How Michael Silva Created a Profitable Niche in Physical Therapy

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Thanks for tuning in, rockstars. Do you know the solution to burnout as a business owner oftentimes is found in who you're serving? Do you guys know which patients give you energy? Think about the people you serve that, like, light you up. You know, they come in. When they leave, you feel more refreshed and. And yet you've worked on them versus the patients who've come in and drained your soul. The same is true for employees. Right. There's some that just feed your soul and those that drain it. We're talking to a coach today by the name of Michael Silva who is an expert at helping people define what their avatar or ideal client is. He is a master business owner who found his niche almost by accident by helping runners. He ended up becoming a physical therapy practice that specialized in running and started treating Olympians. And he talks about how private practice saved his career. He also is going to talk about how finding his niche not only made him more energetic and more excited about work, like, it totally increased his profits and impact. And he does that now for other people. He's going to share how he does that. I'm so excited for today's episode. Enjoy. So, Michael, what's one of the biggest mistakes that you've made and what did you learn about it?

I can only pick one.

Yeah, one of the big ones, like the hairy ones that really, really were painful.

All right. The big hairy one, I would say, is thinking, I can do this all on my own.

Being a PT owner, are you talking about.

Yeah, just starting and growing a business and thinking I knew everything or I would figure it out and I didn't need help.

I realized probably two, three years into starting the business, my wife, who's also a pt, sat me down and she's like, we need help. Get some help. I'm like, I don't need anything. And then we finally, thanks to her convincing, we hired a business coach and consultant. And they weren't as popular back then, and it was the best money I've ever invested, and it made me a better leader. It gave me systems and processes for my business. I ran better meetings. Everything about me as a business professional improved after I brought her on board for a year.

Man, I'm so glad to hear you say that, Michael Duke. I had a number of coaches in my. My journey. I still have a coach. And it's so funny because I've gotten to a point where I've recognized some successful coaches won't acknowledge that they ever needed coaching.

Oh, really?

It's the weirdest thing. Cause I. One of my, one of these really powerful coaches in my world. Like I found out later he got coaching, but he always presented it like it was like him discovering the universe. But my favorite coaches are like, you. And that's why I think you're a powerful coach, is that you're willing to say, hey, I'm a student as well as a teacher.

I still have a coach to this day. Throughout my whole career, depending on where I needed the most help, I got coaches or more further education or training because I'm not the smartest guy in the room. I've never been. And I just want to surround myself with people smarter than me. And I think that's. Yeah. Anything I've gotten in my professional career was with the help of someone.

Yeah. And I think that's great because everyone has something different that they can be really great at. And like, in your case, there's many things you help your clients with, but the thing that stands out the most to me is your ability to help them create an amazing customer experience in a very niche way. And like they say, the riches are in the niches. So you're like, you're an expert at that. I can't wait for our audience to hear about your journey. So let's just start it off with how your journey began and what led you into niching the way that you did and what the success looked like on the back end.

All right, so how much time do we have?

You have six hours.

Perfect.

I'm just kidding. It's like a 23 minutes.

Question and answer. All right, so I graduated PT school in 98. I'm not going to go through the details, but as soon as I graduated, I was fortunate. We discussed before the show back then, the market wasn't great. There was a lot of PTs in the late 90s, early 2000s that weren't getting jobs. So I was able to get a job with. Do you remember HealthSouth?

Oh, yeah, yeah.

So I was one of 200,000 employees for HealthSouth. Huge corporate healthcare. And there were some good experiences there, there were some bad. I ended up moving from Massachusetts to Rhode island with my wife who's also a pt. So then I went down to a multi site private practice which had a clientele that I wasn't really passionate about working in. So I was really starting to get discouraged. Before I knew what burnout was, I think I was experiencing it. About two to three years into my career, I actually started looking for jobs outside of the pt. World, which I knew was a warning sign. And I actually got offered a job to be a medical device salesman at one of the biggest medical device companies in the world at the time. And I came this close to taking it. And then I had a long talk with my wife and I realized I really loved being a PT and everything I put into my career thus far, I just didn't like who I was doing it with, who I was doing it for. So at that point I literally started what became foundation performance, which was the practice that I started. And I used the mantra from the field of dreams, if you build it, they will come. So I literally am like, all right, if I want, these are the type of clients I want, this is what I'm going to do. Because I don't want to work with people I'm not passionate about. It's not fair to them, it's not fair to me. I had a skill set, so I just started rolling from there and I started what became my 20 year business, grew it to, was about to open my fourth office over the 20 years. So we had three running offices. I was about to open my fourth when I decided to sell at the end of 2021. Because I just wanted to do something different and I wanted to help people in our industry in a different way. So I sold, exited successfully, stayed on with the company for a short time through the transition and then started doing my business consulting, coaching, public speaking type of work. And I still do a little work which I didn't talk about, but my practice, I call the practice the Runner built, that was my niche. So we can talk a little bit more about that. And I still do some work in the running world.

I kind of, I kind of fell into that niche. Do you want me to talk about that a little bit?

Absolutely. Let's get into the niches. And actually one thing that you have we were talking about before is that you had made mention that opening your private practice actually saved your career. So you had that. So I'd love for you to talk about that as well. Because the two main things I want the audience to learn about is how private practice is kind of seen as this negative red thing because it can be so difficult. In your case, which I believe is true for this generation of pts that are flooding out of our industry. I want them to hear your of like, hey, you know what, I started a private practice, it saved my career. But then instead of burning out in the pt, the BT owner world, you started niching into the two things. Obviously there's the runner piece. And there's Olympic influence as well, which is great because we're in the Olympics as we're filming this. So let's start with that piece where like, why would, why do you say that starting a private practice saved your career?

Maybe I'm not a good employee, I'm not sure. But I think with me, like I had a certain clientele. I've always, I've been an athlete my whole life. I wanted to work with motivated, health conscious people. I didn't have that opportunity in my first few jobs and I thought that's what this world was. All I was going to be doing is treating people who didn't want to be there, who were forced to be there by their bosses or their lawyers or their doctors and unmotivated people. And there are certain therapists for that clientele. That's not how I'm wired. So starting the private practice and literally attracting the avatar that I wanted to saved me because then I immediately became more motivated, more passionate. I was a better therapist. I was all in and I fell in. So even though I was building this sports medicine practice and really working with fitness minded people, the whole running thing fell on my lap. And my wife's going to take credit for this and I got to make sure I say that. Don't cut that one out. Let's keep.

She is in charge of your niche and your success. Totally.

She is. I mean, she forced us to get the business coach, which was the best decision I made professionally. And when I started the practice In May of 2003, I turned 30, I had my first child, which was my son. And I went, I quit my job and went fully on my own to start my own business. And I remember looking at my wife and saying, if I don't grow up now, it ain't never going to happen. So.

Let'S do this, let's do this. Time to grow up, right? So that's when it all started. And as I was in it and I was doing also, and I didn't know this was a big deal at the time, but I was doing cash based and not many people were doing cash based in 2002, 2003. So I was doing that and she was home raising our child, which was our mutual decision. She was out at the local running store. She was getting back into running. She's a big time triathlete and she was just buying a pair of sneakers at the local running store, talking to this sales kid about the business I had just started. He was a runner at a D1 college. He needed some help so he came to see me. So I did well with him, which was awesome because his close friend and training partner was a the NCAA champ at Providence College and a future.

World class runner for Ireland. So I started working with him. Now I'm an ex football player meathead. I used to weigh almost 200 pounds. Lifting heavy weights, hitting people with my head, really stupid things. But anyway, I was not the distance running guy, but I found I always liked lower extremity mechanics. I wanted motivated people. You can't get people more motivated than distance runners, in my opinion. So as my wife started this whole process and runners came in, so those were two pretty decent runners. And then after I did well with the second guy, one of his training partners just happened to be one of the fastest men in all of Europe who trained here in the United States in Rhode Island. So I started working with him, who was married to at the time a two time US Olympian. So I started working with her. So I just found myself in this niche that I was pretty successful at. I had no intention of doing it. So it's like the phrase people say, well, find what you're passionate about and you'll be successful. I became successful in a niche that I wasn't intentionally passionate for, but I became really passionate. And I grew my business, I grew myself. Every continuing education course I took, every dollar I spent to improve myself was focused on that niche. And then every decision I made with my business was focused on this niche. And then it just grew from there. And when I hired therapists, they needed to be able to treat these people. So I called it Running 101, which was my mentoring program that I did with my therapist and my staff to make sure they knew how to talk the talk, walk the walk. And we just grew and we were the business that the runner built.

Gosh, that is such a cool story. Because it wasn't like you were this passionate runner as much as you were listening to what was needed and wanted. And because you were successful at creating that, that's what created the passion. And you know, I've experienced that in my own world in different ways. But I think the important thing for the rock stars who are listening, guys, is for you to remember that, you know, sometimes we just have to get in motion to start creating some movement to even know what's needed and wanted. Like we might have an idea of what we want, but it's not until we're serving the public that we will hear what really is needed and Then when we're useful, like when we're really useful, that's when we. If we're listening, we can hear and feel where we should go. And I'm like, in your case, I wonder. I have a couple of questions. One we'll see for later, which is how do you help your clients determine that? But for now, I think would be useful, Michael, is for you to share how you made that customer experience once you found your niche with the runners. How did you make that? So customized the experience for them to make it special. You mentioned the running 101. What other things did you do?

Obviously, just hiring staff that was either open to being passionate about this clientele or they were already passionate. So as soon as we kind of. My name got out there and I think we. I don't know if we were recording when we talked about this, but I mentioned how early on my ego got in the way. Right. And this is about the time when it did, because I was the man in the running world and people were coming to see me. I was getting interviewed in magazines, I was on the news, all these different things. And I'm working with these Olympians. But I had to take myself out of that because I wanted to build a practice. I didn't want it to be all about me. So hiring the right people, asking the right questions during the interview, having a good onboarding and mentoring process to make sure that I could deliver the value I wanted to. This avatar was the first thing. And then my offices just slowly started evolving. The pictures on the wall, all of a sudden they're pictures of runners and sneakers and races and the equipment that we started bringing in. So we were the first people in the whole Northeast United States to have the Alter G. A clinic based. Alter G?

Yeah, totally.

Yeah. So the only other one was in New York City at the Hospital for Special Surgery and at, I think the Jacksonville Jaguars facility. So then Little Foundation Performance in Pawtucket, Rhode island was the third one in the Northeast. We were the first in New England. So bringing that in, which was like amazing technology. It still is, but at the time it was mind blowing. So deciding to invest in that so when people knew I had it. And the way we market it is like, if you're injured, we can keep you running because we can dial down your body weight till you're pain free. So offering things like that, bringing on. I don't get any money from mentioning these companies, by the way, but all the recovery products from Hyperice and the massage guns and Normatec boots, all those Things. Everything that we needed to help that clientele. We brought in the questionnaires. We didn't use typical health history questionnaires if we knew they were runners. That was one of our questions that my front desk would ask. Then we had other questions. We asked them, what race are you training for? How many miles a week do you run? So just starting the talk. So they knew that we were a running practice just by the conversations we were having with them.

Man. Okay, rockstars. I'm gonna recap what he said. Cause there was gold that was absolute gold. So when we were creating niches and environments for an amazing customer experience, he talked about environmental factors, like what's on the wall, what kind of messaging are we sending? He talked about the treatments themselves. And I think this is a powerful lesson, Michael, that you were talking about is this idea that when we know who we're serving, it puts us automatically at an advantage because we start ignoring the things that aren't pointing towards that client. So, like, the alter G, you're one of the first ones who were able to use it because you were looking for an application for a runner who's injured and can't run. And it becomes immediately obvious it's worth the 20. Whatever thousand it is.

It's a lot higher than $20,000. But it's.

Is it more than 20? Dude, how much are they?

At the time, the sticker price was 70.

All right, so doubling down on what you're saying, let's just say that, yeah, you're able to be courageous and make those investments when you know that the return on investment is going to be worth it, because your client's going to hear it versus getting something like that for a general population. But the other. And the other thing you said, I just want to punch really powerfully is the messaging like you were in question and surveying your clientele to always understand more about them. And when guys, when we're showing that much interest in a specific niche, they're going to hear care, feel connected. They're going to immediately understand that they're seen and heard because you're asking for their opinion. And so, Kate, you've done this. I'm guessing that's where you started, training Olympians as well, was in this niche.

Yeah. So as. I mean, the second client I had, I don't think he ever made it to the Olympics, but arguably was one of the fastest runners in the world. And then through, fortunately for me, too, I think with anyone who had any success with anything, there's a little Bit of luck to it. Fortunately for me, there's an amazing running coach based out of Providence College who gets some of the best runners in the world. Not necessarily the Americans, but he gets the best Irish and New Zealand and Australian runners to come into little Rhode island for running. So now, at the time we had arguably, or maybe it's not even an argument, but some of the best, most talented female distance runners on earth, all part of this one group. So my name was already in their ecosystem for going to see me. If they needed help, they needed to build a strengthening program. If they were hurt, I have an alter G, I've got Normatec boots. Then as treatments evolved, we were all dry needle trained. We all did really good functional movement assessments. We did grasp, we did everything that the runner needed. And when they knew they had this resource, I didn't realize how valuable it was and I didn't realize what I was doing. I just sort of just thought, this is what I need to do. I want to help these runners as best I can. So then we had, yeah, we had arguably some of the fastest females on earth in my offices, which was, I got to tell you, man, it was amazing. There's one quick funny story, if I can tell you, please. So if you can picture. So we had all these females, they're all in their 20s, distance runners. So when you look at them, you know that they're some sort of athletes. They're, you know, they're built like this. There's not an ounce of fat on them. They come floating in the gym because they're just so full of energy. And I would offer my, the gym space for them to come warm up before they would go out for their runs or do some workouts. So I'm, and I would, we had treatment tables around the outside of the gym. I remember working with one of my normal clients and she was a very healthy, probably like 49, 50 year old woman who was like a five hour marathoner raising money for a leukemia lymphoma society, but just a normal person. And I'm working with her. And then there's a group of the Olympians down there. She looks at me and she goes, am I the oldest, fattest person that you work with?

So if she was not old, nor was she fat by any sense of the word, and I hope no one's offended by that F word, but.

When you're the outlier of all these elite athletes, it just feels like, oh man, what's wrong with me?

But you know what, that's a Funny story. And I tell it a lot and I liked it and she was awesome and we laughed about it. And I said, of course not. You're just looking at this elite group. But also now it got me thinking, are we turning people away because they feel like they're going to be looked at, like they're out of shape or old because of that. So I had to make it very friendly for runners of.

All calibers, all shapes and sizes, which we did because I got involved with some of these fundraising groups and I gave free educational.

Lectures to them, injury prevention stuff. We would treat them at a discount. And these are the people who are joining a marathon to lose weight or because they had a significant other who died from cancer. And they're not elite in any sense of the word. So we welcome them in as well. So we had a nice mix. But it was funny story.

I love that story. And I love about it is you kind of just slip this in here, is that you offered your gym for them to come warm up for free in your facility. So again, you organically, I think that you were paying attention, obviously, because you kept seeing. It feels like you followed your energy. You were like, hey, I get more energy from these patients. Clearly they were more motivated patients because you kept serving them more distinctly. But it was like you kept following that path of energy of like, wow, this is more exciting for me. It's more fun for them. They're having a good time. We're all working together. So for me, I just wonder, how do you do that with your customers? When you're coaching a client, how do you help them identify their niche and their customer experience? And then at some point, can you also talk about how that equates to being more profitable as well?

Sure. So that's a tough question because some of them already have an idea of who they want to work with. So some of them want to work with. What's the term now? The barbell athletes, like the CrossFit athletes. So that's been very popular over the past 10 years, is combining the PT and the CrossFit gym and things like that. And if they don't, it's just through conversation, like, who fills your cup? In some of the paperwork I have, I'm like, who is your absolute ideal client and who is your nightmare client? They have to write it down. And it's not just, oh, this person. I'm like, no, give them a name, give them a job, create this whole story about them. So through that story, now we know who they definitely don't want to work with. So every decision we make is pointing towards a person they do want to work with. And that could be. For some people, it's workers injury. Some people really thrive of getting people back to work and they like the work hardening and that type of thing. Awesome. So then that's, that's how we're going to direct them in. Every decision we make and whether it's marketing or systems that we put in place is going to be for that population. Again, that wasn't for me. I had my population. So everything marketing, every decision I made was for that population. So just through honest conversations and for some, I haven't signed him on yet, but I think I'm going to be working with him. He's a pretty young pt, starting his own practice. He's like, I'm just taking every insurance. I'm taking everyone because I need to pay the bills. I'm like, all right, fine. I understand that pressure. And we don't want to have you lose sleep at night by not being able to pay your bills. So get him in. But through conversations and he's paying attention to who he's working with, who does he feel good after a session with, who does he dread when he looks at his schedule and he goes, oh, that person again. Because it's not fair to that person that you go, he's coming in again. So it's not fair to them. So let's find out who these people are. What do they have in common? It's kind of like an interior designer, like, why do you like this picture versus that? There's always these commonalities that you'll find and just trying to have them be observant and then finding that avatar and then creating a way to attract more of that.

Yeah, that is so cool. So through questioning and being with your clients, you help them identify almost what you did on your own, which is, you know, to identify the. The energy gain. It's like this idea of where do you find enjoyment? And it's so funny because I don't think anyone would ever think, oh, workman's comp is my. My passion.

Right.

But it's. But like, you were never a runner either, you know, so. So it's, it's. You never know.

It's. Sorry to interrupt, Will, but you gotta be open. And you said something earlier and I'm turning into an old hippie. I just cut my hair, so I was really an old hippie.

For those of you who can't see, he has hair that Goes a little bit longer. It's not super long, but you got it cut short like that.

Yeah, I literally had ponytail action going on. It was a little obnoxious, but that's okay.

Oh, I truly believe. And you said it's energy, right? What you're putting out there, just getting going. And there's another term that I've always gone by. It's instead of ready, aim, fire, it's ready, fire, aim. Just go do something. Start some momentum. Just get that person in the door, and then you can kind of get more laser focused. At least that's how I feel. So this guy who I'm like, okay, get people in the door. Over the next few months, let's kind of narrow down who you feel good about. But you got to get out there. You just got to make. You got to make something positive happen. And I truly believe when you do that, the universe is going to bring things your way and it's all going to happen.

Yeah, I love that. And it's one of my favorite coaches told me once, it's always yes until no when you're starting. So, like, for pts, I agree. I think it's incredibly useful for everyone who starts out to just be willing to accept all insurances and take all the patients. But the problem that we find in our industry is that they don't listen to the energy drain. They get into a scarcity mindset where they're constantly taking everything. And so then you find yourself, like, I've coached numerous. And there's no slamming these individuals. They're still very successful, but they will admit that 20, 30, 40 years later, they are stuck at one location because they're providing the majority of the care, they're taking all the insurances and all these things. So for us, it's always yes until no. But it's about listening to when it's time to say no. It's like in your case, when you. When you focused on the running niche, you were saying no to a workman's comp niche, you were saying no to other populations. And even when you were talking about that geriatric patient in that story, that funny story, you were still working with runners. Like it was. It was just that you were. You were making sure that your avatar's full bandwidth was being addressed. So like. So for us as professionals, I think it's. That's your coaching. I would say it would have to be one of the most financially important ones, investments to make, because we did the same thing years ago with a different coach who Wasn't in pt and that was a little bit harder since he didn't know the industry like you do. But we found our avatar. Our avatar. Our ideal client was a geriatric person from the Midwest named Susan. And we were really big on post orthopedic surgeries, hip and knee replacements.

Awesome.

But we hyper niched like you did with the help of that. And there's some good books out there. I would have killed to work with you back then because it took me a lot longer with this individual. But like, you know, our environment was like, you know, it was music from their time frame in the gym. It was all those environmental things. It's. And it's again, you do get other people outside of the niche who filter in because we're always like listening to the energy around us. But there was so much more money, which is. And I think that's the solution to overcoming burnout as an owner. Right. I'm sure you've seen that with your clients.

Yeah, absolutely. And like we use it, I know that's not my term, but the term like runner adjacent. So although we niched down into the runners, it wasn't 100% runners, but we had people that were of similar mindset, of similar energies, of similar values that came in. So same thing. Like you were saying, maybe not every single patient was a geriatric post op, but you set up the environment and you mentioned something about music. And some of these people are just going to feel good in your clinic. Not literally from the PT intervention, but just feel good about being there. And they won't even be able to put their finger on why. You know what? Because Chubby Checker was playing on the radio and that's a song from when they were young. And it just makes you feel good. Right. So it's all these little things about creating that environment which is hugely influential to how connected they feel to you, which is going to make them a better patient, which is going to make them a better payer, which is going to make them show up for their visits and now their outcomes are going to be better. It's a win, win, win, win for everyone involved by doing that.

Yeah, this is the stuff that if we get your piece of the equation right, everything else becomes eas. We might have amazing systems to ask a patient for a referral or we might have amazing systems to make sure people don't fall off the schedule. But if we're serving someone who drains us energy, who's not a fit or aligned with what we're Creating, we have to work extra hard and have minimal progress versus minimal effort and maximum output. And I love that because at the end of the day, I think we have, as an industry, we have people who are just so afraid of their low margins that they're scared to niche. Like, they're probably afraid. Like to me, if you were starting, if I was starting a new practice and I heard about your success as a runner niche, I'd be, oh, yeah, that makes sense for him. But like, holy crap, is that scary for me to start a runner niche. But that's why it's a process and you have a coach and you start by taking everything at the beginning just to see what works and what doesn't. And by the way, rockstars, if you're listening, there is nothing wrong with your avatar having a decent paying insurance or being cash pay. Right? Yeah. What are your thoughts about that?

No, I mean.

I think when you start talking about payments and making money, people almost feel bad. As clinicians, we're here to serve the public. Hell, we got to make money too. And it's okay to make money if you're providing value to people.

Yeah.

And don't take shitty paying insurances. Part of my French, you know, we cut those out. Like, know where your break even point is for every treatment slot you have and if your insurance companies are paying you less, get rid of it because you're going to be working harder for a clientele you probably don't want. Unless you want that clientele, then keep going with that, you know.

But yeah, but even if they have that, so if they do, if they do like cut, like in your case with the runner, who else was even doing it in your like part of the world? Not even your state. Like, you were so niche that if you came in and said, hey, I'm not taking Humana or whatever, you know, they would be the ones who'd be like willing to jump insurance because they're never going to get anything anywhere else. And that's why I think people who think about dropping insurances when they're general therapists treating every condition and every person, it's scary to drop an insurance because they don't know who they are.

But it's also very empowering when you do it. It's like, yeah, screw you, I'm worth more than this.

It was. But it also comes down to building the whole patient experience. So we had to offer these other services, by the way, which were all cash based because minimally the alter G would be covered if there was a diagnosis but most of the time we're using it to keep people running. Insurance is not going to pay to keep someone running. So that was cash based. Recovery services were cache based. I still do to this day slow motion video analysis which drew in tons of runners. I've done more slow motion video analysis than I'd like to even mention because runners liked it and it brought people in. So we had all these other things so I could cut these low paying insurance because I had this other revenue stream of non insurance related services where I could dictate how much we charged, I could dictate how long we spent. I was in total control and we developed these with the help of my team and they were our lifeline. They were like this extra revenue source which allowed us some breathing room and we could cut out those low paying insurances.

That's amazing guys. I will tell you rockstars, as you're listening, this is an invaluable service. I get nothing financially for saying this, just like you don't get anything from the Airdyne or whatever that company was. But for me I legitimately would say that I can validate what Michael does. And it is such a strategic move to be able to just really know who to find who we are and who we serve best. So that kind of investment is well worth it. And this is an expert in that field who's done it not just for himself but for others. And that's always my advice. Michael, when I talk about finding a coach, you gotta find someone who's either done it for themselves and or helps someone else do it and you've done both. So if people are listening and they'd like to work with you, how can they get ahold of you?

Well, my website is michaeljsilva.com so I am from New England. It's not silver and I just forgot my R because I'm from New England. I toutah I can have it Yad no, it's Michael Letter J Silva S I L V A. Also if you just look up Michael J. Silva Consulting or Michael j.silva on LinkedIn I'm somewhat involved in social media. Most of it's on LinkedIn but yeah, that's the best way to get a hold of me. And this has been fun. Your energy is amazing and you just have a good way of even just the way you kind of paraphrase and reset things like hearing it come from your mouth just sounded better coming out of your mouth and mine. So thank you.

I totally disagree, but thank you for the compliment. And I will tell you we're going to get you back on this show because I think you brought a better host out of me. Be honest, you're such a great coach that I felt the same way. I think this is a great pairing. Let's take I know that guests are going to want to hear more from you. So let's talk about offline more types of episodes and audience. As you're listening to this, what more would you like to hear about from this type of concept? Because it might be new for most of you. We're very much trained as medical professionals to treat everybody, everything, every time because otherwise you're a bad person. Now that you're hearing the value of like, the riches are in the niches and not just financial niches, mind you. We're talking about like the impact niches, like the runners. He helped think about this. The number of runners who are able to compete, who are able to improve their self esteem, their self worth, their impact and inspiration towards other potential runners was so much more dramatic, I would say impossibly more dramatic than it would if he had just been a generalist and burned out and became, you know, selling medical equipment. Like so as if you're wondering who you are or if you're wondering like what it is that you, who you can serve and really break free, give Michael a call. I'm going to have his information in the show notes. Michael, thanks again for being on the show. You've been fantastic.

Thank you Will. Right back at you.

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