a good match for each other, but I think what you have to be careful of is not going to the place of, okay, well, these. This is the list of 10 things that cause this. The only way for this to ever get better is if these ten things go away. I think that's the mistake a lot of people make. They go, okay, well, it's stress, family issues, work schedule, health. So we're just screwed unless we can solve all those issues. And because the reality is you're not going to be able to solve all those issues at once. Maybe not ever. And the reality is that even with all those issues, you can have an active sex life, you can have a strong relationship. So I think it's important to identify them, but it's not that those are the things that are keeping you from having it anymore. There's more to it than that.

Yeah, I totally agree with that. And then the last thing I wanted to say about it is I just want to validate a lot of the things that she says in this. Like, you know, realizing that you've been taught your entire life that not talking about sex is normal. Like, that's why we wrote sex talks. It's like we have experienced the pain of this shitty socialization ourselves, and we wanted to show couples that talking about sex is normal. It is healthy. It's such a great thing that everybody needs to be doing. And also, like, you kind of said this a little bit ago, Xander, but just validating, like, it's okay to miss sex. It's. It's totally okay to miss sex. So obviously me just saying that isn't going to immediately make everything okay, but sometimes I see things and I just, like, I just want to give a little bit of validation in that moment.

Also, the one last little thing I want to say is, you know, she doesn't say what the, the sex accident or the embarrassing encounter was. You know, I'm curious what that is. You know, I think that if that's something that you keep coming back to as one incident that was traumatizing or super embarrassing, you can't stop thinking about it. I would just make a plug for or doing some individual therapy or if it was an issue just really between the two of you that you're both struggling with, maybe some couples therapy, just specifically to talk about that issue. Because, you know, I can see how if it feels like, oh, this one big thing happened, I can't stop thinking about it. That could just feel like a big blockage. But, you know, being able to talk about that with an objective third party can be such a helpful way to get through that. Because I promise you, we all have. We all have sex accidents. We all have embarrassing encounters. You are not the only one. And when you don't talk about it, more and more time goes by and you go, oh my God, I must be the only one that this has ever happened to.

And oh my God, we should do a whole sex accidents episode.

Yeah, that's a great idea.

Process and overcome your sex accidents. We've. We've all been there. Okay, next paragraph is, I grew up in the 90s, 2000s, when you were either a or a prude. Nothing in between.

I remember those times.

Oh yes. Sex was never taught as healthy, but just something that gets you pregnant. I am super self conscious about my body, even after losing a lot of weight. My husband was raised religious and I assume taught the same shame. So just wanted to point out, we mentioned already that episode about body image. That's a Great one to check out. And then we also have episode 65, how to overcome sexual shame with our seven step process. So I think that would be a great episode for both of these people to listen to. So, you know, for them to be able to process that shame in the way that it gets in the way of their sex life.

Oh, yeah, 100%. Especially because what I see, you know, she wrote here that, you know, she knows that her husband was raised in a religious way. And then she says, I assume, taught the same shame. See, she doesn't know. So that means they have never talked about this before.

Yeah.

And. And that that could be the starting place here is just talking about that. I think so many people go, oh, well, I can't talk about any other aspect of our sex lives when we are in a dry spell, when we are in the midst of a dead bedroom, because by doing so, that would somehow acknowledge that we are not having sex. Like, so, like, you feel so stuck. Like, okay, well, we're not having sex, so then we definitely can't talk about any other aspect of sex. But like Vanessa said at the very beginning, like, look, no one is fooling anyone that you're about the fact that you're not having sex. If it's been years, you both know it.

Yeah. So maybe just listen to that episode out loud while your partner's around, or introduce them. Like, hey, I listened to this episode. It just got me thinking. So, like Xander was saying, you're not jumping straight into, hey, we need to resolve our dead bedroom issue. You're talking about different aspect of your sex life, but one where you can connect with each other, can have empathy with each other. You know, I think it's just so powerful. Also, we also have episode eight, has Purity culture harmed your sex Life? How to overcome religious Shame. So that could be another great one to listen to as well.

Yeah, I mean, the more I'm thinking about it, the more I'm thinking that this is a great place to start. Because honestly, these. This trying to tackle the more formative kind of sexual hangups that you have is going to make the getting out of the current situation that you're in so much easier. Because you could say, well, it's in the past, it wasn't really that bad. That's what most people say. But then the reality is, okay, you start doing some work, you kind of are pushing yourself to like, okay, let's get intimate again. That I promise you. I guarantee you, all those hang ups, they're going to come right back. They're going to come right back and it's going to feel like they're just pushing you right back into the place that you are in. And so, yeah, it's not like, oh God, now I have to do all this extra work and address all this, you know, old stuff that I have. It's addressing that old stuff is really going to jump start your progress in getting out of it. I think that's the mistake that people make. It's like, oh, Well, I got 20 things going on. I just want to focus on the 19th and the 20th thing to try to get me out of this rather than the things at the start. But if you start at the things at the start, you're probably barely going to even have to touch the stuff at the end. Like you're just going to power through it.

Before we go any further, let's tell you a little bit more about ZocDoc. So I think we can all agree that getting proper medical care can be. Be incredibly frustrating sometimes. I mean, you had a recent experience with this yourself, didn't you?

Oh, yeah, no. Recently I needed to go in to see a doctor quickly. I had noticed a little bump in my arm. I wasn't sure exactly what was going on. And yeah, so like I went into a place that had like a walk in clinic that day. So I was just getting placed with a random doctor and it, even though the place didn't seem very busy, like I got in really quick. The doctor came in and it was like less than two minutes with the doctor. It felt so rushed and, you know, I ended up kind of walking away feeling not so great. It was basically like, cool, if it doesn't go away in two weeks, come back. And I was like, I don't feel like this situation is very settled, but the doctor is like clearly standing up and walking out of the room. So what am I gonna do? So, you know, I do wish, looking back, I had known about Zocdoc then and could have looked up someone, found someone great who maybe would have spent a little more than two minutes with me.

Yeah, somebody that just made you feel more comfortable, made you feel like they actually cared about you. So I think that's what's really great about ZocDoc. It's a free app, but it lets you find and book doctors who are patient reviewed so you can hear other people's stories and make sure other people have been having good experiences with this person. You can also make sure they take your insurance, are available when you need that appointment and you can also find doctors that treat almost every condition under the sun. So arm lumps, whatever else it is that you're dealing with, there's probably someone on Zocdoc for you. So you can go to zocdoc.com pillow and download the Zocdoc app for free. Then find and book a top rated doctor today. A lot of them are available within 24 hours. That is Zocdoc.com pillow Zocdoc.com pillow pillow.

All right, continuing on with the story. We just always assumed sex is like the movies. After five years, we had zero tools for keeping our intimacy alive, much less how to have enjoyable sex. He by no fault of his own because even I don't know, didn't realize that women don't have orgasms from piv, that's penis in vagina. Very often I didn't know how to advocate for myself or how to embrace saying what felt good and what didn't. I just stayed quiet and told myself, PIV is sex and that's all that matters. I'm broken since I can't orgasm with him, so I just have to fake it. That led to resentment. The sex started dying after that and I majorly blamed myself for a long, long time.

Okay, there are so many dynamics here for male female relationships.

We're getting into the good stuff here now.

Oh yeah, that really lead into why? Disconnection, resentment, lack of, of pleasure. I mean, so first of all, she points out the whole like, you know, oh, sex is supposed to be like it is in the movies. We write in sex talks about, I like to call it the fucking fairy tale about, you know, how we see sex portrayed in the movies where even if you understand rationally, like okay, that's a TV show or it's movies, I know that that's not what sex really looks like when you see these scenes repeated over and over and over again like of course you're going to internalize, like, oh, but that's really what it should look like. Or it would be really nice if that's what it would look like. And in particular how female pleasure is portrayed. Like we only ever see intercourse happening on those sex scenes.

Oh yeah. And she, and she comes in like 30 seconds or less, right?

Yeah, just from the old PNV couple pumps. Uh huh. And so I think that, you know, so many women out there are feeling broken, feeling like something is wrong with them for not, not only not orgasming from intercourse, but not enjoying it that much. Like I remember we did a poll recently On Instagram, asking women, like, from a pure pleasure standpoint, is intercourse your favorite sexual activity? And 91% of women said no. So it's like, you know, 91% of women saying it's not their favorite activity, and yet there's so many of them of us feeling like we're broken.

Yeah, 91.

And loving it.

91% of women are not broken.

Yeah, absolutely not. And so I think that there's. You know, when you realize pnv sex is not all that matters, that you're not broken because you're not orgasming from two pumps of it, then there absolutely is this anger that can kick in, this sense of, like, I've been lied to. I've been cheated. And it's not like you're blaming your partner for, like, you know, you did this. How dare you? But it is very easy for that frustration, that anger to turn into resentment towards your partner when the reality is your partner watched those exact same scenes growing up. They internalize the same beliefs as well. So it's like we're both suffering from all this shitty socialization, all these shitty messages that we got, but it's very easy for us to. Especially for women, for us to feel resentful towards our partner.

Oh, yeah, absolutely. And, I mean, I think that the way out of this is, you know, is needing to have those conversations together about what is it that women really need to feel good in bed? What are all the things that we've taken from all these movies and sex scenes and books and gossip where we're really just not set up for success, and how can we be a team in overcoming this together? And I think that that's where the main disconnect is, is when you don't talk about it, of course, you have anger about it, and you end up taking that anger out on your partner. And I think the key is, is realizing your partner is. The deck has been similarly stacked against your partner. Your partner very likely thinks they're doing the right thing. They're just. They're trying to do their best. They're trying to perform the way that they. They see it portrayed. And so, yeah, you got to tackle this issue together. And to tackle this issue together, you got to acknowledge it, you got to talk about it. You got to get some resources together for you to figure out what is it that we really need to do this right?

So that's what I mean. Sex talks is great for this because we lay out in the chapter, you know, here's how female pleasure and orgasm really Work and show you, like, how to have a conversation about it where you're talking about it more objectively in the sense of, like, oh, wow, wow. This is what I learned from TV and the movies. How it was supposed to work. But, like, this is how it actually works. You can also check out episode 77, everything you ever wanted to know about orgasms. That covers some of the same content in a different way. But it could be another episode to listen to, maybe in the background or where you start having this more objective conversation of, like, wow, I didn't realize that we are taught all this misinformation, all of these myths about how sex is supposed to work. So again, you're talking about it more in this objective sense rather than like, like, wow, we, you know, you are such a jerk that you never paid attention to my. You know, you're not talking about your own relationship. That can make it easier to open up the conversation. And I think another tip for this couple for getting back into the saddle for starting to have sex again is to start with anything but intercourse. I would even, like, take intercourse off the table for, oh, yeah, weeks, months even.

Yeah. Like a long time. Because you got to teach. You got to teach yourself and your partner how to really bring you both pleasure.

Yeah. So using your hands and your mouths on each other, using toys, maybe mutual masturbation. We also have an episode about that. So there's so many other things that you guys can do together. And when you're coming out of a dry spell or a dead bedroom situation, if you're, you know, if you have intercourse in your relationship, often the idea of, like, having to have intercourse again can feel very big. Like, it's like, oh, my God, we're going from zero to 60 overnight. So we do not recommend that. Or, like, ease your way back into it. Like, you don't have to immediately have intercourse. So it may even be all you're doing for a little while is just making out or just cuddling or just being side by side as you guys are masturbating. Like, those things can feel a lot less intimidating than jumping straight back into the intercourse.

Oh, yeah. Because I think a lot of people are in this situation and are feeling super intimidated by the prospect of having sex because it's been so long. They have all that inertia, like, going against them in the opposite way because the idea of sex is still on the table even though you haven't had it for so long. You start to think, oh, well, then maybe I should avoid that intimacy. Like, Making out or touching or, you know, manual or oral sex. Because it will probably lead to intercourse, which is the thing that I've built up to be this big, you know, we've built up to this big scary thing that's sort of causing this issue. And so, yeah, I mean, it can be this like. Like a cycle. I was gonna say a virtuous cycle. The opposite of a virtuous cycle where, you know, it's like you avoid the intimacy because it might lead to. Lead to this thing that feels bad. And then therefore, of course, you're not having the intercourse and then you are staying in the place where you're at. The other thing that I wanted to say about this is I wonder if the, you know, if the person writing this. I think that there might be a little bit of work that could be done on having some understanding and some self forgiveness. Because she's written a lot of things, you know, that piv sex is all that matters. She's the one that's broken because she can't orgasm. And so then she just has to fake it. And so I think, you know, if she's been doing this for years, if you've been telling yourself you're broken for years, that takes a toll on your emotional well being. You know, if you are faking it, I think that there can be, you know, some amount of. You don't feel good about that. You feel like you have to do it, but you don't feel proud of it, so you feel embarrassed about it. It, you know, and that can, Then, you know, that can feed into that resentment where, you know, instead of taking it out on yourself, you take it out on your partner. And so I, I wonder, you know, if there can just be some work on really trying to be like, hey, you know, I understand why I did this. I was, I was doing the very best I could with the hand that I was dealt. And can you have some forgiveness for yourself for the ways that you hurt yourself? Because I think that, you know, without that it's. It can be really hard to move forward.

Okay, let's get into the next paragraph. We've never discussed what we like and don't like. I've read a few books recently, including Sex Talks, and it's made me realize how much I've been missing in terms of knowledge on this subject. I want to start my sexual revolution and start it with him. But there's so much damn shame around the fact that I let this situation, we let this situation get to this point.

Oh, I mean, this, this gets back to what I was just saying.

She's.

This is really the way that she wrote this is very interesting. I let this situation. Then she puts in parentheses, we let this situation. So it's like there's part of her that knows, yeah, it's both of us. But she led with, I let this situation. I think there's a part of her that just purely blames herself for where they are. And yeah, and I can understand that.

Self forgiveness is going to be a big part of the journey for her. And, and I do think it's so important to recognize, like, these were external things that led you to approach your sex life this way. All the crappy sex scenes that you saw, all the crappy things that you were taught, those were the reasons that you prioritized pnv that you felt like something was wrong with you and broken. It's not some fatal character. Flawless. Like so many women, so many people are. You're in your exact situation.

So if you, you've been in this situation.

Yeah, I've been in this situation. Oh my God.

Yeah, I'm sure I've been on the receiving end of this situation.

Yeah. So to recognize, like, this isn't because I'm a horrible person or something's horribly wrong with me, like, I was set up for failure. And I think that's a big part of the self forgiveness. But I think this is also what she just wrote in this paragraph is such a great opportunity for conversation. So there's something inside of her that has shifted recently that she's like, she's read books and she's even come to this point where she's like, I want to start my sexual revolution. Like, that's amazing. We're so excited. Keep that momentum going. And it's beautiful to say, like, I want to start it with him.

So that's an opportunity.

It's a huge opportunity to share with him. Like, I don't know what came over me, or maybe there was a specific reason, but like, I just started reading these books and I started getting curious about my relationship with my body, my relationship with sex. And I realized, like, I want you to be a part of this with me. I want us to do this together.

Yeah. I mean, it's a, it's a rediscovering, like, you know, you're, you're acknowledging, hey, I've missed out on so much. I haven't had the knowledge. I've had this very limited view of what sex is, you know, for me and for what it Is for my partner. And I'm just starting to understand that there are so many options. There's so many possibilities. And so, yeah, like, yes, you are in the midst of a dead bedroom from the perspective of it being dead from having the very limited bad sex that you were having before. Now you have a huge opportunity to not even do that stuff again. Like, to literally reset and start from scratch. And can that be a fun and exciting opportunity?

Okay, and then let's address this last piece of it before we move on. Like, we've all had experiences where we have gotten ourselves to a certain point with something, and there's shame about that. How did I let this go on for so long? How did I not take action before? I've had plenty of examples, like, all areas of my life.

Yep, me too.

Where I have felt the shame around inaction. And we have a choice in these moments when we recognize that we've gotten ourselves to these places, we can let that shame continue and say, you know what? It's already been this long. I guess I just keep going. Or we can suck it up, we can forgive ourselves, and we can take a different action. We can take a different path. And I think it's a really valuable thought exercise to imagine what those two paths could look like. So imagine yourself just deciding, okay, I'm giving up. I let it get this far. I'm gonna let the shame win. I'm gonna continue this pattern. What would it look like to spend the rest of your life having given up saying the shame? One? I'm not gonna initiate any conversations. I'm not gonna try to bring our sex life back to life. I am gonna have a completely sexless marriage for the rest of my life. What would that really look like versus being able to say, you know what? This sucks. I hate that I got here. I wish I had taken action. We had taken action sooner. But it is what it is now. And I'm gonna decide to not waste another second and take action now. I can't go back in the past. I can't erase it. I can't have made a different decision to do it, you know, earlier. All I can do right now is just make that decision now, not waste another second. Second.

And I do want to acknowledge that that might feel overwhelming to be, like, how. How can I just make that decision overnight? And so I want to give one suggestion, because I've dealt with this myself at various points in time in my life of feeling a lot of shame, you know, feeling like, God, like, how. How could I Ever forgive myself for these things and then. And move on. So one suggestion which has worked really, really well for me, set aside forgiving yourself forever. Because that can feel like a really tall order if it's been years and years and years. Try this. Try asking yourself, could I. Could I try forgiving myself for one day? What would it be like for one day to allow myself to have forgiveness for these things? That's all you got to decide after that, that what that was like. Do you think that you could foresee being able to continue doing that? Because, honestly, at the end of the day, all this stuff is like a daily choice. Like, it's not like you can really ever say, okay, cool, I forgive myself permanently, and I can guarantee that I'll never feel this again, you know? But, yeah, like Vanessa said, it is a choice, and it really is a daily choice. So try that. Try as you're going to bed tonight night, think through, okay, okay, body. Okay, mind. Can I. Can I allow myself to be forgiven tomorrow? Let's just see what that's like. And I have a feeling that you'll wake up if you've given yourself permission for that. You're going to wake up feeling a hell of a lot better, see how it feels at the end of the day, and then be like, all right, I wonder if I could do that again tomorrow. Or, you know, maybe I could do that for another week or another month. Just see where that gets you.

I like it.

Okay, so continuing on with our story. He's a fan of spontaneous sex, and I have noted that sometimes it's better to have something to look forward to, But I get a yeah, maybe, and a shrug. He's not a bad person, though. I stand idle and go to sleep sad, frustrated, and feeling isolated, just like Vanessa noted she did in the book without ripping the band aid off to talk.

So I just want to make a quick note about this paragraph here. Like this. When you're in a dry spell or in a dead bedroom situation, going back to spontaneous sex is. It's not gonna happen.

Nope.

A thousand percent it's not gonna happen. You have to create a structured plan with each other. There has to be intentionality around sex. Like, we. We gotta do a separate episode about spontaneity. That is another huge myth that we are led to believe about our sex lives. But the idea that you can go from. From nothing and disconnection to just having this, like, spontaneous sex that happens out of nowhere, it's not realistic. Okay, let's move on to the next paragraph. We count on the infrequent date nights and some drinking to maybe not be tired enough or not have stomach cramps or get sucked into tv. Those lucky nights have been half assed sex that often ends in sorrys and no satisfaction. I read about other stories about dead bedrooms and go, gee, at least I know he loves me. But then I wonder, can you really have a relationship with this many years of broken sex? I've learned in my reading that it fosters intimacy. And yes, there's emotional and sexual connections and maybe we have some emotional down, but can two humans last this long without that sexual contact? That sends me into an am I in love with this person or are they just my roommate I'd give my life for? Sometimes I think we've both accepted this. We have stressful jobs and caring for a family member. We recognize the stress, the energy life takes. But sex and changing, it always takes a backseat. Okay, so another paragraph here that is just jam packed with so many things. So the first thing that jumps out for me is the emotional intimacy. And this is something that I think a lot of people underestimate. We think about, oh, we're in a dry spell, we're not having sex, we have a dead bedroom.

But.

But it's often the emotional intimacy that is as big, if not bigger than the lack of physical intimacy. So both types of intimacy are equally important. Like, we need emotional intimacy, we need physical intimacy for relationships to be healthy and to thrive. But I think a lot of people don't realize, like the impact of the emotional intimacy. So I think a great starting point for this couple is to focus on rebuilding that emotional intimacy. And again, this can feel like a gentler first step than like, okay, we haven't had sex in five years, come over here and let's have some pnv. Right? Like, so they're talking about infrequent date nights. Can we have frequent date nights? Yeah, can we commit to, we are going to have a date night every single week or twice a month, you know, whatever it is that feels doable for your schedule. But that's, I mean, and the conversation around that is a much easier one to initiate too. Like, hey, I miss you. I know life is so busy. I know we have a lot on our plates and you are important to me. Our relationship is important to me. And I want to be more active about carving out more time for us. So start simply start with what feels practical. Like, if even date night feels too overwhelming, can instead you say, hey, could we do five minutes a day? Where we put our phones down and we just talk, or we just. Just sit out on the porch and hold hands.

Yeah. Or maybe it's we play a game instead of watching a TV show for half an hour.

Exactly. There's always a way to start increasing the emotional intimacy in your relationship. And if you do it in those small and practical ways, you're going to get momentum going. You're going to start feeling closer to each other and want to keep going down this path.

And another thing that might help get these, you know, more frequent date nights going, you have to have a conversation about this. But just like we said, taking intercourse off the table, maybe even taking all sexual contact off the table for some amount of time. Because what I'm hearing, what I'm seeing in this writing is that right now they are counting on these infrequent date nights to hopefully lead to some sex that is not feeling very good for them. And so if the energy that's going into date night is, oh, well, we got to do the date night so that we can have the sex, because we miss the sex. We know it's bad for us to not be having the sex. But then when we do have the sex, it's not very good, and we maybe end up feeling even worse than we did before. Like, why the hell would you be excited about date night? Right? Like, that's what.

That's a really good point.

That's what I'm reading here. And you know, especially that it's like, oh, God, it's like, I don't want to have this date night. And then they're maybe drinking a little too much. And like, that's not really a good basis for. For solid emotional connection anyway. It's like, it's kind of like a big recipe for disaster. And it's like, yeah, you really need to have that restart. But yes, at the end of the day, it requires that basic acknowledgement. This is the situation that we are in. I know neither of us want to be here. We can't fix this overnight. But here's something that we can do. We can try to start having fun together. Let's take all. Let's take all the sexual stuff, stuff off the table for the next month and let's do, you know, weekly. Let's have a game night. Let's go out to dinner. Let's just try to have fun. Let's try to laugh. And then the next month, we can maybe consider adding something in.

Yeah, I love that idea because again, it's a way to Acknowledge what you guys are up against. So I think when we say something like, I know we have so much on our plates. We're taking care of this family member, we have this situation going on at work. It. It just takes the blame off of you guys versus, like, we never do anything anymore. Like, we never have date night. Like, that feels, of course, hostile and aggressive, but when you can put the blame on something else, that really lowers both of your defenses. It just feels like, you know, there's something else to blame that makes sense. And then there's also a way to pin the fun aspect of it. Like, we've had all these things on our plate. We just have not had any space for fun. But. But, like, I want to have fun with you again. Let's find some ways, even if it's just five minutes a day, you know, to bring some fun back into our lives. So I love that idea and that way of framing it. I also think maybe working on just having more positive communication between the two of them. So even if the idea of like five minutes a day, that's feeling overwhelming, can you take 10 seconds a day to just say something nice to your partner? Like, hey, I saw that you unloaded the dishwasher. I really appreciated that. Or that shirt looks really nice on you. Is that new? You know, just like little comments like that, when we can sprinkle those in throughout the day, that's another very simple but powerful way to increase emotional intimacy.

All right, next paragraph. I really don't think either of us know how to get out of this. I've started gently trying to talk about it, but I internalize everything he says. Says it always ends up making me sad, shameful, and rejected, even though I know deep down it shouldn't.

This is a tough paragraph because I wish we had some examples here. I don't know. Yeah. What is it that he says? And why is she internalizing it and taking it personally? So if you're listening, maybe send us a little follow up, let us know some examples.

I have an idea maybe of what this could be. I'm just a lot of inference here, here, but, you know, I. I can imagine if she is starting to talk about this gently and he. And I can put myself, you know, in his shoes as, as a man. There's, you know, probably some. A lot of feelings of shame around, like, hey, I'm supposed to be super. I'm supposed to be hypersexual as a man. I'm always supposed to want it. How the hell have I let us get into this situation. So there's a ton of shame.

Shame.

Her bringing up anything around sex could feel to him, like he's feeling defensive, maybe feeling like he needs to kind of rationalize what has happened. And there's a lot of awkwardness and embarrassment and shame. And so I can imagine that in response to any questions that she's asking or any topics that she's bringing up, he's having a lot of. Of awkward. He's saying awkward things, he's responding in embarrassing in ways or maybe kind of putting his foot in his mouth. I mean, I have been there myself. And so right now, she's taking that as, oh, well, he must just really not be into this or like, you know, she's internalizing, oh, well, he's being really weird about this. So I must have screwed up. I must have said something wrong. Yeah. And instead of that, you know, can you try to have some empathy where he might be coming from? He's having all that same shame and embarrassment and stuff as you. So maybe instead of bringing up those topics, just like, that's. That's why we keep saying having this acknowledgement conversation about the situation that you're in so that you can both just share, like, what are the things that are coming up for us? And that way you can really understand how, hey, when I talk about this part of our sex life or when I talk about that, like, yeah, he's feeling ashamed, he's feeling awkward, he's feeling embarrassed. Rather than being like, I must have fucked up by saying something. He must not like me. You know, I must have did that wrong.

Okay, there's one quick sentence that she wrote here. She said, I'm at a loss of how to get over my dread of rejection and how to dig the hell out. So again, this is like so many episodes that we have that tie into this. We do have an episode all about how to deal with rejection if your partner's not in the mood. That is episode 13. So definitely go back and check that out. But for me, I think this is another one of those moments to really weigh out in your mind, like, nobody likes to be rejected. Of course it's a horrible feeling. We all do so many things to try to avoid rejection. You're never going to like it. It and it's like, okay, you have the choice to make. You can choose to do everything, pay any cost to avoid the rejection. And that means you guys are going to continue with this dead bedroom. You're not going to reconnect sexually. You're not going to have sex. You're going to continue feeling all of.

These horrible feelings, and those feelings are going to get worse over time because they're just going to build.

Yeah. But you will have avoided the rejection.

Was it worth it?

Yeah. Yeah. Was it worth it? Because the other option is to start talking about this, to start rebuilding your relationship, rebuilding your sex life. There is going to be some pain that goes along with it. There are going to be moments of feeling rejection. Because we've said before, like, rejection is a part of every couple's sex life. Xander and I have a really amazing sex life, and we still turn each other down. Like, rejection is still a part of our relationship. In and out of the bed, bedroom. Right. So we've just. It's not that we've learned how to avoid rejection. We've learned how to manage it to not make it not feel like a rejection.

Yeah. And I think the person writing this acknowledged earlier on something, you know, kind of gave the metaphor of ripping the band aid off. Like, this whole thing, you know, it is. Yeah. You can continue with the status quo, you can continue avoiding the feeling of awkwardness or the feeling of rejection, or you can rip the band aid off and you can have. Have a couple of, what are. They're going to be really uncomfortable situations early on, but with the promise of those feelings subsiding quickly and being able to start making some progress and feeling better about it, or do you want to, you know, avoid that one thing so much every single day that you put up with, you know, the lower level of shame and, you know, discomfort around the fact that, okay, we're in a dead bedroom, but I'm comfortable with this. It's been years. And, you know, I know how to deal with this on a. On a daily basis. But the question is, do you know how to deal with that on a lifetime basis? Like, I think you're saying that you don't. You're question, you know, she was questioning in the last paragraph or the paragraph before about, like, can we really have a relationship long term that. That looks like this. So, yeah, I mean, you got to lean into that, that, that initial that, you know, being rejected some number of times, having that conversation of, hey, this is where we're at. It sucks. I don't want to be here. I don't think you want to be here. Let's just acknowledge it. Okay, next one. I cry a lot. I don't know if this eats at him. I think I'm too scared to learn the truth. But this isn't healthy, and this isn't right. Everyone makes it seem so easy, and I feel paralyzed. It's crushing our relationship, whether we realize it or not. Thank you for bringing this up and embracing the elephant in the dead bedroom. Signed, someone who desperately wants out of this and pretty sure hopes my partner does too.

Okay, so first of all, let's just say it's not easy for everyone. It's not easy for the vast majority of people. I mean, that's why we have a business. That's why we wrote a book, and it was an instant New York Times bestseller. That's why we have this podcast. Like, it's not easy. So I just want to. To normalize and validate that. Like, this doesn't mean that something is horribly wrong with the two of you, that it doesn't feel easy. Like, it's normal for it not to feel easy. But I think the thing that really jumps out at me from this paragraph and really from the entire story is all the inference that's going on here. Like, you two are not communicating. You don't know what's going through your partner's head. You're making a lot of assumptions about what he's thinking and feeling, and they're like the worst case scenario assumptions. So you're like, torturing yourself.

Yeah. I mean, and you're making decisions based on those assumptions. Oh, he must. He must be feeling this. So therefore I'm gonna do that. And he's probably doing the exact same thing as well. So it's like stories upon stories upon stories that haven't been checked with each other, making decisions based on these stories, taking actions or lack of action based on those stories, and you don't even know if those stories are true. It's like, how do you know? What if this is real or not?

Yeah, absolutely. I think the bottom line here is, like, for as tough as this story may seem, for all the emotions that are wrapped up in it, I really think that the solution to this is the two of them talking about it openly. I mean, that's why we're so freaking passionate about sexual communication. Like, we've been through this ourselves. Knowing the pains of making these assumptions, making inferences, and then acting from them. And we now know the. The joys and the pleasures of having open communication and realizing all of these ways that we've missed each other. Like, you thought that. Oh, my God, I was completely assuming that you thought the other thing. Right. It's just. It's so powerful to finally get these things out in the Open and hear what your partner is saying. And I know there is such a huge fear that she's expressing here of like, does he feel the same way or is he like, is it possible that maybe he doesn't care? He's happy?

Yeah.

And I do. Like, I kind of want to go out on a limb here. I never like to make assumptions because we're obviously hearing from her. We have no freaking clue what his side of the story is. But I would venture to guess I feel pretty confident that he's not happy either. I think if you, if your partner is truly happy, not ever having sex, not ever talking about it, like, you would know that like your, maybe your partner would say right from the get go of the relationship, like, I'm not a sexual person or maybe even like, I'm asexual, I'm not looking to have a sexual relationship with somebody.

Or they're just like always turning you down. And that's not what's happening in this. I mean, this case, the person writing in isn't really initiating very much because she's scared of rejection. They are doing it sometimes very few and far between and then they're not very happy with the outcome of it.

Even if it was being turned down regularly. I don't think that that inherently means that your partner doesn't care. Like, if your partner was truly, like, I am so happy with this real, this is like the perfect ideal relationship. I'm happy, I'm fulfilled. I found myself, like, you would know, like, they'd be moving about the world, moving about their day to day life, like, happy and like, hey, another day with you person that I don't really talk to or connect with or have sex with, like, they would seem happy. You would just know if your partner was happy with this.

So, yeah. And it sounds like you're describing that there's a heavy energy between both of you.

There's tension, there's an awkwardness that there's a discomfort of like, I think that means that he's not happy with it either.

Yeah.

And so as, again, I want to validate, like, yes, this is so scary. It's not easy to open up these conversations. It's not easy to, to ask your partner to share with you, like, what they're thinking and feeling. But I really think that the fears that you are creating in your head, the way that you're building this all up, it's worse than the reality of what's happening. I actually think there's a tremendous potential here for the two of you to connect over the ways that shame and misinformation have gotten in the way of your sex life. The ways that all these external factors, the work, the stress, the taking care of a family member is getting in the way of your connection. Like, just imagine what it would feel like, literally, if nothing else changed. You're having the exact same sex life, the exact same stresses, the exact same life scenarios. But the two of you would be able to look at each other and say, we're teammates in this.

We want out of this.

This sucks. We're gonna try to change things, but, like, this is what it is right now. But we have each other's backs, and we are gonna do whatever we can with whatever limited time, energy, whatever it is like, to try to fix this. Like, even if nothing got fixed, just that feeling of like, we're teammates in this, that would feel so much better. Better, right? So I hope that gives you some motivation to. To start having these conversations to open yourself up, to open up to your partner. I really. I think that there's a lot of potential here.

Yeah. Yeah. I really hope for the best for this couple, for everyone who wrote in.

Yeah. So that is our story for today. If you're listening, please keep us updated. Let us know how things. Things go. Let us know how we can further support you if this wasn't your story. Let us know what you thought of this format. Should we do another story about dead bedrooms? We got hundreds and we want to help. So let us know if there are other ways that we can support, other resources that we can provide you, other episode topics that we can do. The best way to reach us is over on Instagram. We're at Vanessa and Xander. Xander's with an X. Shoot us a dm. Let us know what you thought about this episode and how we. We can support you. And we will link a bunch of things in the show notes if you want to check them out. We have that MILFs, DILs and PILFs course that I mentioned, sex talks. And we also have our foreplay guides and next level intercourse, which really go into detail about how to pleasure each other, how to have sex. So for this couple, those are going to be down the line. Not something I would like download today and start trying to do.

Not tonight, but soon.

Yeah, not tonight, but soon. And start with the foreplay guides and then move up to next level intercourse from there.

Well, that's all for today's episode of Pillow Talks. Thank you so much for listening. Join us again next week when we talk about our viral bristle reaction video.

Sam.