Co-Creating Culture, Vulnerability in Leadership, and Hiring for Heart with Amy Somerville

Hey, rockstars. Today's episode will help you become the kind of team member that every leader wants to keep forever. You're going to learn how great company culture is really built, how leaders think, and most importantly, how you can stand out in any team. Amy Somerville is a genius. She's one of the most powerful leaders I've ever met. She breaks down why curiosity beats perfection, how, how to communicate with confidence, and how to avoid burnout by understanding your client, their expectations, and the culture you're stepping into. So if you want to grow, lead, or make a bigger impact, this episode is your roadmap. Let's jump in. Amy Somerville, I am so excited to have you on the podcast today. Thank you so much for taking time out of your schedule to be with us.

Oh, my gosh, I'm so excited to be here. Honored. Thank you for inviting me.

We had the privilege of meeting at Brian Wright's three day MBA back in August. And to say that we had a connection was an understatement. I felt like I was meeting my twin sister from, you know, I mean, I just feel like we were so aligned in terms of how we viewed people and business and all of that. And man, it was such a pleasure. I can't believe I got you on the show. Why don't you introduce yourself and talk a little bit about, you know, set the table just for a few minutes about who you are, what you're passionate about.

Okay, great. Yeah. And I will say I completely agree. It was one of those moments of how do we not know each other? How our entire lives and not known each other, but are so connected and so, you know, in our belief systems and our heart and our drive and our passion, the impact that we want to have. So I'm honored to be here. Amy Somerville. I am the founder and CEO of Moment of Clarity, which is a leadership and consulting company that. That I formed several years ago. I have been, I would say, in the personal development, human growth, human transformation side of, or we'll say we'll call it an industry or passion plays. Most of my career, so 20 plus years, it was tied to real estate on the front end. So I was an executive at Re Max World headquarters for many. I also worked with Brian Buffini and Buffini and Company in the coaching and development space. Again, touching entrepreneurs primarily in areas that touch real estate. And then more recently was the CEO of Success Enterprises, which is home to 130-year-old brand that a lot of people know, Success Magazine, which also included success coaching and success events And I've had the opportunity to serve entrepreneurs, which I would say is my passion. I'm passionate about serving people who, you know, are looking to have a massive impact. I think my calling, my mission statement actually is to impact and improve the lives of others and no matter what that means. Right. So it could be in leadership, it could be personally, it could be with their families. It could be in just connecting great people together and seeing what, what people, you know, develop, you know, together with. With complementary skill sets or passion points. So I guess I'm just ultimately passionate about help helping people transform their lives and reach the. Their highest potential that help them be as successful as they choose to be.

Yeah, I love how you say that. You know, in Rockstars, as, as we're talking to Amy, I want you to understand this is a real force of leadership. With Amy, you've got an interesting background in that you've been an executive of very large companies. Remax was how big when you were an executive in that space?

Oh, my gosh, 125,000 agents worldwide.

So, I mean, so I want you guys to hear that, you know, Amy's background has been on both sides of it. She's been an entrepreneur for very massively successful companies and then leader of companies that led in training leaders. You know, success being a good example in that space. We're not going to name drop, but any of the bigger names out there in terms of development that have books or major, major followings. She has rubbed elbows with these individuals and very humbly has been working to help support not just like, you know, your clients, but your teams as well. That is something that I see you as is this kind of a mix of being able to do both, because usually a business owner focuses more internally on their teams and. And then you have someone who's more out facing. You've done a lot of the both of those things between your podcast and that. So, you know, for. For you as a leader now, as you're looking at developing leadership, what is your vision for the future? What is it that you want to create in the world? Oh, gosh, you know, a nice, light, you know, softball question. Wow.

Yeah, big time. That's like, don't mess this up. You know, again, I think even if it is in the space, I think I'll always be passionate about helping entrepreneurs who have a big dream, who have a big goal. I will always be passionate about helping leaders become better leaders and actually, you know, team members becoming great leaders within their own. I think you and I agree on the sentiment that leadership is not a title, it is a behavior, it is a practice. And so, you know, some of that tactical, strategic, but also just, you know, behavior and daily practice that I can spread or share or contribute, that will always be meaningful to me. But more recently that has expanded into places of contribution and charitable work for communities that don't have access to. Like you said, I've had the opportunity to bump elbows with the best of the best in the personal development, growth, leadership spaces. Not a lot of people get that opportunity. So how can I help those who don't have that opportunity gain some of the same tools, the same resources and change their lives and their mindsets?

Yeah, it's this real global focus on leadership development. And before we hit record, we were talking about some things that we fortunately won't have a lot of time for. But these international projects that you and I are sharing in terms of wanting to make a difference in the global economy of, of leadership and helping rise the tide. And you know, we talk. You mentioned developing leaders in the team. I think one of your hallmark moments, and this will be like one of the things I'd like to dig on in this episode is culture. You know, culture and how you develop a team at that level. I was privileged to be with Alex Hermosi who told me that Layla, his wife, will never get the credit that she deserves because she's not as famous and all of her work is focused on culture and people. And having been in that space, you know, when I talk to people who work@accentility.com I always say, so what do you like about it here? Everyone's answer was Layla. It was the leader that facilitated the culture. So Amy, that's you. So let's talk, let's dig into culture. How do you define culture? What is, you know, what is that for you? And how do you. We'll get into the details around that.

So I have so many definitions of culture and I have so many beliefs around it. I think ultimately on the front end, I will say I think it's really important that culture is not what you say it is. It's what you allow. It is something that is co created so you know, people aren't. I, I can't imagine saying Leela has, has created a culture that everybody has to follow. It's right into this culture. I feel empowered by this culture. I am, I am weaved through the, the soul of this culture. And I think when you, you know, you, the, the things that start to show up with culture, actually I remember you saying, and you and I might have different days on this quote, but culture is how your team feels when they show up on Monday morning.

Yeah.

You know, are they excited? Did you say Monday or Friday or Sunday night?

It was Sunday night is what I heard. How the employee feel Sunday night before, you know that Sunday blues, this is.

How connected we are. So mine was always to my team. How did you know? How do you feel? I want to know that you wake up in the morning and we were 100% virtual in multiple organizations that I've led. But when you walk up to your computer and you log on to the first meeting, you're excited on Monday morning. You are amped, you're energized, you are pumped for whatever it's going to be. Not only just the connection with your team members, but the impact that you get to, to make and the things you get to create. If, if that is not what is felt, there's something, there's something going on with the culture and you feel it. Other things that are triggers for me in culture, I know it's, I know it's working. I know it's there. When words go, you know, the, the focus of language goes from I and me to we and ours. I've worked this hard. I put this together. How does this impact me? I'm like, I mean those are trigger words. Like, okay, something's wrong with the culture here. Right. Like, we've got to figure out and refine what this all means. We're too selfish mission over here. When the conversation starts to use language that is, you know, we're going to knock this out of the park. Our impact is going to be immeasurable. You know, we're going to exceed our yearly goals in the, in the first couple of months of the year. That is that community focus, the community feel. People are proud of it. You build a culture that people have helped build, have helped so. And that I will say I divine by. And actually in a process that is co creating the mission, vision, values, beliefs and behavioral expectations of a team or a company that it is not something that the leader by title creates and you know, sends down to the team. Just so you know, this is our culture, right. This is who we are. That doesn't, that doesn't work. I think culture, some people still believe that culture is a luxury or a nice to have. And I'm a strong, strong believer that culture is your strategy. That's it. Like you're certainly, you have your, your products, your services, your, your tactical decisions.

Yeah, Those things.

But a lot of that is framed after you've created and gotten clarity on your culture. If you know what your mission is and everybody's got buy in, if you know what your vision is and everybody has buy in. And that vision is a reflection of you as a leader and them as leaders in their own areas of value and values. I mean, these are people who will be dedicated and loyal to you for the rest of time and they will do the best work of their lives with you. So to me, it is about, you know, get it co creating that culture, refining it where it needs to be refined. But it's a, it's a team deal. This is not a, not, not a, you know, top down, this is what I say, do as I say kind of thing. Doesn't work out.

Yeah, I, there's so many things you said around that, Amy, that I want to unpack. You know, from the very beginning, the first thing you said is culture isn't what we create as much as what we accept. Is that, Is that what you said?

Allow either one of those words?

Allow what? Can you unpack that a little bit more for me? What does that mean from what you've seen in the past?

Right. So if you have co created a culture, people know it, they feel empowered by it, but they also know and they have intention and clarity around it. So people, once they have that buy in, they're not willing to step out of the lines because the rest of the culture will. I mean, it's like, it's like you got a big, know, highlighted yellow mark on your forehead. Have you adhered to the culture? Right. So you've got clarity of culture. And when it comes to anything from, hey, you know, team members are not necessarily getting along, there's a behavioral thing, there's a, you can see there's a motivational thing. It really comes down to culture. So it is if you were to, you know, be clear on your culture and then allow everybody, oh, great, we put it together, we co created, we spent the day together, maybe two days. We put it on a, you know, a piece of paper that everybody hangs in their office and then that's it. We never revisit it again. There's no commitment to that behaviorally. Right. And then it goes from that to like, oh, well, so and so did say this or this, there was a rude comment or these people are bickering or, you know, things weren't, you know, done in the right order, scope or what have you. We'll just let it go. This Time, Right.

So you're saying it's like they are letting these culture killers in because it takes work to hold that accountable.

No, it's. It is a constant reminder. We. I mean, starting with starting meetings with a reminder of the reciting of the mission, vision, values, beliefs and expectations. Something as simple as this. Hey, before we kick off, you know, I don't know about how you run your meetings, but I like. I like to. I like to be a little bit of a mess, right? On the front end. It's. Hey, socially, personally, how was your weekend? How was your evening? How did things wrap up? Tell me something fun, you know, whatever it. Whatever it is, be more personal and connected to each other outside of just the work, right?

Yeah.

You spend your whole. I mean, something ridiculous like, you know, 68, 70% of your life with the people that you work with. Not with your families, not with yourself, not like these are your people. So building a culture where people are excited to show up for each other, they want to share who they are personally and professionally. And then like, okay, let's, you know, let's move into the business of the day. You know, who wants to. Who wants to jump in and reminder of mission, vision, values and beliefs.

Right?

It's something that's simple. It's. I mean, it could be even dialed down to, you know, what those things are, but it's tied to a rally cry. Yeah, right. Like something that is, you know, could be goofy or a motto or something that you put on shirts and you're proud of just being a part of that community and that culture, and then you move into the business of the day, but it just, you know, kind of comes back and it just is that backboard that, I hate to say scorecard, but that backboard for every tough conversation, for every great conversation. Right? Like, as you're meeting with, you know, your team members and the people that you lead, like, hey, phenomenal day today. Like, not only were you such a steward of the culture, but you accomplished this, that, and whatever, on top of it. Like, amazing. Hey, saw that you were kind of struggling in the meeting today. Like, you know, where. Where do we feel like there was conflict of culture there? Right?

So you have that wonderful rapport with your people. It's funny because I think where a lot of business owners get messed up, I know, me included, I initially erred on the side of making everyone my best friends, and I learned that was a mistake. I think when we're talking about closeness, especially as it talks about your culture, that bleeds into the personal world where people have personal relationships. One distinction that I, I, I want to know your thoughts on my experience has been that I can make work the primary priority in that connection. And it still becomes very personal because we're connected around a mission, a vision we want to rally and make a difference in the world around this thing called the company's purpose. And then in that space, 80%, 90% of our communication is professional or whatever that division is for people. But for me, with most of my people, it's 80 to 90% is. But there's still that very deep, meaningful 10 to 20% of like, I know what's going on in their world. They don't necessarily see me as their life coach, but I'm aware of things we're supporting, things we bonus to things we give awards. And ironically, even though that's not like a deep, you know, it's not the first person I would call if my mother died was someone who's on my, you know, direct team necessarily, but they would be my second or third call. Like, those relationships are still some of the most personally endearing of my life.

Right.

Despite that. So you're talking about a culture of, like, results. And I think what you're saying is where most people err is on the opposite side, where they're keeping it so professional that they're not allowing the magic of, like, the, the personalization come in and really transform how that feels as a company. I will tell you that the way you described your meeting rhythms, I want you to go after this. I'm going to send you our meeting of our agenda because it's so similar to what you said. It's hysterical. But, like, talk about the elements of culture. What are the key components that you see in a company that help provide that balanced personal and professional culture? What are the things that you like to see or do in order to keep that growing?

Well, I think it ties very closely related to your comment that a lot of leaders have a misconception, and I was absolutely that leader for a long time. So I mean, like, where we are today is a, is, you know, a journey, right, of a lot of mistakes and learnings along the way of, like, okay, that wasn't exactly the right approach. And let's refine. Ooh, good lesson there. And you know, many years into the leadership journey, you know, still not perfect, but, like, I feel in more of the sweet spot than the, the, than the pain points and the learning lessons. Right? So I think most leaders do feel one if they're Put in a position of leadership, or if they are working at a position of leadership, that they have to have it all. Right.

Yeah.

They have to have all the answers. They have to be confident. You know, it's all business, all the time. Don't show any emotion. I will tell you, that was absolutely the map that was drawn for me early in my leadership career. I remember hearing right off the bat, and I had a. I'm going to give you this visual. Maybe this is something you've heard before. Have you ever heard that great leaders are like ducks?

I haven't heard that.

Calm and cool and serene, floating on the top of a pond, but underneath.

Their little feet are just going crazy.

Never know leaders. Great leaders never show they're in panic. You know, leaders don't ever show that. You know, they're pedaling faster than their little hearts can take it underneath the surface. And so in my head, in my early leadership career, that was it. I was confident, I was cool. I kept my personal and business lives completely separate. I was not vulnerable enough to say when I didn't have answers. I mean, I would make them up on the spot. Had to have all the answers. Right or wrong, I'm the leader. That's. That's the charge through. And many, many, many, too many to share. But so many examples and stories of, like, wow, people don't trust perfection.

Right.

Trust authenticity. They trust a leader's willingness to be vulnerable. And it took me a really, really long time, and it's just not inherently who I am or even how I was raised. And so learning the softer side of myself, learning the softer side of. Of allowing vulnerability to come into leadership. And I think that's where you get to see a little bit of the balance of the personal and professional. So I insert that from a leadership perspective in storytelling. Yeah.

I was going to say, how does that look like? I think a concept is very inspiring. Everyone connects with that. But what does that look like for Amy?

Yeah, I think for me, it's not telling. It's sharing. It's letting people experience through you so that if they feel some connection in the story, they're like, okay, cool. I get that. I see that. I've been there. I understand. I empathize with that. So I think, you know, first and foremost, storytelling is such a great way to not impose your personal beliefs. Not. But. But say, hey, it's okay. Like, this is where I have messed up. Not. And when I say stories, I don't mean this is the success stories. Like, let me tell you how great I am. And when I made this really great decision, it is like, huh, that reminds me of a time.

Yeah.

You mind if I share a quick story with you? Right, so get the permission. Right? You're not just dumping and using it as your own personal therapy session.

Did you guys think I did the right thing? What do you think? Yeah, you don't use it for therapy.

It really is, you know, storytelling, revealing all the vulnerabilities, the failures, the lessons learned so that people can see themselves with you and not, okay, you know, this is what I have to do. This is the leader's rule. You know, it all needs to be separate. So I think you can share more about yourself, your authentic self through storytelling. I think that you can share that, you know, your imperfections through storytelling. I think it allows people to see themselves in you and your stories and their scenarios and. And it is a form of coaching. Right. That they can take what they want and leave what they don't want. But it creates a space of relationship that is. I'm not expecting you to know all the answers. I don't know the answers. Right. But it takes away the veil and the facade of do it the right way first, or else it provides that trust foundation so that if there is something personal, like, hey, notice that, you know, in this meeting, or, hey, you know, we're missing deadlines here. Is there anything I can help you with? Yeah, right. They're willing to say, look, I got some, you know, maybe not even the details. I got some personal stuff going on. This is not here. I'll get this right. Okay, great. How can I help you? You know, get caught up, meet the deadline, exceed your goals, you know, what. What have you. So it is a place of staying out of judgment and in curiosity. Something that I just live by. And it took me, again, a long time to get to that place is. It's okay. I have coaching clients that will have been annoyed by me when they, like, this is what's going on with my staff, or, this is what's going on with my team. And I'm like, you know, like, well, I don't know this. And this is what I think is going on. Like, well, do you know, have you asked? And they're like, I don't want to ask them. You know, I just want to know. I just want to. You gotta, you know, ask the questions. You might be creating a narrative that doesn't exist. You may be skipping over, you know, that somebody has something, you know, going on personally, and you actually have a tool or resource that can help them in this time. So it is through storytelling, with your willingness to be vulnerable about yourself, shedding the skin that you are, have to be perfect in every way and have all the answers. And even saying things like, I don't know, we're gonna figure it out together.

I think that's the leader component of it, isn't the knowing of the answers, it's the confidence in the team. And I think I love how you said shedding because truly, in my experience, it was either wanting to be seen as. Because I was super. I went through, like, the first lie I told myself as an entrepreneur is that I wasn't good enough. And so I covered that with a lot of, like, performance and extra hard work, little legs running underneath the thing, calm exterior. And then later it flipped to when I knew I was enough at least, you know, from a value add perspective. And then I had this opposite problem of like, everyone was. Couldn't help me because I was so good. And it was like, no, I can't find good help. There's no good help these days. Like that. It was. Ironically, the major lesson I learned was it was never about meat in the first place, but in those steps where people are shedding those exterior, you know, problems or needs to be seen as. That's where I think you're saying authenticity comes into place and really gets right to the human element of the relationship at work. Because it's still product results driven, I should say. But it's about service more than anything else, is how I'm hearing it from you.

Yeah, I'm. I again, didn't start out this way, but servant leadership means something to me. And that is, you know, based in empowerment and asking the questions and arming, you know, people with the tools and the education and the knowledge and the, you know, whatever exterior that they may not have to accomplish what they want to accomplish. So I think it is, you know, the job as leaders. Find out, you know, our job is. Well, I don't know. You and I have different definitions, but I like yours more. I believe. I believe our job is as leaders, is to create leaders. Right? Whatever that means for our people. And I know yours is defining leadership as love, which I love so much, because that is that ties in everything. I was just saying is that that empathy and that heart and that connection is okay. It's okay to have those things and it's okay to care about your people. And it's actually, I think it's unbelievably important. So, yeah, I Think it, I think that's absolutely, absolutely key is, is just understanding where people are coming from, what their perspective, what their goals are and arming them with the tools to, to reach those goals.

So you know, this is so insightful as you're talking and I, I do believe the same thing. You know, purest form of leadership, Love, greatest purpose of a leader, build more leaders. As people who are listening to this are, Are feeling inspired to do this, I, I am sure a percentage of our audience is feeling a little scared because I don't think, you know, employees ever realize how often we get fired. And truly like the trauma business owners go through in terms of when they hire the wrong fit and then apply these principles to it. So like as a leader opens themselves up and becomes us like the servant leader and is pouring into their people. How do they distinguish and protect themselves against the individuals, those few and far between who are truly dis. Destructive on a lesser dramatic extent, just not aligned. How, how does. Does that hurt or help those relationships? I'm kind of curious from your perspective if that approach is something that sets us up for failure or if there's a way to help protect us or is there a way that accelerates the understanding. Tell me what you think about that.

Well, so I, I kind of fundamentally believe that you hire for heart and train for skill. And so if you are clear about your culture and you are inviting someone into that culture, as clear as you can be about the culture that they are interviewing for is. I mean it creates either a magnet, right? If they're drawn to that culture and they're like automatic buy in create. It's a magnet toward. If you are so specific about like this is what the team has created. These are the behavioral expectations that have been lined out that everybody on the team is dedicated to and they don't feel like it's a match, it will be, you know, magnets turn the other way. It will kind of repel people naturally. So I think clarity provides a lot of the success, success of hiring. If there's a, you know, and that. But that happens, you hire someone who you believe is 100 connected to the culture that has been created. They fill a great skill set that's needed. They come in with, with all the tools and you know, what a great compliment to the team and something changes. Those are conversations like okay, right. And again, the clarity is so important because you are intentionally growing from that, that culture. Your job is to protect the culture that you've built. Right. It says just as much to the People who are watching someone veer off from the culture and you're not doing anything about it as, you know, hiring somebody and building that culture from, you know, from the starting point. So it's just as I'm like, protect your culture with everything you've got. And so, you know, somebody can come in and it starts out great and it's not going well. And then the conversations are, hey, you know, want to have a conversation? Things don't seem to be, you know, you don't seem to be happy. That's not the goal here. Let's review the culture. Where are you feeling conflict with the culture? Right. Or where are things not in alignment with the culture? And either you hear it in the form of, yep, I know that this is not a fit for me, or it comes out in, well, you. Well, they will, right?

That's a big indicator. I love that's as a side note, just to jump in, I think when they. When it's all deflective and. And you and they and the generalizations. Well, everyone. She always says or they are always. It's like, okay, red flag.

Like, are you sure? How do you know? I just like to ask questions. Are you sure? How do you know? Are you sure that that's how they feel? Are you sure that that's what they're doing? You know, that this is our defining culture. If there's a conflict with a human being, like, let's sit down and. And have you to address that. Right. From a place of. Of real curiosity and not judgment. But yeah, I mean, there are. I have been schooled. I have been in that position where I thought I had hired the perfect. Actually, it's like a second in command, if you will position my contingent. Well, not contingency my succession plan. Right. Like session. I win the lottery and I'm out of here. This person's going to run this company or the division or what have you, and I'm going to invest a lot of time into developing them into that. That person. And in short order, I think unfortunately, I think you intuitively know right away for the most part. And when I say unfortunately, you know, after you've hired them.

But I sometimes, you know, I've had I for me intuitively, and I consider myself a master recru. Like, there's been times where I beforehand, I'm like, oh, this is gonna. I almost worry when it's like, there's no reservation.

Right.

Like for me, it's like when I've gone in the past where I'm like, they're 100% perfect. No concerns on any level whatsoever is sometimes where that's gone sideways. Now, to your point, after we've hired people, then usually we get a pretty quick intuition of the fit because we're seeing it application wise.

Right. Well, and so, you know, I do, I do subscribe to the, you know, take your time in the hiring process.

Yeah.

But as soon as you recognize that there's not a fit, that there's a conflict where there's a misalignment with the culture and it's not going to progress forward, you've worked through, you know, decent conversations, and it's just going to be a miss. You know, you owe it to them as well for them to find their perfect fit where they're going to excel and grow. And so if our job as leaders is to help develop other leaders, developing other leaders also means helping them to develop in other spaces. Right. That would be, you know, best for them. So I think it's also a fire fast, but it's, you know, it's a fire fast with, hey, I, you know, I would be remiss if I, you know, didn't share with you, like, look there, this is just a miss here. But I want the best for you. Right. I wouldn't have hired you if I didn't believe that you are a great human being and have incredible talents and wonderful things to give. Let me help you find that somewhere else.

That's powerful. You know, you talk about the, you know, it was a great way of explaining what do we do when someone's not culturally a fit when we thought they were, and how do we address that? I think that was a masterclass on how to maintain your culture but still be holding the values of your company as the protective thing that you're doing. You mentioned hiring for culture, training on skill.

Yeah, yeah.

What are, what are two or three key things that you do? Obviously, that could be like a series of podcasts is how you would hire on culture. But what are some of the things that you like to do or see? Or how do you indicate that someone is a cultural fit during that dating period of recruiting?

I put it in the job description first and foremost. The first thing they see is like, and these, you know, this is, you know, this is the mission. This is the vision. This is the, you know, expectations. Here's the values and beliefs that we adhere to so that people on the front end, even before the very first interview are like, huh, is this something that matches what I want? Or is this something that, like, oh, like, gosh, this, you know, Amy lady sounds a little frou frou to me. And I, you know, I don't know if I believe in these things or, you know, that, you know, the team is all about this, you know, I don't know. So I think there, there is a filter system and also just putting it out there. Don't. Don't let it be like, and surprise, here's our culture, like, put it out there first in job description, I weave it the questions of my interview. I mean, you could, you know, simply easily, you know, now with technology, with ChatGPT, plug in your, your culture, your mission, vision, values, beliefs, behavioral expectations. What are, you know, Three great interview questions that will help me identify if this is a great person for our culture fit. And I say that as not an HR professional who doesn't want to be sued for anything, but, you know, give you an idea of the kinds of questions that might help you understand, you know, and questions that, like, you put people into. I mean, it could be situations that you've been in. Right. Here's a challenge. If you were in this type of situation, you know, what would that look like? I have a favorite interview question, which is not what you asked me, but I have now.

That's all I want to know. That's all I want to know is this favorite. I love it.

It's so simple. But most people that have worked for me even in the past are like, yeah, I remember of that question, when you're working on a project, would you rather have it delivered perfect or on time?

So what do you glean from the answer of that question?

Flexibility. And not just flexibility, but an understanding of the team goal.

Okay.

That it's not about you. Right. Even if you're a specialist. Right. Even if you're a specialist, it's not about your specific mission of I need to have it perfect or I need to always on time. And it's funny to throw that question out and you see, you know, personality profiles come real clear through disc profile or whatever. Personality profile, you know, well, like, oh, always on time, always on perfect. Every time, perfect. I prefer the answer of, well, what's the goal? Right.

More questions. Because, like, my mind immediately went to this idea of, like, okay, how do you know what's the end in mind and what are the. What are the variables that I. That aren't being mentioned? What's the project? Because then you're getting more of some flexibility as someone who's able to also think on their feet. It kind of reminds me of that Google question.

Absolutely.

Where like, you're three feet tall and you're in a blender. How do you get out? Or 3 inches tall and you're in a blender.

Oh, that's a good one too.

Yeah, yeah, it's, it's a. They're just looking to see how your brain works. But in your case, I see where you're trying to get to see how their brain works from a teamwork perspective.

Teamwork and a willingness to be a little vulnerable. Right. Don't have to have all the answers correct. Right. You don't have to pick one side or the other or have the right answer or the wrong answer or be worried that you have the wrong answer. Did I answer right? Is that what you're looking for? But I mean, I guess it depends on the budget. You're right, it does. I guess it depends on the client. I guess it does. You know, I guess it depends on what the team is working on. Are we a part of, you know, a pipeline of development? Am I in the front part of the development of the project or the last part? Do I bring it on home? Anybody who's willing to ask the questions, get more information and recognize that I don't want them to give me an answer right away.

Yeah. It's funny, it reminds me of a story. The CEO of acquisition.com tells this story about how he was being interviewed to be a CEO of a different large company. And the person interviewing him said, okay, I want you to get this person right now. I'm going to give you the cell phone number of this person. I want you to close right now this deal and you're going to sell this and this is the product you want. Like, he did like a 30 second training. It was this real intense, Mommy's like, but I want you to do that right now. And he said, great, can you tell me what you say on your calls then before I start? And like, I just want to learn from you. And he goes, you're hired. And he's like, what do you. What just happened? And he goes, he goes, you're the first person I interviewed that didn't just pick up the phone and start calling and like, you know, for you ask questions. You were curious about things. So there, there, that's a beautiful question. Because it's this creative way of allowing to see how people are. Because the stress in that moment isn't different than the stress of working for you and being given an assignment and that exact circumstance comes up because then you get to see how they react under stress and how their brain works. And there's, like you said, there's no wrong answer. There's value in someone saying, gosh, do I have to choose between the two of those? Because I'd like to do both. And you know, what else can you tell me? Like, oh, okay, we got someone who's a thinker.

Well, and I gotta be honest, like, it's not, it's almost unfair that I'm hoping people go there young, when I say young, early in their careers and their development. Because again, that was one of those lessons I had to learn over time. Actually, it was a super painful lesson. I'll tell you the quick story, please. Story is I was high level executive, decided to take a course at Wharton Business School. And it was an executive development program. You know, I think away for a couple of weeks from my family. You stay in the dorm, you go through an unbelievable coursework. But there's also half of the event where you're building in simulation, a public company and you're competing with other teams for the value of the company that you ultimately launch, right? So there's the learning piece of things. There's a dynamic, you know, you're participating in different activities to solidify the things that you've learned. And then in the afternoons, you were building a company, you're buying and selling products, right? So first couple of days. So people are very particular about who's on their team, the roles, the job descriptions, the titles. I was attending this course with people, super, super, super impressive human beings, CEOs, CFOs of large, large companies and banks that, you know. And there I was from a personal development and growth standpoint, you know, for franchises. And we're like, I don't know that that means any. How are you going to contribute? We're building a. Anyway, so I had massive insecurities. I was feeling very intimidated that I was not the smartest person in the room. And we had a activity that was a negotiation activity. And in my head I was like, I got this one, whatever this is, I'm the winner, right? And it was a negotiation that is too long to tell you about. But the concept being everybody was told, everybody had a little piece of paper, we'll say team of five, five people went into a room. One person was selling eggs, rare eggs. One person was told that they, you know, in private that they needed to get only egg whites, one needed only yolks, one needed shell, one needed all the. Right. So everybody had what they needed. To go get out of this negotiation. But there were rules. You cannot say what you're going in for. There were all kinds of rules of what you couldn't say, what you couldn't share, but you had to go negotiate your little tail off and be the winner of the negotiation.

Got it.

So I walked into this negotiation. Unbelievable. People in my group, super respectable, crazy smart, intelligent, experienced human beings. All men.

Yes.

I'm like, even bigger. Chip on my shoulder. I got this. I'm going to. You know, I'm going to.

I'm going to show these guys.

That's exactly. Watch this. And I. I mean, I did my best negotiating. I didn't get what I wanted, but nobody else did. So we go back into the classroom, and the professor's like, okay, so which groups. In which groups did everybody get what they needed out of the negotiation? I'm like, no way. Multiple teams. Everybody who went into the negotiation walked away with what they needed.

Oh, my gosh.

And I. I mean, I couldn't figure out what the deal was. And it came down to, right, not going in. Billy Badass thinking you're going to run a negotiation, not going in with a selfish mission that, I'm going to win this. I'm going to bully this. I'm going to, you know, I'm going to have the right answers. I'm going to whatever. The teams that won were teams that went in and said, okay, here's what I don't need. Does anybody else need this? Right. So they figured out how to ask the questions and stay in curiosity to wiggle around the rules.

Right.

Everybody can be happy, Will, if you ask the questions and you stay in curiosity and you don't go in with your selfish mission and your chip on your shoulder and that kind of thing. So I had to learn that. I mean, it destroyed me. I be honest with you. I went back to my little dorm room, cried my eyes out. I'm like, I am that person. Big lesson. I am that person. I don't want to be that person. And what do I need to learn about self? That is. And confidence in my. You know, in me and my abilities to have good relationships and conversations so that everybody can be a winner.

I love that story. And I'm that person, too. Or at least I can be.

Yeah.

You know, I think there's something. Talk about modeling culture in that story. By the way, this wasn't the story of if I walked in and I saw and I won. It was, here's a painful lesson I learned that was so Humbling to me. And I think you just modeled everything that you've said up to being how to develop leadership through culture, through leadership in that one story. And I feel I respect you more because you were willing to share that element, because I relate more to that than being like, you know, I just kind of felt the answer, and I saw within me what I could do to serve and, you know, the only way I've learned to do things productive now, honestly, has come through repetition and failure of me going, oh, I am an idiot. Why would I just side. Not. I am. I just. I acted like an idiot. In that case, why would I do this or that? But the truth of the matter is, like, I think that's how most people, like the vast majority of the people in the world, would have negotiated the way that you negotiate. That's, like, the common thing. We realized that that thing about being kind and, like, being in curiosity is the difference. And. And it's weird because there's a big perception for a lot of people that there's weakness in that. Like, I don't know if you've experienced that, but, like, a lot of times in my world, people have. Have been in my. My. My world and gotten to know me, and they're just like, wow, that guy. Like, I've had multiple people just be like, that guy is so, like, emotional, and this is. What a waste. And when some people think I'm gay, like, it's all these things, and it's like, I'm just, you know. And by the way, that's not how I used to be. Like, my initial way was the way I was raised. Very masculine energy, Very, like, to the point. And there's nothing wrong with that when we're. That's an element of what we need to build. But there's this other thing called people. And with people, it's about love and nurture. It's about helping support and grow and authenticity and all those elements. So I really appreciate you sharing that story. I felt like I learned a lot as well about the power of how we can stay in curiosity and everyone can win.

Yeah. No, it's a tough lesson to learn. And I'm sure people are like, well, keisa, but this interview question, if people get it wrong, you just don't hire them. No, it's just one of my interview questions that helps me tell the story about who we are as a culture. Yeah, right. And what you see is either epiphany or. Well, no, that's ridiculous. You know, I. Or people open up I'm coming from a company where all that mattered was the bottom line.

Yeah, right.

So it's on time. That's had to be the answer. Well, that's not who we are. Oh, gosh, I love that. That will be a refreshing change for me. Right, so really they're just conversation starters. There's no, I don't have any necessarily interview questions that are nos, you know, there. I have silly ones like how would you describe opening an orange in the journalism world? Right. In the world of media, the details, the smells, the, the extras, I get to hear a little bit about people's personalities and what they value or how they experience things. And I'm like, that's so good. Right. So it's. They're not yeses and nos. There's not. Oh, that's, you know. Nope. You said you wanted to be a lion instead of a seal check. You know those questions.

Oh yeah, I know a question.

Tell me more about people's personalities, their profiles, where they've been, their stories. It opens up the opportunity to share my stories.

Yeah, it's powerful. It's neat too because there are people who legitimately want the bottom line. They want to work for companies. We had an employee resign. He was a bookkeeper, of course, in that regard, because his brain worked. He worked as a virtual assistant for other companies. He was seen as a cog in a wheel. In our first team meeting, we're like, so how's it feel to be a part of the team? And we're going to go around and say something nice about each other, you know, like all these things that we do in our culture. And he quit the next week and he's like, hey, listen, I don't want to be offend, I don't want to offend you guys, but like, I don't know what all that stuff is. I don't want anything to do with it. So some companies can function in that way. What we're talking about are culture led companies that honestly just like totally kill in the market. That's the byproduct of all this. You have people who would take a bullet for each other.

Absolutely.

They, they build, they build better, more sustainable or at least more pivotable to where they can, they can go where they need to go to thrive. And those are the cultures that this generation that's coming up. They thrive, they want, they're desperate to look for a community where they can feel like they belong and that, that has to happen in that way. So what other questions do you have? The orange questions. Brilliant. Do you have any other questions like that? Silly ones.

Gosh, I can't think anything off the top of my head. You know, I. Sometimes it's a scenario that's just happened within the organization.

I see real time.

Yep. Here's a situation that just happened, which, you know, any thoughts around that? How would you have approached that? The same, different, or here's a challenge we're facing. So it could even just be real time. You know, actually real time. This is what's going on right now. Tell the story, like. And then again, are they asking more questions? Okay, well, so tell me about this. Have you ever worked with these people before? What is their expectation? I love all that. Like, then it's, you know, you're gonna have some longer interviews.

I'll say.

But, you know, if the. If the culture fit is there, if the personality profile, need and want, like, again, to your point, the people who don't want to be part of something like that and are not willing to ask the questions, like, it will be a very uncomfortable interview and they're going to walk away just as disenchanted as you are. There's not going to be confusion where they're like, I nailed all those answers. They're going to be like, that was weird. And you're going to say, that was weird. You know, so I think. I think those. The more conversational that, you know, the interviews can be and more showing who you are and that kind of thing. I remember being in an interview and I carried this one through is like. And it actually applies to both of our backdrops right now.

Sure.

Tell me a story about the picture that's hanging behind me.

Oh, wow.

There's no right or wrong answer. Just tells me more about you. If I'm going to ask you that question, I probably already know I'm hiring you.

Yeah, right.

Yeah. Because then I'm just like, oh, this is. I'd love to. To know more about you and how you would like. So tell me. Tell me a story about the picture behind.

You're starting to learn how that person thinks. Because you're already. It's a probable. Yes.

Right.

And now you're asking something. Well, it serves two purposes. I think you learn more about that person. But then there's nothing better in life than being different when it comes to, like, competitive advantage. So Steve Martin is the one who said that. He's like, it's better to be different than good, because when you're different, you're automatically good because you stand out so like I've never heard that question before but that, that person will never forget that question. Like if they're, if that's a real desired hire, they're, they're not getting these kinds of like off the wall questions which culturally is part of who you guys are and that would attract them if that's who they are too.

Well, and I do it to be fair. I also have worked in a lot of creative industries. Right. So I love to hear like, you know, just go wild man. Like I want to, I want to hear how, how wild this can actually get and like have fun with it. Are we people that will have fun working together every day and creating or if it's like, I mean it's trees and a path. Pretty much that's the story time I.

Was on a hike and then it was over the end.

That's right. So I like that reminds me though of, of well, and I might be messing up this quote a little bit, but Marcus Buckingham and it's something I've always believed is that people join companies or cultures and they leave. Managers slash leaders. Right. So if you've got someone who's incredible and they decide like, hey this isn't the place for me, there's one place you should be looking right. It, you know, you, you hired to the culture, their unbelievable skill set. They built relationships, all's well and they decide to leave. I mean it could be growth opportunity which again is still leaving you if you're not able to provide that for them. But it, I stick to that one as well because that a lot of learning lessons in that along my journey is, you know, the pain of losing somebody. Amazing.

Yeah.

And acknowledging like okay, what can we change about this culture that will not, not encourage somebody of that caliber to ever leave us again? What do we need to change about, you know, our mission? How do we need to expand our parts of our culture or the way that we do things so we attract a higher level personality.

Yeah, I love that because you know, no matter what happens when someone leaves, it is always tied to the owner. You know, even if, even if the person is off the wall and just, well, I hired them. So, you know, there's something, whether it's compensation, culture, appreciation, all the things I don't know about myself, I think that's the hardest thing and the best thing about owning a business is learning from those moments. For sure.

Well, and I, I think that's key. We were talking about, you know, things in meetings and, and kickoffs. I. And again it makes for longer meetings. So I have always been the person who's like, yep, our Monday morning meeting, you know, let's block it out for 45, because I might say 30, but it's gonna go 45, because, you know, we get to talking about some other things and some squirrel moments, and I think that's the connective tissue. And that connective tissue is, you know, what was your favorite Halloween costume?

Yeah.

What's your favorite, you know, Christmas or Hanukkah memory? What's just kind of funny, random, out of the bucket questions that, you know, you can kind of rotate around the team. Who comes up with the question and who initiates that part of the meeting. So everybody, you know, gets an opportunity to take ownership and have a little fun with things. And their answer, I still to. To this moment, I can tell you an employee who doesn't like any condiments. Like, the question was, what's. What's the favorite. You know, what's the favorite condiment you put on your sandwich? She's like, I don't like condiments. Not ketchup.

It was like, what you mean none of. Right.

I can tell you stories about employees 20 years ago who had their getting their first bike. The memory of getting their first bike and getting on their first bike. Things that are that. Again, that connective tissue that may not tell you, like, it's not counseling. They're not telling you, I'm having a really hard day right now because I had a fight with my husband. You don't need all that. You need the connective tissue. What makes you tick? What were your building blocks? What are some of your fondest memories? Why is it fond? What's your favorite, favorite, you know, tradition for such and such. And then you can bring some of those things to the table and surprise those people in places where maybe the culture feels a little fragmented and you need to bring it back together.

That's such a powerful. Masterclass is the only word that comes to mind, because as you're giving those examples out, I know my audience is going, oh, yeah, I do some of that. I could do more, or I don't do any of that. You know, one of the greatest indicators of a culture for me is who is planning and showing up to the company parties, you know? You know, like early days, I remember going, like, hey, guys, we're going to take everyone out to dinner. Don't worry. It's just going to be an hour and a half, and I'm going to give you prizes. And everyone's like, oh, do we have to? Versus the end of my career of that physical therapy business where someone else was planning it and they're like, hey, we really want to do this big thing for the people. Can we get budget approval for that? And. And you know, someone so is wanting to bring their friends. Is it okay if he brings his friends? You're like, oh, my gosh, like the difference.

That's a good indicator right there. If people love their company and their team so much that they want to bring their spouse, their kids, their friends. Knocked it out of the park. Well done.

Yeah. And I will say, I think everyone who's listening to your Amy is going, how do I work for Amy?

It's not working for Amy. It's working for yourself and working for a team and a culture. And then, you know, I just get to come along and serve and be a part of it.

Did you guys hear that? Listen to that. Like, there's so many layers. We can have a whole, like, podcast on her answer to that comment that I made that we could dissect. But Amy, listen, it's been so great to have you on the show. We're gonna do some rapid fire questions here towards the end. I love these. They're super, super fun. Maybe along the lines of what you were just describing a little bit there. And maybe one of those questions is to tell me a story about the picture behind you. I'm just kidding. All right, the first one is, what's a book recently that you've read that's probably blown your mind in the last year or two?

Oh, my gosh. Blowing my mind. So, so many. I read a lot. A lot of books. Was. Was recently in an industry where people were sending me all of their books.

That's right.

Like, I. I can't catch up. I can't read enough books. A book that I could. So the let them theory, Mel Robbins was a big one for me and it was something that was big for my family, so I got to. To share that with them.

That's a big one. That's a big one. One of my key executives, I just asked for her to read it, even though I haven't, because I just felt like that was something that's useful. I've gotten seen so many Mel Robbins videos. She's amazing.

So I just recently was driving home from the airport and somebody driving in front of me had let them as their license plate.

So I had no.

Take a little picture and send that off.

Oh, I thought maybe it was Mel Robbins.

No. Well. But no she needs to have this photo. I just think, like, that's, you know, the story behind or what's going on with that kind of movement is the number of people who are getting tattoos, physical tattoos that say, let them. And it's become quite the. Quite the movement. So, yeah, I would say let them had a. Had a huge impact on the, you know, the personality trait of mine that is still a little bit of a control freak.

Yeah.

You know, still insecure, like, you know, did I do this the right way? Why is this happening? Why are, you know, what's going on in this scenario? Let them.

It's okay. All right, here's my next question. What is a culture building? What's one. What's a good use of $100 or less that has. That can build your culture in a company?

Oh, I love. I love a good scavenger hunt. That's so cheesy and old school, but I love scavenger hunt. Whether it's an online scavenger hunt or, like, physically, if you're all in an area and you can do something like that, you're not all, you know, 100% virtual. I mean, it's virtually free. The fun that comes out of it. I mean, you know, go to 7:11 and slurp down a Slurpee in, you know, 30 seconds and go to Target and buy a, you know, $50 puzzle in the discount aisle and make a puzzle, you know, at the. At the table and take a picture of it and, you know, go ask this team the history of this story. Go ask, you know, so simple little things. But any kind of teamwork, I feel like, is so fun. But I will tell you another one that I love, love, love. I used to call it genius hour. And genius hour costs depends on how. How much you. How many people you have on your team. But a quick, you know, ice cream run or something so that the whole team, whole company is in a physical space together. But you could also do it virtually. And maybe it's not ice cream. Just saying, wow, you want it to be. And the question is, you know, you just pose a company challenge that doesn't have anything to do with a specialty or a human being. How do we make our clients feel more special? What ideas do you have? One hour, it's rapid fire. One hour, it's exploring ideas. No idea is a bad idea. You get ideas from, you know it about customer service. You get ideas from customer service about it. So people get out of their defining blocks and just feel like they're contributing to the outcome.

Oh, that is such a good answer. Okay, next question. You get in a time machine, you go 20 years in the future, and you meet future Amy. What's the first thing that future Amy says to you in terms of gratitude about who you are today?

Oh, gosh, I do. I visit her as much as I possibly can.

I thought you did. Especially with your coaching group that you're in.

Yep, I do. I get on a spaceship and I go to the future and. And I am so, so grateful. Looking back. And the advice is take gratitude every step of the way. Probably more from the pain points than the things that seem easily good and easy to feel gratitude for. Dig for the gratitude in the toughest times, because all those are the building blocks and you've done it the right way.

Love that answer. Okay, last question. Now it's the reverse. You're going back in. Back in time 20 years.

Yeah.

What is something about young, younger Amy that you appreciate today?

I feel like younger Amy was on a mission to help people and help people connect. And I appreciate now, looking back, that that was such a driver because here in kind of the mid area of my leadership career, I want to say. I don't want to say we're like where we are in that timeline.

There's somewhere. Yeah.

More mature area of my development that has returned to be like the. The driver for me is just connect great people with great people and great things happen.

Okay, well, Amy, you've been just a treat. This has been one of my personal favorite episodes. You are.

Because I give you. You just talk to yourself for an hour.

I like to take a lot of credit that we're similar, but I don't. I look up to you. I think there's so much that you bring to the table that's powerful and it is your authenticity with your focus of making a difference in the world. And I'm confident as people are listening, they're going to want to get in touch with you for various purposes. What can you. Is there anything you can do? Is there anything you're working on that would serve them, you know, anything from a book that you're writing to, like, you know where you're working, or is there just like a piece of contact that you can give them in case they need to reach out to you on something?

Yeah, I mean, I think if you check out this episode, you'll have all of my contact information from a social media perspective. Do reach out. I would love. Like I said, I'm on a mission to just meet incredible people. And connect incredible people to other incredible people and see what happens. But, yeah, no, I'm kind of in a space where I'm in my connection phase. So if you think that you've got someone or something or very, you know, we'll say specifics like, hey, you mentioned this. I'm looking for somebody I can learn from, you know, this. Or I'm looking for this kind of a connection that's. I feel like that's the mission I'm on right now. So, you know, reach out anytime. Podcast. I'll be bringing podcasts back here in the future, so look for that.

Are you really?

Yeah, it's got to come in. It's. It's one of my most favorite things is meeting people and just learning from their experiences. I think that's how you grow.

So I am so excited because I know a little bit behind the scenes that we can't get into here about your previous experience, and I'm so excited you're doing that. The world needs your podcast.

Oh, thanks.

Well, Amy, thank you for being on the show again. Yeah, it's been such a pleasure. And Rockstars, thank you for tuning in. I am so grateful, as always. This is Will Humphreys reminding you to live with purpose, lead with love, and never give up. Until next time.