Crafting a Purpose-Driven Healthcare Network with Ben Barron

Rockstars. Thank you so much for tuning in to today's episode. Our special guest is Ben Barron. He's a physical therapist who once had a large private practice that he built before selling and going into leadership for larger companies. His current role is VP of sales at Net Health. Have you ever heard about Net Health? It's a fantastic company that has an EMR as well as other solutions for PT owners. And in this role, he has learned the power of saying no. Today's episode is focused on how we can be aligned with what we want out of our life, not just professionally, but personally, and how to say no to people. If we struggle in saying no, the results of us saying no. And we explore concepts that you've never heard of before, such as Jomo, the joy of missing out. You've probably heard of fomo. We're going to talk about the opposite of that. What happens when we start saying no? Enjoy the show.

All right, Ben, So when it comes to decision making, when is it time for people to say no to things?

I mean, I think everybody has to make those decisions on their own. But it comes down to, I think, which is a really straightforward answer, which is that can you no longer say yes to everything because you don't have the capacity and so do you? You know, let's talk about. We can talk about from a physical therapy side of things, when you're. When you don't have the ability to get a patient in two, three times a week based upon their plan of care, you can't do that. For the number of people that are knocking on your door, you have to say no. That's the easy part of the equation because you can't say yes. But who do you say no to and how do you do it? I think it's the more challenging part of that. Right. That's just one example, though.

Yeah, I love that because I think it's true that Most of our PTs in our industry, they want to help as many people as possible. I know owners who are dealing with diminishing reimbursements. They feel like they have to say yes to everything from a place of scarcity. Right. And I just wonder, like, why else do you think people in our industry struggle in saying no when it comes to just about anything?

Well, I think it's. It's twofold. One is related to business, but one's kind of who we are as people. That the reason all of us got into this world is that into the world of physical therapy is because we wanted to be helpful. We didn't do it because we thought we were going to go, you know, make millions of dollars. We didn't do it because of the status. We didn't do it because of, you know, some other kind of either commercial or egotistical reasons. We did it because we had had likely some sort of experience where we had been exposed to the profession and we saw the impact that it made on others or maybe that it had on ourselves. And so because of that, we want to do more of it. If it's good for one person, if it's good for one patient, if it's good for me when I had it, then it must be even better if I can go do it for, you know, whatever the number is today, plus one more. Right? That's our mentality, is that how can we go give more great care to people to help them? And that's. That's admirable. I mean, that's, that's why, like, physical therapists as a whole and occupational therapists and all rehab therapists, they're good people, like, because no one came to this profession for there's no ulterior motives, like, they don't exist.

Yeah, it's true. They're all. And I would say this being a PT myself, you as well. Just the idea that there's. There's this real joy that we have in helping people. So it feels wrong to turn someone away, especially if it was based on their insurance or any of those types of items. And I will tell you, from my experience, I think of pts as a personality, as a closeted type A personality, meaning we always. We're like, really good with people and we're fun and easygoing. But then, like, if you go to our closets, it's like our shirts are lined up and our colors are matched because we're just very, like, secretively type A people. So it makes it hard when we're pleasers and we're so heartfelt to say no. But from your perspective, why is it so important that we. We do? Why? You know, especially when it comes to, like, insurances. Why do you think it's so important that we learn to say no?

Let's come back to the insurance and the business side of things. But I think this drives it. But I think it starts with the fact that every person and every business has a critical mass and a capacity. Like, there are rate limiters in us as human beings as well as us in businesses. And we don't often know what those are until we hit them. But when we do like the proverbial, like I always use the analogy, the tilt lights go off and you can't, like there's no more room. And so I think once you're at that point as a human, you have to realize something has to give. And then you have to go back to your kind of values or your decision making paradigm and figure out, okay, how do I forget about what I decide to kick out to make room for something else? How do I even go about making that decision? What's most important to me? How am I making this decision for economic reasons? Am I making it based upon where I think I'm going to have the most impact? Am I doing it because I.

For some other reason that makes sense to you, you have to realize what that is and then execute on that. And in your personal life that's like, okay, I can't take on a personal example. There are a lot of really cool hobbies out there I'd love to try. I don't have time for the ones that I have and I know I already love as much time as I really want to devote to them. So I can't add something else to the mix. I have to say no. Very superficial example, but like it's a real one. Now, if we take it to business is that we are in times now that I haven't seen in my career. And so for 20 years, I haven't seen a time where there are a lot of private practices out there that can't take another patient. You're at capacity. Every, every group that I work with out there, everyone has a wait list. To me, a wait list was like anathema, right? Because that's revenue that's not coming in the door. That's human beings. I'm not helping. That's brand awareness. I'm not creating. It's me not promoting the physical therapy name. But that's because we were in a different place. And now, and now between demand for our services as well as supply of clinicians, we're in a different one. And so I think the first thing is we have to realize I have to say no to somebody. And the people I'm saying no to today, either because I'm pushing out their appointment for a month, that's, that's a no, right? Because they're going to go shop around and they're going to find something else. I'm saying no to someone today, but the way I'm saying no to them is based upon when they happen to pick up the phone and call me.

Right.

As opposed to correct. As opposed to can I make a decision that actually somehow shrinks the pool to where I can serve everybody? But I've chosen who those people are. That goes against who we are as care providers. It doesn't feel good because it feels like you're all of a sudden we're kind of in.

A national health system where we're doling out care and there's a finite amount of care that can get doled out and you have to be on some sort of list. Unfortunately for a lot of us in the industry, it's just where we are.

Yeah. And it's interesting because I know it's confusing and hard for PTs and OTs and other medical research rehab owners in making these decisions, but it is a place of power if we let it be. Like to me, as you were talking, I'm like, yeah, I remember what you're talking about. I don't remember as a PT practice owner having a wait list of patients. It was like that was my primary focus, was getting more marketing and more patients in. And so now that we have all this patient business, it really allows us to focus on other aspects of our business. Some of them have gotten harder, like recruiting. But then there's this bigger concept of like we are in a position where we can say no and do it in a way where it's intentional. I like how you said intentional. Because one way or another we're going to have to start turning people away from our practice if there's more demand than there is supply. Right?

Yeah. And Will, I think I might just jump in just for a second, not to step on your lines, but.

You, whoever's listening to this that owns the practice, you are saying no today. You might not realize it, but you're saying no. Like it's not. Whether it's not that I have to. You've already started doing it. You just haven't used your words to do it. You've used your schedule or you haven't picked up the phone when someone's called, or you haven't returned an email or a patient inquiry or things like that. You were already doing it, but you're doing it haphazardly and randomly. You're not doing it intentionally. So. So like that's where I just would challenge folks, is that we're not at the place where you're deciding to start doling out care based upon capacity and all of a sudden you're a bad human being that's making decisions for selfish or self serving reasons. The decision's already being made. Now you get to choose how to do it.

I'm so glad you jumped in because that concept of like, PTs who struggle saying no, recognizing that they're doing it by default and not doing it with the best interest for their practice and their profession in mind.

Is like wasted energy. Because in your case, let's say a PT owner is listening to you right now, Ben, and people are going, okay, so what should I say no to? If you were going to guide someone in this current market, and what they should say no to, knowing that time is not infinite, it's finite. Like, what would you advise a PT owner to start looking to say no to?

So I'm not going to be so bold as to tell people how to do it, but I will say how I would go about it. Um, and. Cause I think it's more about the process that you go through as opposed to the actual answer. Cause we're all going to make different choices. And the reason I say that is that you have to decide, like, what are your priorities? And for me as a human being and a business owner, and for my business, my practice, my employees, what are the most important things? If I'm barely scraping by, my margins aren't high, I'm not paying myself a salary that I think that I have merited through my work and reputation and all those sorts of things. Perhaps you need to make that decision from economic standpoint and you need to start making the decision. I'm going to take a hard look at some of my payer contracts and decide whether I actually can not should, whether I can take those patients anymore or those are the people that fall into the camp of people I can't serve when I'm over capacity. That's one decision. And I've been there. I remember very clearly a very specific winter where making payroll was stressful for a period of time. And that was without me taking payroll. And so.

If you're there, you have to make a decision that keeps your doors open. Great mentor of mine always led with, there is no mission without a margin, that if you're not making money, you can have all the aspirations that you want. It doesn't matter. You can't keep the lights on and the doors open. So I think that's where you have to start. If that's where you are. If, however, you're already a thriving or successful practice, where your lifestyle and. Or your income or whatever those things are that you're after are already being met, then I think you decide, okay, what brings me and my practice or my community the most benefit? Do you get the most fulfillment out of patients from a specific surgeon? Because that's where you really want to focus on your effort on upper extremity post surgical patients. I don't, I'm just, just as an example or do you want to make sure that you know what? We're doing really well and I know that a lot of practices around me aren't doing as well and the first thing they carve out are going to be payers like Medicaid. I want to still have my doors open for those folks because I can take them and that's important for me to my community, to extend access to those underserved communities. Then that's how you make that decision. So I don't think, I don't think there's a right answer, but I think it starts from what do I value? What's my current state? And then I go from there and work backwards into what the actual answer is. But you just have to start by looking in the mirror and saying I have a month wait list. That means everyone on that wait list I've already said no to.

Yeah, and I love that description because there isn't a formula. You're talking about learning how to value what matters most to yourself, to your business, into making those decisions. But I do think one thing that you said that I want to punch rock stars as you're listening is it starts with being profitable. We can't have the flexibility or freedom because profitability unlocks possibility. So there is something to be said about if we've got endless patience to work with, we're saying no by default, by just trying to be everything to everyone. So if we could help and focus on those it's individuals who could better substantiate our profit margins, then we're going to be in a position where we can do more charitably later, intentionally, but not forsaking our own health and the industries and our practices well being. Because what you said right there, Ben, I loved how it's a beautiful analogy of how we can start saying no as people. Because you're an entrepreneur's entrepreneur, Ben. You've got so many things and so much going on. You and I talked previous to this about staying away from the work life balance thing. But you're a guy who's not afraid to say no across your life and I don't want to hyper focus on that piece of it, but can you kind of share a little bit of what you've learned in your life about the power of saying no for you professionally and personally?

Yeah. I think I'll start with. I'm not going to come into this conversation and insult entrepreneurs by saying that I'm an entrepreneur's entrepreneur. I think that there is an entrepreneurial spirit buried in me somewhere. But I also know that.

I am not a guy that's going to be a startup guy ever again in my life. I mean, ever. That's a very long time. So maybe I'll be wrong, but that's not where I tend to get the most energy and joy and have the most passion. But I do like to own things.

Not in a financial way, necessarily, but own things in terms of having them within my control, my purview, my influence. And that's really important to me. And so, I mean, on the no side of things, I think some of it's just as you are afforded the opportunity to at some point. Once again, you can go back to what we were just talking about, PT owners today. Can't say no. When I owned my practice, you couldn't because you needed every one of those patients. Right. And so I think that's kind of where I am now as a person, is that I've gotten.

I've had some. I've been very fortunate and very lucky in a lot of different ways. But now I'm at a point where I really know what kind of fills my cup. And I know what I get energy from when I'm passionate about what I really enjoy doing. And I also know that I can do those things in a lot of different ways in order to pay the bills, in order to make sure that I'm taking care of my family, my children, and things like that. And so when you start at. I think, I guess I work out backwards from the same equation, which is that what are the things that I have to do? That's how I start every day. What do I have to get done? And then it's like, okay, I have to do these things now. What do I actually want to do? And so.

When you kind of frame it in a way where I have the ability to say no to things, because I know that the things that I truly, truly have to do during a week, a month, a year, whatever, they're finite. And I can fill the rest of my time and effort and use the rest of my energy to do other things, it frees you up to say no. And I think the other piece too is that we, like, you know, I'll just give a couple. I'M an anecdote guy at heart, and I have a lot of these phrases, like, stuck in my head that a lot of, like, great advisors and mentors have given me over the years. And one of them is that, you know, specific to, like, business deals, whether it's sales or buying or selling a business or whatever it is, that there are two people that win every single deal. The person that wins it and the first person to walk away because you've saved yourself the time, you saved the effort and the heartache and all that sort of stuff. And you identified, not for me, Not a good fit. I'm going to go spend my time and energy elsewhere. And so I think that's the thing you have to realize is, like, how can I. Saying no to something doesn't mean you're missing out on opportunity. It means you're spending time and effort on the things where you can win or the things that do matter or that you do value a great deal.

I really want the rockstars to hear that because when we're saying yes to something, we're saying no to something else by default. So it's again, this intentional awareness of what aligns for us. Rockstar. So what is it? The thing that fills your cup? Ben's clear over years of experience what fills his cup and what doesn't. And he still has things that he has to do that he doesn't necessarily would choose to do. Because everything in life, there's balance. But there is definitely a difference between someone who knows what fills their cup and what doesn't fill their cup. So what fills your cup as you're listening to this? What are the things that you do that afterwards give you energy, and what are the things that drain your soul? Because that's usually an indication that there's a better person you could hire to do that for you, some support you could get in learning how to do it better. But either way, it doesn't align for you. So, Ben, I think the next question is, how do you say no? Like, what would you say to someone who struggles in saying no? Is there a methodology that you use or are you just really natural at it now? Like, what does that look like?

That's a great question. I don't know that I've ever actually thought about it.

I mean, I think a lot of it starts with, like, how are you spending your time? And how much time do you have to give? Right, right. So if I know, going back to what I just said before, if I know I need to accomplish, I got These three big rocks that I have to move, these are the most important things. And this is the amount of time that I have to get it done. So going back to whether it's your schedule, your planner, or maybe it's, you know, just inherently what you know, as far as your own psychological or emotional capacity, what, whatever those things might be.

When something else comes at you, I think you have to say, can I still do the most important things and this? Or are the most important things not the most important? It might be that that thing that comes at you has to be prioritized, and that happens all day, every day to all of us. But the other option is that if I say yes to this, is it going to take my focus away from what are the most important things to me personally, to my family, to my business, to the people that depend on me, whoever that is. And then you just have to make a decision.

And I think that for those of you that are listening, that aren't necessarily the only decision maker inside of your business, you have to report or answer to other people. I think one of the most powerful things that you can say to someone who's asking you, and you know what? This could be to an owner on top too. If an employee or a vendor or physician or someone else is asking you to do something, I think it's fair and I would encourage you to say to that person, will totally get it. No problem. Here are the other four things that I'm working on or that are taking my time right now. I'm happy to help you on this fifth thing. Which of my top four should I not focus on in order to get this done?

That's brilliant.

I mean, people, people will stop asking you to do that thing if they think it's not as like, oh, oh, well, he's already, he's already doing some stuff that actually, that makes a lot of sense to me. No, I should probably find a different way to get this done. But you can do that to yourself too, right? Is that something pops up and all of a sudden there's an email in your inbox that requires attention, or this other task, or some community organization is asking you to participate in this, that or the other thing? All might be totally valid, but if you know that you're at capacity or this will take you past it, I think you have to ask yourself, then, I really want to do this. This feels like it's important, but it means something else has to come off my list. So these are the really, really important things that I identified before this request, what's not getting done or what's getting delayed so that I can reprioritize.

Yeah, I remember reading in the book Living Forward a similar concept of how to say no. In that book, by the way, it's about yearly strategic planning, which was something we were discussing prior to this call. When we fail to plan, we plan to fail. And so we were talking about how this is a stressful time of the year, typically, and what we want to focus on is the next year and how to set our priorities in place. But once we know what those priorities are, we have to start saying no to things. And what the book suggests is something very similar to what you just offered, which is a yes, no, yes mentality around telling people no. So it's like for me, for example, people will want to coach with me who don't fit my minimum criteria, which might sound cold to people, but I know who I'm meant to serve, right? So if people come to me, I'll say yes. I. You're the type of person that I do like to work with. No, unfortunately, you don't meet my minimum criteria. But yes, what you can do is go check out my podcast and receive some information for free. So that way, in your case, if someone's delegating to you or asking you to do something beyond what you can do, making sure they understand that you're willing and wanting, but you can't because of your current priorities, but you would be willing if they would make a shift for you. So that yes, no, yes mentality for a people pleaser like me is a really cool technique. I just never heard it like you said, Ben, like, saying it to myself like that was really powerful for me because I am honestly the only person I struggle saying no to at this point. I get so over my skis and I want to do so many things at the same time because especially initially, they're very exciting and you want to make a difference and you think it could make you money or an impact or something like that. So let's have you talk a little bit about when is it time to say yes to things? Because obviously saying no is the main theme of what we've talked about here in terms of honoring our priorities. But when is it appropriate to say yes to things?

Well, I mean, the simple answer is capacity related. That obviously that's a cop out of an answer because it's just so straightforward, is that if you treat patients for a living and your schedule is not full of patients, then you say yes to Patients. I mean, that just makes sense if you are a professional working inside of a non, in a non clinical role somewhere, whether that's ownership, leadership, or maybe not even inside of the four walls of a clinic anymore, that I think it's when you say yes to things, when you've evaluated the relative level of importance and you know, where they, you know, what the rank order looks like of the priorities that you're all looking, that you're looking at. And I think the last piece is that sometimes we say yes to things because we can see that they're like the beginnings of a pet project. And that's okay. It's okay to have those things. Like, you know what? I'm going to devote a little time that's not super well aligned with my ultimate priorities, but I have a little time to spare or I can make the time to do this because I know this is going to provide me with some fulfillment that's actually going to make me better during the rest of the time, right? Is that I know I'm going to focus on this community service opportunity, this personal health and wellbeing opportunity, this, I don't know, side hustle, whatever it is. And I'm not doing it because it's more important than everything else. It's because I know it's going to help me show up better for the things that are really important because I can't just do those things all day, every day and be at my best.

I love that. Rockstars. The point I want to emphasize, what Ben just said is that to emphasize a phrase a mentor told me, it's always yes until no. When we're not either clear as to what it is that we want to create or we're not sure.

We're not sure if we have space, but we want to be able to do things to help create space. What I mean by that is once we know what we stand for and where our boundaries are and what we're creating, then we go into this mode. From saying yes to lots of things to saying no to protect the thing that we know is, is going to be our main thing. I forgot which author said this. I'm sure you'll recognize this phrase, Ben, but the main thing is to keep the main thing. The main thing, but when we don't know what that main thing is. Like for me, when I sold my practice, I said yes to a lot of opportunities and then spread myself really thin. But I don't regret it because it landed on a business that I am now very Clear on. And so now what I'm doing is saying no in a way that still honors my commitments to the people that I'd started saying yes to back in those other businesses. And, and I'm grateful for that path. I think that once we're clear though, that's where I think people start to really trip up on their growth. I just watched that movie King Richard about Venus and Serena Williams.

Sure. Great movie.

Did you see it?

Yeah. Yeah.

Okay. I love the scene where he is so clear as the dad as to what the girls need and want that he instilled in them what they're worth. Going back to this concept of saying no to protect the financial means at the early stages. They came from a really poor background in Compton and they're being offered $3 million by Nike after she plays her first match as a pro at 14 years old. Venus is going to make the decision and she's like, no. And everyone's losing their minds. They're like, you're kidding. No one gets offered $3 million by Nike at 14. And then just less than a year later they got offered 15 million by Adidas. So the idea of saying yes until we're clear on something and then saying no to protect it because we know what we're worth, I think is a really valuable concept of what you're talking about there.

I think it's valuable to kind of play out the thread in your own head too. Right? Because when I was younger and earlier in my career, I thought saying no to things would lead to catastrophe. The business wasn't going to succeed if I said no to something or once I wasn't an owner of the business anymore. That if I don't say yes to everybody, you know, new opportunity, new area of responsibility. If I don't say yes to every meeting both internally and externally, like I'm, I'm not going to have a job or I'm, you know, maybe I'm not going to succeed in the way that I want. I'm not going to be able to do like you. You have that. I mean, in the world of physical therapy, a lot of us talk about that term catastrophization, right? Is that you have this small thing happen to you that you then blow out of proportion. Like, I'll take it back to when I tore my acl, that I was an adult at the time and I had a newborn and I lived on a walk up, second floor condo and I'm on the field with the toilet. That's pt. Like I knew I tore my ACL the second that it happened. It wasn't, you know, I didn't need to go get an mri. I was pretty sure what had happened. And so. But you're laying there and I'm thinking, I have to be at work seeing patients in three hours. I don't know how I'm going to get home yet to shower yet alone, get to the clinic. When I get home, I don't know how many get up the stairs. And oh, by the way, we have a newborn. My wife had a C section, and I'm supposed to be carrying the. The baby in the carrier because she does lifting restrictions for six weeks. And all that happens in 30 seconds. And then you figure it out, because all those things, you're going to be okay. In this case, there are times where it's not okay, but our brain immediately does that. And so when we do that, for every decision, if you say no to something, it's okay. The world's not going to end and we're not all going to lose our jobs and our houses aren't going to get going to foreclosure. And it's okay as long as we're. When we say those things, we just are just crystal clear about why we're saying no. What are the most important things that we always say yes to? And, you know, you make it work from there.

Yeah. And it's. It's interesting you mentioned that point of clarity, being able to empower you to say no, because the richest people in the world say no more than they say yes at their stages. Right. And I think there's something to be said about us, like how this scarcity mindset makes us to the point where we're willing to say yes to anything. For example, when I used to have my practice out in the middle of nowhere, Arizona Bend. I mean, people have to drive an hour past the valley of Phoenix to go work in a prison town with me in a very aesthetically unpleasing area for many. I literally hired off the fogged mirror role, which is if they fogged a mirror, they were alive. I would hire them if they were willing. And I had a business that reflected that kind of mentality. And so there's the power of no. I think it helps us actually sell better to our patients when we're willing to not accept a patient who comes in clearly not really committed. It helps us attract better talent if we're willing to say no. But the reason, at least from what you're saying, I think for me, at Least the reason I will say yes more than no is usually out of fear. And so your whole thing right now about not catastrophizing outcomes helps calm me in thinking, yeah, I can say no more often and it's going to be okay.

Yeah. And some of that comes from most of the people listening to this call. You've already put the work in that you've gotten to a place where you are able to say no to things. Maybe you can't say no to everything. None of us really can. But I think there's. You get to a place that I think just take a breath and actually think, what's the worst thing that happens if I say no to this? It's likely not that bad. Right. Even if you screw up, and that's something you should have said yes to, that there are very few things I truly believe in this life, that if you say no to the first time that you're, you know, your life is going to be irreparably harmed from now until the day that you no longer have it. Like, I just don't think there are that many of them out there. And so you can screw it up and you will, and it's still going to be okay. And so, I don't know, something you said just like, jogged my memory about something I was reading not too long ago. Is that, you know, and I'm not the statistician or mathematician to be able to articulate this really well, but there is a relationship between money and happiness.

Until there's not. Right? Is that because if you don't. If you don't know how you're going to keep the lights on. You know, and this could be true for a business or human being. If you don't know how you're going to keep the lights on, if you don't know how you're going to feed yourself or others, if you don't know how you're going to be able to heat yourself through a winter. Yeah. Heat a building through the winter. Like, it's hard to be really happy when you're worried about, like, just the core needs that you have. Right. Money makes a lot of that go away, those core things. And then it gets to be pretty nice. And all of a sudden things are good, but at some point it flatlines. And I think the sweet spot is trying to figure out, okay, I mean, some of the happiest, greatest people I know are those people that they don't have a ton, but they are just so content with just where they are. Their Life, their situation, how they spend their time, who they spend it with. Like, I think there's. There's so much value that people derive from that. Once you get to a place where you can, you know, be comfortable. And I. I say comfortable not in a financial standpoint, but literally physically comfortable, that, you know, you're not going to freeze to death, you're not going to. If you're in Arizona, you're not going to, you know, dehydrate in your own house and, you know, overnight, like, you know, those sorts of things. Once you're able to get to that point, that there is, you know, you do have the luxury of saying, okay, what would you. What's important to me? And once you understand that for yourself, it's super powerful, because then you can start this, then you get to actually start making. Going back to where we started, you get to start making it. The answer is no for a reason, and it's because that's not giving me what I want, whatever that what I want is.

Yeah, I love that in the sense that sometimes when we're saying yes to so much, it's maybe because we're either out of fear of consequences or fear of missing out on something else that's even better than what we have. I heard it. I was in the Philippines last week with my team, and we're talking about very humble people and so happy. The way you were describing people who are just so content. We were doing these win sessions, and this girl stood up and said, my biggest win is that I've leaned into Jomo. And I went, I'm sorry, I've never heard Jomo. She goes, well, have you heard of fomo? Fear of missing out. And I said, yeah. She goes, I've leaned into the joy of missing out out. And I thought, wow, that hit me so hard last week. I'm getting chills, because this is a woman who, by American standards, doesn't have much, but from her perspective, she has everything she needs. She has a healthy family, she has enough food for, as she told me before, her job, she didn't have enough money for food. So to your point, there's a degree of money that does correlate with happiness based on necessity, but when those basic human needs are met and opportunities are at least somewhat open, she was able to lean into that. And I just thought, man, I think so much in my world about when I'm unhappy, it's because I'm looking at what I don't have and not even being present to all that. I Have. So a lot of times, like you're saying maybe sometimes saying no is about saying yes to what I'm. That I am already enough and that I have enough.

Yeah. So I got, I have two places to go from there. Do you mind?

Of course.

So. So one of them is actually, I just, you know, I travel a lot for work, which is its own strangeness. Right. Because in some ways it's horrific and a total pain in the butt, and I don't wish it on a lot of people. But at the other side of that, you get to see some really cool places and go some places that I, you know, I wouldn't have ever thought to go. So I spent about a week in the Rockies last week. And, you know, you wake up and you look outside and I, I live in New England. I live in southern Maine. Like, I'm not far from, you know, mountains, but it's not, you know, the Rockies, you know, but I live close to the beach, which is beautiful and all those sorts of things. But you get to these other places and you wake up and we're in a drive. Like the just snow capped mountains just all around you. As, you know, as I'm driving to work, like, it's not like I was going anywhere remarkable.

But it's just like breathtaking. And I'm thinking to myself, I was like, how long does it take to live here to stop appreciating that the way I just did? And then I, then I come home and I'm like, wow, people say the same thing about here. And I, I've lost it. And I think that's part of it though, right? Is that like somehow taking a minute to actually appreciate.

What you do have? Because it's often much, much more than we are willing to, like, say out loud or recognize about how not, not how fortunate. This isn't turning into like a hashtag gratitude podcast. But, you know, there's nothing, there's nothing wrong with that.

Sure.

But I, you know, but I, but I do think that, like, you do have to put it all in perspective of, you know, that there's a lot to be really grateful for. And like, there's just so much, like all of us have been so fortunate. You know, most of us, frankly, have been very fortunate based upon the, the year and the country and the zip code we all happen to be born in. Right. A lot of it had nothing to do with any of us. And so when you start thinking about things from that perspective, it just kind of deleverages those decisions that you have to make about yes or no. It's like in the grand scheme of things, it's all right, man. It's going to be okay.

That joy of missing out, though, that's wild. I'm going to steal that one too. You made it sound like this was a young woman.

Yeah, she was a young woman. She's a virtual assistant. She makes considerably less than many Americans do. And she's never been through coaching or leadership, leadership program. She's probably never listened to a single leadership podcast. She just had the wisdom and insight to just be happy with where she is.

Yeah, but just think about, just think about that perspective, like how, like, powerful and if she wants to turn it into this, how dangerous. And I mean that in a good way. That, that, that perspective could be in that person's life. To have that, like in your early 20s or I'm just guessing on age, but like to have that in. Yeah, to have that in your early 20s. Like, man, I'm a lot older than that and I'm not there yet. I'm not either, but I think that's brilliant.

Yeah. It rocked my world. I literally was like, can we please talk about that? And I'm so glad it organically came out of our show today because it's not like you and I spent weeks preparing for this. I love being with you because we can just go back and forth on anything. But it's this idea of saying no. I think that's such a simplified way of saying to be grateful for what we have and that we are enough, that we have enough. Because like, what you just said right there at the end of your comment was like, it's from that mindset. We can make powerful decisions.

Right.

We're not in a scarcity. When we're in a scarcity mindset of I need a therapist or I need more business, I need more profits, we're going to make reactionary decisions that aren't going to be the 10,000 foot perspective that we can only obtain from a growth mindset. And a growth mindset comes from a place of what I've been taught is being content with what I already have. So then if I'm already happy and I already have enough, then what do I want and what do I want to do? Do I want to work with this person, is this employee? Am I holding onto them because I'm afraid of what will life be like if they're gone, you know, versus, like, I don't like working with them. They're not a fit. I know they're not a fit. I'm going to go make a decision to help. Let them go find another career somewhere else.

I'm going to go back to this woman again. If, if Ted Lasso were to write a book on leadership, the Jomo would be a chapter of a title. Excuse me? The title. Jomo would be the title of a chapter. Totally. I have no doubt about that whatsoever. So you should probably get her to trademark this or something before Jason Sudeikis steals it. But, but I do. I think that's. That's great. But, like, just go back to that for a second. Is that. Because I think it goes back to. Sorry, I probably took us off track a little bit. But if you go back. Yeah, if you go back to what you said, is that. How do you say, you know, when and how do you say yes to stuff? Like, if we said, you know, talked about saying no, but now, how do you say yes? What if. What if you have that Jomo attitude, The joy of missing out, the things that you say yes to, man, they're going to be badass.

Yeah, right.

Because you're not saying yes to it other than like, like, it just, it sparks something in you. Like, you're like, I. I want to spend time on that and I want to put resource into that, and I want to prioritize that over something else that's on my list. Like, if all of a sudden it's like, I'm going to say, my default is to say no in some ways, not meanly, you know, not without kindness and things like that. But, like, my default is I don't have room for anything else until I'm going to make room for something else. And it's because, like, I know I want to be part of that. And I think that's. That, you know, that's what you talked about when you, when you transitioned, you know, in the career, is that you're like, I'm just going to cast a wide net because I have the time and the space. And frankly, I probably need to because I don't have a really well formed thesis on what the next chapter is. And so I'm going to go dabble until I figure it out. And I don't know, I think that's great.

I wasn't expecting to come to this podcast and that I'm walking away with some new mantra, but I'm going to have to somehow create a picture or a wall frame or something in the house that Jomo, it's there.

I'm having the same experience Right now with you in real time, because I haven't really had a chance to chew on it. So together, since we're similar, it's fun to be in that space realizing it. Because what does joy of missing out look like to me? I'm thinking of the joy of not being afraid or being needy. Like, that's, you know, that's part of what I cling to when I'm looking for something I don't have, is I become needy around it. So it's like letting go of that means I don't have to be needy or scared. That feels like joy to me. Like, what if all I had to do was things that I love and want? And I don't think it's a perfect world where everything we do in life has to be something we absolutely love. But what if my filter for decision making was based on that? Like you said, if it's a yes, then it's a oh, yeah, and it's going to be so great. And then early on, I'll tell you this, I'm glad that you mentioned that whole early stage of my transition of selling my practice. I didn't start four companies because I was scared. I will say, down the road, it became that way. But when I took on, when I started saying yes to everything, it was because there was necessity. And I think there's a difference between neediness and necessity. There was a necessity and space for me to explore those options. And I told my wife this. I was really happy in those early days. The first from 2020-21, I was really happy, running really fast in lots of directions because I felt like I was hunting again. Like I felt on purpose. But then as overwhelm occurred, it was like this idea of, like, yes, Saying yes became painful until I found this thing that sparked something in me. And then it became. Then it was like, then it's my mistake if I keep saying yes to things, because at that point, now I'm worried about hurting feelings and, you know, all missing out on opportunities. So the Jomo of life being able to say, yeah, this is what I really care about and this pays the bills and that's enough. And not worrying about being this social media generation of having this lifestyle where I'm traveling the world all the time and all these things.

So I think that you're going to end up having to pay this young woman royalties by the time all is said and done on Joma. But, hey, good for her. I mean, she's created value for herself without even realizing it. But I was just thinking as you were talking, what does that look like in like a corporate setting or a business setting? And I think that there's like, it kind of ties back to where we started in some ways, is that, what are those things? To spin it on its head for a second, what are those things that you would actually have joy by missing out on them. So I think of like Zoom meetings at some point that we're all just all set with. And some of them are great and some of them are tremendously productive and some of them are necessary 100%. But there are other ones that, oh my Lord, if I could not be a part of this, like, this would be beautiful. Like, this would bring me joy. But to not be here. And I also think about it. Take that from a leadership standpoint. I said, how much joy would I get in not having to be a part of this task, this decision making process, this whatever else? Because I know that it's being taken care of by people that I just innately trust and value and I know they can do it without me and I don't need to get in the middle the of it. Like, there's a joy to that as well. Like, I, I could, I could go in a lot of different directions with this. This is like, this is, this might.

Be another episode where you and I go away and think about Jomo and then maybe we could even bring the young woman in on the show and kind of talk to her. And I don't know, I just think there's some real cool opportunities.

Oh, she's going to think we're crazy people if that's what we do. She's gonna be like, I just, you know, it's not that big of a deal, guys. Like, I can just already picture it. They're like, who are these middle aged dudes that are somehow taking this, like one thing that I said and like all these of a sudden, they're like my disciples.

She becomes like this goddess where we can constantly worship her. Like, you're the best. She's like, guys.

I love it. Ben, it's been so great to have you on the show. Listen, I definitely can tell already you're going to be a repeat guest. I would love to have you back. And if people wanted to get a hold of you, can you tell, please tell them, you know, we have. I'll mention what you do at the beginning in the intro, but can you just say what you currently do and how people can get ahold of you if they have any questions? On how they can learn more about you.

So I'm vice president of sales at nethealth, where we're selling technology to physical therapists throughout the country. People that want to find me, I'm not hard to find. You can certainly look me up. It's Ben Barron. Baron's got two R's on LinkedIn. It's probably an easy way to find me if we've never met before, but reach out. I'm always happy to connect. I think one of the things that I know does bring me a lot of joy is feeling like that in the position that I'm in, where I get to be Switzerland to the physical therapy industry, I want to see everybody succeed. There's no competitive bone in my body as it relates to one practice versus another. It allows me to take a lot of just pride and trying to help as many people as I can through maybe things that have to do with my job and maybe have absolutely nothing to do with it. So happy to talk to anybody that's interested.

Yeah, please. The one time I think FOMO is appropriate is fear of missing out on getting to know Ben. So please reach out to him if you have any questions about Net Health or anything that he's up to. Ben, thank you so much for being a part of our great show today.

Thanks, Phil. Happy to do it.

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