Pillow Talks EPISODE 13: How To Handle Rejection When Your Partner Says No To Sex

So many people feel like they hear a no, and it feels to them like I just shouldn't ever have asked in the first place. I shouldn't have even wanted it in the first place. But that is just not true. Hello and welcome to the Pillow Talks podcast. We're your hosts, Vanessa and Xander Marin. I'm a sex therapist with 20 years of experience.

And I'm just a regular dude. We share the ups and downs in our relationship while giving you step by step techniques for improving yours.

So make sure to subscribe for your weekly double date full of totally doable sex tips, practical relationship advice, hilarious and honest stories of what really goes on behind closed bedroom doors, and so much more. It's the sex education you wish you'd had. Imagine yourself initiating sex with your partner. So you just press pause on this podcast. You go right over to your partner, you tell them that you want to have sex, and then imagine that your partner says no. So we want to know what comes up for you.

How does that feel?

So initiating sex is one of the most vulnerable things that we do in our relationships. We are guessing probably 99.9999% of you just felt this horrible pit in your stomach when you imagined that it would. Probably brought up a lot of different feelings, too. We're gonna get into that in a minute, but I'm guessing there's not really anyone listening who. Great. Can't wait.

Yeah. Before you judge yourself about being like, oh, why is this so vulnerable? Think about asking for something that you want outside of the bedroom in real life, asking for a raise, asking your parents when you were a kid for, like, that toy that you really wanted.

Or asking someone out on a date.

Asking someone out on a date, asking if your friend wants to go on a trip with you or do something. Like, it's always a vulnerable experience. I know for me, when you. Whenever I'm about to ask someone to do something for something that I need, maybe feels like a little bit of a stretch, I have this part of me that goes, what if they say no? How's that going to feel? And that's what vulnerability is. It should not be a surprise that something as intimate as sex, likely you don't talk about as much as you talk about everyday things like work or life. It's going to be more vulnerable. The stakes are going to feel higher.

Yeah. And it's so challenging because, you know to a lot of these requests, you are going to hear a no. Like, it's not like we're living in this magical fantasy Land where we just have to get up the courage to ask for what we want. But then it'll be fine because everyone's always going to say yes, because then.

You wouldn't need to get up the courage for anything because you just go, okay, I'll take that. I'll take that. I'll take that.

So, you know, no matter what the circumstances are, anytime that you hear a no, it always sucks. And I think there's some extra suckage that comes along. Suckage when it's getting turned down for sex. Pun not intended there. Because there probably is no suckage going on if you're getting turned down for sex.

No, no. Suckage. Suckage.

We went over to our Instagram audience to ask some questions about getting turned down for sex. 81% of people said that their feelings get hurt when they initiate sex and their partner turns them down. I'm actually pretty surprised by that. I thought we would have gotten, like, 98%.

So, to the 19% of people that don't get their feelings hurt, what are you guys doing?

Well, they've already taken the tips that we're going to share in this podcast.

Great. They must have been following us for a real long time. They know all the answers.

And 72% of people said that when they get turned down for sex, they take it really personally. Like, they think that they're getting turned down because of something about them. One person wrote into us and said, you know, when I hear a no from my partner, what goes through my head is, I must suck in bed. I'm disgusting. I'm not wanted. I'm good for nothing. Today we want to give you tips for handling those feelings of rejection that come up when you get turned down for sex. We cannot wave our magic wand and make it so that your partner never, ever turns you down. But we want to help you navigate those feelings and so that they don't get so heavy for you, so that you don't turn it internal and think, like, something's horribly wrong with you. Think that you're disgusting. Like, that's so heavy. We are going to give you our best tips for navigating rejection with grace and maybe even with a little bit of ease.

And imagine if we can handle feelings of rejection with grace and ease in the bedroom. Think about the impact that's going to have on your life outside of the bedroom, too, and handling rejection in areas where maybe the stakes don't feel quite as high or embarrassing. But before we get into that, we are going to get into the review of the week. Honestly, this podcast is an absolute game changer. My husband and I have always had a really good sex life, but after listening to Xander and Vanessa, it's great. The key, communication. Vanessa and Xander do a fantastic job of giving you tips and tricks to express your wants and needs, and their topics are so incredibly relatable. Thank you both.

Thank you.

Yeah, thank you so much. We just really want to keep the good times rolling with all of these reviews. So we have started kind of a fun little contest. Leave a review for us on Apple Podcasts. Take a screenshot of it. DM it to us on Instagram. We will enter you every single week into a giveaway where the winner can send in a question to us, and we will record you a little voice or video memo, depending on where we are and how we're feeling, to answer your question. So this will be, you know, just some, like, really targeted, personalized advice from us to you.

And our handle on Instagram is Vanessa Marin Therapy.

So review screenshot, Send.

All right, let's get back to this topic of rejection. So the first thing that we want to talk about is, why does this hurt so bad? So this podcast is actually coming at a really interesting time because literally two days ago, I was listening to a different podcast talking about some recent research that was done on rejection. So they did this really interesting study where they had research participants come in. They said, okay, we're doing a study. You need to sit in this little waiting room, and then we'll bring you in to do the study. Unbeknownst to them, they had two plants in the waiting room, and the waiting room was actually the real study.

Oh, surprise. This is. If you study psychology, there's a lot of studies that are set up like this. Yeah.

If you're ever going to be a research participant, just expect the research you think you're doing is probably a little bit from what's actually going to happen. But anyways, so they had these two plants, and they put a little ball in the waiting room. And so one of the plants picked up the ball, so they threw it to the second plant, threw it back.

I'm just envisioning two plants throwing the ball to each other. She means people when she says plants, by the way, just in case you got confused like I did. She's not talking about two house plants. There are two people who have been planted by the researchers.

Not literally in the ground saying plants is. Because when I was listening to this podcast, they were calling them confederates.

I heard you.

I was like, I don't want to talk about confederates.

I was about to say, man, thank God you're using a different word than the one you used yesterday to me when you described it, but I'm glad we clarified that for everybody. Confederate plants.

Okay, so they threw the ball back and forth between each other, and then they threw it to the research participant. The research participant threw it back to them, and then the two plants ended up just throwing the ball back and forth to each other for the rest of the time. So the person who was the participant, they got one toss and then all of a sudden they're left out of this weird little waiting room game.

It's a kind of messed up implicit rejection of, you're not good enough to throw the ball back and forth. You're not good enough to join us in our little fake game.

Ye. So obviously, like a small moment of rejection, like they didn't say anything to each other. There wasn't, you know, any sort of like, you're a terrible person or I don't want to have sex with you or anything like that. Like, it was just this little ball toss. But when they brought the research participants out of the waiting room and, like, talked to them, they did some studies on them and stuff, and they found that they were deeply and profoundly affected by this sense of rejection, even something that was so small. So the psychologist who was sharing this research then started talking about, like, why is rejection even a thing? And he was bringing up some evolutionary psychology. And way back in the days when we're cavemen and living in these, like, nomadic tribes back in the day, we had to be really sensitive to rejection because if we got rejected by the tribe, we were gonna be out on our own having to fend for ourselves.

I. E. You're gonna die, you're dead.

Yeah, exactly. So he said humans evolved to be really hyper attuned to, you know, is everybody okay with me? They're accepting me. I'm not being rejected. Because it literally was a survival.

Yeah. When you feel rejection, you might respond in a more extreme way. You might want to say, okay, well, then I will definitely not do that thing that gave me this feeling so that I don't get sent out into the wild on my own. Or maybe, or maybe you start to think, okay, well, these things tend to lead to this type of rejection that makes me scared that I'm going to die. So then I'm going to do different things. I'm never going to do that again. Or I'm going to, like, try even harder to like, change people's minds. Like, there's all kinds of things that. That might lead you to feel like you just need to do for your life.

So let's dig a little bit more into, like, what feelings does this bring up? So we asked our Instagram audience, we said, tell us in as much detail as you can. Like, when your partner turns you down, what gets stirred up for you? Insecure, undesirable, boring. Not good enough. Worried, suspicious. Suspicious, annoyed, frustrated, angry, hurt, rejected, sad, disconnected, unimportant, and ashamed.

These all make so much sense, having talked about those evolutionary reasons for why we fear rejection.

And so a lot of people sent in quotes just describing, you know, what that experience was like for them. So here are a few of them. Are we just an old married couple now?

I want to turn him down the next time he initiates, or I'm feeling resentful because I didn't turn him down.

It reminds me of past infidelity in our relationship and past relationships. I think if he doesn't want it from me, maybe he wants it or is getting it elsewhere. That was actually one of the most common responses that came up. I would say it was the most common one was that people were really worried about infidelity.

Oh, yeah. And this gets back to some evolutionary type of things, too. I can totally imagine. Do they prefer masturbation over me?

I want sex too much. I must be a pervert.

I ended up in a downward spiral for two to three days of feeling like I don't matter to her, and it will take two to three weeks or sometimes more for me to gather the courage to just try again.

Makes me feel like an ashamed child.

It makes me feel like I'm just living with a shitty roommate that I cook and clean for.

Oof. Those last two are pretty brutal. This is not a. Just like, you know, oh, I'm bummed. I wanted to have sex. Now I don't get to. This is like, I feel like an ashamed child. Yeah.

So, you know, these are such big emotions and feelings that are coming up and hopefully now when we've described this research and some of the evolutionary stuff, like, you understand just how big and widespread of a thing rejection is. What I hope for you is that you can feel like you don't need to judge yourself for having these feelings of rejection. Like in the bedroom when your partner turns you down. This is a very normal thing. There's nothing wrong with you feeling all of these things that we just described. This is very normal. And the first step to changing the Way that we feel is recognizing these things that are coming up for us are natural. They're normal, they make sense. They're not our fault.

Yeah. It's so often that, you know, when we try to fight against our feelings or try to spoiler, it doesn't work. It doesn't ever work. Your feelings will always win. They will always get stronger and be like, oh, you're trying to make me go away? Hell, no. Us learning to accept them, and we'll get to that in a minute. But, you know, even though that's a really challenging thing, it's not as easy as just saying, like, I accept myself. We just want to normalize. The point of this episode here is we're not going to tell you how to get rid of those feelings. You need tools for how to navigate this. That's what we're going to transition into talking to for the rest of the episode. How do we deal with these feelings of sexual rejection? The first thing that we want to share with you is to prepare yourself for rejection. So I think this is an area where, you know, this lack of sexual education, this lack of sexual communication, like, it really comes back to bite us in the ass. Because nobody ever talks about the fact that, like, you're going to get turned down for sex. Right. And so I think a lot of us go into our sexual relationships with this. These hopes and these dreams that we're gonna find someone who's just so compatible with us, and they're gonna want it every time that we want it.

They're never gonna turn you down. Or they turn you down once, and you go, okay, well, now I'm gonna change my behavior so that this never happens again. And the reality is it never happening again isn't. Is just not reasonable.

Yeah, rejection is always going to be a part of your sex life. Rejection is a part of Xander and my sex life.

Yep.

You know, you're never going to have a relationship where it is not a part of that. So I think all of us missed this opportunity to be able to prepare for it. But we can still do that now. We can still acknowledge and recognize, okay, I'm hearing what they're saying. Like, yeah, rejection is going to be a part of my sex life. And in a way, you can kind of think of it as the price of admission for your sex life, or really for life in general. You know that you're going to have experiences of being turned down in your life. You can choose if you want to, to never put yourself out there, to never ask for what you want. I'm guessing that you'll probably still get rejected in some ways, even if you're not trying. Yeah. If you want to have an engaging life that you're actively a part of, rejection is going to be a part of it. I think this can be kind of a conversation that you have with yourself, a little bit of, okay, let me see what that feels like for me. Can I accept that I'm going to be rejected? I'm going to continue to be rejected? What does that stir up for me? And we'll get back to the feelings aspect of this in a second. But, you know, this can be this bigger conversation that you have, and it can be a reminder that you give to yourself in the moment. So let's say you want to go initiate with your partner. It could help to take a second to tell yourself, hey, look, there's a possibility that I'm going to get a no here, and that's okay. I'm going to choose to go ahead and ask anyways. Or maybe it's your partner has just turned you down. That could be, again, a little like self coaching that you give to yourself in that moment of, okay, that stings, that sucks, I don't like it. And this is something that I knew is going to continue to be a part of my life. It's going to continue to exist.

It's something where you can just set an expectation with yourself. Rejection will be a part of your life that the goal is of your life. The goal of your sex life, the goal of initiating sex is not to never be turned down again. And that's also a discussion you can have with yourself. You can also have it with your partner. Like, ideally, this is not like, you're not talking about this right after a rejection, but just, you know, in a separate moment where things feel good and stable between you. Reiterating, you both are in agreement that rejection is going to be a part of your relationship. It's going to be a part of your sex life.

Yeah. Come back and listen to this episode again with them.

Yeah.

Our next tip is to learn how to accept the no. So, again, getting turned down sucks. Anytime we ask for something that we want and we hear a no, it sucks. But the bottom line with sex is that your partner always gets to decide what they want to do with their own body. So we hear a lot of stories from couples where, you know, this is such a triggering and hard conversation and someone ends up getting upset and it turns into an argument. And we've heard a lot of stories where there's some subtle and some very not so subtle pressuring that couples end up doing. Like, sometimes, for example, like, let's say Xander turns me down. Like, I could feel so scared and so hurt and so rejected that I might want to, like, push him to. Let's actually do it so I can get rid of these feelings.

Yeah. Or, like, make a threat, like, I'm leaving the house unless we do this. Or.

That's one of the not so subtle ones. Yeah. We just really want to be clear. Like, it is okay for you to feel your feelings, but you need to let your partner be the authority over their own body. Do not in any way, shape or form, subtle or not subtle. Do not guilt trip them. Do not pressure. Do not force them into having sex or being intimate with you if that is not feeling good for them in that moment. And this can be a great thing to do in the moment with your partner, too, is like, let your partner know very clearly. I respect your decision. I hear it, and I respect it. Especially. You don't have to do it if it's kind of a casual moment where you're like, okay, bummer, but I'm moving on. But if it's, you know, a really tense kind of thing, like, make sure your partner knows, hey, I hear that. No, I respect that. I'm not trying to, like, push you, guilt you, manipulate you into changing your mind. All right, now let's talk about the feelings, the real. The real meat of this episode. You know, we talked about kind of preparing for and accepting that you're going to get rejected from your partner. Of course, that does not mean that feelings won't come up. We read through that list of feelings just a few minutes ago, and, like, those were some big, big, big ones.

Yeah. I think where people get really tripped up is they hear the last thing that we said, accept the no. And people kind of intellectually understand. Okay. Yeah. It is important to listen to what someone says and accept it. And where people tend to go wrong is they tend to think, if I am accepting the no, I just say, okay, I hear you. And then I shut off my feelings. Like, because I'm accepting the no, I am not allowed to have any feelings about that. And the reality, like we were saying, you can't turn your feelings off.

Yeah.

They will find a way to come up, whether it's in that moment or they will simmer and they will come out in other areas in your life. There is no way, as much as we think that we can be strong and silent. There is no way to truly suppress emotions for life. It's important to remember I have to hear and accept the no. And I am allowed to have feelings.

So this is a classic and situation. Like, we've talked before about how and is our favorite word. It is okay for your partner to say no, and it is okay for you to feel bummed, hurt, angry, frustrated, disappointed, you know, whatever it is, reject it. Yeah, all of those things. Those things can both be true at the same time. Time, allow yourself to feel whatever it is that comes up for you. So when we read over that list, obviously there were a lot of different feelings that came up. Right. Your task in the moment is to see if you can get kind of curious and name the specific feelings that are coming up for you. Naming our feelings is one of the best ways for us to feel more in control in the moment and actually.

To feel the feelings. If you can name what it is, you can, oh, I recognize this. I've felt this before when this happened. This feels similar to whatever. Oh, this is shame.

Exactly. So see if you can name what those feelings are. What is the specific feeling or the combinations of feelings that you are feeling, and then get curious of this. Is stirring anything else up for you? Like, I'm thinking about that quote of feel like an ashamed child. There's clearly a story there with that person. What, as a child, made them feel ashamed? What is it like to feel like an ashamed child?

Did they have a similar experience? Not like a sexual experience, but just an experience where they asked for something, expressed a need for something, and were told no.

This is hard work. I mean, we're definitely going to do more episodes about feelings in the future because this is another area where we don't really get any education and don't have the tools for what to do. But this can be such a great first step is allowing yourself to name the feeling and then just sit with it for a moment. Like, don't feel like you have to do anything to get rid of the feeling. The only way for you to move through a feeling, to stop feeling it, is to feel it.

Imagine how different just doing this one step could make things feel for you. Because likely in the past, what you've done is have a moment of rejection and you feel like, oh, I have to play it cool. I have to play it off. Like, I'm unfazed by this. And what you're really doing when you do that is you say, I am not going to allow myself to feel this. These feelings that are Coming up for me, I'm going to suppress those feelings. So instead of dealing with them at the time like we were suggesting, now you suppress it, and you're basically feeling a low level of that feeling over a very long period of time after that. And then whenever any type of situation like this comes up or you even consider I'm feeling like I would like sex, I'm thinking about initiating it. Oh, but wait. I'm still feeling that feeling of shame or rejection that I have not properly dealt with. I've not properly felt that feeling, allowed myself to name it and feel it and get through it. It should not be a surprise that you are less likely to initiate. You try it in a different way. You try it in a somewhat manipulative way or an underhanded way to not feel those things again. And you just keep putting off and putting off and putting off those feelings, and then eventually they boil over and you're like, oh, my God, I can't deal with our sex life anymore. So just think about if you allow yourself to feel it in the moment, what kind of difference might that make for you?

The other point that I'm just thinking about right now is I think in some circumstances, there's a way where we kind of turn our feelings outward towards our partners. Like, I'm thinking about times when Xander has turned me down. There have been instances where I think, wow, he's being a jerk, or he doesn't care about my needs, or he's prioritizing this thing over me, and I get more focused on what's going on for him rather than tuning into myself and feeling into what is it that's coming up for me? Because, again, those feelings are so different. Feeling disappointed is a really different feeling from disconnected is a really different feeling from angry. So really being able to turn the lens back on ourselves and think, yeah, there may have been some sort of circumstance going on in the moment where maybe Xander was prioritizing something over me. But what's really important is for me first to tune into, like, what are the feelings that are coming up for me?

Think about yourself. Try not to think about them and inferring what they might be thinking or feeling or whatever. Focus on yourself first. Like, you're responsible for you and your feelings. Your partner is responsible for themselves and their feelings.

Yeah. So the final step with feelings that we want to talk about is also just to validate your feelings. Like we were talking earlier about the fact that it makes sense to have a reaction to this. This is a painful experience. It's not just some casual, like your partner saying, oh, no, I'd rather have Italian for dinner instead of Chinese tonight. This is something that is vulnerable. It does hurt. It's hard. So, like, validate yourself. All that that can be is something as simple as, I'm feeling lonely. That's the feeling that's coming up for me. It makes sense that I'm feeling that it's okay for me to feel that right now. So give yourself some validation in that moment.

And better yet, what's something that you can do to maybe take care of yourself and to soothe that feeling a bit? If it is lonely, maybe something you could do is suggest another activity with your partner you know you can do together that will help you not feel lonely. Perhaps it's calling your friend or calling a family member, doing something social that is going to help you feel okay, I'm not feeling lonely because I'm talking with somebody else.

Our next tip is to depersonalize it. So I think this really gets at the heart of the rejection issue. What comes up so strongly for so many of us is that it's really easy for us to take rejection personally. We hear our partners say no, and we think it's all about us. Like, think back to all those Instagram responses that we read. I'm not sexy enough. I'm not pretty enough. I'm not thin enough. All this stuff comes up for us. But I think it's really important for us to recognize that when your partner says no to sex, what they're doing is they're turning down sex in that particular moment for a particular reason.

Yeah, they're not actually saying any of those things. You're not pretty enough.

Yeah. I mean, think back the times that I've initiated with you and you've said no. Do you remember any times where the reason that you said no was because of me?

Oh, absolutely not.

Okay, so what were some of the reasons why you said no?

I was tired, I was stressed. I was feeling sad or depressed. Yeah, Just like my head wasn't in it.

Yeah. I mean, that's the experience.

It's all about me.

Yeah, I know. It's so funny, right? It's like you're saying no because it's all about you, and I'm hearing it as, oh, it's all about me me. So this is just a huge miscommunication that couples are having in these moments.

Yeah. I think for the person doing the rejecting, there's definitely a way to be more skillful about how you word It. Because oftentimes we kind of just say no without elaborating on why. And so, you know, maybe then the other person has to ask, like, oh, well, what's going on? You're already in this place where the person asking is like, oh, do I really believe them? So if you're the person rejecting as much, much easier to just say, what is going on for you, like, in a single sentence, rather than just giving, like, a vague, oh, no, I'm not feeling like it right now, because that does leave it open to interpretation. Then again, the person receiving that you should be aware. You often go to interpret it to be way bigger than it really is. So there's something for both people to do.

And I think there's even something that we can do here about taking the word rejection out of the equation. So when we even describe it as my partner rejected me, we're making it about ourselves. But instead, could we turn that language around to have that focus on our partner? So, let's say, for example, like, I go to initiate sex with Xander, and he turns me down. Rather than saying, xander rejected me, I could tell myself something like, you know what? Xander isn't able to connect with me right now because he's exhausted.

Or you could just say, xander rejected sex. And then, you know, it's sex. It's not you, it's not me. It's this thing that we do together.

Yeah, but I like phrasing it in this way of, like, isn't able to connect with me right now because it focuses on, like, you know, that's what we're really looking for, is that connection. And it's also talking about, like, my partner's ability to show up in that moment with me and, like, actually be intimate and present with me. Like, Xander could say, okay, fine, I'll do it, even though I'm exhausted. And we'd probably have some pretty bad sex.

Yeah, that wouldn't make you feel very good about yourself, I imagine. Okay, he's doing it now, but he doesn't want to.

Yeah, so I like that idea of, like, my partner isn't able to connect with me right now because of whatever the particular reason is. And the last piece of advice that we want to give you is to keep initiating. 60% of our Instagram audience said that the fear of rejection prevents them from initiating sex in the first place. And for some people, it's like, I've never initiated, or I so rarely initiate because I'm so afraid of rejection. For other people, it's. I'VE been rejected so much that now I won't initiate anymore. So there was one message that someone sent in that said, I've shut off my libido altogether, so I don't risk being shut down when I am turned on.

That really sounds like what I was describing before. Avoiding feeling those feelings in the moment. Your body is really, really good at compensating. And when you suppress something for long enough, it will manifest itself in another area. Poof, there goes the libido.

The point that we really want to make here is the answer that your partner gives to your initiation. That does not validate or invalidate your needs. So your partner saying no doesn't mean that your needs weren't valid. It doesn't mean that you shouldn't have asked. It doesn't mean, like, how dare you have sexual needs. You get to have needs. Sexual, non sexual, anything. Like, you get to have needs. And you deserve to advocate for those needs. Now, of course, we're not talking about going to the other extreme and just being an entitled asshole who walks around thinking that you deserve whatever whim you have in any particular moment. But I'm guessing that if you're listening to this episode about how to deal with rejection, there is no risk of you going to that extreme. Keep reminding yourself you know your needs are valid and you deserve to advocate for them. This is just such an important point because so many people feel like, you know, they hear a no, and it feels to them like, I just shouldn't ever have asked in the first place. I shouldn't have even wanted it in the first place. I'm such a fill in the blank. So many different judgments that can come up, but that is just not true.

And if you need a little help to lighten the mood, just think about Oprah. You get a need. You get a need. You get a need. Sometimes. Hey, sometimes you're trying to bring it.

Back to the Oprah meetings.

I am. I am. I am trying to roll it back. I'm trying to roll it back. I know. That is the highest form of comedy.

That's a deep cut.

I didn't quite hit the nail on the head. However, what I do know, sometimes having just a funny little touchstone to come back to in your mind can be super effective. Maybe I've ruined things for some of our listeners out there who now in a moment of rejection, and they're struggling to feel their feelings if they just think about Oprah. You got a, you got a car. You got a car. You got a car.

There's a need there. You only get one.

You get as many needs as you want, and you get as many needs as you want. Stop trying to tear apart my metaphor. Stop trying to tear apart my metaphor.

Rejecting your metaphor.

Yeah, I feel really rejected. My metaphor feels really rejected. Oprah feels rejected. Oprah, if you're listening, I'm sorry. On behalf of Vanessa, should we try.

To work Oprah into every podcast episode going forward? Forward.

That might be how we manifest our way onto Oprah.

Just dying thinking about Oprah listening to this podcast right now. I hope so.

Sup, Oprah?

Okay, let's go back to this idea of, you know, to keep initiating. Like, when I read that message that someone sent in, like, I've shut off my libido altogether, I just felt so much sadness in my heart for that person, because I know it's easy for us to write off sex drive as, like, oh, you know, that person's just horny. They just want to get off. But. But libido, like, our desire for sex, it's about connection. It's about play. It's about experimentation. It's about expression. It's about so much more than just naked bodies colliding against each other.

So the Bump and uglies. That is such a bad phrase.

I hate it.

Me too. It's so gross. But I just thought of that when you said that. Sorry.

Oh, my God. We should do a podcast episode on, like, the worst aphorism.

Is that called an aphorism is an aphorism. I think it might be. I'm actually kind of concerned. Is there a podcast called Bumping Uglies? I feel like it probably exists if it doesn't in another world. Like, if we. If we had a really, like, gross, weird podcast where we had, like, sound effects and, like, all of that stuff would be, like, buying the bump and ugliest podcast. The funny story, I think Vanessa maybe was on a guest on a podcast one time. Unbeknownst to her, it was that type of podcast, and she was like, it was very early on, I think, in your career, and, like, she was just so excited to be interviewed on a podcast and tell the people what happened.

Very early on in the interview, they started playing those noises, and they did it, like, every few sentences that I said, it was, like, comical.

Like, she'd say, like, brass, and they'd be like, boing.

I think I came out of the room, and I was just so sad. I was like, I'm so embarrassed to be associated with this podcast.

I'm Never gonna do a podcast again. That's. It took us so long to do this one. Maybe she was. You were dramatized.

Wow, this is. We're going off on a lot of tangents around. Keep initiating. But let's bring it home.

We gotta give people a reason to listen after all. A little bit of, you know, humor, a couple asides.

Serious podcast, like all the way through until our last point and then we're going off. Yes. It made me very sad to read this person's quote because the idea of somebody turning off any aspect of themselves, but especially one that's so central to like, our self expression and our identity and our sense of joy, that's really sad. Being turned down feels awful. We are not trying to sugarcoat that in any way, shape or form. I am remembering instances of feeling turned down. The shame. I can feel the, like, burning in my face. I can feel the, like, just wanting to shrivel up into a ball and disappear. Like, it sucks. It really hurts. And you do not need to shut yourself down or act like you never had a need in the first place or you shouldn't have asked for what you want in the first place. You are a sexual being. You are allowed to have sexual needs and desires. And you are allowed to advocate for yourself and to ask for what you want. So please, do not shut yourself down. Let yourself shine bright like a diamond with a Rihanna song. Xander doesn't get any of my. He's like, looking at me like a deer in the headlights. I can't do pop culture references with Xander.

No, no, I know exactly what you are saying.

Shine bright like a diamond.

Oh, I know, I know. Shine bright like a diamond. I was stifling a laugh because she said, please.

Please, please. We have this running joke between the two of us. We have our YouTube channel. If you have, you should follow us on YouTube and please subscribe to our channel and like our videos. But we have a YouTube channel and every week we record videos. And Xander always does a little send off where he asks our watchers to, like, please subscribe to our channel and follow. And like, we really need that engagement. It's the only way we grow. Just like here on the podcast. I have to, like, hold myself back from laughing every single week because I feel like when he says please, it comes off, like, so desperate.

Like, please, I'm a little child. I'm a little child expressing my need. I really don't want to get rejected, so I'm gonna sound as cute, as cute as I possibly can. Please, please subscribe please. Hit that. Follow Shoot. Wait, what is. I don't even remember what it is on YouTube. Please subscribe. Hit the thumbs up button while you're at it. Subscribe.

Please go watch some of our YouTube videos and see if you can hear Xander. He thinks I'm over exaggerating how bad it is. But see if you can pick up on it. See if you can see me holding back a laugh and shoot us a message on Instagram. Vanessa Marinetherapy.

And let us know, do let us know if you think that it feels normal and appropriate or perhaps funny and over the top. I think our YouTube editor is a little more in my camp than in yours. Also, it is your sister, and I.

Know, like, she's a YouTube editor.

She agrees. She agrees with me.

I think I'm gonna make her make a compilation of all the times that you've said it.

All right, that would be some good content. We could consider putting that on the show notes page for this podcast. And maybe we could probably embed a little poll on it too, just like Smash. Yes or no?

All right, let's bring it on home with some listener questions.

All right. So what if my partner always turns me down?

All right, so we definitely wanted to address this situation because we recognize that this is a dynamic that comes up in a lot of relationships. So you might find yourself in this situation where it's, you know, it's not like I'm getting every here and now, here and now.

Try that again.

Here and there.

Every here and there. Every you and every me.

I don't even know what I'm trying to say now. You may find yourself in situations where it's not like every once in a while. There you go. Every once in a while you're getting turned down. It's like every time. And so, you know, if initiation has become a really big issue in your relationships or you feel like your sex drives are very mismatched and it's hard to find this middle ground with each other, you very well may need to have a separate conversation about your sex life, which includes, like, how do we get a little bit closer to being on the same page? How do we have respect for each other's needs? What are some other options that we can put on the table? If one person wants to. To be intimate and the other one doesn't, how do we turn each other down gracefully? I'm remembering, didn't we do a podcast episode where we said turn you down gratefully?

I think we did.

So we just want to say, like, this may come up for you. And the point of this podcast was really to kind of talk more about the occasional instances of being turned down. But if rejection is becoming a really big issue in your relationship, one thing that you can check out is we have this masterclass, our initiation masterclass, that really walks you through, step by step, exactly how to initiate with your partner in ways that will make your partner want to say yes. Because unfortunately, a lot of us initiate in ways that aren't exactly very tempting. So it walks you through what to do, and it also walks you and or your partner through what to do when your partner initiates and you're not in the mood. So how to turn each other down.

The flip side of the coin, we call that consideration, basically, how to stop this vicious cycle that many of us find ourselves in where we. We don't like the way it feels when we are rejected, and at the same time, we don't know how to reject our partner gracefully. And so it's just this ongoing dynamic of, well, you did this to me, and then you did that to me.

So we'll put a link to that masterclass in the show notes. It's really inexpensive, and it is very step by step and tactical. So we definitely recommend checking that.

All right, the next question is, how do I stop feeling like it must be about me, even if my partner insists that it's not about me?

This is a hard one, because I know it's so easy for us to take it personally and to feel like it really has something to do with us. So I would recommend having a separate conversation with your partner. Don't try to do it, you know, in the moment after your partner has just said no. But ask your partner to tell you a little bit more about the kinds of circumstances and situations where they do feel turned on and open to being intimacy and where they don't. And I think it's really important for us to recognize that there are a million different reasons why someone might say no to intimacy in a given moment. And your partner's level of attraction for you, it's just not one of the main ones. So, actually, you know, we were talking about how there was a small group of people who don't take it personally when their partner says no. And those people are messaging in, and people were saying like, yeah, look, it stings. It does hurt. But what I've learned from you guys is that it's not about me. And, you know, a lot of the times it's like my partner isn't feeling well. My Partner's struggling with their mental health in that moment. My partner had a tough day. My partner's hungry. Like, there are so many different things that could be going on. So if you get to hear a little bit more from your partner about, like, what are the things that get in the way of them being open into intimacy, you know, that can really help. At the end of the day, it does come down to believing your partner. You know, we did this episode about letting your partner love your body. I think that was our last episode. And we talked about, like, your partner is trying to give you a gift and can you allow yourself to receive it? And there's sort of a similar dynamic here. Like, your partner's trying to share something with you. Can you allow yourself to believe them? So if your partner's generally an untrustworthy person, they've done a lot of things to break your trust and make you feel like they're not deserving of that, then sure, maybe you can feel self conscious about, like, maybe it really is me.

That's a separate issue.

That's a separate issue. But, you know, in general, if your partner's really trying to tell you, babe, like, it is not about you, then can you allow yourself to believe your partner? The other piece of this that I want to say is, you know, we heard from so many women in particular who just go to these really dark places around, like, you know, I'm too fat and my, you know, boobs are disappointed, disgusting, and, you know, all this stuff, and it, it is making me think again about the letting your partner love your body episode. It's, you know, like, can we allow ourselves to recognize, like, the way that you see your body, the ways that you might be taking rejection so personally? Like, that is just not what your partner sees. So if you haven't listened to that episode, definitely go listen to it next.

Yeah, I mean, one thought that I just had is that if you are one of those people that has a history of really negative of self talk of self judgment, I can imagine how in a moment of rejection, especially if you are having trouble just quickly identifying and naming and feeling the immediate feeling that you're feeling, you suppress that what your body and your mind does is kind of as a coping mechanism to help you suppress that. It goes, well, what is something else that. What's something else that I'm used to doing that will be a way that I can suppress the immediate feeling of rejection. And you go to self judgment because that is another common dynamic, a common thing that comes up for You. That's. Our bodies, like I was saying, are really good at compensating. So oftentimes, if we really don't want to feel one thing, what we will do instead is shift to another thing. And in this case, if it's sort of self judgment, then it will be like, oh, well, it's about my body. It's about that. Rather than just. Rather than being able to sit with. Oh, I. I actually just feel disappointed. I feel unconnected. So the next question is, how can I ask him what's going on without triggering him to be super defensive?

Okay.

And now that could be he or she. In this case, it was a he. But there is nothing gendered about this.

Yeah. So the key thing here is not to pester your partner in the moment. Like, if your partner is saying, no, that is not the time to be like, why? What's going on? What's wrong with you? Why are you not. What's wrong with you?

Sorry, why? What's wrong with you? What's wrong with you? I mean, it's pestering.

Yeah, pestering. I ran out of things to say.

Great example of how to do it when giving your example.

So what you can do is loop back around later at a time when things are calm and feeling good between the two of you. And I would really only recommend doing this if it's like an ongoing pattern that you're noticing. Like, if your partner's just turning you down here and there.

Yeah, occasionally.

Occasionally. Occasionally. Then I don't think you necessarily need to have a deeper conversation about this. But if it's, you know, it's becoming a bigger issue in your relationship, then of course, yes, let's communicate about it. And so, yeah, just having it as a separate question or a separate conversation and then proposing it to your partner in this sort of way of like, hey, look, I love you. I love our sex life. I want us to be, you know, as emotionally and physically intimate and connected as we can. And I'm curious, like, for both of us, what are things that get us in the mood and what are things that get in the way of us getting in the mood? So if you phrase it as, like, I want us each to learn more about each other, that way your partner won't feel so put on the spot, like, what's wrong with you that you never want to have. Have sex with me.

Yeah. And just to be really clear, like, these suggestions, these are things that you can do in the moment to. To position yourself best with your partner. Like, these suggestions are not Going to solve, like, long standing issues that your partner might have about being defensive. Like, I do want to acknowledge that these, you know, reacting super defensively to this or to anything else, that can be a really deeply ingrained dynamic in many people in many partnerships. So these suggestions are not meant to just, like, overnight break down a really long standing dynamic. Like, if you have a history of, you know, one person just being super defensive, or both of you guys being really defensive, or you have a long history of negative self talk, negative body image, self talk, etc. Like, these are things that. That, you know, you can see an individual therapist for, you can see a couple's therapist for to try to, like, bring things down to a level where these tips are going to start to really be effective. Like, I just want to be clear about that. Especially when I hear defensiveness, I know that can be just a huge one. And it's like, you can't fix somebody else's defensiveness by, you know, just following that one tip.

Yeah, of course.

All right, so then the last question is, as a guy, how do I handle turning down my partner when I'm not in the mood? She says men are always supposed to be horny and then immediately takes it personally.

Okay, so we asked you guys a while back if you were interested in doing, and us doing an episode where we talk specifically about heterosexual relationships where the woman is the one with the higher sex drive. And you guys are very into this topic, so we absolutely will come back to it. But we wanted to include this question in this episode because there are unique dynamics that come up in that circumstance because we have all this BS that we've been fed about how men always want sex and how the woman's supposed to be the one with the lower sex drive. And this is also something that we have experienced in phases of our relationship. There have been periods of time where I had a higher sex drive than Xander did, and I felt, like, really embarrassed about that and ashamed. And, you know, he felt a whole lot of feelings about it too. So we're gonna come back to this topic and give you more specific tips. But we just want to say, like, this is an extra sensitive one. So, you know, to this specific guy asking the question, I think what is important to tell your partner is, look, I understand that, you know, when I say no to sex, there may be a whole bunch of feelings that come up for you. I want to know more about those feelings and, like, give her an opportunity to share with her what is it that comes up, but also be really clear with her and say, you know, it's not okay for you to tell me that I'm always supposed to be horny. Like, it's not okay for you to tell me what my needs are supposed to be. And you can listen to this episode with her as well and listen, you know, in particular to this section with her so that she understands, like, look, we all were taught BS about sex and about, you know, each other, but this is just not true. And it's really important that we don't sling this BS at each other, like, in a really hurtful way.

Yeah. I mean, and like, ultimately this just ends up being a huge lose lose for both parties. Like, she feels bad. She feels like she feels bad because she got rejected. And then she says something that makes him feel bad. And also he feels bad about himself. Like, oh, like, what's wrong? Like, something is wrong with me that I don't want it. Something is wrong with me as a man because I'm supposed to be wanting sex all the time and I'm not. And so then it's just like both people end up feeling really bad and probably kind of like long term damaging bad too, because you're like, then, then it's not just like, oh, we felt bad about what happened right there. It's like, I feel bad about what happened right there and I'm worried that something is wrong with me.

Exactly. And this is just like such an ineffective response to have to your partner. Like, like, if your partner says no to you and you come back and shame them for your desire supposed to be higher, how come you never want to say yes? Like, your partner's not going to turn around and say, you know what, you're right, my desire is supposed to be higher, so let's go into the bedroom and get down. That is never going to work. So it's understandable to be having feelings coming up that you have to be so careful about, not turning those feelings into a weapon that you're using against your partner. So we know that was a lot of information that we covered. This is definitely like a heavy and difficult topic for so many of us.

Yeah, listen to this one a couple times.

Yeah, this one could definitely use a re. Listen.

Listen with your partner.

Listen with your partner. We will also post a recap with our tips on our website@vmtherapy.com Episode 13 so make sure to go check out the full show notes over there.

All right, so that's it for today's episode of Pillow Talks. Thank you guys. So much for listening. Join us again next week when we talk about how to navigate different political, spiritual, or religious beliefs in dating and relationships.

Ooh, can a Democrat date a Republican? Yes. Yes. Okay, you don't have to bother listening to the episode next week. The answer is just yes. We're done. All right. And finally, if you have a question that you want answered on the podcast, Xander's giving out easy yes or no answers. He's solving your most complex issues with one word.

So, yeah, the yes no podcast.

How have we come up with, like, 10 different names for our podcast in 13 episodes?

The bump and Uglies yes or no podcast.

Anyways, give us a call and leave us a message at 774-P-I-L L O W-1774, pill. That is our hotline. We are taking your questions. Don't worry. Nobody ever picks up. It goes straight through to voicemail. But we want to incorporate your questions and ideas for future episodes. So give us a call at 774Pillow1.

And just let us know. Do you like Bump and Ugly's podcast or the Ask no podcast? We love to hear from you.

Thanks for listening, Sam.