Pillow Talks EPISODE 8: Has Purity Culture Harmed Your Sex Life? How To Overcome Religious Shame

What truth is there in purity culture? And how did it go so wrong? Hello, and welcome to the Pillow Talks podcast. We're your hosts, Vanessa and Xander Marin. I'm a sex therapist with 20 years.

Of experience, and I'm just a regular dude. We share the ups and downs in our relationship while giving you step by step techniques for improving yours.

So make sure to subscribe for your weekly double date full of totally dual sex tips, practical relationship advice, hilarious and honest stories of what really goes on behind closed bedroom doors, and so much more. It's the sex education you wish you'd had. So today we are talking all about purity culture. We're going to get into a longer definition of it in a minute, but the basic idea behind purity culture is that you need to wait until you're married to have sex, because people who do wait are more pure, wholesome, and desirable. And so, in this week's episode, we're breaking down the effects that purity culture can have on your sex life and what to do if you don't like those effects. So this is the very first time that we have ever talked specifically about purity culture, and it was really interesting. We put up a bunch of questions and slides on Instagram to do some research for this episode, like we do for every episode, and we got some of the most impassioned responses we've ever gotten on all sides of this issue. Oh, yeah, yeah. People were really, really forward to us doing this episode. But before we get into it, we both want to be really careful to say this episode is not about telling anybody what religion you should or should not be. It is not about saying that you can't have religious morals or values around sex. We truly and deeply respect everyone's individuality. We respect diversity. We respect everyone's ability to choose what feels right for them and in their religion, their relationships, their sex life. So this is not us, you know, telling you that you have to do any specific thing. And I wanted to say that because we did get a lot of angry and defensive comments about, you know, us even starting to ask about purity culture.

Yeah. And we also heard from a lot of people that said, you know, I was raised with purity culture, and it's been really great for me.

Yeah, we'll get into those stories.

So, you know, for people like that, awesome. Great for you. Like, you know, you don't need to listen to any of our feedback in this episode around what to do if purity culture has felt damaging to you. And, yeah, we'll definitely get to positive impacts because there's you know, there's pluses and minuses to everything. That's how life works.

So the first sentence that I started this podcast episode off with was actually a quote, a question that we got from Instagram, and we picked it to start with because we think there is this basic idea in purity culture that sex is something beautiful, special, even sacred. And we both agree with that. Like, we do think that sex is very special.

Oh, yeah.

And so I think, you know, what this person's question was, was calling attention to is that, hey, are there ways that this central idea has gone wrong and has actually ended up having the completely opposite effect than what the intentions were?

Yeah. Just like, maybe there's more emphasis placed on, you know, what not to do in purity culture rather than emphasis placed on what. What to do or why you should do it.

Yeah. And I think the reality is, despite whatever the original intentions were in purity culture, there are a tremendous number of people who have now developed really shameful, really guilty relationships with sex, beliefs about sex. And, you know, it's had a lot of negative impacts on their sex lives. What we want to talk about today is the specific ways that we've been taught to be ashamed of and guilty about sex and how some of these beliefs have hurt so many of us. So we. We really think there's a big difference between, you know, teaching children that their body is sacred, that they should have boundaries and guidelines around with whom they're intimate, versus teaching them that sex is sinful, shameful, that having sex tarnishes them, that girls are more responsible for being the sexual gatekeepers than men are. So we're gonna get all into that. But first, we wanted to talk a little bit about our own personal stories. So neither of us were raised in purity culture. Neither of us were raised to be particularly religious, but we just wanted to share a little bit of our stories. So for me, my parents definitely taught me that sex is something special, and it's something that I should share only with people that I really care about. I definitely. Xander's pointing to himself. Yes, my parents would be very happy that we're having sex. So my parents definitely taught me that sex can bring up powerful emotions. I have a memory of my mom telling me this. It can bring up a lot of emotions, and that's why it's important to wait until you're with somebody that you care about. And so, you know, when I look back at my sex life, I feel pretty proud of the majority, the vast majority of the decisions that I have made. So for the most part, I was only intimate with people that I cared about, and the experiences that I had felt healthy, safe, and pleasurable. So, you know, like most people, like, I have a few decisions that I wish I hadn't made, but I also don't beat myself up about them. I've moved on. I learned the lesson. And, you know, I've been really gentle with myself. And I think, most importantly, I have found a partner that I care about, that I trust with all those powerful emotions that sex brings up. And, you know, the two of us have a really phenomenal sex life. So I, you know, I feel really grateful for the ways that I was taught to, you know, interact with sex. I mean, there were definitely a lot of things that my parents could have done differently, But I think, for the most part, you know, I got to grow up with a pretty healthy view of sexual decision making.

I grew up receiving much of the same general messages that Vanessa just described from my parents, though I didn't receive a ton of messages, just being honest. But, you know, that same general thing that sex is important and special and that it's best shared with someone that you really care about. So, you know, I really didn't grow up with any shame or guilt around sex or for my own desire for it, because I had never really gotten the message that. That having desire or having sex is going to be a bad thing or something that I shouldn't do. But looking back, I can really see how a lot of ideas that kind of come out of purity culture seeped into my early perspectives on sex. Because I think that these ideas, just at least in the US Are kind of culturally pervasive. Whether or not you were raised particularly religious or raised in purity culture. The biggest one is sort of this idea that any woman who is too overtly sexual is slutty. Like, I think that's very much a cousin of purity culture. Once I got to college, like, I kind of started realizing, like, you know, I knew that my friends were going to make fun of me if I hooked up with someone or if they found out that I hooked up with someone that they deemed to be too promiscuous, even though no one was judging me for my promiscuity. I mean, if anything, as a man, I was celebrated amongst my friends for, you know, any sexual exploits. But it had to be with the right person, which really feels like a really unfair double standard. Looking back and, you know, this kind of hurtful dynamic where it's, oh, yeah, like, I want to talk up any kind of flirtation or, you know, sexual encounter with someone who some woman who is deemed like a good partner. But then there were plenty of people that are like, oh, these are bad partners. You don't want to hook up with them because then everyone's going to make fun of you or it's going to make you look bad.

So since neither of us grew up in purity culture, we wanted to make sure that we got lots of stories from people who did. So again, we turned to Instagram. We got tons of real life stories from members of our community, and you're going to hear those stories sprinkled throughout the episode today.

Before we get into that, we want to give you our review of the week. This comes from Apple Podcasts. Vanessa and Xander just have a way of making sex talk not only comfortable, but entertaining. Not only is the information incredibly helpful and valuable, but it feels like you're hanging out and talking with a couple of longtime friends in which I've never met. Haha. I'm blown away with how much I'm learning from both of them and can't wait for more episodes. Vanessa and Xander, thank you so much for an amazing podcast.

Oh, what a great review.

Sweet. So if you heard that and are like, oh wait, I haven't left a review for the podcast, then get over to Apple Podcasts or anywhere else you can leave a review. Apple is definitely the best for us. Leave us a great review. Give us five stars. We would love it. It really helps us. Seriously, that's the best way for us to get in front of new people and get more people to hear our message. Thank you in advance.

All right, so let's get into what exactly is purity culture? Purity culture is a subculture evangelical Christianity. It was especially popular in the 90s, but it's still pretty popular today. Like I mentioned at the beginning of the episode, the major belief behind purity culture is that sex should be saved until marriage. So you want to stay pure. That's where the whole purity culture comes from. You want to stay pure until you're married. And there are a number of different events and symbols that are used in purity culture, like purity pledges, where you make a pledge that you're going to wait till marriage. Purity rings. You wear the ring to show that you're waiting till marriage. And purity dances. Other than this belief that sex before marriage is a sin, purity culture also says that your worth as a human being is really tied to your purity. And there's this idea that nobody will want you if you've had sex.

Here are Some of the stories we heard about this on Instagram. So one person said in school, we had to watch skits where girls were often compared to crumpled up roses and chewed up gum. What man would want to marry chewed up gum? We heard a lot of people talk about this chewed up gum metaphor, and I think that's a tough one. When you're younger, you know that. That makes a lot of sense. You're like, yeah, you know, I put the gum in my mouth, it tastes great, and then half an hour later, it doesn't taste like much. And, you know, I think the younger you are, it's easy to get these ideas into your head and not really look at them critically necessarily. And I could see how damaging that would be. I would feel horrible if you were thinking about yourself like that.

I mean, these. Yeah, these stories broke my heart. They really did. Here's another one. I remember our youth pastor passing around a rose, and each person had to pull off a petal and pass it along. By the end, the rose obviously had no petals left and was deemed ruined and ugly. Worthless. That's how we would be if we had sex. We'd be worthless and ugly people who no one would want any longer. I mean, I honestly teared up reading this one. Just imagining myself being, you know, a young girl already going through so many insecurities and challenges and concerns like, that's a tough age. And then being compared to a crumpled up rose, to a chewed up piece of gum to be told that you are gonna be trash. I mean, like, here's the perfect example of how purity culture has gone wrong. How did we turn from this idea of like, hey, sex is something sacred and beautiful. Your body is a temple that should only be shared with special people. To you become trash if you are intimate.

Yeah. And I mean, speaking of where things went wrong, I think one of the big challenges is that people are very uncomfortable talking in, you know, really clear, honest terms about sex. What sex is and what about sex makes it really beautiful and sacred, especially when you're talking to kids or young teens. And so it's really easy to use metaphors instead because you don't have to say these awkward things. You have to say these words that you yourself are probably not very comfortable saying.

You.

And that gets compounded when you're younger. Those kind of metaphors can be really powerful because you also don't know. All you can do is say, oh, well, it must be like this rose. And this rose looks pretty ugly with.

No petals on it, and nobody would want It. Okay, so purity culture can also include ideas like, you must dress modestly.

Sex is for making babies only.

Masturbation is evil.

You don't ever talk about sex.

Pleasure is sinful.

Anything other than heterosexual sex is unacceptable.

And even your thoughts should be pure because you can be unfaithful or unwholesome in your own mind.

And that's a really challenging one, especially because, you know, we know from a psychological perspective, you are not in control of your thoughts, especially when it comes to dreams and I mean, like, just general thoughts when you're awake.

Puberty. Yeah.

Yeah. If you can. If you can tell me you went through puberty and were completely in control of your thoughts, kudos to you. I was not.

Yeah. So the other thing that's really challenging about purity culture is that it focuses more on women than on men. So especially the thing about dressing modestly, about your worthiness. You know, no man would want you. You know, women are really taught to be the sexual gatekeepers. We'll get to more stories about this in a minute. But a lot of women said, you know, they felt pressure, that men couldn't control themselves. So it was up to the woman to make sure she was dressing modestly, she was putting the brakes on sex or any sort of activity, you know, if it was getting too close to.

Sex or anything, that just might make him, you know, have any unpure thoughts.

Yeah. So, you know, both men and women were supposed to stay pure until marriage, but there was definitely more of a lax attitude around boys. You know, they can't control themselves. It's just so strong for them and really putting all of the pressure on the girls. So now we're going to talk about how purity culture can affect your sex life. So we're going to start off with something brand new to the podcast. We have some voice messages, so we set up a hotline. We also asked people to send in voicemails over Instagram, and we're going to share some of the stories that people sent in. I think it's just really cool to be able to hear people's real voices talking about their real stories in their own words. Yeah. Here is one to start us off.

I grew up in a more conservative church, and I was taught that sex outside of marriage, regardless of context and intent, is sinful and damns you and separates you from God. So when I ended up doing this during college, I felt like I had no connection spiritually, like I wasn't worth having that connection. I left the church for a while, which ended up being a good thing for me. But I was also suicidal for a time because I felt like I was not worthy of life. I wanted to live, but felt that I didn't deserve to.

So, yeah, you see what I mean about these just incredibly powerful stories that people shared.

Yeah.

Yeah. You know, one of the main themes that kept coming up over and over again in these stories with this feeling that purity culture created an environment of complete shame and guilt around sex. And that environment lasted for a lifetime.

Yeah, I mean, because the whole message is you have to do something exactly this one certain way. And for most people, I don't think that there was really any message given around. Okay, so what happens if you do quote slip up? I'm putting slip up in quotes, but, you know, there's no talking about, okay, so if it doesn't go exactly the way we're telling you it should go, then what happens? And so people are just left thinking. All people are left with are all these metaphors that they've received about what it's going to be like. And, you know, they already feel like they can't talk about it because they've been told. One of the messages is, you know, don't talk about sex. You know, definitely don't talk about it with any of your partners because they might judge you. And so you're just left feeling like, well, what do I do? I guess I just must not be worthy.

So here's another quote that we got from Instagram. Purity culture made me fear sex, even though I'm married and followed all the rules. And I still get anxious about sex, and I still feel dirty in church. The next dynamic that came up a lot was this feeling that purity culture takes away your agency over your own body and your own sexuality, and in particular for women.

So one person said purity culture meant, my mom wouldn't let me get a test done for endometriosis because it would break my hymen.

Another person said, as a wife, you have to do whatever your husband wants.

And it is my role to please my husband so that he doesn't cheat.

So you'll see in all three of these examples, this idea of, like, you not being in control of your own body, of your own wants and needs, even your own medical needs, not being paid attention to, because the ultimate, you know, preference, the priority is being put on purity culture.

Yes. Something else or someone else is more important than you. Your body, your safety, your health.

It also leads to this feeling that the female body is really salacious. So we've Talked a little bit about how purity culture puts more pressure on women and definitely on their bodies.

One person said they've been a lifelong member of a very conservative religion. I was an early bloomer. I've always had a large chest and a big booty. From my earliest teen years, like 12 or 13, I've been on the receiving end of comments from women and men, including my own father, accusing me of trying to be sexy or seductive while wearing normal clothes like a T shirt and jeans. The message I received was that I was pornographic and inappropriate just for existing. There was no neutral state of existence for me. I was always seducing men, whether I was trying or not. That's what I internalized. As I grew into my late teens, I began wearing scarves obsessively to cover my chest, even in the middle of summer. I had an impressive collection of scarves. I never wore shorts, even on the hottest days, only long skirts and loose pants. I truly believe that my own comfort came second to the comfort of a male passerby who may be tempted by my body.

That's an intense one to read.

Yeah.

I mean, these all are, but, yeah, this idea that, like, even someone random on the street, his, like, his impressions are more important than your own comfort in your own body. And especially as somebody saying, you know, I was an early bloomer, like, I'm not trying to go around seducing people at age 12, but that your body can be seen as this sinful, terrible thing, and you have no control over it.

No control at all, Especially of what age you hit puberty.

Another quote said, I grew up thinking it was my responsibility to dress in a way that was modest so that boys wouldn't stumble.

I felt like I was responsible for men's sins just by existing and potentially inspiring their lust.

If I wasn't modest enough simply by existing, you're sinning.

Yeah. That's a tough message. It's a tough message to receive. And if you, you know, receiving that from a young age, as we've seen from so many people who wrote in that, can. That can have a huge impact. That can have a really traumatic impact psychologically.

Another one of the impacts of purity culture is that it doesn't provide any sex education. So Xander sort of mentioned this earlier. You get told what not to do, but there's no open or honest conversation about what to do. So here's another story from Instagram.

Growing up in a Catholic household, I was raised with the values of abstinence. So I had a purity ring, and I Was going to wait until marriage. I didn't even have my first kiss until my senior year of high school. Going into college, I just felt so behind and I didn't even know any basics and little things that weren't even full sex, you would say. I just wish I had that education on in a strong and positive manner instead of all about abstinence. Because then when I was ready to start exploring and trying new things with boys, boys, like I had no clue what I was doing. So yeah, I just really wish growing up it was taught for everyone instead of just what you see on social media because then it led to false realities of what sex is. And I, yeah, I wish it could be just more educational. So I really appreciate your channel and all that I'm learning.

Fortunately, it is never too late to learn accurate, realistic, honest information about sexual, how sex works, all of these terms. But man, what I really wanted to say was I can empathize so much about just like not knowing certain terms, not knowing how things work. You know, I, I could, I have this somehow really strong memory of being in elementary school, like maybe in fifth grade probably and like hearing some kids throwing around the word like masturbate on the playground. And I just knew like there is something really powerful about this word. I have no idea what it means. The way that they're saying it. It is not safe for me to ask anybody what it means. I just have to sit around and pray to God that I'm going to figure it out or someone's going to let some other information slip so I can figure out what it is. And then I'm just imagining carrying that forward, but with everything relating to sex and just being like, oh my God, what am I going to do? I don't know. My friends are having a conversation and I don't understand 50% what they're saying. It's like speaking a foreign language.

Another thing that people spoke about was that purity culture prevented them from having self reflection and exploration of their own sexual desires, needs and fantasies.

Someone said the idea of sex being something that was created by God to inherently please him that is replenishing the earth, and so it had to be done under the confines of his rules was damaging to me. It didn't allow for the personal idea of what sex meant to me to be allowed in the picture.

People also specifically called out that it prevented an exploration of masturbation. And women in particular called this out for saying that it made them have a really difficult time later in life knowing what brings them pleasure. What brings them orgasm, even just understanding their bodies. So here's another story from Instagram about purity culture.

So I grew up Catholic, and I remember in middle school at one of our religious education days discussing sins and what we should be confessing when we speak to the priest in confession. And one of the mouthier boys in the group brought up masturbation, and the teacher confirmed that, yes, that was a sin. We should not be doing it, it was wrong, and that if we did it, we did need to confess to the priest to be forgiven. And I remember this creating just such a negative view about myself, because it was something I had been doing at that point in time for quite a while. And I became afraid to talk about my body with my mom and ask questions. And then I think this really hindered me from being able to have safe sex or, like, ask questions about sex and really going to the Internet to find my answers, because I was just not something the adults in my life talked about, even though I learned later that it was. It was just the church that told me that I shouldn't be talking about it. And my first boyfriend asked me if I masturbated, and I couldn't tell him that I did because I felt like it was wrong even though we were having sex at this point in time. So purity culture really impacted, like, my relationship with my body and thinking I was dirty and that I could only exist sexually for a partner, not for myself. And I took me a long time to get over that. I think through college and just learning about sexuality in general and meeting more people that were open about their bodies and their experiences is when I really overcame this.

Someone else told us, touching genitals, your own or someone else's made you unclean. I had a hard time being okay with even washing myself in the shower because I thought I was sinning.

Yeah. Can you even imagine that? Like, something as basic as just cleaning your own body, and we actually hear about this all the time, that people feel uncomfortable touching their genitals even though all they're doing is just trying to get clean in the shower. Another thing that we heard a lot about purity culture was that purity culture talks a lot about how bad premarital sex is, but then it doesn't give any suggestions, advice, even guidelines about what to do when you do get married. So it really doesn't prepare couples to have sex for the first time or to have a healthy relationship with sexual once they're married. So so many people wrote in and they told us, you know, I spent my Entire life being told that sex was dirty and sinful, that I would be impure if I even thought anything sexual. And then all of a sudden, you know, it's my wedding night. I know it's okay for me to have sex, but I can't flip a switch and just forget about all that stuff. I spent my entire life being taught. So it is really ironic, I think, that, you know, the idea behind purity culture is to encourage people to wait until they're married, yet it doesn't give them any tools or resources to actually have healthy, pleasurable, enjoyable sex, even when they do follow the rules.

Yeah, I think we heard from a lot of people that said that they understood, at least intellectually, that sex was okay in the eyes of their religion, in the eyes of their church, their parents, their pastor, whatever, that it was okay after marriage. But the problem is that, you know, 99% of the airtime previous to that when talking about sex was about how negative all the negative aspects around sex before marriage, and really barely any focus or maybe no focus on the positives of sex after marriage. And we heard from a couple people that said that they did have a much more balanced experience and they sort of transitioned into married life much more easily. But I think the vast majority of people just received, like, 99 negative messages for every one positive message. And that takes its toll over time. One person about this topic said, so when you're about to be married, you go in not knowing anything about sex. You don't know how to talk about sex without feeling shame, and you just assume that sex should be like in the movies. So when it doesn't work on your wedding night and it just feels awful and you feel stupid and you don't know anyone to talk to because you didn't know it would not happen naturally.

So definitely go back and listen to our episode about should sex happen naturally? But, yeah, I mean, you know, so many people wrote in with really awful stories about their wedding night or the early stages in their marriage, or even decades later into their marriage, of still struggling to figure out how to have a healthy sex life, even by following the rules. Okay, so this next category that we're going to talk about is really heavy. So want to give a little bit of a trigger warning that we're going to be talking about harmful and even abusive relationships and experiences. So if you do not want to listen to this, please just go ahead and skip the next few minutes of the podcast. But we really wanted to share these stories because they're important. These stories need to be heard. And we're hoping that by sharing these stories, like, you know, even if this helps one other person just relate to this and feel like they're not the only person who went through this, you know. We hope that helps. I was completely immersed in Christianity my entire childhood throughout high school and into college. I attended many lock ins about remaining pure in middle school and wore a worth the weight ring. I even shared my testimony in high school about plans to remain a virgin until marriage. But then I got a boyfriend and my senior year, after having been with him for a few years, I caved and had sex. We broke up soon after and I spiraled. I did anything and everything to try to win him back into my life because I needed him to be my one and only. I didn't date again for four years because of how unworthy I felt and due to all of my self hate and shame, I didn't treat myself well through relationships in my early 20s. It took me until age 29 to start really understanding self love and acceptance. I feel so sad for the girl I was who didn't have any of that thanks to the shame of purity culture. And this next one is really challenging. So again, just a little warning for anybody who's not feeling prepared to hear a tough story right now. I had a lesson in my church class for girls aged 16 through 18 and it went something like this. The teacher presents the class with a beautiful cake. She talks about how long she took to prepare it and decorate it, how she made everything from scratch to share with us. She asked if we would like to have some and we of course all said yes. She then poured a cup of dirt onto it and squished it in with her hands, demolishing it for good measure. She poured some water on it and mixed it around on the cake platter. She then asked us if we would like some now. We said no while wiping her hands. She told us that the cake was our bodies and that we needed to keep our bodies pristine and chaste for our future husbands AKA read between the lines and she was saying anybody worth marrying won't want you if you have any sexual encounter before you're married. She then brought out an identical cake for us all to eat and I remember eating it in the corner, tears streaming down my face because my abusive boyfriend at the time had ignored my request to stop a week before and had raped me. I remember consigning myself to a loveless, abusive relationship thinking that no one would ever want me after that. And it took me Years to undo it.

Oh, man, that's tough. Yeah, it's really sad.

It's heartbreaking. So we're going to move into our final category of some of the ways that purity culture has affected people. And the last thing that we wanted to speak to is that all this that we've just shared about purity culture, the reality is that it's actually not that effective. So there was a study published in the journal Pediatrics in 2009 that found that the sexual behavior of teens who had taken a purity pledge did not differ from that of closely matched non pledgers. So five years after taking the pledge, 82% of pledgers denied even having pledged in the first place. So, basically, people who said that they would wait till marriage didn't actually wait till marriage. You know, the rates compared to people who never took that pledge were identical.

And also claimed that they hadn't actually done that a couple of years later.

Yeah, the vast majority, 82%. So another study from 2005 that was published in the Journal of Adolescent Health found that the sexually transmitted infection rate of those who had taken a purity pledge did not differ from the non pledgers. So equal rates of sexually transmitted infections, which is another thing that purity culture claims to do, you know, is to prevent people from catching sexually transmitted infections, because these are dirty and unclean. They're not.

And here's one other story from someone that comes kind of helps illustrate ways in which beardy culture is not particularly effective, especially around how you perceive and enjoy or not enjoy sex. So they said my family was very religious, and purity was extremely important to them because sex or anything similar was basically forbidden before marriage. I feel like it created this pattern where I'm more excited when something is wrong. But now that I'm married and I love my husband with my whole heart, but that excitement has diminished, and now my overall sex drive has gone down. Because sex is now, right?

Yeah. So obviously, just a little anecdotal story there. But another way of illustrating that the intents behind purity culture haven't ended up coming to fruition. We do want to present a balanced look at purity culture in this episode. So we wanted to share some of the positive responses that we got from Instagram about purity culture. Like we said earlier, it wasn't all just negative responses. So we want to share some of those positive ones.

I think purity culture is a good thing. I feel like sex is such a spiritual experience, and to have that with multiple people can definitely do some inner damage. Did we have a massive learning curve once we were married, you bet. But doesn't everyone, once they have sex with someone for the first time.

I do totally agree with that. There's a learning curve to having sex with, you know, anyone new for the first time. I don't agree with the part that having sex with multiple people can do inner damage, but I do agree that it's. There's a resetting process.

Yeah, it can do inner damage if certain things happen, you know, depending on the situation, of course, but done in a good, positive, healthy way, probably is not going to do any. But yeah, I definitely agree with the fact that, yeah, we talk about this a lot. Just because you had really great sex with someone in the past, that experience doesn't necessarily translate to your current or to a future partner. Like, everyone is different in terms of what they like. And so when you start having sex consistently with someone, there is definitely always a learning curve.

Here's the next one. I grew up in a very religious home with a purity standard. I see it as a positive. I know there are a lot of people trying to break out, saying it negatively impacted them. However, for me, it was a very special time when I got married and we had both upheld our purity until after the ceremony. I have always felt that it taught me and other kids who grew up similarly, with no regrets, to bridle our passions and to be in more control over our thoughts and actions. I feel like my sexual desires are pure with love and not lust. I will be raising our children the same way. We will never teach that sex is bad or that thoughts or desires are bad, but that purity will be important in our family. So I appreciate the distinction at the end there, you know, that not talking about sex in a bad way, trying to, you know, evoke shame or guilt. But I guess, you know, reading over this one, what stands out at me is can we rebrand purity culture and not use the word purity? Because, I mean, obviously this word was chosen intentionally, you know, to have, like, an emotional weight to it. But, yeah, could we have it focus more on the positive aspects of how beautiful sex is? How great it can be to share it with somebody that you really care about, but without promoting this idea that you're dirty, impure, unwholesome, you know, if you don't wait.

Yeah. And speaking of purity culture, rebrand. One huge argument for that is the word purity. Pure. That's an absolute that implies an all or nothing. Like, pure is a hundred percent of something, like not diluted, whatever. So it sets up a very difficult to attain standard where Someone. What if someone were 99% pure? Like oh that's. Is that not enough? So it makes it, it sets up this whole dynamic or with a lot of the, the quotes that we read before where it was like, you know, one little slip up, I'm putting that in quotes, you know, one little mess up and all of a sudden all that work is for not. Whereas, you know, if it could be rebranded that. It's like being as pure as you can.

Perhaps as pure as you can. Wow.

Pure as you can culture. Almost purity cult. Almost pure culture.

I don't know. I'm still for changing the word.

Alright, so another one was. I think that purity culture has an amazing cause. I grew up and I'm still Christian. However, like a lot of things in the church, it's usually delivered in an ineffective way. Women, as that's all I can speak for, are just constantly told their value and not to do it before marriage without really understanding any of it. I'm also left wondering how could you truly understand the deep connections and emotions associated with sex without having been through that before? It's a tough one. More girls need to value their bodies. That is a million percent true for sure. I teach 13 to 14 year olds and they give it up for any attention. So I think this needs to be the focus with relating sex before marriage, casual sex, etc. Afterwards.

And the final story. I was proud to choose participation in true love weights as a young person and in all honesty it gave me a healthy self confidence about my own boundaries and values. As I grew up I felt it was a choice I made on my own without pressure from the church, but rather supportive community. However, I see now how that really wasn't the case for everyone. I'm a youth pastor now and I feel so strongly making sure my students know that their sexuality should never be something to be ashamed of. The church has been responsible for hurt, shame and fear around talking about sex and sexuality for far too long. I work hard to think through what it means to have a healthy faith and healthy sexuality and how my faith can encourage and inspire me instead of limit.

Wow, I love that one.

I know.

I want to give some huge props to this person. It sounds like this person has a great church.

Can we get them to do the purity culture rebrand? Yeah, seriously, you can be the new fearless leader of it.

Seriously. I just, I think it's so great how they kind of identify that for them it was great and it sounds like for them it was great because they had a really supportive community And a healthy way of talking about purity. And maybe more of a balanced way.

Yeah, like, more about boundaries and values and like self knowledge, like understanding yourself and what you need and what you want, what feels good to you. Like, I love the way that they described that.

Yeah. And especially just identifying that it can be really good for some people, but for other people it is going to be harmful. So not setting it up like, this is something that you must do. It's like, if this is something that feels like it can work for you, then great.

And I also love that last sentence too. Like, how can my faith encourage and inspire me instead of limit. Like, what a beautiful way to talk about sexuality and the relationship between sexuality and religion.

Yeah, definitely. I mean, I think that's like, what spirituality should be in general. Like, how. How can spirituality inspire you rather than limit you?

Now we want to transition into talking about what to do if you were raised with purity culture and it had negative or harmful impacts on you. So if you were listening to some of the stories that we've shared earlier in this episode and nodding along, crying along with them, you know, we don't want to leave you hanging, just focusing on the negative impacts. Like, we want to talk about what you can do. We have eight steps here that we're going to walk you through.

And don't worry, you don't have to memorize all of these. We got a website for you. We'll give you the link at the end where you can get all the steps. Just listen and try to take in as much as you can. Don't start taking notes unless you really want to. I won't stop you.

Step number one is to recognize that this is not your fault. So we think it's just so important to remember that none of us were born feeling ashamed of or guilty about sex. We were all taught to be. And I think a lot of these beliefs, they have a way of worming their way into the depths of our being so that we feel like, I just am shame, I just am guilt. But the reality is, no, you're not. That was put there. So I think this can be such a powerful step of recognizing like, this is not your fault. You did not do this.

And I think a lot of people intellectually understand that. But what gets missed, I think, is even though you intellectually understand something, doesn't mean you emotionally understand it. And to emotionally understand something, you have to really repeat that to yourself a lot. If you find yourself having kind of negative impacts of purity culture, setting a reminder on your Phone to just give you a little pop up every day that says, this is not your fault. You were not born feeling ashamed of sex. And just like remind you, saying that out loud to yourself once a day, that can really help drive that messages. Because think about the number of times you received these negative messages in your past. You gotta kind of counteract that with bombarding yourself with positive messages.

Step number two is to recognize that you're not alone. So when we were planning out this episode, this is specifically why we picked so many stories to share. Because we really wanted to drive home the point that you are not alone in this. So I think again, when we're dealing with such difficult, uncomfortable feelings, it's very easy for us to feel like we're the only ones going through it. We're really damaged in some way. And so I think just recognizing, like, there are so many people that this has affected, you are definitely not alone. That can be just such a powerful thing.

And also recognize that a lot of the messages you received have led to you feeling alone. Because you've received messages very likely that you shouldn't talk about this. Oh, you need to confess this, you need to confess that. And very often that sets up a dynamic where you go, okay, well, then if I just don't acknowledge that it ever happened, then I don't need to do anything. And that creates this very lonely place for you. So not only have other people experienced similar things, but just recognizing you have kind of been taught to treat yourself as alone in this, even if you know other people have had similar experiences.

Step three is to get more clarity on exactly what the messages were that you received from Purity Culture. This can be a painful step because a lot of us don't want to have to sit with the specific messages that we were taught, but we think that this is actually really important for you to do so. We'd even recommend that you write out a list of them. Like, what were the specific things that you were taught? Write out the specific beliefs. And that leads us right into step four, where we're not just going to leave you with this really nightmarish list of beliefs that you were taught. The next thing that you want to do is really take a look at those beliefs and identify for each one which ones are serving you and which ones are blocking you from having a healthy and pleasurable sex life. And is there any nuance in that? So, for example, you know, this is what we kind of keep coming back to, like this idea that purity culture, you know, it teaches you that Your body is something, you know, special and sacred. That's a great message. You know, there's nothing wrong with that. So maybe that in and of itself, you're like, yeah, I want to believe that more deeply, or I want to fully embody that.

Yeah. But when that idea is combined with a number of other ideas, all of a sudden it doesn't feel good. So that's why writing this down is important. So you can start teasing out, like, oh, do I really dislike this concept? Or do I dislike this concept because I have it associated with these four other ones that are just straight up harmful to me?

And you also want to look for nuances. So, for example, you might think, okay, I don't want to have to wait until I'm married to have sex. I don't necessarily want to wait until I'm in love with somebody. But maybe I want to be in a committed relationship trying to find, like, the shades of gray in it. Like, what is it that feels good to you? And you're not going to be able to write out this perfect, crystal clear, These are the exact rules that I follow no matter what. But this is just this process of giving you more agency and deciding, like, yeah, I want to hold on to that, or I want to change this one around in a different sort of way. Then that leads us into step five, which is now you're going to think about what beliefs do you want to have about your body, about sex? So you're also going to write these down as well. So you might have started uncovering some of them in looking at the beliefs that you don't want to believe anymore. But there might also be things that are totally different or unrelated as well. You can really do a deep dive with this exercise, or it can also be an exercise that you come back to at different points in the future. But, like, what are the specific things that you want to believe about your body and sex? So take purity culture completely out of it. What do you want to believe?

Yeah, think about just, what do you want to believe right now? Like, give yourself permission to allow these beliefs to change or morph over time. Like, this isn't about figuring out what is my plan, my set of beliefs forever, and then I have to stick to it, like Vanessa just said before. But, you know, this is a great one to come back to over time. And that's a nice thing about writing it all down, is that you get to see, okay, well, what did I say last year? Let me go through each of these. Do I still want to Believe this thing. Do I want to adjust it slightly? Do I want to cross it out? Do I want to write a new one?

Yeah. Your lifelong journey of having a healthy relationship with sex.

Yeah.

So step six is to then remind yourself of your desired goals and your desired beliefs every time a negative message comes up. So we talked earlier in the podcast about how we don't have control over our thoughts. So you're going to have random or intrusive thoughts pop into your head that are going to be about how sex is shameful and sinful and you shouldn't do that. You don't have any control over that. But what you do have control over is redirecting your energy in that moment to a belief that does serve you. So you hear something pop into your head and you're like, oh, my God, not this again. But take the time to take power back over that moment and say, hey, I want to remind myself that I'm in control of my body. I get to decide what I want to do with my body or whatever else your specific message is. But giving yourself that reminder.

Yeah, said super simply, you are not in control of your thoughts. You are in control of what you do with your thought. Do you continue dwelling on that thought or do you, like Vanessa said, instead of dwelling on it and beating yourself up about it, do you remind yourself, okay, I'm sensing that thought and I'm now reminding myself I have different desires and different goals now.

And Sandra mentioned a minute ago this idea of repetition, how, you know, we've had so many repetitions of negative messages. Now we need to work on to how having many repetitions of positive messages. So this is really what you're going to want to focus on. Now step seven is to change the narrative around sex. So we really want to encourage you to watch, to read, to listen to sex positive content. So you're already doing step seven just by listening to this podcast.

Congratulations. Yeah, we got a comment from someone kind of just about this. Working through it has been a challenge. Things I've done is go to therapy, talk to my best friend who is raised at the same church as me, while we try to break this mindset and follow you guys on Instagram. Honestly, I've grown so much and had great chats with my husband since finding your account. I'm not there yet and breaking away, but I feel like I'm well on my way.

And finally, step eight is to share your story. So this might be something that it takes you a really long time until you feel comfortable doing. It that's totally fine. This may be a step that you decide you don't ever really want to take, and that's okay, too. But we do think there's something really powerful about sharing your story. I mean, the quote that Xander just read alluded to that a little bit that that person shared with their best friend who was raised in the same church as they were. Here's another quote that we got from after writing this, I was able to share with my spouse that I had written to you about our experiences with purity culture. This opened up a whole conversation of things that we hadn't talked about in our whole marriage. By sharing my story, I felt I'm able to take back my power that was denied to me for so long. I get to write my own narrative instead of having it written for me. We are so much more on the same page and see some areas for both of us to work through. We're going to keep talking about this, continuing the conversation. We're planning to go to therapy soon. I'm excited about our future, our reconnection, and this newfound clarity.

That's great.

Yes, we are all about you taking back your power and writing your own story.

Yeah. Spoiler alert. If you go. If you start seeing a therapist, one of the things that your therapist will very likely recommend to you is to start journaling. Writing things down. Because writing things down has a way of helping you organize your thoughts, kind of process what you're thinking. Because you know in your mind, your thoughts are moving at a mile a minute. You can think of all kinds of things and arguments and counter arguments and hypotheses and whatever. And when you write it down, it kind of forces you to organize everything and really decide, like, do I actually agree with this or not? And, you know, you write down the more finalized formed thought. So I think that's one reason why it's just so helpful to write stuff down and then also to share it, because that really just solidifies everything for you. Moving on to some listener questions about purity culture. The first one is how do I explain it to my partner who did not grow up with purity culture?

So we are lucky in that we were raised pretty similarly around, you know, religious beliefs and sexual beliefs and all that. But there are definitely lots of relationships that where partners were raised incredibly differently. So I think the best thing to do is listen to this podcast episode with your partner and use it as a way to open up conversations. So pause it when we talk about stories that you really resonate with and tell your partner Yep. Like, yeah, that was exactly what I went through. Or my story was a little bit different, but this is what it was like for me. But that way you really get to share your story with your partner and help let them in, help them see.

Yeah, don't use this podcast as a substitute for telling your story, but use it as a way to describe what your story was. Use it as a conversation starter. Just like Vanessa said. Like, this is stuff I did experience. This is stuff I didn't experience. What was this like for you? Did you ever have anything like this? It's just a great conversation starter. Play, pause, talk. Play, pause, talk. All right, the next question was, my husband is the only one I've been with. How do I get past wondering what else is out there?

If you did follow the rules, you waited until you were married, you know, you wind up only having sex with one person. And I think it's a very normal human reaction to kind of wonder, like, what else is out there? I think we have that even about dating, you know, like, could I meet a different person who I could have a really beautiful and full and, you know, wonderful life with? So this is definitely, you know, one of the impacts of it. I do want to say, too, though, like, this is something that I think most married people deal with at one point in their lives. Like, regardless of how many people you did have sex with or did not have sex with before you got married, like, we all just sort of have that. Like, what if.

Yeah, if you. If you are monogamous, whether or not you've had sex with one person before your. Your spouse, or a thousand people after, say, like, 10 years of monogamy, it's still going to have been a very long time since you were with anyone else. So totally normal. If those type of thoughts come up, whether you are monogamous or not, whether you have had sex with only one person or not, that is just normal across the board.

So I think the idea here is you're not ever going to stop wondering what else is out there. It's okay to let yourself wonder, but then redirect your energy and attention to the relationship that you have and all the things that you love about it and are grateful for about it.

And I think it's also totally okay and healthy to mourn the fact that you aren't going to have any more experiences with anybody else if that's where your decision is. Despite the fact that I am wondering what else is out there, I am committing myself to this person. It is okay to Mourn sort of lost possibilities. That's something that can happen in this situation or even in a situation where someone has been with a lot of other people. I think most people have friends that have struggled, you know, getting into a long term relationship. Like, do I really want to be committed or do I want to still play the field or whatever you want to call it. It is totally okay to mourn. The fact being committed to someone being in a monogamous relationship means that you are not going to get to have those other experiences. All right, so the last question is, what do we do if I see purity culture as something that harmed me deeply, but my husband thinks it's a good thing.

Oh, this is going to be a tricky one. So, you know, this is sort of making me think about the quote from the pastor that we read earlier that was talking about, like, my experience with it was positive, but I can now see that other people didn't have positive experiences with it. So that could be a nice way to discuss it. Like, there's space for both of you to have each had your different relationship with purity culture, and your experiences don't have to cancel out or outweigh each other's. I mean, I would say, though, like, it's important for your partner in particular for your husband to see the ways that it did harm you and to recognize, like, he can have, you know, his own relationship with it and he can see the ways that it harmed you. And I think maybe, you know, talking about those specific effects that it had on you and really, you know, having him listen to and take that in could be something that's. That's really powerful. But I think this is just one of those tricky situations in relationships where we have to sit with the reality that your experience and your partner's experience can be wildly, wildly different.

And I think this is also a great opportunity for both of you to just write out what are your beliefs about sexual. What is it that you want to believe about sex? And you may find that you guys agree on a lot more stuff than you think if you set aside the term purity culture and just focus on the beliefs.

Yeah, we were talking earlier about rebranding purity culture. So maybe this is your opportunity to create your own set of beliefs, your own manifest about sex and what a healthy sexuality would look like.

All right, so like I said before, you did not need to take any notes on all of those steps. I think those are something you're going to want to refer back to over time if you feel like purity culture has damaged you and you're trying to recover a bit. So we've got all of those steps written down for you. It is@vmtherapy.com episode eight. That's the number eight. You can also use the link in our show notes to get to that page and you'll get kind of a summary of what we talked about here and all those steps written out step by step.

All right, well, that wraps up our episode of Pillow Talks, all about purity culture. This has been a heavy one. It's been a really big topic to cover. So thank you. If you're still hanging in here with us listening to this. And we just really hope that this episode leaves you feeling hopeful and inspirational, inspired, that you can take control back, take agency back over your own body, over your own sexuality, that you can rewrite your story and you can decide what feels good and healthy and right for you in your own sex life.

Yeah. And I just want to emphasize, you absolutely can do this. We get messages every single day from people who started following us. Whether they get our emails, whether they watch our stories on Instagram, or just listen, listen to the podcast. Hearing about this stuff, learning about this stuff and talking about this stuff just slowly can really start to undo the damage that the past has caused.

And we finally want to call out our hotline. So if you enjoyed hearing some of the audio clips in this episode, you can always leave us a message at 774pillow1774, p I l l o w1. We have our very own hotline, so you can leave us a voicemail if you have any questions, any topics that you want us to cover in an upcoming episode.

And we promise we will not pick up the phone when it rings.

Yes, it goes straight through to voicemail. It will not even. No chance of anyone picking it up. Make sure to join us next week when we will be talking about how often people really have sex. So thanks so much for listening and we will see you guys next week.

Weekend.