How Visual Thinking Solves Business Problems with Justin Sirotin

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In today's episode, we have our guest, Justin Saroten. He is the CEO and founder of a company called Octo Octo. And he is a problem solving master. People go to his company to help solve big overarching problems. So we're going to be talking today in depth about this thing called problem mapping. This is a solution, maybe the solution to helping you resolve any and all problems in your business, as well as helping teach your team to buy into those solutions that you're not. Like creating a solution and then selling it to them. This episode is short but powerful. If you're having any sort of struggle that you're stuck in, this is the episode for you. Enjoy the show. All right, so, Justin, problem solving is a real issue in any business owner's path, whether it's entrepreneurial, for physical therapy, other healthcare, or any business owner. So, you know, let's talk about your expertise in problem solving. You have a unique approach to that. Tell us a little bit about that.

We do so just to set a little bit of a foundation. The business that we're in is a visual business. The world that I come from is a visual world. I come out of the design field, and the vast majority of the team here is coming out of the design field. And one of the things that we've started to recognize at least probably 10 years ago, is when we really started to understand this more, is that people who don't come out of the visual space have this impression that they can't visualize things. And when you visualize things, it emerges patterns that then you can use to your benefit to solve problems.

So one of the very first exercises of patterns. Patterns that you use to solve problems.

Got it exactly right. So one of the techniques that we use with our customers is a customer comes in and says, we have problem A and we will map problem A. We will just say, this is what that problem looks like if I just break it all apart. So I'll give you a really specific example.

Love that.

Customer comes in the door and says, we're trying to tell a story about a very complicated idea that we have. So think of this like a pitch deck.

We look at the pitch deck and what we do is instead of looking at the pitch deck, one slide at a time, we take the pitch deck, we put the entire pitch deck. Now we're using digital tools. We used to print them and put them on the wall, but you look at the entire pitch deck all at once. You look at the whole thing and then you move the parts of the pitch deck around to try to build the story arc that you think you have told. So you think you're telling a customer, here's my problem. Here's my solution. Here's why I'm unique. Here's what I'm asking for. Here's the next steps. That's my story that I'm trying to tell. So you take that deck, you put it on the wall, and then you move the parts around, and you very quickly see, hey, hey. You never told them X. And they can see it right away because they look at that and they go, oh, there's no slides in the problem area. And then they just go, okay, so now we need to tell that part of the story. So that visualization technique opens eyes that otherwise. Or opens up problems that you otherwise can't see because they're hidden. Usually we look at these problems in forms that don't show all of the areas where we have gaps. So we take that technique and we apply it effectively to every problem we confront, whether that's a software technology problem, or it's a spatial problem, or it's a storytelling problem.

Interesting. So mapping it out gives the entrepreneur an idea of helping break down the overwhelming components of the problem into its elements. And. And then you map that to help create solutions. And this is something you do with your clients. But you've done this in your own business world as well.

Yeah, yeah, we're actually doing it right now. So one of the things that we're working on is our business is a pretty complicated business to tell. Our story is hard to tell. We're an unusual business in the world that we live in because we live in two modes. We live with our feet planted to the ground, where we have to generate revenue for our clients through products and services that we build.

Yeah.

And then we have to have our head sort of up in the clouds for how we tell a story to a relatively broad audience, and we have to do those at the same time oftentimes.

Sure.

So telling that story becomes really challenging. So what we did is we mapped. We just made a giant map of who are we talking to? Where do they consume their information? What's the story that they're currently being told by others? What's our story? And how do we break our story up so that those people that we're trying to find find it where they are already looking, and they find it in bites that they can then consume and share? And so once you draw that out, it becomes very evident that being on a podcast like this is valuable because now there's a way that I can get to an audience with a long form that we can cut up and we can place it right in their lap where they're trying to find, where they're looking.

And that mapping exercise does wonders to align a whole team of people who work here around what we're trying to accomplish, why, and for whom. And so we use it for ourselves. We use it for our customers, and I actually use it for my kids.

That's an interesting application, you know, because as you're talking, I'm hearing everything from, you know, outpatient medical perspective. And this is. I. You know, it's. It's funny because I also coach a lot on recruiting, and I never considered it a mapping term, but it is mapping. When I take a client, I'll say, okay, who do you want to hire? Let's say recruiting is the. The. Is the problem. It's like, let's define who you want to hire and then determine from that where they go online, real life, and then what's our message to them? What's our value proposition?

Exactly.

And most. Most of our owners. Most of the owners that are listening to this are so busy, they don't even know that they can do this mapping activity because. And it is applicable to all stages of business. But tell me about how that looks with your kids.

So one of the things that I did with my kids.

Was we were trying to explain. This was years ago. We were trying to explain to them how money works in the house.

Oh, wow.

So instead of talking in abstract dollars, we just made piles of stuff, and we just said, okay, here's the pile. Here's how much stuff. Here's the money that lands at the beginning of the month.

Yeah.

This is how much of that pile goes to this. This is how much of that pile goes to this. This is how much of that pile goes to that, and this is what's left at the end.

Right.

So you asking me for whatever, and me telling you no isn't me telling you no because I don't like you. It's me telling you no because there's a set of rules that we have to run our home by. And in order for you to understand that, our home needs to run by some rules, like, I need to tell you no. And so it's very easy for a kid to understand. Hey, this started as a block of 10, and when I'm done, there's only one left. They don't have to know how many dollars are in the block. They can just see that the block's small. And then they go, oh, okay, I get it.

In educational terms, they call that providing mask. Giving someone a visual or tactile input to teach a concept. And it's so powerful because what I'm learning is mapping as a solving problem. Methodology could also be a educational tool to help people understand. So mapping at its core feels like it's about understanding any situation at its root cause or its root level.

Absolutely. And there's a theory out there that you can kind of dig into the weeds on. The theory was built in the. I think it's the 1920s by a bunch of academics, and they call it systems thinking. And so systems thinking is this idea that there's no independent action happening anywhere. All actions are connected to another action.

They're all related.

They're all connected. So if you map the interconnected actions, the interconnected attributes of whatever solution you're looking at or problem you're trying to solve, it identifies where, if you make change A, you have a consequence in area B. So use a physical therapy space as a great example.

You had, you were talking to me before this call. You were a patient.

I was patient.

Disc in your neck. So you saw this in real life?

I saw it in real life. So I was asked as a part of my physical therapy, I had to pick up. I can't remember the amount of weight, but I had to pick up two dumbbells and I had to carry them around the space the gym for a period of time. Like, I don't remember, it was 20 seconds or something like that. So it was a big clock on the wall. And the clock, there was two problems. One, the clock on the wall was in one wall. There's only one clock. So as you're walking, and now I have a neck problem. So as I'm walking, I can't turn my head to see the clock. If you just had three clocks, one on three walls, and they're all synced, you can always see it. Then you're never doing that to that patient. But the bigger problem was the path that I was walking, by definition meant I walked through other people's therapy space.

What are you doing?

And so if you mapped that, if you just drew that out and you said, okay, we need to provide this therapy, this therapy, this therapy, and that therapy. How do we make them so that they're both good for the patient and good for the caregiver so that the caregiver is not having to avoid other caregivers acts in the way that they deliver their care. And I could see there's no way around it. You're sitting in this space, and you're just looking around, and you can literally watch people walk into the same zone and then have to do something to avoid one another, simply because nobody charted this in a way that you could say, okay, well, let's have the walking path just be a walking path. And then let's have a care path be just a care path or care location, and let's not intersect those two things. And that would have plenty. This wasn't about how much space they had. This was about how they mapped the space.

Right.

And the care was great. But let me just be clear. Like, they did a wonderful job of getting my whole neck and arm operational.

Without surgery, but it could have been more efficient. And it's one of those where, like, it's so funny because this is like, a literal and metaphorical analogy of how we operate in our business. Because you have, like, in that world where you're crossing paths with other people, there's like, that moment of hesitation. You're pivoting. You're having to, like, do the dance before you move around each other. That. That causes inefficiency. You could have walked further in that amount of time. You could have gone. So, you know, this is true for any system. You know, I love this analogy of a physical therapy clinic mapping out a problem, because, again, you're using visual information to help create flow. It reminds me of McDonald's.

Yeah.

And the movie the Founder. Have you seen that movie?

I have seen that movie. Yeah, sure.

There's that scene where the McDonald's brothers, their biggest, like, invention was. Was the easy flow. The easy flow system they created where they would literally, on chalk, draw out the kitchen and they were. That's how they created fast food is like, okay, they mapped it out just like you're talking about. They mapped out the kitchen in terms of all its elements. And then they would, like, pretend like they were cooking burgers and fries. And as they were looking at the elements, they would constantly reorganize the. The different variables, the different elements of the kitchen, to where they maximized its efficiency. And that is what McDonald's is successful at. The burgers taste like they taste, but it's the. The speed that they created that. That revolutionized the. The food industry. And, yeah, it sounds like that that's what you were. You know, kind of in a similar way, the PT clinics, if they would just take a time and map out their gyms and map out how patient flows work, but then go to their billing systems, they could go to their recruiting systems, all those different systems.

Yeah. And I mean we, you know, we do this a lot with channel mapping where you're mapping the. So again, let's come back to the physical therapy and I'm not an expert in that space. So, so if I, if I miss.

Now, you're correct me.

But if you, if you think about the channel. So how do you get your message out to an audience? How do you sell things, services, products.

Whatever other components you're trying to sell as a part of your practice? If you map a business in that way where you say, okay, our revenue comes from here, here, here and here.

What are the overlapping channels that we can play in for revenue from here, here, here and here. How do we maximize the amount of money and time that we spend in order to get the most volume out of the least amount of work? Because we have channels that are overlapped. If you never map those, you're going to spend time and money voicing an idea to the same audience. Through two different campaigns, through two different strategies.

You're doubling your effort with half the impact.

That's right. And so every business, I don't care if you're a one person business or you're 10,000 people.

This act of mapping what you're doing and forcing everyone involved to confront where there's gaps, where there are opportunities for improvement, by definition means you're going to be more efficient, you're going to do it better. And it happens literally every single time. I can't. And we're not magician like we didn't make this up, it's just, you just apply it.

Well, this is what you've adapted to your business that we're sharing with the world is this idea of like mapping as an educational tool, mapping as a problem solving skill set. And I don't think people even realize it can be used to even be some, to upgrade performance of anything that's even working well. And it's, you know, for example, one, A real analogy of this is that when we, we did something similar a couple different ways in my PT business, the first that comes to mind is that we had, we were getting busier, we had more patients than we have therapists, which is a real common problem in our space because recruiting is what it is. Yeah. Very few pts relative to the industry. And so what we did was we started looking at a patient care visit and we mapped out the different components. There was a time spent talking to the Patient about connecting and reviewing. There was a warmup session, usually on a bike of some sort, treadmill that would get their heart rate going, get their tissues warmed up and then there'd be stretching, exercising, there'd be a hands on component. And what we found was, is that if we warmed people up and went straight to the manual portion of their visit and then spent the remainder of their time doing exercise, that we were able to free the therapists up front, loading their visits with the hands on so that they could spend time adjusting the plan and doing their note, which was a real bottleneck for any part of our industry. And so this dramatically improved the amount of efficiency in our business to the point where PTs were starting to go home with less notes because they broke them down. And what was really smart of me was that I didn't do it myself. I had, I had better people smarter than me. And like my clinical directors worked together to go, how can we maximize a visit? And you know, this was a touchy subject because, you know, Justin, people in our space, especially pts, they don't want to be told how to, how to treat. But when we worked with them to help them see that, like, hey, listen, the order of things, not asking you to change what you do, what we're saying is can you do it in this order? Because for you it's going to free you up, right? And then they would buy into that. And that's when we started to see some maximum gains. And so, yeah, I mean that was something like in our world that like we were doing really well at. But then when we changed that, it freed up all this time. It was a really, it's a powerful thing in that regard.

You're touching on another point that you and I didn't talk about beforehand, which is.

The act of mapping is an actual cross functional team exercise.

I see.

It's not a pretend one. It's not one where you bring team members into a room and you.

Give them the ability to buy in to.

Another activity to get them to buy into it, because you already know where you want to land.

It's not that it is an activity that by default you can't map the whole thing. No one person can map any business's entire solution set or ecosystem or flow of patients or flow of customers. So by default you need the input from the entire team. As soon as you get the input from the entire team, they now own the solution that they come up with.

And that is a. Yeah, by virtue of buying default is that because they help contribute they buy in.

They own it. They own it. And by owning it, they are much more equipped, they're better equipped to solve the problem. Whereas typically in larger organizations, even larger, even in my small company organizations, someone comes up with a, with a policy, a plan, an idea, and then they drive it through the business.

And half the people think it's dumb.

Yeah, they don't understand how he got there. They're just like, why are we doing this?

Why am I doing this? This is stupid. You clearly don't know what I do all day. But if you flip that over and you say, okay, I don't know what you do all day.

Right.

Write it down.

And then they write it down. And then everybody gets to look at it and say, okay, see, that looks to me like that thing that you do for this amount of time could happen over here. And they say, oh, yeah, it could. And then you're not the one telling somebody you're doing it wrong. They're telling themselves, I could do it differently and then it would be better. And that act.

It'S as powerful as any other part of this because you get contributions from people who know the details really, really well. And that act of mapping is a forcing mechanism to evaluate those details in a totally different way in the context of things going on around them. And then you end up with these completely different results. And it changes the way people think about.

Any problem that you're trying to solve. You just immediately see it differently when you put it up in front of everybody and they all have to look at it all at once.

Well, and I think there's something to be said about this offloading. One of the main themes of my show is to free you. I want people who are listening to learn tips and tricks that are going to take the burden of owning their business off their shoulders and put it onto a team where it's many hands is light lifting. And this is something that I'm just now realizing as we're talking that when I solve things in my business correctly, I was mapping it and didn't know it. And I think there's something so powerful about trusting the team. I think it's weird, it's almost counterintuitive, Justin, because people who are constantly worried about overburdening their team feel like if they're taking big problems in their company and asking them to help solve them is like the. They're asking for help and it's extra work, but it's actually the opposite.

Opposite.

We're building trust in our people because they See and hear us first of all transparently as human beings who don't know all the answers. And then what's really weird is that when the thing is finished, they actually seem to give us more credit for being smart enough to involve them. So, perfect example.

One situation came to mind as we were talking about this value of like leveraging more minds to solve one bigger problem. I had the courage to ask my, my team when I had about 50 employees, I had four locations in the physical therapy world. I asked them, I said, what's the worst part of working here? Yeah, what do you hate about it? What's the worst thing? And overwhelmingly from my providers, my PTs and my OTs, they would say we can't take time off. I was very generous. We gave four weeks plus, you know, halt paid days. So it was, it turned out to be five, six weeks of vacation they would have every year. But it didn't matter because they couldn't take it off because we had such limited team members. If one person left, people would drown. So I remember like not knowing what to do and feeling super overwhelmed. And this is where normally we just get stuck. Right Justin? We're like, hey, we don't know how to solve this problem. So I accidentally landed on this mapping idea. What I did was I pulled everyone together on a Tuesday night for and I provided dinner and I said, hey guys, we're going to solve the biggest problem in our company together. And I'll never forget standing there just being like super vulnerable, being like, guys, I don't know what to do. I want you guys to all have six weeks off but if you can't take it then you're going to burn out. I mean this was scary for me because I'm acknowledging that my fear that I don't want them to leave the company, which if I hadn't said this ironically, that's probably what would have happened.

Yeah.

But what was so amazing is that I started facilitating their ideas and it was a technician that said, well, what if we went to four tens? That would give all of us an extra day off. And if you're willing to pay time and a half, that might incentivize us to start covering each other's vacations. And then it bled into this idea of like. Yeah. And it was really tricky, Justin, because we were seasonal Arizona.

Right.

We had two third, like 60% of our business was done in the first four months of the year.

Right, of course.

And so we needed a whole extra one or two full time equivalent.

Yeah.

Didn't need the rest of the year.

Right, right.

And so someone suggested, why can't we go try to find a part time therapist that would, that would be full time for the first four months. And then the rest of their year, their whole job was to cover vacations.

That's a great idea.

This was. This took about two hours. Yeah. And at the end of the two hours, we had this plan. I went out and recruited and found this therapist. And I will never forget a year later having that meeting going, all right, so how's it going? And they were all like, man, Will, that was so smart of you to come up with this idea. It was. They almost gave me more credit. And I just said, guys, no, no. Like, I'm not trying to be humble here. I literally have no idea how we were going to solve that. You guys solved the problem. But here's the thing. If I had come to them, Justin, and said, hey, I've got the solution, right? We're going to do four tens and you're going to cover. They were like, no, but because they were doing it for each other. They were like, no, I'll cover one. I don't mind covering. You know, if they had a day off every. If they were doing four tens, they had one day off every week. It's like, I don't mind covering that Tuesday, you know, as long as I'm not feeling burned out. And that's exactly what they did. And they got paid time and a half, which gave them more revenue.

Yeah.

Like, it was so cool. I mean, it was, it was almost like there was no way one of us, even if I had been smart enough to come up with that idea, there was no way I could have gotten their buy in.

Yeah.

If I had just like rolled it out and taught.

That's exactly. That's a great, that's a great representation of that, of that technique. And I think some of the things that, you know, we come across in our business, which is obviously fundamental, we are fundamentally a problem solving company. That's our job is we solve. We solve problems for a living. And the idea of using, you know, we say this internally, I'm comfortable saying it publicly. That when our clients come up with the solution, when it comes out of their mouth, and all we've done is built the foundation, planted all of the seeds so that our client says the thing that is the idea. Those are the projects that go absolutely swimmingly because it's not, it's not us doing what you said. Here's the 4:10s. This is the Plan. It's not this group coming in from the outside telling you what to do. You've laid the groundwork and you've just. All you've done is created the conditions for the answer to the question to only be, to be very obvious. But you don't have to answer it yourself. You let someone else answer that question and then immediately it gets implemented. And.

There'S an art to that and there's a humbleness to that where you are willing to not always get credit for the thing, for the good idea. And I think that's where really good leaders that I've come across, especially in large corporations, CEOs that sit back and wait, put the groundwork in place and then have their team come up with the brilliant idea, and then they give them credit for that brilliant idea, are wildly more successful than those that sit in a meeting and say, okay, everybody, here's what we're going to do.

Yeah. And it retains better talent because the employees feel seen and heard. They're being developed as leaders. They're given a chance to have a voice. I remember people telling me about, like, I was like, what do you like about here? And they're like, oh, you give us. We have a voice. And I'm like, well, what does that look like? They're like, well, do you remember when you helped us solve our, our problem on taking time off? It was so like, wait a minute, I gave you guys a problem that I had no idea how to solve. You guys figured it out and now you give me more credit than I deserve. And you're saying that's one of the reasons you like it here is because I gave you my problem to solve. Like, it was so bizarre to me.

But it happens all the time. It happens. It's very common. It happens all the time. And what you experience is not, it's not out of the ordinary. And it's just about, I mean, I think the thing that you described in the way that we operate as a.

Company.

It'S cultural and it's process driven. It's not an accident. You don't stumble into this. And you can practice this. You can start with small things. So you go, I don't know all the context behind the story you told, but you got a little bit lucky because you took a big thing the first time.

Yes.

And you went for it.

The best way to act on this is start with something relatively benign.

Got it. Right.

Like, start with something that is. So I'll give you an example of something we're doing in Our company, starting last year in December, we sort of periodically get together as a team. We sort of talk about where we're headed, what we're doing. We're a pretty open company. In December, we ran a workshop, an internal workshop about designing our service. What's our service like? What's the service that our customers should get when they work with us? How can we design our service so that our service is better?

Interesting.

And we bucketed it into a bunch of places. So pre project.

Project discovery, project execution, post project, I can't remember, we had a bunch of buckets, we had a general one. And then we just, the whole team just layered in, okay, here's all the things that we can do. Here's all the touch points that we have with the customer. Then we just pulled out each one of those and we said, okay, this is one we can affect, this one we can affect. This one we can affect. And then what we started a week ago was the second follow up to the workshop was we picked three. And we picked three that we all agreed were easy.

Yeah.

And we just said, okay, let's just get those dealt with. Let's get the easy one started. So we build a little bit of a, we build a little practice to this and then we're going to layer on the harder and the harder and the harder. And then our rhythm will get better and better. And so often what I see in companies is it's the hard problems are hard for a reason.

And if you haven't got, if you don't have a practice, if you don't have a mechanism and a process and a practice to solve them and, and you tackle those first.

You are predestined to make your lives miserable and you will just stop because they're hard. It's the idea. If you think of a sports analogy and you say, okay, if I want to be a good basketball player, I'm not going to start shooting from the circle. I'm going to shoot layups first. I'm going to learn to shoot a layup. Then I'm going to shoot from the free throw line. Then I'm going to step out to the three point line. Then I'm going to stand back at the circle and I'm going to hit shots from the circle.

Got it?

You would never in your right mind go the other way.

But in business, we oftentimes start in the circle and we say, this is the thing that's going to move the needle for our business. Let's go fix it. And you haven't gotten the muscle memory of what it's like to solve on the regular.

Everyday things that are going to move, they're going to move the bar a little bit at a time. And then once you've done that a few times, then you drop the big one in the middle and you say, okay, this is really what's gonna change the business.

I love that idea that it's something you practice. It's a skill that you develop. So when, as my listeners, rock stars, as you're listening, I want you to think of something really small that you can use to practice. You know, benign was the word that Justin used. Something that might be big enough to be important to people, but not such a big deal that you're worried about getting it wrong. Right. Well, that could be something as simple as vacation coverage or, um. Well, in my case, that was a really big one. But, you know, something small in your world might be just, how do we max or take something you're already maybe doing good? You can say, how can we do it better? Because that way it doesn't come across as anything other than just the process of mapping. Yeah, Rockstars. As you're listening, maybe it's like, let's say your percentage of rival is doing really well and you're like 90%. Hey, guys, I have this vision that, you know, we're doing so good on this. Let's build on our strength. Let's figure out together what we could do to go from 90 to 95%. If we do, I'll celebrate with some sort of reward. But let's break down the components together with the front desk and the providers in the back office and the billers. Let's look at. Can we look at this from every angle? Because I believe two heads are better than one and five heads are better than two. Yeah. You get to get it. It's just like, just walk through the components of it to make this better. I love that, Justin, because building momentum around this skill in an area where maybe it's benign or somewhere they're already doing well, teaches them that muscle so that later they can come in and go, all right, here's a rock in our business, we have to move and everyone's already trained to get their side of the rock and they already know how to lift.

Yeah. Because once you've built that practice and you understand that, because the process to solve a really big problem, the process to solve a really small problem, they're actually really similar. The difference is how long it takes, how complex the Organization needs to be to support the solution.

Sure.

And sometimes how much money it costs.

Yeah. I would add one more. The emotional connection. Like the bigger the problem, the more emotional at risk there is. So I get that wanting to practice in a less emotionally viable area becomes a great way to build that muscle.

Yeah. And most people, humans are naturally resistant to change. They're naturally uncomfortable with the next thing. Even if the next thing is wildly better than the thing that they have, they're uncomfortable in just taking that step to the next thing. So if the next thing is a relatively low risk thing, you're much more likely to get people to step into it. Then if the next thing is a big risk, like, I might lose my bonus. I might lose my. Like, if we get this wrong, what happens?

Right.

And too often, you know, as I said, business owners, chief executives, chief operations officers, they look at and they can see this is what's totally screwing us up. Let's go do, let's go make that better. And they're ignoring the fact that that change, the act of that change is part of the reason why it won't be successful, not the change itself. And.

There'S techniques that. There's a lot of publications out there in this sort of space around how mapping ideas, using a systems approach to solving a problem gives you better visibility so that you don't create unintended consequences with your decisions. You create a framework that allows people to really see what the solutions could be before you act on them. And getting buy in. I actually really dislike that term, getting ownership of the solution, because the people who came up with the idea will by default own it and have patience.

If it's not the right solution. When we bring these things to the team, it automatically is inherently taught to them. We're piloting this idea because when it's our idea and it fails, we've let them down. But when it's our idea and it fails, that's a learning step. So, Justin, this has been truly a phenomenal episode. I am so grateful that we were able to have some time to talk about how to solve problems from a macro level. Because I think as we drove in, we've been able to share various examples of how it applies to medical practice owners. But beyond that, how we can do that, to educate how we're able to use this in our homes, how we can do this in our own lives. Like if it's a dietary thing, let's break down the components, let's get other people's input. Like anyone who touches that with us, like our family. I just think there's so much to be said about this, that this is exactly the type of episode I want to teach my audience, because I want people to walk away with some clarity and tools that they can immediately apply. And I know this is one of those episodes where it's like, oh, yeah, I know everyone's done this by accident from time to time.

Of course you have. Yeah.

So if people wanted to get a hold of you, Justin, how can they do that if they have questions for you? If they want to learn more about your company?

The best way to find me is just on LinkedIn. Justin Saroten is my name. I guess you just search mine. I am literally one of the very few with that name combination in the entire United States.

That's cool. So.

So that's probably the best way is you find me on LinkedIn and connect, and I talk to a lot of people about problem solving every day, all the time. So happy to. Happy to connect.

Justin, thank you again for being a guest on this show. This was truly phenomenal.

Yeah, I appreciate it. This was really. This is really fun. Thanks, guys.

Thank you for taking time to listen to today's episode. If you found today's information to be useful, could you take a minute and help me? I would love it if you could leave a podcast review in your app so that other people who are looking for this information can find it. Plus, my dream is to have the largest network of medical entrepreneurs and leaders in the world so that together, we can change healthcare to make it better for all. So, in addition, if you can think of anyone that you could send this to, not only would that mean a lot to me personally, but it would build this network so that we can make healthcare the way that we want it.